I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
seems nobody wants to do that anymore in this area (just outside LA)
While I have never taught shop, I have been a hobbiest for most of my
adult life, and, if I dare say so myself, I am not that bad a wood
butcher. I am not, however, a true expert or professional. My principal
knows me, my work, and my interest in wood and asked if next year I
would like to take over the wood shop. The present wood teacher, and all
other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been friends for many
years and he has offered me all the help I need or want, as well as all
of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in
hearing the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those
who have been there.
"George" wrote in message
> > > > Swingman wrote:
> > > > Addressed in my "Modest Proposals for Good Government":
> > > >
> > > > No politician can be paid more than a school teacher.
> > > > No lawyer can hold public office.
> > > > Violation of public trust is a capital offense.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What a load of fertilizer.
> >
> > Lighten up, George ... your sanctimonious preaching fits the day, but
not
> > the situation.
> >
>
> And just what is more important to the future of the Republic than
learning?
And how on earth did you come up with "learning" wasn't important from the
above?
> Your "thinking" is about as light as it gets.
Judging from the out-of-leftfield assumption above, your "thinking"
apparently suffers from twisted panties today, George ... Kiss my ass.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
Jim Behning wrote:
> I think my high school shop teacher had one goal. Blood splatter
> reduction. I do not recall any instruction at all in 2 years of wood
> shop.
>
> My college instructor introduced the class to the tools, told us not
> to drop stuff, and do not use your foot to stop a sharp chisel from
> hitting the floor. He told use at the start there would be no power
> sanders available and no stain was allowed. The next thing he had us
> do was sketch a project and then draw it to scale. Buy some wood and
> start building. He had helpers there to work with the less skilled.
> Helpers are a good thing but in high school the wood nerds might not
> get the respect they deserve.
>
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
My High School teacher was into blood splatter reduction, unless he was
the one splattering our blood! He ruled with an iron fist and a two by
four and if you didn't comply with the letter of HIS LAW you could find
yourself sitting at a drafting table trying to make a satisfactory
rendering of a nut or a bolt. Really, I can't remember him ever having
to resort to anything more than threats and drafting to keep us under
control. There was one time he took a kid out to the loading dock for
a little "man to Man" but neither of them spoke of it, ever. That kid
stayed with him for four years of class and wound up being a fine
cabinet maker. He was a dinosaur in the education world in 1980 and
one of the best guys I ever had the pleasure of BS'ing with. He truly
believed that everyone deserved a shot at the good life and he was
going to equip them for the task even if it killed them.
If your Principal will stand behind your enforcement of the basic rules
of survival in a shop class I say go for it. "Cool" kids won't come
around if you make them wear an apron and silly glasses the entire time
they are on the shop floor.
J.
As a retired "shop" teacher from Texas who was turned into a computer
teacher 'cause these students are all going to college' then a "tech"
teacher which is shop without the tools-- computer based, some of you
younger folks might even have taken my class or one like it... but I
digress
, I feel compelled to jump in. BTW - I taught Middle school Industrial
technology-- so all of my comments are directed from that level
VERRRRRy beginning
Teach safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety-
Make 'em pass a general safety test to do any kind of work with hand
tools-- (enforce your safety rules-- If kids are unsafe, they should be
sent to the office- or given whatever safety related
punishment/reinstruction (can I say punishment anymore these days?)
that will reinforce the rule that was broken.
I cannot stress enough that chronically unsafe children should not be
in the shop setting.!!!!! Before I would take on even a part time
situation like that I would have to come to some agreement with
administration on that factor alone. Most partents who have children in
a shop classroom expect you as a teacher, to look out for their kids.
I once told an administrator (and also the parent of a troubled youth-
consistant -safety violator) that "neither I nor they could afford to
have this student in a sharp tool enviornment-- the lawyers will eat us
up"-- BTW- the student was removed to another, safer elective.
I used to give a class on each power tool- along with the associated
safety rules & safety demonstration-and application demonstration- then
students had to pass a safety test on that tool before being allowed to
use it --Then they had to ask permission to use the tool & tell me what
they were going to use it for ( a chart, a listing of the names of
students who had passed each test could be posted (now a days, the
chart would most likely have to be your eyes only as not to embarass
someone & spark a lawsuit)was handy, so I could see which kid had
actually passed the test. Also, each student had to give me a
practical demonstration of the tool (also could be added to the chart).
No student was allowed to use the table saw-- Most were way too short &
didn't have the reach-- Only a few could use the band saw (tough test).
Most could use the jig saws , lathes, drill presses, stationary
sanders, and the jointer with my supervision only. Most could use the
surface planer-- but I had to inspect each glued up section for glue --
I made them scrape it ALL off-- sharpening the 'ol Powermatic was a
real pain. Power sanders -- vibrating- Rockewll- could only be used if
the area they were sanding was lager than the sanding pad of the
sander, Otherwise, they scraped & sanded if necessary.
If you are going to teach design, the kids almost have to be in the
class for a year. Typically, the kids I had were in my class for a
semester-- some only six weeks.
If you find yourself in that position-- semester first:
Safety many times-- Safety poster contest-- video is great
interdisciplinary coursework-- prize? up to you & the administration.
If the class is quick, you might be able to do a little design,
drafting & execution of projects.
9 weeks class-- almost impossible to teach design-- hard enough in 18
weeks-- best to have a number of demostration projects with available
plans after you do all the safety education & tool demonstrations
6 weeks-- hand tools only for a very limited selection of projects--
almost kits (you make the kits)
The less time you have with the kids, the more materials prep you will
have to do. That will take up your conference period and some after
school hours.
Disclaimer: I'm not really advocating that kids be run through a
program tht only allows a set amount of sterile projects to be made--
Kids should have the ability to design, draw and implement anything
their hearts desire. The time I had with an individual child dwindled
from over two years (1976) as a two year possible elective-- to a
semester (1999)-- then the six graders started rotating every six
weeks----Remember one thing-- The kids will make what they see you
make, so show them quality stuff if possible---- sorry group-- got
carried away
Phil
Mike H. wrote:
> > Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?
>
> Entry level? My mom teaches in OK, and when I graduated from
college, I
> started out as an engineer making more than her _30 year_ salary,
which
> means she was making less than 45K.
>
> Entry level there is about 24K, and gas station attendants make about
that
> much starting out. And that is indeed sad.
>
> I would be a teacher if it wasn't for that nonsense.
I would like to speak up here. My grandmother, mother, aunt and sister
are all educators; my grandfather, cousin and uncles are/were bus
drivers and my dad sat on our parish school board for a number of
years, so I've been on "the other side" of education pretty much my
whole life.
I think that teachers do okay money-wise, and here's why:
1. GOOD retirement plan
2. Good, relatively inexpensive benefit package
3. No nights, holidays, weekends, etc.
3. Less work. Teachers work as hard, they just don't work as often.
Assuming a 40-hour work week, a teacher works 1440 hours a year, versus
2000 hours (36 weeks versus 50) for a "regular" job.
I'm not saying that teachers make enough money. If we want
well-educated kids, we need well-paid teachers. I am, however saying
that the pay per hour for school teachers isn't as abysmally low as it
seems when looking at it from a yearly salary perspective.
Like Charlie Self pointed out earlier, if Silvan (or Glen, for that
matter to make up for his loss of Dept Head pay) wants to, there are
plenty of summer jobs available. The field that comes to mind
immediately is construction. The pay per hour is probably going to be
less than than teaching, but it is after all a summer job. If you're
not afraid to sweat and I do mean SWEAT), mason tenders are ALWAYS in
short supply, and the pay is decent. Another option less hard on the
body is carpentry. If you can lay out and build a chess board, you can
frame a house. It takes a while to learn.... I digress.
To Glen, I say go for it. You obviously have the tools to be an
educator, so what's the difference, conceptually, between teaching
science and teaching shop? The mechanics may differ, but a shop
setting (I would imagine) would be a bit like a lab setting in a
science class.
Sorry if I stepped on any teachers' toes.
-Phil Crow
Touche.
Admittedly, my mom has been in administration for quite a few years,
and most of her stories are about teachers like your neighbor. This is
exacerbated by the fact that she's one of the people who go the extra
mile. I further acknowledge that the life of the teacher has gotten
increasingly difficult, and my own mother said to me that she herself
would not go into education today. But don't let that stop you, guys!
<g>
-Phil Crow
"George" wrote in message
>where an increasingly clueless generation is being taught by one
> nearly as inexperienced.
Well, you know, the heft of the hooters and fit of the jeans are, you know,
after all, the most important qualifications for teaching DIY these days,
you know.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:01:51 GMT, "FMB" <[email protected]> calmly
ranted:
>"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:41:55 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>>
><snip>
>>
>> I have yet to see a plumber in a lace thong. <G>
>>
>> Barry
>
>Apparently, you have not had a leaky faucet in SF. That is most definately
>a good reason to learn to do your own plumbing.
Plumbers in training? I opt for the Eurochick, fer sher.
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/205.html
--
From time to time, we have been tempted to believe that society has
become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by
an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people.
But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who
among us has the capacity to govern someone else?
All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the
burden. The solutions we seek must be equitable, with no one
group singled out to pay a higher price.
-President Ronald Reagan
First Inaugural Address
Tuesday, January 20, 1981
Swingman responds:
>
>"George" wrote in message
>
>>where an increasingly clueless generation is being taught by one
>> nearly as inexperienced.
>
>Well, you know, the heft of the hooters and fit of the jeans are, you know,
>after all, the most important qualifications for teaching DIY these days,
>you know.
Hah. Didja ever expect to see 15 year old girls with plumber's butt jeans?
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:41:55 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I have yet to see a plumber in a lace thong. <G>
>
> Barry
Apparently, you have not had a leaky faucet in SF. That is most definately
a good reason to learn to do your own plumbing.
--
FMB
(only one B in FMB)
I've embarrassed (pun intended) a few in class by asking them if they were
going to be plumbers. They pull up and sit up pretty well after that.
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hah. Didja ever expect to see 15 year old girls with plumber's butt jeans?
>
> Charlie Self
> "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
On 11 Dec 2004 14:53:22 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
calmly ranted:
>Swingman responds:
>>"George" wrote in message
>>
>>>where an increasingly clueless generation is being taught by one
>>> nearly as inexperienced.
>>
>>Well, you know, the heft of the hooters and fit of the jeans are, you know,
>>after all, the most important qualifications for teaching DIY these days,
>>you know.
>
>Hah. Didja ever expect to see 15 year old girls with plumber's butt jeans?
No, but I'm sure we all wished we could. <domg>
P.S: Make that "18" just so we's legal and all that, huh?
==============================================================
Like peace and quiet? Buy a phoneless cord.
http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
==============================================================
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:41:55 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>I've embarrassed (pun intended) a few in class by asking them if they were
>going to be plumbers. They pull up and sit up pretty well after that.
The high school girls I see sitting in front of me at the hockey arena
certainly don't seem embarrassed. I was under the impression that the
visible thong straps were on purpose. Kind of like the garter straps
that are longer than the skirt that we saw in past style fads.
I have yet to see a plumber in a lace thong. <G>
Barry
Barry writes:
>
>The high school girls I see sitting in front of me at the hockey arena
>certainly don't seem embarrassed. I was under the impression that the
>visible thong straps were on purpose. Kind of like the garter straps
>that are longer than the skirt that we saw in past style fads.
>
>I have yet to see a plumber in a lace thong. <G>
You just don't know the right class of plumbers. :)
I attended a grandson's graduation ceremony last June, held at Liberty
University. The woman in front of me, and her daughter (maybe 15) appeared to
be a nearly matched pair, except that Mama had a large butterfly tattoed just
above one cheek, and the youngster had a Maltese cross (Gothic, today, I guess)
in a similar spot. Both were up and down a lot, so their waistlines and thong
tops were visible often, if not constantly.
Almost enough to make me wish I were young again--at least young enough to
remember Mama!
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
Glen wrote:
> I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
> any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
> academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
> language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
> wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
> replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
This is kind of interesting. I'm not a teacher, and have been driving a
truck for most of the years since I majored in foreign languages, but I've
always had it in the back of my mind that one day I might decide to go back
to school for a bit and get trained up to teach high school. (The politics
of it have kept me away. I don't know any happy teachers in these parts.
Plus I was originally on a PhD track, and didn't take any teacher training,
so I'm not certified.)
Unsurprisingly, I have always thought in terms of teaching language classes.
Then just a bit ago a friend of mine told me the local school system is
desperate for a shop teacher, and I should put in for it. It's an
intriguing notion. I could probably just about get the job based on this
friend's recommendation, but I'm not at all sure I have the right stuff to
do the job.
I'm self-taught. I've never had a class from any store or school. Could I
teach shop? What do they even teach in shop class? I'm reading this
thread with keen interest.
(Although, everything else aside, I probably can't afford to take the pay
cut anyway. Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Swingman wrote:
> Judging from the out-of-leftfield assumption above, your "thinking"
> apparently suffers from twisted panties today, George ... Kiss my ass.
BLRMPH! Where do I send the dry cleaning bill?
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Well the dream job would be the one at our HS, where the "shop" teacher also
teaches science. As I used to say, that's all you need in life - science
and shop.
If you have the support of the principal and administration, you may avoid
the biggest problem, that of classes overloaded with goof-offs. Span of
control is critical in a shop, where things are sharp and or mechanically
dangerous. If you have the power to keep 'em out or kick 'em out and the
principal to back you up, you'll have a class where you can put your head
down and help. The four corners theory of malcontents doesn't work if they
have to move around to accomplish a task.
I liked the upper class assistant program to put a junior or senior of my
choice in class with the young ones. The extra eyes and hands made the
class much more worthwhile. Your most experienced class is also responsible
for most machinery adjustment and cleaning - part of their grade is
"maintenance" - for which I used to repay by "open shop" after hours once or
twice a week. Since they were not bus-dependant, it gave them a couple
hours of uninterrupted work, and me sharpening time. It could get you in
Dutch with the rest of the faculty, so be careful as you read your contract.
The smaller group of motivated individuals can really turn out some work.
My pet project is a "survival" course in how water gets into a house and
out the drain, electricity, and generally how to take care of things at
home, where an increasingly clueless generation is being taught by one
nearly as inexperienced.
"Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
> any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
> academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
> language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
> wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
> replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
> seems nobody wants to do that anymore in this area (just outside LA)
> While I have never taught shop, I have been a hobbiest for most of my
> adult life, and, if I dare say so myself, I am not that bad a wood
> butcher. I am not, however, a true expert or professional. My principal
> knows me, my work, and my interest in wood and asked if next year I
> would like to take over the wood shop. The present wood teacher, and all
> other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been friends for many
> years and he has offered me all the help I need or want, as well as all
> of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
>
> Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
> could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in
> hearing the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those
> who have been there.
>If you have the support of the principal and administration, you may avoid
>the biggest problem, that of classes overloaded with goof-offs. Span of
>control is critical in a shop, where things are sharp and or mechanically
>dangerous. If you have the power to keep 'em out or kick 'em out and the
>principal to back you up, you'll have a class where you can put your head
>down and help. The four corners theory of malcontents doesn't work if they
>have to move around to accomplish a task.
He can't have that power no matter how much support he has. The IDEA
(Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) clearly requires mainstreaming
Special Education students into the regular classroom and many attend shop
classes. You simply cannot remove such students from your classes, you must
find ways to teach them. Being a Shop teacher is not simply enjoying your hobby
while showing some interested kids how to use tools. It is an educational
program that requires at least as much ability to develop educational
approaches and strategies as any academic program and teachers there are no
more able to throw away the hard to reach students than academic teachers are.
I would assume that you will have to get your appropriate certification in
Technology Education (or whatever they call the shop, CAD and other such
curricular areas in California). I hope that the education process will help
provide the strategies for teaching in that environment.
Dave Hall
And this has what to do with chronic mis-behavers? The short-bus kids are
some of the best at listening to and following directions in my experience.
"David Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >If you have the support of the principal and administration, you may
avoid
> >the biggest problem, that of classes overloaded with goof-offs. Span of
> >control is critical in a shop, where things are sharp and or mechanically
> >dangerous. If you have the power to keep 'em out or kick 'em out and
the
> >principal to back you up, you'll have a class where you can put your head
> >down and help. The four corners theory of malcontents doesn't work if
they
> >have to move around to accomplish a task.
>
> He can't have that power no matter how much support he has. The IDEA
> (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) clearly requires
mainstreaming
> Special Education students into the regular classroom and many attend shop
> classes. You simply cannot remove such students from your classes, you
must
> find ways to teach them. Being a Shop teacher is not simply enjoying your
hobby
> while showing some interested kids how to use tools. It is an educational
> program that requires at least as much ability to develop educational
> approaches and strategies as any academic program and teachers there are
no
> more able to throw away the hard to reach students than academic teachers
are.
> I would assume that you will have to get your appropriate certification in
> Technology Education (or whatever they call the shop, CAD and other such
> curricular areas in California). I hope that the education process will
help
> provide the strategies for teaching in that environment.
>
> Dave Hall
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike H." wrote in message
> >
> > > Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?
> >
> > Entry level? My mom teaches in OK, and when I graduated from college, I
> > started out as an engineer making more than her _30 year_ salary, which
> > means she was making less than 45K.
> >
> > Entry level there is about 24K, and gas station attendants make about
that
> > much starting out. And that is indeed sad.
> >
> > I would be a teacher if it wasn't for that nonsense.
>
> Addressed in my "Modest Proposals for Good Government":
>
> No politician can be paid more than a school teacher.
> No lawyer can hold public office.
> Violation of public trust is a capital offense.
>
What a load of fertilizer.
Paying more doesn't get you more, especially in people. The problem is
actually the opposite - people who view teaching as a calling, and would
work for a wage sufficient to support a single (with summer work) or
supplement a marriage, are turned off by the wage-grubbers and union thugs
demanding more and more money. When you motivate with money, you get people
whose only motivation is more money.
Unfortunately, teachers as a group also have less education, lower SAT/ACT
scores, and less respect for education than other groups. Even when the
contract _guarantees_ a substantial pay raise for putting in the time for a
masters, few get one. I don't even want to comment on the content of those
"teacher" courses. I took academic.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > > Addressed in my "Modest Proposals for Good Government":
> > >
> > > No politician can be paid more than a school teacher.
> > > No lawyer can hold public office.
> > > Violation of public trust is a capital offense.
> > >
> >
> > What a load of fertilizer.
>
> Lighten up, George ... your sanctimonious preaching fits the day, but not
> the situation.
>
And just what is more important to the future of the Republic than learning?
Your "thinking" is about as light as it gets.
As a long-time college instructor (and even far more of a long-time
wood-working person) I URGE you to leap at the opportunity!
Imagine for only a moment that you would actually be in a position to do
more good for a kid's life in but a single semester than others could /
might / had-but-blew / etc over a lifetime. We NEED more kids who can work
with their hands (constructively) and vocational edu has all but disappeared
from our schools (and not replaced with college-acceptable academics).
It's needed. You have the opportunity of a lifetime that ANY educator would
cry for and ... you _have to ask_????
Do It. Today.
(Please.)
--
-- Steve
www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
"Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have any
>good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught academic
>classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign language dep't),
>but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our wood shop teacher is
>about to retire and they cannot find anyone to replace him. If a
>replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It seems nobody wants to do
>that anymore in this area (just outside LA) While I have never taught shop,
>I have been a hobbiest for most of my adult life, and, if I dare say so
>myself, I am not that bad a wood butcher. I am not, however, a true expert
>or professional. My principal knows me, my work, and my interest in wood
>and asked if next year I would like to take over the wood shop. The present
>wood teacher, and all other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been
>friends for many years and he has offered me all the help I need or want,
>as well as all of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
>
> Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
> could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in hearing
> the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those who have
> been there.
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:51:09 GMT, Glen <[email protected]> wrote:
>I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
>any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
>academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
>language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
>wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
>replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
>seems nobody wants to do that anymore in this area (just outside LA)
>While I have never taught shop, I have been a hobbiest for most of my
>adult life, and, if I dare say so myself, I am not that bad a wood
>butcher. I am not, however, a true expert or professional. My principal
>knows me, my work, and my interest in wood and asked if next year I
>would like to take over the wood shop. The present wood teacher, and all
>other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been friends for many
>years and he has offered me all the help I need or want, as well as all
>of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
>
>Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
>could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in
>hearing the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those
>who have been there.
I think that most wood workers have the general knowledge, but it
takes a special skill to teach..
You have that skill, and a general knowledge of wood working, right?
I'm sure the state and county have guide lines and such, and maybe
required class structure..
IMHO, if you can teach a few kids shop safety and basic wood skills,
and to appreciate wood, you've accomplished quite a bit.. and along
the way, you might create a few sawdust addicts like us..
also, as we all know, the best way to learn is to teach..
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 08:21:40 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, you know, the heft of the hooters and fit of the jeans are, you know,
>after all, the most important qualifications for teaching DIY these days,
>you know.
What cup size is Norm? <G>
Lrrrrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooodddd!!!!!!
Barry
> Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?
Entry level? My mom teaches in OK, and when I graduated from college, I
started out as an engineer making more than her _30 year_ salary, which
means she was making less than 45K.
Entry level there is about 24K, and gas station attendants make about that
much starting out. And that is indeed sad.
I would be a teacher if it wasn't for that nonsense.
>> Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?
Entry level in western PA (Pittsburgh area) is in the high $30s. The district I
work for (not as a teacher however) tops out at just over $80 in 17 years (that
last year is called a "jump step" you go from $58,000 to $80,000 in one fell
swoop). Fully paid medical, dental, vision, life etc. (family coverage is %50
per month, no medical co-pays at all, drugs are $10 generic, $20 name brand).
Job security out the wazoo (you can't get fired short of killing the kid or
having sex with him or her), 193 work days. I still would have a hard time
teaching under today's rules though.
As to folks jumping into teaching, if you already have a degree in the subject
you wish to teach, you might be able to get a teaching certification after 1
year of full time added college. How long it would take someone with a language
degree to get the needed degree and certification to teach "technology
education" is anyones guess.
Dave Hall
David Hall wrote:
> certification after 1 year of full time added college.
Two years. Or about 27 the way I would have to do it. Half an hour every
fifteen weekend.
> How long it would
> take someone with a language degree to get the needed degree and
> certification to teach "technology education" is anyones guess.
Don't need one, that's the whole point! :)
It neatly bypasses the fact that I'm not certified to teach.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
"Mike H." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Here's where I disagree. Teachers have to grade homework, create lesson
> plans, supervise certain after school activities, parent-teacher
> conferences, faculty meetings, etc. I would say that teachers put in just
> as much time per year as a regular 40 hour/week rear-round job. And that
> means that without the holidays & summer vacation, you would see open
> revolt, if not an utter collapse of the work force. Or in other words,
> the
> holidays and summers are simply a well deserved vacation.
Generalizations just don't work in either direction. Deserved by some, but
not all. I can name names of some of the laziest people in the profession.
When school is out, they are DONE. I know these people personally and can
attest to what they do not do.
I appreciate you wanting to stick up for mom, but like any profession or
trade, there are plenty that are just there for the paycheck. A few years
back our teachers got big increases to attract more and better teacher.
What really happened is that a couple of drones that were going to retire
decided to stay and pump up their pensions.
The entire education system sucks, IMO. We pay a lot of money per pupil in
the USA and get far less return than what other countries get. It is a
combination of bloated administration offices, unions that back up low
performers, ACLU, and parents that send their kids to school because the
don't want to have to watch them all day.
Ed
This, of course, is a result of our increasingly urbanized society. We're
just not exposed to the broad range of skills that were so necessary to our
forebears. Used to be that farmers were, in addition to their green thumbs
and animal husbandry skills, experienced at woodworking, metal working,
welding, plumbing, carpentry...you name it...and their kids learned these
things at very young ages. It was a matter of survival.
City dwellers, however, don't have to worry about things like that. They
just call a craftsman...who grossly overcharges for typically shoddy work.
Suburban living is also a contributor to the loss of craftsmanship. In many
communities, the CCRs would prohibit a homeowner from pulling a table saw
into the middle of his driveway and make sawdust. And with 2-hour commutes
in each direction to and from work, who has time for that anyway?
But I digress. I used to be an instructor in a private technical school.
That was 30 years ago and it was hard enough then to maintain order among
students who were paying to be there...not like today's macho teen aged
punks who are constantly posturing, challenging authority and disrupting
classes. There is no way I'd take a job as a high school teacher in this
day and age...especially one in which the potential for serious injury is so
great.
"Rob V" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
(snip)
>
> Isnt it the truth. Its amazing how many of my friends cant seem to fix
the
> simplest things or even try.
(snip)
>
> My pet project is a "survival" course in how water gets into a house and
> out the drain, electricity, and generally how to take care of things at
> home, where an increasingly clueless generation is being taught by one
> nearly as inexperienced.
Isnt it the truth. Its amazing how many of my friends cant seem to fix the
simplest things or even try.
Ie - my buddys soap dispenser by his sink just stopped working - what does
he do - calls a plummer.
To top is off he was pissed b/c the plummer quoted him $125 to change it out
and he paid him.
Just kills me
That "survival" course should be a required course!
>
> "Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
>> any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
>> academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
>> language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
>> wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
>> replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
>> seems nobody wants to do that anymore in this area (just outside LA)
>> While I have never taught shop, I have been a hobbiest for most of my
>> adult life, and, if I dare say so myself, I am not that bad a wood
>> butcher. I am not, however, a true expert or professional. My principal
>> knows me, my work, and my interest in wood and asked if next year I
>> would like to take over the wood shop. The present wood teacher, and all
>> other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been friends for many
>> years and he has offered me all the help I need or want, as well as all
>> of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
>>
>> Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
>> could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in
>> hearing the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those
>> who have been there.
>
>
>If you have the support of the principal and administration, you may avoid
the biggest problem, that of classes overloaded with goof-offs.
The typical guidance dept considers all such "electives" as a dumping ground
for the marginal student.
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well the dream job would be the one at our HS, where the "shop" teacher
also
> teaches science. As I used to say, that's all you need in life - science
> and shop.
>
> If you have the support of the principal and administration, you may avoid
> the biggest problem, that of classes overloaded with goof-offs. Span of
> control is critical in a shop, where things are sharp and or mechanically
> dangerous. If you have the power to keep 'em out or kick 'em out and the
> principal to back you up, you'll have a class where you can put your head
> down and help. The four corners theory of malcontents doesn't work if
they
> have to move around to accomplish a task.
>
> I liked the upper class assistant program to put a junior or senior of my
> choice in class with the young ones. The extra eyes and hands made the
> class much more worthwhile. Your most experienced class is also
responsible
> for most machinery adjustment and cleaning - part of their grade is
> "maintenance" - for which I used to repay by "open shop" after hours once
or
> twice a week. Since they were not bus-dependant, it gave them a couple
> hours of uninterrupted work, and me sharpening time. It could get you in
> Dutch with the rest of the faculty, so be careful as you read your
contract.
> The smaller group of motivated individuals can really turn out some work.
>
> My pet project is a "survival" course in how water gets into a house and
> out the drain, electricity, and generally how to take care of things at
> home, where an increasingly clueless generation is being taught by one
> nearly as inexperienced.
>
> "Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
> > any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
> > academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
> > language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
> > wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
> > replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
> > seems nobody wants to do that anymore in this area (just outside LA)
> > While I have never taught shop, I have been a hobbiest for most of my
> > adult life, and, if I dare say so myself, I am not that bad a wood
> > butcher. I am not, however, a true expert or professional. My principal
> > knows me, my work, and my interest in wood and asked if next year I
> > would like to take over the wood shop. The present wood teacher, and all
> > other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been friends for many
> > years and he has offered me all the help I need or want, as well as all
> > of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
> >
> > Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
> > could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in
> > hearing the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those
> > who have been there.
>
>
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> (Although, everything else aside, I probably can't afford to take the pay
> cut anyway. Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?)
I have no idea what entry level teacher get, but with some time in and the
right degrees, 50k to 60k is about normal. I know of one pulling 64k this
year. This is in CT where the cost of living factors in.
Edwin Pawlowski responds:
>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> (Although, everything else aside, I probably can't afford to take the pay
>> cut anyway. Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?)
>
>I have no idea what entry level teacher get, but with some time in and the
>right degrees, 50k to 60k is about normal. I know of one pulling 64k this
>year. This is in CT where the cost of living factors in.
Starting pay in Silvan's area is probably in the high 20s. He can look forward
to something around 45 to 50 as a high, after nearly 30 years, and a 30 year
retirement for most systems. There are always coaching chores and similar extra
duties--drama teacher?--that add some extra bucks to the paycheck.
I don't know what he makes as a truck driver, but even over-the-road guys have
to really stretch themselves to last 30+ years, and top pay seems to be about
40+ cents per mile (how many miles did you drive today Daddy? No thanks. Those
things look like about as much fun to push 500+ miles per day as a vat of wet
cement). No idea what the trucker's benefits are, either.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
Charlie Self wrote:
> Starting pay in Silvan's area is probably in the high 20s. He can look
> forward to something around 45 to 50 as a high, after nearly 30 years, and
Or less. My wife's cousin got out of school the same time I did, give or
take a couple of years. She's making 60 now, but she's moved all over the
state to get there. She's up in NoVA somewhere now teaching "special" (ie
especially homicidal) students.
> I don't know what he makes as a truck driver, but even over-the-road guys
> have to really stretch themselves to last 30+ years, and top pay seems to
> be about 40+ cents per mile (how many miles did you drive today Daddy? No
Top pay is 60 cents a mile for the union guys, or it used to be. The
company that used to advertise that folded a few years ago. Regular
non-union OTR guys do hover around 40 as the top, and maybe 3,000 miles a
week, I guess. I'm not part of that whole scene.
I earn in the low 30s, exact figure not for worldwide archival. I haven't
had a raise since 1999. It doesn't go as far as it used to, and my
takehome has dwindled by over $100 a week in that time due to inflating
insurance costs. They used to pay 100% of my insurance, but then they
decided to cap what they would pay at whatever they were paying last year
(the year before making this change), and I've had to eat the difference
every year since. They also used to just pay people anyway (salary) when
they got hurt, but one asshole abused that, so they started making us carry
disability insurance, and turning us over to that if we get hurt and have
to sit out. (Although I have never actually had to use it.) They used to
pay for our meals too, until some asshole started eating at Red Lobster
three times a day.
I get my annual pay cut the first of December, right in time for Christmas.
I like the job, relatively speaking, but I don't know how much longer I can
continue to take an effective 7% pay cut every year. I have seen what
happens to those who ask for raises though, so there's no point in going
there. I still make more than people at Wal-Mart. Barely. I could always
go somewhere else.
I don't really want to though. It either involves more time on the road, or
more hours a week working, or both. I sometimes only work 35 hours a week,
and almost never more than 50, and the pay is the same week after week. If
I took a local job with one of the big name freight humper outfits I'd have
to pull 70 week after week, go back to punching a timeclock. If I went
with a more conventional outfit, I'd have to put in the miles to earn the
money, and slow times would come right out of my paycheck. I hate working.
I like leisure. What I have now is a good compromise. Work my ass off as
fast and efficiently as I can, and I earn more time at the house. I am
VERY efficient. Who knew laziness could be such a good motivator? :)
I'm getting really tired of it all around though. The new hours of service
rules are a serious pain in the ass. I lose money every year. Most of
all, I got lucky the first few years, and had easy winters. The winters
lately have not been so easy. Even running exclusively in the south for
the last couple of years, I've still found myself descending into hell more
times than I care to dwell on.
I HATE WINTER! Driving one of these damn things in bad weather is sheer
insanity. It used to be my biggest concern was whether I could get across
town to work. Now that's just the beginning of the ordeal. Winter is the
primary reason why I want to quit doing this shit. Get out before I use up
all my luck. Winter scares the bajeezus out of me. It didn't used to.
I've survived some scary shit, and I have a lot of T-shirts. Too many
T-shirts. I would give my left nut to go back to driving something that
only has four wheels, is only 6" off the ground, and doesn't bend in the
middle.
Problem is I can't figure out how to replace the income, and I sure can't
afford to take a massive pay cut, so I'm really stuck between a rock and a
hard place here. About all I could do is take two full-time jobs, and then
be assured of pulling 16 hours EVERY day.
This shop teacher thing is worth a look, but I probably can't afford to take
the pay cut. <sigh>
> thanks. Those things look like about as much fun to push 500+ miles per
> day as a vat of wet cement). No idea what the trucker's benefits are,
> either.
Most people driving for real companies have excellent benefits. Medical,
dental, vision care, the whole nine yards. Mine have gotten worse year
after year. I only have medical. If I want to cover the family on my
insurance, it's $150 a week, so my wife has to cover herself and the kids.
She has some of the worst medical insurance in the country too, working for
Wal-Mart. Both her insurance and mine are jacking up the premiums every
year, and jacking up the deductible too. $200, $500, $750, $1000, $1000
per person. Eventually it will be pointless to have medical insurance at
all. It just about already is. By the time we meet the deductible, it's
time for it to roll over.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Silvan notes:
>
>I've survived some scary shit, and I have a lot of T-shirts. Too many
>T-shirts. I would give my left nut to go back to driving something that
>only has four wheels, is only 6" off the ground, and doesn't bend in the
>middle.
>
>Problem is I can't figure out how to replace the income, and I sure can't
>afford to take a massive pay cut, so I'm really stuck between a rock and a
>hard place here. About all I could do is take two full-time jobs, and then
>be assured of pulling 16 hours EVERY day.
>
>This shop teacher thing is worth a look, but I probably can't afford to take
>the pay cut. <sigh>
Check the pay. Blacksburg may surprise us both. You seem to be in a spot where
a job choice is soon to be inevitable. To offer unasked for advice, consider
ALL the costs involved. Most VA teaching jobs require you to pay part of your
health insurance, but it amounts, I think, to about $250 monthly and will cover
the whole family. Depends on the deductible, as you know, in part. Remember
that about 8-9 weeks of the mid-year is available to knock together projects to
sell the rest of the year, too. That MIGHT replace some of the income. Hell,
maybe you could drive a truck in the summer!
Teaching has its hazards and stresses. It has its rewards. Pay is rising,
though not as rapidly as it needs to if we're going to replace a half-competent
corps of teachers with a full group of good teachers (aznd keep them).
If you're not (both you and your wife) paying out as much for insurance, you're
not eating on the road daily, you're not subject to the dangers of icy weather
(when schools are closed), whenyou no longer face the stresses of driving an
articulated box on wheels, think about how much more you might enjoy life.
See what the salary is, what the steps are, how seriously they're going to be
on your ass to get a master's, or 30 hours beyond, etc.
Then decide. I wish you luck.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
Charlie Self wrote:
> Check the pay. Blacksburg may surprise us both. You seem to be in a spot
> where a job choice is soon to be inevitable. To offer unasked for advice,
It may be inevitable that I have to go find another employer, but there are
usually three or four pages of driving jobs in the paper, and I could go
get just about any one of them half an hour from now.
Of course, they ALL suck. Which is why I'm still where I am, watching the
ship take on water slowly. It might sink, it might not. It isn't going as
fast or as far as it used to, but any leaks in the hull are pinholes. I
can pretty well definitely stay here until I get out from under all the
debt I'm carrying anyway, which is one of the biggest factors in all of
this. Within four years, I'll be able to do without $900 a month in income
without even missing it. I take that much out of my pocket every month
right now and light it on fire to pay the stupidity tax.
It's just a question of whether I can hold out that long. I'm definitely
not as content as I used to be. Then again, look at the calendar and then
come back in June or July and ask me how malcontent I am.
> know, in part. Remember that about 8-9 weeks of the mid-year is available
> to knock together projects to sell the rest of the year, too. That MIGHT
> replace some of the income. Hell, maybe you could drive a truck in the
> summer!
Truck maybe, projects no. I haven't managed to earn more than about $100
over all these years. People don't want to pay for anything good. They
want it Chinese, they want it crappy, and they want it cheap, cheap, cheap!
> Teaching has its hazards and stresses. It has its rewards.
Yeah, that's the other side of the equation. One reason I never really even
tried to get into teaching languages is because 99.9% of students don't
give a rat's ass about languages. I have tutored and home schooled
students in that category. Teaching people like the assholes I went to
school with is anything but rewarding. There's also Mom's friend who quit
teaching French to go work in a bakery for some trifling pittance, just to
escape with her sanity intact. I know a couple other former foreign
language teachers in a similar boat.
So that's why the shop teacher angle is so intriguing. I honestly have no
idea how much of that I would run into. I think I will look into it for
real though. Nobody has told me I should steer away just because I never
had any shop classes, so that's encouraging. I'm very good at talking a
little experience into a lot. Not lying, but just spreading things out a
little.
> icy weather (when schools are closed), whenyou no longer face the stresses
> of driving an articulated box on wheels, think about how much more you
> might enjoy life.
That's an interesting angle of itself too, Charlie. All the dangers and
scary bits notwithstanding, the trade in the other direction is politics.
Riding all day in an office of one, with no politics, no gossip, no who's
screwing who, no who's gay, and no ladder to climb, and therefore no one to
stomp on your head to try to get higher than you... There's a lot of
bullshit I'd have to take on that I don't currently have to live with. How
much I might enjoy life is a bit of a wash in this scenario. I think I'm
screwed both ways. :)
> See what the salary is, what the steps are, how seriously they're going to
> be on your ass to get a master's, or 30 hours beyond, etc.
I doubt they want a master's for a shop teacher, but if they'll pay the
tuition, I'll get a PhD. The only things stopping me are time, money, and
a sense of futility.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Prometheus wrote:
>>over all these years. People don't want to pay for anything good. They
>>want it Chinese, they want it crappy, and they want it cheap, cheap,
>>cheap!
> That's very true. I dropped off a little bowl I made for my wife
> while she was at work, and she called me up a couple of hours later
> saying that someone offered to buy it- for $3. The wood cost more
> than that! It wasn't a matter of quality, the lady thought it was
My thing was windchimes. I tried to compete with $5 Chinese crap that
looked like crap and sounded like crap. People wanted to pay for quality
alright, and they wanted my stuff. They were willing to pay three times
what the Chinese stuff cost, and give me $15. For something that had $20
worth of materials in it.
I gave my production away and learned my lesson about making sure a market
really exists before tooling up to make something. Also known as making
something just because it's really cool and you can do it does not make it
a practical undertaking.
On the woodworking front, I see a lot of the same kind of thing. At the
venues where my wife sells her stuff, I see people walking around with lots
of $5 pukey ducks, and the people with good stuff, like the hand made
drums, say, putting lots of good stuff back into the trailer at the end of
the day. Shows aren't the only venue for such things, I'll grant you, but
still, it's indicative of the market. Pukey ducks sell. If you don't find
pukey ducks a rewarding direction, then it's really hard to find a market.
Not impossible, but very difficult.
Like these chess boxes I'm working on now. I've only made one so far, but I
can see this as a saleable item. I can see it selling at a good venue for
maybe $150 on a good day. But I have $150 worth of wood, hardware, and
commercially produced chess pieces in this thing, and I spent every bit of
a hundred hours making it, so I need to retail it for about ten times that
to make it worthwhile as a commercial undertaking.
Which is why I just don't worry about trying to make this a commercial
undertaking. I'll find some other way to earn my daily bread.
> That's really sad, but also true. I had six and a half years of
> French courses- one of them at the University, and the numbnuts who
> were in my classes *still* didn't know how to say "hello". But it
> sure was funny watching some of them sit there crosseyed and drool on
> themselves stupidly when they found out that the university prof would
> not speak English, even during office hours... :)
Yes, and on Charlie's other thread that started such hostility, at least one
of the numbnuts I went to school with (numbtits maybe? she was a wimminz)
spoke Spanish about as elegantly as Peggy Hill, and she's teaching now.
The only people in my department who were worth a damn at all were me and a
handful of native speaking foreign exchange students from various places
taking gravy credits. I was the only American-born student in either the
Spanish or French department who could speak either language with any
semblance of fluidity at all.
Notice I did not say "fluency." I'm still not fluent after eight years of
formal Spanish and seven years of formal French. I get by. I make fun of
myself for being a gringo a lot to cover up my flubs, and I ask people to
speak slooooooooowly, so I can figure out what they're saying. I'm not
fluent, and I was the best by a gigantic margin. I guess, yes, one reason
I have never gone too far toward the idea of teaching this stuff is my
realization of just how much further I need to go to truly own either of
these languages. I'm pretty well convinced that only native speakers
should teach foreign languages, and I would be best at teaching English to
Spanish or French speakers.
> Please don't steer away from it. If you don't do it, who will? You
> know the basics, and that's what you need. I really appreciate the
> shop teachers I had it school, and they did make a difference to me,
> even though I didn't realize it at the time.
Well, we'll see. I have a number of steps to take before this even becomes
more than a flight of fancy, but there's real potential here. I think I
might have the right stuff. When we were working at the old Middle School
shop to put together our float for the Christmas parade, I made everybody
find and put on safety glasses. Even the guy who is the connection I'm
talking about exploiting toward this job. :)
It would be hard to replace the old shop teacher as a constant reminder to
safety though. I never had any shop classes, but I still knew of the guy.
We all did. He only had seven fingers.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Silvan writes:
>
>Notice I did not say "fluency." I'm still not fluent after eight years of
>formal Spanish and seven years of formal French. I get by. I make fun of
>myself for being a gringo a lot to cover up my flubs, and I ask people to
>speak slooooooooowly, so I can figure out what they're saying. I'm not
>fluent, and I was the best by a gigantic margin. I guess, yes, one reason
>I have never gone too far toward the idea of teaching this stuff is my
>realization of just how much further I need to go to truly own either of
>these languages. I'm pretty well convinced that only native speakers
>should teach foreign languages, and I would be best at teaching English to
>Spanish or French speakers.
I've always loved Yurpeans who twit Americans for not knowing another language,
when 99% of the French and SPanish types I've met cannot be understood about
92% of the time. The only truly fluent non-native English speakers I've ever
heard have been Dutch and Italian. Figure that one out.
As far as teaching English to native Spanish speakers, that's another
broadening area: ESL, or English as a Second Languge. I think there may have,
may still be, a Bedford opening in that field, though it's a tad far for a
daily drive.
Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill
Charlie Self wrote:
> I've always loved Yurpeans who twit Americans for not knowing another
> language, when 99% of the French and SPanish types I've met cannot be
> understood about 92% of the time. The only truly fluent non-native English
> speakers I've ever heard have been Dutch and Italian. Figure that one out.
Yeah, that's a story in of itself. I'll never forget one particular
exchange, between myself and a Belgian foreign exchange student who was
also working in the language lab. It was the language lab, after all. I
was trying to speak French to her. She told me point blank "Shot zee ell
op and stope booshereenk my langweedge you peeg."
My response started with an F and ended with a U, but come to think of it,
I've never really tried to speak French since, because of this bitch. I've
always been really shy about French, and very reluctant to try to use it
for anything.
> As far as teaching English to native Spanish speakers, that's another
> broadening area: ESL, or English as a Second Languge. I think there may
> have, may still be, a Bedford opening in that field, though it's a tad far
> for a daily drive.
Ah yes. The "brown tide." It has passed us by for the most part here in
Montgomery county, although I did get offered a job as a field supervisor
for horticultural workers for a screaming $7 an hour. I had to pass on
that, as tempting as the prospect of all that money was.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> As far as teaching English to native Spanish speakers, that's another
> broadening area: ESL, or English as a Second Languge. I think there may
have,
> may still be, a Bedford opening in that field, though it's a tad far for a
> daily drive.
ESL is fine for some, but ridiculous for the young and otherwise illiterate.
It has, however, the endorsement of the education profession, as does
"bilingual education," which takes an illiterate and wastes his time
teaching him "frog" in both English and the other language.
The best programs for learning a language are immersion-type, where the
participant doesn't go to the crapper unless he learns how to say it in the
proper language. Sort of like sending a kid to school where people speak
only English....
Wowsy gosh. I guess California _is_ the entire world, eh? We folks back
east still call the programs by the names I used, though whatever the name,
it will not improve them. It also doesn't matter what you call yourself to
get a new "certification" and sinecure. Motion is _not_ necessarily
progress. Folks out in California are so successful with their language
programs that they have to print the ballot in _how_ many languages, even
though only citizens are supposed to vote? Of course, I have to wonder how
many are actually able read it, even then.
I have been in immersion to learn a language and immersion to teach, as well
as conventional classes, and you're barking up the wrong, expensive tree
(OBWW). The way to learn it is to live it - period. Teaching someone
functionally illiterate in both languages to read/write in either is a waste
of time. The education establishment disregards both common sense and the
experience of millions of immigrants - including my father, who knew not a
word of English when the truant officer dragged him off to school - and
tries to sell us new names for failed ideas so they can keep their jobs.
I'm not attacking you, I'm merely suggesting that study, rather than
preaching, might be a better way toward understanding.
"Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> If I may correct you on a few points. Bilingual education was the way
> to go, or so thought the majority of educators, but it is no longer as
> popular among educators as it was. In fact, it is nolonger practiced
> (legally) in public schools in California. There are still, however
> some old timers who continue this model.
>
> ESL is an old term, relpaced by ELD (English Language Development), in
> California at least. The purpose is to teach Englingh to those who do
> not speak English. There are two prongs to an ELD program. One is
> direct language instruction which is similar to what a Spanish class to
> non-Spanish speaking kids. The other is "shelterd instruction." In
> this area the same subject matter is taught, whether it be science,
> math, etc, as in the regular classroom, but the teachers have additional
> training in how to increase meaning into their lessons.
>
> I could go into much more detail on this matter, but I am pretty far OT
> as it is.
>
> I am not trying to attack you, George, I just wanted to give a bit more
> insight into what I do for a living (but hope to change as soon as I
> find out all the credentialling requirements).
>
> Glen
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:06:15 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
|
|Ah yes. The "brown tide." It has passed us by for the most part here in
|Montgomery county, although I did get offered a job as a field supervisor
|for horticultural workers for a screaming $7 an hour. I had to pass on
|that, as tempting as the prospect of all that money was.
Yes, to hear our government tell it, those are the folks that are just
taking jobs that citizens don't want to do: block layers, stucco men,
electricians, plumbers, drug dealers, welfare moms, etc.
George wrote:
>
> ESL is fine for some, but ridiculous for the young and otherwise illiterate.
> It has, however, the endorsement of the education profession, as does
> "bilingual education," which takes an illiterate and wastes his time
> teaching him "frog" in both English and the other language.
>
> The best programs for learning a language are immersion-type, where the
> participant doesn't go to the crapper unless he learns how to say it in the
> proper language. Sort of like sending a kid to school where people speak
> only English....
>
>
If I may correct you on a few points. Bilingual education was the way
to go, or so thought the majority of educators, but it is no longer as
popular among educators as it was. In fact, it is nolonger practiced
(legally) in public schools in California. There are still, however
some old timers who continue this model.
ESL is an old term, relpaced by ELD (English Language Development), in
California at least. The purpose is to teach Englingh to those who do
not speak English. There are two prongs to an ELD program. One is
direct language instruction which is similar to what a Spanish class to
non-Spanish speaking kids. The other is "shelterd instruction." In
this area the same subject matter is taught, whether it be science,
math, etc, as in the regular classroom, but the teachers have additional
training in how to increase meaning into their lessons.
I could go into much more detail on this matter, but I am pretty far OT
as it is.
I am not trying to attack you, George, I just wanted to give a bit more
insight into what I do for a living (but hope to change as soon as I
find out all the credentialling requirements).
Glen
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:10:42 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
|"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|news:[email protected]...
|>
|> As far as teaching English to native Spanish speakers, that's another
|> broadening area: ESL, or English as a Second Languge. I think there may
|have,
|> may still be, a Bedford opening in that field, though it's a tad far for a
|> daily drive.
|
|
|ESL is fine for some, but ridiculous for the young and otherwise illiterate.
|It has, however, the endorsement of the education profession, as does
|"bilingual education," which takes an illiterate and wastes his time
|teaching him "frog" in both English and the other language.
|
|The best programs for learning a language are immersion-type, where the
|participant doesn't go to the crapper unless he learns how to say it in the
|proper language. Sort of like sending a kid to school where people speak
|only English....
My former wife's late uncle (Robert Berrellez, DAGS) before his
retirement from the CI---sorry---ITT, was living in Buenos Aires when
he befriended an orphan who was caddying at a golf course.
Bob moved to Miami and brought the high-school-aged kid with him. When
they arrived in the states, the kid knew zero English. Bob, of
Mexican descent and raised in a Spanish speaking family in a border
town, had gone from a newspaper delivery boy to AP Latin American
reporter and detested bilingual education. He put the kid right into
high school and a year later, the kid and I were having phone
conversations about electronics projects.
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 03:37:29 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
... snip
>It would be hard to replace the old shop teacher as a constant reminder to
>safety though. I never had any shop classes, but I still knew of the guy.
>We all did. He only had seven fingers.
Yeah, that would be an awfully big sacrifice on your part; all for the
sake of a visual object lesson. ;-)
>> know, in part. Remember that about 8-9 weeks of the mid-year is available
>> to knock together projects to sell the rest of the year, too. That MIGHT
>> replace some of the income. Hell, maybe you could drive a truck in the
>> summer!
>
>Truck maybe, projects no. I haven't managed to earn more than about $100
>over all these years. People don't want to pay for anything good. They
>want it Chinese, they want it crappy, and they want it cheap, cheap, cheap!
That's very true. I dropped off a little bowl I made for my wife
while she was at work, and she called me up a couple of hours later
saying that someone offered to buy it- for $3. The wood cost more
than that! It wasn't a matter of quality, the lady thought it was
excellent- she just couldn't understand that a private craftsman is
not a Wal-mart. I've had the same conversation over and over with
various people- I'm still amazed that some folks can get *mad* when
you tell them that something is not for sale at any price, or that if
they feel they can get something cheaper elsewhere, then they should
go elsewhere.
>> Teaching has its hazards and stresses. It has its rewards.
>
>Yeah, that's the other side of the equation. One reason I never really even
>tried to get into teaching languages is because 99.9% of students don't
>give a rat's ass about languages. I have tutored and home schooled
>students in that category. Teaching people like the assholes I went to
>school with is anything but rewarding. There's also Mom's friend who quit
>teaching French to go work in a bakery for some trifling pittance, just to
>escape with her sanity intact. I know a couple other former foreign
>language teachers in a similar boat.
That's really sad, but also true. I had six and a half years of
French courses- one of them at the University, and the numbnuts who
were in my classes *still* didn't know how to say "hello". But it
sure was funny watching some of them sit there crosseyed and drool on
themselves stupidly when they found out that the university prof would
not speak English, even during office hours... :)
>So that's why the shop teacher angle is so intriguing. I honestly have no
>idea how much of that I would run into. I think I will look into it for
>real though. Nobody has told me I should steer away just because I never
>had any shop classes, so that's encouraging. I'm very good at talking a
>little experience into a lot. Not lying, but just spreading things out a
>little.
Please don't steer away from it. If you don't do it, who will? You
know the basics, and that's what you need. I really appreciate the
shop teachers I had it school, and they did make a difference to me,
even though I didn't realize it at the time.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I earn in the low 30s, exact figure not for worldwide archival. I haven't
> had a raise since 1999. It doesn't go as far as it used to, and my
> takehome has dwindled by over $100 a week in that time due to inflating
> insurance costs. They used to pay 100% of my insurance, but then they
> decided to cap what they would pay at whatever they were paying last year
> (the year before making this change), and I've had to eat the difference
> every year since.
The question is not if, but when, to change jobs. Sounds like the company
is slowly going into the dumpster. Do you bail out now or wait until they
die a slow agonizing death? In that same time period I had a couple of
years with no increase, but nothing was taken away. Every company has a bad
year but when the slide for five straight, it is time to take a hard look
around.
On 11 Dec 2004 21:04:03 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>There are always coaching chores and similar extra
>duties--drama teacher?--that add some extra bucks to the paycheck.
Free access to a fully equipped shop can add serious extra bucks to a
check.
He can purchase some good personal hand tools, and do his machining
after school.
Barry
Barry writes:
>
>>There are always coaching chores and similar extra
>>duties--drama teacher?--that add some extra bucks to the paycheck.
>
>Free access to a fully equipped shop can add serious extra bucks to a
>check.
>
>He can purchase some good personal hand tools, and do his machining
>after school.
I'm honestly not sure how the school's insurance company would react to such
use.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
>>Free access to a fully equipped shop can add serious extra bucks to a
>>check.
>>
>>He can purchase some good personal hand tools, and do his machining
>>after school.
>
>I'm honestly not sure how the school's insurance company would react to such
>use.
I'm honestly not sure how "fully stocked" a high school shop class is these
days. :)
Charlie Self wrote:
> I'm honestly not sure how the school's insurance company would react to
> such use.
If you don't get hurt, you don't have to tell them about it. :)
There might not be that much temptation anyway. I haven't seen the shops in
the newest schools, but I have a friend with the keys to everything in the
county, and I've poked around in many of the wood shops at various points,
for various reasons.
It's stuff Keith would drool over at first glance, and then it would make
him cry to see the sad shape it's in.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Silvan wrote:
> Charlie Self wrote:
>
>
>>I'm honestly not sure how the school's insurance company would react to
>>such use.
>
>
> If you don't get hurt, you don't have to tell them about it. :)
>
> There might not be that much temptation anyway. I haven't seen the shops in
> the newest schools, but I have a friend with the keys to everything in the
> county, and I've poked around in many of the wood shops at various points,
> for various reasons.
>
The shop in my school, the one I would take over, is impressive.
Nothing in the shop is older than 14 years (the school opened in 1991).
The TS is Powermatic, one of the scrollsaws is a Hegner the others are
Deltas, as are almost all of the other machines.
As to pay, I would not go down, except that I would lose my dep't chair
supplement, bringing me to about $75g (teaching 5 periods a day). The
current teacher teaches an extra period per day bringing him up to about
$90g.
Glen
> It's stuff Keith would drool over at first glance, and then it would make
> him cry to see the sad shape it's in.
>
On 11 Dec 2004 22:49:10 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>I'm honestly not sure how the school's insurance company would react to such
>use.
Every shop teacher I've ever met used the shop for personal projects.
The same goes for teachers using weight rooms, pools, ice, athletic
fields, kilns, music rooms, etc... I skate and shoot pucks on a
regular basis on a high school rink with a neighbor.
I'm talking about working alone, not bringing hired help in. Lots of
teachers are in school long after school ends, for various reasons.
Barry
> "Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have any
>>good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught academic
>>classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign language dep't),
>>but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our wood shop teacher
>>is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to replace him. If a
>>replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It seems nobody wants to do
>>that anymore in this area (just outside LA) While I have never taught
>>shop, I have been a hobbiest for most of my adult life, and, if I dare say
>>so myself, I am not that bad a wood butcher. I am not, however, a true
>>expert or professional. My principal knows me, my work, and my interest in
>>wood and asked if next year I would like to take over the wood shop. The
>>present wood teacher, and all other shop teachers for that matter, and I
>>have been friends for many years and he has offered me all the help I need
>>or want, as well as all of his plans and jigs. I have until February to
>>decide.
>>
>> Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
>> could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in
>> hearing the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those
>> who have been there.
my wife's middle school (7&8 grades) is in the exact same situation. anyone
looking to transfer into the paradise valley school district in phoenix az?
regards,
charlie
Take a shot.
You will learn much more than you will teach.
That seems to be a rule of thumb for those of us who try and pass on the
knowledge.
Besides, if the interest is so low, you will most likely be instructing in
the basics rather than the advanced stuff.
Good basics are more important to newbies anyway.
Just my humble opinion of course.
Best of luck.
--
Jim
On Valor's side the odds of combat lie.
The brave live glorious or lamented die.
The Wretch who runs from the field of fame,
Meets Death or worse than death, Eternal Shame.
"Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have any
>good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught academic
>classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign language dep't),
>but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our wood shop teacher is
>about to retire and they cannot find anyone to replace him. If a
>replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It seems nobody wants to do
>that anymore in this area (just outside LA) While I have never taught shop,
>I have been a hobbiest for most of my adult life, and, if I dare say so
>myself, I am not that bad a wood butcher. I am not, however, a true expert
>or professional. My principal knows me, my work, and my interest in wood
>and asked if next year I would like to take over the wood shop. The present
>wood teacher, and all other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been
>friends for many years and he has offered me all the help I need or want,
>as well as all of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
>
> Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
> could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in hearing
> the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those who have
> been there.
"Mike H." wrote in message
>
> > Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?
>
> Entry level? My mom teaches in OK, and when I graduated from college, I
> started out as an engineer making more than her _30 year_ salary, which
> means she was making less than 45K.
>
> Entry level there is about 24K, and gas station attendants make about that
> much starting out. And that is indeed sad.
>
> I would be a teacher if it wasn't for that nonsense.
Addressed in my "Modest Proposals for Good Government":
No politician can be paid more than a school teacher.
No lawyer can hold public office.
Violation of public trust is a capital offense.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
Swingman responds:
>"Mike H." wrote in message
>>
>> > Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?
>>
>> Entry level? My mom teaches in OK, and when I graduated from college, I
>> started out as an engineer making more than her _30 year_ salary, which
>> means she was making less than 45K.
>>
>> Entry level there is about 24K, and gas station attendants make about that
>> much starting out. And that is indeed sad.
>>
>> I would be a teacher if it wasn't for that nonsense.
>
>Addressed in my "Modest Proposals for Good Government":
>
>No politician can be paid more than a school teacher.
>No lawyer can hold public office.
>Violation of public trust is a capital offense.
Add to that my corollary: Any politician elected to office must serve a minimum
of two years in prison before taking the oath of office.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
> Add to that my corollary: Any politician elected to office must serve a
minimum
> of two years in prison before taking the oath of office.
LOL ... Actually, I think that was my Dad's philosophy on raising kids. I
remember getting a whipping _before_ we got somewhere, as an example of what
it would be like if I misbehaved.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
Swingman responds:
>
>"Charlie Self" wrote in message
>
>> Add to that my corollary: Any politician elected to office must serve a
>minimum
>> of two years in prison before taking the oath of office.
>
>LOL ... Actually, I think that was my Dad's philosophy on raising kids. I
>remember getting a whipping _before_ we got somewhere, as an example of what
>it would be like if I misbehaved.
Damn. I remember that now. And it didn't work too well.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
Sounds like a dream job to me :)
"Glen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have any
>good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught academic
>classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign language dep't),
>but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our wood shop teacher is
>about to retire and they cannot find anyone to replace him. If a
>replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It seems nobody wants to do
>that anymore in this area (just outside LA) While I have never taught shop,
>I have been a hobbiest for most of my adult life, and, if I dare say so
>myself, I am not that bad a wood butcher. I am not, however, a true expert
>or professional. My principal knows me, my work, and my interest in wood
>and asked if next year I would like to take over the wood shop. The present
>wood teacher, and all other shop teachers for that matter, and I have been
>friends for many years and he has offered me all the help I need or want,
>as well as all of his plans and jigs. I have until February to decide.
>
> Since I know several of you are experienced in this area, I am sure I
> could benefit on hearing your perspective. I am most interested in hearing
> the plusses and minuses of teaching HS wood classes from those who have
> been there.
I think my high school shop teacher had one goal. Blood splatter
reduction. I do not recall any instruction at all in 2 years of wood
shop.
My college instructor introduced the class to the tools, told us not
to drop stuff, and do not use your foot to stop a sharp chisel from
hitting the floor. He told use at the start there would be no power
sanders available and no stain was allowed. The next thing he had us
do was sketch a project and then draw it to scale. Buy some wood and
start building. He had helpers there to work with the less skilled.
Helpers are a good thing but in high school the wood nerds might not
get the respect they deserve.
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>Glen wrote:
>
>> I would like some input from some of you who teach wood shop (or have
>> any good insight into the field)in the public schools. I have taught
>> academic classes for about 30 years (current chair of the foreign
>> language dep't), but I have never taught a shop class of any kind. Our
>> wood shop teacher is about to retire and they cannot find anyone to
>> replace him. If a replacement cannot be found, the program dies. It
>
>This is kind of interesting. I'm not a teacher, and have been driving a
>truck for most of the years since I majored in foreign languages, but I've
>always had it in the back of my mind that one day I might decide to go back
>to school for a bit and get trained up to teach high school. (The politics
>of it have kept me away. I don't know any happy teachers in these parts.
>Plus I was originally on a PhD track, and didn't take any teacher training,
>so I'm not certified.)
>
>Unsurprisingly, I have always thought in terms of teaching language classes.
>Then just a bit ago a friend of mine told me the local school system is
>desperate for a shop teacher, and I should put in for it. It's an
>intriguing notion. I could probably just about get the job based on this
>friend's recommendation, but I'm not at all sure I have the right stuff to
>do the job.
>
>I'm self-taught. I've never had a class from any store or school. Could I
>teach shop? What do they even teach in shop class? I'm reading this
>thread with keen interest.
>
>(Although, everything else aside, I probably can't afford to take the pay
>cut anyway. Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?)
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:40:38 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> (Although, everything else aside, I probably can't afford to take the pay
>> cut anyway. Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?)
>
>I have no idea what entry level teacher get, but with some time in and the
>right degrees, 50k to 60k is about normal. I know of one pulling 64k this
>year. This is in CT where the cost of living factors in.
>
Entry is 28-32k in most of CT, maybe more in some really rich
communities, less at parochial schools.
Barry
Barry writes:
>>
>>I have no idea what entry level teacher get, but with some time in and the
>>right degrees, 50k to 60k is about normal. I know of one pulling 64k this
>>year. This is in CT where the cost of living factors in.
>>
>
>Entry is 28-32k in most of CT, maybe more in some really rich
>communities, less at parochial schools.
Ew. Not great for the area, when they're getting very close to that here, where
taxes and living expenses are much lower.
Age is catching up to me. I once was engaged to a girl teaching school in the
Croton-Harmon school district in Westchester County, NY. IIRC, she started at
about $100 or $110 a week, say $5400 a year. She was originally from CT, and I
think moved back there.
NY had then, and may still, all sorts of adjustments for education to add to
the salary.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:56:38 -0500, "Rumpty" <[email protected]>
wrote:
|>If you have the support of the principal and administration, you may avoid
|the biggest problem, that of classes overloaded with goof-offs.
|
|The typical guidance dept considers all such "electives" as a dumping ground
|for the marginal student.
No kidding. And if the whole school is marginal.....
A former coworker has been teaching electronics courses part time at
the local community college for years. (I did the same a number of
years ago) When he retired he became more of a full-timer but was
never a tenured type.
When the electronics instructor of a local high school was called up
from the Army reserves a number of other high school teachers tried to
fill the slot. They went through several of them before approaching
the community college for an instructor.
After several weeks of bureaucratic bumbling, trying to determine
whether a white guy was qualified to teach in this "magnet school", my
friend reported for duty.
Always one with a sense of humor, he sent me an email a few days later
and said that he would probably be leaving soon because of a murder---
either his or one that he committed.
Fortunately, he quit before that happened.
"George" wrote in message
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> >
> > Addressed in my "Modest Proposals for Good Government":
> >
> > No politician can be paid more than a school teacher.
> > No lawyer can hold public office.
> > Violation of public trust is a capital offense.
> >
>
> What a load of fertilizer.
Lighten up, George ... your sanctimonious preaching fits the day, but not
the situation.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
On 12 Dec 2004 06:56:51 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>3. Less work. Teachers work as hard, they just don't work as often.
>Assuming a 40-hour work week, a teacher works 1440 hours a year, versus
>2000 hours (36 weeks versus 50) for a "regular" job.
Maybe.
Some work as many or more hours as any other job. Homework needs to
be corrected, planning needs to be done, etc... Summers are spent
learning the new fashionable curriculum of the year, selected by
politicians. I know some teachers that seem to live at the job.
Others don't, like my gym teacher neighbor.
Be careful with generalizations. <G>
Barry
> I would like to speak up here. My grandmother, mother, aunt and sister
> are all educators
My mom is a teacher, and my wife used to teach before she realized _it
wasn't worth it_, and my cousin is a teacher. But as a disclaimer, it's
still just anecdotal evidence from the both of us.
> I think that teachers do okay money-wise, and here's why:
> 1. GOOD retirement plan
For the most part, I'll agree.
> 2. Good, relatively inexpensive benefit package
I'll go along with that one, too.
> 3. No nights, holidays, weekends, etc.
This one seems like a dream, eh?
> 3. Less work. Teachers work as hard, they just don't work as often.
> Assuming a 40-hour work week, a teacher works 1440 hours a year, versus
> 2000 hours (36 weeks versus 50) for a "regular" job.
Here's where I disagree. Teachers have to grade homework, create lesson
plans, supervise certain after school activities, parent-teacher
conferences, faculty meetings, etc. I would say that teachers put in just
as much time per year as a regular 40 hour/week rear-round job. And that
means that without the holidays & summer vacation, you would see open
revolt, if not an utter collapse of the work force. Or in other words, the
holidays and summers are simply a well deserved vacation.
> I'm not saying that teachers make enough money.
That's what it sounds like.
>If we want well-educated kids, we need well-paid teachers.
You get what you pay for. And I know a number of engineers who would _love_
to be teachers if it weren't for the "abysmally low" pay. And I guarantee
you they would know what they were talking about up at the chalk board.
So I'm telling you that if there was a substantial increase in teacher's
pay, you would get droves of much more knowledgeable people teaching these
classes (or at least in the realm of science & math). And I would add that
the best math/science teachers I ever had started out in the engineering
industry. But the only reason they started teaching was because of a
"missionary mindset".
> To Glen, I say go for it.
One thing my mother has said is that it can be extremely rewarding in the
sense that you get to know some wonderful kids. But if you get a class full
of screw-offs, and on top of that a principle that does not support the
teachers and cowers before "PC" parents, get ready for some stress. That is
why my wife walked away.
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:39:12 -0700, "Steve" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>As a long-time college instructor (and even far more of a long-time
>wood-working person) I URGE you to leap at the opportunity!
>
>Imagine for only a moment that you would actually be in a position to do
>more good for a kid's life in but a single semester than others could /
>might / had-but-blew / etc over a lifetime. We NEED more kids who can work
>with their hands (constructively) and vocational edu has all but disappeared
>from our schools (and not replaced with college-acceptable academics).
Agreed as per previous post. And it's not just one kid's life,
either. I had a friend in HS who went on to be a carpenter based on
his shop classes, and I've been a carpenter and metalworker for my
entire adult life. If it wasn't for shop, he'd probably be stacking
groceries, and I'd probably be in prison. Instead, we're both useful
members of the community. Another one of the guys I knew went on to
be a shop teacher in Tokyo. Hell, shop classes make a big difference
in a lot of men's lives, especially when you don't have much to look
up to at home.
>It's needed. You have the opportunity of a lifetime that ANY educator would
>cry for and ... you _have to ask_????
>
>Do It. Today.
>
>(Please.)
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> Generalizations just don't work in either direction. Deserved by some, but
> not all.
You can say that again. My wife had to work with a real doozie. She
supposedly had all this "tenure", but some of the stories my wife told about
the things she had done/said in the one year she taught was disturbing.
> I appreciate you wanting to stick up for mom
I guess I do have a soft spot for her in my heart.
> The entire education system sucks, IMO. We pay a lot of money per pupil
in
> the USA and get far less return than what other countries get. It is a
> combination of bloated administration offices, unions that back up low
> performers, ACLU, and parents that send their kids to school because the
> don't want to have to watch them all day.
Now you're preachin' to the choir. I know we are spending more on education
than we ever have, but somehow I don't think the money is going where it
ought to be going.