Cool bit for Phillips screws

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:13:19 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/12/2015 12:17 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:42:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>>>>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>>>>> in most applications.
>>>>
>>>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
>>>> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
>>>> appearance.
>>>>
>>>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>>>> In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
>>>> with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
>>>> fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
>>>> Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>> I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
>>> hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.
>>>
>>> FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
>>> Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
>>> about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
>>> head was eventually developed/adopted.
>>
>> Don't know if I buy that. The Robertson screw was patented in 1911
>> and the Phillips in 1936. The Robertson patents would have expired in
>> '29.
>
>Saw it on the History channel, documentary on either Ford or the
>Robertson screw. Probably the later. That was Henry Ford that wanted
>the rights for the screw in the very early years.

Bon jour!

>>
>>> And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
>>> far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.
>>>
>> I think Ford uses more Torx than Phillips (particularly any larger
>> bolts because Phillips' intentional cam-out is a problem) and I don't
>> remember ever seeing a square-recessed head on any of my cars.
>>
>There is more than cars being assembled. But mostly what I was
>referring to was the availability to the consumer. For most other
>household products a Phillips screw is the norm.

Household, sure, they're cheaper. I'm surprised that Phillips
displaced slotted.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,=20
> [email protected] says...
> >=20
> > On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> > > Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> > >=20
> > > > I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks=
=20
> > > > better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the =
best=20
> > > > in most applications.
> > >=20
> > > For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> > > That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> > > appearance.
> > >=20
> > > The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
> >=20
> > The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.=20
> >=20
> > I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For exa=
mple, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct star=
ting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blac=
ktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, =
anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
> >=20
> > Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that=
is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have T=
orx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips h=
eads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-do=
wn.
> >=20
> > I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to r=
emove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-ch=
unk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound. =
=20
> >=20
> > Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expen=
se report to the Derby.
>=20
> Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10=20
> buck box of bits that fit just about everything. =20

See my response to krw.

It's got nothing to do with the availability of bits at any given store, an=
d it's got nothing to do the fact that the boxes of certain "specialty" scr=
ews come with a bit to fit.

If you want proof, try this experiment...

Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your t=
own:

http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/rally-rac=
e-schedule.aspx

Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 =
- 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. T=
he more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd b=
e very surprised if more than 10% of them did.=20

That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would=
be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyo=
ne that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to=
get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by usi=
ng screws that only a few of us can drive.

> I'm sorry, but "don't=20
> have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that=20
> they bought them in a store.

No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed t=
o be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby car=
s are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.

http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 08:42:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>>> in most applications.
>>
>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
>> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
>> appearance.
>>
>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>> In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
>> with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
>> fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
>> Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.
>>
>> John
>>
>I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
>hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.
>
>FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
> Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
>about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
>head was eventually developed/adopted.

Don't know if I buy that. The Robertson screw was patented in 1911
and the Phillips in 1936. The Robertson patents would have expired in
'29.

>And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
>far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.
>
I think Ford uses more Torx than Phillips (particularly any larger
bolts because Phillips' intentional cam-out is a problem) and I don't
remember ever seeing a square-recessed head on any of my cars.

On 8/11/2015 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>> in most applications.
>
> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> appearance.
>
> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
> In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
> with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
> fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
> Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.
>
> John
>
I think it is probably 10 of thousands of screws. I can easily drive
hundreds and I am not any thing near a production environment.

FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
head was eventually developed/adopted.
And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

On 8/11/2015 2:57 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
> "Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>
> just another gimmick
>


Yeah, just like those SawStop guys.

On 8/11/2015 3:00 PM, G. Ross wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>>>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>>>> in most applications.
>>>
>>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
>>> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
>>> appearance.
>>>
>>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>>> In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
>>> with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
>>> fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
>>> Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>> They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)
>>
>>
> I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used. The
> screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted to
> replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close inspection they
> were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they confirmed they were
> "double square" screws. They suggested using a #2 square drive bit. It
> fit perfectly.
>

Keep in mind some Torx screws are "security Torx. They have a small
round pin in the middle of the star in the screw head. Those require a
torx driver with a hole in the center of the end of the bit.

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]=
=20
> says...
> >=20
> > On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >=20
> > > If you want proof, try this experiment...
> > >
> > > Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to =
your town:
> > >
> > > http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/ral=
ly-race-schedule.aspx
> > >
> > > Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any =
of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx =
bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but=
I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.
> > >
> > > That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there=
would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that =
everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard eno=
ugh to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool =
by using screws that only a few of us can drive.
> > >
> >=20
> > Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny=20
> > Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.
> >=20
> >=20
> > >> I'm sorry, but "don't
> > >> have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is th=
at
> > >> they bought them in a store.
> > >
> > > No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws all=
owed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Der=
by cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.
> > >
> > > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
> > > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
> > > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html
> > >
> >=20
> > I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.=20
> > I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a=20
> > different head could be a competitive advantage.
>=20
> It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's what. =
=20
> The key is:
> "A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per the most current=20
> construction plans published by the International Soap Box Derby, Inc."
>=20
> Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed when=
=20
> assembling your car. The hardware provided in the International Soap Box=
=20
> Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and assembled as shown in the=20
> latest rules, plans and specifications. No changes, modifications or=20
> additions, other than the inclusion or omission of specified optional=20
> parts, shall be made to the car."
>=20
> In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy a=20
> box of parts and screw it together.

Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution, torque sett=
ings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own wheel bearing lu=
brication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the floorboard, etc. There's=
a bit more to it than "just screw it together and send it down the hill".

Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is key, unde=
rstanding the characteristics of each specific track is extremely important=
and then driving according to those characteristics probably accounts for =
85-90% of the results. Since races can be won or lost by a thousandth of a =
second, every detail matters.

Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate Speed=
Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful car. Lucky fo=
r me, my son won the World Championship when modifications were still allow=
ed in the Masters Division. We built our own axle mounts, steering and brak=
e mechanisms, wrapped the entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, as =
the skill level (and money and time commitment) to make these types of modi=
fications dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost disappe=
ared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you didn't win. Th=
at's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough decision to go with unm=
odified kits in all 3 divisions.

That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of stuff=
in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's because of=
those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid to pick up a too=
l and say "I can fix that".

On 8/12/2015 4:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>>>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>>>> in most applications.
>>>
>>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
>>> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
>>> appearance.
>>>
>>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>>
>> The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.
>>
>> I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
>>
>> Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.
>>
>> I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.
>>
>> Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.
>
> Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
> buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but "don't
> have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
> they bought them in a store.
>

This is true but first you have to be aware of the existence of these
type items.

On 8/12/2015 4:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:0s6dnb48v4f-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
>>> Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
>>> about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
>>> head was eventually developed/adopted.
>>
>> I've seen about a dozen variations on the "history of the
>> phillips screw", but what I beleive to be the true one is
>> that Phillips invented it for assembling aluminum aircraft
>> hulls, because it was too easy to strip out the hole in the
>> soft aluminum sheets. By the time he'd figured out the
>> design and manufacturing, aircraft were switching to rivitted
>> assembly, but someone at GM saw the screw and thought it
>> would work well in auto assembly, since the same problem of
>> stripped screwholes existed with sheet steel auto bodies.
>>
>>> And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
>>> far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.
>>
>> To a degree that's intentional. At my prior employer, we
>> used phillips for screws the customer was expected to want
>> to undo, and Torx for ones internally he wasn't susposed
>> to mess with. So we'd have 4 or 8 externally visible
>> phillips heads, and a couple of dozen Torx inside.
>
> My Corvette had four very visible Torx screws that were specifically
> intended to be "messed with" by the owner--there was even a wrench
> provided. They were the ones that held the removable roof panel.
>


The silver retainer around the sealed beams/headlights, part of the
headlight capsule, used Torx starting in 1975 with GM. It was a welcome
change as the Phillips head screws were often rusted and did not want to
come out.

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 11:59:34 AM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/13/15 6:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> In article <[email protected]>,
> >> [email protected] says...
> >>>
> >>> On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If you want proof, try this experiment...
> >>>>
> >>>> Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally
> >>>> race to your town:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/ra=
lly-race-schedule.aspx
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of=
=20
> 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx=
=20
> bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box,=
=20
> but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.
> >>>>
> >>>> That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips,
> >>>> there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and
> >>>> that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to
> >>>> help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the
> >>>> last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that
> >>>> only a few of us can drive.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come
> >>> Johnny Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> I'm sorry, but "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason
> >>>>> they have Phillips bit is that they bought them in a store.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only
> >>>> screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils
> >>>> of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link,
> >>>> any link.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
> >>>> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
> >>>> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a
> >>> requirement. I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists.
> >>> I suppose a different head could be a competitive advantage.
> >>
> >> It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's
> >> what. The key is: "A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per
> >> the most current construction plans published by the International
> >> Soap Box Derby, Inc."
> >>
> >> Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed
> >> when assembling your car. The hardware provided in the
> >> International Soap Box Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and
> >> assembled as shown in the latest rules, plans and specifications.
> >> No changes, modifications or additions, other than the inclusion or
> >> omission of specified optional parts, shall be made to the car."
> >>
> >> In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy
> >> a box of parts and screw it together.
> >
> > Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution,
> > torque settings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own
> > wheel bearing lubrication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the
> > floorboard, etc. There's a bit more to it than "just screw it
> > together and send it down the hill".
> >
> > Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is
> > key, understanding the characteristics of each specific track is
> > extremely important and then driving according to those
> > characteristics probably accounts for 85-90% of the results. Since
> > races can be won or lost by a thousandth of a second, every detail
> > matters.
> >
> > Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate
> > Speed Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful
> > car. Lucky for me, my son won the World Championship when
> > modifications were still allowed in the Masters Division. We built
> > our own axle mounts, steering and brake mechanisms, wrapped the
> > entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, as the skill level (and
> > money and time commitment) to make these types of modifications
> > dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost
> > disappeared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you
> > didn't win. That's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough
> > decision to go with unmodified kits in all 3 divisions.
> >
> > That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of
> > stuff in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's
> > because of those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid
> > to pick up a tool and say "I can fix that".
> >
>=20
> And all those great memories of working with Dad!
> I was born about 4 miles from the international Soap Box Derby track in=
=20
> Akron.
> Hey, you weren't the one who put the magnets in the nose of your car to=
=20
> get a budge from the start gate were you? :-p
>=20
It's amazing what some people will do to help their driver's win. The worst=
part was making the kid an active participant in the illegal activity. The=
magnet scandal cost the national Derby organization a number of corporate =
sponsors and caused a number of local city organizations to suspend racing =
for quite a few years.

People still cheat today, but the "standardization" of the kits and savvy r=
ace directors make it a lot tougher.

One favorite trick used to involve the wheels. Each heat of a Derby race co=
nsists of 2 phases. The overall time differential determines the winner of =
the heat. Drivers swap lanes after each phase, which takes the lane differe=
nces out of the equation. The wheels are also swapped between phases so tha=
t the wheels are taken out of the equation.

One trick was to bring a really bad wheel to the race and then set up your =
car to essentially "ignore" that wheel, almost riding on 3 wheels. Then whe=
n you swap all 4 wheels to the competitors car, they are impacted by the cr=
appy wheel since their car was set up to use all 4. The theory is that even=
though you are impacted slightly by not really using that 4th wheel when i=
t is on your car, your opponent is impacted even more because of the drag i=
ntroduced by the bad wheel.

Race directors have come up with various wheel swap configurations that pre=
vent the cheaters from knowing which spindle they should "mal-adjust" to co=
mpensate for a bad wheel, so that trick has been all but eliminated.

There are other cheating methods, but it's getting much better. Just like e=
very other sport or competition, there will always be cheaters. When we rac=
ed, we pushed the rules to the very limit, but we never cheated. We worked =
with a team of 3 other families and we all have rules that are nicknamed af=
ter us because we pushed the existing rules just far enough that the inspec=
tors had to allow what we did the first time they saw it. The things we tri=
ed weren't illegal, we just interpreted the rules differently based on the =
way they were worded. The next racing season we'd find that a rule was adde=
d or modified to eliminate the "grey area" that we often played in. In some=
cases what we did became part of the plans, in other cases it was specific=
ally dis-allowed. Those were some fun times.

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 7:27:23 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 4:53:21 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]=
t=20
> > says...
> > >=20
> > > On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > >=20
> > > > If you want proof, try this experiment...
> > > >
> > > > Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race t=
o your town:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/r=
ally-race-schedule.aspx
> > > >
> > > > Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to an=
y of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Tor=
x bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, b=
ut I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.
> > > >
> > > > That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, the=
re would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes tha=
t everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard e=
nough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the poo=
l by using screws that only a few of us can drive.
> > > >
> > >=20
> > > Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny=20
> > > Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > >> I'm sorry, but "don't
> > > >> have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is =
that
> > > >> they bought them in a store.
> > > >
> > > > No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws a=
llowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box D=
erby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
> > > > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
> > > > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html
> > > >
> > >=20
> > > I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.=
=20
> > > I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a=20
> > > different head could be a competitive advantage.
> >=20
> > It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's what.=
=20
> > The key is:
> > "A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per the most current=20
> > construction plans published by the International Soap Box Derby, Inc."
> >=20
> > Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed whe=
n=20
> > assembling your car. The hardware provided in the International Soap Bo=
x=20
> > Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and assembled as shown in the=20
> > latest rules, plans and specifications. No changes, modifications or=20
> > additions, other than the inclusion or omission of specified optional=
=20
> > parts, shall be made to the car."
> >=20
> > In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy a=
=20
> > box of parts and screw it together.
>=20
> Screw it together and then choose your own weight distribution, torque se=
ttings, spindle toe and camber, etc. You can choose your own wheel bearing =
lubrication, you need to eliminate cross bind in the floorboard, etc. There=
's a bit more to it than "just screw it together and send it down the hill"=
.
>=20
> Similar to Nascar, the cars are the same, but the fine tuning is key, un=
derstanding the characteristics of each specific track is extremely importa=
nt and then driving according to those characteristics probably accounts fo=
r 85-90% of the results. Since races can be won or lost by a thousandth of =
a second, every detail matters.
>=20
> Granted, the design phase has been eliminated (except in the Ultimate Spe=
ed Division) but it still takes some work to build a successful car. Lucky =
for me, my son won the World Championship when modifications were still all=
owed in the Masters Division. We built our own axle mounts, steering and br=
ake mechanisms, wrapped the entire car in fiberglass, etc. Unfortunately, a=
s the skill level (and money and time commitment) to make these types of mo=
difications dwindled, the division got smaller and smaller and almost disap=
peared. If you didn't make these modifications to the kit, you didn't win. =
That's basically when the AASBD had to make the tough decision to go with u=
nmodified kits in all 3 divisions.
>=20
> That part is a shame, because my son and I learned a heck of a lot of stu=
ff in the 3 seasons it took us to win the World Championship. It's because =
of those hundreds of hours of work that my son is not afraid to pick up a t=
ool and say "I can fix that".

Further to my comment on the elimination of the modifications, I should hav=
e pointed out the upside. Had the AASBD not eliminated the modifications to=
the kits, hundreds of kids would not have been able to continue racing, in=
cluding my daughter. While some of us would still have put in the time/ener=
gy/money that it takes to build a competitive Masters car, the fact remains=
that the division was in danger of disappearing. By eliminating the modifi=
cations, the Masters division began to grow again and kids can keep on raci=
ng once they go as far as they can in the Stock and Super Stock divisions.=
=20

Due to the changes in the Masters division - which definitely helped it sur=
vive - my daughter raced for 2 more years and earned a chance to compete in=
the World Championship in Akron, OH both years. Say what you will about th=
e changes, those 2 successful years were a lot of fun for my family.

On 08/12/2015 02:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
> with a bit in the box.

Same here. And there's bins full of several sizes of bits at the
hardware store too. I've got bags full of Phillips screws that I'll
never use because the Torx (and Roberston) are so much nicer.

There's getting to be less and less of a reason not to make the switch...

...Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
"In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car."
- Lawrence Summers

krw <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Household, sure, they're cheaper. I'm surprised that Phillips
> displaced slotted.
>

Why? Those slotted screws are a pain. It may be a case of right place,
right time, but I'm not surprised Phillips displaced slotted. Using them
is MUCH easier. Also, Phillips has the unfortunate ability of being
compatible with some slotted screwdrivers, so you wouldn't necessarily have
to buy a new screwdriver to use the new screws.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
> common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
> not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
> Phillips/Square drive head.
>

Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
slipping and square almost working.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Yes, the deck screw company. It looked like an over sized Phillips
> head, blunt on the tip.
>
> And now Bosch makes this.
>
> http://www.mcfeelys.com/2-x-2-in-combo-driver-bit-qty-1-9xgu1.html
>

Interesting. Anyone used them yet, or do I have to be the guinea pig?

I've got a couple boxes of those Kreg combo head shiny screws, so plenty of
junk heads to test the bit on.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 8/12/2015 8:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>>> in most applications.
>>
>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
>> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
>> appearance.
>>
>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>
> The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.
>
> I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
>
> Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.
>
> I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.
>
> Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.




Some times the use of an impact drive can successfully and easily remove
a damaged Philips screw. I recall remodeling a neighbors kitchen. The
previous owner used some kind of putty to fill the screw heads, I have
no idea what he was thinking.

Using my drill and Phillips bit I was getting absolutely know where on
removing the 12+ exposed bottom attachment screws on the upper cabinets.

Using the same bit but changing to my impact driver instantly solved the
problem. What little grip the bit made with the filled Phillips heads
was suddenly enough.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 1:19:56 PM UTC-4, krw wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> >On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> >> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> >>=20
> >> > I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks=
=20
> >> > better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the b=
est=20
> >> > in most applications.
> >>=20
> >> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> >> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> >> appearance.
> >>=20
> >> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
> >
> >The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.=20
>=20
> Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than Phillips.

It has nothing to do with expense. It has to do with what they know and wha=
t they deal with. The vast majority of the families involved in the Derby a=
ren't involved in the types of activities where Torx vs. Robertson vs. Phil=
lips becomes a issue of which type of screws to use. By rule, they must use=
the supplied Phillips head screws in the construction of the Derby cars. W=
hile some of us are also serious DIYers (building our own decks, etc.) and/=
or contractors, where the choice of screw matters, most families still live=
in the Phillips head world. When we say "Hey, Bob! Can you grab you screw =
gun and take that starting ramp apart?" it had better be put together with =
Phillips head or odds are Bob isn't going to be able to help.

> >
> >I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For exam=
ple, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct start=
ing ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the black=
top, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, a=
nything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
> >
> >Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that =
is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have To=
rx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips he=
ads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-dow=
n.
> >
> >I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to re=
move a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chu=
nk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound. =
=20
> >
> >Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expens=
e report to the Derby.
>=20
> Perhaps you should buy them Torx bits, instead. ;-)

Too much variability in participants. Also, not my job. ;-)

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 5:56:21 AM UTC-7, jloomis wrote:
> Torque Drive. The better drive.
> I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the screw
> driver being held sideways.
> Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use

Yeah, the driver-not-straight was a jarring note. If one uses a mixture
of bits (Philips #1, Philips #2, Pozidrive, JIS, Reed and Prince, ...) for
crosspoint screws, it's inevitable that the heads will get damaged (and the
tips as well) because mismatch of shapes makes for excessive
stress and deforms the metal.

If one always uses the correct screwdriver tip, there's less damage, until
someone wags the screwdriver axis around. With the correct tip, and good
seating and alignment, (i.e. operator skill), heads don't get damaged and
tips last a long time.

Torx, Robertson, Bristol spline, and Allen socket screws are better because they
keep the bit on-axis; Bristol spline has the lowest stress on its driving surfaces
(because of the shape - driving faces are nearly parallel to radius), with Torx
close behind. Torx is apparently easily mass-produced.

This tip design probably has some kind of 'tooth' (structure or texture) that
keeps the tip seated, and purports to substitute for operator skill and allow
reuse of damaged fasteners. I'm not interested in that - it's probably better to
use standard tip designs, hone skills, and discard damaged fasteners. As for
removing recalcitrant fasteners... it's just another sometimes-it-might-work
gimmick. *yawn*

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>=20
> > I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks=20
> > better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best=
=20
> > in most applications.
>=20
> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> appearance.
>=20
> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.

The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.=20

I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example=
, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting=
ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop=
, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anyt=
hing but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.

Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is =
what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx =
or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads=
for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remov=
e a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-=
chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound. =20

Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense r=
eport to the Derby.

On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>
>>> Not so long ago, it took work to
>>> find a Torx or Robertson bit.
>
>> Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
>> automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
>> They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
>
> Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
> They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
> No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
> that's not the first place someone other than an auto
> mechanic would have looked.
>
> I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
> ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
> to find a driver bit in a box of screws).
>
> John
>
I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

On 8/14/2015 10:32 AM, Leon wrote:

> That is entirely possible/likely. IIRC GM adopted the Torx in 1975.
> Seat belt bolts were also some heavy duty applications of the Torx
> screw. And for what that is worth, they may have been around earlier
> than 1975 for GM however not for replacing the Phillips style screw. the
> big deal back then was the better screw to replace the applications that
> used Phillips screws.

Many of us leanred about torx when we went to replace a headlight. WTF
is this thing?

On 8/14/2015 9:47 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> If they came up with combination bit for this driver, I'd really be
> interested. I'm tired of constantly swapping the bits.
>
> http://www.geekalerts.com/u/chewdriver-fork-knife-spoon.jpg
>

Knife, fork, woman's screwdriver. Neat.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> > Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> >
> > > I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
> > > better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
> > > in most applications.
> >
> > For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> > That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> > appearance.
> >
> > The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>
> The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.
>
> I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
>
> Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.
>
> I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.
>
> Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.

Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but "don't
have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
they bought them in a store.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:0s6dnb48v4f-
> [email protected]:
>
> > FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
> > Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
> > about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
> > head was eventually developed/adopted.
>
> I've seen about a dozen variations on the "history of the
> phillips screw", but what I beleive to be the true one is
> that Phillips invented it for assembling aluminum aircraft
> hulls, because it was too easy to strip out the hole in the
> soft aluminum sheets. By the time he'd figured out the
> design and manufacturing, aircraft were switching to rivitted
> assembly, but someone at GM saw the screw and thought it
> would work well in auto assembly, since the same problem of
> stripped screwholes existed with sheet steel auto bodies.
>
> > And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
> > far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.
>
> To a degree that's intentional. At my prior employer, we
> used phillips for screws the customer was expected to want
> to undo, and Torx for ones internally he wasn't susposed
> to mess with. So we'd have 4 or 8 externally visible
> phillips heads, and a couple of dozen Torx inside.

My Corvette had four very visible Torx screws that were specifically
intended to be "messed with" by the owner--there was even a wrench
provided. They were the ones that held the removable roof panel.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
> > buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
> > "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
> > is that they bought them in a store.
>
> That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
> find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
> of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
> sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
> hex sockets.
>
> If you want to mess someone up now, you have to find screws
> with Bristol splines or 12-point splines. Or maybe the old
> "clutch-head" screws with the hour-glass shaped recess.

The 10 buck Harbor Freight set (which Home Despot had a few weeks ago
for the same price but seems to have discontinued) has clutch head and
spline (not Bristol but should fit well enough) in addition to a bunch
of other stuff.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
> >> buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
> >> "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
> >> is that they bought them in a store.
> >
> > That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
> > find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
> > of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
> > sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
> > hex sockets.
>
> Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
> automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
> They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
> I sis not look at Craftsman but that probably would have been my seconds
> guess back then.

My Swiss Army Knife that I've had for at least 20 years has Torx.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 5:20:32 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> > > > Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
> > > > > better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
> > > > > in most applications.
> > > >
> > > > For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> > > > That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> > > > appearance.
> > > >
> > > > The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
> > >
> > > The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.
> > >
> > > I do a lot of volunteer stuff that often involves construction. For example, setting up tracks for Soap Box Derby races. We have to construct starting ramps and safety rails. We have to secure 10 x 20 canopies to the blacktop, etc. For years I have wanted to switch to Torx or Star or Robertson, anything but Phillips. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
> > >
> > > Every racing family has a screw gun and Phillips head bits because that is what is used for the Derby car shells. However, not many of them have Torx or Star or Robertson bits, so we are basically forced to use Phillips heads for everything if we want everyone to help with the set-up and tear-down.
> > >
> > > I can't tell you how many times I've had to get out the vice grips to remove a stripped Phillips screw from something because some rookie chunk-chunk-chunked it in with a bit-up Phillips bit. Gawd, how I hate that sound.
> > >
> > > Maybe I should pledge $14 for a Knife Edge bit and then submit an expense report to the Derby.
> >
> > Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
> > buck box of bits that fit just about everything.
>
> See my response to krw.
>
> It's got nothing to do with the availability of bits at any given store, and it's got nothing to do the fact that the boxes of certain "specialty" screws come with a bit to fit.
>
> If you want proof, try this experiment...
>
> Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:
>
> http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/rally-race-schedule.aspx
>
> Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.
>
> That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.
>
> > I'm sorry, but "don't
> > have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
> > they bought them in a store.
>
> No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.
>
> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html

Geez, tell 'em to bring a torx bit.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 6:54:32 PM UTC-4, Kevin Miller wrote:
> > On 08/12/2015 02:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > > Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
> > > with a bit in the box.
> >
> > Same here. And there's bins full of several sizes of bits at the
> > hardware store too. I've got bags full of Phillips screws that I'll
> > never use because the Torx (and Roberston) are so much nicer.
> >
> > There's getting to be less and less of a reason not to make the switch...
> >
> > ...Kevin
>
> Absolutely true. So if you decided it was time to orchestrate the switch from Phillips to Torx/Star/Robertson within an organization of ever changing volunteers, you'd show up on site with a box or two of the screws of your choice, meaning you'd have one or two bits that match the screws. You, and maybe one other person, would then have the pleasure of doing all of the set up and tear down because the vast majority of the other volunteers would be sitting around
drinking coffee with their Phillips-bit-loaded screw guns by their side.

How about you show up with a pack of bits as well?

> Granted, I'm talking about a specific organization where Phillips screws are mandated in the construction of the cars, therefore Phillips bits are what the vast majority of people bring to the race.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > If you want proof, try this experiment...
> >
> > Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:
> >
> > http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/rally-race-schedule.aspx
> >
> > Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.
> >
> > That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.
> >
>
> Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny
> Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.
>
>
> >> I'm sorry, but "don't
> >> have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
> >> they bought them in a store.
> >
> > No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.
> >
> > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
> > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
> > http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html
> >
>
> I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.
> I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a
> different head could be a competitive advantage.

It takes some time to dig through the rules and figure out what's what.
The key is:
"A-7.02: Cars must be constructed and updated per the most current
construction plans published by the International Soap Box Derby, Inc."

Looking at the "plans", I find "This plan booklet shall be followed when
assembling your car. The hardware provided in the International Soap Box
Derby, Inc. Stock Car kit must be used and assembled as shown in the
latest rules, plans and specifications. No changes, modifications or
additions, other than the inclusion or omission of specified optional
parts, shall be made to the car."

In other words you don't design a car and build it anymore, you buy a
box of parts and screw it together.

On 8/13/2015 11:47 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
>> common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
>> not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
>> Phillips/Square drive head.
>>
>
> Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
> slipping and square almost working.
>
> Puckdropper
>

Yes, the deck screw company. It looked like an over sized Phillips
head, blunt on the tip.

And now Bosch makes this.

http://www.mcfeelys.com/2-x-2-in-combo-driver-bit-qty-1-9xgu1.html

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>>> in most applications.
>>
>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
>> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
>> appearance.
>>
>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>> In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
>> with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
>> fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
>> Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.
>>
>> John
>>
>
> They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)
>
>
I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used. The
screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted to
replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close inspection
they were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they confirmed they
were "double square" screws. They suggested using a #2 square drive
bit. It fit perfectly.

--
GW Ross

Join the army, meet interesting
people, and kill them.

On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
>>> But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
>>> sold.
>>> I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.
>>>
>>>
>> Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
>> 3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.
>>
>
> The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)
>
>

Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.

"Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver
> -that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular

Somehow that whole presentation strongly reminds me of the
ads on a low-budget cable station: "our product does
everything for the home handyman! It caulks and seals
windows! It penetrates and loosens stuck bolts! It's
a pet shampoo! Buy now and we'll throw in a second can
free!"

Given that a properly fitting phillips driver can pass
enough torque to snap a typical screw, I'm not really
seeing where this thing has any real advantages. Especially
when the typical screw head is some bastard hybrid of two
or more of the dozen "standard" phillips-like designs.

John

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
> in most applications.

For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
appearance.

The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.

John

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> This double square concept is genius! You probably didn't drive enough
> of them to offer an opinion, but I wonder how they do in the long run
> with stripping out, etc.

You'd think that, except in very tiny sizes, they'd do as well
as Torx. There is a 12-pointed variety, called a spline-drive,
that's been around for a long time (started as an alternative
to allen socket, I think), and those don't seem to have problems.

Incidently, there's also a double-Torx, from what I've been told,
which, of course, is not compatible with spline-drive, even tho
they both have 12 points.

(there's also a 5-point Torx, for use on fire hydrants...)

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:0s6dnb48v4f-
[email protected]:

> FWIW Ford wanted a better screw for production, vs. the slot head screw.
> Robertson would have been adopted had Robertson agreed to Fords terms
> about patent and or use rights of the screw. As a result the Philips
> head was eventually developed/adopted.

I've seen about a dozen variations on the "history of the
phillips screw", but what I beleive to be the true one is
that Phillips invented it for assembling aluminum aircraft
hulls, because it was too easy to strip out the hole in the
soft aluminum sheets. By the time he'd figured out the
design and manufacturing, aircraft were switching to rivitted
assembly, but someone at GM saw the screw and thought it
would work well in auto assembly, since the same problem of
stripped screwholes existed with sheet steel auto bodies.

> And FWIW I do see more Torx, I saw its introduction to GM in 1975 but by
> far I still see the Philips and square drive as the dominant variety.

To a degree that's intentional. At my prior employer, we
used phillips for screws the customer was expected to want
to undo, and Torx for ones internally he wasn't susposed
to mess with. So we'd have 4 or 8 externally visible
phillips heads, and a couple of dozen Torx inside.

John

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
> buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
> "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
> is that they bought them in a store.

That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
hex sockets.

If you want to mess someone up now, you have to find screws
with Bristol splines or 12-point splines. Or maybe the old
"clutch-head" screws with the hour-glass shaped recess.

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:

>> Not so long ago, it took work to
>> find a Torx or Robertson bit.

> Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
> automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
> They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.

Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
that's not the first place someone other than an auto
mechanic would have looked.

I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
to find a driver bit in a box of screws).

John

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> There are other cheating methods, but it's getting much better. Just
> like every other sport or competition, there will always be cheaters.
> When we raced, we pushed the rules to the very limit, but we never
> cheated. We worked with a team of 3 other families and we all have
> rules that are nicknamed after us because we pushed the existing rules
> just far enough that the inspectors had to allow what we did the first
> time they saw it. The things we tried weren't illegal, we just
> interpreted the rules differently based on the way they were worded.
> The next racing season we'd find that a rule was added or modified to
> eliminate the "grey area" that we often played in. In some cases what
> we did became part of the plans, in other cases it was specifically
> dis-allowed. Those were some fun times.

That is the challenge of any racing series, whether it's Soap
Box Derby or Formula One - how to you come up with rules that
allow some measure of creativity, but still preserve fairness
and punish those who take it too far (i.e. cheat).

It is a shame that the Derby organizers felt the only way they
could handle it was to take the creativity out of it. As you
say, the skills to make mechanical innovations are becoming
rarer, most of the creativity in today's youth is in software.

John

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 6:54:32 PM UTC-4, Kevin Miller wrote:
> On 08/12/2015 02:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > Every box of Torx head screws I've purchased in the past decade came
> > with a bit in the box.
>=20
> Same here. And there's bins full of several sizes of bits at the=20
> hardware store too. I've got bags full of Phillips screws that I'll=20
> never use because the Torx (and Roberston) are so much nicer.
>=20
> There's getting to be less and less of a reason not to make the switch...
>=20
> ...Kevin

Absolutely true. So if you decided it was time to orchestrate the switch fr=
om Phillips to Torx/Star/Robertson within an organization of ever changing =
volunteers, you'd show up on site with a box or two of the screws of your c=
hoice, meaning you'd have one or two bits that match the screws. You, and m=
aybe one other person, would then have the pleasure of doing all of the set=
up and tear down because the vast majority of the other volunteers would b=
e sitting around drinking coffee with their Phillips-bit-loaded screw guns =
by their side.

Granted, I'm talking about a specific organization where Phillips screws ar=
e mandated in the construction of the cars, therefore Phillips bits are wha=
t the vast majority of people bring to the race.=20

On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:16:11 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
>>>>> looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
>>>>> look the best in most applications.
>>>>
>>>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
>>>> the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.
>>>>
>>>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>>>
>>> The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.
>>
>> Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
>> Phillips.
>
>Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
>Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
>alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
>screw driver.
>
Time to get with the program. (I'd think people would be more aware
of Torx than Robertson/square).
>
>

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:08:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/12/2015 7:50 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:16:11 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/12/2015 12:19 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>>>>>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
>>>>>>> looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
>>>>>>> look the best in most applications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
>>>>>> the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
>>>>>
>>>>> The disadvantage of Torx is that not everyone has a Torx bit.
>>>>
>>>> Why? The bits aren't much more (if any) more expensive than
>>>> Phillips.
>>>
>>> Because 90% of people that buy a screw driver only buy a straight or
>>> Phillips. Only now are some of them familiar with square drive let
>>> alone torx. And 99% still get by with simply a straight or Phillips
>>> screw driver.
>>>
>> Time to get with the program. (I'd think people would be more aware
>> of Torx than Robertson/square).
>>>
>>>
>
>Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
>common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
>not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
>Phillips/Square drive head.

I see a lot more Torx screws in my car than square head. That's where
I first encountered them (and needed to buy screwdrivers).

On Thursday, August 13, 2015 at 2:44:43 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 8/13/2015 11:47 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> > Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >>
> >> Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
> >> common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
> >> not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
> >> Phillips/Square drive head.
> >>
> >
> > Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
> > slipping and square almost working.
> >
> > Puckdropper
> >
>
> Yes, the deck screw company. It looked like an over sized Phillips
> head, blunt on the tip.
>
> And now Bosch makes this.
>
> http://www.mcfeelys.com/2-x-2-in-combo-driver-bit-qty-1-9xgu1.html

If they came up with combination bit for this driver, I'd really be
interested. I'm tired of constantly swapping the bits.

http://www.geekalerts.com/u/chewdriver-fork-knife-spoon.jpg

On 13 Aug 2015 16:47:32 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Well from the standpoint of HD, Torx heads on deck screws is the most
>> common way to buy that head "now" so people should be more familiar, but
>> not too long ago the same coated deck screws had the combo
>> Phillips/Square drive head.
>>
>
>Does anyone make Phillips/Square combo drivers? I'm tired of Phillips
>slipping and square almost working.

Mcfeely's makes combination screws, with square drive and phillips as
options for driving the screw. That might be a place to look for a
bit.

Mark

On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>>
>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>>
>>
>
> I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
> But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
> sold.
> I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.
>
>
Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.

On 8/11/2015 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>
That is pretty cool, and looks to be a better design, one you would use
all of the time, than the style with the 3 bit set for removing damaged
screws.

On 8/13/2015 8:03 PM, krw wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Not so long ago, it took work to
>>>>> find a Torx or Robertson bit.
>>>
>>>> Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
>>>> automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
>>>> They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
>>>
>>> Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
>>> They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
>>> No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
>>> that's not the first place someone other than an auto
>>> mechanic would have looked.
>>>
>>> I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
>>> ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
>>> to find a driver bit in a box of screws).
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>> I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
>> just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
>> screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.
>
> I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
> a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.
>

74? Wasn't that the Pintang? ;~)
Funny how Ford and GM started upper end vehicles based on their entry
level vehicles. Pinto/Mustang II...... Vega/Monza/Starfire/Skylark, IIRC.


That is entirely possible/likely. IIRC GM adopted the Torx in 1975.
Seat belt bolts were also some heavy duty applications of the Torx
screw. And for what that is worth, they may have been around earlier
than 1975 for GM however not for replacing the Phillips style screw.
the big deal back then was the better screw to replace the applications
that used Phillips screws.

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/11/15 3:00 PM, G. Ross wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me,
>>>>> looks better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they
>>>>> look the best in most applications.
>>>>
>>>> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws. That's
>>>> the way to go if you want the classical craftsman appearance.
>>>>
>>>> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering. In a
>>>> production enviroment, where some low-skill worker with an air
>>>> driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as fast as possible,
>>>> that's a big thing. That's why you see Torx everywhere, and not
>>>> Robertson or Allen head screws.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>
>>> They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)
>>>
>>>
>> I ran into something different on a little trailer I bought used.
>> The screws looked like Torx but none of my bits would fit. I wanted
>> to replace a few that were starting to rust. On very close
>> inspection they were 8 point. I emailed the manufacturer and they
>> confirmed they were "double square" screws. They suggested using a
>> #2 square drive bit. It fit perfectly.
>>
>
> Now THAT might keep me in the square drive business.
> One of pet peeves with square drives is the polarized positioning (same
> with phillips and most worst with slotted).
> This double square concept is genius! You probably didn't drive enough
> of them to offer an opinion, but I wonder how they do in the long run
> with stripping out, etc.
>
>
I only removed about 5 with no problem. I DID order a double square
bit, which broke on the first usage, so back to just a square bit.

--
GW Ross

Join the army, meet interesting
people, and kill them.

On 8/12/2015 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> If you want proof, try this experiment...
>
> Go to this website and find the nearest Soap Box Derby Rally race to your town:
>
> http://www.soapboxderby.org/aasbd-race-program/rally-race-program/rally-race-schedule.aspx
>
> Stop over to enjoy the race. While you are there, walk around to any of 20 - 40 families racing that weekend and ask if you could borrow a Torx bit. The more "sophistcated" families might have one in their tool box, but I'd be very surprised if more than 10% of them did.
>
> That means that if we set up with anything other than Phillips, there would be very few of us setting up and tearing down and that assumes that everyone that has Torx bits actually wants to help out. It's often hard enough to get people to help...the last thing we want to do is limit the pool by using screws that only a few of us can drive.
>

Do you know the story of Johnny Appleseed? You can be come Johnny
Torxbit. Buy a dozen and offer them to the help.


>> I'm sorry, but "don't
>> have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit is that
>> they bought them in a store.
>
> No, the reason they have Phillips bits is because the only screws allowed to be used on for the shell, brakes and airfoils of AASBD Soap Box Derby cars are Phillips screws. Pick a link, any link.
>
> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,14.html
> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,12.html
> http://www.soapboxracing.com/browse.cfm/4,276.html
>

I see they are selling Phillips head, but I don't see a requirement.
I'll take your word for it that a regulation exists. I suppose a
different head could be a competitive advantage.

On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Geez, Home Depot, Harbor Freight, and everybody else sell the same 10
>> buck box of bits that fit just about everything. I'm sorry, but
>> "don't have bits" is a crock. The only reason they have Phillips bit
>> is that they bought them in a store.
>
> That was my thought too. Not so long ago, it took work to
> find a Torx or Robertson bit. Now, tho, the stores are full
> of bit assortments that include straight, phillips, 3 or 4
> sizes of Torx, a couple of Robertons and half a dozen small
> hex sockets.

Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
I sis not look at Craftsman but that probably would have been my seconds
guess back then.

On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:13:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 8/13/2015 8:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 8/12/2015 4:33 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>
>>>> Not so long ago, it took work to
>>>> find a Torx or Robertson bit.
>>
>>> Where were you looking? Now I will admit that I have a pretty long
>>> automotive back ground but I bought my first Torx screw driver in 1975.
>>> They were pretty plentiful at all the auto supply stores.
>>
>> Usual home handyman sort of places - Home Depot, Ace, Sears.
>> They were considered "specialty tools", like circlip pliers.
>> No surprise you could find them in an auto parts store, but
>> that's not the first place someone other than an auto
>> mechanic would have looked.
>>
>> I'd guess they started showing up widely about 7-8 years
>> ago. (which would be about the same time it became normal
>> to find a driver bit in a box of screws).
>>
>> John
>>
>I'm sure it is all relative. I saw wide spread Torx in the 80's. You
>just had to realize what you were looking at in the assortment/array of
>screw drivers, sockets, and hex style wrenches.

I remember them from the '70s. It had to be before '75 because we had
a '74 Rustang. The door striker was essentially a Torx-head bolt.

On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>

I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
sold.
I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Torque Drive. The better drive.
I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the screw
driver being held sideways.
Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use, although I use them for
concrete forms, and throw away.
Yes, his bit does look like it really works.
Different head than what he had shown in the beginning with the sleeve.
john

"Gramps' shop" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular

On 8/11/2015 1:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

> I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
> But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
> sold.
> I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.

I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
in most applications. Torx is the way to go though, but like you, it's
a slow conversion.

One big disadvantage of both square and torx, is for a very long time,
Phillips (and yuck slotted) have been used by everyone in the US, so if
you are half way with square and torx, you always need an assortment of
drivers to repair stuff, and both square and torx are picky with size of
driver, unlike Phillips where you often can get away with the wrong size
driver, you certainly can't with square bits.

My Swiss army knife that is always with me has a Phillips bit that I
have used to tighten up everything from doors, chairs, even pool tables.
That one bit works fine on a large variety of different size Phillips
screws.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>>>
>>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
>> But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
>> sold.
>> I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.
>>
>>
> Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
> 3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.
>

The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/11/15 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>> I could have used this so many times before I switched to square bits.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over Phillips.
>>>> But since I started using the newer Torx heads screws/bits I'm totally
>>>> sold.
>>>> I'm slowly converting to 100% Torx.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I probably have
>>> 3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and fewer screws these days.
>>>
>>
>> The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg. :-)
>>
>>
>
> Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.

And I JUST bought another "re-fill" kit because they're 50% off this
month.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

yeah, what a piece of work that is....
john

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 8/11/2015 7:55 AM, jloomis wrote:
> Torque Drive. The better drive.
> I was not thrilled with the first part of the video that showed the
> screw driver being held sideways.
> Either way though, phillips are tough screws to use, although I use them
> for concrete forms, and throw away.
> Yes, his bit does look like it really works.
> Different head than what he had shown in the beginning with the sleeve.
> john

John, wasn't the original, sleeved bit a standard Phillips head like we
all swear at?<g>

On 8/11/15 11:25 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/11/2015 11:15 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 8/11/15 11:12 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2015 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/15 8:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/11/2015 12:08 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/11/15 12:01 AM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>>>>> I could have used this so many times before I switched to
>>>>>>> square bits.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/762395654/new-phillips-screwdriver-that-turns-new-and-damage?ref=category_popular
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love my square bits and they were a vast improvement over
>>>>>> Phillips. But since I started using the newer Torx heads
>>>>>> screws/bits I'm totally sold. I'm slowly converting to 100%
>>>>>> Torx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Torx is great but I doubt I could ever convert 100% as I
>>>>> probably have 3000 or so assorted screws, and I use fewer and
>>>>> fewer screws these days.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The only thing keeping me from already being near 100% is Kreg.
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah! lol... I probably have 2000 of those.
>>
>> And I JUST bought another "re-fill" kit because they're 50% off
>> this month.
>>
>>
> Fortunately pocket hole screws are not unique to pocket holes. they
> tend to be excellent quality screws for other uses. I hat the new
> silver finish, I don't want to bring attention to the screw.

Yep, I was using them for probably 90% things other than pocket holes.
Now, with Spax and other specialty fastener brands being fairly
ubiquitous around here, I'm using fewer pocket hole screws.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/11/15 1:50 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm not a fan of square bits. Torx works better, and to me, looks
>> better. I don't mind "quality" Phillips either, and they look the best
>> in most applications.
>
> For looks, you can't beat straight slotted brass screws.
> That's the way to go if you want the classical craftsman
> appearance.
>
> The huge advantage of Torx is the bits are self-centering.
> In a production enviroment, where some low-skill worker
> with an air driver is trying to drive hundreds per day as
> fast as possible, that's a big thing. That's why you see
> Torx everywhere, and not Robertson or Allen head screws.
>
> John
>

They help my high-skilled ass, too! :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply