Building a fence - Nailer?

On Fri, 13 May 2011 07:04:18 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>Mentioning that materials don't last these days, my dad has a gate in his
>atrium that was built in 1974. I have had to replace the cedar posts on
>both sides but the gate only looks a couple of years old. 37 years ain't
>bad for a cedar picket gate, 8" wide pickets at that.

You guys use the term "picket" too loosely for my tastes. They're
usually 42" tall or less and 1x3 or 1x4". Like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Classic_Picket_Fence.JPG

Are you guys talking about plain old straight (or dog-eared) fencing
_boards_?

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

On Wed, 11 May 2011 07:36:49 -0700 (PDT), Limp Arbor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>SWMBO wants a fence.
>
>Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
>the winter.
>
>Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
>neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>
>Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
>the fence will be.
>
>Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>
>
>I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
>dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
>post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
>nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
>about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>
>I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>
>What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?

Ideally, you'll want an impact driver and coated or stainless screws,
not nails. They allow for easy removal and replacement as (not if)
they're destroyed. It's a bit more expensive and time consuming, but
the advantages outweigh those, unless you're painting the fence, which
is even more expensive.

If you do go with nails, they'll rust and discolor the fence unless
you buy stainless nails. If you go with a brad nailer and stainless
brads, the first kid who tries to climb over it will accidentally pull
off a board. From then on, more will come down for wholesale access.

I'd be perfectly happy to use a HF 15ga gun with stainless brads (not
available from HF) if I were to make the mistake of nailing up a
fence.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

"Puckdropper" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> under thought.
>
> Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
>
> I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
>

I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed down.
Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.

I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless steel or
deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to the
price of the fence.

On Wed, 11 May 2011 23:15:38 -0700, "Edward Hennessey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:18:40 -0700, "Edward Hennessey"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Limp Arbor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> SWMBO wants a fence.
>>>>
>>>> Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
>>>> the winter.
>>>>
>>>> Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
>>>> neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>>>>
>>>> Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
>>>> the fence will be.
>>>>
>>>> Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
>>>> dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
>>>> post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
>>>> nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
>>>> about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>>>>
>>>> I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>>>>
>>>> What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?
>>>
>>>LA:
>>>
>
>LJ:
>
>>>I haven't checked the wind loading on a shadowbox
>>>arrangement but I think it will be quite low, so there
>>>should be no problem there.
>>
>> I'd think they'd have nearly the same loading as the solid fence, say
>> 90% as a WAG.
>
>Though nothing is at hand to detail the point, one
>time I put up a fence where the goal was to minimize
>backside air turbulence on a space "roofed" by shade
>cloth. A treatment turned up that dicussed various
>design alternatives in terms of numbers and dispersion
>patterns that were comprehensive and
>surprisingly different, pivoting around
>things like seemingly minor changes in paling spacing.
>It was impressive. I obeyed. And it paid off like a charm.

Cool. I'm happily living in an average 3mph wind area. Every time I
go up to the mountains, I remember why I don't want a hilltop home.
It's too bloody windy up there!


>That experience implies the data for something
>more mainstream like wind load will be out
>there. Whether that is important to the OP's location...
>who knows?

We may be hearing that from him soon.


>>>Spacing in front will be a factor in the above and
>>>determine how much--or if-- someone can see into
>>>your yard on a diagonal perspective. I'd use screws
>>>Others have discussed options.
>>
>> Cat/rat/coon/possum/ferret-friendly fences.
>
>Not to print the name of "rattlesnake" in that
>company.

Yeah, those fences are snake-friendly, too.


>>>Depending on how long you intend to grace the
>>>planet with your presence, own the property or the
>>>wetness in you climate, you may want to think on
>>>the heavier-duty, metal U post hangers to fix the
>>>posts in concrete. You balance the additonal outlay
>>>against your use. Whatever you do, taper the concret
>>>down and away from any installet elements for
>>>drainage.
>>
>> If I were building a fence for myself today, I's use steel set into
>> concrete to hold the posts proud of the ground altogether. Today's PT
>> lumber is pure SHIT. The treating only goes 1/8" into the wood, and
>> any cut exposes untreated timber to the elements. Then they did away
>> with the brown-dyed preservative and made it illegal to color or
>> concoct your own brew for the same use. Goddamned EPA...
>
>Ditto. Ditto. Before I went metal, I paid a visit to
>the local Parks and Recreation people after observing
>them using substantial brackets and heavy angle with bolts on
>posts. A kind man said their failure rate--if not allowed
>to rust--was a number you could count in percent with
>a few fingers. That's in an abusive, public environment.
> Sure, it's another 5-6 or so frogskins a post.
>The alternative method tolls a bit more for replacement.

Yeah, park fences take a helluva lot of abuse.


>Another factor is to cure the concrete for as long as you can
>against shrinkage and cracking. Don't load it for awhile. Try
>to avoid hot weather when pouring. Cover it with an absorptive
>cloth. Put a gallon jug of water on it with some weeping pinholes
>and wet it periodically if that is called for. It's a drag. But that
>will be the end of it.

I always give fence posts at least a couple days to cure. Ideally, a
week would be better, but try to tell that to the lady who wants a
fence up around her kids.


>>>Certain HD stores also stock plastic-wood composite
>>>pickets in russet and faded green. No painting allowed
>>>and termites forbidden. They're about a dollar to half that
>>>again more than natural competition. If they weigh less
>>>and you check out the other specs, it might earn a pondering.
>>
>> They're all 2 to 3 times the weight of kiln dried lumber, Ed.
>
>Good to know, Larry.

I'm glad my clients are too cheap to use that stuff.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

Nailer?
.
.
I hardly know her!

Limp Arbor" wrote:

> SWMBO wants a fence.

Unless you want to be a slave to a wooden fence, build it out of
reclaimed HDPE.

Here is one source in Green Bay, WI.

http://tinyurl.com/y976voo


Lew

Limp Arbor" wrote:

> SWMBO wants a fence.
------------------------------
Unless you want to be a slave to a wooden fence, build it out of
reclaimed HDPE.

Here is one source in Green Bay, WI.

http://tinyurl.com/y976voo


Lew

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> under thought.
>
> Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
>
> I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
>

I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed down.
Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.

I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.

Puckdropper

The crown staples I have used all rust after a few years in the wood.
Nothing looks worse than rust running down a board. I use them many other
places but not on a rain exposed wood.

I built an all cedar fence once and the nails wouldn't stay in that wood if
my life depended on it. The fance board ended up screwed to hold them.

Even the posts were so light they rose out of the ground about 2 inches
every spring from the frost lift. So much for having posts over 4 feet deep
below the frost line. They pounded back down each year easily enough,
though.

--------------
"Gerald Ross" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On my past fences I used screws. The last one I used 1/2" crown
galvanized staples and It was much faster and has been just as stable.
I would go with 1/8" spacing--just to have a little leeway to adjust
for plumb when needed. The pickets will shrink and the gap will
always get larger with time. I usually lay a 2 x 4 on the ground to
rest the pickets on, then remove it. Soil seems to build up under a
fence, and once it touches the fence rot starts.

If you worry about dogs digging under the fence, dig a shallow trench
between posts under the fence line and fill it with sackrete. This
also helps keep weeds from popping up under the fence. If your
sprinkler wets one side of the fence the boards will warp DAMHIKT.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case.
Coincidence?

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> @swbelldotnet says...
> >
> > "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> > @swbelldotnet says...
> > >
> > > "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> > > news:[email protected]:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> > > > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> > > > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and
> > > > the
> > > > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> > > > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought,
> > > > or
> > > > under thought.
> > > >
> > > > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
> > > >
> > > > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> > > > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> > > > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed
> > > down.
> > > Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
> > > pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut
> > > off.
> > >
> > > I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
> > > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> > >
> > > Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless
> > > steel
> > > or
> > > deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to
> > > the
> > > price of the fence.
> >
> >
> > A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
> > galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it came
> > apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
> > it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
> > screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
> > both pieces to hold like the head was still on.
> >
> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >
> > If you did not use an impact driver to remove the screws you may want to
> > consider using one. While they are extremely strong compared to the
> > typical
> > same voltage drill, the impact action is much easier on the fastener.
> > Because the torque is not constant it gives the fastener a chance relax
> > a
> > bit.
>
> Used an impact driver going in and going out.
>
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>
> Crappy Spax screws I guess. I know screws don't hold up well out doors
> unless specifically suited but I have used regular square drive out doors
> and several years later they are still OK.

Have you tried taking those screws out? If not, give it a shot and see
what happens.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Yes, I've yet to have one break off. But I will say they were manufactured
20+ years ago.

They were SPAX brand which I have never heard anybody call "crappy".
They were holding up just fine. It's just that taking them out the
heads came off of some (maybe 1 out of 100). Even with the heads off
they were doing their job.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I did not meant to declare SPAX crappy, you may have gotten a crappy batch,
it happens.


My point is not that there was any defect in the screws. My point is
that using a good brand of screw that was not corroded in any manner,
some were still not readily removable, so one should not count on ease
of disassembly as being a benefit of screws.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Agreed.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Wed, 11 May 2011 07:36:49 -0700 (PDT), Limp Arbor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>SWMBO wants a fence.
>
>Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
>the winter.
>
>Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
>neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>
>Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
>the fence will be.
>
>Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>
>
>I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
>dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
>post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
>nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
>about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>
>I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>
>What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?

Ideally, you'll want an impact driver and coated or stainless screws,
not nails. They allow for easy removal and replacement as (not if)
they're destroyed. It's a bit more expensive and time consuming, but
the advantages outweigh those, unless you're painting the fence, which
is even more expensive.

Cant say that I have ever seen a fence where the posts and rails did not
need to be replaced when the picket did. Typically the post and rail may
look OK but they are not going to out last the second round of pickets.
Better to simply replace every thing and nail it all up cause you might as
well not invest more time than necessary considering it will all have to be
replaced.

On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:15:20 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nailer?
>.
>.
>I hardly know her!

When has that ever stopped ya? Usually, it's better that way.
No gnawing off of the arm to get away when you sober up and wake in
the morning, eh? <wink, wink, nudge, nudge, knowwhatImean?>

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Fri, 13 May 2011 07:04:18 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>Mentioning that materials don't last these days, my dad has a gate in his
>atrium that was built in 1974. I have had to replace the cedar posts on
>both sides but the gate only looks a couple of years old. 37 years ain't
>bad for a cedar picket gate, 8" wide pickets at that.

You guys use the term "picket" too loosely for my tastes. They're
usually 42" tall or less and 1x3 or 1x4". Like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Classic_Picket_Fence.JPG

Are you guys talking about plain old straight (or dog-eared) fencing
_boards_?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Picket, the part that provides the privacy. Check out what your local
lumber yard or Borg calls them. A picket does not have size constraints.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?keyword=picket&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

scroll down.

http://www.lowes.com/SearchCatalogDisplay?Ntt=picket&langId=-1&storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&N=0

scroll down

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> > under thought.
> >
> > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
> >
> > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
> >
>
> I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed down.
> Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
> pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.
>
> I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless steel
> or
> deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to the
> price of the fence.


A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it came
apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
both pieces to hold like the head was still on.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

If you did not use an impact driver to remove the screws you may want to
consider using one. While they are extremely strong compared to the typical
same voltage drill, the impact action is much easier on the fastener.
Because the torque is not constant it gives the fastener a chance relax a
bit.

On May 11, 10:17=A0pm, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Cant say that I have ever seen a fence where the posts and rails did not
> need to be replaced when the picket did. =A0Typically the post and rail m=
ay
> look OK but they are not going to out last the second round of pickets.
> Better to simply replace every thing and nail it all up cause you might a=
s
> well not invest more time than necessary considering it will all have to =
be
> replaced.

Couldn't agree more. Gone are the days of wooden fences lasting 20
years or more. I put a standard three rail fence, and if I can get
them to spring for the dough, I use the metal posts and brackets.
However, sometimes the neighbors don't like the looks (not everyone
lives in the country) so they want all wood.

I get the best pickets I can from a cedar supplier here in town. They
are a bit more expensive, but in the end cost about the same as the
standard junk you buy as the waste goes down quite a bit.

I shoot them on with galvanized ring shanked nails, with the gun set
to slightly sink them. They don't pull out. When replacing a picket,
the cedar picket will come off, but the nails remain. I tap them in,
and put on a new one with a hand driven 6d cold galvanized ring shank.

I don't have the time, the inclination, or see the benefit of the
extra effort or cost screwing a fence together.

But then again, that's just me. YMMV.

Robert

"Leon" wrote

Not saying that you have not had good luck, but no one screw manufacturer
makes every screw perfect. I too have gone through thousands and at an odd
time or another every 4-5 years I break a screw or two. Probably my fault
but the screw was not expected to do anything the previous hundred had not
been used for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Shoot, at that low of break rate, it is statistically insignificant. If I
break that few, I always figured it was "operator error" <g>

-- Jim in NC

"J. Clarke" wrote

Used an impact driver going in and going out.

Try ceramic coated square or torx drive. They will not twist off.

-- Jim in NC

wrote in message
news:939f553c-143a-4918-8d0a-417df3f5262b@y12g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

On May 11, 10:17 pm, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Cant say that I have ever seen a fence where the posts and rails did not
> need to be replaced when the picket did. Typically the post and rail may
> look OK but they are not going to out last the second round of pickets.
> Better to simply replace every thing and nail it all up cause you might as
> well not invest more time than necessary considering it will all have to
> be
> replaced.

Couldn't agree more. Gone are the days of wooden fences lasting 20
years or more. I put a standard three rail fence, and if I can get
them to spring for the dough, I use the metal posts and brackets.
However, sometimes the neighbors don't like the looks (not everyone
lives in the country) so they want all wood.

I get the best pickets I can from a cedar supplier here in town. They
are a bit more expensive, but in the end cost about the same as the
standard junk you buy as the waste goes down quite a bit.

I shoot them on with galvanized ring shanked nails, with the gun set
to slightly sink them. They don't pull out. When replacing a picket,
the cedar picket will come off, but the nails remain. I tap them in,
and put on a new one with a hand driven 6d cold galvanized ring shank.

I don't have the time, the inclination, or see the benefit of the
extra effort or cost screwing a fence together.

But then again, that's just me. YMMV.

Robert


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence he
build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a couple of 8'
sections to close the gap between property lines and the house in the front
but after learning that you very seldom get away with just replacing the
pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or under thought.

Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.

I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what diameter
posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the terminal sized
posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.

"Leon" wrote

LOL, No kidding. If you have not twisted the head off of a particular brand
yet it is only because you have not yet used enough of them.

I must be living right, then. I run in several pounds of screws per month,
and they don't twist off. It helps to choose the right length, and if it is
necessary drill a pilot hole, but usually not.

The place screws usually break is the transition from threaded to
non-threaded shank. These screws seem to have a more gradual transition,
and do not have such a highly stressed area. For me, twisted off heads are
mainly a thing of the past.

I have no idea what brand they are. I get them at a Mom and Pop's type of
lumber yard in bulk bins. They have gone to all torx head, now. I used to
love square drive, but now am hooked on Torx.

-- Jim in NC

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> @swbelldotnet says...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
>> @swbelldotnet says...
>> >
>> > "J. Clarke" wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
>> > @swbelldotnet says...
>> > >
>> > > "Puckdropper" wrote in message
>> > > news:[email protected]...
>> > >
>> > > "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> > > news:[email protected]:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a
>> > > > fence
>> > > > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
>> > > > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and
>> > > > the
>> > > > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
>> > > > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought,
>> > > > or
>> > > > under thought.
>> > > >
>> > > > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
>> > > >
>> > > > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
>> > > > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
>> > > > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed
>> > > down.
>> > > Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
>> > > pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut
>> > > off.
>> > >
>> > > I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
>> > > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> > >
>> > > Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless
>> > > steel
>> > > or
>> > > deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to
>> > > the
>> > > price of the fence.
>> >
>> >
>> > A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
>> > galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it
>> > came
>> > apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
>> > it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
>> > screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
>> > both pieces to hold like the head was still on.
>> >
>> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> >
>> > If you did not use an impact driver to remove the screws you may want
>> > to
>> > consider using one. While they are extremely strong compared to the
>> > typical
>> > same voltage drill, the impact action is much easier on the fastener.
>> > Because the torque is not constant it gives the fastener a chance relax
>> > a
>> > bit.
>>
>> Used an impact driver going in and going out.
>>
>>
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>
>>
>> Crappy Spax screws I guess. I know screws don't hold up well out doors
>> unless specifically suited but I have used regular square drive out doors
>> and several years later they are still OK.
>
> Have you tried taking those screws out? If not, give it a shot and see
> what happens.
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Yes, I've yet to have one break off. But I will say they were
> manufactured 20+ years ago.
>
> They were SPAX brand which I have never heard anybody call "crappy".
> They were holding up just fine. It's just that taking them out the
> heads came off of some (maybe 1 out of 100). Even with the heads off
> they were doing their job.
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> I did not meant to declare SPAX crappy, you may have gotten a crappy
> batch, it happens.
>
>
> My point is not that there was any defect in the screws. My point is
> that using a good brand of screw that was not corroded in any manner,
> some were still not readily removable, so one should not count on ease
> of disassembly as being a benefit of screws.
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> Agreed.
>

And I agree with everybody that you count on
nothing more than the probabilities developed
from actual experience and testing, yours or that of
someone more informed.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote
>
> Used an impact driver going in and going out.
>
> Try ceramic coated square or torx drive. They will not twist off.

Except when they do.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

LOL, No kidding. If you have not twisted the head off of a particular brand
yet it is only because you have not yet used enough of them.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> > under thought.
> >
> > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
> >
> > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
> >
>
> I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed down.
> Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
> pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.
>
> I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless steel or
> deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to the
> price of the fence.


A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it came
apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
both pieces to hold like the head was still on.

There was no rust or corrosion evident on any of the screws, so it's
difficult to blame the heads spinning off on weathering.

Personally I tend to use screws mainly because I'm too lazy to swing a
hammer, but I don't really see removability as being a selling point in
exterior wood construction.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> @swbelldotnet says...
> >
> > "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > >
> > > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> > > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> > > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> > > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> > > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> > > under thought.
> > >
> > > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
> > >
> > > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> > > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> > > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
> > >
> >
> > I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed down.
> > Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
> > pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.
> >
> > I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >
> > Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless steel
> > or
> > deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to the
> > price of the fence.
>
>
> A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
> galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it came
> apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
> it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
> screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
> both pieces to hold like the head was still on.
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> If you did not use an impact driver to remove the screws you may want to
> consider using one. While they are extremely strong compared to the typical
> same voltage drill, the impact action is much easier on the fastener.
> Because the torque is not constant it gives the fastener a chance relax a
> bit.

Used an impact driver going in and going out.

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> @swbelldotnet says...
> >
> > "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> > @swbelldotnet says...
> > >
> > > "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> > > news:[email protected]:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> > > > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> > > > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> > > > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> > > > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> > > > under thought.
> > > >
> > > > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
> > > >
> > > > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> > > > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> > > > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed
> > > down.
> > > Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
> > > pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.
> > >
> > > I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
> > > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> > >
> > > Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless steel
> > > or
> > > deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to
> > > the
> > > price of the fence.
> >
> >
> > A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
> > galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it came
> > apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
> > it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
> > screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
> > both pieces to hold like the head was still on.
> >
> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >
> > If you did not use an impact driver to remove the screws you may want to
> > consider using one. While they are extremely strong compared to the
> > typical
> > same voltage drill, the impact action is much easier on the fastener.
> > Because the torque is not constant it gives the fastener a chance relax a
> > bit.
>
> Used an impact driver going in and going out.
>
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>
> Crappy Spax screws I guess. I know screws don't hold up well out doors
> unless specifically suited but I have used regular square drive out doors
> and several years later they are still OK.

Have you tried taking those screws out? If not, give it a shot and see
what happens.

They were SPAX brand which I have never heard anybody call "crappy".
They were holding up just fine. It's just that taking them out the
heads came off of some (maybe 1 out of 100). Even with the heads off
they were doing their job.

My point is not that there was any defect in the screws. My point is
that using a good brand of screw that was not corroded in any manner,
some were still not readily removable, so one should not count on ease
of disassembly as being a benefit of screws.

If you really want to be able to get it apart later without mangling it,
use machine screws, carriage bolts, elevator bolts, timber bolts, or
other fasteners which take nuts and put anti-seize on them.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote
>
> Used an impact driver going in and going out.
>
> Try ceramic coated square or torx drive. They will not twist off.

Except when they do.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Fri, 13 May 2011 11:52:59 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>On Fri, 13 May 2011 07:04:18 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>Mentioning that materials don't last these days, my dad has a gate in his
>>atrium that was built in 1974. I have had to replace the cedar posts on
>>both sides but the gate only looks a couple of years old. 37 years ain't
>>bad for a cedar picket gate, 8" wide pickets at that.
>
>You guys use the term "picket" too loosely for my tastes. They're
>usually 42" tall or less and 1x3 or 1x4". Like this:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Classic_Picket_Fence.JPG
>
>Are you guys talking about plain old straight (or dog-eared) fencing
>_boards_?
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>Picket, the part that provides the privacy. Check out what your local
>lumber yard or Borg calls them. A picket does not have size constraints.
>
>http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?keyword=picket&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
>scroll down.

Weird.


>http://www.lowes.com/SearchCatalogDisplay?Ntt=picket&langId=-1&storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&N=0
>
>scroll down

Ditto.


Even HD calls them "fence boards" on other pages. http://goo.gl/aT9pc

Every movie I've ever seen which mentioned a "white picket fence"
referred to the short, narrow, open-spaced style shown here.
http://goo.gl/LY8IM

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Do you believe every thing you see in a movie? ;~)

The key words you mention above, "white picket fence" describes a
particular type fence and picket.

When I hear cedar picket or PT picket fence I think 1x6x72 dog eared
pickets.

wrote in message
news:b3885b4d-c32d-46d4-90e9-c7d493f29e4d@b42g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

On May 16, 6:44 am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>
> That looks like a dandy post Robert.
>
> I have questions. I typically don't worry about the height of my posts
> until after the concrete has set and then I run a level line and cut the
> tops of the posts. Obviously this would be difficult with these posts.
> Do
> you however simply pound them in a bit farther into the hole, beyond the
> bottom of the hole to get them even in height?

My fence sets these a solid 24" into concrete. He strings the top and
simply taps them to the right height, not caring of he goes through
the bottom of the hole or not. Without air, it would take many
decades for this fence post to rust enough on the very bottom, buried
end of the dirt.

BUT; we have a lot of areas with limestone bedrock not too far beneath
the layer of topsoil. If he can get them in 16" or so, he doesn't
mind. He slips bolts into the holes to provide more grab. He puts
them through the punched holes with a nut to hold them, and the bolts
going into two different directions so it looks like a porcupine.

If he has an errant post that is too tall, he has one guy steady it,
and then he cuts through it with a 7" grinder with a metal cutting
abrasive blade. The steel is pretty soft and it just takes him about
three or four minutes to cut through the top to get it to the right
length.


> Also I use quick set concrete so I don't have to stake the posts, they
> stay
> plum by them selves. Is there any special needs in this regard ? tI
> seems
> that they might be slightly more likely to tilt off plumb, maybe not.

Nothing different when you set them. The key here is that he uses
regular or fast setting concrete in bags, but mixes in about 1/2
gallon measured, not weighed of this stuff into his concrete:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/423xl8x
It is a product known as Por Rock, and is a cement "setting" product
to set in all kinds of things into concrete. When I was working on
restaurants about a million years ago, we used ot use that stuff to
set chairs and furniture into the slabs. Never saw on fail when done
correctly.

NOTE: he uses a generic Por Rock that is available at Fastenal as
well as the original.

He pours a bit into the hold (6" or so) then puts the rest in the rest
of the mix. He pulls the post up and down to "rod down" the concrete
into the hole. Then he fills it up and does the same thing again.
When he is happy with the position, he fine tunes it and taps the post
in a bit or moves it back and forth. It might move a hair one way or
another, but close enough for fencing. And with the Por Rock in it,
it sets up fast. I mean really fast. When he is in a hurry, he will
put almost a gallon into the concrete and he can attach wood
crossmembers on in an hour!

> Do you ever run a top rail that is wide side up?

Yes, and it works like a champ as helps to keep the top part of the
fence from bowing in or out. I can remember which job it was, but
check this out; On a <<new>> fence Alex (fence guy) conned me into
7' centers, not eight. He bought 14' 2X material and cut them in
half. He did the cap rail, the top rail and the bottom rail by
cutting a pile of 14' boards in half. He figured it cut down the time
he had to mess with warping 8' pieces, and he didn't get all the trash
he got with the normal 8' lengths.

The 14' made a lot nicer looking fence and went up FAST. He
outdistanced the picket installers quickly and it was a fast moving
operation to get that fence up. He told me he didn't worry about
bowing with 7' centers, so no 2nd top rail. Just the one on edge like
the middle and top.

But he only goes 7' if it is a <<new>> fence, one he cannot use the
old 8'o.c. holes on, and the contractor or client will spend the extra
money. Just FYI, it only adds two posts on a 55' run Since he
charges $32 a hole/post, the extra sturdiness, and the better looking
fence (hey - it even looks stronger!) make that $64 worth it. On an
overall fence job, this usually adds 4 posts to the overall cost. He
has found though, that no matter how much he screws with it, he can't
get these posts to work well on the corners or on either side of a
gate. He uses a good 4X4s there, and these allow him to easily attach
hardware and hasps.

So the last fence he put up for me where the client wanted a 20 year
wood fence, he used 6X6 treated on the corners (go Alex, go!), metal
posts in the field, and 4X4s on both sides of the two gates. The
client (and me!) were blown away at how sturdy this was. He could
have used 4X4s in the corners, but we got the 6X6 treated for only $15
more a post.

So to recap; we put two more holes in across the back of that house,
and on up each side. That cost us another $128; add in $64 for one
extra field post per side, or another $128. Add in the extra $60 each
for four corners, and the whole (hole?) thing cost me another $316 to
construct one helluva fence.

A regular cedar three rail costs about $30 (round numbers) or so
finished a foot (depending on cedar costs). So at +/- 160 feet at $30
l.f. ($4800) + 2 gates at $80 each, or a total cost of $4960. To get
our version of the municipal fence it only adds $316. This is only a
6% difference, and I have no doubt it adds years to the fence life and
certainly its appearance. The first time I did this I split the cost
with the homeowner so we could both see one up built in this way.
Worth it!

I sell fencing on a cafeteria plan, so they get to decide which
options they want, so they can add as much or as little as they want
to a regular fence bid. That way if I am not immediately competitive,
I can pull out the extras and look apples to apples at the fence cost
with a client. After that I can add what they want. That way I at
least stay in the hunt.

The only other thing we add from time to time is a weed eater board.
This is a piece of 2X8 TYP board that he turns on edge and mounts like
a rail at the bottom of the fence. It sits directly in contact with
the ground, and when installed mowers and grass cutters run their weed
eaters across the TYP instead of the soft cedar. FYI, this add $1.5
to $2 a running foot. Well worth it as today's weed eaters chew up
cedar really fast. We are getting requests for this bottom board more
and more these days.

> I am thinking about running a short temp fence across my covered patio to
> restrict our dog from having the whole back yard. Can these posts simply
> be
> pounded into the ground so that they can be pulled up later?

No. They make a regular version of this post, and a heavy duty
version. Neither of them can you pound into the ground unless you
used a really short piece. The metal is soft, regardless of which
version you get. If I was going to put in a temp version of fence
with metal posts I would use the old faithful green, ranch style steel
post and rent/buy the driver

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3f94jc8

> Thanks.

Anytime.

Robert

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THANK YOU ROBERT!

For years I have been laying out 8' rails on the ground and placing my posts
"near the ends" I never have measured out the exact distance for the rail
lengths. I then custom fit each rail between the posts. For me this takes
less time than trying to get the posts in the exact spot for a given length
rail board. So basically I kinda use the 7' between posts too. It is
really not noticeable if the distance between the posts varies 3~4 inches
and the time saved in lay out is well worth my expense of an extra post or
two.

I like the idea of buying the 14 footers to get better material!

I really don't offer alternatives except for picket material. You refer to
the weed eater board, I call it the rot board. Again I will seldom offer to
build a fence with out that board. I tell them you can pay me $22 per foot
for a fence with that board or you can pay me $22 per foot with out that
board. In the Houston area that board keeps the ends of the pickets out of
the grass that is typically soaked in morning dew. I typically use a TP
5/4 1x6 deck board. Additionally the time savings in putting up pickets is
"considerable". I tell the customer you can pay for the board or you can
pay me the extra time to hang the pickets. With the rot boards you simply
stand the pickets up on top and not worry about keeping the top of the
picket line straight. Every 9~10 pickets I double check for plumb and all
pickets are next to each other with no gap during installation.

Ill look into the additive for the concrete. As mentioned before, I use the
Quick setting stuff, 2~3 times more expensive but again it saves time. I
dig all the holes first and then start pouring in the concrete. By the time
I get to the last post the first is usually ready to go. That said however
after manually digging 10~12 post holes and dragging the bags of concrete
around I normally wait till the following day to put up the rails and
pickets. I'm tarred at that point. ;~0

Concerning the post master posts and my temp fence, I probably forgot to
mention that our Great Dane would not think of trying to go over a 30" tall
fence. ;~) Id cut the posts in half. But thanks for the other idea of
the green ranch posts.

Thanks again for all the information.

On 5/13/2011 8:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> Every movie I've ever seen which mentioned a "white picket fence"
> referred to the short, narrow, open-spaced style shown here.
> http://goo.gl/LY8IM

That's in Pleasantville, where it is always 72, the basketballs go
swoosshh, and fences don't require fasteners of any type.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Limp Arbor wrote:
> SWMBO wants a fence.
>
> Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
> the winter.
>
> Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
> neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>
> Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
> the fence will be.
>
> Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>
>
> I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
> dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
> post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
> nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
> about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>
> I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>
> What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?

On my past fences I used screws. The last one I used 1/2" crown
galvanized staples and It was much faster and has been just as stable.
I would go with 1/8" spacing--just to have a little leeway to adjust
for plumb when needed. The pickets will shrink and the gap will
always get larger with time. I usually lay a 2 x 4 on the ground to
rest the pickets on, then remove it. Soil seems to build up under a
fence, and once it touches the fence rot starts.

If you worry about dogs digging under the fence, dig a shallow trench
between posts under the fence line and fill it with sackrete. This
also helps keep weeds from popping up under the fence. If your
sprinkler wets one side of the fence the boards will warp DAMHIKT.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case.
Coincidence?

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
>
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>, lcb11211
> @swbelldotnet says...
> >
> > "Puckdropper" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > >
> > > Robert I think that once the typical "screw" person replaces a fence
> > > he build 20 years prior he sees the light. ;~) I have screwed a
> > > couple of 8' sections to close the gap between property lines and the
> > > house in the front but after learning that you very seldom get away
> > > with just replacing the pickets the screw idea is way over thought, or
> > > under thought.
> > >
> > > Ditto the galvanized ring shank nails on every thing.
> > >
> > > I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what
> > > diameter posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the
> > > terminal sized posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.
> > >
> >
> > I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed
> > down.
> > Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
> > pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.
> >
> > I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.
> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >
> > Probably right on that count unless you use those pretty stainless steel
> > or
> > deck screws and then you probably add several hundreds of dollars to
> > the
> > price of the fence.
>
>
> A while back I put together some scaffolding from 2x lumber using
> galvanized SPAX screws. Was up for about three months. Most of it came
> apart all right, but some of the heads spun right off and when they did
> it wasn't possible to get the pieces apart without damaging them--the
> screws were too hard for a Multimaster to cut and had enough thread in
> both pieces to hold like the head was still on.
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> If you did not use an impact driver to remove the screws you may want to
> consider using one. While they are extremely strong compared to the
> typical
> same voltage drill, the impact action is much easier on the fastener.
> Because the torque is not constant it gives the fastener a chance relax a
> bit.

Used an impact driver going in and going out.


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


Crappy Spax screws I guess. I know screws don't hold up well out doors
unless specifically suited but I have used regular square drive out doors
and several years later they are still OK.

"Limp Arbor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> SWMBO wants a fence.
>
> Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
> the winter.
>
> Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
> neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>
> Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
> the fence will be.
>
> Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>
>
> I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
> dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
> post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
> nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
> about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>
> I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>
> What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?

LA:

I haven't checked the wind loading on a shadowbox
arrangement but I think it will be quite low, so there
should be no problem there.

Spacing in front will be a factor in the above and
determine how much--or if-- someone can see into
your yard on a diagonal perspective. I'd use screws
Others have discussed options.

Depending on how long you intend to grace the
planet with your presence, own the property or the
wetness in you climate, you may want to think on
the heavier-duty, metal U post hangers to fix the
posts in concrete. You balance the additonal outlay
against your use. Whatever you do, taper the concret
down and away from any installet elements for
drainage.

Certain HD stores also stock plastic-wood composite
pickets in russet and faded green. No painting allowed
and termites forbidden. They're about a dollar to half that
again more than natural competition. If they weigh less
and you check out the other specs, it might earn a pondering.

As to nail guns, a great warranty and good reviews
would be more significant to me than grand praise
and a short guarantee. If you buy a gun from some
independents, they will sometimes make you a good
package deal when you buy a large nail order concurrently,
hoping you'll be in every week for more nails. But,
check around.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

Have to find a way to create a sliding mount for the horizontal supports for
the fence boards. Doesn't that stuff expand about 2 inches in 5 feet in the
sun?

LOL

------------

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Unless you want to be a slave to a wooden fence, build it out of
reclaimed HDPE.

Here is one source in Green Bay, WI.

http://tinyurl.com/y976voo


Lew

-------------
Limp Arbor" wrote:

> SWMBO wants a fence.

"Limp Arbor" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

SWMBO wants a fence.

Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
the winter.

Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.

Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
the fence will be.

Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.


I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I make a few suggestions? Going to anyway. :~)

I would absolutely run 3 rails however I would and have many times in the
past run the top rail on top of the posts to protect the tops of the posts
from water and to help prevent bowing in and out from the line of posts. I
would also suggest a treated 1x6 rot board run at the bottom of the posts on
the post faces. This will prevent the pickets from setting in the morning
dew every day and prolong the life of the bottoms of the pickets. Stand the
pickets up on that board. That board also really really speeds up picket
installation. No string line to putz with.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I inquired about this with Nailshooter several years ago about the same
thing. He suggested an N88RH Bostitch. It is relatively inexpensive
has/had a great warranty and I have had absolutely no problems with it so
far. A wide variety of nails are easy to come by.

On May 16, 6:44 am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>
> That looks like a dandy post Robert.
>
> I have questions. I typically don't worry about the height of my posts
> until after the concrete has set and then I run a level line and cut the
> tops of the posts. Obviously this would be difficult with these posts. Do
> you however simply pound them in a bit farther into the hole, beyond the
> bottom of the hole to get them even in height?

My fence sets these a solid 24" into concrete. He strings the top and
simply taps them to the right height, not caring of he goes through
the bottom of the hole or not. Without air, it would take many
decades for this fence post to rust enough on the very bottom, buried
end of the dirt.

BUT; we have a lot of areas with limestone bedrock not too far beneath
the layer of topsoil. If he can get them in 16" or so, he doesn't
mind. He slips bolts into the holes to provide more grab. He puts
them through the punched holes with a nut to hold them, and the bolts
going into two different directions so it looks like a porcupine.

If he has an errant post that is too tall, he has one guy steady it,
and then he cuts through it with a 7" grinder with a metal cutting
abrasive blade. The steel is pretty soft and it just takes him about
three or four minutes to cut through the top to get it to the right
length.


> Also I use quick set concrete so I don't have to stake the posts, they stay
> plum by them selves. Is there any special needs in this regard ? tI seems
> that they might be slightly more likely to tilt off plumb, maybe not.

Nothing different when you set them. The key here is that he uses
regular or fast setting concrete in bags, but mixes in about 1/2
gallon measured, not weighed of this stuff into his concrete:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/423xl8x
It is a product known as Por Rock, and is a cement "setting" product
to set in all kinds of things into concrete. When I was working on
restaurants about a million years ago, we used ot use that stuff to
set chairs and furniture into the slabs. Never saw on fail when done
correctly.

NOTE: he uses a generic Por Rock that is available at Fastenal as
well as the original.

He pours a bit into the hold (6" or so) then puts the rest in the rest
of the mix. He pulls the post up and down to "rod down" the concrete
into the hole. Then he fills it up and does the same thing again.
When he is happy with the position, he fine tunes it and taps the post
in a bit or moves it back and forth. It might move a hair one way or
another, but close enough for fencing. And with the Por Rock in it,
it sets up fast. I mean really fast. When he is in a hurry, he will
put almost a gallon into the concrete and he can attach wood
crossmembers on in an hour!

> Do you ever run a top rail that is wide side up?

Yes, and it works like a champ as helps to keep the top part of the
fence from bowing in or out. I can remember which job it was, but
check this out; On a <<new>> fence Alex (fence guy) conned me into
7' centers, not eight. He bought 14' 2X material and cut them in
half. He did the cap rail, the top rail and the bottom rail by
cutting a pile of 14' boards in half. He figured it cut down the time
he had to mess with warping 8' pieces, and he didn't get all the trash
he got with the normal 8' lengths.

The 14' made a lot nicer looking fence and went up FAST. He
outdistanced the picket installers quickly and it was a fast moving
operation to get that fence up. He told me he didn't worry about
bowing with 7' centers, so no 2nd top rail. Just the one on edge like
the middle and top.

But he only goes 7' if it is a <<new>> fence, one he cannot use the
old 8'o.c. holes on, and the contractor or client will spend the extra
money. Just FYI, it only adds two posts on a 55' run Since he
charges $32 a hole/post, the extra sturdiness, and the better looking
fence (hey - it even looks stronger!) make that $64 worth it. On an
overall fence job, this usually adds 4 posts to the overall cost. He
has found though, that no matter how much he screws with it, he can't
get these posts to work well on the corners or on either side of a
gate. He uses a good 4X4s there, and these allow him to easily attach
hardware and hasps.

So the last fence he put up for me where the client wanted a 20 year
wood fence, he used 6X6 treated on the corners (go Alex, go!), metal
posts in the field, and 4X4s on both sides of the two gates. The
client (and me!) were blown away at how sturdy this was. He could
have used 4X4s in the corners, but we got the 6X6 treated for only $15
more a post.

So to recap; we put two more holes in across the back of that house,
and on up each side. That cost us another $128; add in $64 for one
extra field post per side, or another $128. Add in the extra $60 each
for four corners, and the whole (hole?) thing cost me another $316 to
construct one helluva fence.

A regular cedar three rail costs about $30 (round numbers) or so
finished a foot (depending on cedar costs). So at +/- 160 feet at $30
l.f. ($4800) + 2 gates at $80 each, or a total cost of $4960. To get
our version of the municipal fence it only adds $316. This is only a
6% difference, and I have no doubt it adds years to the fence life and
certainly its appearance. The first time I did this I split the cost
with the homeowner so we could both see one up built in this way.
Worth it!

I sell fencing on a cafeteria plan, so they get to decide which
options they want, so they can add as much or as little as they want
to a regular fence bid. That way if I am not immediately competitive,
I can pull out the extras and look apples to apples at the fence cost
with a client. After that I can add what they want. That way I at
least stay in the hunt.

The only other thing we add from time to time is a weed eater board.
This is a piece of 2X8 TYP board that he turns on edge and mounts like
a rail at the bottom of the fence. It sits directly in contact with
the ground, and when installed mowers and grass cutters run their weed
eaters across the TYP instead of the soft cedar. FYI, this add $1.5
to $2 a running foot. Well worth it as today's weed eaters chew up
cedar really fast. We are getting requests for this bottom board more
and more these days.

> I am thinking about running a short temp fence across my covered patio to
> restrict our dog from having the whole back yard. Can these posts simply be
> pounded into the ground so that they can be pulled up later?

No. They make a regular version of this post, and a heavy duty
version. Neither of them can you pound into the ground unless you
used a really short piece. The metal is soft, regardless of which
version you get. If I was going to put in a temp version of fence
with metal posts I would use the old faithful green, ranch style steel
post and rent/buy the driver

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3f94jc8

> Thanks.

Anytime.

Robert

On May 11, 9:50=A0am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> "Limp Arbor" =A0wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> SWMBO wants a fence.
>
> Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
> the winter.
>
> Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
> neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>
> Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
> the fence will be.
>
> Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>
> I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
> dog eared pickets. =A0So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
> post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. =A0Then use six
> nails per picket to put up the pickets. =A0With 160' of fence I'll need
> about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> May I make a few suggestions? =A0Going to anyway. =A0:~)
>
> I would absolutely run 3 rails however I would and have many times in the
> past run the top rail on top of the posts to protect the tops of the post=
s
> from water and to help prevent bowing in and out from the line of posts. =
=A0I
> would also suggest a treated 1x6 rot board run at the bottom of the posts=
on
> the post faces. =A0This will prevent the pickets from setting in the morn=
ing
> dew every day and prolong the life of the bottoms of the pickets. =A0Stan=
d the
> pickets up on that board. =A0That board also really really speeds up pick=
et
> installation. =A0No string line to putz with.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>
> What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> I inquired about this with Nailshooter several years ago about the same
> thing. =A0He suggested an N88RH Bostitch. =A0It is relatively inexpensive
> has/had a great warranty and I have had absolutely no problems with it so
> far. A wide variety of nails are easy to come by.

I agree with Leon on the three 2x4 approach, and the top rail being
attached directly to the posts. When I built our last one I used
galvanized hangers to hang the lower two 2x4's also oriented
horizontally (flat), and they installed pretty quickly.

My personal preference for attaching pickets is coated deck screws.
They can be purchased in color to, more or less, match the wood. I
used a Makita driver and once I got the rhythm down, they went in
pretty quickly; and I installed with the heads just slightly
recessed. But then I have never installed planks with a nailer.
Might work great.

A hint, if you haven't thought of it: Cut a 4 or 5 foot length of 2x4
or scrap. Pound a #16 or #20 framing nail into the same face, about
4-5 inches from each end and clip off the heads. Once you get your
first picket plumb, you can use this simple tool to maintain a
consistent gap between subsequent pickets. You still need to use the
level to check plumb ever 4 to 6 boards, and make small adjustments,
but this worked well. The framing nail will provides something like a
1/8" gap that might expand to 1/4" or more if your boards dry a bit.

RonB

"Morgans" wrote in message news:Fy%[email protected]...

"Leon" wrote

LOL, No kidding. If you have not twisted the head off of a particular brand
yet it is only because you have not yet used enough of them.

I must be living right, then. I run in several pounds of screws per month,
and they don't twist off. It helps to choose the right length, and if it is
necessary drill a pilot hole, but usually not.

The place screws usually break is the transition from threaded to
non-threaded shank. These screws seem to have a more gradual transition,
and do not have such a highly stressed area. For me, twisted off heads are
mainly a thing of the past.

I have no idea what brand they are. I get them at a Mom and Pop's type of
lumber yard in bulk bins. They have gone to all torx head, now. I used to
love square drive, but now am hooked on Torx.

-- Jim in NC


Not saying that you have not had good luck, but no one screw manufacturer
makes every screw perfect. I too have gone through thousands and at an odd
time or another every 4-5 years I break a screw or two. Probably my fault
but the screw was not expected to do anything the previous hundred had not
been used for.

On Sat, 14 May 2011 08:08:18 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>Even HD calls them "fence boards" on other pages. http://goo.gl/aT9pc
>
>Every movie I've ever seen which mentioned a "white picket fence"
>referred to the short, narrow, open-spaced style shown here.
>http://goo.gl/LY8IM
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>Do you believe every thing you see in a movie? ;~)

Of course, as well as believing everything I read on the Internet.
Don't you?


>The key words you mention above, "white picket fence" describes a
>particular type fence and picket.
>
>When I hear cedar picket or PT picket fence I think 1x6x72 dog eared
>pickets.

You also have odd tastes in tools, eschewing HF. ;)

--
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no
distinctively native American criminal class except Congress.
-- Mark Twain

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:18:40 -0700, "Edward Hennessey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Limp Arbor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> SWMBO wants a fence.
>>>
>>> Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
>>> the winter.
>>>
>>> Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
>>> neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>>>
>>> Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
>>> the fence will be.
>>>
>>> Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>>>
>>>
>>> I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
>>> dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
>>> post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
>>> nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
>>> about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>>>
>>> I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>>>
>>> What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?
>>
>>LA:
>>

LJ:

>>I haven't checked the wind loading on a shadowbox
>>arrangement but I think it will be quite low, so there
>>should be no problem there.
>
> I'd think they'd have nearly the same loading as the solid fence, say
> 90% as a WAG.

Though nothing is at hand to detail the point, one
time I put up a fence where the goal was to minimize
backside air turbulence on a space "roofed" by shade
cloth. A treatment turned up that dicussed various
design alternatives in terms of numbers and dispersion
patterns that were comprehensive and
surprisingly different, pivoting around
things like seemingly minor changes in paling spacing.
It was impressive. I obeyed. And it paid off like a charm.
That experience implies the data for something
more mainstream like wind load will be out
there. Whether that is important to the OP's location...
who knows?
>
>
>>Spacing in front will be a factor in the above and
>>determine how much--or if-- someone can see into
>>your yard on a diagonal perspective. I'd use screws
>>Others have discussed options.
>
> Cat/rat/coon/possum/ferret-friendly fences.

Not to print the name of "rattlesnake" in that
company.
>
>
>>Depending on how long you intend to grace the
>>planet with your presence, own the property or the
>>wetness in you climate, you may want to think on
>>the heavier-duty, metal U post hangers to fix the
>>posts in concrete. You balance the additonal outlay
>>against your use. Whatever you do, taper the concret
>>down and away from any installet elements for
>>drainage.
>
> If I were building a fence for myself today, I's use steel set into
> concrete to hold the posts proud of the ground altogether. Today's PT
> lumber is pure SHIT. The treating only goes 1/8" into the wood, and
> any cut exposes untreated timber to the elements. Then they did away
> with the brown-dyed preservative and made it illegal to color or
> concoct your own brew for the same use. Goddamned EPA...

Ditto. Ditto. Before I went metal, I paid a visit to
the local Parks and Recreation people after observing
them using substantial brackets and heavy angle with bolts on
posts. A kind man said their failure rate--if not allowed
to rust--was a number you could count in percent with
a few fingers. That's in an abusive, public environment.
Sure, it's another 5-6 or so frogskins a post.
The alternative method tolls a bit more for replacement.

Another factor is to cure the concrete for as long as you can
against shrinkage and cracking. Don't load it for awhile. Try
to avoid hot weather when pouring. Cover it with an absorptive
cloth. Put a gallon jug of water on it with some weeping pinholes
and wet it periodically if that is called for. It's a drag. But that
will be the end of it.
>
>
>>Certain HD stores also stock plastic-wood composite
>>pickets in russet and faded green. No painting allowed
>>and termites forbidden. They're about a dollar to half that
>>again more than natural competition. If they weigh less
>>and you check out the other specs, it might earn a pondering.
>
> They're all 2 to 3 times the weight of kiln dried lumber, Ed.

Good to know, Larry.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

On May 12, 7:40=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:15:20 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Nailer?
> >.
> >.
> >I hardly know her!
>
> When has that ever stopped ya? =A0Usually, it's better that way.
> No gnawing off of the arm to get away when you sober up and wake in
> the morning, eh? =A0<wink, wink, nudge, nudge, knowwhatImean?>
>
> --
> If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
> we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
> little remains that we cannot do. =A0 =A0 =A0 -- Samuel Butler

An acquaintance of mine stated: "I have never gone to bed with an ugly
woman, but sure have woken up with some..."

On May 13, 7:00 am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what diameter
> posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the terminal sized
> posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.

Go to google, click on "Images" for your search.

Type in " postmaster fence posts " and you will see the exact product
I am talking about. Don't think these are flimsy. They are really
heavy duty and almost 3/16" thick. They are galvanized, can be
covered or painted.

You screw on the rails with deck screws, and nail the pickets. It
makes a very strong fence and the back side with the screws can be
covered up with a picket or small trim piece over the rail itself,
giving the appearance of being a wood post. My fence guy has been
using this for his municipal work for years now, and everyone seems
quite pleased.

He still uses cedar posts or 4X4 recycled plastic posts (unless I want
to spring for the metal) on either side of a gate. Like the old
timers did around here for years, when using cedar 4X4s, I take
roofing mastic (tar, plastic cement) and trowel on a thin layer about
3" from the bottom of the post before setting them in concrete to help
their water resistance and resistance to bugs/water at the point of
contact to air at the soil level.

When using this system for the state/county/muninciple guys, they love
this system as they can easily replace damage sections by simply
pulling out the screws and letting whole sections drop. It also makes
it easy to remove and replace if a section has to be removed for
machine access like a skid steer loader.

If you have a McCoy's in Houston, you should have them there. That's
where the "Postmaster" fence post products are available here.

Robert

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Sat, 14 May 2011 08:08:18 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>Even HD calls them "fence boards" on other pages. http://goo.gl/aT9pc
>
>Every movie I've ever seen which mentioned a "white picket fence"
>referred to the short, narrow, open-spaced style shown here.
>http://goo.gl/LY8IM
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>Do you believe every thing you see in a movie? ;~)

Of course, as well as believing everything I read on the Internet.
Don't you?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Well heck yeah! LOL

On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:18:40 -0700, "Edward Hennessey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Limp Arbor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> SWMBO wants a fence.
>>
>> Phase one is done - cutting down all of the pine trees that died over
>> the winter.
>>
>> Phase two is done - SWMBO telling me I'm an idiot for not making the
>> neighbor pay me for his trees I cut down and paid to have chipped.
>>
>> Phase three is done - found the property markers and roughed out where
>> the fence will be.
>>
>> Phase four is done - Priced out the pressure treated lumber.
>>
>>
>> I am going with a board-on-board or shadowbox fence with the 5/8x6"
>> dog eared pickets. So my plan is to run three 8' 2x4s between each
>> post laying flat so the rails are flush with the posts. Then use six
>> nails per picket to put up the pickets. With 160' of fence I'll need
>> about 400 pickets and 2,400 nails.
>>
>> I have a compressor with plenty of hose to get to the fence so...
>>
>> What kind/brand of gun do I need and what kind of nails/staples?
>
>LA:
>
>I haven't checked the wind loading on a shadowbox
>arrangement but I think it will be quite low, so there
>should be no problem there.

I'd think they'd have nearly the same loading as the solid fence, say
90% as a WAG.


>Spacing in front will be a factor in the above and
>determine how much--or if-- someone can see into
>your yard on a diagonal perspective. I'd use screws
>Others have discussed options.

Cat/rat/coon/possum/ferret-friendly fences.


>Depending on how long you intend to grace the
>planet with your presence, own the property or the
>wetness in you climate, you may want to think on
>the heavier-duty, metal U post hangers to fix the
>posts in concrete. You balance the additonal outlay
>against your use. Whatever you do, taper the concret
>down and away from any installet elements for
>drainage.

If I were building a fence for myself today, I's use steel set into
concrete to hold the posts proud of the ground altogether. Today's PT
lumber is pure SHIT. The treating only goes 1/8" into the wood, and
any cut exposes untreated timber to the elements. Then they did away
with the brown-dyed preservative and made it illegal to color or
concoct your own brew for the same use. Goddamned EPA...


>Certain HD stores also stock plastic-wood composite
>pickets in russet and faded green. No painting allowed
>and termites forbidden. They're about a dollar to half that
>again more than natural competition. If they weigh less
>and you check out the other specs, it might earn a pondering.

They're all 2 to 3 times the weight of kiln dried lumber, Ed.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

wrote in message
news:ff52b372-bece-47a4-9036-da7d74d1f388@w24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

On May 13, 7:00 am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what diameter
> posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the terminal sized
> posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.

Go to google, click on "Images" for your search.

Type in " postmaster fence posts " and you will see the exact product
I am talking about. Don't think these are flimsy. They are really
heavy duty and almost 3/16" thick. They are galvanized, can be
covered or painted.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

3/16" thick, how do you lift them? ;~)

You screw on the rails with deck screws, and nail the pickets. It
makes a very strong fence and the back side with the screws can be
covered up with a picket or small trim piece over the rail itself,
giving the appearance of being a wood post. My fence guy has been
using this for his municipal work for years now, and everyone seems
quite pleased.

He still uses cedar posts or 4X4 recycled plastic posts (unless I want
to spring for the metal) on either side of a gate. Like the old
timers did around here for years, when using cedar 4X4s, I take
roofing mastic (tar, plastic cement) and trowel on a thin layer about
3" from the bottom of the post before setting them in concrete to help
their water resistance and resistance to bugs/water at the point of
contact to air at the soil level.

When using this system for the state/county/muninciple guys, they love
this system as they can easily replace damage sections by simply
pulling out the screws and letting whole sections drop. It also makes
it easy to remove and replace if a section has to be removed for
machine access like a skid steer loader.

If you have a McCoy's in Houston, you should have them there. That's
where the "Postmaster" fence post products are available here.

Robert
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Thank you Robert, we do have a McCoy's in the area, Rosenberg IIRC. I'll
look into that.

On Fri, 13 May 2011 11:52:59 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>On Fri, 13 May 2011 07:04:18 -0500, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>Mentioning that materials don't last these days, my dad has a gate in his
>>atrium that was built in 1974. I have had to replace the cedar posts on
>>both sides but the gate only looks a couple of years old. 37 years ain't
>>bad for a cedar picket gate, 8" wide pickets at that.
>
>You guys use the term "picket" too loosely for my tastes. They're
>usually 42" tall or less and 1x3 or 1x4". Like this:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Classic_Picket_Fence.JPG
>
>Are you guys talking about plain old straight (or dog-eared) fencing
>_boards_?
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>Picket, the part that provides the privacy. Check out what your local
>lumber yard or Borg calls them. A picket does not have size constraints.
>
>http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?keyword=picket&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
>
>scroll down.

Weird.


>http://www.lowes.com/SearchCatalogDisplay?Ntt=picket&langId=-1&storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&N=0
>
>scroll down

Ditto.


Even HD calls them "fence boards" on other pages. http://goo.gl/aT9pc

Every movie I've ever seen which mentioned a "white picket fence"
referred to the short, narrow, open-spaced style shown here.
http://goo.gl/LY8IM

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

Mentioning that materials don't last these days, my dad has a gate in his
atrium that was built in 1974. I have had to replace the cedar posts on
both sides but the gate only looks a couple of years old. 37 years ain't
bad for a cedar picket gate, 8" wide pickets at that.

wrote in message
news:ff52b372-bece-47a4-9036-da7d74d1f388@w24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

On May 13, 7:00 am, "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> I assume you use the round metal posts, thinking chain link, what diameter
> posts are you using? The normal post or do you use the terminal sized
> posts. I'm thinking the terminal posts.

Go to google, click on "Images" for your search.

Type in " postmaster fence posts " and you will see the exact product
I am talking about. Don't think these are flimsy. They are really
heavy duty and almost 3/16" thick. They are galvanized, can be
covered or painted.

You screw on the rails with deck screws, and nail the pickets. It
makes a very strong fence and the back side with the screws can be
covered up with a picket or small trim piece over the rail itself,
giving the appearance of being a wood post. My fence guy has been
using this for his municipal work for years now, and everyone seems
quite pleased.

He still uses cedar posts or 4X4 recycled plastic posts (unless I want
to spring for the metal) on either side of a gate. Like the old
timers did around here for years, when using cedar 4X4s, I take
roofing mastic (tar, plastic cement) and trowel on a thin layer about
3" from the bottom of the post before setting them in concrete to help
their water resistance and resistance to bugs/water at the point of
contact to air at the soil level.

When using this system for the state/county/muninciple guys, they love
this system as they can easily replace damage sections by simply
pulling out the screws and letting whole sections drop. It also makes
it easy to remove and replace if a section has to be removed for
machine access like a skid steer loader.

If you have a McCoy's in Houston, you should have them there. That's
where the "Postmaster" fence post products are available here.

Robert
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

That looks like a dandy post Robert.

I have questions. I typically don't worry about the height of my posts
until after the concrete has set and then I run a level line and cut the
tops of the posts. Obviously this would be difficult with these posts. Do
you however simply pound them in a bit farther into the hole, beyond the
bottom of the hole to get them even in height?

Also I use quick set concrete so I don't have to stake the posts, they stay
plum by them selves. Is there any special needs in this regard ? tI seems
that they might be slightly more likely to tilt off plumb, maybe not.

Do you ever run a top rail that is wide side up?

I am thinking about running a short temp fence across my covered patio to
restrict our dog from having the whole back yard. Can these posts simply be
pounded into the ground so that they can be pulled up later?

Thanks.

I wouldn't.
Fencing is mostly vertical construction,water drains quite well and snow
sheds, unlike a deck. Look at frequency of staining required.


---
"Puckdropper" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I took some PT 2x6 decking up a few years ago that had been screwed down.
Heads breaking off and spinning freely were a common happening. Some
pieces would come off with a large prybar, but others had to be cut off.

I'd expect the same thing to occur with a fence.

Puckdropper