Air drying lumber

This appears to be a hornets nest but I'll wade in. Kiln dried lumber
has some advantages.It has been held straight while going thriugh
cycles and there fore has less tendeny to warp.(Air Dried can have the
same.) The sap has been set( If you saw yellow pine and air dry you
might have a expierance of the rings coming apart.)The last portion of
kiln drying is a heat cycle that makes the sap solid. The water held in
wood is in two different parts of the board. Air drying does not
release the celler water kiln drying does. The celleur water does not
cause the major warpage but is a dimensional problem.
Now talkiing about older furniture. The masters built there works
understanding what they had and built it for that mediam. Air dryed
lumber has its advaaantages and that is being dried to the area that it
is going to be used. It has a better musical resonates. Its cheaper.
The problem is that any wood that isn't kiln dried is considered air
dried, this is totally wrong. Air dried is when it has been dried
sticked and dried appropiately.

patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Dave jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Yes, "stickers" are basically strips of wood placed between rows of
> > lumber for drying. The ends of freshly cut logs usually are "painted"
> > with a product called anchor seal. It's basically a waxy covering to
> > seal moisture from escaping the endgrain, thereby preventing
> > cracking/splitting. Latex paint can be used for this in a pinch. If
> > the wood is already cut and has been air drying for a while, sealing
> > the ends is not necessary. <snip>
>
> And often not possible. Depending on the wood, and the conditions, it may
> have checked (split) quite a ways in from the end. How much you lose from
> the end is difficult to predict, without more information. The sooner you
> seal, the better.
>
> Woodturners, who often use very green wood, like to get there before the
> chain saws cool down.
>
> The point is to try to even out the moisture migration process, to let the
> stresses balance slowly.
>
> Patriarch

You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable. In the old days
lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right? The reason is that they
didn't have the kilns like we do today. We actually air dry a lot of
our lumber but always run it through the kiln, with the exception of a
portion of carving wood. I'm not saying it's not perfectly fine to use
air dried lumber for some projects but it's definately not for
everything.

"George" <george@least> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> For an alleged sawmill lady you come up with the most ridiculous statements.
> Compression setting of the wood in a kiln is a desired outcome? Really?
> Have you never heard of honeycomb? Further, as demonstrated by data from
> FPL, as graphed in Hoadley, repeated moisture cycles equalize air and kiln
> dried stock in stability.
>
> The reason the old folks used quartered stuff is they had stock big enough,
> and enough of it. If you saw for a living, you probably know the difference
> between sawing for yield and sawing for grade. They knew it moved less
> across the face of the board, and more important, it was easier to select
> pattern and color-match for glue-ups if desired. Then there are those woods
> which show ray figure on the quartered face....
>
> "Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
> > It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
> > also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable. In the old days
> > lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right? The reason is that they
> > didn't have the kilns like we do today. We actually air dry a lot of
> > our lumber but always run it through the kiln, with the exception of a
> > portion of carving wood. I'm not saying it's not perfectly fine to use
> > air dried lumber for some projects but it's definately not for
> > everything.

George, I'd say having over 400,000 bf of various species of dried
and air drying lumber moves me out of the alleged catagory. Of course
I know what the term "honeycomb" is. I didn't say anything about the
process of which lumber is kiln dried. Every species varies a bit as
to the method, so I'm not going into detail. I'm just pointing out
that kiln dried lumber is more stable.Why do you think it's taken down
to 6%?

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:09:04 GMT, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The biggest bonus to the end user of KD that I read was bugs get
>killed when KD.

So what ? Few bugs that eat green timber also eat dry timber. Bugs
that eat dry timber are generally capable of flying in and finding it
for themselves.

Now your local bug species will vary, but I know my waney edged stacks
came into the shed absolutely _full_ of longhorn beetles, and I don't
mind their company one bit. They eat oak sapwood, they rarely burrow
into the heartwood, and when they fly off to lay again they're looking
for standing timber, not my stocks.

I've had more Evil Critters (i.e. powder post beetles) come into the
workshop in old chisel handles (instant firewood) or old moulding
planes (rapid squirting with Juice-Of-Death) than I ever had in green
or air-dried timber.

--
Smert' spamionam

I believe the question was about sticker. Sticker for your purpose should
be 3/4 x 3/4 to 1 x 1, no bigger than necessary. Many people will use the
narrow boards to stick their lumber but this encourage sticker stain, the
wood will not dry properly under the stickers. Also do not use stickers
that are stained if they are the same species as you are drying.

Why do we kiln dry? The big mills started kiln drying to keep their
inventory to a minimal. Can you just imagine a mill sawing 1 million bd ft
per day and holding all that lumber till it is dry. The market then started
demanding kiln dry wood. It does minimize warpage in house building. Now
hardwood used for furniture is not to be compared to structural lumber.
Many building supplies have their kiln dry lumber outside in the rain and a
lot of the time they are just as wet as green lumber.

Another thing that we should remember that most lumber whether air dry or
kiln dry is ruin by leaving it in the sun. I have seen 2 inch oak
completely ruin in 2 days in the sun. Lumber waiting to get into the kiln
should be protected. Somebody mentioned larch in the dry kiln, now there is
one species that really hate sun, best done slowly and out of the sun.

Have fun guys with your woodworking not by insulting one another.

Eric

You google this?
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/tmu/publications.htm

Painting the ends after the board is sawn into 4/4 or 5/4 planks is
unnecessary. The rest of the board will dry fast enough to limit end
checks. I see load after load of hardwood leaving, and none is coated.
Never bothered with the stuff for personal use, either. I think that's why
it's cut at 100" , so 96 will always be useful.

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I googled and read what was available, but have some questions...
>
> 1) Everyone says to sticker, but no one defines it. Is that separating
the
> boards with 1x2s?
> 2) The ends must be painted. With what? If I don't paint, will I ruin
the
> board, or just a few inchs on the end?
> 3) Is there anything worth reading about this on the web?
>
> I have a lead on some really cheap hard maple and a nearly empty barn.
> Might as well put it to use.
>
>

For an alleged sawmill lady you come up with the most ridiculous statements.
Compression setting of the wood in a kiln is a desired outcome? Really?
Have you never heard of honeycomb? Further, as demonstrated by data from
FPL, as graphed in Hoadley, repeated moisture cycles equalize air and kiln
dried stock in stability.

The reason the old folks used quartered stuff is they had stock big enough,
and enough of it. If you saw for a living, you probably know the difference
between sawing for yield and sawing for grade. They knew it moved less
across the face of the board, and more important, it was easier to select
pattern and color-match for glue-ups if desired. Then there are those woods
which show ray figure on the quartered face....

"Jana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
> It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
> also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable. In the old days
> lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right? The reason is that they
> didn't have the kilns like we do today. We actually air dry a lot of
> our lumber but always run it through the kiln, with the exception of a
> portion of carving wood. I'm not saying it's not perfectly fine to use
> air dried lumber for some projects but it's definately not for
> everything.

KD construction lumber? If it sat in a warehouse for a couple weeks it
was already changing. Those pieces on the outside of the pallet were at EMC
within 2-3 weeks, while the inside were less adapted. Of course, once
installed, they all equalized at EMC anyway, so what purpose was served by
the process escapes me.

Though, come to think, Seattle would be about the perfect climate for the
"S-Dry" 20% studs. They'd only pick up a little bit of extra moisture....

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> My old departed contractor pappy always used KD framing lumber since the
> shrinking was avoided and nothing twisted or warped after the framing was
> done. He was always on the boyz to keep the stacks covered 'til used and
> avoided framing if possible until things could be covered before getting
> rained on - in western Washington State (similar to merry old England).
> He also insisted nothing be more tha 1/8" out of square, plumb and level
> over the full dimensions of the project and within any major feature - not
> easy to do!
>
> -Doug

OK, your straw man is "green."

My point is that KD means very little once it leaves the kiln.


"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:31:26 -0500, George wrote:
>
> > KD construction lumber? If it sat in a warehouse for a couple weeks
it
> > was already changing. Those pieces on the outside of the pallet were at
> > EMC within 2-3 weeks, while the inside were less adapted. Of course,
once
> > installed, they all equalized at EMC anyway, so what purpose was served
by
> > the process escapes me.
>
> After framing many buildings with KD vs green, the results reveal the
> purpose of KD - straight walls that remain straight, no cracks in finish
> walls after drying, etc. IOW, quality construction that lasts.
>
> -Doug
>

Nope, As I mentioned in the original post, 20% as is the standard in US is a
good all-purpose MC for wood used in construction. In Seattle, might be a
touch low. Here, a touch high.

Makes no difference with rain. Casual water is gone in a day, unless you
stand the board in it.

But hey, it was a minor point, though instructive, that the MC of wood
leaving the kiln is meaningless a week later - period.

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:13:54 -0500, George wrote:
>
> > OK, your straw man is "green."
> >
> > My point is that KD means very little once it leaves the kiln.
>
> Probably not if you float it down the river to the construction site, but
> KD is normally wrapped for some protection from the weather. Are you
> suggesting there is no difference in construction quality using KD and non
> KD lumber both having been kept in a reasonable environment?
>
> -Doug

Yes, "stickers" are basically strips of wood placed between rows of lumber
for drying. The ends of freshly cut logs usually are "painted" with a
product called anchor seal. It's basically a waxy covering to seal moisture
from escaping the endgrain, thereby preventing cracking/splitting. Latex
paint can be used for this in a pinch. If the wood is already cut and has
been air drying for a while, sealing the ends is not necessary. Here is a
site I have a link to:
http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/forestry/g60.htm
Although this site recommended using roofing cement as a sealer, I'd advise
against it as it would be way more messy than Anchor seal. --dave



"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I googled and read what was available, but have some questions...
>
> 1) Everyone says to sticker, but no one defines it. Is that separating
> the boards with 1x2s?
> 2) The ends must be painted. With what? If I don't paint, will I ruin
> the board, or just a few inchs on the end?
> 3) Is there anything worth reading about this on the web?
>
> I have a lead on some really cheap hard maple and a nearly empty barn.
> Might as well put it to use.
>

"Dave jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Yes, "stickers" are basically strips of wood placed between rows of
> lumber for drying. The ends of freshly cut logs usually are "painted"
> with a product called anchor seal. It's basically a waxy covering to
> seal moisture from escaping the endgrain, thereby preventing
> cracking/splitting. Latex paint can be used for this in a pinch. If
> the wood is already cut and has been air drying for a while, sealing
> the ends is not necessary. <snip>

And often not possible. Depending on the wood, and the conditions, it may
have checked (split) quite a ways in from the end. How much you lose from
the end is difficult to predict, without more information. The sooner you
seal, the better.

Woodturners, who often use very green wood, like to get there before the
chain saws cool down.

The point is to try to even out the moisture migration process, to let the
stresses balance slowly.

Patriarch

"Jana" wrote in message

> I'm just pointing out that kiln dried lumber is more stable.

References please.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On 21 Nov 2004 08:59:31 -0800, [email protected] (Jana) wrote:

> I'm just pointing out
>that kiln dried lumber is more stable.Why do you think it's taken down
>to 6%?

You really don't have a clue, do you ? You not only tell your
customers this "Only bone-dri (tm) kilned wood is stable" rubbish, you
actually believe it yourself.


--
Smert' spamionam

The biggest bonus to the end user of KD that I read was bugs get
killed when KD. Of course there is plenty of old furniture around that
was not KD and has survived hundreds of years. May the value of KD is
in home building if you use a species of wood that has lots of bugs
waiting to bore out.

Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 21 Nov 2004 08:59:31 -0800, [email protected] (Jana) wrote:
>
>> I'm just pointing out
>>that kiln dried lumber is more stable.Why do you think it's taken down
>>to 6%?
>
>You really don't have a clue, do you ? You not only tell your
>customers this "Only bone-dri (tm) kilned wood is stable" rubbish, you
>actually believe it yourself.

On 19 Nov 2004 14:42:04 -0800, [email protected] (Jana) wrote:

> You guys are kind of missing the point of why we kiln dry lumber.
>It's not only to dry the wood in a hurry compared to air drying. It
>also "sets" the cells of the lumber making it stable.

Bollocks. It partially polymerises some resin on softwood, making it
vaguely stable enough to fool most of the people. It's still no
substitute for putting it through a dozen fully-equilibriated wet/dry
cycles as a stabilisation process. Now unless you have copious free
energy and a couple of months, the best way to do this is still to
air-dry, then continue seasoning for a few years.

> In the old days lumber was primarily quarter sawn , right?

No.


--
Smert' spamionam

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:10:29 +0000, Andy Dingley wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:09:04 GMT, Jim Behning
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The biggest bonus to the end user of KD that I read was bugs get killed
>>when KD.
>
> So what ? Few bugs that eat green timber also eat dry timber. Bugs that
> eat dry timber are generally capable of flying in and finding it for
> themselves.
[snip]

My old departed contractor pappy always used KD framing lumber since the
shrinking was avoided and nothing twisted or warped after the framing was
done. He was always on the boyz to keep the stacks covered 'til used and
avoided framing if possible until things could be covered before getting
rained on - in western Washington State (similar to merry old England).
He also insisted nothing be more tha 1/8" out of square, plumb and level
over the full dimensions of the project and within any major feature - not
easy to do!

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:31:26 -0500, George wrote:

> KD construction lumber? If it sat in a warehouse for a couple weeks it
> was already changing. Those pieces on the outside of the pallet were at
> EMC within 2-3 weeks, while the inside were less adapted. Of course, once
> installed, they all equalized at EMC anyway, so what purpose was served by
> the process escapes me.

After framing many buildings with KD vs green, the results reveal the
purpose of KD - straight walls that remain straight, no cracks in finish
walls after drying, etc. IOW, quality construction that lasts.

-Doug

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:13:54 -0500, George wrote:

> OK, your straw man is "green."
>
> My point is that KD means very little once it leaves the kiln.

Probably not if you float it down the river to the construction site, but
KD is normally wrapped for some protection from the weather. Are you
suggesting there is no difference in construction quality using KD and non
KD lumber both having been kept in a reasonable environment?

-Doug