On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:05:41 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>> Speaking of which, at a tangent, we had been considering granite for our
>>kitchen. Now, however, it appears that quartz is also a viable material
>>and less porous than even granite. However, when doing a search for quartz
>>countertops, or even "natural" quartz countertops, I get all sorts of hits
>>in which claims are made for things like "silestone" and a couple of other
>>products are "natural quartz" One has to read the fine print really,
>>really closely to identify that these are composite materials using
>>"natural quartz" in some sort of binder. Yet the big print yells "NATURAL
>>QUARTZ"! Gettin' kind of frustrating trying to find some web pages with
>>examples of real quartz countertops -- and by real I mean, honest, no
>>kidding, cut from the quarry solid quartz -- not something ground up and
>>reformulated with new colors in an attractive plastic binder.
>
>I don't think that quartz grows big enough for counter tops. In a
>past life, I ran a quartz crystal plant for quartz crystals used in
>communications equipment. The raw quartz crystals were in the 1-1
>1/2" diameter and 6" length range.
>
>Alan Bierbaum
>
>web site: http://www.calanb.com
single quartz crystals do get pretty damn big in nature, but they're
rare. quartzite, though- cryptocrystalline quartz- can be any size, up
to and including a whole mountainside. this is prolly the stuff that
these counters would be made of. and yes, it would make a dandy
counter....
On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:36:40 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Eric Ryder wrote:
>>Another product "Amerite?" is available from the maker
>
>
>Avonite.
>
>UA100
Yep, and the Avonite is a polyester based product and needs different
treatment than Corian, which is acrylic based.
<watson-who had to go to Avonite school, too - but doesn't remember if
they only let licensed fabricators buy it - because soon after Watson
learned all about Corian and Avonite - everybody started to spec
granite - sigh...>
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:50:49 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:19:43 GMT, Mark & Juanita
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:05:41 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>snip
>>>>
... snip
>>Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
>><http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
>>thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
>>
... more snip
>
>If you read the cited articles; you will notice that they talk of
>"engineered stone" - this is not a natural product; it is fabricated
>by some type of glue and stone and quartz particles.
>
>
>Alan Bierbaum
Yep, you're right. After more careful inspection, it appears that this
is also engineered material. Funny thing, you really have to dig to find
that, looking at the first parts of their web pages, you get quotes such
as, "CAMBRIA is pure natural Quartz stone mined out of the earth. It has
the look and feel of granite with superior performance." That's from the
Product Info page, From the how we compare page, in the table it lists
both Cambria and Granite as "Natural Stone". Yeah, "natural" as in ground
up with epoxy binders -- just like MDF is "natural wood". Kind of
misleading.
Thanks for helping set me straight -- looks like granite is still the top
of choice if one desires natural stone that is less porous than marble.
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> One thing that Cambria states is that they manufacture their product in
> Minnesota (if that makes a difference to you). [Still not comfortable with
> their claims that Cambria is "Natural Stone" though]
Use frickin granite. Sealing it is trivial.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:16:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent cementing
>>>using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be unsatisfactory in any
>>>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
>>
>>
>>The problem that I'm having with this is that you are fixating on the
>>chemistry, to the exclusion of other considerations.
>
>
> That's because the chemistry is supposedly available only from DuPont. The
> rest one can figure out one way or another.
Given a drop of their magic elixir it would be an easy job to determine
what their seam kit holds. FTIR Mass Spectroscopy and a few other
analytical tools will tell all.
RB
>
>
>>What about the selection of the sheets for color matching?
>>
>>What about the proper type and preparation of the substrate?
>
>
>>What about the choice of choice of acceptable methods to cut the
>>sheets?
>>
>>What about the proper tolerances for straightness and the gap between
>>joined sheets?
>>
>>What about the proper clamping pressure at the seam?
>>
>>What about how much to overfill the seam and what techniques are best
>>to deal with that?
>>
>>What about the proper radius that's allowed in the cutouts?
>>
>>In areas where cutouts are for stovetops, there is a specific 3M tape
>>that is used as a backer at the seam - what kind is it?
>>
>>What about the mixing time of the seam kit? Should you knead by hand,
>>or put the tube in the clamp on you half-sheet sander, and run the
>>sander for how long?
>
>
> Who's got a seam kit? And you mean that it's not labelled?
>
>
>>Speaking of sanders, what is the best type to use and what grits
>>should you start with?
>>
>>What type of abrasive is best?
>>
>>If you want to bring it up to a gloss, what grits and compounds are
>>used to do this?
>>
>>
>>The above is certainly not an exhaustive listing - merely a friendly
>>warning.
>
>
> Substitute "Jarrah" or "Ipe" for "Corian" in the above and do any of the
> questions change? Do you know the answers to all of them? Does that mean
> that we should not try to make things out of Jarrah or Ipe?
>
> I'm sorry, but the fact that one is going to have to do some experimentation
> to back into the information that duPont _could_ make available at no cost
> to themselves, does not make solid surface impossible for anybody but those
> who have been trained by DuPont to work with, it just means that one has to
> devote the same effort to learning its properties that one does to learning
> the properties of any unfamiliar material.
>
> And what is the cost of a screwed up countertop bond? It's just something
> to fix. It's not like the world ends or anything.
>
> Now, if you really cared about helping people instead of protecting us from
> ourselves then you might provide the benefit of your vast training and
> experience.
>
>
>>Regards,
>>Tom.
>>
>>Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
>>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
>
>
I see nothing in the two links you provided that support your very
incorrect assertion that MMA is an epoxy. There is little similarity
between MMA and epoxy.
RB
Swingman wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
>>>application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
>>>to back - once the joint is closed up.
>>
>>Not quite. From http://www.parksite.com/productgroups/msds/msds_3_42.pdf
>>
>> "The adhesive used to bond sheets of Corian® during fabrication
>
> contains
>
>> methylmethacrylate, or MMA for short."
>>
>>MMA is also a two-part mix, but it's not epoxy.
>
>
> Bullshit ... You can argue semantics/split hairs all day long, but MMA fits
> the accepted definition of "expoxy" as commonly used in the building and
> cabinet trades.
>
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/epoxy
> http://www.epoxysystems.com/mmahom.htm
>
J. Clarke wrote:
> Unisaw A100 wrote:
>
>
>>>Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
>>>theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you
>>>know is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of
>>>thinking that is the only possible way to do it.
>>
>>
>>Wow! How do you breath with your pants so bunched up J.?
>
>
> Coming from someone who is arguing engineering on the basis of religious
> faith (There is only One Good, Right, and True DuPont Way and all other
> paths lead to damnation) that's a laugh.
>
And if you buy that you probably believe that there is no coincidence
between the patents on R-12 running out and the "discovery" that it
contributed to "global warming." We just finished Memorial Day weekend
and lit fires all three nights because it was CCCCold. Global warming???
RB
>
>>UA100
>
>
Epoxy is used to refer to any two-part adhesive system only by those
whose knowledge is so lacking that all they comprehend is that two parts
of something are to be mixed together.
Fortunately the English language is very robust and it affords us the
opportunity when it is important to speak in a manner such that
ambiguities and misunderstandings are kept to a minimum. One of the
ways this is done is to know the definitions of words. What you are
saying is that because someone who didn't know the meaning of the word
"epoxy" and used it to refer to a totally different adhesive "epoxy" has
now been redefined.
It doesn't work that way. "Technical correctness" isn't the issue. If
the words you utter don't have a universally understood meaning (a
definition) then you might just as well communicate with monosyllabic
grunts.
Proper use of the language is frequently an indicator of one's
education, knowledge and intelligence. Improper use of the language
is... well I let you complete the thought.
RB
Swingman wrote:
> "RB" wrote in message
>
>>I see nothing in the two links you provided that support your very
>>incorrect assertion that MMA is an epoxy. There is little similarity
>>between MMA and epoxy.
>
>
> I agree ... you do "see nothing".
>
> It could be that you either didn't read, or that you jumped so quickly to
> correct, like some of the other "technically correct" around here, that you
> failed to understand/grasp what was said: That "epoxy" is a term commonly
> used for the two part adhesives/fillers used by those installing solid
> surface countertops, whether these mixtures be technically "epoxy" or not
> ... you even witness a licensed Corian installer make the EXACT same
> reference in a previous post ... which proves my original point, whether you
> agree or not.
>
> Now, I used to think that "Political Correctness" was a pox on the cultural
> landscape, but damn if it doesn't pale in comparison with the petty
> "Technical Correctness" gleefully wielded hereabouts at every opportunity as
> one-upmanship.
>
J. Clarke wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>
>>"RB" wrote in message
>>
>>>I see nothing in the two links you provided that support your very
>>>incorrect assertion that MMA is an epoxy. There is little similarity
>>>between MMA and epoxy.
>>
>>I agree ... you do "see nothing".
>>
>>It could be that you either didn't read, or that you jumped so quickly to
>>correct, like some of the other "technically correct" around here, that
>>you failed to understand/grasp what was said: That "epoxy" is a term
>>commonly used for the two part adhesives/fillers used by those installing
>>solid surface countertops, whether these mixtures be technically "epoxy"
>>or not ... you even witness a licensed Corian installer make the EXACT
>>same reference in a previous post ... which proves my original point,
>>whether you agree or not.
>>
>>Now, I used to think that "Political Correctness" was a pox on the
>>cultural landscape, but damn if it doesn't pale in comparison with the
>>petty "Technical Correctness" gleefully wielded hereabouts at every
>>opportunity as one-upmanship.
>
>
> If you think that "Technical correctness" is mere one-upsmanship, one these
> days reality is going to bite you in the ass bigtime. With any luck you'll
> survive the experience with your limbs intact.
I favor genetic selection.
RB
>
Rick Samuel <[email protected]> writes:
>I work with epoxy and glass & graphite fibers. Epoxy is
>almost $1000/qt, fibers about $100/lb. Rings
>weigh around 350-400lbs. Yes, there is only ONE way to do
>some things.
What epoxy are you buying for $1000 a quart!? I buy epoxy for $30 to $50
a quart unless I need something special.
Brian Elfert
On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:19:43 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
>Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
><http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
>thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
>
<SNIP>
IT isn't slabs of solid quartz. From their website:
"Is CAMBRIA made or manufactured in a plant?
The CAMBRIA facility produces natural quartz into slabs. We take pure
natural quartz mined out of the earth and combine it with a small
amount of pigment and resin to create a slab of uncommon beauty and
strength. This is done in our facility in LeSueur, Minnesota, the only
one of its kind in the United States. By recombining the quartz in our
facility, we are able to recreate the slabs to make them completely
non-porous."
On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:00:56 GMT, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:15:27 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>
>> This is exactly why Dupont licenses installers and fabricators. So that
>> people don't screw things up and ruin the brand name in the process.
>>
>> <watson-licensed since shortly after earl flynn died.>
>
>Was he related to Errol Flynn?
You know, they often call him Speedo but his real name is Mr. Earl.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
>Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
>theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you know
>is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of thinking
>that is the only possible way to do it.
Wow! How do you breath with your pants so bunched up J.?
UA100
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:50:49 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:19:43 GMT, Mark & Juanita
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:05:41 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
> >>><[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>snip
> >>>>
> ... snip
> >>Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
> >><http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
> >>thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
> >>
> ... more snip
> >
> >If you read the cited articles; you will notice that they talk of
> >"engineered stone" - this is not a natural product; it is fabricated
> >by some type of glue and stone and quartz particles.
> >
> >
> >Alan Bierbaum
>
> Yep, you're right. After more careful inspection, it appears that this
> is also engineered material. Funny thing, you really have to dig to find
> that, looking at the first parts of their web pages, you get quotes such
> as, "CAMBRIA is pure natural Quartz stone mined out of the earth. It has
> the look and feel of granite with superior performance." That's from the
> Product Info page, From the how we compare page, in the table it lists
> both Cambria and Granite as "Natural Stone". Yeah, "natural" as in ground
> up with epoxy binders -- just like MDF is "natural wood". Kind of
> misleading.
>
> Thanks for helping set me straight -- looks like granite is still the top
> of choice if one desires natural stone that is less porous than marble.
I've been researching counter top materials for some time. Info I have
is that ALL the quartz products are made by the same process, on the
same patented Italian made machines. Dupont has one in Canada, they
charge more for their product. Silestone and Cesar Stone, perhaps
others by now, are the same thing. One product brochure, Silestone I
believe, stated there is 90% Quartz and 10% binder material in the
product, making it harder and less porous than granite. Needs no
sealer, will not stain. Can't be scratched with a knife. MAY burn
under high enough temp., not sure what that is. This will be my choice
when I get around to our kitchen, expecting it to outlast me!
On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:54:49 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>>The point is that unless there's something I'm missing anybody with a can of
>>methylene chloride and a power sander don't NEED no steenkeeng SEAM KIT.
>Okee dokee, if you say so.
>UA100
This is exactly why Dupont licenses installers and fabricators. So
that people don't screw things up and ruin the brand name in the
process.
<watson-licensed since shortly after earl flynn died.>
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
[email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:22:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>
> snip
>
>
>>Good try. Shame you don't understand what you're reading. For example
>>"when PMMA segregated from the epoxy matrix during curing, it had no
>>influence on the crosslinking of the epoxy phase". Right there in your
>>own quote it is clearly stated that PMMA is different from epoxy.
>
>
>
> John...
>
>
> I think that that WAS his point....
If so, I apologize, I'm losing track of the players in this discussion.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:22:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
snip
>Good try. Shame you don't understand what you're reading. For example
>"when PMMA segregated from the epoxy matrix during curing, it had no
>influence on the crosslinking of the epoxy phase". Right there in your own
>quote it is clearly stated that PMMA is different from epoxy.
John...
I think that that WAS his point....
Tom Watson wrote:
>If you do not understand the relevance of the above information to
>your question about why joining an acrylic based product like Corian
>is different than joining acrylic aquaria, et al - then I was correct
>in my assumption that I own small appliances that are smarter than you
>are.
Describe how small.
UA100
"RB" wrote in message ...
> Epoxy is used to refer to any two-part adhesive system only by those
> whose knowledge is so lacking that all they comprehend is that two parts
> of something are to be mixed together.
Precisely! See, that wasn't so difficult, was it? ... and it dovetails
nicely witth my remarked upon "common usage" of the term, doncha think?.
BTW, to be "technically correct" there are really no "dovetails", as such,
in the above sentence, but you now get the idea of common usage, right?
> Fortunately the English language ...
<snip>
And unfortunately, anyone with a keyboard, and delusions of superiority, can
pollute a woodworking forum with sanctimonious crap like the snippage.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:15:27 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:
>
>
>
>>This is exactly why Dupont licenses installers and fabricators. So that
>>people don't screw things up and ruin the brand name in the process.
>>
>><watson-licensed since shortly after earl flynn died.>
>
>
> Was he related to Errol Flynn?
>
Leon Errol.
IIRC, most companies only sell to authorized installers and
distributors. Maybe that has changed, now that so many different types
are being sold. They don't want amateurs trying to work with the stuff.
But a few years back, I found a place that sold sheets. The max size
was 18x48. Maybe you could try looking in the back of home improvement
mags, that how I found my place. I'm not sure if they are still
around.... Mark L.
[email protected] wrote:
> I want to have a go at using a solid surface counter top on cabinets
> I'm building. Can anybody tell me if I can buy this stuff by the
> sheet?
> Mike
On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:08:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I see. So the standard solvent-cementing procedure that holds up in
>aquaria, aircraft, spacecraft, and numerous other places where acrylic
>under stresses far greater than any likely to be encountered in a blasted
>countertop is used will "have no strength" in Corian? Now why is that?
Damn, this place is getting tiresome.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
J. Clarke wrote:
>Coming from someone who is arguing engineering on the basis of religious
>faith (There is only One Good, Right, and True DuPont Way and all other
>paths lead to damnation) that's a laugh.
Yah ya got me there on that one Skippy. What I really
wanted to say/should have said is, the seam kits from DuPont
work. Now, I'm sure what it is you have going at your end
would work for you but why would I ever want to risk
warrantee just because you told me so? You know what I
mean?
In other words, I'll stay with the tried and true onna
'count of I know it works. You on the other hand are here
without credentials and as far as I know you're as brain
dead, or as full of shit, as guys like Woody when he's
giving out 'lektrikal advice (advise in wreckspeak).
UA100, who is really only hanging onto this one for sport,
no really, I am...
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:08:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I see. So the standard solvent-cementing procedure that holds up in
>>aquaria, aircraft, spacecraft, and numerous other places where acrylic
>>under stresses far greater than any likely to be encountered in a blasted
>>countertop is used will "have no strength" in Corian? Now why is that?
>
> Damn, this place is getting tiresome.
In other words being asked to question your assumptions makes you
uncomfortable?
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Reread the thread and identify the post in which anyone suggested that
someone with access to the seam kit not use it.
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>Coming from someone who is arguing engineering on the basis of religious
>>faith (There is only One Good, Right, and True DuPont Way and all other
>>paths lead to damnation) that's a laugh.
>
>
> Yah ya got me there on that one Skippy.
Good of you to admit it to Skippy, whoever or whatever Skippy might be. But
what makes you believe that this "Skippy" gives a damn?
> What I really
> wanted to say/should have said is, the seam kits from DuPont
> work.
Who has disputed this? The issue is not their performance but their
availability.
> Now, I'm sure what it is you have going at your end
> would work for you but why would I ever want to risk
> warrantee just because you told me so?
Who has told you to "risk warrantee"?
> You know what I mean?
If you had paid attention to what _I_ meant this discussion would not have
taken place, but you chose to ignore the points being raised and instead
get all threatened and defensive.
There are, since this point has clearly gone right by you, people in the
world who can get Corian but can't get the seam kit, and who for whatever
reason want to bond the stuff. Since they aren't certified installers
there is no warrantee even if they use the seam kit but they may not care
about that any more than they care that there is no warrantee on a piece of
pine. My comments were addressed at the needs of this group, who cannot
get your seam kit and canot get your warrantee and to whom both are thus
irrelevant.
Now, do you have anything _constructive_ to say to this group other than
"don't do it because it's not the DuPont Way"?
> In other words, I'll stay with the tried and true onna
> 'count of I know it works.
This is certainly a reasonable course of action.
> You on the other hand are here
> without credentials and as far as I know you're as brain
> dead, or as full of shit, as guys like Woody when he's
> giving out 'lektrikal advice (advise in wreckspeak).
You are also here without "credentials" (and don't bother to try to post
them unless you can (a) prove that they are valid and (b) prove that you
are the person to whom they were issued) and give every appearance of being
insuffiiciently literate to figure out that a discussion of alternatives to
the seam kit for those who cannot get the seam kit is not advocacy of
abandonment of the seam kit by those who have access to it.
However, now I understand--you must be new to USENET--nobody gives a damn
about your "credentials" if you can't defend your argument. And so far the
only defense you have given of your argument is that "it's not the DuPont
Way".
> UA100, who is really only hanging onto this one for sport,
> no really, I am...
Sure you are.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Several years ago, I had thoughts of several craft and scroll saw projects
using Corian. I was unable to buy Corian, so those projects fell of the
project list.
We are having our kitchen re-modeled and last Thursday when the Corian man
was here to make templates for our countertops, he said his company does
sell the Corian now. However, he said they will not/can not sell the glue
that allows seamless countertops to be fabricated. This seems like a change
from what I had been told several years ago. II have not stopped by his
company to buy any Corian to verify his story. Maybe later this year I
resurrect those old projects.....
Jack
"Mark L." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> IIRC, most companies only sell to authorized installers and
> distributors. Maybe that has changed, now that so many different types
> are being sold. They don't want amateurs trying to work with the stuff.
> But a few years back, I found a place that sold sheets. The max size
> was 18x48. Maybe you could try looking in the back of home improvement
> mags, that how I found my place. I'm not sure if they are still
> around.... Mark L.
>
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I want to have a go at using a solid surface counter top on cabinets
> > I'm building. Can anybody tell me if I can buy this stuff by the
> > sheet?
> > Mike
>
Tom Watson wrote:
> On 31 May 2004 12:01:16 -0700, [email protected]
> ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>> It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
>>> application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
>>> to back - once the joint is closed up.
>>
>>Not quite. From http://www.parksite.com/productgroups/msds/msds_3_42.pdf
>>
>> "The adhesive used to bond sheets of Corian® during fabrication
>> contains methylmethacrylate, or MMA for short."
>>
>>MMA is also a two-part mix, but it's not epoxy.
>
>
> "What Is Methyl Methacrylate?
> MMA stands for Methylmethacrylate. It is a resin which is cured with a
> small amount of peroxide. MMA can be soft (like contact lenses) or
> hard (like Plexi Glass).
>
> Why Is Methyl Methacrylate Better than Conventional Epoxies?
> With MMA you are ready for the next step in less than one hour! This
> means jobs can be completed in less time than ever before possible
> with conventional epoxies."
Now, what point do you think you're making here? Are you suggesting that
something being compared to "conventional epoxies" implies that it is an
"unconventional epoxy"? Or are you agreeing that it's not an epoxy? Or
what?
Because it's not an epoxy any way you cut it.
<http://www.netcomposites.com/education.asp?sequence=12> gives a brief
rundown on the chemical structure of epoxies. Compare that with
<http://chemistry.about.com/library/graphics/blmma.htm> for methyl
methacrylate.
> http://www.florock.net/ulfcar/
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On 31 May 2004 12:01:16 -0700, [email protected]
([email protected]) wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
>> application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
>> to back - once the joint is closed up.
>
>Not quite. From http://www.parksite.com/productgroups/msds/msds_3_42.pdf
>
> "The adhesive used to bond sheets of Corian® during fabrication contains
> methylmethacrylate, or MMA for short."
>
>MMA is also a two-part mix, but it's not epoxy.
"What Is Methyl Methacrylate?
MMA stands for Methylmethacrylate. It is a resin which is cured with a
small amount of peroxide. MMA can be soft (like contact lenses) or
hard (like Plexi Glass).
Why Is Methyl Methacrylate Better than Conventional Epoxies?
With MMA you are ready for the next step in less than one hour! This
means jobs can be completed in less time than ever before possible
with conventional epoxies."
http://www.florock.net/ulfcar/
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
> > It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
> > application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
> > to back - once the joint is closed up.
>
> Not quite. From http://www.parksite.com/productgroups/msds/msds_3_42.pdf
>
> "The adhesive used to bond sheets of Corian® during fabrication
contains
> methylmethacrylate, or MMA for short."
>
> MMA is also a two-part mix, but it's not epoxy.
Bullshit ... You can argue semantics/split hairs all day long, but MMA fits
the accepted definition of "expoxy" as commonly used in the building and
cabinet trades.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/epoxy
http://www.epoxysystems.com/mmahom.htm
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
John Flatley wrote:
> Several years ago, I had thoughts of several craft and scroll saw projects
> using Corian. I was unable to buy Corian, so those projects fell of the
> project list.
>
> We are having our kitchen re-modeled and last Thursday when the Corian man
> was here to make templates for our countertops, he said his company does
> sell the Corian now. However, he said they will not/can not sell the glue
> that allows seamless countertops to be fabricated. This seems like a
> change
> from what I had been told several years ago. II have not stopped by his
> company to buy any Corian to verify his story. Maybe later this year I
> resurrect those old projects.....
I find myself wondering what's so important about the glue.
Solvent-cementing of acrylic is hardly any deep dark secret, and I
understand that working the stuff makes plenty of dust for filler--if it
doesn't, one can always take a belt sander to a scrap.
> Jack
>
>
> "Mark L." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> IIRC, most companies only sell to authorized installers and
>> distributors. Maybe that has changed, now that so many different types
>> are being sold. They don't want amateurs trying to work with the stuff.
>> But a few years back, I found a place that sold sheets. The max size
>> was 18x48. Maybe you could try looking in the back of home improvement
>> mags, that how I found my place. I'm not sure if they are still
>> around.... Mark L.
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> > I want to have a go at using a solid surface counter top on cabinets
>> > I'm building. Can anybody tell me if I can buy this stuff by the
>> > sheet?
>> > Mike
>>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> >Bullshit ... You can argue semantics/split hairs all day long, but MMA
fits
> >the accepted definition of "expoxy" as commonly used in the building and
> >cabinet trades.
> >
> >http://www.thefreedictionary.com/epoxy
>
> nontechnical source, and just plain wrong.
As I said, you can argue semantics and and split hairs, but common usage, as
TW use clearly indicated, was the point.
> >http://www.epoxysystems.com/mmahom.htm
> nowhere on that page does it say that MMA is epoxy.
...and conversely, no where does it say it is not, so if your argument is
with common usage of the term, you're basically pissing in the wind.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
On Mon, 31 May 2004 15:58:44 -0700, bridger wrote:
> wow. J. Clarke sure knows how to put his foot in it, eh?
JCIAFT - disappeared from my reader shortly after he first showed up and
kicked that freshly swept pile of sawdust all over the place.
-Doug
--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 08:23:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>In other words being asked to question your assumptions makes you
>>uncomfortable?
>>
>
> clue token: Corian is ±1/3 acrylic resin (also known as PolyMethyl
> MethAcrylate) and ±2/3 natural minerals.
>
> The main ingredient is the mineral
> Aluminum TriHydrate (ATH) derived
> from bauxite, an ore from which
> aluminum is extracted.
>
> (save your clue tokens. get the whole set. trade them with friends.
> if you should ever gather up enough to actually buy a clue - call
> somebody and tell them. i'll bet they will be excited - and
> surprised.)
Now, what do you believe the relevance of this information to be?
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>However, now I understand--you must be new to USENET--
>
> Don't tell me you're one of those guys who's still pissed
> that the Internet got turned over to the common folk.
Yup, newcomer going all defensive when he finds out that he's not going to
get away with what worked in the small universe he used to inhabit.
> How long are you guys going to go on about this?
About what? Expecting people to defend their arguments with reason and
logic rather than simply asserting over and over again "you're wrong" and
when that doesn't work following up with name calling?
>>And so far the only defense you have given of your argument
>>is that "it's not the DuPont Way".
>
> Well, it is.
So what?
> UA100
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:40:57 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
....snip.....
>> You on the other hand are here
>> without credentials and as far as I know you're as brain
>> dead, or as full of shit, as guys like Woody when he's
>> giving out 'lektrikal advice (advise in wreckspeak).
>
>You are also here without "credentials" (and don't bother to try to post
>them unless you can (a) prove that they are valid and (b) prove that you
>are the person to whom they were issued) and give every appearance of being
>insuffiiciently literate to figure out that a discussion of alternatives to
>the seam kit for those who cannot get the seam kit is not advocacy of
>abandonment of the seam kit by those who have access to it.
>
>However, now I understand--you must be new to USENET--nobody gives a damn
>about your "credentials" if you can't defend your argument. And so far the
>only defense you have given of your argument is that "it's not the DuPont
>Way".
wow. J. Clarke sure knows how to put his foot in it, eh?
J. Clarke wrote:
>However, now I understand--you must be new to USENET--
Don't tell me you're one of those guys who's still pissed
that the Internet got turned over to the common folk. How
long are you guys going to go on about this?
>And so far the only defense you have given of your argument
>is that "it's not the DuPont Way".
Well, it is.
UA100
On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:20:58 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>> > It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
>> > application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
>> > to back - once the joint is closed up.
>>
>> Not quite. From http://www.parksite.com/productgroups/msds/msds_3_42.pdf
>>
>> "The adhesive used to bond sheets of Corian® during fabrication
>contains
>> methylmethacrylate, or MMA for short."
>>
>> MMA is also a two-part mix, but it's not epoxy.
>
>Bullshit ... You can argue semantics/split hairs all day long, but MMA fits
>the accepted definition of "expoxy" as commonly used in the building and
>cabinet trades.
>
>http://www.thefreedictionary.com/epoxy
nontechnical source, and just plain wrong.
>http://www.epoxysystems.com/mmahom.htm
nowhere on that page does it say that MMA is epoxy.
Epoxy is not a generic term for 2 part glues.
On Mon, 31 May 2004 08:23:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In other words being asked to question your assumptions makes you
>uncomfortable?
>
clue token: Corian is ±1/3 acrylic resin (also known as PolyMethyl
MethAcrylate) and ±2/3 natural minerals.
The main ingredient is the mineral
Aluminum TriHydrate (ATH) derived
from bauxite, an ore from which
aluminum is extracted.
(save your clue tokens. get the whole set. trade them with friends.
if you should ever gather up enough to actually buy a clue - call
somebody and tell them. i'll bet they will be excited - and
surprised.)
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
He got you GOOD on that last post of his, Keeter. Boy do
you look STOOPID now! Go J.C! (I was referring to the
warranty issue, in case you've finally lost those last few
thousand brain cells you've been hanging onto for god knows
what useful purpose).
dave
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>However, now I understand--you must be new to USENET--
>
>
> Don't tell me you're one of those guys who's still pissed
> that the Internet got turned over to the common folk. How
> long are you guys going to go on about this?
>
>
>>And so far the only defense you have given of your argument
>>is that "it's not the DuPont Way".
>
>
> Well, it is.
>
> UA100
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>I find myself wondering what's so important about the glue.
>>Solvent-cementing of acrylic is hardly any deep dark secret, and I
>>understand that working the stuff makes plenty of dust for filler--if it
>>doesn't, one can always take a belt sander to a scrap.
>
>
>
> It's not the seam kits that are some great dark secret but
> what people will do with them if they could get them and
> that's pretty much make and install Corian improperly thus
> causing DuPont more headaches than they really care to
> deal with. As it's set up they can control quality by
> making sure everyone who uses it has been properly
> trained.
>
> Also, by limiting the number of fabricators in an area
> DuPont is able to keep it's core of customers more healthy.
>
> Might sound un-American (limiting distribution) but it's
> their product and their's to do with what they think best
> and so far I've yet to see DuPont losing money on Corian
> or hear any of their fabricators pissing and moaning about
> the arrangement.
The point is that unless there's something I'm missing anybody with a can of
methylene chloride and a power sander don't NEED no steenkeeng SEAM KIT.
> UA100
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Mon, 31 May 2004 10:11:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
>> clue token: Corian is ±1/3 acrylic resin (also known as PolyMethyl
>> MethAcrylate) and ±2/3 natural minerals.
>Now, what do you believe the relevance of this information to be?
If you do not understand the relevance of the above information to
your question about why joining an acrylic based product like Corian
is different than joining acrylic aquaria, et al - then I was correct
in my assumption that I own small appliances that are smarter than you
are.
<watson-who is kinda looking forward to dickhead trying out his meth
chloride idea>
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 10:11:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>>> clue token: Corian is ±1/3 acrylic resin (also known as PolyMethyl
>>> MethAcrylate) and ±2/3 natural minerals.
>
>
>>Now, what do you believe the relevance of this information to be?
>
>
> If you do not understand the relevance of the above information to
> your question about why joining an acrylic based product like Corian
> is different than joining acrylic aquaria, et al - then I was correct
> in my assumption that I own small appliances that are smarter than you
> are.
>
>
> <watson-who is kinda looking forward to dickhead trying out his meth
> chloride idea>
I see. So you really don't have a clue what the relevance of your
observation might be and so you attempt to mask that ignorance with name
calling. Care to try again?
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:37:25 -0400, RB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Epoxy is used to refer to any two-part adhesive system only by those
>>whose knowledge is so lacking that all they comprehend is that two parts
>>of something are to be mixed together.
>>
>>Fortunately the English language is very robust and it affords us the
>>opportunity when it is important to speak in a manner such that
>>ambiguities and misunderstandings are kept to a minimum. One of the
>>ways this is done is to know the definitions of words. What you are
>>saying is that because someone who didn't know the meaning of the word
>>"epoxy" and used it to refer to a totally different adhesive "epoxy" has
>>now been redefined.
>>
>>It doesn't work that way. "Technical correctness" isn't the issue. If
>>the words you utter don't have a universally understood meaning (a
>>definition) then you might just as well communicate with monosyllabic
>>grunts.
>>
>>Proper use of the language is frequently an indicator of one's
>>education, knowledge and intelligence. Improper use of the language
>>is... well I let you complete the thought.
>>
>>RB
>
> Research Article
> Viscoelastic behaviour of epoxy resins modified with poly(methyl
> methacrylate)
> I. Mondragon 1 *, P. M. Remiro 1, M. D. Martin 1, A. Valea 1, M.
> Franco 1, V. Bellenguer 2
> 1Departamento Ingeniería Química y del Medio Ambiente, Escuela
> Universitaria Ingeniería Técnica Industrial, Universidad País
> Vasco/Euskal Herriko Unibertsitatea (UPV/EHU), Avda. Felipe IV, 1 B,
> 20011 San Sebastián/Donostia, Spain
> 2École Nationale Supérieure dArts et Métiers (ENSAM), 151, boulevard
> de lHôpital, 75640 Paris, France
>
>
> Abstract
> The viscoelastic behaviour of a stoichiometric diglycidyl ether of
> bisphenol-A, (DGEBA), 4,4-diaminodiphenylmethanes (DDM)s epoxy matrix
> modified with several amounts of poly(methyl methacrylate) (PMMA) has
> been studied by dynamic-mechanical analysis. Mixtures pre-cured at
> 80°C ranged from transparency to opacity as thermoplastic content
> changed from 5 to 15wt%. These changes have been attributed to
> variations in the ratio between polymerization rate and phase
> separation rate when PMMA content increased in the mixtures. When PMMA
> segregated from the epoxy matrix during curing, it had no influence on
> the crosslinking density of the epoxy phase. The clear decrease of
> temperature and activation energy of the relaxation with respect to
> those values for the neat matrix, observed for the 5wt%
> PMMA-containing mixture but not for the 15wt% PMMA-containing one, are
> proposed to be a consequence of physical interactions between the PMMA
> chains and some epoxy oligomers. The dissimilar variation of the
> height of the relaxation with frequency when compared to that for the
> other relaxations studied, outlines the significance of physical
> factors influencing this relaxation. © 1998 Society of Chemical
> Industry
>
> Received: 17 December 1997; Revised: 6 March 1998; Accepted: 31 March
> 1998
> *Correspondence to I. Mondragon, Departamento Ingeniería Química y del
> Medio Ambiente, Escuela Universitaria Ingeniería Técnica Industrial,
> Universidad País Vasco/Euskal Herriko Unibertsitatea (UPV/EHU), Avda.
> Felipe IV, 1 B, 20011 San Sebastián/Donostia, Spain
>
>
> Funding Agency: UPV; Grant Number: 112.263-EA135/92
> Funding Agency: CICYT; Grant Number: AP92-15998035
Good try. Shame you don't understand what you're reading. For example
"when PMMA segregated from the epoxy matrix during curing, it had no
influence on the crosslinking of the epoxy phase". Right there in your own
quote it is clearly stated that PMMA is different from epoxy.
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Mon, 31 May 2004 18:55:24 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
>> >Bullshit ... You can argue semantics/split hairs all day long, but MMA
>fits
>> >the accepted definition of "expoxy" as commonly used in the building and
>> >cabinet trades.
>> >
>> >http://www.thefreedictionary.com/epoxy
>>
>> nontechnical source, and just plain wrong.
>
>As I said, you can argue semantics and and split hairs, but common usage, as
>TW use clearly indicated, was the point.
>
>> >http://www.epoxysystems.com/mmahom.htm
>> nowhere on that page does it say that MMA is epoxy.
>
>...and conversely, no where does it say it is not, so if your argument is
>with common usage of the term, you're basically pissing in the wind.
sure, and it's common usage to call my pickup truck a maserati too.
ya know, I've been in the trades for decades and I've never once heard
someone call acryllic glue epoxy.
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:37:25 -0400, RB <[email protected]> wrote:
>Epoxy is used to refer to any two-part adhesive system only by those
>whose knowledge is so lacking that all they comprehend is that two parts
>of something are to be mixed together.
>
>Fortunately the English language is very robust and it affords us the
>opportunity when it is important to speak in a manner such that
>ambiguities and misunderstandings are kept to a minimum. One of the
>ways this is done is to know the definitions of words. What you are
>saying is that because someone who didn't know the meaning of the word
>"epoxy" and used it to refer to a totally different adhesive "epoxy" has
>now been redefined.
>
>It doesn't work that way. "Technical correctness" isn't the issue. If
>the words you utter don't have a universally understood meaning (a
>definition) then you might just as well communicate with monosyllabic
>grunts.
>
>Proper use of the language is frequently an indicator of one's
>education, knowledge and intelligence. Improper use of the language
>is... well I let you complete the thought.
>
>RB
Research Article
Viscoelastic behaviour of epoxy resins modified with poly(methyl
methacrylate)
I. Mondragon 1 *, P. M. Remiro 1, M. D. Martin 1, A. Valea 1, M.
Franco 1, V. Bellenguer 2
1Departamento Ingeniería Química y del Medio Ambiente, Escuela
Universitaria Ingeniería Técnica Industrial, Universidad País
Vasco/Euskal Herriko Unibertsitatea (UPV/EHU), Avda. Felipe IV, 1 B,
20011 San Sebastián/Donostia, Spain
2École Nationale Supérieure dArts et Métiers (ENSAM), 151, boulevard
de lHôpital, 75640 Paris, France
Abstract
The viscoelastic behaviour of a stoichiometric diglycidyl ether of
bisphenol-A, (DGEBA), 4,4-diaminodiphenylmethanes (DDM)s epoxy matrix
modified with several amounts of poly(methyl methacrylate) (PMMA) has
been studied by dynamic-mechanical analysis. Mixtures pre-cured at
80°C ranged from transparency to opacity as thermoplastic content
changed from 5 to 15wt%. These changes have been attributed to
variations in the ratio between polymerization rate and phase
separation rate when PMMA content increased in the mixtures. When PMMA
segregated from the epoxy matrix during curing, it had no influence on
the crosslinking density of the epoxy phase. The clear decrease of
temperature and activation energy of the relaxation with respect to
those values for the neat matrix, observed for the 5wt%
PMMA-containing mixture but not for the 15wt% PMMA-containing one, are
proposed to be a consequence of physical interactions between the PMMA
chains and some epoxy oligomers. The dissimilar variation of the
height of the relaxation with frequency when compared to that for the
other relaxations studied, outlines the significance of physical
factors influencing this relaxation. © 1998 Society of Chemical
Industry
Received: 17 December 1997; Revised: 6 March 1998; Accepted: 31 March
1998
*Correspondence to I. Mondragon, Departamento Ingeniería Química y del
Medio Ambiente, Escuela Universitaria Ingeniería Técnica Industrial,
Universidad País Vasco/Euskal Herriko Unibertsitatea (UPV/EHU), Avda.
Felipe IV, 1 B, 20011 San Sebastián/Donostia, Spain
Funding Agency: UPV; Grant Number: 112.263-EA135/92
Funding Agency: CICYT; Grant Number: AP92-15998035
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> sure, and it's common usage to call my pickup truck a maserati too.
Yeah, but you will call a groove a dado.
> ya know, I've been in the trades for decades and I've never once heard
> someone call acryllic glue epoxy.
Just don't tell the Mexican Corian installer that's not "epoxy" he's mixing
... he'll laugh your ass off the job site.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
"Tom Watson" wrote in message
"J. Clarke" wrote:
> >Now, what do you believe the relevance of this information to be?
> <watson-who is kinda looking forward to dickhead trying out his meth
> chloride idea>
Could almost be WWPecker in troll drag, who has improved his vocabulary only
to exceed his intelligence.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:54:49 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>J. Clarke wrote:
>>>The point is that unless there's something I'm missing anybody with a can
>>>of methylene chloride and a power sander don't NEED no steenkeeng SEAM
>>>KIT.
>
>
>>Okee dokee, if you say so.
>
>
>>UA100
>
>
> This is exactly why Dupont licenses installers and fabricators. So
> that people don't screw things up and ruin the brand name in the
> process.
>
> <watson-licensed since shortly after earl flynn died.>
I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent cementing
using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be unsatisfactory in any
manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
I see you are still into pissing contests. Bravo Tom! as
Eisan would say (although he stole it from me); yawn...
dave
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:49:00 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>>If you do not understand the relevance of the above information to
>>>your question about why joining an acrylic based product like Corian
>>>is different than joining acrylic aquaria, et al - then I was correct
>>>in my assumption that I own small appliances that are smarter than you
>>>are.
>>
>>
>>Describe how small.
>>
>>UA100
>
>
> I'm not sure about the 'lectric pencil sharpener but he wouldn't win a
> battle of wits with anything from the microwave on up.
>
> <watson-who thinks it's funny that mr. clarke posted for the first
> time on the Wreck, on April Fools Day of 2004.>
>
>
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Tommy, Tommy, Tommy! I do, I do!
dave
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 21:06:17 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>more quotes from Tommy!
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>snip snip
>
>
> You don't get it, do you, davey?
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:49:00 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:
>>>If you do not understand the relevance of the above information to
>>>your question about why joining an acrylic based product like Corian
>>>is different than joining acrylic aquaria, et al - then I was correct
>>>in my assumption that I own small appliances that are smarter than you
>>>are.
>>
>>
>>Describe how small.
>>
>>UA100
>
> I'm not sure about the 'lectric pencil sharpener but he wouldn't win a
> battle of wits with anything from the microwave on up.
>
> <watson-who thinks it's funny that mr. clarke posted for the first
> time on the Wreck, on April Fools Day of 2004.>
Now you go back through posting histories instead of coming up with some
kind of semi-plausible logic to support your argument.
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:49:00 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Tom Watson wrote:
>>If you do not understand the relevance of the above information to
>>your question about why joining an acrylic based product like Corian
>>is different than joining acrylic aquaria, et al - then I was correct
>>in my assumption that I own small appliances that are smarter than you
>>are.
>
>
>Describe how small.
>
>UA100
I'm not sure about the 'lectric pencil sharpener but he wouldn't win a
battle of wits with anything from the microwave on up.
<watson-who thinks it's funny that mr. clarke posted for the first
time on the Wreck, on April Fools Day of 2004.>
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 21:06:17 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]>
wrote:
>more quotes from Tommy!
>
>dave
>
>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>snip snip
You don't get it, do you, davey?
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:39:15 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>And while way wordier than what I'd written what Tom is
>>really trying to say is, "Only by DuPont's standards".
>>
>>UA100
>
>
> I wouldn't want to leave the man with the impression that Dupont's
> seam kit is nothing more than meth chloride and some Corian dust.
>
> It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
> application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
> to back - once the joint is closed up.
>
> The meth chloride and dust would partially dissolve the Corian but the
> result would have no strength and a crack line would eventually form.
I see. So the standard solvent-cementing procedure that holds up in
aquaria, aircraft, spacecraft, and numerous other places where acrylic
under stresses far greater than any likely to be encountered in a blasted
countertop is used will "have no strength" in Corian? Now why is that?
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:16:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent cementing
>>using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be unsatisfactory in any
>>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
>
>
> The problem that I'm having with this is that you are fixating on the
> chemistry, to the exclusion of other considerations.
That's because the chemistry is supposedly available only from DuPont. The
rest one can figure out one way or another.
> What about the selection of the sheets for color matching?
>
> What about the proper type and preparation of the substrate?
> What about the choice of choice of acceptable methods to cut the
> sheets?
>
> What about the proper tolerances for straightness and the gap between
> joined sheets?
>
> What about the proper clamping pressure at the seam?
>
> What about how much to overfill the seam and what techniques are best
> to deal with that?
>
> What about the proper radius that's allowed in the cutouts?
>
> In areas where cutouts are for stovetops, there is a specific 3M tape
> that is used as a backer at the seam - what kind is it?
>
> What about the mixing time of the seam kit? Should you knead by hand,
> or put the tube in the clamp on you half-sheet sander, and run the
> sander for how long?
Who's got a seam kit? And you mean that it's not labelled?
> Speaking of sanders, what is the best type to use and what grits
> should you start with?
>
> What type of abrasive is best?
>
> If you want to bring it up to a gloss, what grits and compounds are
> used to do this?
>
>
> The above is certainly not an exhaustive listing - merely a friendly
> warning.
Substitute "Jarrah" or "Ipe" for "Corian" in the above and do any of the
questions change? Do you know the answers to all of them? Does that mean
that we should not try to make things out of Jarrah or Ipe?
I'm sorry, but the fact that one is going to have to do some experimentation
to back into the information that duPont _could_ make available at no cost
to themselves, does not make solid surface impossible for anybody but those
who have been trained by DuPont to work with, it just means that one has to
devote the same effort to learning its properties that one does to learning
the properties of any unfamiliar material.
And what is the cost of a screwed up countertop bond? It's just something
to fix. It's not like the world ends or anything.
Now, if you really cared about helping people instead of protecting us from
ourselves then you might provide the benefit of your vast training and
experience.
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent cementing
>>using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be unsatisfactory in any
>>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
>
>
> Only by DuPont's standards.
Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you know
is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of thinking
that is the only possible way to do it.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
I work with epoxy and glass & graphite fibers. Epoxy is
almost $1000/qt, fibers about $100/lb. Rings
weigh around 350-400lbs. Yes, there is only ONE way to do
some things.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Unisaw A100 wrote:
>
>
>>J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent cementing
>>>using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be unsatisfactory in any
>>>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
>>
>>
>>Only by DuPont's standards.
>
>
> Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
> theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you know
> is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of thinking
> that is the only possible way to do it.
>
>
Unisaw A100 wrote:
>>Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
>>theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you
>>know is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of
>>thinking that is the only possible way to do it.
>
>
> Wow! How do you breath with your pants so bunched up J.?
Coming from someone who is arguing engineering on the basis of religious
faith (There is only One Good, Right, and True DuPont Way and all other
paths lead to damnation) that's a laugh.
> UA100
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
RB wrote:
>
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:16:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent
>>>>cementing using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be
>>>>unsatisfactory in any
>>>>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
>>>
>>>
>>>The problem that I'm having with this is that you are fixating on the
>>>chemistry, to the exclusion of other considerations.
>>
>>
>> That's because the chemistry is supposedly available only from DuPont.
>> The rest one can figure out one way or another.
>
> Given a drop of their magic elixir it would be an easy job to determine
> what their seam kit holds. FTIR Mass Spectroscopy and a few other
> analytical tools will tell all.
Yup. And any way you cut it there's unlikely to be anything at all special
about it. But figuring it out requires tools that the average woodworker
doesn't have. Be nice if someone with access to the right facilities _did_
get hold of a sample and post the analysis somewhere.
> RB
>
>>
>>
>>>What about the selection of the sheets for color matching?
>>>
>>>What about the proper type and preparation of the substrate?
>>
>>
>>>What about the choice of choice of acceptable methods to cut the
>>>sheets?
>>>
>>>What about the proper tolerances for straightness and the gap between
>>>joined sheets?
>>>
>>>What about the proper clamping pressure at the seam?
>>>
>>>What about how much to overfill the seam and what techniques are best
>>>to deal with that?
>>>
>>>What about the proper radius that's allowed in the cutouts?
>>>
>>>In areas where cutouts are for stovetops, there is a specific 3M tape
>>>that is used as a backer at the seam - what kind is it?
>>>
>>>What about the mixing time of the seam kit? Should you knead by hand,
>>>or put the tube in the clamp on you half-sheet sander, and run the
>>>sander for how long?
>>
>>
>> Who's got a seam kit? And you mean that it's not labelled?
>>
>>
>>>Speaking of sanders, what is the best type to use and what grits
>>>should you start with?
>>>
>>>What type of abrasive is best?
>>>
>>>If you want to bring it up to a gloss, what grits and compounds are
>>>used to do this?
>>>
>>>
>>>The above is certainly not an exhaustive listing - merely a friendly
>>>warning.
>>
>>
>> Substitute "Jarrah" or "Ipe" for "Corian" in the above and do any of the
>> questions change? Do you know the answers to all of them? Does that
>> mean that we should not try to make things out of Jarrah or Ipe?
>>
>> I'm sorry, but the fact that one is going to have to do some
>> experimentation to back into the information that duPont _could_ make
>> available at no cost to themselves, does not make solid surface
>> impossible for anybody but those who have been trained by DuPont to work
>> with, it just means that one has to devote the same effort to learning
>> its properties that one does to learning the properties of any unfamiliar
>> material.
>>
>> And what is the cost of a screwed up countertop bond? It's just
>> something
>> to fix. It's not like the world ends or anything.
>>
>> Now, if you really cared about helping people instead of protecting us
>> from ourselves then you might provide the benefit of your vast training
>> and experience.
>>
>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Tom.
>>>
>>>Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
>>>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
>>
>>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
jev wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:19:43 GMT, Mark & Juanita
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>>
>>Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
>><http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
>>thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
>>
> <SNIP>
>
> IT isn't slabs of solid quartz. From their website:
>
> "Is CAMBRIA made or manufactured in a plant?
>
> The CAMBRIA facility produces natural quartz into slabs. We take pure
> natural quartz mined out of the earth and combine it with a small
> amount of pigment and resin to create a slab of uncommon beauty and
> strength. This is done in our facility in LeSueur, Minnesota, the only
> one of its kind in the United States. By recombining the quartz in our
> facility, we are able to recreate the slabs to make them completely
> non-porous."
Gawd, what does _that_ mean? Anybody know the patent number on the process
or device?
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Rick Samuel wrote:
> I work with epoxy and glass & graphite fibers. Epoxy is
> almost $1000/qt, fibers about $100/lb. Rings
> weigh around 350-400lbs. Yes, there is only ONE way to do
> some things.
Oh? You developed the process yourself? If not, then how do you know that
it is the only one possible?
There is, in engineering, seldom only one way to do a job. However when it
is time to cut chips, you have to pick one of the alternatives and put it
on the specs and on the drawings and in the work sheets and wherever else
it needs to be.
So, there are probably several ways to do whatever you do with your
mysterious "rings". Find the engineer who came up with the process and if
he's the friendly and talkative sort ask him what alternatives were
considered and why the one you use was chosen and you may get a surprise.
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Unisaw A100 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent
>>>>cementing using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be
>>>>unsatisfactory in any
>>>>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
>>>
>>>
>>>Only by DuPont's standards.
>>
>>
>> Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
>> theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you
>> know is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of
>> thinking that is the only possible way to do it.
>>
>>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
p_j wrote:
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> One thing that Cambria states is that they manufacture their product in
>> Minnesota (if that makes a difference to you). [Still not comfortable
>> with their claims that Cambria is "Natural Stone" though]
>
> Use frickin granite. Sealing it is trivial.
Mind you don't drop it on your OH!
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
RB wrote:
>
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Unisaw A100 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Meaningless statement. Says you have no experience, no test results, no
>>>>theory, nothing to suggest that there might be a problem, all that you
>>>>know is that DuPont told you one way to do a job and so to your way of
>>>>thinking that is the only possible way to do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wow! How do you breath with your pants so bunched up J.?
>>
>>
>> Coming from someone who is arguing engineering on the basis of religious
>> faith (There is only One Good, Right, and True DuPont Way and all other
>> paths lead to damnation) that's a laugh.
>>
> And if you buy that you probably believe that there is no coincidence
> between the patents on R-12 running out and the "discovery" that it
> contributed to "global warming." We just finished Memorial Day weekend
> and lit fires all three nights because it was CCCCold. Global warming???
Get your plots straight--CFCs contribute to ozone depletion, not global
warming.
Is all capitalist plot Natasha. Keel moose and squir-rel.
> RB
>
>>
>>>UA100
>>
>>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Swingman wrote:
> "RB" wrote in message
>> I see nothing in the two links you provided that support your very
>> incorrect assertion that MMA is an epoxy. There is little similarity
>> between MMA and epoxy.
>
> I agree ... you do "see nothing".
>
> It could be that you either didn't read, or that you jumped so quickly to
> correct, like some of the other "technically correct" around here, that
> you failed to understand/grasp what was said: That "epoxy" is a term
> commonly used for the two part adhesives/fillers used by those installing
> solid surface countertops, whether these mixtures be technically "epoxy"
> or not ... you even witness a licensed Corian installer make the EXACT
> same reference in a previous post ... which proves my original point,
> whether you agree or not.
>
> Now, I used to think that "Political Correctness" was a pox on the
> cultural landscape, but damn if it doesn't pale in comparison with the
> petty "Technical Correctness" gleefully wielded hereabouts at every
> opportunity as one-upmanship.
If you think that "Technical correctness" is mere one-upsmanship, one these
days reality is going to bite you in the ass bigtime. With any luck you'll
survive the experience with your limbs intact.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:15:27 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:
> This is exactly why Dupont licenses installers and fabricators. So that
> people don't screw things up and ruin the brand name in the process.
>
> <watson-licensed since shortly after earl flynn died.>
Was he related to Errol Flynn?
--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
Tom Watson wrote:
> It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
> application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
> to back - once the joint is closed up.
Not quite. From http://www.parksite.com/productgroups/msds/msds_3_42.pdf
"The adhesive used to bond sheets of Corian® during fabrication contains
methylmethacrylate, or MMA for short."
MMA is also a two-part mix, but it's not epoxy.
On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:05:41 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>> Speaking of which, at a tangent, we had been considering granite for our
>>kitchen. Now, however, it appears that quartz is also a viable material
>>and less porous than even granite. However, when doing a search for quartz
>>countertops, or even "natural" quartz countertops, I get all sorts of hits
>>in which claims are made for things like "silestone" and a couple of other
>>products are "natural quartz" One has to read the fine print really,
>>really closely to identify that these are composite materials using
>>"natural quartz" in some sort of binder. Yet the big print yells "NATURAL
>>QUARTZ"! Gettin' kind of frustrating trying to find some web pages with
>>examples of real quartz countertops -- and by real I mean, honest, no
>>kidding, cut from the quarry solid quartz -- not something ground up and
>>reformulated with new colors in an attractive plastic binder.
>
>I don't think that quartz grows big enough for counter tops. In a
>past life, I ran a quartz crystal plant for quartz crystals used in
>communications equipment. The raw quartz crystals were in the 1-1
>1/2" diameter and 6" length range.
>
Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
<http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
Most other manufacturers of quartz countertops are like those found on:
<http://www.avanzausa.com/content_features_frame.html>. One of my
favorite quotes from that page: "The color of ordinary stone can vary
greatly between pieces. And unattractive veining or color blots can mar the
appearance. With Avanza, colors and textures are consistent." Can you
imagine subsituting: "The color of ordinary maple can vary greatly between
pieces. And unattractive quilting or birds-eye can mar the appearance.
With aggreparticleboardmaple, colos and textures are consistent"?
On 30 May 2004 23:26:20 -0700, [email protected] (Gary DeWitt) wrote:
>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:50:49 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
... snip
>> >If you read the cited articles; you will notice that they talk of
>> >"engineered stone" - this is not a natural product; it is fabricated
>> >by some type of glue and stone and quartz particles.
>> >
>> >
>> >Alan Bierbaum
>>
>> Yep, you're right. After more careful inspection, it appears that this
>> is also engineered material. Funny thing, you really have to dig to find
>> that, looking at the first parts of their web pages, you get quotes such
>> as, "CAMBRIA is pure natural Quartz stone mined out of the earth. It has
>> the look and feel of granite with superior performance." That's from the
>> Product Info page, From the how we compare page, in the table it lists
>> both Cambria and Granite as "Natural Stone". Yeah, "natural" as in ground
>> up with epoxy binders -- just like MDF is "natural wood". Kind of
>> misleading.
>>
>> Thanks for helping set me straight -- looks like granite is still the top
>> of choice if one desires natural stone that is less porous than marble.
>
>I've been researching counter top materials for some time. Info I have
>is that ALL the quartz products are made by the same process, on the
>same patented Italian made machines. Dupont has one in Canada, they
>charge more for their product. Silestone and Cesar Stone, perhaps
>others by now, are the same thing. One product brochure, Silestone I
>believe, stated there is 90% Quartz and 10% binder material in the
>product, making it harder and less porous than granite. Needs no
>sealer, will not stain. Can't be scratched with a knife. MAY burn
>under high enough temp., not sure what that is. This will be my choice
>when I get around to our kitchen, expecting it to outlast me!
One thing that Cambria states is that they manufacture their product in
Minnesota (if that makes a difference to you). [Still not comfortable with
their claims that Cambria is "Natural Stone" though]
On Sun, 30 May 2004 14:26:34 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:36:40 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Eric Ryder wrote:
>>>Another product "Amerite?" is available from the maker
>>
>>
>>Avonite.
>>
>>UA100
>
>
>Yep, and the Avonite is a polyester based product and needs different
>treatment than Corian, which is acrylic based.
>
><watson-who had to go to Avonite school, too - but doesn't remember if
>they only let licensed fabricators buy it - because soon after Watson
>learned all about Corian and Avonite - everybody started to spec
>granite - sigh...>
>
>
Speaking of which, at a tangent, we had been considering granite for our
kitchen. Now, however, it appears that quartz is also a viable material
and less porous than even granite. However, when doing a search for quartz
countertops, or even "natural" quartz countertops, I get all sorts of hits
in which claims are made for things like "silestone" and a couple of other
products are "natural quartz" One has to read the fine print really,
really closely to identify that these are composite materials using
"natural quartz" in some sort of binder. Yet the big print yells "NATURAL
QUARTZ"! Gettin' kind of frustrating trying to find some web pages with
examples of real quartz countertops -- and by real I mean, honest, no
kidding, cut from the quarry solid quartz -- not something ground up and
reformulated with new colors in an attractive plastic binder.
On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:19:43 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:05:41 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>>
>>> Speaking of which, at a tangent, we had been considering granite for our
>>>kitchen. Now, however, it appears that quartz is also a viable material
>>>and less porous than even granite. However, when doing a search for quartz
>>>countertops, or even "natural" quartz countertops, I get all sorts of hits
>>>in which claims are made for things like "silestone" and a couple of other
>>>products are "natural quartz" One has to read the fine print really,
>>>really closely to identify that these are composite materials using
>>>"natural quartz" in some sort of binder. Yet the big print yells "NATURAL
>>>QUARTZ"! Gettin' kind of frustrating trying to find some web pages with
>>>examples of real quartz countertops -- and by real I mean, honest, no
>>>kidding, cut from the quarry solid quartz -- not something ground up and
>>>reformulated with new colors in an attractive plastic binder.
>>
>>I don't think that quartz grows big enough for counter tops. In a
>>past life, I ran a quartz crystal plant for quartz crystals used in
>>communications equipment. The raw quartz crystals were in the 1-1
>>1/2" diameter and 6" length range.
>>
>
>Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
><http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
>thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
>
> Most other manufacturers of quartz countertops are like those found on:
><http://www.avanzausa.com/content_features_frame.html>. One of my
>favorite quotes from that page: "The color of ordinary stone can vary
>greatly between pieces. And unattractive veining or color blots can mar the
>appearance. With Avanza, colors and textures are consistent." Can you
>imagine subsituting: "The color of ordinary maple can vary greatly between
>pieces. And unattractive quilting or birds-eye can mar the appearance.
>With aggreparticleboardmaple, colos and textures are consistent"?
If you read the cited articles; you will notice that they talk of
"engineered stone" - this is not a natural product; it is fabricated
by some type of glue and stone and quartz particles.
Alan Bierbaum
web site: http://www.calanb.com
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I want to have a go at using a solid surface counter top on cabinets
> I'm building. Can anybody tell me if I can buy this stuff by the
> sheet?
> Mike
You probably won't have any luck getting the Corian/Dupont brand. I haven't
had any trouble buying the Formica brand SS, but I'm just getting their
sheet stock. Another product "Amerite?" is available from the maker - I've
no experience with it.
"RB" wrote in message
> I see nothing in the two links you provided that support your very
> incorrect assertion that MMA is an epoxy. There is little similarity
> between MMA and epoxy.
I agree ... you do "see nothing".
It could be that you either didn't read, or that you jumped so quickly to
correct, like some of the other "technically correct" around here, that you
failed to understand/grasp what was said: That "epoxy" is a term commonly
used for the two part adhesives/fillers used by those installing solid
surface countertops, whether these mixtures be technically "epoxy" or not
... you even witness a licensed Corian installer make the EXACT same
reference in a previous post ... which proves my original point, whether you
agree or not.
Now, I used to think that "Political Correctness" was a pox on the cultural
landscape, but damn if it doesn't pale in comparison with the petty
"Technical Correctness" gleefully wielded hereabouts at every opportunity as
one-upmanship.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:16:12 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I note that neither of you has given any indication that solvent cementing
>using methylene chloride and Corian dust will be unsatisfactory in any
>manner whatsoever. Do you have any reason to believe that it will?
The problem that I'm having with this is that you are fixating on the
chemistry, to the exclusion of other considerations.
What about the selection of the sheets for color matching?
What about the proper type and preparation of the substrate?
What about the choice of choice of acceptable methods to cut the
sheets?
What about the proper tolerances for straightness and the gap between
joined sheets?
What about the proper clamping pressure at the seam?
What about how much to overfill the seam and what techniques are best
to deal with that?
What about the proper radius that's allowed in the cutouts?
In areas where cutouts are for stovetops, there is a specific 3M tape
that is used as a backer at the seam - what kind is it?
What about the mixing time of the seam kit? Should you knead by hand,
or put the tube in the clamp on you half-sheet sander, and run the
sander for how long?
Speaking of sanders, what is the best type to use and what grits
should you start with?
What type of abrasive is best?
If you want to bring it up to a gloss, what grits and compounds are
used to do this?
The above is certainly not an exhaustive listing - merely a friendly
warning.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Can you spell "S o c k p u p p e t "? Who's not getting his share of
attention?
--
Greg
"Caution - quoting history's great people may stir feelings of inadequacy in
others."
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ><watson-who thinks it's funny that mr. clarke posted for the first
> >time on the Wreck, on April Fools Day of 2004.>
>
>
> Yo Tom, Is he the guy that slammed me a couple/few threads
> ago when I called the guy a liar?
>
> UA100, who's thinking it's a cornspiracy...
On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:39:15 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>And while way wordier than what I'd written what Tom is
>really trying to say is, "Only by DuPont's standards".
>
>UA100
I wouldn't want to leave the man with the impression that Dupont's
seam kit is nothing more than meth chloride and some Corian dust.
It's really a two part epoxy mixture that has to be mixed before
application and has to fill the entire seam - top to bottom and front
to back - once the joint is closed up.
The meth chloride and dust would partially dissolve the Corian but the
result would have no strength and a crack line would eventually form.
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
On Mon, 31 May 2004 13:41:11 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Yo Tom, Is he the guy that slammed me a couple/few threads
>ago when I called the guy a liar?
>
>UA100, who's thinking it's a cornspiracy...
Dunno, it's hard to keep track of 'em.
<watson-who meant both threads and liars and finds both to be
thoroughly cornfused.>
<btw-we've gotten back to 'corn' - is this anythng like the 'six
degrees of kevin bacon'? ya know, like mebbe the six degrees of
hwmnbn?>
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
On Mon, 31 May 2004 19:33:03 GMT, hwmnbn <[email protected]>outgassed:
Who cut the cheese?
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Tom Watson wrote:
>This is exactly why Dupont licenses installers and fabricators. So
>that people don't screw things up and ruin the brand name in the
>process.
That's kinda/sorta the point i was trying to make. Thanks
for confirming it didn't go over everyone's heads.
><watson-licensed since shortly after earl flynn died.>
UA100, not licensed and Earl Flynn is still dead...
J. Clarke wrote:
>I find myself wondering what's so important about the glue.
>Solvent-cementing of acrylic is hardly any deep dark secret, and I
>understand that working the stuff makes plenty of dust for filler--if it
>doesn't, one can always take a belt sander to a scrap.
It's not the seam kits that are some great dark secret but
what people will do with them if they could get them and
that's pretty much make and install Corian improperly thus
causing DuPont more headaches than they really care to
deal with. As it's set up they can control quality by
making sure everyone who uses it has been properly
trained.
Also, by limiting the number of fabricators in an area
DuPont is able to keep it's core of customers more healthy.
Might sound un-American (limiting distribution) but it's
their product and their's to do with what they think best
and so far I've yet to see DuPont losing money on Corian
or hear any of their fabricators pissing and moaning about
the arrangement.
UA100
On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:32:10 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
...endlessly...
You do it your way.
Let us know how you make out.
<watson goes about scraping the last of the dogshit off his shoe and
wanders into the house to talk with normal people, more or less.>
Regards,
Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>I find myself wondering what's so important about the glue.
>>Solvent-cementing of acrylic is hardly any deep dark secret, and I
>>understand that working the stuff makes plenty of dust for filler--if it
>>doesn't, one can always take a belt sander to a scrap.
>
>
>
> It's not the seam kits that are some great dark secret but
> what people will do with them if they could get them and
> that's pretty much make and install Corian improperly thus
> causing DuPont more headaches than they really care to
> deal with. As it's set up they can control quality by
> making sure everyone who uses it has been properly
> trained.
>
> UA100
Is there an echo in here?
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Now, now Tom. The weekend at the shore was supposed to relax and calm you.
Here you come back and let Mr. Apr. 1st get you all fired up again. Good
idea - - go inside, get a cold one, or 2, or 3, take some of JOAT's dried
frog pills and settle back down. Maybe even warp your legs into the "lotus"
position(if your knees will take it) and get into your mantra -
"ooommmmmmmmmmm". If the yoga & mantra won't work, then just say "the hell
with it" and sprawl out in the recliner!
We had a great time down in the Amish country. Ate too much, bought too
much, ate too much, spent too much time in the outlet malls, ate too much.
Did I mention we ate too much? This was her(our?) annual bash. Mother's Day,
her birthday, and our anniversary all fall in a 3-4 week period, so she gets
one major "outing" to cover all three. Fri. was our 44th anniversary.
Kay even found a special T-shirt for the wRECk in a "Big Dog" store, picture
forthcoming on abpw in a couple days. She even managed to score a quilt from
me, which shall remain un-priced in public, and we came back by way of
Williamsport, hoping "big green" would be open, as the quid pro quo for the
quilt is a new G0555, but they were closed. Oh well, another week or two and
I make a Saturday run!
--
Nahmie
The first myth of management is that management exists.
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:32:10 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ...endlessly...
>
>
>
> You do it your way.
>
> Let us know how you make out.
>
>
> <watson goes about scraping the last of the dogshit off his shoe and
> wanders into the house to talk with normal people, more or less.>
J. Clarke wrote:
>I find myself wondering what's so important about the glue.
>Solvent-cementing of acrylic is hardly any deep dark secret, and I
>understand that working the stuff makes plenty of dust for filler--if it
>doesn't, one can always take a belt sander to a scrap.
It's not the seam kits that are some great dark secret but
what people will do with them if they could get them and
that's pretty much make and install Corian improperly thus
causing DuPont more headaches than they really care to
deal with. As it's set up they can control quality by
making sure everyone who uses it has been properly
trained.
UA100
On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
snip
>
> Speaking of which, at a tangent, we had been considering granite for our
>kitchen. Now, however, it appears that quartz is also a viable material
>and less porous than even granite. However, when doing a search for quartz
>countertops, or even "natural" quartz countertops, I get all sorts of hits
>in which claims are made for things like "silestone" and a couple of other
>products are "natural quartz" One has to read the fine print really,
>really closely to identify that these are composite materials using
>"natural quartz" in some sort of binder. Yet the big print yells "NATURAL
>QUARTZ"! Gettin' kind of frustrating trying to find some web pages with
>examples of real quartz countertops -- and by real I mean, honest, no
>kidding, cut from the quarry solid quartz -- not something ground up and
>reformulated with new colors in an attractive plastic binder.
I don't think that quartz grows big enough for counter tops. In a
past life, I ran a quartz crystal plant for quartz crystals used in
communications equipment. The raw quartz crystals were in the 1-1
1/2" diameter and 6" length range.
Alan Bierbaum
web site: http://www.calanb.com
On Mon, 31 May 2004 01:21:46 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:50:49 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:19:43 GMT, Mark & Juanita
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:05:41 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:36:39 GMT, Mark & Juanita
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>snip
>>>>>
>... snip
>>>Not as single crystals. However, as quartz rock, it is available:
>>><http://www.cambriausa.com/consumer/> This was the only link I have found
>>>thus far that uses solid stone vs. ground up and reformulated stone.
>>>
>... more snip
>>
>>If you read the cited articles; you will notice that they talk of
>>"engineered stone" - this is not a natural product; it is fabricated
>>by some type of glue and stone and quartz particles.
>>
>>
>>Alan Bierbaum
>
> Yep, you're right. After more careful inspection, it appears that this
>is also engineered material. Funny thing, you really have to dig to find
>that, looking at the first parts of their web pages, you get quotes such
>as, "CAMBRIA is pure natural Quartz stone mined out of the earth. It has
>the look and feel of granite with superior performance." That's from the
>Product Info page, From the how we compare page, in the table it lists
>both Cambria and Granite as "Natural Stone". Yeah, "natural" as in ground
>up with epoxy binders -- just like MDF is "natural wood". Kind of
>misleading.
>
> Thanks for helping set me straight -- looks like granite is still the top
>of choice if one desires natural stone that is less porous than marble.
Hey - this "may" be a great product (even "better" than granite). I
really don't know anything about it other than what the website says.
Alan Bierbaum
web site: http://www.calanb.com
That's good to know. I did use Corian to top off a radiator cover a few
years back and it worked well. Didn't want tiles, cuz plants are on top
and it does see water, plus the Corian looks very close to granite.
Luckily, the sheet I bought was large enough to cover without having to
join pieces together.
Mark L.
John Flatley wrote:
> Several years ago, I had thoughts of several craft and scroll saw projects
> using Corian. I was unable to buy Corian, so those projects fell of the
> project list.
>
> We are having our kitchen re-modeled and last Thursday when the Corian man
> was here to make templates for our countertops, he said his company does
> sell the Corian now. However, he said they will not/can not sell the glue
> that allows seamless countertops to be fabricated. This seems like a change
> from what I had been told several years ago. II have not stopped by his
> company to buy any Corian to verify his story. Maybe later this year I
> resurrect those old projects.....
>
> Jack
>
>
> "Mark L." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>IIRC, most companies only sell to authorized installers and
>>distributors. Maybe that has changed, now that so many different types
>>are being sold. They don't want amateurs trying to work with the stuff.
>>But a few years back, I found a place that sold sheets. The max size
>>was 18x48. Maybe you could try looking in the back of home improvement
>>mags, that how I found my place. I'm not sure if they are still
>>around.... Mark L.
>>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>I want to have a go at using a solid surface counter top on cabinets
>>>I'm building. Can anybody tell me if I can buy this stuff by the
>>>sheet?
>>>Mike
>>
>
>