"Tony Sivori" wrote:
> I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim
> painter.
> Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.
You are about to go down a slippery slope many before you, including
me, have faced.
You have a kitchen whose cabinets have collected 50+ years of crap and
whose finish doesn't owe you anything.
Consider your options.
1) You can try to apply a finish without cleaning the old finish
first.
It will look like crap, but it will be cheap.
2) You can strip the old finish back to bare wood and refinish.
Only problem is it will be time consuming, and as others have pointed
out, dealing with chemical strippers will be a very nasty, and not
inexpensive process.
3) You can do a "refacing" job.
Remove all doors and use the wood to make shop jigs, replacing with
MDF core, laminated.doors.
Scrape the face frames down to bare wood and reface with laminate.
The hardware may or may not need replacement.
Fastest way to get the job done.
Lower cost than new cabinets, but you have to be happy with a laminate
kitchen.
4) You could replace cabinets with new.
It will be the most expensive, but maybe it is worth it.
I chose 3 more than 30 years ago and didn't regret it.
YMMV
Depends on how long you plan to remain.
Lew
On Oct 31, 12:50=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
> > birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
>
> True. =A0Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
> how it's cut.
> I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. =A0:-)
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
cheap.
Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
with my eyes.
One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.
On Oct 31, 1:04=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.
I only get purple hand from mahogany. I'd have that guy's body
chemistry checked - it's fooked up.
Okay, I'm back, and found this - it does seem to be a function of body
chemistry.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=3D438635
R
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:09:35 -0500, the infamous -MIKE-
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Robatoy wrote:
>>>> The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
>>>> birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
>>> True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
>>> how it's cut.
>>> I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)
>>>
>> I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
>> the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
>> cheap.
>> Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
>> with my eyes.
>> One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.
>
>Weird about the purple.
>I second everything you said about Poplar.
Tell the guy with purple hands to do a whole body cleanse. He's
probably picking up the tanning and the ammonia coming out of his
pores is turning him purple. He needs to _detox_!
>The runny nose thing... I was referring to the green streaks.
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)
On Oct 31, 8:34=A0pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > David Nebenzahl wrote:
> >> On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
>
> >>> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
> >>> Especially refinishing all the doors.
>
> >> Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in
> >> the first place?
>
> > Did you read the whole thread?
>
> > "I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
> > replacement."
>
> Job one is to replace the missing door.
>
> If that goes well, I do hope to address the finish on the rest of the
> doors. When I bought the house a couple of years ago, I had planned to
> replace the cabinets. But if I can make them good enough to suit
> myself, I could use the money saved elsewhere.
>
> --
> Tony Sivori
> Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Have you established what kind of finish is on there, Tony?
In article <[email protected]>, Tony Sivori
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
It doesn't look like oak to me.
On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
> Especially refinishing all the doors.
Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in the
first place?
Are they in bad shape? Surface dirty? (If so, then they need cleaning,
not refinishing.)
Is the surface scarred? Then you might have a case for refinishing.
However, judging by that picture, they're in very good shape.
Do you not like the color? Then you may have to refinish.
If the existing finish is just a little dingy in places--maybe a little
water damage here and there, missing finish in spots--then it might just
need some spot retouching, not refinishing.
What I'm getting at is that refinishing wood is, in most cases,
something to be avoided at all costs. Think about it: the first problem
is getting the old finish off. This means using nasty poisonous chemical
strippers; really no other way to do it. Then you've got to somehow
scrape off the majority of the gunk (dissolved old finish), making sure
you don't embed it in every nook, cranny and corner. Then you need to
somehow smooth the surface, probably by sanding, in such a way that you
remove the last remnants of the old finish *without* gouging or cupping
the surface or sanding though the face veneer.
It is possible to have things like this stripped at a commercial
facility that will basically dunk them in a huge tank of stripper, and
basically deliver you stripped, ready-to-finish doors. (Although I don't
know how well plywood panels will hold up in such a process without
warping or delaminating.) And that'll cost $$$, of course.
If you somehow get through all this without screwing up (very easy to
do), then you've got to stain the doors, taking care to get a consistent
color without streaks or dark or light patches. Then seal the surface.
Then apply several coats of clear finish.
So you might be biting off more than you want to chew here.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
On 10/31/2009 3:22 PM -MIKE- spake thus:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
>>
>>> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
>>> Especially refinishing all the doors.
>>
>> Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in the
>> first place?
>
> Did you read the whole thread?
>
> "I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
> replacement."
He also said "Especially refinishing *all* the doors". Just trying to
forewarn him is all.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
On 10/31/2009 7:43 PM Robatoy spake thus:
> On Oct 31, 10:50 pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>
>>> Question: If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
>>> finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? If yes, then it's
>>> shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
>>> you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.
>>
>> 91% rubbing alcohol did not remove the finish or the shine. The white
>> towel I used to apply it did turn yellowish.
>
> Then try lacquer thinner. Let me know what happens then.
Yes, much more likely than shellac. Believe me, nobody has used shellac
to finish kitchen cabinets in the last 50 years.
The finish is one of two things: varnish (oil-based) or lacquer. The
suggestion to try lacquer thinner (in an inconspicuous spot) is a good
one. If that doesn't soften the finish, then it's varnish.
If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use polyurethane
over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate coat.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
On 11/1/2009 10:20 AM Steve Turner spake thus:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use polyurethane
>> over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate coat.
>
> Why do you say that? There are plenty of lacquer based sealers out
> there, and nothing in a standard polyurethane finish (at least those
> thinned with mineral spirits) is going to attack a finish with a lacquer
> base. It's not as good as shellac as a sealer or base code for
> polyurethane (in my opinion), but as long as it's been suitably sanded
> then polyurethane sticks to it just fine.
I say this from experience: a while back I applied a topcoat of finish
to some friends' dining room table. I used oil-based (alkyd) varnish,
assuming (foolishly as it turned out) that the finish was varnish.
WRONG. It was lacquer, and the result was that the varnish simple beaded
up and formed ugly rivulets on the surface. I quickly sopped it all
up, got a can of brushing lacquer and used that instead.
You really cannot apply varnish over lacquer. Don't believe me? try it
sometime.
By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
On 11/1/2009 1:02 PM Robatoy spake thus:
> On Nov 1, 4:53 pm, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
>> significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
>> within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
>> sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.
>
> Hasn't happened in a production setting, that I know of, since 1976.
> Sanding sealers are lacquer based. I don't know anybody who has ever
> used shellac in a production set-up.
> Topcoats have been cat-lacquers for decades.
>
> BUT!
>
> I have run into all kinds of shellac in site-built kitchens.
As a topcoat? I'm surprised. But I'll take your word for it.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
On Oct 31, 10:50=A0pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
> > Robatoy wrote:
> >> On Oct 31, 8:34 pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Job one is to replace the missing door.
>
> >>> If that goes well, I do hope to address the finish on the rest of the
> >>> doors. When I bought the house a couple of years ago, I had planned t=
o
> >>> replace the cabinets. But if I can make them good enough to suit
> >>> myself, I could use the money saved elsewhere.
>
> >> Have you established what kind of finish is on there, Tony?
>
> No I haven't. I was thinking of trying a polyurethane. Is that likely to
> react badly with the 54 year old finish?
>
> > Question: =A0If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
> > finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? =A0If yes, then it's
> > shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
> > you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.
>
> 91% rubbing alcohol did not remove the finish or the shine. The white
> towel I used to apply it did turn yellowish.
>
> --
> Tony Sivori
> Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Then try lacquer thinner. Let me know what happens then.
On Nov 1, 2:30=A0am, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/31/2009 7:43 PM Robatoy spake thus:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 31, 10:50 pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Steve Turner wrote:
>
> >>> Question: =A0If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
> >>> finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? =A0If yes, then it's
> >>> shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
> >>> you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.
>
> >> 91% rubbing alcohol did not remove the finish or the shine. The white
> >> towel I used to apply it did turn yellowish.
>
> > Then try lacquer thinner. Let me know what happens then.
>
> Yes, much more likely than shellac. Believe me, nobody has used shellac
> to finish kitchen cabinets in the last 50 years.
>
> The finish is one of two things: varnish (oil-based) or lacquer. The
> suggestion to try lacquer thinner (in an inconspicuous spot) is a good
> one. If that doesn't soften the finish, then it's varnish.
>
> If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use polyurethane
> over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate coat.
>
Zzactly!
On Oct 31, 12:31=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tony Sivori wrote:
> > Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>
> >http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
> I don't think it's either.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Certainly not oak.
In article <[email protected]>,
Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>-MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>>
>>> Likely Birch, could be (soft?) maple, and possibly poplar/tulip.
>>
>>
>> Ding! on the Birch. (Where was my brain?) I think you're right about
>> that, but it doesn't look like Poplar to me. That door looks like Birch
>> ply.
>
>Thanks. I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
>replacement. The cabinets are mid 1950's vintage, very plain but decent
>quality.
I 'third' the ID as birch. I'll go further and say 'birch with a pecan
finish'.
On Nov 1, 1:36=A0am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Tony Sivori" wrote:
> > I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim
> > painter.
> > Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.
>
> You are about to go down a slippery slope many before you, including
> me, have faced.
>
> You have a kitchen whose cabinets have collected 50+ years of crap and
> whose finish doesn't owe you anything.
>
> Consider your options.
>
> 1) You can try to apply a finish without cleaning the old finish
> first.
>
> It will look like crap, but it will be cheap.
>
> 2) You can strip the old finish back to bare wood and refinish.
>
> Only problem is it will be time consuming, and as others have pointed
> out, dealing with chemical strippers will be a very nasty, and not
> inexpensive process.
>
> 3) You can do a "refacing" job.
>
> Remove all doors and use the wood to make shop jigs, replacing with
> MDF core, laminated.doors.
>
> Scrape the face frames down to bare wood and reface with laminate.
>
> The hardware may or may not need replacement.
>
> Fastest way to get the job done.
>
> Lower cost than new cabinets, but you have to be happy with a laminate
> kitchen.
>
> 4) You could replace cabinets with new.
>
> It will be the most expensive, but maybe it is worth it.
>
> I chose 3 more than 30 years ago and didn't regret it.
>
> YMMV
>
> Depends on how long you plan to remain.
>
> Lew
# 4 is the most disruptive as you also start messing with countertops
and plumbing. A much more ambitious, and as you pointed out, expensive
route to take.
# 3 is probably the most rewarding. Not too disruptive to daily life.
You have all the dimensions of all the doors, so ordering from a
variety of sources would be no problem. Cutting up a couple of 4x8
sheets of quality ply and taping the edges of the doors with veneer/
thermal tape is almost fun. Taping won't be needed if you use Baltic
Birch multi-ply as those edges are quite decorative as they are.
The cabinet frames... Lew suggested laminate.. that's a lot of work
and you got to know what you're doing. Not a simple job.
I would sand and paint the frames, after I plugged the hinge holes.
(unless you're sure you can get fresh hinges with the same hole-
spacing.) If the frames sand nicely and clean, maybe just a couple of
coats of Polyshades.
Now let's see...what are the potential tool-buying plusses??? A Fein
Multimaster? One of those super cool mini Porter Cable belt sanders?
You really should spray the doors...... but a deft hand...(get
it..DEFT) at brushing might work for you. Lightly sand between coats
with a sponge....Outdoors...the stuff is stinky.
One job I saw done, the face of the door was natural maple veneer. The
door edges painted in a medium brown polyshade and the frames of the
cabinets a shade darker than the door edges. A nice 3-dimensional look
to the job.
On Oct 31, 12:36=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 11:34 am, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>
> >>http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
> >> --
> >> Tony Sivori
> >> Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
>
> > Likely Birch, could be (soft?) maple, and possibly poplar/tulip.
>
> Ding! on the Birch. =A0(Where was my brain?)
> I think you're right about that, but it doesn't look like Poplar to me.
> That door looks like Birch ply.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
On Nov 1, 4:53=A0pm, David Nebenzahl <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
> significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
> within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
> sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.
Hasn't happened in a production setting, that I know of, since 1976.
Sanding sealers are lacquer based. I don't know anybody who has ever
used shellac in a production set-up.
Topcoats have been cat-lacquers for decades.
BUT!
I have run into all kinds of shellac in site-built kitchens.
On Oct 31, 11:55=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tony Sivori wrote:
> > This one is my house, in the ice storm Louisville had last winter. When
> > that branch hit the roof at 3 AM, it sounded like it might end up in be=
d
> > with me!
>
> >http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5297175940832823010
>
> > That ice storm resulted in the worst power outage in Kentucky history.
>
> My buddy's an engineer for AEP.
> He had to spend about a week down there helping your boys work out of
> that.
>
> --
>
> =A0 -MIKE-
>
> =A0 "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> =A0 =A0 =A0--Elvin Jones =A0(1927-2004)
> =A0 --
> =A0http://mikedrums.com
> =A0 [email protected]
> =A0 ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
A couple of people I know went down there from here. We're used to
that kinda stuff.
On Oct 31, 11:34=A0am, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
> --
> Tony Sivori
> Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Likely Birch, could be (soft?) maple, and possibly poplar/tulip.
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:57:05 -0400, Tony Sivori <[email protected]>
wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> Getting an exact match without refinishing everything is something that
>> is going to take some trial and error on a sample.
>
>I'm thinking that my best chance of it being less noticeable is if I also
>replace the missing door's mate. It is the cabinet above the stove, so
>except for the cabinet above the refrigerator, it is the least noticeable
>doors.
You might think about replacing those doors with contrasting doors;
something just different enough to look like it's supposed to be that
way.
>> The quick and dirty way to deal with the problem is to make the
>> replacement door out of poplar, which takes paint well, and then paint
>> everything.
>
>I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim painter.
>Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.
On Oct 31, 11:34=A0am, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
More importantly, what's up with this?
http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5167794062725600178
R
Tony Sivori wrote:
> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
I don't think it's either.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Robatoy wrote:
> On Oct 31, 11:34 am, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>>
>> --
>> Tony Sivori
>> Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
>
> Likely Birch, could be (soft?) maple, and possibly poplar/tulip.
Ding! on the Birch. (Where was my brain?)
I think you're right about that, but it doesn't look like Poplar to me.
That door looks like Birch ply.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Robatoy wrote:
> The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
> birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
how it's cut.
I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Robatoy wrote:
>>> The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
>>> birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
>> True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
>> how it's cut.
>> I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)
>>
> I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
> the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
> cheap.
> Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
> with my eyes.
> One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.
Weird about the purple.
I second everything you said about Poplar.
The runny nose thing... I was referring to the green streaks.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Tony Sivori wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> Likely Birch, could be (soft?) maple, and possibly poplar/tulip.
>>
>> Ding! on the Birch. (Where was my brain?) I think you're right about
>> that, but it doesn't look like Poplar to me. That door looks like Birch
>> ply.
>
> Thanks. I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
> replacement. The cabinets are mid 1950's vintage, very plain but decent
> quality.
>
Can you tell if that door is plywood.
I can't see enough detail on the edges to tell for sure.
If it's simply a piece of plywood with beveled (or curved) edge, you're
is good shape.
You can use the cut-offs of plywood to play around with the finish until
you get it just right.
Might also give you a good excuse to take all the doors off, give them a
chemical stripper bath, and refinish all of them.
Well... then you might as well do the face frames. :-)
oops, sorry.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>>>> The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
>>>> birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
>>> True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
>>> how it's cut.
>>> I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)
>>>
>> I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
>> the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
>> cheap.
>> Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
>> with my eyes.
>> One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.
>
> Weird about the purple.
> I second everything you said about Poplar.
I get that too. I think it's the tannin in the wood that causes it.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
RicodJour wrote:
> On Oct 31, 11:34 am, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
> More importantly, what's up with this?
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5167794062725600178
Yowsers. Hey, check this stuff out:
http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5342028647671709442
We used to make "salad" out of that stuff when we were kids. It's like
nature's sweet tarts. Hopefully it's not poisonous... :-)
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
>
>> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
>> Especially refinishing all the doors.
>
> Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in the
> first place?
>
Did you read the whole thread?
"I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
replacement."
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>
>http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
It is unquestionably *not* any type of oak. I don't think it's maple either,
though. My money is on yellow birch.
Tony Sivori wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
>>>
>>>> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
>>>> Especially refinishing all the doors.
>>>
>>> Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in
>>> the first place?
>>>
>>>
>> Did you read the whole thread?
>>
>> "I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
>> replacement."
>
> Job one is to replace the missing door.
>
> If that goes well, I do hope to address the finish on the rest of the
> doors. When I bought the house a couple of years ago, I had planned to
> replace the cabinets. But if I can make them good enough to suit
> myself, I could use the money saved elsewhere.
Getting an exact match without refinishing everything is something that is
going to take some trial and error on a sample. The quick and dirty way to
deal with the problem is to make the replacement door out of poplar, which
takes paint well, and then paint everything.
Robatoy wrote:
> On Oct 31, 8:34 pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Job one is to replace the missing door.
>>
>> If that goes well, I do hope to address the finish on the rest of the
>> doors. When I bought the house a couple of years ago, I had planned to
>> replace the cabinets. But if I can make them good enough to suit
>> myself, I could use the money saved elsewhere.
>
> Have you established what kind of finish is on there, Tony?
Question: If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? If yes, then it's
shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Tony Sivori wrote:
> This one is my house, in the ice storm Louisville had last winter. When
> that branch hit the roof at 3 AM, it sounded like it might end up in bed
> with me!
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5297175940832823010
>
> That ice storm resulted in the worst power outage in Kentucky history.
>
My buddy's an engineer for AEP.
He had to spend about a week down there helping your boys work out of
that.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tony Sivori" wrote:
>
>> I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim painter.
>> Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.
>
>
> You are about to go down a slippery slope many before you, including me,
> have faced.
>
> You have a kitchen whose cabinets have collected 50+ years of crap and
> whose finish doesn't owe you anything.
>
> Consider your options.
>
> 1) You can try to apply a finish without cleaning the old finish first.
>
> It will look like crap, but it will be cheap.
My dad took each of his cabinet doors down, glued on some ornamental trim
(so it looked sort of like it
had a "panel"--using door terminology) and used a 2-part antique finish
(brush on
one, and apply the other on with a wad of newspaper or something). The
first coat was a dark olive.
It looked pretty good during the 1970s. Probably out of style now, but it
didn't look like crap--it looked
more like he saved several thousand dollars. Maybe there is a variation
which would be acceptable today,
maybe not?
Bill
>
> 2) You can strip the old finish back to bare wood and refinish.
>
> Only problem is it will be time consuming, and as others have pointed out,
> dealing with chemical strippers will be a very nasty, and not inexpensive
> process.
>
> 3) You can do a "refacing" job.
>
> Remove all doors and use the wood to make shop jigs, replacing with MDF
> core, laminated.doors.
>
> Scrape the face frames down to bare wood and reface with laminate.
>
> The hardware may or may not need replacement.
>
> Fastest way to get the job done.
>
> Lower cost than new cabinets, but you have to be happy with a laminate
> kitchen.
>
> 4) You could replace cabinets with new.
>
> It will be the most expensive, but maybe it is worth it.
>
> I chose 3 more than 30 years ago and didn't regret it.
>
> YMMV
>
> Depends on how long you plan to remain.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 10/31/2009 7:43 PM Robatoy spake thus:
>
>> On Oct 31, 10:50 pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>
>>>> Question: If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
>>>> finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? If yes, then it's
>>>> shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
>>>> you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.
>>>
>>> 91% rubbing alcohol did not remove the finish or the shine. The white
>>> towel I used to apply it did turn yellowish.
>>
>> Then try lacquer thinner. Let me know what happens then.
>
> Yes, much more likely than shellac. Believe me, nobody has used shellac
> to finish kitchen cabinets in the last 50 years.
I don't believe you. :-) Mainly because I've seen plenty of examples
myself.
> The finish is one of two things: varnish (oil-based) or lacquer. The
> suggestion to try lacquer thinner (in an inconspicuous spot) is a good
> one. If that doesn't soften the finish, then it's varnish.
Not necessarily true. Lacquer thinner won't touch shellac either, hence
my suggestion to start with denatured alcohol. And there are really at
least three possibilities here, not just two (more if you count those
fancy catalyzed products, but I'll leave those out because I have no
experience with them). Alcohol dissolves shellac, but won't touch
either lacquer, alkyd (oil) varnishes, or polyurethane. Lacquer thinner
will attack plenty of other finishes, not just lacquer. If the finish
*dissolves* then it's likely (but not necessarily) lacquer; but if it
destroys it (not sure of the right word here; "congeals" comes to mind)
it's likely something else. Most polyurethanes are resistant to lacquer
thinner, but alkyd based varnishes (such as Behlen's "Rock Hard Table
Top Varnish) are not. Mineral spirits (or most standard "paint
thinners") aren't really useful for determining the nature of a cured
finish, because won't dissolve any of those aforementioned.
> If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use polyurethane
> over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate coat.
Why do you say that? There are plenty of lacquer based sealers out
there, and nothing in a standard polyurethane finish (at least those
thinned with mineral spirits) is going to attack a finish with a lacquer
base. It's not as good as shellac as a sealer or base code for
polyurethane (in my opinion), but as long as it's been suitably sanded
then polyurethane sticks to it just fine.
It's really the applying of lacquer over an alkyd base that you want to
avoid. The solvents in the lacquer will attack and curdle cured alkyd
resins.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0ad8aa58-3e54-4b8c-b1d8-858470ee2c21@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 12:50 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
> > birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
>
> True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
> how it's cut.
> I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> [email protected]
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
cheap.
Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
with my eyes.
One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.
After a day of handling green oak around the mill, the guys
hands will be almost black, most use lemon juice to bleach
their hands back to a normal color.
basilisk
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 11/1/2009 10:20 AM Steve Turner spake thus:
>
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use
>>> polyurethane over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate
>>> coat.
>>
>> Why do you say that? There are plenty of lacquer based sealers out
>> there, and nothing in a standard polyurethane finish (at least those
>> thinned with mineral spirits) is going to attack a finish with a
>> lacquer base. It's not as good as shellac as a sealer or base code
>> for polyurethane (in my opinion), but as long as it's been suitably
>> sanded then polyurethane sticks to it just fine.
>
> I say this from experience: a while back I applied a topcoat of finish
> to some friends' dining room table. I used oil-based (alkyd) varnish,
> assuming (foolishly as it turned out) that the finish was varnish.
>
> WRONG. It was lacquer, and the result was that the varnish simple beaded
> up and formed ugly rivulets on the surface. I quickly sopped it all up,
> got a can of brushing lacquer and used that instead.
I certainly don't doubt your experience, but yours differs from mine so
at some level we must be talking apples and oranges. You don't describe
exactly what product you were using, or what information you have that
led you to believe the base coat was lacquer and not something else, so
I don't know what to make of what you've told me.
> You really cannot apply varnish over lacquer. Don't believe me? try it
> sometime.
I wouldn't have been making my original claims without already having
done that (plenty of times), but I went ahead and did it again just to
make sure I'm not yet getting senile.
I took a nice smooth piece of scrap walnut (bare, no existing finish)
and sprayed it with about 8 or 10 coats of standard (Deft)
nitrocellulose lacquer (three heavy coats, wait until dry, repeated two
more times), let it cure for a week, then sanded it smooth with 320 grit
until there was no gloss (you did do that on your friend's table,
right?). I then applied a single nice wet coat of Behlen's Rockhard
Table Top Varnish and let it dry. Perfection.
How the Behlen's product compares in composition to what you were using
I have no idea. They don't list the ingredients on the can, but they
claim it's a 'quality phenolic resin "short" oil varnish'. I've also
seen it described as being alkyd based, and its behavior is consistent
(in my experience) with other varnishes that I know to be alkyd based.
> By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
> significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
> within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
> sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.
My experience here is the same as what Robatoy already described in his
response.
--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
sump pump not working ?
Drainage along the house not working ?
Martin
RicodJour wrote:
> On Oct 31, 11:34 am, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5398785401940746434
>
> More importantly, what's up with this?
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5167794062725600178
>
> R
-MIKE- wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> Likely Birch, could be (soft?) maple, and possibly poplar/tulip.
>
>
> Ding! on the Birch. (Where was my brain?) I think you're right about
> that, but it doesn't look like Poplar to me. That door looks like Birch
> ply.
Thanks. I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
replacement. The cabinets are mid 1950's vintage, very plain but decent
quality.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
-MIKE- wrote:
> Can you tell if that door is plywood. I can't see enough detail on the
> edges to tell for sure.
>
> If it's simply a piece of plywood with beveled (or curved) edge, you're
> is good shape.
> You can use the cut-offs of plywood to play around with the finish until
> you get it just right.
>
> Might also give you a good excuse to take all the doors off, give them a
> chemical stripper bath, and refinish all of them. Well... then you might
> as well do the face frames. :-)
>
> oops, sorry.
I'm almost certain that the doors are cabinet grade plywood with two
cabinet grade sides. The doors are flat and plain with only a beveled
edge. Looking at the edges, I can see the thin veneer layer.
I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
Especially refinishing all the doors.
But I'm more than willing to try to learn a new skill to save the money of
replacing them.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Steve Turner wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>
>> More importantly, what's up with this?
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5167794062725600178
That's a house I briefly looked at when I was house shopping. A nice
house, and close to where I work, but I just wasn't in the market for an
indoor pool. :-)
> Yowsers. Hey, check this stuff out:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5342028647671709442
>
> We used to make "salad" out of that stuff when we were kids. It's like
> nature's sweet tarts. Hopefully it's not poisonous... :-)
That's Woodsorrel. If you like you're welcome to graze on what's left. I
finally found a weedkiller that works on it so there is a lot less in my
yard than there used to be.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
>
>> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
>> Especially refinishing all the doors.
>
> Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in the
> first place?
>
> Are they in bad shape? Surface dirty? (If so, then they need cleaning,
> not refinishing.)
In their current state, they are an eyesore. In the most worn areas (just
under and around the handles), the finish is gone.
None of the cleaners I've tried has made them look decent.
> Is the surface scarred? Then you might have a case for refinishing.
> However, judging by that picture, they're in very good shape.
I picked a spot to photograph where they are in good shape. I thought that
might make identifying the wood easier.
> Do you not like the color? Then you may have to refinish.
I don't like the color, but I can live with it.
> If the existing finish is just a little dingy in places--maybe a little
> water damage here and there, missing finish in spots--then it might just
> need some spot retouching, not refinishing.
That pretty well describes it.
Instead of a full strip, I have hopes that a very light sanding (I've read
how easy it is to sand through thin veneer) and application of a new
finish will make them look a lot better.
> What I'm getting at is that refinishing wood is, in most cases,
> something to be avoided at all costs. Think about it: the first problem
> is getting the old finish off. This means using nasty poisonous chemical
> strippers; really no other way to do it. Then you've got to somehow
> scrape off the majority of the gunk (dissolved old finish), making sure
> you don't embed it in every nook, cranny and corner. Then you need to
> somehow smooth the surface, probably by sanding, in such a way that you
> remove the last remnants of the old finish *without* gouging or cupping
> the surface or sanding though the face veneer.
>
> It is possible to have things like this stripped at a commercial
> facility that will basically dunk them in a huge tank of stripper, and
> basically deliver you stripped, ready-to-finish doors. (Although I don't
> know how well plywood panels will hold up in such a process without
> warping or delaminating.) And that'll cost $$$, of course.
>
> If you somehow get through all this without screwing up (very easy to
> do), then you've got to stain the doors, taking care to get a consistent
> color without streaks or dark or light patches. Then seal the surface.
> Then apply several coats of clear finish.
>
> So you might be biting off more than you want to chew here.
Yes, I could end up needing new kitchen cabinets. Since that also happens
to be my current situation, I don't think I have much to lose but my time
and the relatively low (compared to paying for new cabinets) cost of
materials.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
-MIKE- wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>> On 10/31/2009 12:56 PM Tony Sivori spake thus:
>>
>>> I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
>>> Especially refinishing all the doors.
>>
>> Yes. The first question is, why do you want to refinish the doors in
>> the first place?
>>
>>
> Did you read the whole thread?
>
> "I'm missing a small cabinet door, and I want try to make a
> replacement."
Job one is to replace the missing door.
If that goes well, I do hope to address the finish on the rest of the
doors. When I bought the house a couple of years ago, I had planned to
replace the cabinets. But if I can make them good enough to suit
myself, I could use the money saved elsewhere.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
J. Clarke wrote:
>
> Getting an exact match without refinishing everything is something that
> is going to take some trial and error on a sample.
I'm thinking that my best chance of it being less noticeable is if I also
replace the missing door's mate. It is the cabinet above the stove, so
except for the cabinet above the refrigerator, it is the least noticeable
doors.
> The quick and dirty way to deal with the problem is to make the
> replacement door out of poplar, which takes paint well, and then paint
> everything.
I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim painter.
Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Steve Turner wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 8:34 pm, Tony Sivori <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Job one is to replace the missing door.
>>>
>>> If that goes well, I do hope to address the finish on the rest of the
>>> doors. When I bought the house a couple of years ago, I had planned to
>>> replace the cabinets. But if I can make them good enough to suit
>>> myself, I could use the money saved elsewhere.
>>
>> Have you established what kind of finish is on there, Tony?
No I haven't. I was thinking of trying a polyurethane. Is that likely to
react badly with the 54 year old finish?
> Question: If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
> finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? If yes, then it's
> shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
> you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.
91% rubbing alcohol did not remove the finish or the shine. The white
towel I used to apply it did turn yellowish.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>> More importantly, what's up with this?
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5167794062725600178
> sump pump not working ?
> Drainage along the house not working ?
I'm not sure.
Maybe there wasn't a sump pump. Or maybe the power had been cut. It was
just a vacant for sale house that was listed in the Multiple Listing
Service (MLS). As soon as I saw that crawlspace, I went on to the next
one.
This one is my house, in the ice storm Louisville had last winter. When
that branch hit the roof at 3 AM, it sounded like it might end up in bed
with me!
http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivori/House#5297175940832823010
That ice storm resulted in the worst power outage in Kentucky history.
--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:56:52 -0400, Tony Sivori <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
>Especially refinishing all the doors.
>
>But I'm more than willing to try to learn a new skill to save the money of
>replacing them.
I'd take one of those cabinet doors with me to the lumber retailer so
as to get the best match.