DIY Solid Surface?

On Fri, 20 May 2005 05:18:58 GMT, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
>> The reason why some of the laminate flooring (commercial grade Wilsonart
>> for example) stands up so well, is that the first layer is made from the
>> third-hardest stuff on the planet. VERY scratch resistant.
>
><snip>
>
> According to a high school science teacher who was also my football
> coach, the hardest thing on the planet was my head followed by a diamond.
>
> Just curious, what is #3?
>

NAH . . . SWMBO insists it's MY head. I'm pretty sure SWMBO outranks
any football coach.

On Wed, 18 May 2005 20:25:17 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

<snipped without prejudice>

What I fail to understand is the cost.

When I can buy a granite job for within ten percent of the cost of a
solid surface - why would I buy the solid surface?



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

When I first decided to install solid surface countertops, I ran into
the same thing. They almost had me convinced that there were some
esoteric skills needed to work with the stuff, and that they were doing
me a favor by protecting me from my own naivet=E9. I also asked about
an edge treatment I had in mind involving wood laminated with the
material, and was told in a patronizing tone that it wouldn't work, and
that I really needed to leave the design details to the professionals.

I poked around and finally found someone willing to sell me some stock
out the side door. Now over ten years later, the two countertops I did
myself with my edge detail are still in great shape.

I can tell you that the material is no harder to work than a dense
hardwood. The only thing that might be a little tricky is making seams
disappear.

Tom Watson <[email protected]> writes:

>When I can buy a granite job for within ten percent of the cost of a
>solid surface - why would I buy the solid surface?

My solid surface cost a lot less than 10% less than granite.

I don't like Granite because it requires periodic sealer and because it
can't be repaired. I do like the polished look, but how the long will
that polished look last?

Brian Elfert

http://www.cci-amerinite.com/solid.html
or the source http://www.amerinite.com/

I have no idea what this stuff is or how it compares to any of the others
mentioned here. Just happen to run across it while nosing around one day
and bookmarked it.

jim

"Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK, Rob, and all you other smart folks...
>
> I've seen a bunch of well reasoned, experienced posts & replies regarding
> solid surface counter tops, and how there are these great arts & mysteries
> regarding the successful installation of said beauties, and how other
> countertop materials all pale in comparision to these wonders of modern
> chemistry...
>
> Assuming the hubris which often inhabits these regions (the notion that 'I
> can do _that_')...
>
> Assuming that one already has sufficient tooling and skills to build the
> cabinets in the first place...
>
> Is there a solid surface material available for use by folks unwilling to
> sign up to be a countertop fabricator by trade, and go off to school for
> some multiweek course of instruction?
>
> Because for the prices quoted for solid surface (installed) around here, I
> can install 6/4 Honduran Mahogany, and replace it every five years, if
> needed. Laminated hard rock maple. Several varieties of Central American
> hardwoods. Granite is often cheaper.
>
> Why is it that this year's chemistry experiment, which may or may not be
an
> improvement at all, is so premium priced, and available in such a limited
> channel?
>
> OK. I'll be fine. Let me get some air.
>
> Patriarch

My comment about accountability and DIY has nothing to do with what SS
distributors believe. The point I was trying to make to Patriarch is that
if he should find a source for his SS project, it may be not that important
that he limit his search to just acrylic materials. It might be that for
one's own countertops, the after-sale warranty is just not an issue. If he
can find someone selling a polyester product at a low price, perhaps that
will fill the bill. After all, I doubt that any supplier (of acrylic or
polyester based SS) is going to extend its warranty to a non-certified
installer. Therefore in his case, he really is on his own no matter what
the material used in the project.

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take for a bad seam to fail?
Specifically, will a failure appear in a week or two or does it takes months
or even years? Most of my work is only about a year old, so I have no point
of reference on this subject.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "TEF" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snip of an excellent post]
>
> > Anyway, it is not clear to me if it is an acrylic or polyester
> > based product, but I notice that it uses the same adhesive as is used
with
> > LG's HiMac SS. So presumably, it is chemically similar to LG's
material.
> >
> LG HiMacs is acrylic and a pretty good grade at that.
> The fact that a manufacturer suggests the same adhesive as LG, doesn't
> mean much as almost all use the same adhesive on either polyester or
> acrylic.
>
> > While I recognize the expertise of Robatoy as a professional installer
and
> > the importance of his reputation to his customer base. However, if you
are
> > doing this as a DIY project, you're really only accountable to yourself.
>
> The distributors don't see it that way. They, in most cases, sign deals
> with the manufacturers who are quite anal about the warranty issues.
> They'd rather pass than get involved with the general public. They
> really do need to support their network of fabricators.
> OSHA, Elmer the Safety Elephant and HazMat-type folks have a bit to say
> about the distribution of the adhesives as well. I do not know to what
> extent that plays a role in the US, but here, in Canuckistan, it does.
> Ground transportation only.
>
>
> [snipparized for brevity]
> >
> > In conclusion, I must say that working with SS material is really quite
fun
> > and rewarding.
>
> I have always liked working with the stuff. When thermoforming
> (something which cannot be done with polyester) the creative juices
> flow. A full 1-1/2" bull-nose around the perimeter of a kidney-shaped
> island sure looks pretty cool.
> There are so many applications for that material.
> A counter top is but one application.
>
> >One will also soon realize when doing SS,
> > that the entire process is very labor intensive, so I don't fault
Robatory
> > for charging what he does.
> >
> {laughs} yea..you tell'm! I'm worth it!
>
> Thanks for the link and I appreciate your post.
>
> $180 for a sheet, eh?..Wowsers that is cheap.
>
> r

Robatoy wrote:

> No, Lew, I am not. I'd hazard a guess that the bulk would be acrylic.
> DuPont Corian, Wilsonart Gibraltar and EarthStone, Staron by Samsung are
> all acrylics. Staron was the second largest seller in the US next to
> Corian.

Glad to hear that.

Polyester is a great low cost compound, but it definitely has limits.

> No, it is acrylic. Probably the purest acrylic formulation of them all,
> Meganite is a close second, virtually impossible to tell apart, even by
> a trained chemist.

Makes sense, especially coming from DuPont.

> The adhesives are usually acrylic-based, even for bonding polyester.
> Methyl methacrylate hardened with polyisocyanate-based compounds.

Nasty stuff, hope you wear gloves when working with them.

Ever use any of the adhesives form companies like 3M and/or SikaFlex?

> (Forgive my spelling) Like the original polyester material used to make
> the counter top, it is exothermic during hardening.

Don't sweat the spelling. The exothermic is standard.

> Polyester is the binding agent that binds the aluminum trihydrate
> together.
>
>>Bondo (car body filler) is basically polyester and talc.
>
>
> There are fibres in there as well.

Not where I come from, but then it is strictly low cost automotive crap.
I never use the stuff.

The only good thing you can say about polyester IMHO, is you can lay it
over a much broader range of temperatures than you can epoxy.

> It does bond quite well to metal if the metal is properly prepared with
> course sandpaper and cleaned with methyl hydrate.

I don't know what you been smoking but it is definitely good stuff <G>.

Trying to use polyester as an adhesive is strictly a losing proposition.

I'm strictly an epoxy man so maybe my prejudice is showing <G>.

BTW, appreciate the info.

Lew

Robatoy wrote:

> The reason why some of the laminate flooring (commercial grade Wilsonart
> for example) stands up so well, is that the first layer is made from the
> third-hardest stuff on the planet. VERY scratch resistant.

<snip>

According to a high school science teacher who was also my football
coach, the hardest thing on the planet was my head followed by a diamond.

Just curious, what is #3?

Lew

Robatoy wrote:

> Got to love the Gougeon Brothers then, eh? They're close enough to run a
> pipe-line into Port Huron from Bay City..LOL

They do a great job at the retail level.

Lew

Larry Jaques wrote:


>
> Who's a good, inexpensive source for their book, Lew?


I don't have a clue.

Lew

Robatoy,

Thanks for the advice relative to seaming. I don't use the wavy bit, but do
use the backer plate that seems offer a lot of glue surface below. With six
jobs, I've not had a seam fail, so with luck, I am doing well.thus far.

Thanks for your response. By the way, do you use MDF as the substrate or
some sort of plywood? Or does it depend on the situation (e.g. MDF under
most conditions and plywood when one is doing some unsupported thing such as
the overhang on a bar)?

Thanks for your advice.


"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "TEF" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > My comment about accountability and DIY has nothing to do with what SS
> > distributors believe. The point I was trying to make to Patriarch is
that
> > if he should find a source for his SS project, it may be not that
important
> > that he limit his search to just acrylic materials.
>
> As a DYI he SHOULD focus on acrylic as it is far more forgiving than
> polyester in terms of fabricating and transporting. Simple tasks such as
> carrying the sheets is far trickier with polyester as that stuff can
> break in your hands for no obvious reason whatsoever. Acrylic is less
> brittle.
>
> >It might be that for
> > one's own countertops, the after-sale warranty is just not an issue. If
he
> > can find someone selling a polyester product at a low price, perhaps
that
> > will fill the bill. After all, I doubt that any supplier (of acrylic or
> > polyester based SS) is going to extend its warranty to a non-certified
> > installer. Therefore in his case, he really is on his own no matter
what
> > the material used in the project.
>
> See above.
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, how long does it take for a bad seam to fail?
> > Specifically, will a failure appear in a week or two or does it takes
months
> > or even years? Most of my work is only about a year old, so I have no
point
> > of reference on this subject.
>
> When I do a seam, I use a 'True-Match' bit (wavy bit) to lengthen the
> glue-line. After the seam is set-up, I adhere a 3 1/2" wide bevelled
> backer strip onto the back of the seam. In the case of an on-site seam,
> I glue that on at the same time as the seam. I have never lost a seam.
> I have, however, repaired other fabricator's seams ( I'm a warranty
> depot for some of the products). In most cases, they were installed in
> new construction and wall/cabinet movement played a part in the seam's
> demise. Seams don't 'just let go'. If yours are a year old, and the
> structure isn't moving around, you'll probably won't have a problem.
> I'm assuming you didn't over-clamp and squeezed out most of the
> adhesives.. in which case..it's a time-bomb just waiting for the right
> jolt/temperature........

Robatoy wrote:

> As the Avonite of yore was, and mostly still is, a polyester product, it
> is not indicative of the much better performance of acrylics and their
> adhesive technology.

<snip>

Are you saying that the the solid surface products found in the housing
industry are basically polyester?

Is Corian a polyester based product?

Polyester is NOT an adhesive, you can't glue it to itself and expect it
to hold.

Bondo (car body filler) is basically polyester and talc.

Ever wonder why they punch holes in the sheet metal and then cover over
with Bondo?

Mechanical interlock since Bondo won't bond to the metal.

Lew

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip of a long explanation>

Thanks, Rob. The Reader's Digest version is then that the 'product' is
a combination of the materials, distribution, fabricator, after-care
service and warranty obligations, all wrapped up into one.

Personal observation and speculation:

* Good fabricators are worth their rates. Finding one, however, is as
difficult as finding a good surgeon. Most folks don't need them
particularly often.

* Pricing seems to be an oligopoly, with pricing leadership followed
pretty closely, and no one having a great incentive (or opportunity) to
make a huge volume move.

* Fears of repetitions of the $70M problems do two things:
1) Induce folks to consider 'better brands', whatever those are
said to be, and
2) Allow 'new technology products' to be introduced into the
market, which purportedly 'solve all of the problems of the old
product'. Maybe.

So, from what you've said, there will be no DIY acrylic 'solid surface'
product available to me. OK. Sounds like porcelain tile and epoxy
grout are the better option for me. My Turbo Volvo is getting a few
miles on it. ;-) And charity begins at home.

Now if you weren't 3000 miles away from San Francisco, we could haggle a
bit, perhaps.

Thanks for the well written insight and history lesson. That's what I
was looking for.

Patriarch

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>
> When I do a seam, I use a 'True-Match' bit (wavy bit) to lengthen the
> glue-line. After the seam is set-up, I adhere a 3 1/2" wide bevelled
> backer strip onto the back of the seam. In the case of an on-site
> seam, I glue that on at the same time as the seam. I have never lost a
> seam. I have, however, repaired other fabricator's seams ( I'm a
> warranty depot for some of the products). In most cases, they were
> installed in new construction and wall/cabinet movement played a part
> in the seam's demise. Seams don't 'just let go'. If yours are a year
> old, and the structure isn't moving around, you'll probably won't have
> a problem. I'm assuming you didn't over-clamp and squeezed out most of
> the adhesives.. in which case..it's a time-bomb just waiting for the
> right jolt/temperature........
>

Another gotcha! I like in expansive soil, seismicly active SF Bay Area. I
can jack, brace & stiffen the house structure all I like, and the earth
still will move seasonally, and also randomly. So the house has some
'give' built in, and we patch (small) sheetrock cracks at the joints, and
live with it.

I'm thinking that this is going to be more trouble that the benefits
attributed to it. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it! ;-)

Patriarch

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:design-
[email protected]:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> <watson - who has a kitchen with Plam countertops and pretends to no
>> greater height>
>
> The reason why some of the laminate flooring (commercial grade
Wilsonart
> for example) stands up so well, is that the first layer is made from
the
> third-hardest stuff on the planet. VERY scratch resistant.
> Add to that the newer textures and superb photographic processes to
> duplicate/imitate granites and you have a very durable, pretty damned
> nice looking countertop for not a whole lot of money.
> Put a solid surface edge on it, with a CounterSeal undermount sink-
ring
> in the matching solid surface and the look is very classy... for about
> 25% of a granite top.

Have you a convenient url, please?

> The Formica 'Etchings' series is bloody gorgeous.

> Nothing wrong with plam.
> Besides, it's low-cost enough that you won't cry ripping it out after
> 5-7 years and start fresh with new colours. Buy a solid surface top
and
> you're decorating around IT.

"plam?" queries the OP...

>
> Give this a study... makes for great margins *G*
> http://www.counter-seal.com/prod.html
>

Patriarch

In article <[email protected]>,
Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm strictly an epoxy man so maybe my prejudice is showing <G>.

Got to love the Gougeon Brothers then, eh? They're close enough to run a
pipe-line into Port Huron from Bay City..LOL

I'm a huge fan of WEST.

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

> <watson - who has a kitchen with Plam countertops and pretends to no
> greater height>

The reason why some of the laminate flooring (commercial grade Wilsonart
for example) stands up so well, is that the first layer is made from the
third-hardest stuff on the planet. VERY scratch resistant.
Add to that the newer textures and superb photographic processes to
duplicate/imitate granites and you have a very durable, pretty damned
nice looking countertop for not a whole lot of money.
Put a solid surface edge on it, with a CounterSeal undermount sink-ring
in the matching solid surface and the look is very classy... for about
25% of a granite top.
The Formica 'Etchings' series is bloody gorgeous.
Nothing wrong with plam.
Besides, it's low-cost enough that you won't cry ripping it out after
5-7 years and start fresh with new colours. Buy a solid surface top and
you're decorating around IT.

Give this a study... makes for great margins *G*
http://www.counter-seal.com/prod.html

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't know about you but I'd like to use a material that isn't so
> fussy.

As the Avonite of yore was, and mostly still is, a polyester product, it
is not indicative of the much better performance of acrylics and their
adhesive technology. The cohesion, as opposed to adhesion, that takes
place in an acrylic joint, is a magnitude stronger than a joint in
polyester where cohesion is not possible.
I have made warranty repairs on other fabricators' Avonite (and early
Wilsonart Gibraltar, then a polyester) where the joint let go without
any fault of the fabricator. It is simply a bad system.

The only time I will fabricate a polyester Avonite Studio Collection is
when it involves no joints in the deck itself. Some of the patterns of
Studio Collection Avonite are bloody gorgeous, but still scary stuff
from a mechanical standpoint.
Avonite Formstone is made by Aristech as well as and identical to
Wilsonart Gibraltar as they are both acrylics. Some of the colours are
identical. Wilsonart changed the formulation from polyester to acrylic
and spent 70 million fixing the polyester countertops some of which
catastrophically failed under normal use and for no apparent reason.

There are no restrictions on any acrylic solid surfaces in my product
line-up in regards to joints/seams exposed to direct sunlight.

Some other professional points of view:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Polyester_vs_Acrylic_Fabrication.ht
ml

In article <[email protected]>,
"TEF" <[email protected]> wrote:

> By the way, do you use MDF as the substrate or
> some sort of plywood? Or does it depend on the situation (e.g. MDF under
> most conditions and plywood when one is doing some unsupported thing such as
> the overhang on a bar)?

I support the periphery only. Overhang is legal to about 6" unsupported.
These are specs for acrylics.
When dealing with overhangs beyond 6", 3/4" plywood to an overhang of
about 10", then it's brackets and/or legs.

In article <[email protected]>,
Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:

[snipperectomized]
>and how other
> countertop materials all pale in comparision to these wonders of modern
> chemistry...

There is no short answer. But before I get into any of it, I need to
make one thing clear. The solid surface 'look' can be had in several
different ways. The solid surface reputation in regards to
refinish-ability, non staining, seamless, hardworking abilities,
stunning looks can only be had in one way. Acrylics.
Many polyester based look-a-likes (my spell checker hates that word) are
basically made from coloured aquarium gravel slopped together in a
slurry with Bondo-like auto-body filler, poured into a flat pan, then
sanded. Similar look, different material/performance.
So when I talk about solid surface, I only talk about acrylic materials.
The rest is garbage. IMHO, YMMV.

The big guns in acrylics are DuPont, Wilsonart, Samsung, ChemPro and a
few others. Raw materials to be turned into acrylic are expensive. The
extrusion or continuous casting equipment costs gazillions of dollars.
The bulk of a sheet of solid surface is ALUMINIUM TRIHYDRATE, held
together by acrylic resin.
>
> Assuming the hubris which often inhabits these regions (the notion that 'I
> can do _that_')...
>
> Assuming that one already has sufficient tooling and skills to build the
> cabinets in the first place...

The actual machining and fabricating of a counter top is not that
difficult. You are right, basic knowledge of routers etc. will suffice.
Even a very comprehensive training course is done in a week. The finer
points do take a decade or more.

> Is there a solid surface material available for use by folks unwilling to
> sign up to be a countertop fabricator by trade, and go off to school for
> some multiweek course of instruction?

Now we get to the crux. The short answer is no. The 'why', takes much
longer. It all comes down to the manufacturers and distributor
protecting those fabricators who have the history, reputation and
reliability the be included in the warranties extended to the consumer.

If one of my counter tops is not built to specification and it therefore
screws up, like, I put a seam over a dishwasher, or through a cook-top
cut-out, and the seam fails, Samsung/Wilsonart/DuPont/et al will repair
this at no charge for 10 years. Including plumbers, electricians
whatever it takes. They (Samsung/Wilsonart/DuPont/et al) are actuarially
sticking their necks out. THEY want to be able to count on the job being
done correctly. Incidentally, I can install solid surface in the US
(Michigan in particular) without running afoul of immigration/labour
laws, because I am included in the product. If *I* don't install, there
is no warranty on a top I built, and the customer won't be protected.
>
> Because for the prices quoted for solid surface (installed) around here, I
> can install 6/4 Honduran Mahogany, and replace it every five years, if
> needed. Laminated hard rock maple. Several varieties of Central American
> hardwoods. Granite is often cheaper.

All those options are open to you and anyone else. If you want to clean
a chicken on a piece of butcher block and have your kid make a sandwich
on the same surface a bit later (on a warm summer day..YUMMY!) than that
is your choice. ( I have read enough of your posts to know that you're
smarter than that, but not everybody is.)
>
> Why is it that this year's chemistry experiment, which may or may not be an
> improvement at all, is so premium priced, and available in such a limited
> channel?

This year's experiment is 30 years old. I have been fabricating for 18
years, since Corian came in 4 colours. ( I got involved with the stuff
because I was looking for a new material to build loudspeakers, hence
the tie-in with cabinets and my electrical/acoustics background) I stuck
my neck out adopting a product in my line-up which was laughed about
when I did it. $200.00 per lineal foot? Ya nuts? (That was 1988)
The raw materials are expensive, and I have a passion for
twin-turbocharged Audis.... hence the price. (Fein/Festool get theirs
too)
The exclusivity? If any of the Samsung/Wilsonart/DuPont/et al-group
would sell to a customer directly, I would drop them like a hot potato.
There would no longer be a reason for me to run ads, expensive brochures
with their name on them. The bulk of my business is word-of-mouth. When
a potential customer asks me what I recommend, it won't the distributor
who is whoring the product out the side-door.

I hope that gives you some insight, and if you have any more questions,
I'll try to answer them. Best way is to go to my website www.topworks.ca
and hit the contact button.
>
> OK. I'll be fine. Let me get some air.

My turn for some air. *G* Now watch some schmuck upwind from me having a
smoke on his porch... or worse, smoking some ribs. Gorgeous rib-smoking
day. I'm looking for small chips of Hickory for my smoker..maybe I'll
get a stump and run it through the planer.
>
> Patriarch

In article <[email protected]>,
"TEF" <[email protected]> wrote:

> My comment about accountability and DIY has nothing to do with what SS
> distributors believe. The point I was trying to make to Patriarch is that
> if he should find a source for his SS project, it may be not that important
> that he limit his search to just acrylic materials.

As a DYI he SHOULD focus on acrylic as it is far more forgiving than
polyester in terms of fabricating and transporting. Simple tasks such as
carrying the sheets is far trickier with polyester as that stuff can
break in your hands for no obvious reason whatsoever. Acrylic is less
brittle.

>It might be that for
> one's own countertops, the after-sale warranty is just not an issue. If he
> can find someone selling a polyester product at a low price, perhaps that
> will fill the bill. After all, I doubt that any supplier (of acrylic or
> polyester based SS) is going to extend its warranty to a non-certified
> installer. Therefore in his case, he really is on his own no matter what
> the material used in the project.

See above.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how long does it take for a bad seam to fail?
> Specifically, will a failure appear in a week or two or does it takes months
> or even years? Most of my work is only about a year old, so I have no point
> of reference on this subject.

When I do a seam, I use a 'True-Match' bit (wavy bit) to lengthen the
glue-line. After the seam is set-up, I adhere a 3 1/2" wide bevelled
backer strip onto the back of the seam. In the case of an on-site seam,
I glue that on at the same time as the seam. I have never lost a seam.
I have, however, repaired other fabricator's seams ( I'm a warranty
depot for some of the products). In most cases, they were installed in
new construction and wall/cabinet movement played a part in the seam's
demise. Seams don't 'just let go'. If yours are a year old, and the
structure isn't moving around, you'll probably won't have a problem.
I'm assuming you didn't over-clamp and squeezed out most of the
adhesives.. in which case..it's a time-bomb just waiting for the right
jolt/temperature........

In article <[email protected]>,
Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > As the Avonite of yore was, and mostly still is, a polyester product, it
> > is not indicative of the much better performance of acrylics and their
> > adhesive technology.
>
> <snip>
>
> Are you saying that the the solid surface products found in the housing
> industry are basically polyester?

No, Lew, I am not. I'd hazard a guess that the bulk would be acrylic.
DuPont Corian, Wilsonart Gibraltar and EarthStone, Staron by Samsung are
all acrylics. Staron was the second largest seller in the US next to
Corian.
>
> Is Corian a polyester based product?

No, it is acrylic. Probably the purest acrylic formulation of them all,
Meganite is a close second, virtually impossible to tell apart, even by
a trained chemist.
>
> Polyester is NOT an adhesive, you can't glue it to itself and expect it
> to hold.
The adhesives are usually acrylic-based, even for bonding polyester.
Methyl methacrylate hardened with polyisocyanate-based compounds.
(Forgive my spelling) Like the original polyester material used to make
the counter top, it is exothermic during hardening.
Polyester is the binding agent that binds the aluminum trihydrate
together.
>
> Bondo (car body filler) is basically polyester and talc.

There are fibres in there as well.
>
> Ever wonder why they punch holes in the sheet metal and then cover over
> with Bondo?

To give it some mechanical 'tooth'. Not done by better body people.
>
> Mechanical interlock since Bondo won't bond to the metal.

It does bond quite well to metal if the metal is properly prepared with
course sandpaper and cleaned with methyl hydrate.
>
> Lew

In article <[email protected]>,
Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ever use any of the adhesives form companies like 3M and/or SikaFlex?

LockWeld is running with this ball. Orthopaedic surgeons use it to
install new joints. 8215 mix-pac 10:1. Nice stuff.

I will look into 3M and SikaFlex. I always look for new solutions.
Thanks for the pointers.

In article <[email protected]>,
Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:

[snipperizationalized]
> Have you a convenient url, please?

You asked..*G*

MANY combos are possible, but this one looks just bloody incredible:
http://www.formica.com/colorchipdetails.jsp?chip_id=663
with a Staron Sanded Onyx edge----> downright classy.
Get the GP grade of laminate. Mount on MDF 3/4"
I have some samples of that set-up that I can photograph and e-mail.
Contact me via my site www.topworks.ca

Lucky for the DIY-guy, many distributors will sell 1-3/4"-wide strips
of solid surface to anybody. They also sell 5 3/4" wide strips so you
can cut off the front strip and have a nice backsplash left over.
Backsplashes made from 1/2" thick Solid Surfacing follow the walls
nicely. The strips are usually sold 2 x 6' so they're UPS-able.

If you take a look at this graphic:
http://www.counter-seal.com/sche.html
..and replace the part which is indicated as 'CounterSeal' with a strip
of SS 1 1/2" tall, there is your edge.

Those solid surface rings, to undermount a sink, are not cheap but the
result is superb. (I would sink the money into a high-grade Franke sink
drop-in instead of the CounterSeal, because the ring is tricky to
install. It's different for a fabricator who will get to use the
experience and tooling/templates over and over again.
Blanco makes a line of sinks which are drop-ins and are made from a
black composite which looks a lot like solid surface.
http://www.blanco-america.com/final_files_3/diamonddouble.html


If you finish that off with a dropped down small round-over bit, the
dark line from the P-lam will blend in with the solid surface edge and
virtually disappear.
The edge is splined on with SS adhesive.

Integra Adhesives will sell just one tube with a cheapie dispenser, so
your tooling outlay will be minimal. Call them and tell them what you're
up to.
http://integra-adhesives.com
They even have an adaptor which will convert a regular caulking gun into
a mixer-type for some of their cartridges.

WARNING! The results will look so good, your friends and family will all
want one. You will need that Festool router after all!


> "plam?" queries the OP...

P-Lam, short for High Pressure Laminate. HP-lam, plam.

In article <[email protected]>,
"TEF" <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip of an excellent post]

> Anyway, it is not clear to me if it is an acrylic or polyester
> based product, but I notice that it uses the same adhesive as is used with
> LG's HiMac SS. So presumably, it is chemically similar to LG's material.
>
LG HiMacs is acrylic and a pretty good grade at that.
The fact that a manufacturer suggests the same adhesive as LG, doesn't
mean much as almost all use the same adhesive on either polyester or
acrylic.

> While I recognize the expertise of Robatoy as a professional installer and
> the importance of his reputation to his customer base. However, if you are
> doing this as a DIY project, you're really only accountable to yourself.

The distributors don't see it that way. They, in most cases, sign deals
with the manufacturers who are quite anal about the warranty issues.
They'd rather pass than get involved with the general public. They
really do need to support their network of fabricators.
OSHA, Elmer the Safety Elephant and HazMat-type folks have a bit to say
about the distribution of the adhesives as well. I do not know to what
extent that plays a role in the US, but here, in Canuckistan, it does.
Ground transportation only.


[snipparized for brevity]
>
> In conclusion, I must say that working with SS material is really quite fun
> and rewarding.

I have always liked working with the stuff. When thermoforming
(something which cannot be done with polyester) the creative juices
flow. A full 1-1/2" bull-nose around the perimeter of a kidney-shaped
island sure looks pretty cool.
There are so many applications for that material.
A counter top is but one application.

>One will also soon realize when doing SS,
> that the entire process is very labor intensive, so I don't fault Robatory
> for charging what he does.
>
{laughs} yea..you tell'm! I'm worth it!

Thanks for the link and I appreciate your post.

$180 for a sheet, eh?..Wowsers that is cheap.

r

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 May 2005 20:25:17 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> <snipped without prejudice>

LOL
>
> What I fail to understand is the cost.

Big things are happening with cost. Currently Corian is holding up the
prices. The big box stores are then making their mark-ups.

If I can buy similar material for 40% less, will I pass all of those
savings to a customer, or will I get 10% below the Corian price, vastly
increasing my margins and still make the deal? I have had customers
insisting on Corian, regardless of price. They have the rep.

Granite needs to be sealed, granite in many cases will have seams.
Granite colours are limited. Granite does not have a 10 year warranty.
Many people don't like the shine of granite. Granite won't give you a
totally seamless transition to an undermount sink. Granite's big enemies
are oils and germs. There are nooks and crannies where salmonella can
hide. You can't use bleach to sterilize granite, it will stain. When
granite cracks after the 90-day - 1 year warranty expires, it cannot be
repaired. It cannot be refinished in-house and it can and will scratch
over time.

Is a quality granite gorgeous? You bet. Do you know there are 3
different grades of some of the colours? Not all Tropical Browns are
created equal. I sell granite, i don't have the diamond beam-saws to
deal with it...or the back-muscles.
>
> When I can buy a granite job for within ten percent of the cost of a
> solid surface - why would I buy the solid surface?
>
I find the spread much greater than that... at least here. Corian and
granite are neck on neck in the Borgs, I'm way lower in price.

>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Wed, 18 May 2005 23:12:25 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:


>
>Granite needs to be sealed, granite in many cases will have seams.
>Granite colours are limited. Granite does not have a 10 year warranty.
>Many people don't like the shine of granite. Granite won't give you a
>totally seamless transition to an undermount sink. Granite's big enemies
>are oils and germs. There are nooks and crannies where salmonella can
>hide. You can't use bleach to sterilize granite, it will stain. When
>granite cracks after the 90-day - 1 year warranty expires, it cannot be
>repaired. It cannot be refinished in-house and it can and will scratch
>over time.


This is a damned good, well reasoned argument, Rob.

I appreciate you taking the time to put it up.

<watson - who has a kitchen with Plam countertops and pretends to no
greater height>




Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Wed, 18 May 2005 10:57:50 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:


<mucho snippo>
>
>Because for the prices quoted for solid surface (installed) around here, I
>can install 6/4 Honduran Mahogany, and replace it every five years, if
>needed. Laminated hard rock maple. Several varieties of Central American
>hardwoods. Granite is often cheaper.


I did a fair amount of solid surface stuff in the early and mid
eighties. When the specialty shops really got into it I got out.
They could produce and install the job for less than what I could buy
the materials for. We were both buying from the same supplier - he in
truckloads, me by the sheet.

I was trained in only two products; Avonite and Corian. These were
the major providers in my area at the time.

During my last five to seven years in the cabinet business I saw most
of my high end kitchens go to granite, because you could buy a number
two granite installation for about the same price as a solid surface
job.

I'll tell you a story that I find to be interesting.

When I went to Avonite school at our local distributor (who also
handled Corian) we were taught things like; not to use a saber saw to
make sink cutouts, not to butt joints that were only cut with a saw
and not routed off smooth, not to leave an inside corner in a cutout
that wasn't of a specific radius, not to bed a cooktop without using a
specific 3M tape, etc.

We did a kitchen with an Avonite top and it failed at a joint. Both
myself and the other mechanic on the job had been through the Avonite
school and followed the recommendations religiously. But the seam
failed.

Avonite sent out two 'specialists' from California to fix the job.

They cut the material with a hand circular saw and didn't clean the
joint up with a router. They cut the sink out with a saber saw and
did not use the prescribed radius. They did not wipe the joints down
with alcohol prior to making the joint. They belt sanded the joint
flush. And they didn't use that special 3M tape, neither.

Then they declared the project to be fixed and sought to backcharge
our company.

We neglected to pay the bill.

Six months later there was a TSB explaining that joints that were made
near a window that received full sun for a specified portion of the
day (defining our condition entirely) were prone to failure, if the
heat gain was sufficient.

I don't know about you but I'd like to use a material that isn't so
fussy.

Check your granite prices.






Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Before you throw in the towel relative to DIY solid surface, perhaps you
might want to check out the following website from an LA company:
http://www.dreamkitchensla.com

From what I can tell they are selling Chinese-made product called Montelli.
While it may sound a little foolish to deal with a Chinese company with an
Italian name, the company is actually owned by Dupont USA (also the makers
of Corian). Anyway, it is not clear to me if it is an acrylic or polyester
based product, but I notice that it uses the same adhesive as is used with
LG's HiMac SS. So presumably, it is chemically similar to LG's material. In
any event, they are pricing 30" x 120" x 1/2" at $180 each which seems
pretty reasonable. Moreover, if you are in CA, you might be able to pick up
the product and save on shipping.

While I recognize the expertise of Robatoy as a professional installer and
the importance of his reputation to his customer base. However, if you are
doing this as a DIY project, you're really only accountable to yourself.
Therefore, you might consider a polyester-based material even if it does not
meet everyone's standards. (FYI - both Home Depot and Lowes sell LG HiMac,
so polyesters can't be that inferior or these large chains will have some
real customer relations problems in the future.)

When I retired from the Foreign Service, I decided to buy in a less
expensive area of the U.S. (western PA). I bought a larger, older home that
needed updating. Among the DIY projects were the renovation of a large
kitchen and 3.5 baths. Like you, I could not afford a professional
installer, but decided to learn solid surface fabrication. With no
disrespect for those professionals in the business, I think that the
expertise demanded by the trade is somewhat overstated. In my opinion, in
terms of precision and effort, there is far more concentration and planning
needed in construction of a set of dresser drawers than the average SS
kitchen countertop. In fact, a lot of the larger installers have invested
in computer-driven manufacturing tools that do all the intricate measuring
and cutting.

Much of fabrication of larger tops is the preplanning of how one will join
the various pieces to ensure that seams will not break over time. Robatoy
has pointed out many of the common mistakes (such as seaming tops over
unsupported spans such as dishwashers, etc.). Another consideration if one
is working on, say, an L-shaped counter that the seam is not put right at
the intersection of the "L". Typically, seams are best located on straight
stretches of counter, so that one can ensure that the top and edges can be
machined and polished to remove any visible trace of a joint. SS work, like
woodworking, involves measuring and measuring again to ensure that large cut
pieces actually line up when glued together. If, for example, one is doing
a large L-shaped counter and when the pieces are mated, your 90 degree angle
is really 85 degrees, then the top may not conform to the kitchen wall. The
SS tool investment for me was limited to some specialty router bits, a
hotmelt glue gun, a SS glue gun and a range of abrasives needed for sanding
and polishing the stuff. Adhesives, of course, are matched to the material
and color being fabricated and run about $20/tube.

In conclusion, I must say that working with SS material is really quite fun
and rewarding. One is especially pleased when the final details have been
completed and the spouse is all excited with her new kitchen or bath
countertop. I've even been asked by friends and relatives to do work for
them. However, I don't recommend this, because it is much more difficult
working in another person's home. One will also soon realize when doing SS,
that the entire process is very labor intensive, so I don't fault Robatory
for charging what he does.

Good luck.

"Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> <snip of a long explanation>
>
> Thanks, Rob. The Reader's Digest version is then that the 'product' is
> a combination of the materials, distribution, fabricator, after-care
> service and warranty obligations, all wrapped up into one.
>
> Personal observation and speculation:
>
> * Good fabricators are worth their rates. Finding one, however, is as
> difficult as finding a good surgeon. Most folks don't need them
> particularly often.
>
> * Pricing seems to be an oligopoly, with pricing leadership followed
> pretty closely, and no one having a great incentive (or opportunity) to
> make a huge volume move.
>
> * Fears of repetitions of the $70M problems do two things:
> 1) Induce folks to consider 'better brands', whatever those are
> said to be, and
> 2) Allow 'new technology products' to be introduced into the
> market, which purportedly 'solve all of the problems of the old
> product'. Maybe.
>
> So, from what you've said, there will be no DIY acrylic 'solid surface'
> product available to me. OK. Sounds like porcelain tile and epoxy
> grout are the better option for me. My Turbo Volvo is getting a few
> miles on it. ;-) And charity begins at home.
>
> Now if you weren't 3000 miles away from San Francisco, we could haggle a
> bit, perhaps.
>
> Thanks for the well written insight and history lesson. That's what I
> was looking for.
>
> Patriarch

Robatoy wrote:

> I will look into 3M and SikaFlex. I always look for new solutions.
> Thanks for the pointers.

SikaFlex tech service is in metro Detroit and has an 800#.

I have found them to be very good.

Lew

On Fri, 20 May 2005 02:48:39 -0400, the inscrutable Robatoy
<[email protected]> spake:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm strictly an epoxy man so maybe my prejudice is showing <G>.
>
>Got to love the Gougeon Brothers then, eh? They're close enough to run a
>pipe-line into Port Huron from Bay City..LOL
>
>I'm a huge fan of WEST.

Who's a good, inexpensive source for their book, Lew?


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