If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design, an
abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a beginner
can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
Note: Mr. Hack used wedged tenons (2!) at each joint between a trestle shoe
and a trestle post. Me, it's all I can do to keep up with his terminology!
The tenons are not visible from the viewpoint provided (nor are the trestle
tops, nor the breadboard ends...). Final dimensions, in particular the
height, are also not decided (sounds like I haven't done a darn thing!).
One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
(traditional) shape:
_________________________
// \\
under each trestle shoe (basically a fourbyfour). Is using a mortise
attachment on a delta drill press a good way to perform this? -- I don't
have either one yet but it appears that I would get a lot of mileage out of
it on this project! I've been looking at the Delta (floor) DP. A router
table is not available. BTW, due credit to Lew for getting me going on this
project, and to Swingman and Leon for their help with SketchUp, or to
everyone who taught me so much about electricity, and everyone else who puts
up with my posts ! Man--I forgot to wire this bench!!! : ) Having
fun...
Bill
On Apr 20, 11:41=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "ed_h" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:cb89dfa3-63bc-41d0-b3a5-9cb6a6bd716d@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Cross pieces at the top of the legs are saddle
> joints. =A0The trestles are set into recesses under the top and fastened
> with large screws in slots.
>
> If I understand, then you already described what you mean by "saddle join=
ts"
> above.
>
> It appears that Mr. Hack affixed a board on one of both sides of each
> trestle top
> and used screws, of course, to affix the top. =A0It sounds like your
> "recesses" are
> more like shallow mortises. =A0Both designs sound solid (and better than =
I
> would have designed
> on my own). =A0 Hopefully, I'll be able to build a bench that can pass th=
e
> "nickel test". ; )
> I intend to start "production" in less than 2 weeks.
>
> During the last few years I've been =A0studying woodworking, but this wil=
l be
> my first real
> woodworking project since HS, when I last had access to some "shop space"=
.
> I should probably practice my M&T joinery on some twobyfours, huh?
>
> Bill
Bill--
In this context, this is what i meant by a saddle joint:
http://bullfire.net/Bench/saddle.JPG
On 4/18/2010 2:15 AM, Bill wrote:
> If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design, an
> abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a beginner
> can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
Nicely done, Bill ... amazing how doing a model or shop drawing, with
any software, or paper and pencil, really gets you focused on how to
accomplish all the little details that aren't obvious at first glance.
With regard to the shape of the 4 x 4 feet, and with use of power tools,
this is definitely a job for a band saw and router, with jig/template.
Here's how I do the feet for trestle tables/benches:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Trestle%20Table3.jpg
It will be hard, if not impossible, to find a router bit/end mill with
the depth-of-cut to do the 4 x 4 foot in one pass, but if you do your
template carefully (with line-up marks on both pieces), you can use the
same jig on each side, rough cutting the shape first on the band saw.
With regard to the joinery, a router for your mortises, and "loose
tenon" joinery, if done properly, will work just fine.
Some folks find drill press mortise attachments work just fine. I've
found early on that they can be problematic in harder woods, YMMV. If
you're going to do much mortise and tenon joinery, either learn to cut
them by hand, or get a dedicated hollow chisel mortiser ... one can be
had for under $300.
Spend some money on a band saw first if you don't already own one; and,
of course, a router, and arsenal of bits, is simply indispensable for
this kind of work.
A plunge router, with a jig/template for the specific job, can do the
work of many tools.
AAMOF, you may find that you get a bigger kick out of devising and
building a jig to do something that would be impossible without, than
doing the actual project. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 03:15:15 -0400, the infamous "Bill"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design, an
>abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a beginner
>can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
Not bad! Suggestion: put a chrome cover on the top lip of that skirt
board. Your foot will natually migrate up there and rest at times when
you're at the bench.
>Note: Mr. Hack used wedged tenons (2!) at each joint between a trestle shoe
>and a trestle post. Me, it's all I can do to keep up with his terminology!
Then find a copy of Aldren Watson's book _Hand Tools: Their Ways and
Workings_ or _Glossary of Woodworking Terms_ by A.W. Lewis. Iffen
you're feeling like a -real- newbie that day, get _The Complete
Idiot's Guide to Woodworking_ by Reed Karen.
>The tenons are not visible from the viewpoint provided (nor are the trestle
>tops, nor the breadboard ends...). Final dimensions, in particular the
>height, are also not decided (sounds like I haven't done a darn thing!).
I used glued and pegged tenons in mine.
>One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
>(traditional) shape:
Roughsaw to the outline, file to suit, as it has always been done.
Either bowsaur (my specialty ;) or hand saur.
Perfect excuse to buy a pair of Nicholsons, a #48 and a #49
cabinetmaker's rasps/files.
---
A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
because the experience of reading is not passive.
--Erica Jong
On 4/21/2010 1:02 PM, Bill wrote:
> After taking such care to get to this point, I might be surprised if one
> should
> merely screw the top to the top trestles. Of course there is about 20 linear
> inches on each top trestle available for screws!
What you do depends upon whether you need to take seasonal expansion of
the top into account.
Just another of many options that you have:
Most of the time I use figure eight fasteners for attaching any tops to
aprons, or trestle bases, because the top can be easily removed, and
they do take seasonal expansion into account.
Might be different with your workbench, depending upon how much strength
you feel you need if you are going to move it around.
I generally advise against using the tops of tables/furniture as a
carrying handles if they're fastened with figure eight fasteners, but
the more you use, the stronger it would be (say eight, two on each side
of each trestle.
Although not a workbench, that's what I did with this trestle table, and
that top weights in at at well over 100lbs:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Trestle%20Table12.jpg
That said, my shop workbench top (not a traditional design but gets the
same type use) is not even fastened to the under carriage except with
key blocks, and it has never moved unless it was taken off on purpose
for transport.
If you feel something like the figure eight fasteners will do the job
for you, you do have to take care that they are aligned so that seasonal
movement is indeed taken into account.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" wrote:
> Here's how I do the feet for trestle tables/benches:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Trestle%20Table3.jpg
-----------------------------------
Major difference to workbench sketch.
Swing has built a 4 point footing, not a pair of continuous straight
line footings.
4 point is stable, doubt pair of lined ever will be.
Lew
"Swingman" wrote:
> Irrelevant to the _method_ of cutting his "shoe" profile, which was
> the point of my post, and including a picture as an idea of how to
> accomplish executing that profile with a router and jig.
-----------------------------------------
A method I posted a couple of weeks ago when Bill's sketch first got
posted.
Makes nice shoe shape, just not stable.
Lew
"Bill" wrote:
> Oh. So, Lew, you are of the opinion that there is still too much
> lateral support there on the feet.
> How large do the feet (on a 4by4 need to be so that there is no
> concern about them breaking, 2 inches?
------------------------------------------------
You could make each "pad" square (3-1/2 x 3-1/2) and solve the problem
while looking good in the shower.
--------------------------------------------
> I saved your post about the method, but lacking a router table, I
> temporarily set it aside.
> Maybe clamping (to a door laying accross two cabinets) will be
> sufficient?
--------------------------------------------------
Use a 3' x 3' x 3/4" piece of MDF with a hole in the middle laid
across those cabinets or some saw horses and you have a router table.
Lew
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> Swingman has mentioned again how SketchUp facilitates thinking about
> design. He is More Than right! Of course, SketchUp has a way of
> sucking a few hours out of you in exchange too. But if quality is a
> priority, it seems like time well-spent.
>
> Bill
> <Custom Traditional Workbenches, Ltd., since 2011> : )
>
Don't be afraid to shut off Sketchup and go out and make sawdust. Not
every detail has to be shown, it just all has to be planned. ;-)
That's what I did on my latest project... and it's turned out acceptable
thus far.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
On 2010-04-18 17:31:48 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> said:
> I bought a Delta 14" BS in January--still in the box (it's cold in
> Indiana in January).
Oh, it's not too bad, once you lose the feeling in your fingers... I
couldn't wait to assemble my bandsaw.
Whereabouts in Indiana, neighbor?
"Bill" wrote:
> I'm going to try cutting them by hand first (following what I can do
> drilling with a DP).
> Thanks for the heads up... I did some reading about mortisers
> tonight.
> "My name is Bill and I think I have a machine problem...." : )
--------------------------------------
Just another good reason to have a plunge router.
Lew
On 2010-04-18 23:13:19 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> said:
> South of Indianapolis, not too far outside the I-465-loop. How about yourself?
North of Indianapolis, not too far outside the I-465 loop. Wanna come
up and help unload a SawStop? <grin>
On 2010-04-20 00:59:31 -0400, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> said:
> That's puts you within spittin distance of the "Pyramids".
WIth a good headwind, true.
On 4/21/2010 10:18 AM, Bill wrote:
> "ed_h"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Bill--
>
> In this context, this is what i meant by a saddle joint:
>
> http://bullfire.net/Bench/saddle.JPG
>
> Thank you, the picture is worth 1000 words. Mr. Hack used a double M&T
> joint. Your saddle joint looks easier to "fine tune" should the trestle
> tops need "leveling", should the wood warp for instance ; ) Thank you for
> the idea.
An excellent joint, but one caveat you need to consider: this is one
joint that you will want to "pin", as it does not resist racking forces
as well as a mortise and tenon joint.
After glueup, simply drill a couple of holes through the joint and drive
appropriately sized wooden dowels (with glue on them) through the joint.
Depending upon the size, two will usually do.
With a "corner bridle joint", this will give you much more resistance to
racking forces.
That said, don't let this dissuade you from using the joint, as it is
indeed excellent for your application.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:02:37 -0700 (PDT), the infamous ed_h
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Bill--
>
>I like your design. Here's a bench with a very similar design I made
>a couple of years ago:
>
>http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html
Bravo, Ed.
--
"I think you very well may see a revolution in this country and
it will not be a revolution to overthrow the government," he said.
"It would be a revolution to restore government to its constitutional
basis." --Rob Weaver on VoA, 4/19/10
On Apr 21, 1:02=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman wrote:
>
> ,
>
> >> After glueup, simply drill a couple of holes through the joint and dri=
ve
> >> appropriately sized wooden dowels (with glue on them) through the join=
t.
> >> Depending upon the size, two will usually do.
>
> >> With a "corner bridle joint", this will give you much more resistance =
to
> >> racking forces.
>
> >> That said, don't let this dissuade you from using the joint, as it is
> >> indeed excellent for your application.
>
> After taking such care to get to this point, I might be surprised if one
> should
> merely screw the top to the top trestles. Of course there is about 20 lin=
ear
> inches on each top trestle available for screws!
>
> Some options which allow for a removable top seem to be:
>
> 1) Screw the top trestles to the top
> 2) Screw the top trestles to the top and also "block them in" (add suppor=
t
> around the top trestles by also screwing in wooden blocks around them)
> 3) Bolt the top trestles to the top (w/inset bolt)
> 4) Bolt the top trestles to the top (w/inset bolt) and bolt the support
> blocks! (no fooling around)
>
> (2) is definitely an improvement over (1), right? =A0 (4) looks like a
> "maintenance upgrade", if ever required.
>
> Bill
I routed shallow pockets in the bottom of the table top to receive the
tops of the trestles. The horizontal pieces at the top of the
trestles had short slots milled in them for biggish screws to pass
through and into the top. The slots allow for expansion and
contraction of the top.
On 4/18/2010 5:06 PM, Bill wrote:
> "Swingman"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Spend some money on a band saw first if you don't already own one; and, of
>> course, a router, and arsenal of bits, is simply indispensable for this
>> kind of work.
>
> Let's see: straight bits, and ones that can be used for plunging, and
> roundover bits (for other projects).
> As I don't have a router nor any rounter bits at all, I am curious what
> other bits come to your mind as "simply indispensable for this kind of
> work".
For the template in that picture, showing one method of routing a curved
pattern in the feet, you will need router bits you can use with
templates/patterns.
With router bits, only buy one when you need it for a particular job and
you will soon have an arsenal of bits that are useful for what you do,
instead of buying in "sets" and ending up with a drawer full of router
bits you never use.
Here's an example of a flush trim patter bits:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5411
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=16976
Try to get a couple of the longest you can find. You'll notice that one
has the bearing close to the shank, one close to the end. Both will do
the same job, but one will be handier for certain applications than the
other.
If you do any work where you need to repeat curves and profiles in
projects, get both, and buy the best you can afford. Cheap router bits
will ruin a lot of expensive wood.
Amana is a good brand also, with some of the ones I have still going
strong after more than a decade of use:
http://www.amanatool.com/routerbits.html
IMO, the 1/2" shank bits work the best with flush trim/pattern bits,
with less chatter and a smoother cut.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Apr 20, 12:02=A0pm, ed_h <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill--
>
> I like your design. =A0Here's a bench with a very similar design I made
> a couple of years ago:
>
> http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html
Sorry, Bill, I didn't realize I already sent you this link on a
previous thread. Please ignore.
Ed
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>That said, my shop workbench top (not a traditional design but gets the
>same type use) is not even fastened to the under carriage except with
>key blocks, and it has never moved unless it was taken off on purpose
>for transport.
I second Swingman's suggestion here. I used the approach (from the
Klausz bench) of one large diameter short peg on the top of each
trestle end, fit into shallow holes in the bottom of the top. The top
is different from your average table top in that it has much greater
mass, and is not going to move unless you very intentionally move it.
The peg is enough to resist the lateral forces from planing, etc.,
which would otherwise make the top move.
Whatever you do, though, only one fixed-point attachment at each
trestle (screw or peg). If you feel the need for a second attachment
on each end (such as for moving by lifting from the top), make sure to
allow for lateral movement at the second attachment point.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
On 4/18/2010 11:36 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Here's how I do the feet for trestle tables/benches:
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Trestle%20Table3.jpg
>
> -----------------------------------
> Major difference to workbench sketch.
>
> Swing has built a 4 point footing, not a pair of continuous straight
> line footings.
>
> 4 point is stable, doubt pair of lined ever will be.
Irrelevant to the _method_ of cutting his "shoe" profile, which was the
point of my post, and including a picture as an idea of how to
accomplish executing that profile with a router and jig.
He will get repeatable results using the method in the photograph that
he won't get any other way.
"Stability" is left to the designer.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Apr 20, 1:56=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> ed_h wrote:
> > On Apr 20, 12:02 pm, ed_h <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Bill--
>
> >> I like your design. =A0Here's a bench with a very similar design I mad=
e
> >> a couple of years ago:
>
> >>http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html
>
> > Sorry, Bill, I didn't realize I already sent you this link on a
> > previous thread. =A0Please ignore.
>
> > Ed
>
> Ed, =A0Thank you for resending! =A0Great looking bench! Is it as solid as
> it looks (any racking?)? =A0What was the nature of the joinery that you
> used for the vertical trestles? =A0Sharp side vise!!
>
> Best
> Bill
The bench is very solid and weighs a ton (not really). I have to drag
it around occasionally, and no sign of racking.
Joinery on the legs to feet are double mortice and tenon. Stretchers
are mortice & tenon. Cross pieces at the top of the legs are saddle
joints. The trestles are set into recesses under the top and fastened
with large screws in slots. Breadboard ends are traditional stopped
tongue & groove (I guess you couls also call it a wide, short mortice
& tenon).
>Bill--
>
>I like your design. Here's a bench with a very similar design I made
>a couple of years ago:
>
>http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html
>
>ed_h
Ed ... That is one really sweet workbench. I am definitely envious.
Bill ... I can't wait to see how yours turns out!
I am definitely envious of these incredible workbenches folks in here
have made. Really even too pretty to use. I wish I had enough room for
one. However I am hoping to come up with a very small version for my
woodcarving but I doubt I can make it look as good as these.
`Casper
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design,
> an abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a
> beginner can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
>
> Note: Mr. Hack used wedged tenons (2!) at each joint between a trestle
> shoe and a trestle post. Me, it's all I can do to keep up with his
> terminology! The tenons are not visible from the viewpoint provided (nor
> are the trestle tops, nor the breadboard ends...). Final dimensions, in
> particular the height, are also not decided (sounds like I haven't done a
> darn thing!).
>
> One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
> (traditional) shape:
>
> _________________________
> // \\
>
> under each trestle shoe (basically a fourbyfour). Is using a mortise
> attachment on a delta drill press a good way to perform this? -- I don't
> have either one yet but it appears that I would get a lot of mileage out
> of it on this project!
How about taking out the corners with a hole saw or forstner bit and
finishing with a bandsaw?
Do the whole thing with a bandsaw?
Drill one hole and finish the rest with a hand held frame saw?
On 4/18/2010 2:15 AM, Bill wrote:
> If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design, an
> abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a beginner
> can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Note: Mr. Hack used wedged tenons (2!) at each joint between a trestle shoe
> and a trestle post. Me, it's all I can do to keep up with his terminology!
> The tenons are not visible from the viewpoint provided (nor are the trestle
> tops, nor the breadboard ends...). Final dimensions, in particular the
> height, are also not decided (sounds like I haven't done a darn thing!).
It's a good-looking bench, and a well-done drawing!
I looked at your shop drawing, and suggest that you consider adding an
under-bench shelf so you can set a tool aside without having it in your
way on top of the bench or behind you on the saw top.
Some time back I took a shot (with SketchUp) to design a 2x4 and 2x6
bench (not anywhere near as elegant as yours) and incorporated a pair of
shelves so I could keep tools and parts handy for the kinds of projects
I like to do, and get a little more out of the area taken up by the bench:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/ (bottom of page)
>
> One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
> (traditional) shape:
It looks like a job for your bandsaw. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Here's how I do the feet for trestle tables/benches:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Trestle%20Table3.jpg
>
Thank you--picture is worth 1000 words! Can I do that safely without a
router table? Previous home owner left me a fairly sturdy hollow door
resting accross two kitchen cabinets. I could clamp it to that. I also
have a "Workmate" someone discarded, but that's probably not nearly heavy
enough.
The DeWalt router 2.25 HP router "kit" (DW618PK) has been on my wish list
for a while. Amazon raised their price by about 10% in January (grrrr).
I bought a Delta 14" BS in January--still in the box (it's cold in Indiana
in January). I picked up a 1/2" blade to help rip the SYP for the
workbench top. I collected 15 Jorgensen 3/4" pipe clamps and 15 pieces of
4' black pipe nibs and 15 couplets to protect the threads on the end and my
fingers (Lew said the couplets were SOP, or words to that effect--and in
view of how sharp some of the threads are, I'm happy to cover them). With
15 4' pipe clamps, a guy can dream! ; )
I was thinking screwing a couple of them together to help clamp a board
using the end of my garage, a brick wall, to provide the basis for a
concrete repair:
| < ---garage door opening--->| ||
<<------------- brick wall.
| {============| || }
<<--------- pipe clamp
{____________________________________}
The idea is to fill in the area against the board (===============) with
concrete (quikrete).
My biggest concern was that I could break the brick on the brick wall, but I
hope that if I distribute the tension accross a few bricks I may be ok.
Engineers: Do (housing)bricks have the sort of strength that will permit
this sort of force/tension (or is this a stupid idea)???
DM and others mentioned space under the bench. Yes, I too see that precious
space under the bench is wasted. For space, Mr. Hack only adds two 4.5" x
19" top draws and a till.
At present, there is 9" of height to push boxes of stuff underneath--and
"you just know" some squatter would mosey by and push something under
there... I'll keep working on it!
Swingman has mentioned again how SketchUp facilitates thinking about design.
He is More Than right! Of course, SketchUp has a way of sucking a few hours
out of you in exchange too. But if quality is a priority, it seems like
time well-spent.
Bill
<Custom Traditional Workbenches, Ltd., since 2011> : )
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Spend some money on a band saw first if you don't already own one; and, of
> course, a router, and arsenal of bits, is simply indispensable for this
> kind of work.
Let's see: straight bits, and ones that can be used for plunging, and
roundover bits (for other projects).
As I don't have a router nor any rounter bits at all, I am curious what
other bits come to your mind as "simply indispensable for this kind of
work".
>
> A plunge router, with a jig/template for the specific job, can do the work
> of many tools.
>
> AAMOF, you may find that you get a bigger kick out of devising and
> building a jig to do something that would be impossible without, than
> doing the actual project. :)
Another "template/jig" job I was thinking of was to make some custom
handles for my antique Stanley planes--once I get caught up, of course...
Of course, why stop at just the handle... ; ) It's been a long time since
I mentioned that my original goal was to build an 1840's milstrel-style
banjo... but look where it got me.
http://www.minstrelbanjo.com/BANJOindex.html
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>Note: Mr. Hack used wedged tenons (2!) at each joint between a trestle
>>shoe
>>and a trestle post. Me, it's all I can do to keep up with his
>>terminology!
>
> Then find a copy of Aldren Watson's book _Hand Tools: Their Ways and
> Workings
-Read that one, it was pretty good.
>
>>The tenons are not visible from the viewpoint provided (nor are the
>>trestle
>>tops, nor the breadboard ends...). Final dimensions, in particular the
>>height, are also not decided (sounds like I haven't done a darn thing!).
>
> I used glued and pegged tenons in mine.
I like that idea. In his bench, Garrett Hack uses those on his
"intermediate rails" (on the short sides).
He uses a steel rod in a groove on each of the long sides.
>
>
>>One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
>>(traditional) shape:
>
> Roughsaw to the outline, file to suit, as it has always been done.
> Either bowsaur (my specialty ;) or hand saur.
>
> Perfect excuse to buy a pair of Nicholsons, a #48 and a #49
> cabinetmaker's rasps/files.
I already made that plunge (towards my plan of carving a banjo neck).
I think if I shaped the feet by hand, that they would end up looking hand
cut...
I think I may try Swingman's template/jig suggestion for the feet. Thank
you for your help!
Bill
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was thinking screwing a couple of them together to help clamp a board
> using the end of my garage, a brick wall, to provide the basis for a
> concrete repair:
>
>
> | < ---garage door opening--->| ||
> <------------- brick wall.
> | {============|
> || } <--------- pipe clamp
> {____________________________________}
>
Just fixing the diagram above. ========= is the wooden (support) board.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Irrelevant to the _method_ of cutting his "shoe" profile, which was the
>> point of my post, and including a picture as an idea of how to accomplish
>> executing that profile with a router and jig.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> A method I posted a couple of weeks ago when Bill's sketch first got
> posted.
>
> Makes nice shoe shape, just not stable.
>
> Lew
>
Oh. So, Lew, you are of the opinion that there is still too much lateral
support there on the feet.
How large do the feet (on a 4by4 need to be so that there is no concern
about them breaking, 2 inches?
I saved your post about the method, but lacking a router table, I
temporarily set it aside.
Maybe clamping (to a door laying accross two cabinets) will be sufficient?
Bill
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I was thinking screwing a couple of them together to help clamp a board
>> using the end of my garage, a brick wall, to provide the basis for a
>> concrete repair:
>>
>>
>> | < ---garage door opening--->| || <-- brick
>> wall.
>> | {============| || } <- pipe
>> clamp
>> {_____________________________}
>>
>
> Just fixing the diagram above. ========= is the wooden (support) board.
>
Again, the diagram is fighting me.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" wrote:
>
> > I'm not really sure how
> >> to saw a semicircular-arc on the front and rear of the feet:
Of course, I developed my own jig to help accomplish the 4 inch radius arcs
(since I lacked a router table) . Now I'm fretting over the ones underneath.
Bill
> ----------------------------------------
> 1) Make a template from 1/4 hard board.
> 2) Trace template outline onto stock.
> 3) Bandsaw about 1/8" proud of the outline on both ends of stock.
> 4) Attach template to cut stock with double backed tape.
> 5) Using a top bearing 1/2" x 2" router bit, clean up top
> 1-1/2"-2" of bandsaw cut.
> (Be careful of "climb routing to minimize tearout).
> 6) Flip stock over and using a 1/2" x 2", flush trim bit, clean the
> remaining 1-1/2"-2" of bandsaw cut.
> 7) Remove template and move to next piece.
> 8) If required, square up corners with good bench chisel.
> Caution: Don't do without router table.
> Lew
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> Oh. So, Lew, you are of the opinion that there is still too much lateral
>> support there on the feet.
>> How large do the feet (on a 4by4 need to be so that there is no concern
>> about them breaking, 2 inches?
> ------------------------------------------------
> You could make each "pad" square (3-1/2 x 3-1/2).
Yep, that sounds right!
Bill
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Use a 3' x 3' x 3/4" piece of MDF with a hole in the middle laid across
> those cabinets or some saw horses and you have a router table.
The last time I played with chemically-latent plywood I made myself pretty
darn sick.
Ditto on melamine. Haven't tried "Formaldehyde-free" plywood yet--but my
local Home
Depot stocks it...
Thank you,
Bill
"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>
>>
>> Swingman has mentioned again how SketchUp facilitates thinking about
>> design. He is More Than right! Of course, SketchUp has a way of
>> sucking a few hours out of you in exchange too. But if quality is a
>> priority, it seems like time well-spent.
>>
>> Bill
>> <Custom Traditional Workbenches, Ltd., since 2011> : )
>>
>
> Don't be afraid to shut off Sketchup and go out and make sawdust. Not
> every detail has to be shown, it just all has to be planned. ;-)
>
School will be out in 2 weeks and I'll be cutting loose in several
directions!
In the meantime, I'm carrying a 60% higher than typical workload--but just
for 2 more weeks!
If it werent' for the Wreck and everything, a "workbench" would have been a
weekend project!
I watched my dad assemble his. He let me pound lots of nails in the 1/4"
plywood top (good memory--
my first meaningful use of a hammer). They havent' fallen out yet.
Bill
> That's what I did on my latest project... and it's turned out acceptable
> thus far.
>
> Puckdropper
> --
> Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2010-04-18 17:31:48 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> said:
>
>> I bought a Delta 14" BS in January--still in the box (it's cold in
>> Indiana in January).
>
> Oh, it's not too bad, once you lose the feeling in your fingers... I
> couldn't wait to assemble my bandsaw.
>
> Whereabouts in Indiana, neighbor?
South of Indianapolis, not too far outside the I-465-loop. How about
yourself?
Bill
"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2010-04-18 17:31:48 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> said:
>
>> I bought a Delta 14" BS in January--still in the box (it's cold in
>> Indiana in January).
>
> Oh, it's not too bad, once you lose the feeling in your fingers... I
> couldn't wait to assemble my bandsaw.
The wood doesn't even like it when it's that cold, and there's that much
snow!
Fortunately, we seem to be entering grass growing season again--40 degrees
at night though.
Bill
"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don't be afraid to shut off Sketchup and go out and make sawdust. Not
> every detail has to be shown, it just all has to be planned. ;-)
>
There was a time when that was my SOP! I made a "box hockey" game like that
in my youth that was pretty popular among
my friends. It had two hinges and folded up like a suitcase--it opened to 6
or 7 feet long and had a hole on each end ("goal") and a tunnel in the
middle.. I'm sure I used nothing but a coping saw--and surely no more
sandpaper than absolutely necessary. Painted it and the two plywood paddles
black. The paddle that looked worse (remember that coping saw) was the good
shooter...who would have known. I forget what we used for a puck. I made
fancier stuff, a lamp, cutting board, bird feeder, etc. in HS, but the
hockey game was surely my most enjoyed project. My mom is still using the
cutting board daily after 30 years. but I've inquired enough to realize it
doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to her that it was handmade--it
just works well. Yep, the hockey game was "sport"!
Bill
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Some folks find drill press mortise attachments work just fine. I've found
> early on that they can be problematic in harder woods, YMMV. If you're
> going to do much mortise and tenon joinery, either learn to cut them by
> hand, or get a dedicated hollow chisel mortiser ... one can be had for
> under $300.
I'm going to try cutting them by hand first (following what I can do
drilling with a DP).
Thanks for the heads up... I did some reading about mortisers tonight.
"My name is Bill and I think I have a machine problem...." : )
Bill
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design, an
>abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a beginner
>can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
Nice looking. One design consideration -- make sure you have enough
room under the stretchers to be able to easily sweep out. You will
probably end up with a shelf resting on those stretchers, and if the
bottom is too low, it will be a PITA to clean under. DAMHIKT! Yours
look to be high enough, but at least think about that and maybe mock
something up before finalizing the design.
>One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
>(traditional) shape:
>
> _________________________
>// \\
>
>under each trestle shoe (basically a fourbyfour).
Wasting away wood to create this seems a shame. Why not just laminate
a pad of the same wood as the trestle foot at all four ends, possibly
routing a cove at the interior end before glue-up if you want that
look.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> I'm going to try cutting them by hand first (following what I can do
>> drilling with a DP).
>> Thanks for the heads up... I did some reading about mortisers
>> tonight.
>> "My name is Bill and I think I have a machine problem...." : )
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> Just another good reason to have a plunge router.
>
> Lew
Hmmm...Thinking along those lines makes a plunge router seem
even more essential, at least for most of my current needs, than a drill
press.
Thank you,
Bill
alexy wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> If you are possibly curious in the present state of my workbench design, an
>> abridged version of Garrett Hack's work, or would care see what a beginner
>> can do with SketchUp, my pdf file is at the following web site:
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Nice looking. One design consideration -- make sure you have enough
> room under the stretchers to be able to easily sweep out. You will
> probably end up with a shelf resting on those stretchers, and if the
> bottom is too low, it will be a PITA to clean under. DAMHIKT! Yours
> look to be high enough, but at least think about that and maybe mock
> something up before finalizing the design.
>
>> One lingering question I have been thinking about is how to cut the
>> (traditional) shape:
>>
>> _________________________
>> // \\
>>
>> under each trestle shoe (basically a fourbyfour).
>
> Wasting away wood to create this seems a shame. Why not just laminate
> a pad of the same wood as the trestle foot at all four ends, possibly
> routing a cove at the interior end before glue-up if you want that
> look.
Alexy,
I think you are right about the shelf, and you certainly have an fine
out-of-the-box idea on an approach to get the sort of result I was after
on the feet!
Thank you,
Bill
Swingman wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 5:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>> "Swingman"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Spend some money on a band saw first if you don't already own one;
>>> and, of
>>> course, a router, and arsenal of bits, is simply indispensable for this
>>> kind of work.
>>
>> Let's see: straight bits, and ones that can be used for plunging, and
>> roundover bits (for other projects).
>> As I don't have a router nor any rounter bits at all, I am curious what
>> other bits come to your mind as "simply indispensable for this kind of
>> work".
>
> For the template in that picture, showing one method of routing a curved
> pattern in the feet, you will need router bits you can use with
> templates/patterns.
>
> With router bits, only buy one when you need it for a particular job and
> you will soon have an arsenal of bits that are useful for what you do,
> instead of buying in "sets" and ending up with a drawer full of router
> bits you never use.
Yes, I already decided to go that route (buying what I need, and
avoiding cheap bits). I followed your links below and I was surprised
to see a double bearing bit (don't think I've seen one before). I'm
sure I could learn a thing or three more just browsing Amana's site.
I read most of Bill Hylton's book ("Woodworking with the Router")a few
years ago. Thank you for your suggestions!
Bill
>
> Here's an example of a flush trim patter bits:
>
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5411
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=16976
>
> Try to get a couple of the longest you can find. You'll notice that one
> has the bearing close to the shank, one close to the end. Both will do
> the same job, but one will be handier for certain applications than the
> other.
>
> If you do any work where you need to repeat curves and profiles in
> projects, get both, and buy the best you can afford. Cheap router bits
> will ruin a lot of expensive wood.
>
> Amana is a good brand also, with some of the ones I have still going
> strong after more than a decade of use:
>
> http://www.amanatool.com/routerbits.html
>
> IMO, the 1/2" shank bits work the best with flush trim/pattern bits,
> with less chatter and a smoother cut.
>
Upscale wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:20:28 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> avoiding cheap bits). I followed your links below and I was surprised
>> to see a double bearing bit (don't think I've seen one before).
>
> A double bearing bit has a number of advantages and is usually cheaper
> than two single bearing bits. As well as being able to remove the
> upper or lower bearing for a specific routing purpose, you can usually
> buy bearings of different diameters which lets the router bit cut
> different profiles.
>
Wow, Some very-cool possibilities (that were not obvious, at least not
to me). Thanks!
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Steve" wrote:
>
>> North of Indianapolis, not too far outside the I-465 loop.
> -------------------------------------------
> That's puts you within spittin distance of the "Pyramids".
>
> Lew
I had to look it up. An office complex--with a name like that, I
thought it might be something more "romantic"...
ed_h wrote:
> On Apr 20, 12:02 pm, ed_h <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Bill--
>>
>> I like your design. Here's a bench with a very similar design I made
>> a couple of years ago:
>>
>> http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html
>
> Sorry, Bill, I didn't realize I already sent you this link on a
> previous thread. Please ignore.
>
> Ed
Ed, Thank you for resending! Great looking bench! Is it as solid as
it looks (any racking?)? What was the nature of the joinery that you
used for the vertical trestles? Sharp side vise!!
Best
Bill
ed_h wrote:
> The bench is very solid and weighs a ton (not really). I have to drag
> it around occasionally, and no sign of racking.
>
> Joinery on the legs to feet are double mortice and tenon. Stretchers
> are mortice & tenon. Cross pieces at the top of the legs are saddle
> joints. The trestles are set into recesses under the top and fastened
> with large screws in slots. Breadboard ends are traditional stopped
> tongue & groove (I guess you couls also call it a wide, short mortice
> & tenon).
Thank you! That sounds pretty close to the way Garrett Hack did it on
his bench that I read about. Both of you folks had the advantage of
having cut M&T joints before...I'll be practicing first!!! I ordered a
DeWalt 2.25 Router (w/plunge and fixed base) this week to help out.
I'll be looking up "saddle joint" in the next 5 minutes as that term is
unfamiliar to me! Thank you for sharing these details with me.
Best,
Bill
"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2010-04-18 23:13:19 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> said:
>
>> South of Indianapolis, not too far outside the I-465-loop. How about
>> yourself?
>
> North of Indianapolis, not too far outside the I-465 loop. Wanna come up
> and help unload a SawStop? <grin>
>
Congratuations on your new SawStop! I'm not good for much more than 100
pounds,
but I could help you just about anytime after May 1, if you haven't already
got it installed by then.
Just give the word.
Bill
"ed_h" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:cb89dfa3-63bc-41d0-b3a5-9cb6a6bd716d@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Cross pieces at the top of the legs are saddle
joints. The trestles are set into recesses under the top and fastened
with large screws in slots.
If I understand, then you already described what you mean by "saddle joints"
above.
It appears that Mr. Hack affixed a board on one of both sides of each
trestle top
and used screws, of course, to affix the top. It sounds like your
"recesses" are
more like shallow mortises. Both designs sound solid (and better than I
would have designed
on my own). Hopefully, I'll be able to build a bench that can pass the
"nickel test". ; )
I intend to start "production" in less than 2 weeks.
During the last few years I've been studying woodworking, but this will be
my first real
woodworking project since HS, when I last had access to some "shop space".
I should probably practice my M&T joinery on some twobyfours, huh?
Bill
"ed_h" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:26b7c0a2-5449-4b5c-8d2c-63ad30386276@o24g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
> Bill--
>
> I like your design. Here's a bench with a very similar design I made
> a couple of years ago:
>
> http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html
Very nice bench, and the drive by gloat was good ("The Burr Oak was felled,
milled, and dried on our property.").
"ed_h" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Bill--
In this context, this is what i meant by a saddle joint:
http://bullfire.net/Bench/saddle.JPG
Thank you, the picture is worth 1000 words. Mr. Hack used a double M&T
joint. Your saddle joint looks easier to "fine tune" should the trestle
tops need "leveling", should the wood warp for instance ; ) Thank you for
the idea.
Bill
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/21/2010 10:18 AM, Bill wrote:
>> "ed_h"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Bill--
>>
>> In this context, this is what i meant by a saddle joint:
>>
>> http://bullfire.net/Bench/saddle.JPG
>>
>> Thank you, the picture is worth 1000 words. Mr. Hack used a double M&T
>> joint. Your saddle joint looks easier to "fine tune" should the trestle
>> tops need "leveling", should the wood warp for instance ; ) Thank you
>> for
>> the idea.
>
> An excellent joint, but one caveat you need to consider: this is one joint
> that you will want to "pin", as it does not resist racking forces as well
> as a mortise and tenon joint.
>
> After glueup, simply drill a couple of holes through the joint and drive
> appropriately sized wooden dowels (with glue on them) through the joint.
> Depending upon the size, two will usually do.
>
> With a "corner bridle joint", this will give you much more resistance to
> racking forces.
>
> That said, don't let this dissuade you from using the joint, as it is
> indeed excellent for your application.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/21/2010 10:18 AM, Bill wrote:
>> "ed_h"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Bill--
>>
>> In this context, this is what i meant by a saddle joint:
>>
>> http://bullfire.net/Bench/saddle.JPG
>>
>> Thank you, the picture is worth 1000 words. Mr. Hack used a double M&T
>> joint. Your saddle joint looks easier to "fine tune" should the trestle
>> tops need "leveling", should the wood warp for instance ; ) Thank you
>> for
>> the idea.
>
> An excellent joint, but one caveat you need to consider: this is one joint
> that you will want to "pin", as it does not resist racking forces as well
> as a mortise and tenon joint.
>
> After glueup, simply drill a couple of holes through the joint and drive
> appropriately sized wooden dowels (with glue on them) through the joint.
> Depending upon the size, two will usually do.
>
> With a "corner bridle joint", this will give you much more resistance to
> racking forces.
>
> That said, don't let this dissuade you from using the joint, as it is
> indeed excellent for your application.
>
Swingman,
TYVM for your suggestions! Your comments about the joint and the racking
forces
make a lot of sense.
Bill
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Swingman wrote:
,
>> After glueup, simply drill a couple of holes through the joint and drive
>> appropriately sized wooden dowels (with glue on them) through the joint.
>> Depending upon the size, two will usually do.
>>
>> With a "corner bridle joint", this will give you much more resistance to
>> racking forces.
>>
>> That said, don't let this dissuade you from using the joint, as it is
>> indeed excellent for your application.
>>
After taking such care to get to this point, I might be surprised if one
should
merely screw the top to the top trestles. Of course there is about 20 linear
inches on each top trestle available for screws!
Some options which allow for a removable top seem to be:
1) Screw the top trestles to the top
2) Screw the top trestles to the top and also "block them in" (add support
around the top trestles by also screwing in wooden blocks around them)
3) Bolt the top trestles to the top (w/inset bolt)
4) Bolt the top trestles to the top (w/inset bolt) and bolt the support
blocks! (no fooling around)
(2) is definitely an improvement over (1), right? (4) looks like a
"maintenance upgrade", if ever required.
Bill
"ed_h" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:91cdeb1d-4000-426a-88dd-ae3561790074@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 21, 1:02 pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman wrote:
>
> ,
>
> >> After glueup, simply drill a couple of holes through the joint and
> >> drive
> >> appropriately sized wooden dowels (with glue on them) through the
> >> joint.
> >> Depending upon the size, two will usually do.
>
> >> With a "corner bridle joint", this will give you much more resistance
> >> to
> >> racking forces.
>
> >> That said, don't let this dissuade you from using the joint, as it is
> >> indeed excellent for your application.
>
> After taking such care to get to this point, I might be surprised if one
> should
> merely screw the top to the top trestles. Of course there is about 20
> linear
> inches on each top trestle available for screws!
>
> Some options which allow for a removable top seem to be:
>
> 1) Screw the top trestles to the top
> 2) Screw the top trestles to the top and also "block them in" (add support
> around the top trestles by also screwing in wooden blocks around them)
> 3) Bolt the top trestles to the top (w/inset bolt)
> 4) Bolt the top trestles to the top (w/inset bolt) and bolt the support
> blocks! (no fooling around)
>
> (2) is definitely an improvement over (1), right? (4) looks like a
> "maintenance upgrade", if ever required.
>
> Bill
I routed shallow pockets in the bottom of the table top to receive the
tops of the trestles. The horizontal pieces at the top of the
trestles had short slots milled in them for biggish screws to pass
through and into the top. The slots allow for expansion and
contraction of the top.
The "routed pockets" and expansion slots are both good ideas!
Your bench should give you plenty of great service!!
Bill
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:20:28 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>avoiding cheap bits). I followed your links below and I was surprised
>to see a double bearing bit (don't think I've seen one before).
A double bearing bit has a number of advantages and is usually cheaper
than two single bearing bits. As well as being able to remove the
upper or lower bearing for a specific routing purpose, you can usually
buy bearings of different diameters which lets the router bit cut
different profiles.