Because woodworking and the tools with which to do it has
been around for quite a while, the common belief is that
when it comes to hand tools, the tried and true designs
are the best. You can improve the materials and the
fit and finish of the design, but the design stays the
same. Hock plane irons and chippers, along with Lie-
Nielsen planes are prime examples of refinements to
classic designs. Steve Knight's woodies are a synthesis
of japanese and euro wooden plane designs - the adjust-
able throat being an innovation.
Veritas on the other hand seems to start with an almost
blank piece of paper and a good deal of knowledge about
what a specific tool is intended to do, how it does it
and how it's used to do it - theory and practice. Their
new shoulder plane (medium shoulder plane to be exact)
is a great example.
Ever tried to find a comfortable way to grip a Stanley,
Clifton or Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane? Veritas has solved
that problem - 3 ways:
- The heel is large and has nice rounded edges so it fits
the palm of your hand nicely.
- They added a swiveling "knob" that you can adjust to fit
comportably in the webbing between thumb and the hand-
accomodating lefties in thr process. The knob is smooth
where it should be smooth and knurled where you need to
grip it to lock its position.
- And then they added a finger hole through the sides of
the plane, between the "cap iron?" and the iron itself.
The hole is even beveled so there's no sharp edges - a
nice extra touch. You pick up the tool to use it and
the grip is intuitive,comfortable and it works - without
thought or effort.
They also addressed another shortcoming of the "classic"
design - iron alignment. With four, not just two, set
screws, the iron stays aligned during throat opening
adjustment. If it feels a little dull you won't
hesitate to remove it and touch up the edge because
there's no fiddling and fussing when you replace it.
Corners that need to be sharp and square are sharp
and square. Edges that are going to come in contact
with your hand while using the tool are all nicely
beveled.
They've gone after bench planes, spoke shaves, scaper
holders and sharpening guides, getting very good to
great results using innovative approaches on how to
do it. (ok the sharpening guide could use a little
refinement to square irons and bench chisels)
Veritas - "Innovation in Tools" - right on the box.
Kudos to Veritas.
charlie b
Now if I could just learn exactly how to pronounce
it - vur-EYE-tass, VUR-i-tahs - sounds latin - truth?
Bob S. wrote:
>
> So Charlie....are ya trying to tell us you got a new Veritas shoulder
> plane.......;-)
>
> Bob S.
My post wasn't intended as a "neener" but rather to provide an
example of Veritas's innovative approach to tool making. Why
no one else made these changes is a mystery.
In addition to being innovative, Veritas seems to be making
a reasonable profit while still providing a quality tool at
relatively low prices when it comes to hand planes. Their
medium shoulder plane is $139.00 US (note that there's no
.95 or .99 at the end of the price) Now granted, this plane
has a 0.70 inch wide iron - great for those 3/4 inch dados
and rabbets/rebates - and not the 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 of other
shoulder planes that go for $240-$260 (LN & Clifton 3110).
Pretty sure doubling the width doesn't account for doubling
the price.
They they include a no postage necessary feed back post card
that asks you
a) If you're satisfied with the performance of the tool,
b) if the quality of the tool met your expectations,
c) what changes would you like to see made to the tool and
d) if there are any tools you think they should develop
or if you have a problem that a new tool might solve
That tells me they want to know what I think - about their
tools and ways to improve them.
So kudos to Veritas - innovation, good price points and
a concern for their customers.
Now if they'd just come up with a clear plastic dovetail
layout/marking tool with scribed lines left, right and
center and metal edges that won't get chewed up by a marking
knife .... I've posted an illustrative image to a.b.p.w.
with a header "Dovetail Marking Gauge Idea"
(are you listening Mr. Lee?)
charlie b
charlie b notes:
>My post wasn't intended as a "neener" but rather to provide an
> example of Veritas's innovative approach to tool making. Why
> no one else made these changes is a mystery.
Check the new scraper plane. It has some extra added space over the original
Stanley and semi-replica Lie-Nielsen versions that make it far more comfortable
to use. There's actually room for your hand.
Lee Valley has an impressive operation up in Ottawa. I'd say especially in
small tool R&D, but it's pretty darned good throughout the range, with lots of
very thoughtful innovations in almost all departments. Efficiency is high,
morale appears to be high (I say appears only because I did a whirlwind tour
with Rob Lee, and as we all know, everyone smiles at the boss), the store in
Ottawa (no longer the largest) is incredible, each store is backed up by its
own warehouse stocking all the items LV carries, there are 2 machine shops for
R&D and...ah, it just goes on. Even the photography set-up is unusual,
effective and looked like a lot of fun to use, with separate studios for
digital and film.
Charlie Self
"Say what you will about the ten commandments, you must always come back to the
pleasant fact that there are only ten of them." H. L. Mencken
On 29-Nov-2003, [email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
> Lee Valley has an impressive operation up in Ottawa.[...], there are
> 2 machine shops for R&D and...ah, it just goes on. Even the photography
> set-up is unusual, effective and looked like a lot of fun to use, with
> separate studios for digital and film.
No doubt because it's run by its owners and the owners are interested in the
products it produces. If LV was purchased and run by bean-counters and
spreadsheet jockeys, these "perks" like two machine shops and studios
would disappear and they'd start churning out non-descript crap.
The Lees probably won't make as much money in the short run as the bean
counters could, but they will be there longer than bean counters would...
Fortunately for us.
Mike
I'm getting one for Christmas. I got to hold and fondle it briefly, but
am not allowed to use it until Christmas.
charlie b wrote:
> Because woodworking and the tools with which to do it has
> been around for quite a while, the common belief is that
> when it comes to hand tools, the tried and true designs
> are the best. You can improve the materials and the
> fit and finish of the design, but the design stays the
> same. Hock plane irons and chippers, along with Lie-
> Nielsen planes are prime examples of refinements to
> classic designs. Steve Knight's woodies are a synthesis
> of japanese and euro wooden plane designs - the adjust-
> able throat being an innovation.
>
> Veritas on the other hand seems to start with an almost
> blank piece of paper and a good deal of knowledge about
> what a specific tool is intended to do, how it does it
> and how it's used to do it - theory and practice. Their
> new shoulder plane (medium shoulder plane to be exact)
> is a great example.
>
> Ever tried to find a comfortable way to grip a Stanley,
> Clifton or Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane? Veritas has solved
> that problem - 3 ways:
>
> - The heel is large and has nice rounded edges so it fits
> the palm of your hand nicely.
>
> - They added a swiveling "knob" that you can adjust to fit
> comportably in the webbing between thumb and the hand-
> accomodating lefties in thr process. The knob is smooth
> where it should be smooth and knurled where you need to
> grip it to lock its position.
>
> - And then they added a finger hole through the sides of
> the plane, between the "cap iron?" and the iron itself.
> The hole is even beveled so there's no sharp edges - a
> nice extra touch. You pick up the tool to use it and
> the grip is intuitive,comfortable and it works - without
> thought or effort.
>
> They also addressed another shortcoming of the "classic"
> design - iron alignment. With four, not just two, set
> screws, the iron stays aligned during throat opening
> adjustment. If it feels a little dull you won't
> hesitate to remove it and touch up the edge because
> there's no fiddling and fussing when you replace it.
>
> Corners that need to be sharp and square are sharp
> and square. Edges that are going to come in contact
> with your hand while using the tool are all nicely
> beveled.
>
> They've gone after bench planes, spoke shaves, scaper
> holders and sharpening guides, getting very good to
> great results using innovative approaches on how to
> do it. (ok the sharpening guide could use a little
> refinement to square irons and bench chisels)
>
> Veritas - "Innovation in Tools" - right on the box.
> Kudos to Veritas.
>
> charlie b
>
> Now if I could just learn exactly how to pronounce
> it - vur-EYE-tass, VUR-i-tahs - sounds latin - truth?
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA
...........................................
Let's win this one and go home. -
George A. Custer
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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charlie b <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
<snip>
> Now if I could just learn exactly how to pronounce
> it - vur-EYE-tass, VUR-i-tahs - sounds latin - truth?
Latin for truth indeed, and pronounced we-ri-tas, with the accent on
the first syllable [the "e" of "we" is pronounced like the e of
etymology, and the "i" of "ri" is pronounced like the i of "it"]
Vale,
H
Thanks to all for your input.
Glen
"Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My number one item on my Christmas list was the LN shoulder plane, but the
> Veritas seems more economical and from what I read here and see on the LV
> website
(http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=48430)
> it has some great features. I have never used any Veritas plane, so would
> appreciate some feedback frome someone who has tried both as to which
> performs better overall.
>
> TIA
> Glen
>
>
> "charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Because woodworking and the tools with which to do it has
> > been around for quite a while, the common belief is that
> > when it comes to hand tools, the tried and true designs
> > are the best. You can improve the materials and the
> > fit and finish of the design, but the design stays the
> > same. Hock plane irons and chippers, along with Lie-
> > Nielsen planes are prime examples of refinements to
> > classic designs. Steve Knight's woodies are a synthesis
> > of japanese and euro wooden plane designs - the adjust-
> > able throat being an innovation.
> >
> > Veritas on the other hand seems to start with an almost
> > blank piece of paper and a good deal of knowledge about
> > what a specific tool is intended to do, how it does it
> > and how it's used to do it - theory and practice. Their
> > new shoulder plane (medium shoulder plane to be exact)
> > is a great example.
> >
> > Ever tried to find a comfortable way to grip a Stanley,
> > Clifton or Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane? Veritas has solved
> > that problem - 3 ways:
> >
> > - The heel is large and has nice rounded edges so it fits
> > the palm of your hand nicely.
> >
> > - They added a swiveling "knob" that you can adjust to fit
> > comportably in the webbing between thumb and the hand-
> > accomodating lefties in thr process. The knob is smooth
> > where it should be smooth and knurled where you need to
> > grip it to lock its position.
> >
> > - And then they added a finger hole through the sides of
> > the plane, between the "cap iron?" and the iron itself.
> > The hole is even beveled so there's no sharp edges - a
> > nice extra touch. You pick up the tool to use it and
> > the grip is intuitive,comfortable and it works - without
> > thought or effort.
> >
> > They also addressed another shortcoming of the "classic"
> > design - iron alignment. With four, not just two, set
> > screws, the iron stays aligned during throat opening
> > adjustment. If it feels a little dull you won't
> > hesitate to remove it and touch up the edge because
> > there's no fiddling and fussing when you replace it.
> >
> > Corners that need to be sharp and square are sharp
> > and square. Edges that are going to come in contact
> > with your hand while using the tool are all nicely
> > beveled.
> >
> > They've gone after bench planes, spoke shaves, scaper
> > holders and sharpening guides, getting very good to
> > great results using innovative approaches on how to
> > do it. (ok the sharpening guide could use a little
> > refinement to square irons and bench chisels)
> >
> > Veritas - "Innovation in Tools" - right on the box.
> > Kudos to Veritas.
> >
> > charlie b
> >
> > Now if I could just learn exactly how to pronounce
> > it - vur-EYE-tass, VUR-i-tahs - sounds latin - truth?
>
>
My number one item on my Christmas list was the LN shoulder plane, but the
Veritas seems more economical and from what I read here and see on the LV
website (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=48430)
it has some great features. I have never used any Veritas plane, so would
appreciate some feedback frome someone who has tried both as to which
performs better overall.
TIA
Glen
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Because woodworking and the tools with which to do it has
> been around for quite a while, the common belief is that
> when it comes to hand tools, the tried and true designs
> are the best. You can improve the materials and the
> fit and finish of the design, but the design stays the
> same. Hock plane irons and chippers, along with Lie-
> Nielsen planes are prime examples of refinements to
> classic designs. Steve Knight's woodies are a synthesis
> of japanese and euro wooden plane designs - the adjust-
> able throat being an innovation.
>
> Veritas on the other hand seems to start with an almost
> blank piece of paper and a good deal of knowledge about
> what a specific tool is intended to do, how it does it
> and how it's used to do it - theory and practice. Their
> new shoulder plane (medium shoulder plane to be exact)
> is a great example.
>
> Ever tried to find a comfortable way to grip a Stanley,
> Clifton or Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane? Veritas has solved
> that problem - 3 ways:
>
> - The heel is large and has nice rounded edges so it fits
> the palm of your hand nicely.
>
> - They added a swiveling "knob" that you can adjust to fit
> comportably in the webbing between thumb and the hand-
> accomodating lefties in thr process. The knob is smooth
> where it should be smooth and knurled where you need to
> grip it to lock its position.
>
> - And then they added a finger hole through the sides of
> the plane, between the "cap iron?" and the iron itself.
> The hole is even beveled so there's no sharp edges - a
> nice extra touch. You pick up the tool to use it and
> the grip is intuitive,comfortable and it works - without
> thought or effort.
>
> They also addressed another shortcoming of the "classic"
> design - iron alignment. With four, not just two, set
> screws, the iron stays aligned during throat opening
> adjustment. If it feels a little dull you won't
> hesitate to remove it and touch up the edge because
> there's no fiddling and fussing when you replace it.
>
> Corners that need to be sharp and square are sharp
> and square. Edges that are going to come in contact
> with your hand while using the tool are all nicely
> beveled.
>
> They've gone after bench planes, spoke shaves, scaper
> holders and sharpening guides, getting very good to
> great results using innovative approaches on how to
> do it. (ok the sharpening guide could use a little
> refinement to square irons and bench chisels)
>
> Veritas - "Innovation in Tools" - right on the box.
> Kudos to Veritas.
>
> charlie b
>
> Now if I could just learn exactly how to pronounce
> it - vur-EYE-tass, VUR-i-tahs - sounds latin - truth?
Charlie, do you find you need that wide of a blade often? I started
thinking about where I would use a shoulder plane and can't think of a
place yet that I would have needed more than 3/4" blade. Not that I
wouldn't but that I havent yet.
BRuce
Charlie Self wrote:
> Glen writes:
>
>
>>My number one item on my Christmas list was the LN shoulder plane, but the
>>Veritas seems more economical and from what I read here and see on the LV
>>website (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=48430)
>>it has some great features. I have never used any Veritas plane, so would
>>appreciate some feedback frome someone who has tried both as to which
>>performs better overall.
>>
>
>
> I have the Lee Valley, but have not tried the Lie-Nielsen (does differentiating
> those names verbally give anyone else a headache). In fact, I've tried the LV
> for just a few strokes. It's smooth and easy to handle. I've used the daylights
> out of a Lee Valley 4-1/2, though, and find it an absolute delight. First tried
> it right out of the box, and was startled by how well it cut.
>
> I don't think you can lose with either brand. The LV is said to be more
> comfortable to use. Almost got that bassackwards. The LN version of Record's
> 073 has a 1-1/4" wide blade, while the LN is 3/4" or so. I'd say a lot depends
> on how wide the cuts you need to make are, while keeping in mind the LN is $225
> and the LV is $179.
>
> My specific note is that I'm far more likely to be cleaning up a 3/4" dado,
> which the slightly undersized (on purpose) LN lets me do than I am a 1-1/4"
> dado, but both are equally useful for tenon clean-up and rabbet clean-up.
>
> Dunno if that's a help, but...good luck, and enjoy, which you will, with either
> plane.
>
> Charlie Self
>
> "Say what you will about the ten commandments, you must always come back to the
> pleasant fact that there are only ten of them." H. L. Mencken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
---
BRuce
BRuce asks:
>
>Charlie, do you find you need that wide of a blade often? I started
>thinking about where I would use a shoulder plane and can't think of a
>place yet that I would have needed more than 3/4" blade. Not that I
>wouldn't but that I havent yet.
>
As I said, I think the 3/4" would be more useful for things I do most..cleaning
dados. The wider blade would speed up tenon clean-up on some jobs, though.
And I mixed up LN and LV there. I knew that was going to happen. Probably would
have happened if I'd spelled them both out.
Charlie Self
"Say what you will about the ten commandments, you must always come back to the
pleasant fact that there are only ten of them." H. L. Mencken
Glen writes:
>My number one item on my Christmas list was the LN shoulder plane, but the
>Veritas seems more economical and from what I read here and see on the LV
>website (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=48430)
>it has some great features. I have never used any Veritas plane, so would
>appreciate some feedback frome someone who has tried both as to which
>performs better overall.
>
I have the Lee Valley, but have not tried the Lie-Nielsen (does differentiating
those names verbally give anyone else a headache). In fact, I've tried the LV
for just a few strokes. It's smooth and easy to handle. I've used the daylights
out of a Lee Valley 4-1/2, though, and find it an absolute delight. First tried
it right out of the box, and was startled by how well it cut.
I don't think you can lose with either brand. The LV is said to be more
comfortable to use. Almost got that bassackwards. The LN version of Record's
073 has a 1-1/4" wide blade, while the LN is 3/4" or so. I'd say a lot depends
on how wide the cuts you need to make are, while keeping in mind the LN is $225
and the LV is $179.
My specific note is that I'm far more likely to be cleaning up a 3/4" dado,
which the slightly undersized (on purpose) LN lets me do than I am a 1-1/4"
dado, but both are equally useful for tenon clean-up and rabbet clean-up.
Dunno if that's a help, but...good luck, and enjoy, which you will, with either
plane.
Charlie Self
"Say what you will about the ten commandments, you must always come back to the
pleasant fact that there are only ten of them." H. L. Mencken
>
> Charlie, do you find you need that wide of a blade often? I started
> thinking about where I would use a shoulder plane and can't think of a
> place yet that I would have needed more than 3/4" blade. Not that I
> wouldn't but that I havent yet.
>
> BRuce
>
To correct Mr. Self, the Veritas Medium Shoulder Plane has a 0.70 inch
iron and not 3/4s. The body of the plane being slightly narrower to
have a few thousandths so it gets into corners. The slightly narrower
than 3/4s lets it get into routed "3/4" plywood dadoes (the ply router
bits are a tad smaller than 3/4s to fit "3/4" ply which is actually
less than 3/4s.
If the shoulder plane was designed to finish up the shoulders of
tenons,
specifically the bottoms of the shoulders, 0.70 inches of iron is more
than enough - unless you're doing timeber framing. (or workbench legs
which is what prompted acquisition of a shoulder plane) I use a block
plane or the LN rabbet block plane on the faces of the tenons.
Am doing more solid wood furniture and finding that more and more good
hand tools are necessary (or I could just be using that as an excuse
to get more toys). I'm finding that power tools, while saving a lot
of work, feel like machines. Chisels, planes, marking knives, hand
saws - these feel like tools. Machines remove wood - but with very
little "feel". With hand tools you can actually feel what the tool
is doing to the wood. The wood talks to the tool and the tool passes
what it said on to me both with sound and feel.
(ramble mode off)
charlie b
<snip>
> I have the Lee Valley, but have not tried the Lie-Nielsen (does
differentiating
> those names verbally give anyone else a headache). In fact, I've tried the
LV
> for just a few strokes. It's smooth and easy to handle. I've used the
daylights
> out of a Lee Valley 4-1/2, though, and find it an absolute delight. First
tried
> it right out of the box, and was startled by how well it cut.
>
> I don't think you can lose with either brand. The LV is said to be more
> comfortable to use. Almost got that bassackwards. The LN version of
Record's
> 073 has a 1-1/4" wide blade, while the LN is 3/4" or so. I'd say a lot
depends
> on how wide the cuts you need to make are, while keeping in mind the LN is
$225
> and the LV is $179.
>
<snip>
Hi Charlie -
Small correction - the LV plane is $139 (not $179 - that's the CDN $
price)....
Apples to apples....and all that....
Cheers -
Rob
Robin Lee responds:
>Hi Charlie -
>
>Small correction - the LV plane is $139 (not $179 - that's the CDN $
>price)....
>
>Apples to apples....and all that....
Sorry about that. Unfolded the wrong flag, I guess.
Charlie Self
"Say what you will about the ten commandments, you must always come back to the
pleasant fact that there are only ten of them." H. L. Mencken
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob S. wrote:
> >
> > So Charlie....are ya trying to tell us you got a new Veritas shoulder
> > plane.......;-)
> >
> > Bob S.
>
> My post wasn't intended as a "neener" but rather to provide an
> example of Veritas's innovative approach to tool making. Why
> no one else made these changes is a mystery.
>
> In addition to being innovative, Veritas seems to be making
> a reasonable profit while still providing a quality tool at
> relatively low prices when it comes to hand planes. Their
> medium shoulder plane is $139.00 US (note that there's no
> .95 or .99 at the end of the price) Now granted, this plane
> has a 0.70 inch wide iron - great for those 3/4 inch dados
> and rabbets/rebates - and not the 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 of other
> shoulder planes that go for $240-$260 (LN & Clifton 3110).
> Pretty sure doubling the width doesn't account for doubling
> the price.
>
> They they include a no postage necessary feed back post card
> that asks you
> a) If you're satisfied with the performance of the tool,
> b) if the quality of the tool met your expectations,
> c) what changes would you like to see made to the tool and
> d) if there are any tools you think they should develop
> or if you have a problem that a new tool might solve
> That tells me they want to know what I think - about their
> tools and ways to improve them.
>
> So kudos to Veritas - innovation, good price points and
> a concern for their customers.
>
> Now if they'd just come up with a clear plastic dovetail
> layout/marking tool with scribed lines left, right and
> center and metal edges that won't get chewed up by a marking
> knife .... I've posted an illustrative image to a.b.p.w.
> with a header "Dovetail Marking Gauge Idea"
> (are you listening Mr. Lee?)
>
> charlie b
I'm always listening.... ;)
Thanks for the kind comments - I'm copying this thread to our desing
group...
Cheers -
Rob Lee
charlie b wrote:
I agree with your sentiments. I really like Lee Valley, and I only have one
tiny little thing of theirs so far. Never have I seen so many things in a
catalog that make me say "wow, that's a good idea" and then "patented" at
the bottom. I'm an inventorly sort of guy myself, and that wins a lot of
points with me.
> Now if I could just learn exactly how to pronounce
> it - vur-EYE-tass, VUR-i-tahs - sounds latin - truth?
It's Latin for "truth." Oh, you said that. Right. Well, just how to
pronounce it could be debated depending on whether you prefer classical or
more modern pronunciation, but unless them Kanukistanis are significantly
different from their southeren neighbors, they're going to butcher it the
way all English speakes are wont to do with borrowed words. It's probably
prounounced VERitas. ver from "very" without the Y on it, it like your
garden variety "it", tas, sounding sort of like "toss" with more of a short
A sound.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Robin Lee wrote:
> Thanks for the kind comments - I'm copying this thread to our desing
> group...
So you have a desing group eh? That's why nobody goes carolling anymore,
isn't it?
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/