Amount of lighting

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 20:25:52 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>RE: Subject
>
>It is absolutely amazing all the B/S to relight a 2 car garage, quasi
>whore house (stippled ceiling), maybe workshop.
>

He called it a stippled ceiling - my best guess is it is rough-coat,
or sand-coat plaster. My whole garage is finished that way. Ceiling
and walls.

I'd pretty well agree with the rest.

I had good luck putting up fixtures in my wife's stained glass room
using lighting design info found here:

http://www.lithonia.com/Resources.html

It's been a couple years ago, I think the Photometric viewer is the
program you want, along with data files for the type of fixture you
want to use.

I placed fixtures in the center of her 14'x20' room. The room is
bright, but there are some "soft" shadows when working along the wall.
Try to keep your bench lighting between you and the wall to prevent
shadows when leaning over your work.

I'd use the 5000K bulbs for a white light. I used the 6000k in hopes
of better color rendition, but it makes the room look kind of blue.

Ceiling lights are not a clearance issue for the electrical panel
unless you plan to hang from the ceiling while working on the panel.
The workbench in front of the panel could be an issue. Keep it
mobile.


>Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
>However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
>web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb!
>Don't want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K or
>6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>
>I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
>the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
>walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
>I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
>satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>
>I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. What
>would you change?
>
>Thanks,
>Bill

Bill wrote:
> On 12/15/2010 8:55 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> To me, conduit properly hung would simply look like conduit properly
>> hung.
>
> Yes, I'll get more flexibility regarding clamp placement too, and that
> of my boxes.

Code dictates clamp placement.

>
> BTW, I saw an "offset connnector" in a book that may eliminate my need
> for an EMT bender. At about 1.50/each (on Amazon), there is no
> apparent cost savings though. Perhaps they are cheaper by the bag.

The store bought offsets work perfectly fine - for the rookies...

>
> Thank you (and Larry) for not shooting down my (Lew's) design idea.
>

Not really shooting down Lew's ideas. Just adding a thought. Lew's
thoughts were based on one thing, mine on another.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances
> of the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it
> to satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>

You don't need to worry about your shop lights being inside of the 36"
workspace around your panel. That workspace defines unobstructed floor and
wall space.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> RE: Subject
>>
>> It is absolutely amazing all the B/S to relight a 2 car garage, quasi
>> whore house (stippled ceiling), maybe workshop.
>
>
> I've only see a couple whore houses - overseas at that - but I don't
> recall stippled ceilings. Is that common?

Generally speaking - you wouldn't notice...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:56:22 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M wrote:
>>>
>>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>>> on the task lighting.
>>
>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>
>Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
>occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
>it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this time.
> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input folks
>have generously provided to me.

OMG, don't even think about NOT putting lights above the door, Bill!
It will be closed 99% of the time (keeping noise from your neighbors
if nothing else) and you'll want that light without heat, cold, or
gusts of wind, on dark days, early in the morning (layout/glueups and
assembly only?), and after sundown.

Ayup, it's time to start cuttin' into that drywall if you didn't wire
for the entire ceiling. Add that switch while you're at it. 3 rows of
3 fixtures with 2 rows of 2 in between them, switched for even and odd
rows. 3' spacing between rows instead of 4', or go 2' from walls and
keep the 4' row spacing.

---- ---- ----
---- ---- (door side)
---- ---- ----
---- ----
---- ---- ----

It's closer to Lew's modeling (way too much, IMHO) but it's switchable
to avoid the need for sunglasses. Pure white EGGSHELL paint is the
perfect mix for reflection without glare or thrown shadows.


>Good thoughtful comments on the task lighting above. Not exactly sure
>how to take them into consideration, but doing so seems like the right
>thing to do. Still homework to do on this..more modeling. One good
>thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I set
>aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few more.

You'll intuitively know when and where to add task lighting. Drill
presses are notoriously lacking in light, so that's one area. Mills
are, too. Extra light is needed inside a bowl when you're on a lathe,
etc. A strip light over the back of the bench can be handy for
assembly and markup. Your eyes, your call.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:36:55 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 3:47 pm, Larry Jaques<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:10:40 -0500, Bill<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/2/2010 8:23 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 02:02:06 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I had to move a few bit to accommodate obstacles (like garage
>>>>>>> door opener). The luminaires with electronic ballasts
>>>>>>> featuring "instant start" and less than 10% THD are about $40
>>>>>>> each--lamps extra.
>>>>
>>>>>> Total harmonic distortion in fluors? New one on me.
>>>>
>>>>> Wikipedia says 1% THD is supposed to be inaudible to the human
>>>>> ear. "Standard" (Lithonia) electronic ballasts are< 20% THD
>>>>> "Instant on and Rapid start" electronic ballast by Lithonia are< 10%
>>>>> THD.
>>>>
>>>> So they're saying that these babies HUM LIKE HELL, or what?
>>>> WTF is an audio distortion figure doing on a light fixture?!?
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't get me started. THD is a useless spec. It 's like a single
>>> number indicating impurities in ice cream. Some impurities are
>>> straw, some are bat shit.
>>>
>>> 'Even order' harmonics are much easier to put up with than 'odd
>>> order' (not related to the fundamental note) harmonics. (Please, all
>>> you musicians and psycho-acousticians keep your shirts on, I know it
>>> is an over simplification.)
>>> Even order harmonics is how we tell instruments apart, odd order
>>> is ..is.. like..Celine Dijon (without AutoTune.)
>>
>>
>> THD is not so much about accoustics as it is about "dirty power".
>> Low TDH ballasts are becoming much more common in
>> industrial/commercial lighting applications (specifically those with
>> 3 phase power)
>>
>> according to ITS Intertek Testing Services (Boxborough, MA)
>>
>> Power line harmonics is just one of the many power quality issues
>> that arise with public utilities. Effectively, current harmonics
>> represent a distortion of the normal sine wave provided by the
>> utility. When a product such as an SCR switched load or a switching
>> power supply distorts the current, harmonics at multiples of the
>> power line frequency are generated. Two significant consequences
>> arise as a result of harmonic generation. First, because of finite
>> impedances of power lines, voltage variations are generated that
>> other equipment on the line must tolerate. Second, when generated in
>> a three-phase system, harmonics may cause overheating of neutral
>> lines. Power line harmonics are generated when a load draws a non-linear
>> current from a sinusoidal voltage. The harmonic component is an
>> element of a Fourier series which can be used to define any periodic
>> waveshape. The harmonic order or number is the integral number
>> defined by the ratio of the frequency of the harmonic to the
>> fundamental frequency (e.g., 150 Hz is the third harmonic of 50 Hz;
>> n = 150/50). A second harmonic is therefore two times the
>> fundamental frequency of the supply line volt current. If the supply
>> voltage had been generated by an ideal source (zero impedance), the
>> current distortion would have little effect on the supply voltage
>> sine wave. However, because a power system has a finite impedance,
>> the current distortion caused by a nonlinear load creates a
>> corresponding voltage distortion in the supply lines. This voltage
>> distortion can subsequently disrupt operation of other sensitive
>> equipment connected to the same line. Voltage distortion can also
>> cause motors operating on the line to overheat
>>
>
> The only thing I can add to that is that really high THD can cause a
> fire (really)!
>
> Bill

You guys are all really screwed up. Please explain to me how a really high
The Home Depot can cause any of these concerns. Boy, sometimes...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Close to 100 posts, most totally crap.
>
> IES recommendations for a machine shop/wood shop call for 100 foot
> candles maintained.
>
> Using 2 lamp fixtures, approximately 19 fixtures are required for 100 FC
> maintained.

I agree with the point that it is tough to get enough light for a shop.

I would say that he should check out the high output 8 foot fixtures,
though. It is amazing how much light they put out. It may be more
economical to go that way.
--
Jim in NC

On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 15:26:51 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> What is the purpose of the furring strips, Bill? Electronic ballasts
>> don't get hot, the ceiling is flat, and the fixtures are flat. Butt
>> 'em and forget 'em.
>
>Temperature of attached garage varies between about 25F and 110F, and

Jesus H. Christ, Bill.

Didn't you install -insulation- before covering the walls with
drywall? That temp swing is dismal!


>humidity varies too. I know most expansion/contraction occurs between
>the annular rings, but some also occurs along the grain too. Shouldn't
>one leave space for it? Assume 6' to 8' std onebyfour lumber. This
>looks like something I should be able to look up in a table (maybe
>someone has a link handy).

GollyGeeWhiz! I've never seen grain on metal fixtures or drywall. ;)

Again I ask: why install furring strips at all?

P.S: Standard furring strips are 1"x2"x8' and no gap is needed. 1x4 is
El Cheapo baseboard.

--
Know how to listen, and you will
profit even from those who talk badly.
-- Plutarch

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:53:48 -0500, knuttle
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/30/2010 9:29 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> On 11/30/2010 7:57 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:56:22 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>>>>>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>>>>>> on the task lighting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>>>>> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
>>>>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>>>>
>>>> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
>>>> occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
>>>> it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this time.
>>>> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input folks
>>>> have generously provided to me.
>>>
>>> OMG, don't even think about NOT putting lights above the door, Bill!
>>> It will be closed 99% of the time (keeping noise from your neighbors
>>> if nothing else) and you'll want that light without heat, cold, or
>>> gusts of wind, on dark days, early in the morning (layout/glueups and
>>> assembly only?), and after sundown.
>>
>> Ed Zachary! I have lights above my door as well, and I use them all the
>> time (when the door is shut). Just be sure to put them on a separate
>> switch so you can turn them off when the door is open.
>>
>
>Does any one no of a switch that could be put in the garage door opener
>that would allow the lights to work on the normal switch when the door
>is down, but turn them off the lights above the door when the door goes up?
>
>If so how would it be wired?

I forgot to ask: How often do you want both the door open -and- the
lights on? It wouldn't seem to be necessary very often.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

Morgans wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> BTW, I saw an "offset connnector" in a book that may eliminate my
>> need for an EMT bender. At about 1.50/each (on Amazon), there is no
>> apparent cost savings though. Perhaps they are cheaper by the bag.
>
> Bill, you really NEED a conduit bender. Rally, two, 1/2" and a
> 3/4". It is another skill to learn and master that will give you
> and people like you (us) a good feeling of satisfaction. It really
> isn't all that hard, and you will use it again, I guarantee.

Especially after you compare a successful bend to the pile of kinks laying
over in the corner...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
> joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with
> SketchUp!
> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to
> add. Please see my two jpeg's:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at
> my web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb!
> Don't want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K
> or 6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>
> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances
> of the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it
> to satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>
> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. What
> would you change?

First of all, I'd forget about 64ths of an inch when figuring where to put
lights. In fact, I'd forget about *any* fraction :)

Secondly, I'd draw lines dividing the entire shop area into quarters both
ways. That gives you four boxes. Divide each into quarters. That gives you
16 little boxes.

Thirdly, I'd put double 40" fluorescent fixtures more or less centered on
the line intersections along each long side of the shop. That gives you six
fixtures - 12 bulbs - illuminating the entire area pretty evenly. I'd use
either two or three switches thusly...
END
CENTER
END
or
SIDE
SIDE

IMO, it can be useful to recess the fixtures; i.e., next to rather than on
the trusses/rafters.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Ecnerwal wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In addition to the ones round the wall I have several fixed to the
>> ceiling down the centre which are useful for portable power tools.
>> If you can reach them, these would be useful in your situation as
>> you have a bigger area to cover and parts would be further from the
>> wall requiring long leads which you could trip over.
>
> And if you can't reach them, you hang cords (with proper strain
> reliefs) that are higher than your head, but in reach of your arms.
> Very useful.

Even better if you make them so they can travel by hanging them in loops -
each in a traveler - from a ceiling mounted curtain fixture...the "C" shaped
ones. Coil cord at the end provides strain relief and keeps them out of the
way.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Bill wrote:> One good
> thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I set
> aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few more.

Good move. The cheapo, open, shop type fixtures work just fine.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Bill wrote:
> On 11/30/2010 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Bill wrote:> One good
>>> thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I
>>> set aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few
>>> more.
>>
>> Good move. The cheapo, open, shop type fixtures work just fine.
>>
>
> You mean the ones with the reflectors/wings?

Those would work but I was thinking of the ones that are a shallow metal box
holding two (or one) tube, ballast is inside the box. They just screw to
the ceiling. Like these...
http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Indoor-Lighting-Industrial-Shop-Lighting-Strip-Fluorescents/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg4Zbvm3/R-100148706/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
> occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
> it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this
> time.
> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input
> folks
> have generously provided to me.
>

*snip*

What you need is a new garage door with windows in it. Put your lights
above the windows and they'll shine through! :-)

You can also cover the windows with blinds hinged at the top. When the
door opens, the blinds will uncover the windows and the light still can
shine through. :-)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Yes, I will. It's just that getting electricity to that precise spot
> isn't as simple as it may seem on the Internet! : )
>
You can always run some romex in metal conduit on the outside of the wall.
It doesn't look all that sexy. But is is often done in shops. Not much
mess with that approach. Just find the wood behind the drywall to attach
the conduit. Conduit attaches easily to the outlet boxes. Lights and
outlets can them be added to the outlet boxes.

[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I'd put in lots of light - but "split density" - half of each light,
> or every second light, on one switch, the other half on another switch
> so you can have enough light to move around and do non-vision-critical
> stuff with reduced lighting cost, and full bright light when you need
> it.
> With dual ballast 4 lampers put the inners on one ballast (and
> switch) and the outers on the second. Primary lighting would use the
> outer tubes, full lighting all 4.

My garshop has sets of lights on separate switches. Sometimes I'll be
working somewhere else and leave a light on so I can see to get tools
without having to walk all the way around to the front door and turn the
lights on.

It's really nice when the weather is poor. I can cut through the garage
rather than go around it.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

RE: Subject

It is absolutely amazing all the B/S to relight a 2 car garage, quasi
whore house (stippled ceiling), maybe workshop.

Close to 100 posts, most totally crap.

IES recommendations for a machine shop/wood shop call for 100 foot
candles maintained.

Using 2 lamp fixtures, approximately 19 fixtures are required for 100
FC maintained.

Given the geometry of the room and fixtures, 19 fixtures would be
difficult to maccomplish.

16 fixtures gives a good fit and still provides 71-72 FC maintained.

Run 1 x 4 x 24 ft furring strips equally spaced on 5 ft centers,
nailing or screwing thru drywall into ceiling joists. (4 runs)

Prime and paint when finished to match whore house ceiling.

(Since these furring strips are 30" from the side wall, they will miss
the overhead garage door tracks by at least 12" on each side.)

Mount 4 fixtures directly to furring strips with screws on 5 ft
centers leaving 2-1/2 space at beginning and end of runs and 12"
between for the 3/4" EMT.

Install 1 ft lengths of 3/4 EMT (Thin Wall Conduit) between fixtures.

Pull 12-3 /W/ ground THHN (Blk, Red, White, Green) for each run (L1,
L2, N, G).

Stagger fixture wiring as follows:

Row 1: L1, L2, L1, L2
Row 2: L2, L1, L2, L1
Row 3: L1, L2, L1, L2
Row 4: L2, L1, L2, L1

The above uses two (2), 1P-20A c'bkrs and provides two levels of
lighting, 50% & 100%.

At this point, two (2) wall switches can be added so the c'bkrs do not
have to be cycled.

Don't sweat covering fixtures with the garage door.

At most, two (2) fixtures get covered, but you still get some diffused
light from them.

Enough bull shit already.

Spend a few bucks, you can't take it with you.

Time for the next job.

Lew

Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> RE: Subject
>>
>> It is absolutely amazing all the B/S to relight a 2 car garage, quasi
>> whore house (stippled ceiling), maybe workshop.
>
>
> I've only see a couple whore houses - overseas at that - but I don't
> recall stippled ceilings. Is that common?

Hard to say. Most patrons are facing the other way.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Morgans" wrote:

> I agree with the point that it is tough to get enough light for a
> shop.
>
> I would say that he should check out the high output 8 foot
> fixtures, though. It is amazing how much light they put out. It
> may be more economical to go that way.
--------------------------------------
The room is simply to small (20 x 24) to try to shoe horn in 8 ft
fixtures.

You are also faced with a low mounting height, less than 7 ft, which
makes obtaining uniformity with HO lamps very difficult.

BTW, fixture mounting height is defined as actual fixture mounting
height less 36", normal bench height.

Lew

"Bill" wrote:

> At 24' each, they may cost me a few bucks too. I have to add them to
> the material list.

#2 common 1x4 x 96 furring strips, expensive?

That gives new meaning to the word "expensive.

Mount furring strips with 3" deck screws, junction boxes and fixtures
with #14 x 1"
pan head, coarse thread sheet metal screws fitted with a 1/4" flat
washer.

Drill a 3/16" pilot hole for #14 screws.

Only a masochist would drive nails overhead these days.

Lew

On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 02:18:22 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:19:28 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> I'd put in lots of light - but "split density" - half of each light,
>>> or every second light, on one switch, the other half on another switch
>>> so you can have enough light to move around and do non-vision-critical
>>> stuff with reduced lighting cost, and full bright light when you need
>>> it.
>>
>> Yabbut, Bill doesn't want to tear up any fresh drywall and had only
>> planned on wiring half his shop ceiling to begin with! I'm hoping he
>> reconsiders both options as absolutely necessary to his eventual
>> happiness.
>
>Yeah, the lights you suggested today--above the garage door, will
>require a separate switch, as well as half of the others new ones (the
>way I see it). I'm not afraid of cutting drywall. I'm just not going to
>cut it in haste. The more I think about it, the more I think a little
>cleverness in using my 1 new lighting cable that I have could go a long
>way on this... Maybe the switch that it's on will become a "master"
>switch. Unfortunately, my new insulation in the walls makes adding new
>wall switches a "pain".

Not with a shiny new fishing kit, it doesn't.


>This just reinforces the notion that learning processes like this are
>circular in nature.

When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout?


>I just happen to have 3 fluorescent fixtures on short chains (4100K
>bulbs, I believe).

Yeah, most are.


>One of them is portable.

Zipcord and male connectors will make the others that way in a jiffy.


>In the meantime I may
>experiment with different bulbs and see what I can learn about light
>density.

Goodonya, mate.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Don't want to blast my self out.

Hmmm, don't think that's likely :-)

I have a 16ft x 8ft garage as my workshop, main lighting is four 48", 58W
fluorescent fittings running lengthwise. Walls and ceiling are all painted
white. In addition there's a 100W incandescent spot in an adjustable
fitting aimed at my vice.

The other end of the bench there's a large circular, illuminated,
magnifying lamp on an "anglepoise" type arrangement. Apart from it's use
when critical marking out (metalwork mainly) when raised up it can provide
more general "Task lighting". This has a "G" clamp like fixing and can be
moved from its present position, clamped to the end of the bench towards
the back.

Fixed to the underside of the 12" wide shelf, which runs the full length
of the wall, over the bench, at this same end of the bench, is a 20W
halogen spotlight in an adjustable fitting. This can either be positioned
to throw light forward onto the end of the bench or swivelled through 90
deg to direct light onto my X1 milling machine.

If I turn round from facing my bench, I find myself facing my C3 minilathe
against the other wall, which has a 60W incandescent spotlight in an
anglepoise fitting clamped to the tailstock end of its bench. This lamp,
when rotated through 180 deg will throw additional light on my router
table.

In addition to all this I have a 60W incandescent spot in a "lead lamp".
This has a strong spring clip and can be used anywhere in the shop, though
it is normally positioned to aim light at the table of my drill press -
which is next to my mill and also throws some light on that.

In your situation, I'd certainly be adding a lot more 4ft fluorescents

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I enjoyed the "tour" of your shop! From your post, and others, it's
> apparent that "systems" of lighting evolve. I don't want to be an energy
> hog, so I'd prefer lighting systems that I can use in a discretionary
> way (compared to ::INSTANT-ON::).

Well, in my case, only the fluorescents are normally switched on, all the
other lights have individual, local, switches and are used as and when
needed. The two fixed spotlights I mentioned are ultimately controlled by
the main lighting switch but the anglepoise lamps are all plugged into
wall sockets.

> I think I'll begin by illuminating what I regard as the main part of my
> work area and take it from there. I intend to power the lights using
> ordinary plugs into new 2 duplex outlets (which will be subservient to
> 1 wall switch), so my configuration will be reasonably adjustable.

Ah yes, outlets, you'll need lots of those - always more than you think.
In addition to the ones round the wall I have several fixed to the ceiling
down the centre which are useful for portable power tools. If you can
reach them, these would be useful in your situation as you have a bigger
area to cover and parts would be further from the wall requiring long
leads which you could trip over.

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
> occupied by the electric "garage door".

Ah yes, that problem!

We are the second occupiers of our house and originally the builders
installed an "up and over" wooden garage door.

When I finally grew tired of trying to repair it, in fact it reached a
point when I think it was beyond repair, I made myself a pair of
"conventional" side opening doors and gained myself a lot of extra space.

The original door was secured by a bolt and padlock down at the bottom
right and the handle was at ground level too. I now have a nice handle,
catch and mortice lock at elbow level - no more bending down to open the
door.

The new doors keep out the weather and draughts better too.

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

In article <[email protected]>,
Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lobby Dosser wrote:
> > "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> RE: Subject
> >>
> >> It is absolutely amazing all the B/S to relight a 2 car garage, quasi
> >> whore house (stippled ceiling), maybe workshop.
> >
> >
> > I've only see a couple whore houses - overseas at that - but I don't
> > recall stippled ceilings. Is that common?

> Generally speaking - you wouldn't notice...

If the most interesting thing is the ceiling, you should ask for your
money back

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 12/02/10 10:08 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

>> You guys are all really screwed up. Please explain to me how a
>> really high The Home Depot can cause any of these concerns. Boy,
>> sometimes...
> You haven't seen some of the really high Hope Depot employees?

You have to get THD in there. (The Home Depot...)
xis

tiredofspam wrote:

> you can always mount your wires externally to sheetrock. Depending on
> code you may require a conduit, or you may not.
>

Huh?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Nice drawing using skethup. Where did you get the bandsaw ,workbench and
tablesaw? Did you make them yourself or download a library?

As far as lights, I agree with quartering your layout.

I have boxes that have 3 bulbs. I put four in my hand tool area, None
directly over the bench.
I put them offset to both sides .. to eliminate shadows. I also use
swing lights on all my benches. I find it more helpful to have direct
light where I need it. I find these at garage sales and fix them up.
Sometimes you get a brand new one for $1... All my tools have mounts..
My sanding station, router table, workbench, sanders, scroll saw,

I try to avoid direct overhead lighting knowing my head will block out
the light when bending over. My tablesaw has 2 overhead boxes, one on
each side of the blade and toward the outfeed table to avoid my own shadow.



On 11/29/2010 2:34 AM, Bill wrote:
> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
> joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with SketchUp!
>
> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to add.
> Please see my two jpeg's:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
> web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb! Don't
> want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K or 6000K
> fluorescent bulbs.
>
> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
> the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the walls
> will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete. I'm
> going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
> satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>
> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. What
> would you change?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:40:02 -0800, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:19:28 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I'd put in lots of light - but "split density" - half of each light,
>>or every second light, on one switch, the other half on another switch
>>so you can have enough light to move around and do non-vision-critical
>>stuff with reduced lighting cost, and full bright light when you need
>>it.
>
>Yabbut, Bill doesn't want to tear up any fresh drywall and had only
>planned on wiring half his shop ceiling to begin with! I'm hoping he
>reconsiders both options as absolutely necessary to his eventual
>happiness.
>

That's why I pointed him towards Wiremold.
>
>> With dual ballast 4 lampers put the inners on one ballast (and
>>switch) and the outers on the second. Primary lighting would use the
>>outer tubes, full lighting all 4.
>
>I'm not a fan of 4-lampers. Too much light in one area, more
>expensive to run.

Split ballast 2 lampers are also available.

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 02:02:06 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Ayup, it's time to start cuttin' into that drywall if you didn't wire
>> for the entire ceiling. Add that switch while you're at it. 3 rows of
>> 3 fixtures with 2 rows of 2 in between them, switched for even and odd
>> rows. 3' spacing between rows instead of 4', or go 2' from walls and
>> keep the 4' row spacing.
>>
>> ---- ---- ----
>> ---- ---- (door side)
>> ---- ---- ----
>> ---- ----
>> ---- ---- ----
>>
>> It's closer to Lew's modeling (way too much, IMHO) but it's switchable
>> to avoid the need for sunglasses. Pure white EGGSHELL paint is the
>> perfect mix for reflection without glare or thrown shadows.
>
>Larry,
>Here are 2 more views of your vision implemented in SketchUp in case
>anyone would like to see:
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Cool! I assume that the two wrong-way lights are the existing backups?


>I had to move a few bit to accommodate obstacles (like garage door
>opener). The luminaires with electronic ballasts featuring "instant
>start" and than 10% THD are about $40 each--lamps extra.

Total harmonic distortion in fluors? New one on me.

See if you can buy lamps and fixtures by the case from the electrical
distributor for a better price.

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:36:55 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Dec 2, 3:47 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:10:40 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 12/2/2010 8:23 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 02:02:06 -0500, Bill<[email protected]>  wrote:
>> >>> I had to move a few bit to accommodate obstacles (like garage door
>> >>> opener).  The luminaires with electronic ballasts featuring "instant
>> >>> start" and less than 10% THD are about $40 each--lamps extra.
>>
>> >> Total harmonic distortion in fluors?  New one on me.
>>
>> >Wikipedia says 1% THD is supposed to be inaudible to the human ear.
>> >"Standard" (Lithonia) electronic ballasts are < 20% THD
>> >"Instant on and Rapid start" electronic ballast by Lithonia are < 10% THD.
>>
>> So they're saying that these babies HUM LIKE HELL, or what?
>> WTF is an audio distortion figure doing on a light fixture?!?
>
>
>Don't get me started. THD is a useless spec. It 's like a single
>number indicating impurities in ice cream. Some impurities are straw,
>some are bat shit.
>
>'Even order' harmonics are much easier to put up with than 'odd
>order' (not related to the fundamental note) harmonics. (Please, all
>you musicians and psycho-acousticians keep your shirts on, I know it
>is an over simplification.)
>Even order harmonics is how we tell instruments apart, odd order
>is ..is.. like..Celine Dijon (without AutoTune.)


THD is not so much about accoustics as it is about "dirty power".
Low TDH ballasts are becoming much more common in
industrial/commercial lighting applications (specifically those with 3
phase power)

according to ITS Intertek Testing Services (Boxborough, MA)

Power line harmonics is just one of the many power quality issues that
arise with public utilities. Effectively, current harmonics represent
a distortion of the normal sine wave provided by the utility. When a
product such as an SCR switched load or a switching power supply
distorts the current, harmonics at multiples of the power line
frequency are generated. Two significant consequences arise as a
result of harmonic generation. First, because of finite impedances of
power lines, voltage variations are generated that other equipment on
the line must tolerate. Second, when generated in a three-phase
system, harmonics may cause overheating of neutral lines.

Power line harmonics are generated when a load draws a non-linear
current from a sinusoidal voltage. The harmonic component is an
element of a Fourier series which can be used to define any periodic
waveshape. The harmonic order or number is the integral number defined
by the ratio of the frequency of the harmonic to the fundamental
frequency (e.g., 150 Hz is the third harmonic of 50 Hz; n = 150/50). A
second harmonic is therefore two times the fundamental frequency of
the supply line volt current. If the supply voltage had been generated
by an ideal source (zero impedance), the current distortion would have
little effect on the supply voltage sine wave. However, because a
power system has a finite impedance, the current distortion caused by
a nonlinear load creates a corresponding voltage distortion in the
supply lines. This voltage distortion can subsequently disrupt
operation of other sensitive equipment connected to the same line.
Voltage distortion can also cause motors operating on the line to
overheat

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 12:07:07 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 11/30/2010 9:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Bill wrote:> One good
>>> thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I set
>>> aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few more.
>>
>> Good move. The cheapo, open, shop type fixtures work just fine.
>>
>
>You mean the ones with the reflectors/wings?

With or without, it makes little difference. White paint ceilings and
walls will act as reflectors.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
> joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with SketchUp!
>
> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to add.
> Please see my two jpeg's:
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
> web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb!
> Don't want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K or
> 6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>
> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
> the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
> satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").

There should be a light positioned to illuminate the guts of the panel--
for some reason I was under the impression that there was a code
requirement for that but it might be my mind playing tricks on me.

The "free workspace" requirement doesn't mean there can't be anything in
the ceiling--the idea is that there has to be room for a guy working on
the panel to stand in front of it and work on it without being in an
awkward posture.

> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. What
> would you change?

Just a suggestion but check your local library and see if they have or
can get for you either the "IES Lighting Handbook" or "Time Saver
Standards for Architectural Design", or check the used book sites and
see if you can find older copies for cheap.

"Time Saver Standards for Architectural Design" has a good section on
lighting design, with illumination patterns for many common types of
fixture, the required illumination levels for a wide range of tasks, and
details of calculation methods. The IES Handbook has that and a
tremendous lot more--it's the "bible" of the lighting industry.

If you're dealing with straight tube fluorescents then any edition of
either published in the last 30 years or so should have what you need.

If I have time over the weekend and can find my copy of Time Saver
Standards I'll see if I can work out the numbers for you, but no
promises.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Ecnerwal wrote:
> > In article<[email protected]>, Bill<[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe there is an easier way...I need to investigate further and see.
> >
> > EMT and surface boxes get the job done, and are not too spendy. Added
> > plus - rodents can't chew those wires. I've come to a new appreciation
> > of the "Chicago code" approach (EVERYTHING in conduit, which may or may
> > not be _actual_ Chicago code).
>
>
> Your comments on EMT are well-taken. Sounds like a smart approach.
> It's time for me to draw a new model.
>
> I have a small black "shop mole" I run into from time to time. I
> wondered what he was doing for food. I learned he evidentally ate a 5
> pound bag of dog biscuits last winter, all through a hole no larger than
> a nickle near the bottom. My wife said she isn't going to feed him this
> year.

I had one of those. He got curious about a dry-charged battery I had on
a shelf and sampled the clear liquid in the plastic bag next to it.
Ruined his day.

In article <[email protected]>, tiredofspam
says...
>
> you never run romex in conduit!!!
> You run multistrand wires in conduit.

Instead, you run Romex in a chase made out of EMT.
>
>
> On 11/30/2010 10:14 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> >> Yes, I will. It's just that getting electricity to that precise spot
> >> isn't as simple as it may seem on the Internet! : )
> >>
> > You can always run some romex in metal conduit on the outside of the
> > wall. It doesn't look all that sexy. But is is often done in shops. Not
> > much mess with that approach. Just find the wood behind the drywall to
> > attach the conduit. Conduit attaches easily to the outlet boxes. Lights
> > and outlets can them be added to the outlet boxes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:29:39 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >You mean on the (thin strip of) "wall" rather than the overhead
> >ceiling, right?
>
> I mean that you should put lights on the ceiling above the area the
> door opens to. Just Do It!
>
> --
> Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
> -- Margaret Lee Runbeck

Typical garage door needs a significant amount of clearance from the
ceiling - there should be plenty of room for lights there - climb up a
ladder and measure it. You can also mount them on the garage door tracks
if you are capable of a little metalwork and pay attention to where you
can attach stuff without mucking up door operation. Those would not be
blocked by the door (but they will be its full width apart.) Fairly rare
for most of us to have lights on and door open at same time, in practice
(even if the weather is nice, the bugs fly into the lights, and
garage-door-size screen doors are a significant hassle/project.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article <[email protected]>,
Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:

> In addition to the ones round the wall I have several fixed to the ceiling
> down the centre which are useful for portable power tools. If you can
> reach them, these would be useful in your situation as you have a bigger
> area to cover and parts would be further from the wall requiring long
> leads which you could trip over.

And if you can't reach them, you hang cords (with proper strain reliefs)
that are higher than your head, but in reach of your arms. Very useful.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
> the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
> satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").

The longer workbench is in the space that should be kept clear. The
light is not a problem (actually, a light at the panel is a requirement,
as is an outlet at the panel - both to make working on the panel
civilized.)

Put the bench lights on a different switch, and more over the bench (and
move the bench to a different wall if it's not on wheels.) You can have
just those on for bench work, and just the others on for non-bench-work,
and both on for jobs that go back and forth. Or get more specific and
provide a light for each machine, with a switch for it, and turn it on
when working on that machine (depends how much you care about saving
electricity .vs. some added cost and complexity (not much) in wiring).
Not as much use if the shop is cold and the florescent lights take a
long time to come to full brightness. The light for the tablesaw should
be high-frequency ballast and/or include at least one incandescent
(often a spot pointed at the blade) that does not "flicker", to avoid
the "strobe effect" where the blade seems to stand still as it slows
down (while still spinning.)

People go with all sorts of options, and work under all sorts of
conditions. As you get older, you'll want more light to maintain acuity
as your eyes go to crap, unless you got really lucky in the eye lottery.
"Blasting yourself out" is almost impossible, given the amount of light
in full sun .vs. what we achieve with any indoor lighting. Providing
appropriate light for the task at hand is more like it (ie, if you are
not doing any fiddly work away from bench or machines, less light is
appropriate there, particularly if it's something like lumber storage -
OTOH, if you are finishing large projects away from the bench, you'll
want lights you can turn on for that process, at least.)

If you have any "shop lights" around the house, they are easy to hang
and move and get an idea of where you are putting permanent fixtures.
Sometimes real life is better than any computer model you can reasonably
expect to find for free.

Paint the floor white. It won't stay pristine white, but it will reflect
more light than a gray or red floor, and paint keeps the concrete dust
down.

This is what - 20 x 25 x 8 ft high? I'd guesstimate that you'd want at
least 6 fixtures for general work lighting, and more on the bench.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article <[email protected]>, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Maybe there is an easier way...I need to investigate further and see.

EMT and surface boxes get the job done, and are not too spendy. Added
plus - rodents can't chew those wires. I've come to a new appreciation
of the "Chicago code" approach (EVERYTHING in conduit, which may or may
not be _actual_ Chicago code) after finding some of the things mice have
chewed over the years. Having been raised in a state where it's still
legal (and certainly was very common) to simply staple romex (exposed)
in accessory buildings (barns, garages, shops) that's a major shift in
my thinking. Realizing that the fire department is mostly only able to
keep fires from spreading to other buildings by the time they arrive has
impacted that thought process.

Does mean I have a pile of plastic romex-only boxes I'm not going to
use, probably, but there you go.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article <[email protected]>,
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > Close to 100 posts, most totally crap.
> >
> > IES recommendations for a machine shop/wood shop call for 100 foot
> > candles maintained.
> >
> > Using 2 lamp fixtures, approximately 19 fixtures are required for 100 FC
> > maintained.
>
> I agree with the point that it is tough to get enough light for a shop.
>
> I would say that he should check out the high output 8 foot fixtures,
> though. It is amazing how much light they put out. It may be more
> economical to go that way.

For a low ceiling, HO fixtures are dubious - hard to get the light
evenly distributed if there's only 5 feet or so between the fixture and
the bench-height. At about 10 feet and up they make more sense (but
stick with low bay fixtures until you get to 16 feet or more). For any
ceiling, 8 foot bulbs are a pain to transport, have shipped, etc. .vs. 4
foot bulbs, and don't offer much, if any, improvement in efficiency. You
can get a boat-load of light in a high-output 4 foot fixture, and get
bulbs shipped UPS...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 02:34:08 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my
>>>> ceiling joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening
>>>> with SketchUp!
>>>>
>>>> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to
>>>> add. Please see my two jpeg's:
>>>>
>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>
>>>> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
>>>> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics
>>>> at my web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per
>>>> bulb! Don't want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using
>>>> 32W, 5000K or 6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the
>>>> distances of the lights from the walls are 36" and 24"
>>>> respectively. Assume the walls will be white (for decent
>>>> reflectivity). The floor is concrete. I'm going to keep the light
>>>> in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to satisfy relevant codes
>>>> (regarding a "free workspace").
>>>>
>>>> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time.
>>>> What would you change?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>>> on the task lighting.
>>
>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>
> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
> occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
> it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this
> time.
> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input
> folks
> have generously provided to me.
>
> Good thoughtful comments on the task lighting above. Not exactly sure
> how to take them into consideration, but doing so seems like the right
> thing to do. Still homework to do on this..more modeling. One good
> thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I set
> aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few more.
>
> Bill
>

Bill,

I have the same situation in my garage/shop with the overhead door.
During the day with the garage door open I get plenty of light through
the opening. But at night and when it is too cool outside to keep the
door open, I have two 2-light 48" florescents over where the door opens.
Sure allows me more room to work with good lighting. Just a thought.
YMMV.

Steve

you never run romex in conduit!!!
You run multistrand wires in conduit.


On 11/30/2010 10:14 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> Yes, I will. It's just that getting electricity to that precise spot
>> isn't as simple as it may seem on the Internet! : )
>>
> You can always run some romex in metal conduit on the outside of the
> wall. It doesn't look all that sexy. But is is often done in shops. Not
> much mess with that approach. Just find the wood behind the drywall to
> attach the conduit. Conduit attaches easily to the outlet boxes. Lights
> and outlets can them be added to the outlet boxes.
>
>
>
>
>

you can always mount your wires externally to sheetrock. Depending on
code you may require a conduit, or you may not.

On 11/30/2010 9:33 PM, Bill wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 14:29:39 -0500, Bill<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> On 11/30/2010 9:29 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> OMG, don't even think about NOT putting lights above the door, Bill!
>>>
>>>
>>> You mean on the (thin strip of) "wall" rather than the overhead
>>> ceiling, right?
>>
>> I mean that you should put lights on the ceiling above the area the
>> door opens to. Just Do It!
>
> Yes, I will. It's just that getting electricity to that precise spot
> isn't as simple as it may seem on the Internet! : )
>
> Unfortunately, I think even a good description of the mess involved
> would pale in comparison to the actual mess...
>
> Maybe there is an easier way...I need to investigate further and see.
>
> Bill
>
>>
>> --
>> Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
>> -- Margaret Lee Runbeck
>

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 12:50:09 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 11/29/2010 10:16 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> At least this time around, I know 6000K is not necessarily "Brighter
>>> Than" 5000K! I'm getting there. : )
>>
>> Hell, Bill. In just six to ten more months, you'll likely have the
>> answer!
>>
>
>I year and a half ago, my wife and I moved into our house and so I
>finally have the chance to "build my shop". She says all she wants me
>to make for her is a birdhouse (but I've got her waiting on furniture).

Good going.


>And I have to tell her that I need a drill press, band saw, table saw,
>router, fluorescent and task lighting, and new electrical sub-panel
>panel to make this birdhouse.

That is trickier, as I understand it from a bachelor's point of view.


>Reminds me of the cute story that ends with the question: How much did
>it cost you to make that little table (birdhouse)? $100k. : )

Sounds about right.


>My numbers are smaller of course, but it still makes me smile.

One would hope.


>Another antique metal-cutting lathe showed up at the local auction this
>week. More petite than the monster that showed up a few months ago.
>I'm either becoming more particular or becoming a conniseur. It's
>cheaper and easier to be a conniseur than a collector! :)

Indeed!

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

Bill wrote:

>
> I had to move a few bit to accommodate obstacles (like garage door
> opener). The luminaires with electronic ballasts featuring "instant
> start" and than 10% THD are about $40 each--lamps extra.
>
> Bill

I don't remember the size of your garage Bill, but mine is 36 X 26 and I
have 15 4' flourescent fixtures with 2 bulbs each in it. They are
configured as 6 in each car bay, and 3 in the third bay which is where
things like my table saw, compound mitre, etc. sleep when I'm not using
them. As well, there is a workbench across the back of the third bay that
has an additional flourescent hung under a shelf.

That's ton of light - and I paint cars in my garage, as well as woodworking,
butchering the occassional deer, and assorted other things. I can't imagine
what yours is going to look like! Expect to hear the Halleluiah Choir when
you hit the switch!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Morgans wrote:
>>> "Bill"<[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> BTW, I saw an "offset connnector" in a book that may eliminate my
>>>> need for an EMT bender. At about 1.50/each (on Amazon), there is
>>>> no apparent cost savings though. Perhaps they are cheaper by the
>>>> bag.
>>>
>>> Bill, you really NEED a conduit bender. Rally, two, 1/2" and a
>>> 3/4". It is another skill to learn and master that will give you
>>> and people like you (us) a good feeling of satisfaction. It really
>>> isn't all that hard, and you will use it again, I guarantee.
>>
>> Especially after you compare a successful bend to the pile of kinks
>> laying over in the corner...
>>
>
> Well, the (1/2") conduit is 1.60 for per 10 feet pc. I could afford to
> practice a little. $30 for the bender. I think the appearance would
> be better without so many offset connectors...
>

It would be. The conduit looks more graceful when it simply sweeps up into
a box, rather than having an offset screwed to it - but only marginally so,
since it still has to clamp into a box connector. Sorta like a great set of
34B's tucked into either a spandex sports bra, or tucked into a sheer lace
bra - both ruin the look of the natural beauty, one just ruins the look much
more. Swingman - ya with me on this one?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Nov 29, 11:14=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 02:34:08 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
> >>joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with SketchUp=
!
>
> >>I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to add.
> >>Please see my two jpeg's:
>
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> >>Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
> >>However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
> >>web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs =3D 13.3 ft^2 per bulb!
> >>Don't want to blast my self out. =A0I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K =
or
> >>6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>
> >>I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
> >>the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. =A0Assume the
> >>walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
> >>I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it t=
o
> >>satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>
> >>I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. =A0Wh=
at
> >>would you change?
>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Bill
>
> >Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
> >environment. =A0Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
> >on the task lighting.
>
> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
> 20x25' shop space? =A0If not, fall in behind Lew. =A0I'm doing OK with 5
> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)

Nine dual 4 foot 40 watt fluorescent fixtures is pretty good. It will
seem pretty bright, but could be better. I would put 12 or 15
fixtures in for overall lighting. The 9 fixtures will not be enough
to really light up the room. You will be able to see everything, but
it won't shine. You would still need task lighting to see. With 12
or better, 15, fixtures, you could eliminate the inconvenience of
turning on and off task lighting every time you move around the work
area. What an inconvenience.

My basement is split into two rooms. One about 19x29 and the other
25x32. About 550 and 800 square feet. The 550 side has 19 two bulb 4
foot 40 watt fluorescent fixtures. About 2.7 watts per square foot.
The 800 side has 18 two bulb 4 foot 40 watt fluorescent fixtures.
About 1.8 watts per square foot. Both rooms are bright. All walls
and floor are painted white. Until now I never realized one side was
so under lit compared to the other side. The way the room is setup
with the furnace and ductwork and supporting beam, I'm not sure I
could have squeezed in another row of lights. So it will have to do.

The question asker has 500 square feet lit by 9 lights so about 1.44
watts per square foot. Good but could easily be better. Your room is
480 square feet lit by 5 fixtures. Only 0.83 watts per square foot.
Not enough.

If the original question asker is putting in lights, I don't
understand why he would not put in plenty of lights. It takes minimal
extra work to install a few more. And if having light bothers you,
its easy to just remove the bulb. Less light, less electricity used,
and you still have the option of putting the bulb back in and getting
adequate light.



>
> --
> Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
> simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 -- Storm Jameson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill wrote:

>
> Furring strips may be unnecessary, but I think they may add something
> extra, beside making it easy to nail up my clamp and boxes. There is
> something that makes me uneasy about running EMT across the stippled
> ceiling. It could end up looking too much like somebody's basement. A
> beveled furring strip says, to me, that somebody cared. I'm about the
> only one that's going to be in there, and I'll appreciate the
> difference. The added inconvenience is pretty minimal since I'm doing
> the work myself. Besides that, if I didn't put up the furring strips,
> I wouldn't have as good of an excuse to repaint the ceiling! : )
>

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Bill, so whatever floats your boat is
what you do. As far as looking like someone's basement - well, I guess...
maybe. To me, conduit properly hung would simply look like conduit properly
hung. I don't see where firring strips would say that somebody cared, but
that's my perspective, and it ain't my garage. If it really appeals to your
eye more, then just go with it, and move past any discussion about firring
strips here. Forget about any concerns for shrinkage/expansion. Just screw
them up. Do you think the builders of your house allowed for
shrinkage/expansion in the stud walls when they nailed them together?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:22:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Nov 29, 11:14 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 02:34:08 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >>Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
>> >>joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with SketchUp!
>>
>> >>I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to add.
>> >>Please see my two jpeg's:
>>
>> >>                http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> >>Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
>> >>However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
>> >>web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb!
>> >>Don't want to blast my self out.  I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K or
>> >>6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>>
>> >>I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
>> >>the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively.  Assume the
>> >>walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
>> >>I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
>> >>satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>>
>> >>I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time.  What
>> >>would you change?
>>
>> >>Thanks,
>> >>Bill
>>
>> >Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>> >environment.  Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>> >on the task lighting.
>>
>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>> 20x25' shop space?  If not, fall in behind Lew.  I'm doing OK with 5
>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>
>Nine dual 4 foot 40 watt fluorescent fixtures is pretty good. It will
>seem pretty bright, but could be better. I would put 12 or 15
>fixtures in for overall lighting. The 9 fixtures will not be enough
>to really light up the room. You will be able to see everything, but
>it won't shine. You would still need task lighting to see. With 12
>or better, 15, fixtures, you could eliminate the inconvenience of
>turning on and off task lighting every time you move around the work
>area. What an inconvenience.
>
>My basement is split into two rooms. One about 19x29 and the other
>25x32. About 550 and 800 square feet. The 550 side has 19 two bulb 4
>foot 40 watt fluorescent fixtures. About 2.7 watts per square foot.
>The 800 side has 18 two bulb 4 foot 40 watt fluorescent fixtures.
>About 1.8 watts per square foot. Both rooms are bright. All walls
>and floor are painted white. Until now I never realized one side was
>so under lit compared to the other side. The way the room is setup
>with the furnace and ductwork and supporting beam, I'm not sure I
>could have squeezed in another row of lights. So it will have to do.
>
>The question asker has 500 square feet lit by 9 lights so about 1.44
>watts per square foot. Good but could easily be better. Your room is
>480 square feet lit by 5 fixtures. Only 0.83 watts per square foot.
>Not enough.
>
>If the original question asker is putting in lights, I don't
>understand why he would not put in plenty of lights. It takes minimal
>extra work to install a few more. And if having light bothers you,
>its easy to just remove the bulb. Less light, less electricity used,
>and you still have the option of putting the bulb back in and getting
>adequate light.
>
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
>> simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
>>                                         -- Storm Jameson- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
I'd put in lots of light - but "split density" - half of each light,
or every second light, on one switch, the other half on another switch
so you can have enough light to move around and do non-vision-critical
stuff with reduced lighting cost, and full bright light when you need
it.
With dual ballast 4 lampers put the inners on one ballast (and
switch) and the outers on the second. Primary lighting would use the
outer tubes, full lighting all 4.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 16:08:38 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>chaniarts wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the purpose of the furring strips, Bill? Electronic ballasts
>>>> don't get hot, the ceiling is flat, and the fixtures are flat. Butt
>>>> 'em and forget 'em.
>>>
>>> Temperature of attached garage varies between about 25F and 110F, and
>>> humidity varies too. I know most expansion/contraction occurs between
>>> the annular rings, but some also occurs along the grain too. Shouldn't
>>> one leave space for it? Assume 6' to 8' std onebyfour lumber. This
>>> looks like something I should be able to look up in a table (maybe
>>> someone has a link handy).
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> no. the drywall won't be moving. even if they did, what do you expect to
>> occur? they fixtures will give a little because the screws holding them to
>> the ceiling won't fill the holes completely.
>
>Not talking about the drywall moving, rather the "furring strips" that
>the lights are mounted to. Larry suggested mounting the 1by4s to the
>studs end-to-end. It was suggested to mount these from wall-to-wall. I

I most certainly did NOT, Bill. I told you to mount the lights in that
orientation and asked WTF? when you started on about furring strips,
which are unnecessary, unless you have some nastyass warts on your
shiny new fixtures. Most are built to mount flat against the wall or
ceiling.

--
Know how to listen, and you will
profit even from those who talk badly.
-- Plutarch

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:19:28 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

> I'd put in lots of light - but "split density" - half of each light,
>or every second light, on one switch, the other half on another switch
>so you can have enough light to move around and do non-vision-critical
>stuff with reduced lighting cost, and full bright light when you need
>it.

Yabbut, Bill doesn't want to tear up any fresh drywall and had only
planned on wiring half his shop ceiling to begin with! I'm hoping he
reconsiders both options as absolutely necessary to his eventual
happiness.


> With dual ballast 4 lampers put the inners on one ballast (and
>switch) and the outers on the second. Primary lighting would use the
>outer tubes, full lighting all 4.

I'm not a fan of 4-lampers. Too much light in one area, more
expensive to run.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Dec 2, 3:47=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:10:40 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 12/2/2010 8:23 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> >> On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 02:02:06 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >>> I had to move a few bit to accommodate obstacles (like garage door
> >>> opener). =A0The luminaires with electronic ballasts featuring "instan=
t
> >>> start" and less than 10% THD are about $40 each--lamps extra.
>
> >> Total harmonic distortion in fluors? =A0New one on me.
>
> >Wikipedia says 1% THD is supposed to be inaudible to the human ear.
> >"Standard" (Lithonia) electronic ballasts are < 20% THD
> >"Instant on and Rapid start" electronic ballast by Lithonia are < 10% TH=
D.
>
> So they're saying that these babies HUM LIKE HELL, or what?
> WTF is an audio distortion figure doing on a light fixture?!?


Don't get me started. THD is a useless spec. It 's like a single
number indicating impurities in ice cream. Some impurities are straw,
some are bat shit.

'Even order' harmonics are much easier to put up with than 'odd
order' (not related to the fundamental note) harmonics. (Please, all
you musicians and psycho-acousticians keep your shirts on, I know it
is an over simplification.)
Even order harmonics is how we tell instruments apart, odd order
is ..is.. like..Celine Dijon (without AutoTune.)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 22:14:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote:

>
>
>"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> Yes, I will. It's just that getting electricity to that precise spot
>> isn't as simple as it may seem on the Internet! : )
>>
>You can always run some romex in metal conduit on the outside of the wall.
>It doesn't look all that sexy. But is is often done in shops. Not much
>mess with that approach. Just find the wood behind the drywall to attach
>the conduit. Conduit attaches easily to the outlet boxes. Lights and
>outlets can them be added to the outlet boxes.

There ya go, painting the conduit white to match. It will hide up
there fairly well. (Nah, I'd put it up behind the drywall.)

And branch the second light string from the first.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:26:20 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> I most certainly did NOT, Bill. I told you to mount the lights in that
>> orientation and asked WTF? when you started on about furring strips,
>> which are unnecessary, unless you have some nastyass warts on your
>> shiny new fixtures. Most are built to mount flat against the wall or
>> ceiling.
>
>Yes, you and others got me to rotate my lights by 90 degrees.
>
>Furring strips may be unnecessary, but I think they may add something
>extra, beside making it easy to nail up my clamp and boxes. There is
>something that makes me uneasy about running EMT across the stippled
>ceiling. It could end up looking too much like somebody's basement. A
>beveled furring strip says, to me, that somebody cared. I'm about the
>only one that's going to be in there, and I'll appreciate the

I sure can't argue that. Sure you don't want gold-filled dentil
moulding around them, too? <gd&r>


>difference. The added inconvenience is pretty minimal since I'm doing
>the work myself. Besides that, if I didn't put up the furring strips, I
>wouldn't have as good of an excuse to repaint the ceiling! : )

There ya go! <g>

--
Know how to listen, and you will
profit even from those who talk badly.
-- Plutarch

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote

> BTW, I saw an "offset connnector" in a book that may eliminate my need for
> an EMT bender. At about 1.50/each (on Amazon), there is no apparent cost
> savings though. Perhaps they are cheaper by the bag.

Bill, you really NEED a conduit bender. Rally, two, 1/2" and a 3/4". It
is another skill to learn and master that will give you and people like you
(us) a good feeling of satisfaction. It really isn't all that hard, and you
will use it again, I guarantee.
--
Jim in NC

On 11/29/2010 8:50 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:


> Try to keep your bench lighting between you and the wall to prevent
> shadows when leaning over your work.

That's a really good thought. Thank you. That may be a good argument
for an additional light "between me and the wall".

Bill

On 11/29/2010 8:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances
>> of the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
>> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
>> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it
>> to satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>>
>
> You don't need to worry about your shop lights being inside of the 36"
> workspace around your panel. That workspace defines unobstructed floor and
> wall space.

That's helpful. Thank you. I thought I read "36" in front of ...and up
to the ceiling", but a light snug to the ceiling is not really an
obstruction (to me and you). I'll double-check.

Bill

Ecnerwal wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
>> the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
>> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
>> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
>> satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>
> The longer workbench is in the space that should be kept clear. The
> light is not a problem (actually, a light at the panel is a requirement,
> as is an outlet at the panel - both to make working on the panel
> civilized.)
>
> Put the bench lights on a different switch, and more over the bench (and
> move the bench to a different wall if it's not on wheels.) You can have
> just those on for bench work, and just the others on for non-bench-work,
> and both on for jobs that go back and forth. Or get more specific and
> provide a light for each machine, with a switch for it, and turn it on
> when working on that machine (depends how much you care about saving
> electricity .vs. some added cost and complexity (not much) in wiring).
> Not as much use if the shop is cold and the florescent lights take a
> long time to come to full brightness. The light for the tablesaw should
> be high-frequency ballast and/or include at least one incandescent
> (often a spot pointed at the blade) that does not "flicker", to avoid
> the "strobe effect" where the blade seems to stand still as it slows
> down (while still spinning.)
>
> People go with all sorts of options, and work under all sorts of
> conditions. As you get older, you'll want more light to maintain acuity
> as your eyes go to crap, unless you got really lucky in the eye lottery.
> "Blasting yourself out" is almost impossible, given the amount of light
> in full sun .vs. what we achieve with any indoor lighting. Providing
> appropriate light for the task at hand is more like it (ie, if you are
> not doing any fiddly work away from bench or machines, less light is
> appropriate there, particularly if it's something like lumber storage -
> OTOH, if you are finishing large projects away from the bench, you'll
> want lights you can turn on for that process, at least.)
>
> If you have any "shop lights" around the house, they are easy to hang
> and move and get an idea of where you are putting permanent fixtures.
> Sometimes real life is better than any computer model you can reasonably
> expect to find for free.
>
> Paint the floor white. It won't stay pristine white, but it will reflect
> more light than a gray or red floor, and paint keeps the concrete dust
> down.
>
> This is what - 20 x 25 x 8 ft high? I'd guesstimate that you'd want at
> least 6 fixtures for general work lighting, and more on the bench.

Thank you. The replies to my original post put new (and worthwhile)
ideas in my head:

1) Shadows
2) Mock-up lighting for testing purposes
3) Maybe I don't need "wrap-arounds" as much as I thought I did (they
are pretty though).
4) Further switch possibilities. BTW, my existing two lights are powered
by a separate panel (my main panel) which I like. But I only installed
one extra light switch this summer! Ahhhhh! There's more than one way to
switch a light though...I'm not ready to tear my new drywall down yet.
5)Further lighting references, etc.!

At least this time around, I know 6000K is not necessarily "Brighter
Than" 5000K! I'm getting there. : )

Bill

Stuart wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Don't want to blast my self out.
>
> Hmmm, don't think that's likely :-)
>
> I have a 16ft x 8ft garage as my workshop, main lighting is four 48", 58W
> fluorescent fittings running lengthwise. Walls and ceiling are all painted
> white. In addition there's a 100W incandescent spot in an adjustable
> fitting aimed at my vice.
>
> The other end of the bench there's a large circular, illuminated,
> magnifying lamp on an "anglepoise" type arrangement. Apart from it's use
> when critical marking out (metalwork mainly) when raised up it can provide
> more general "Task lighting". This has a "G" clamp like fixing and can be
> moved from its present position, clamped to the end of the bench towards
> the back.
>
> Fixed to the underside of the 12" wide shelf, which runs the full length
> of the wall, over the bench, at this same end of the bench, is a 20W
> halogen spotlight in an adjustable fitting. This can either be positioned
> to throw light forward onto the end of the bench or swivelled through 90
> deg to direct light onto my X1 milling machine.
>
> If I turn round from facing my bench, I find myself facing my C3 minilathe
> against the other wall, which has a 60W incandescent spotlight in an
> anglepoise fitting clamped to the tailstock end of its bench. This lamp,
> when rotated through 180 deg will throw additional light on my router
> table.
>
> In addition to all this I have a 60W incandescent spot in a "lead lamp".
> This has a strong spring clip and can be used anywhere in the shop, though
> it is normally positioned to aim light at the table of my drill press -
> which is next to my mill and also throws some light on that.
>
> In your situation, I'd certainly be adding a lot more 4ft fluorescents

I enjoyed the "tour" of your shop! From your post, and others, it's
apparent that "systems" of lighting evolve. I don't want to be an energy
hog, so I'd prefer lighting systems that I can use in a discretionary
way (compared to ::INSTANT-ON::). I think I'll begin by illuminating
what I regard as the main part of my work area and take it from there.
I intend to power the lights using ordinary plugs into new 2 duplex
outlets (which will be subservient to 1 wall switch), so my
configuration will be reasonably adjustable. Some of my virtual
furnishings (i.e. cabinet and workbenches) are waiting to be built!

It wasn't until today did I really thought of lighting *systems* as
such. At some point though, one has to make a few trade-offs to get
some work done! :) No doubt, there are more systems ahead (DC, HVLP,
plumbing, ...). Using Hemmingway's words, I just want "a clean
well-lighted place...". :) I'm glad to see that my h.s. literature
class is finally paying a dividend!

Bill

tiredofspam wrote:
> Nice drawing using skethup. Where did you get the bandsaw ,workbench and
> tablesaw? Did you make them yourself or download a library?

Thank you. I downloaded the drillpress, bandsaw and tablesaw models
from the SketchUP 3D Warehouse. I modeled the benches after looking at a
design published by FWW which was presented by Garrett Hack in "Tools &
Shops" (Winter 2009). His bench also has a tool-trough, and other
niceties. I downloaded the vises from 3D Warehouse.



>
> As far as lights, I agree with quartering your layout.
>
> I have boxes that have 3 bulbs. I put four in my hand tool area, None
> directly over the bench.
> I put them offset to both sides .. to eliminate shadows.

Hmm...At this point I was thinking of putting ceiling lights in front of
me and behind me, to eliminate shadows. Same idea? Perhaps I would be
wasting light illuminating the wall.

I will think more about "quartering" my layout, but I have a garage door
over 1/3 of the space (up to the existing lights), an overhead access
door, and a "medium traffic route" used to help unload groceries, that
doesn't require further illumination. Your comments below about direct
lighting are well-taken.

Thanks,
Bill


I also use
> swing lights on all my benches. I find it more helpful to have direct
> light where I need it. I find these at garage sales and fix them up.
> Sometimes you get a brand new one for $1... All my tools have mounts..
> My sanding station, router table, workbench, sanders, scroll saw,
>
> I try to avoid direct overhead lighting knowing my head will block out
> the light when bending over. My tablesaw has 2 overhead boxes, one on
> each side of the blade and toward the outfeed table to avoid my own shadow.
>
>
>
> On 11/29/2010 2:34 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
>> joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with SketchUp!
>>
>> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to add.
>> Please see my two jpeg's:
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
>> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
>> web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb! Don't
>> want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K or 6000K
>> fluorescent bulbs.
>>
>> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
>> the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the walls
>> will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete. I'm
>> going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
>> satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>>
>> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. What
>> would you change?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 02:34:08 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my ceiling
>>> joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening with SketchUp!
>>>
>>> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to add.
>>> Please see my two jpeg's:
>>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>
>>> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
>>> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics at my
>>> web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per bulb!
>>> Don't want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using 32W, 5000K or
>>> 6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>>>
>>> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the distances of
>>> the lights from the walls are 36" and 24" respectively. Assume the
>>> walls will be white (for decent reflectivity). The floor is concrete.
>>> I'm going to keep the light in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to
>>> satisfy relevant codes (regarding a "free workspace").
>>>
>>> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time. What
>>> would you change?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bill
>>
>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>> on the task lighting.
>
> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)

Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this time.
I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input folks
have generously provided to me.

Good thoughtful comments on the task lighting above. Not exactly sure
how to take them into consideration, but doing so seems like the right
thing to do. Still homework to do on this..more modeling. One good
thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I set
aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few more.

Bill

On 11/30/2010 7:57 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:56:22 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>>>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>>>> on the task lighting.
>>>
>>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>>> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
>>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>>
>> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
>> occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
>> it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this time.
>> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input folks
>> have generously provided to me.
>
> OMG, don't even think about NOT putting lights above the door, Bill!
> It will be closed 99% of the time (keeping noise from your neighbors
> if nothing else) and you'll want that light without heat, cold, or
> gusts of wind, on dark days, early in the morning (layout/glueups and
> assembly only?), and after sundown.

Ed Zachary! I have lights above my door as well, and I use them all the time
(when the door is shut). Just be sure to put them on a separate switch so you
can turn them off when the door is open.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 11/30/2010 9:29 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
> On 11/30/2010 7:57 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:56:22 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>>>>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>>>>> on the task lighting.
>>>>
>>>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>>>> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
>>>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>>>
>>> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
>>> occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
>>> it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this time.
>>> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input folks
>>> have generously provided to me.
>>
>> OMG, don't even think about NOT putting lights above the door, Bill!
>> It will be closed 99% of the time (keeping noise from your neighbors
>> if nothing else) and you'll want that light without heat, cold, or
>> gusts of wind, on dark days, early in the morning (layout/glueups and
>> assembly only?), and after sundown.
>
> Ed Zachary! I have lights above my door as well, and I use them all the
> time (when the door is shut). Just be sure to put them on a separate
> switch so you can turn them off when the door is open.
>

Does any one no of a switch that could be put in the garage door opener
that would allow the lights to work on the normal switch when the door
is down, but turn them off the lights above the door when the door goes up?

If so how would it be wired?

On 11/30/2010 2:47 AM, Steve wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:04:56 -0800, Mike M
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 02:34:08 -0500, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Concerned that I was getting lazy, I went out and measured my
>>>>> ceiling joists and other structure carefully and spent my evening
>>>>> with SketchUp!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am concerned as to how many new 48" (10" wraparound) fixtures to
>>>>> add. Please see my two jpeg's:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>>
>>>>> Putting another light above my virtual bench may make good sense.
>>>>> However, If I regard my bench area as 10' by 8', then my new pics
>>>>> at my web site already demonstrate 80 ft^2/6 bulbs = 13.3 ft^2 per
>>>>> bulb! Don't want to blast my self out. I was thinking of using
>>>>> 32W, 5000K or 6000K fluorescent bulbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to try to optimize my lighting? As drawn, the
>>>>> distances of the lights from the walls are 36" and 24"
>>>>> respectively. Assume the walls will be white (for decent
>>>>> reflectivity). The floor is concrete. I'm going to keep the light
>>>>> in front of the subpanel 36" away from it to satisfy relevant codes
>>>>> (regarding a "free workspace").
>>>>>
>>>>> I never did this before and I hope to do it right the first time.
>>>>> What would you change?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> Well task lighting is nice but it doesn't make for a nice work
>>>> environment. Get a decent light level for the entire shop then take
>>>> on the task lighting.
>>>
>>> Don't you feel that NINE dual 4' fluors would decently light up that
>>> 20x25' shop space? If not, fall in behind Lew. I'm doing OK with 5
>>> of 'em in a 20x24' double car shop (w/ attached home.)
>>
>> Mine is 20'x 24' too. Almost exactly 1/2 of the ceiling is basically
>> occupied by the electric "garage door". Although putting lights above
>> it may be possible, I am not interested in considering it at this
>> time.
>> I'll do some more modeling in a few days based upon recent input
>> folks
>> have generously provided to me.
>>
>> Good thoughtful comments on the task lighting above. Not exactly sure
>> how to take them into consideration, but doing so seems like the right
>> thing to do. Still homework to do on this..more modeling. One good
>> thing that is the price of my fixtures may have went down since I set
>> aside the deluxe wrap-arounds so I should be able to buy a few more.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
> Bill,
>
> I have the same situation in my garage/shop with the overhead door.
> During the day with the garage door open I get plenty of light through
> the opening. But at night and when it is too cool outside to keep the
> door open, I have two 2-light 48" florescents over where the door opens.
> Sure allows me more room to work with good lighting. Just a thought.
> YMMV.
>
> Steve

Nice idea. Sounds like a whole nuther circuit. For me, it will have to
wait until the next round! :)

Thank you,
Bill