Li-ion Batteries

On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 21:58:54 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 21:18:34 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>>>> and the original registration info.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
>>>parts had to be reregistered.
>>You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number of
>>the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery, they
>>would record and re-register the serial of the replacement - but that
>>would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of the ridgid
>>brand, IIRC)
>
>Ridgid is owned by Emerson Electric. I don't know that they use the
>brand for anyone other than HD, though. They certainly sell to
>others. It's a rather large company.
I overstated it. Emerson OWNS the Ridgid brand. I believe in North
America the rights to the name are held by Home Depot through a
licencing agreement - since no-one else can sell the Ridgid brand of
power tools in North America, they "effectively" "own" the brand.

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 21:18:34 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>>>> and the original registration info.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
>>> parts had to be reregistered.
>> You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number of
>> the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery, they
>> would record and re-register the serial of the replacement - but that
>> would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of the ridgid
>> brand, IIRC)
>
> Ridgid is owned by Emerson Electric. I don't know that they use the
> brand for anyone other than HD, though. They certainly sell to
> others. It's a rather large company.

i think it is a unique business arrangement with HD. Some Ridgid tools are
and or were available elsewhere, think shop vac, but a vast majority of the
new Ridgid power tools are only available through HD.. Ryobi has a similar
arangement with HD, years ago you could buy Ryobi most any where. Sears
had that, a similar arrangement with the Craftsman brand name, now you can
buy Craftsman at Ace Hardware.

On 9/2/2014 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/2/14, 8:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that
>>>>>>>>>> I'm considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this?
>>>>>>>>>> I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs without any
>>>>>>>>>> difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds
>>>>>>>>> potentially dangerous, but you must understand what you
>>>>>>>>> are doing!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have
>>>>>>>> the right charger. If the batteries are registered for
>>>>>>>> the lifetime warranty though, it could be a waste of time
>>>>>>>> since they'll be replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under
>>>>>>> that but they didn't say you had to tell them the serial
>>>>>>> numbers of the new batteries to keep it in effect.I
>>>>>>> contacted them and they weren't very helpful in getting it
>>>>>>> changed. Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that
>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed
>>>>> warranty and the original registration info.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that
>>>> replaced parts had to be reregistered.
>>> You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number
>>> of the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery,
>>> they would record and re-register the serial of the replacement -
>>> but that would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of
>>> the ridgid brand, IIRC)
>>
>> Business 101, make the discount or freeby more difficult so that the
>> appearance of a good deal brings the customer in but does not get
>> fulfilled for what ever reason. Coupons bring attention to a
>> product and offer a discount but the amount of coupons that are
>> actually used vs. distributed is very very very small. Free
>> replacement batteries bought by HD and given away is an expense that
>> they would rather not fulfill, so you have to jump through a few
>> hoops as discouragement. The offer of free replacement encourages you
>> to buy from HD and costs them nothing, untimely they have to make
>> good after a period of time. If it was a matter of simply walking in
>> with a battery for exchange they probably would not be able to afford
>> the generous warranty. Making the customer resister and send off
>> for replacement parts after the sale is an convenience that most will
>> forget or not have time to wait for.
>>
>
> I guess I didn't see the registration process as jumping through hoops.
> We've become so accustomed to instant access/results from everything
> these days that filling out a registration card and mailing it in with a
> receipt is seen as jumping through hoops.

Perhaps not that bad but you do not have to register 99% of most any
products to get warranty work, you only need proof of purchase. Mostly
registration helps to speed the process should work need to be done
later on.

>
> Last I checked, those batteries were about a hundred a pop. It took me
> about 45 mins to complete my registration process. I don't know about
> you, but I don't make $267/hr. :-)

Exactly and for a few of us that is the case. But if a contractor walks
in to buy a replacement drill than he needs NOW and where time is money,
the extra steps and time of getting a replacement part is simply
ignored. When you need a part NOW waiting for an exchange is not going
to factor in.


>
> I haven't had to *use* my warranty yet, however. We'll see how easy the
> process is whenever that happens. Maybe I'll be back here b!t@hing and
> moaning about it then, who knows? :-)
>
>
From what I understand you have to send the parts/tool to a repair
facility and wait for the return shipment. If time is on your side, no
problem.

On 9/2/2014 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/2/2014 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/2/14, 8:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this?
>>>>>>>>>>> I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs without any
>>>>>>>>>>> difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds
>>>>>>>>>> potentially dangerous, but you must understand what you
>>>>>>>>>> are doing!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have
>>>>>>>>> the right charger. If the batteries are registered for
>>>>>>>>> the lifetime warranty though, it could be a waste of time
>>>>>>>>> since they'll be replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under
>>>>>>>> that but they didn't say you had to tell them the serial
>>>>>>>> numbers of the new batteries to keep it in effect.I
>>>>>>>> contacted them and they weren't very helpful in getting it
>>>>>>>> changed. Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that
>>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed
>>>>>> warranty and the original registration info.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that
>>>>> replaced parts had to be reregistered.
>>>> You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number
>>>> of the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery,
>>>> they would record and re-register the serial of the replacement -
>>>> but that would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of
>>>> the ridgid brand, IIRC)
>>>
>>> Business 101, make the discount or freeby more difficult so that the
>>> appearance of a good deal brings the customer in but does not get
>>> fulfilled for what ever reason. Coupons bring attention to a
>>> product and offer a discount but the amount of coupons that are
>>> actually used vs. distributed is very very very small. Free
>>> replacement batteries bought by HD and given away is an expense that
>>> they would rather not fulfill, so you have to jump through a few
>>> hoops as discouragement. The offer of free replacement encourages you
>>> to buy from HD and costs them nothing, untimely they have to make
>>> good after a period of time. If it was a matter of simply walking in
>>> with a battery for exchange they probably would not be able to afford
>>> the generous warranty. Making the customer resister and send off
>>> for replacement parts after the sale is an convenience that most will
>>> forget or not have time to wait for.
>>>
>>
>> I guess I didn't see the registration process as jumping through hoops.
>> We've become so accustomed to instant access/results from everything
>> these days that filling out a registration card and mailing it in with a
>> receipt is seen as jumping through hoops.
>
> Perhaps not that bad but you do not have to register 99% of most any
> products to get warranty work, you only need proof of purchase. Mostly
> registration helps to speed the process should work need to be done
> later on.
>
>>
>> Last I checked, those batteries were about a hundred a pop. It took me
>> about 45 mins to complete my registration process. I don't know about
>> you, but I don't make $267/hr. :-)
>
> Exactly and for a few of us that is the case. But if a contractor walks
> in to buy a replacement drill than he needs NOW and where time is money,
> the extra steps and time of getting a replacement part is simply
> ignored. When you need a part NOW waiting for an exchange is not going
> to factor in.
>
>
>>
>> I haven't had to *use* my warranty yet, however. We'll see how easy the
>> process is whenever that happens. Maybe I'll be back here b!t@hing and
>> moaning about it then, who knows? :-)
>>
>>
> From what I understand you have to send the parts/tool to a repair
> facility and wait for the return shipment. If time is on your side, no
> problem.


And just another observation, HD probably would not be selling
replacement batteries for Ridgid tools if the process of free warranty
replacement was quick and easy.

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 8:26:24 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
=20
>=20
> i think it is a unique business arrangement with HD. Some Ridgid tools a=
re
>=20
> and or were available elsewhere, think shop vac, but a vast majority of t=
he
>=20
> new Ridgid power tools are only available through HD.. Ryobi has a simil=
ar
>=20
> arangement with HD, years ago you could buy Ryobi most any where. Sears
>=20
> had that, a similar arrangement with the Craftsman brand name, now you ca=
n
>=20
> buy Craftsman at Ace Hardware.

I think the big difference is how the tools are designed and manufactured. =
I love to see how business changes and how they are run. It seems these d=
ays that most really large companies have little to do with some of their o=
wn products, other than to make sure the numbers "work". An outside engine=
ering firm brings a design for a new sander to a Big Box Store, and their t=
eam evaluates the service life, the usablility, the design, and the most im=
portant aspect, cost to manufacture. There is no doubt that some of the BB=
Ss have an interest in the companies they choose, but don't own them. They=
do however, own all other aspects of their product including the engineeri=
ng designs, distribution, etc.

Distributing a mass produced name friendly product across many channels jus=
t makes sense. For the most part, the higher the count of manufactured wid=
gets goes, the less price per widget results. So why not sell a mediocre br=
and like Sears anywhere you can? Same with Ridgid; they sell Ridgid tools =
(in a limited selection) at our largest plumbing supplier here, and now I s=
ee they have Ridgid recon items, brand new batteries and other Ridgid neces=
saries at CPO Outlets.

At once time, HD had a licensing deal with Ryobi. I think I read that Ryob=
i has since been purchased in whole or part by HD but don't know. So, 20+ =
years ago I wanted a new, powerful 14.4 drill. Ryobi was the only affordab=
le one out there, and I got a tip from a guy working there at HD that their=
other brands had been coming back as returns, but not the Ryobi. It was m=
arked "Ryobi Industrial" on the box. He assured me that the brand was big =
everywhere but here in the USA.

As much in their infancy as USABLE battery powered tools were in those days=
, that drill was a winner and lasted about 5 years on the job as my only co=
rdless drill. When I decided to retire it, it was because of the price of =
replacing two batteries (think 15 years ago). Now Ryobi is quite different=
and is now a name like so many others. Look halfway down the page and see=
if you recognize any of the brands owned by this investment group:

http://www.ttigroup.com/en/our_brands/

I think most tools these days are designed not with long term usability lik=
e Festool does, but more for a guy looking for utility value. Personally, =
I am somewhere in the middle. I love using a really nice tool, but find it=
hard to let go of the cash these days. And for the most part, unless you =
jump all the way up to a Festool type brand, I am not so sure we get much d=
ifference in our tools these days regardless of what we spend.

Robert=20

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 21:58:54 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 21:18:34 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>>>>> and the original registration info.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
>>>> parts had to be reregistered.
>>> You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number of
>>> the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery, they
>>> would record and re-register the serial of the replacement - but that
>>> would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of the ridgid
>>> brand, IIRC)
>>
>> Ridgid is owned by Emerson Electric. I don't know that they use the
>> brand for anyone other than HD, though. They certainly sell to
>> others. It's a rather large company.
> I overstated it. Emerson OWNS the Ridgid brand. I believe in North
> America the rights to the name are held by Home Depot through a
> licencing agreement - since no-one else can sell the Ridgid brand of
> power tools in North America, they "effectively" "own" the brand.

It would appear that way but you can buy Rigid brand vacuums and
accessories through a number of retailers and Amazon.
While HD sells the vast majority of the Ridgid product line some of the
line is available elsewhere.

"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> I tend to charge often. If I have been using a fair amount of battery
> power, I put it on charge when I quit for the night. If you believe
> what you read, it does not hurt the battery in life or output to
> charge often, so that works for me.

How old are your batteries? I've been getting 3-5 years out of my Li-Ion
batteries before I notice a big drop off in charging capacity. I usually
wait until the tool is slowing down or starts impacting early, so it'd be
interesting to see if your method is any different.

Admittedly, I probably did kill the 18V screwdriver batteries by using
them in the circular saw. But I've got Lithium Ion laptop batteries that
are all dieing in that same time frame.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2014 08:32:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon wrote:
>> On 8/31/2014 7:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> James wrote:
>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
>>>>> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
>>>>> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>
>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
>>>> but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right
>>> charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty
>>> though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for
>>> free under the warranty.
>>
>> Actually overhauling L-Ion battery cells are not as easy as simply
>> replacing cells. Most rebuild places do not deal with these type
>> batteries as each cell needs to be tested to be comparable with the
>> other cells that they will be mated with. It is more than simply
>> using the correct smart charger.
>
>Yes - it is. Oversimplification on my part in my previous answer to Bill.
>It does seem that more rebuild guys are saying they won't do L-Ion these
>days - or maybe it just seems that it's more of them. Seemed to me that
>when L-Ion first came out most of these guys were offering to upgrade old
>NiCad packs to L-Ion. I haven't seen any commentary on a requirement to
>pair cells, so if that's true it comes as news to me. Sourcing the
>batteries can still be a bit of a task though.
A friend of mine just built a high capacity bank of lithium ion cells
for his electric Miata - 144 volt pack, each cell about twice the size
of a lb of butter. The protection circuits are "generic" - one per
cell, and what they do is basically bypass the cell during charging if
the cell temperature gets too high or (not sure) if the voltage gets
out of spec. The charge controllers/protectors are not specific to the
particular cells. There is a way to "turn on" the cell again if it
shuts down due to over discharge(low voltage shutdown protection)

On 9/2/2014 9:11 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> It would appear that way but you can buy Rigid brand vacuums and
>> accessories through a number of retailers and Amazon.
>> While HD sells the vast majority of the Ridgid product line some of
>> the line is available elsewhere.
>
> Never looked, but I did not realize you could buy Rigid products outside of
> Home Depot. I knew they had a brand nationwide prior to the HD licensing,
> but I didn't realize they made that available other places.
>


Yeah, Amazon and several suppliers through Amazon offer Ridgid vac's and
accessories and then countless rebuild places like CPO.

I'm sure most of what you can buy at HD is not going to be available new
elsewhere, but not all.

<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>>
>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>>> and the original registration info.
>>>
>>>
>> I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
>> parts had to be reregistered.
> You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number of
> the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery, they
> would record and re-register the serial of the replacement - but that
> would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of the ridgid
> brand, IIRC)

Business 101, make the discount or freeby more difficult so that the
appearance of a good deal brings the customer in but does not get fulfilled
for what ever reason. Coupons bring attention to a product and offer a
discount but the amount of coupons that are actually used vs. distributed
is very very very small. Free replacement batteries bought by HD and
given away is an expense that they would rather not fulfill, so you have to
jump through a few hoops as discouragement.
The offer of free replacement encourages you to buy from HD and costs them
nothing, untimely they have to make good after a period of time. If it was
a matter of simply walking in with a battery for exchange they probably
would not be able to afford the generous warranty. Making the customer
resister and send off for replacement parts after the sale is an
convenience that most will forget or not have time to wait for.

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 2:49:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> > An outside engineering firm brings a design for
>=20
> > a new sander to a Big Box Store, and their team evaluates the service
>=20
> > life, the usablility, the design, and the most important aspect, cost
>=20
> > to manufacture. There is no doubt that some of the BBSs have an
>=20
> > interest in the companies they choose, but don't own them. They do
>=20
> > however, own all other aspects of their product including the
>=20
> > engineering designs, distribution, etc.
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
> Not sure I agree witth that at at Robert. I think you're giving way too=
=20
>=20
> much credit for the involvment by the retailer. I don't believe they get=
=20
>=20
> into it to that level, at all. I think that at the very best, they chose=
a=20
>=20
> tier one manufacturer that they may want to represent, and they then=20
>=20
> negotiate for exclusivity, or some other prefered marketing strength - bu=
t=20
>=20
> not at all based on any outside engineering firm, evaluations, etc. as yo=
u=20
>=20
> suggest above.

We're probably pretty close in agreement on this, Mike. The only outside e=
ngineering firm studies would not necessarily be to favor the consumer. Th=
e studies would be "does this tool exhibit inherent danger when not used as=
designed by some idiot", and "how sturdy is it? We need to be able to man=
age the amount of returns/store labor when this item is RTVed" and "can the=
consumer easily remove guards and safety devices?" are the questions asked=
. Not how accurate does it saw, how much low end torque does it have to dr=
ill large holes, or how many hours will it sand without the pad coming off.=
Let's face it; 99% of tools sold are never used to their potential, never=
used daily by a professional that relies on them to make a living, and mos=
t fall apart from age before they wear out. So the trick becomes to design=
a tool (like our automobiles, computers, refrigerators, etc.) that is "jus=
t good enough".

I had a friend of mine here in town that designed and patented a nested wre=
nch to be used by plumbers. He got his numbers together, had a bunch made,=
and did alright with them selling them by himself. He submitted it to Hom=
e Depot for evaluation. The liked it! No new or inherent dangers in the d=
esign, easy to use, clever, and handy! Next step, marketing. They decided=
they needed to cut the cost to have a broader appeal. So they specified a=
lower grade of tool steel and helped him get estimates based on an order o=
f 2500 initial units. The cost was still too high, and their folks pulled =
out their actuarial tables for normal life of a tool like this, and decided=
one way to cut the cost was to drop the lifetime warranty to one year. St=
ill too high; they liked the design, and thought it would sell if it was pr=
iced right. Soooooo... they helped him get bids from a Chinese manufacture=
r.=20

Now he has a tool that has almost no warranty, is made from a lesser grade =
tool steel, and is made in China. Almost there... if he gave up a larger s=
take in the company to an investment group, they would design a new splashy=
package for it, rename it, and interface with Home Depot for product promo=
tion. During this time, he had to sign an agreement with Home Depot that s=
aid that he could see the end results of all the engineering, >>but not the=
data itself<<, and could not use the engineering, testing or anything else=
that they developed on their side of the project. So they owned all the i=
ntellectual property (which is fair) because he couldn't pay for all the pr=
oduct testing, market studies, and the manufacturing viability studies to m=
ake it a mass manufactured tool. He had no access to any of the informatio=
n they developed since he didn't pay for it. But he still owned the wrench=
and his patent.=20

The end of the story was that they decided to hedge their marketing bets on=
e more time and lower the retail cost of the product by changing the packag=
ing and lower his part of the take. He was so depressed that he gave up. =
The whole process took a little over three years and cost him about $10,000=
to keep submitting samples, flying here and there to make his presentation=
, and to get real engineered plans drawn up before they would take a hard l=
ook.

Here is where you are spot on. I spoke that that great guy that used to be=
the head tool guy of our region for HD and told him that story when they w=
ere introducing Hilti products into HD. He said he had heard it a million =
times. He was surprised the wrench got as far as it did. He said that HD =
works with engineering firms in China that try to design a product good for=
the US market while working with HD's general parameters. They submit a d=
esign to HD with all associated data, results, testing, cost to manufacture=
, etc., as a FINISHED PRODUCT. He said that if HD doesn't buy it, they wil=
l peddle it another vendor that wants to badge it and sell it. HD evaluate=
s the finished product, then makes any tweaks they want before manufacture.=
They have nothing to do with design, performance, etc., other than to kee=
p their long term marketing numbers in line.

> > And for the most part, unless you jump all the way up to a Festool
>=20
> > type brand, I am not so sure we get much difference in our tools
>=20
> > these days regardless of what we spend.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Unfortunately, I think that is true. It's just too bad that you have to=
=20
>=20
> make such a leap up to the brands like Festool. Great tools without a=20
>=20
> doubt, but they are playing the same game - market to the quality focused=
=20
>=20
> consumre and rape them on the price under the notion that they are buying=
=20
>=20
> quality. But - where else are you going to go to buy a higher level of=
=20
>=20
> quality than the standard offering?

Nowhere I know of. I remember when I saved up and bought my first Milwaukee=
Hole Shooter in '75, and my Rockwell circular saw in '76. Bought them bot=
h at an industrial contractor's store, and they were great. The drill stil=
l works!

Now I buy a "good" cordless drill for $300 and I am pleased if they last 3 =
years or so. That's why I posted a while back that I was going to give the=
y Ryobi Li drill/impact driver set they had on sale for $99. It has a three=
year warranty, but don't know how that will work yet. But using the metri=
c of $100 a year like I have for the last 2 DeWalts I have owned, the drill=
only has to last ONE year to be its equal in utility value. And I still h=
ave the impact driver to boot. Then there is that 3 year warranty...

I don't know. I get no joy out of purchasing tools like I did a few decade=
s ago, and now at today's prices and poor quality it is just downright depr=
essing. I will pay to get what I want (I won't pay over $500 for a simple =
single task Festool drill) but don't want my pants around my ankles when I =
pay for it. Even the Domino is now listed at $925!! The only person I hav=
e ever met that uses their Domino to capacity and uses a Domino as a tool t=
hat pays its way is Leon. I have seen nice, used table saws go for less th=
an that.

I have said this before; I make a living with my tools. I depend on my too=
ls for their performance and reliability. But more and more I am looking h=
ard at the price to value ratio when buying as I don't feel like I am getti=
ng what I paid for when I buy.

Robert

James wrote:
> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>
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I took some li-ion batteries to Batteries Plus. The technician said
he had been to school to learn how to replace them but that the
company forbade them to do it because of the potential danger.

--
 GW Ross 

 Never insult an alligator until 
 you've crossed the river. 

On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 20:01:32 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>James <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs ...
>
>Have you been able to make this practical? Every time I
>price rebuild kits, I find that you can buy a whole new
>battery for about the same price.

Two things, the cells the rebuilders use are better than those in the
OEM tools and they will rebuild batteries that I can no longer buy.
FFOr some tools, the tools with the charger and batteries can be
cheaper, on sale, than the replacement batteries alone.

On 8/31/2014 11:55 PM, Leon wrote:

FWIW, From the Primecell web site concerning Li-Ion batteries

Li-Ion = Lithium Ion rechargeable battery. Single cell = 3.6V empty,
4.1 Volts full

Li-Ion batteries require a special charging system. Other types of
batteries may not be substituted. If your electronic appliance
operates from Li-Ion batteries - it must be replaced with Li-Ion.

Because of the cost and short life span of Li-Ion batteries we receive
many requests to rebuild them. Unfortunately we must refuse to rebuild
Li-Ion batteries at the present time. Li-Ion cells are not readily
available. The single cells that would be required for replacement when
rebuilding a battery are not offered to the open market. They are
controlled by the manufacturers to be used only in approved designs and
by original equipment manufacturers. There are many dealers selling
Li-Ion on eBay - they can only be old cells or removed from equipment.
The cells are only part of the problem. There are charge controls and
safety circuits that must be tested, and properly connected when
replacing the original cells.

A safety circuit PC board is attached to the cells to control
temperature, voltage, and current, flowing to - and from the cells.
Each battery pack is made with a specific circuit that is exclusive to
that specific design. Some batteries have a programmed chip - if the
voltage has been allowed to drop so low as to lose the program, or if we
fail to transfer the data to the new cell stack, the new pack cannot be
charged (Usually found in Laptop applications).

On 8/31/2014 7:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
>>> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
>>> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>
>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
>> but you must understand what you are doing!
>>
>
> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right charger.
> If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty though, it could
> be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for free under the warranty.
>

Actually overhauling L-Ion battery cells are not as easy as simply
replacing cells. Most rebuild places do not deal with these type
batteries as each cell needs to be tested to be comparable with the
other cells that they will be mated with. It is more than simply using
the correct smart charger.

It would be best to let Ridgid replace the packs as you mentioned or
simply buying new or already rebuilt by a qualified rebuilder.

On 9/2/2014 3:01 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> James <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs ...
>
> Have you been able to make this practical? Every time I
> price rebuild kits, I find that you can buy a whole new
> battery for about the same price.
>


This is mostly true but it is likely the new batteries have been sitting
around for a while. I purchased new Panasonic batteries once and they
did not last long at all. Rebuilts tend to be rebuilt with relatively
young cells.

On 9/1/2014 7:32 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/31/2014 7:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> James wrote:
>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
>>>>> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
>>>>> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>
>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
>>>> but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right
>>> charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty
>>> though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for
>>> free under the warranty.
>>
>> Actually overhauling L-Ion battery cells are not as easy as simply
>> replacing cells. Most rebuild places do not deal with these type
>> batteries as each cell needs to be tested to be comparable with the
>> other cells that they will be mated with. It is more than simply
>> using the correct smart charger.
>
> Yes - it is. Oversimplification on my part in my previous answer to Bill.
> It does seem that more rebuild guys are saying they won't do L-Ion these
> days - or maybe it just seems that it's more of them. Seemed to me that
> when L-Ion first came out most of these guys were offering to upgrade old
> NiCad packs to L-Ion. I haven't seen any commentary on a requirement to
> pair cells, so if that's true it comes as news to me. Sourcing the
> batteries can still be a bit of a task though.
>

From what I have read else where and which is backed up by the Prime
cell site is that the batteries circuitry controls whether the battery
cells will receive a charge or not depending on its current voltage,
temperature. If you put in a mix of cells that are not very close to
the same voltage to begin with the charger may not properly charge all
of the cells. I have also read, in at least where the better battery
brands are concerned the cells used are each tested so that they all
have very similar voltages when grouped to become a battery. Not a
problem if you have hundreds or thousands on hand. If an individual
buys 4~5, 3.6 to 4.1 volt cells, for the typical cordless drill he may
actually need many more to get a close voltage match to begin with.
This is doable but not practical for the occasional battery rebuild.
And while you see this being done the results probably are not going to
be a good solution long term. If the cells are not properly matched to
begin with the life span for the unit probably is not going to be as
long. I suspect that when you have to stand behind your product the
extra expense of testing and grouping these cells might be the reason
that you don't easily find a battery rebuild business that has been
around for an extended length of time rebuilding the Li-Ion batteries.

On 9/1/2014 5:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>
>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>
>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>> and the original registration info.
>
> I haven't looked at the warranty since I got my Ridgid tools. I do recall
> that you have to list the serial numbers of everything including the
> batteries during the initial registration, but I don't recall anything about
> replacements parts under the warranty. It would seem logical that batteries
> replaced under the warranty would be updated by the place doing the warranty
> work - but maybe not.
>


Mike that would seem logical, the replacements parts being preregistered
for you, but I get the feeling that Ridgid wants you to go the extra
mile to register everything. Because if you don't, the life time
warranty does not apply, that saves them money.

While the warranty is stellar you do have to go above and beyond to see
to it that all the parts are registered properly. Most tool
manufacturers only want to see proof of purchase.

On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>
>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>
>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>
>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
> and the original registration info.
>
>
I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
parts had to be reregistered.

On 9/2/2014 2:49 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the big difference is how the tools are designed and
>> manufactured. I love to see how business changes and how they are
>> run. It seems these days that most really large companies have
>> little to do with some of their own products, other than to make sure
>> the numbers "work". An outside engineering firm brings a design for
>> a new sander to a Big Box Store, and their team evaluates the service
>> life, the usablility, the design, and the most important aspect, cost
>> to manufacture. There is no doubt that some of the BBSs have an
>> interest in the companies they choose, but don't own them. They do
>> however, own all other aspects of their product including the
>> engineering designs, distribution, etc.
>>
>
> Not sure I agree witth that at at Robert. I think you're giving way too
> much credit for the involvment by the retailer. I don't believe they get
> into it to that level, at all. I think that at the very best, they chose a
> tier one manufacturer that they may want to represent, and they then
> negotiate for exclusivity, or some other prefered marketing strength - but
> not at all based on any outside engineering firm, evaluations, etc. as you
> suggest above.
>
>
>> Distributing a mass produced name friendly product across many
>> channels just makes sense. For the most part, the higher the count
>> of manufactured widgets goes, the less price per widget results. So
>> why not sell a mediocre brand like Sears anywhere you can? Same with
>> Ridgid; they sell Ridgid tools (in a limited selection) at our
>> largest plumbing supplier here, and now I see they have Ridgid recon
>> items, brand new batteries and other Ridgid necessaries at CPO
>> Outlets.
>
> Ridgid has always been sold at plumbing supply houses. Not sure how you are
> tieing that into your point. Sorry - but I don't know what CPO Outlets
> means.

Ridgid plumbing tools, not woodworking power tools.

CPO outlets sell new and reconditioned name brand power tools.

http://www.cpooutlets.com/





>
>> Now Ryobi is quite different and is now a name like so many others.
>> Look halfway down the page and see if you recognize any of the brands
>> owned by this investment group:
>>
>> http://www.ttigroup.com/en/our_brands/
>
> That list kind of surprised me Robert. I recall that they used to own more
> of the household names that we are familiar with today, than what currently
> appears on their web site. Things change I guess...
>
>>
>> I think most tools these days are designed not with long term
>> usability like Festool does, but more for a guy looking for utility
>> value. Personally, I am somewhere in the middle. I love using a
>> really nice tool, but find it hard to let go of the cash these days.
>> And for the most part, unless you jump all the way up to a Festool
>> type brand, I am not so sure we get much difference in our tools
>> these days regardless of what we spend.
>
> Unfortunately, I think that is true. It's just too bad that you have to
> make such a leap up to the brands like Festool. Great tools without a
> doubt, but they are playing the same game - market to the quality focused
> consumre and rape them on the price under the notion that they are buying
> quality. But - where else are you going to go to buy a higher level of
> quality than the standard offering?

I think that when PC and Milwaukee were the top quality tools their
prices were pretty darn high too. Prices on these tools have dropped
significantly to compete.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 11:36:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 9/2/2014 11:19 AM, Morgans wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote
>>
>>> From what I have read else where and which is backed up by the Prime
>>> cell site is that the batteries circuitry controls whether the battery
>>> cells will receive a charge or not depending on its current voltage,
>>> temperature. If you put in a mix of cells that are not very close to
>>> the same voltage to begin with the charger may not properly charge all
>>> of the cells.
>>
>> At least some packs use the same technology as is found in laptop
>> battery packs. Each cell is tested individually during the charging
>> process and the packs internal chip decides if it will be getting a
>> voltage during the next charging pulse. They equalize the weak cells
>> and bring them up to full strength while cutting power to cells that are
>> full, or to cells that are too hot during the charging process.
>
>No doubt however one does not know what is going on in every case with
>each manufacturer. The circuitry may or may not take care of voltage
>differences.
>
>
>>
>> I have a hobby charger that charges RC packs much the same way. It has
>> to have the correct hookups to use the full equalizing process. Many
>> say that if the user does not push the cells to absolute deadness, and
>> discharges the whole pack right after a charge once in a while that
>> balancing is not needed. I'm not convinced on that one.
>
>I have heard it is best to not run past 80% discharge and I suspect that
>is why most Li-Ion batteries have gas gauges these days. I have heard
>that some packs will not allow discharge beyond a certain point.
>
>
>
>
>
Make that MOST - like almost all.

On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> James wrote:
>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad
>>>> battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt with
>>>> Li-ion before. JIm
>>>
>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
>>> but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>
>>
>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right
>> charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty
>> though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for
>> free under the warranty.
>
> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but they
> didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new batteries
> to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't very helpful in
> getting it changed. Jim

Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.




>
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James wrote:
> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm

My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous, but
you must understand what you are doing!

>
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James wrote:

> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>

Never did it with my Ridgid batteries Jim - the warranty makes my efforts
not-necessary. Aren't yours registered for the lifetime warranty?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> James wrote:
>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
>> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
>> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>
> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
> but you must understand what you are doing!
>

Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right charger.
If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty though, it could
be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for free under the warranty.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"James" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm

Big thing is to use the on board charging chip, and connect them to your
cells correctly. If you do not have the chip, your charger will likely
not recognize the battery pack and refuse to charge it. It also will not
keep the pack correctly balanced and charged and will not shut down the pack
when it gets over heated, be it by charging, damage, discharging or hard
use. Now that can cause a fire, no doubt.

I refitted Li Ion batteries into NiCad packs. I used the brand's chips and
charger in the Li ion pack. I love it.
--
Jim in NC


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Leon wrote:
> On 8/31/2014 7:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> James wrote:
>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
>>>> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
>>>> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>
>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
>>> but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>
>>
>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right
>> charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty
>> though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for
>> free under the warranty.
>
> Actually overhauling L-Ion battery cells are not as easy as simply
> replacing cells. Most rebuild places do not deal with these type
> batteries as each cell needs to be tested to be comparable with the
> other cells that they will be mated with. It is more than simply
> using the correct smart charger.

Yes - it is. Oversimplification on my part in my previous answer to Bill.
It does seem that more rebuild guys are saying they won't do L-Ion these
days - or maybe it just seems that it's more of them. Seemed to me that
when L-Ion first came out most of these guys were offering to upgrade old
NiCad packs to L-Ion. I haven't seen any commentary on a requirement to
pair cells, so if that's true it comes as news to me. Sourcing the
batteries can still be a bit of a task though.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:

> Bill wrote:
> > James wrote:
> > > HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
> > > considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad
> > > battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt with
> > > Li-ion before. JIm
> >
> > My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
> > but you must understand what you are doing!
> >
>
> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right
> charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty
> though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for
> free under the warranty.

I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but they
didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new batteries
to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't very helpful in
getting it changed. Jim

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James wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>> James wrote:
>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad
>>>> battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt with
>>>> Li-ion before. JIm
>>>
>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially dangerous,
>>> but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>
>>
>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the right
>> charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime warranty
>> though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be replaced for
>> free under the warranty.
>
> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but they
> didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
> batteries
> to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't very helpful in
> getting it changed. Jim
>

Ugh! That sucks Jim.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>> James wrote:
>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>
>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>
>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>
> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>
>

I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
and the original registration info.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>
>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>
>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>
>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
> and the original registration info.

I haven't looked at the warranty since I got my Ridgid tools. I do recall
that you have to list the serial numbers of everything including the
batteries during the initial registration, but I don't recall anything about
replacements parts under the warranty. It would seem logical that batteries
replaced under the warranty would be updated by the place doing the warranty
work - but maybe not.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

> It would appear that way but you can buy Rigid brand vacuums and
> accessories through a number of retailers and Amazon.
> While HD sells the vast majority of the Ridgid product line some of
> the line is available elsewhere.

Never looked, but I did not realize you could buy Rigid products outside of
Home Depot. I knew they had a brand nationwide prior to the HD licensing,
but I didn't realize they made that available other places.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 9/2/14, 8:26 AM, Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that
>>>>>>>>> I'm considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this?
>>>>>>>>> I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs without any
>>>>>>>>> difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds
>>>>>>>> potentially dangerous, but you must understand what you
>>>>>>>> are doing!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have
>>>>>>> the right charger. If the batteries are registered for
>>>>>>> the lifetime warranty though, it could be a waste of time
>>>>>>> since they'll be replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under
>>>>>> that but they didn't say you had to tell them the serial
>>>>>> numbers of the new batteries to keep it in effect.I
>>>>>> contacted them and they weren't very helpful in getting it
>>>>>> changed. Jim
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that
>>>>> process.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed
>>>> warranty and the original registration info.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that
>>> replaced parts had to be reregistered.
>> You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number
>> of the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery,
>> they would record and re-register the serial of the replacement -
>> but that would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of
>> the ridgid brand, IIRC)
>
> Business 101, make the discount or freeby more difficult so that the
> appearance of a good deal brings the customer in but does not get
> fulfilled for what ever reason. Coupons bring attention to a
> product and offer a discount but the amount of coupons that are
> actually used vs. distributed is very very very small. Free
> replacement batteries bought by HD and given away is an expense that
> they would rather not fulfill, so you have to jump through a few
> hoops as discouragement. The offer of free replacement encourages you
> to buy from HD and costs them nothing, untimely they have to make
> good after a period of time. If it was a matter of simply walking in
> with a battery for exchange they probably would not be able to afford
> the generous warranty. Making the customer resister and send off
> for replacement parts after the sale is an convenience that most will
> forget or not have time to wait for.
>

I guess I didn't see the registration process as jumping through hoops.
We've become so accustomed to instant access/results from everything
these days that filling out a registration card and mailing it in with a
receipt is seen as jumping through hoops.

Last I checked, those batteries were about a hundred a pop. It took me
about 45 mins to complete my registration process. I don't know about
you, but I don't make $267/hr. :-)

I haven't had to *use* my warranty yet, however. We'll see how easy the
process is whenever that happens. Maybe I'll be back here b!t@hing and
moaning about it then, who knows? :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote

> From what I have read else where and which is backed up by the Prime cell
> site is that the batteries circuitry controls whether the battery cells
> will receive a charge or not depending on its current voltage,
> temperature. If you put in a mix of cells that are not very close to the
> same voltage to begin with the charger may not properly charge all of the
> cells.

At least some packs use the same technology as is found in laptop battery
packs. Each cell is tested individually during the charging process and the
packs internal chip decides if it will be getting a voltage during the next
charging pulse. They equalize the weak cells and bring them up to full
strength while cutting power to cells that are full, or to cells that are
too hot during the charging process.

I have a hobby charger that charges RC packs much the same way. It has to
have the correct hookups to use the full equalizing process. Many say that
if the user does not push the cells to absolute deadness, and discharges the
whole pack right after a charge once in a while that balancing is not
needed. I'm not convinced on that one.
--
Jim in NC


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[email protected] wrote:

>
> I think the big difference is how the tools are designed and
> manufactured. I love to see how business changes and how they are
> run. It seems these days that most really large companies have
> little to do with some of their own products, other than to make sure
> the numbers "work". An outside engineering firm brings a design for
> a new sander to a Big Box Store, and their team evaluates the service
> life, the usablility, the design, and the most important aspect, cost
> to manufacture. There is no doubt that some of the BBSs have an
> interest in the companies they choose, but don't own them. They do
> however, own all other aspects of their product including the
> engineering designs, distribution, etc.
>

Not sure I agree witth that at at Robert. I think you're giving way too
much credit for the involvment by the retailer. I don't believe they get
into it to that level, at all. I think that at the very best, they chose a
tier one manufacturer that they may want to represent, and they then
negotiate for exclusivity, or some other prefered marketing strength - but
not at all based on any outside engineering firm, evaluations, etc. as you
suggest above.


> Distributing a mass produced name friendly product across many
> channels just makes sense. For the most part, the higher the count
> of manufactured widgets goes, the less price per widget results. So
> why not sell a mediocre brand like Sears anywhere you can? Same with
> Ridgid; they sell Ridgid tools (in a limited selection) at our
> largest plumbing supplier here, and now I see they have Ridgid recon
> items, brand new batteries and other Ridgid necessaries at CPO
> Outlets.

Ridgid has always been sold at plumbing supply houses. Not sure how you are
tieing that into your point. Sorry - but I don't know what CPO Outlets
means.

> Now Ryobi is quite different and is now a name like so many others.
> Look halfway down the page and see if you recognize any of the brands
> owned by this investment group:
>
> http://www.ttigroup.com/en/our_brands/

That list kind of surprised me Robert. I recall that they used to own more
of the household names that we are familiar with today, than what currently
appears on their web site. Things change I guess...

>
> I think most tools these days are designed not with long term
> usability like Festool does, but more for a guy looking for utility
> value. Personally, I am somewhere in the middle. I love using a
> really nice tool, but find it hard to let go of the cash these days.
> And for the most part, unless you jump all the way up to a Festool
> type brand, I am not so sure we get much difference in our tools
> these days regardless of what we spend.

Unfortunately, I think that is true. It's just too bad that you have to
make such a leap up to the brands like Festool. Great tools without a
doubt, but they are playing the same game - market to the quality focused
consumre and rape them on the price under the notion that they are buying
quality. But - where else are you going to go to buy a higher level of
quality than the standard offering?


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>,
James <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs ...

Have you been able to make this practical? Every time I
price rebuild kits, I find that you can buy a whole new
battery for about the same price.

--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

On 09/02/2014 1:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
...

>> ... Sears had that, a similar arrangement with the Craftsman brand
>> name, now you can buy Craftsman at Ace Hardware. ...

Slightly different w/ Craftsman. Sears (now called the Sears Holding
Company) OWNS the Craftsman trademark (TM) and marketed it exclusively
until got into so much trouble financially they decided to try to glom
onto anything they could get out of it from licensing arrangements.

--

On 09/02/2014 4:02 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 09/02/2014 1:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> ...
>
>>> ... Sears had that, a similar arrangement with the Craftsman brand
>>> name, now you can buy Craftsman at Ace Hardware. ...
>
> Slightly different w/ Craftsman. Sears (now called the Sears Holding
> Company) OWNS the Craftsman trademark (TM) and marketed it exclusively
> until got into so much trouble financially they decided to try to glom
> onto anything they could get out of it from licensing arrangements.
...

Which is only a prelude to the comment I really intended to make...this
proliferation of Craftsman probably has no real disadvantage in large
markets but in small ones like here where the Sears store is just one of
the affiliate catalog/small store ones, when the Ace Hardware is allowed
to sell Craftsman, too, that seems to me to be patently unfair to the
Sears franchise owners just on the other end of town a mile or two away...

While don't do much at Sears, (they're also the only GE appliance outlet
in town just as an aside) it's another problem with keeping any variety
at all in a small town; it would be an option gone if it can't/doesn't
survive and this ploy by their parent can't be helping.

--

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote
>
> I have heard it is best to not run past 80% discharge and I suspect that
> is why most Li-Ion batteries have gas gauges these days. I have heard
> that some packs will not allow discharge beyond a certain point.
>
I used the Kobalt battery packs to rebuild my old NiCad packs, and they
appear to cycle through the batteries as they charge.

The same lights that are the fuel gauge blink one at a time, progressively
as a normal charge takes place. I think I also read that the charger
equalizes the batteries, also. They will not charge they are too hot, I
know. They will not charge if you fry the onboard chip circuitry.
Unfortunately, I know that to be true after a blob of hot solder dropped
onto the chip. The battery does stoop putting out juice when the demands on
it are too high. If the voltage is getting low, it will put out fairly high
amps. After the voltage gets lower, it will not put out hardly any amps
before it turns off.

I tend to charge often. If I have been using a fair amount of battery
power, I put it on charge when I quit for the night. If you believe what
you read, it does not hurt the battery in life or output to charge often, so
that works for me.
--
Jim in NC


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"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote

> How old are your batteries? I've been getting 3-5 years out of my Li-Ion
> batteries before I notice a big drop off in charging capacity. I usually
> wait until the tool is slowing down or starts impacting early, so it'd be
> interesting to see if your method is any different.
>

I am just now changing over, so I am not deep enough into the age curve to
have any data.

> Admittedly, I probably did kill the 18V screwdriver batteries by using
> them in the circular saw. But I've got Lithium Ion laptop batteries that
> are all dieing in that same time frame.

Yes, it is true that the lower amp hour batteries like are to be found in
screwdrivers and other entry level tools do not much like an extremely high
drain user like a circular saw. I am not getting any low capacity
batteries, to extend run times in drills and drivers, and to always have a
high capacity cell ready for saws and such. I am using the Kobalt 4.0 amp
hour battery as my rebuilding stock, so far. It has to be ordered online
from Lowes in many areas, but is a deal for that capacity for around 89
bucks. Much better value than any other brand I am aware of.

I did do an experiment by ordering ultra high capacity cells the next size
larger online. Extreme caution on this. The Chinese suppliers will stamp
most any capacity on a cell to make the sale. Many test out at only 15% of
the stamped capacity. Do research before buying cells by reading reviews of
someone who has bought the cells and tested the capacity.

Anyway, I order 6 cells of 4.5 amp hour cells (1860 size?) and got them, and
checked each cell's capacity on my hobby charger, and they did pretty well
averaging around 4350 milliamp hours. Put them together and used them, and
they lasted forever per charge. Then they started fading, so I took the
pack apart to check it. One cell had gone to a near complete dead short.
No problem, says I, I only used 5 of the 6 cells I ordered, so I can just
switch out the bad one. Problem is that I put the extra cell somewhere safe
and can't find it! I was using the hobby charger without the balancer, but
when I find the missing cell, I will put it back together with a charging
plug to accommodate the balancer.

By the way, do you all know that the larger capacity packs are simply a
doubled up smaller pack. They are 10 cells for the 18 to 20 volt pack,
hooked in two by five.
--
Jim in NC


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On 9/2/14, 10:46 AM, Leon wrote:

>>
> From what I understand you have to send the parts/tool to a repair
> facility and wait for the return shipment. If time is on your side, no
> problem.


Yep. A friend went through the process after the cells died in a few
months after purchase. He had to find a repair shop in our semi-remote
area (90 mile round trip) and drop off the batteries. After a 3 week
wait he went to pick them up. The 'warranty' is legit, but a pain to
execute.

-BR


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 21:18:34 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>>
>>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>>> and the original registration info.
>>>
>>>
>>I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
>>parts had to be reregistered.
>You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number of
>the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery, they
>would record and re-register the serial of the replacement - but that
>would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of the ridgid
>brand, IIRC)

Ridgid is owned by Emerson Electric. I don't know that they use the
brand for anyone other than HD, though. They certainly sell to
others. It's a rather large company.

On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:49:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 9/1/2014 1:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 9/1/14, 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2014 10:35 AM, James wrote:
>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>> James wrote:
>>>>>>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm
>>>>>>> considering rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt
>>>>>>> Ni-cad battery packs without any difficulty but haven't dealt
>>>>>>> with Li-ion before. JIm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My initial reaction is that doing that sounds potentially
>>>>>> dangerous, but you must understand what you are doing!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not potentially dangerous at all Bill as long as you have the
>>>>> right charger. If the batteries are registered for the lifetime
>>>>> warranty though, it could be a waste of time since they'll be
>>>>> replaced for free under the warranty.
>>>>
>>>> I am registered for lifetime and had some replaced under that but
>>>> they didn't say you had to tell them the serial numbers of the new
>>>> batteries to keep it in effect.I contacted them and they weren't
>>>> very helpful in getting it changed. Jim
>>>
>>> Good to know should I ever uy a Ridgid and go through that process.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure that info is clearly stated in their printed warranty
>> and the original registration info.
>>
>>
>I know it is on the original purchase but was not aware that replaced
>parts had to be reregistered.
You would THINK, with them having the warrantee, the serial number of
the original registered battery, and supplying the new batttery, they
would record and re-register the serial of the replacement - but that
would make too much sense for Home Despot (the owner of the ridgid
brand, IIRC)

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 20:36:10 -0400, "G. Ross" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>James wrote:
>> HI Group, I have three Ridgid li-ion batteries that I'm considering
>> rebuilding. Has anyone done this? I've rebuilt Ni-cad battery packs
>> without any difficulty but haven't dealt with Li-ion before. JIm
>>
>> ---
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>>
>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>>

If you can replace them with the same cells, it should be fine.
Otherwise, as others point out, your charger may not be right. Some
of these cells/batteries have internal protection chips so it matters
which ones are used. I wouldn't do it.

>I took some li-ion batteries to Batteries Plus. The technician said
>he had been to school to learn how to replace them but that the
>company forbade them to do it because of the potential danger.

Likely an overreaction but in this litigious society, it's
understandable.

On 9/2/2014 11:19 AM, Morgans wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote
>
>> From what I have read else where and which is backed up by the Prime
>> cell site is that the batteries circuitry controls whether the battery
>> cells will receive a charge or not depending on its current voltage,
>> temperature. If you put in a mix of cells that are not very close to
>> the same voltage to begin with the charger may not properly charge all
>> of the cells.
>
> At least some packs use the same technology as is found in laptop
> battery packs. Each cell is tested individually during the charging
> process and the packs internal chip decides if it will be getting a
> voltage during the next charging pulse. They equalize the weak cells
> and bring them up to full strength while cutting power to cells that are
> full, or to cells that are too hot during the charging process.

No doubt however one does not know what is going on in every case with
each manufacturer. The circuitry may or may not take care of voltage
differences.


>
> I have a hobby charger that charges RC packs much the same way. It has
> to have the correct hookups to use the full equalizing process. Many
> say that if the user does not push the cells to absolute deadness, and
> discharges the whole pack right after a charge once in a while that
> balancing is not needed. I'm not convinced on that one.

I have heard it is best to not run past 80% discharge and I suspect that
is why most Li-Ion batteries have gas gauges these days. I have heard
that some packs will not allow discharge beyond a certain point.