Help Explain Please

On Sep 28, 3:38=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "GarageWoodworks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:08821770-262d-4788-a3fd-da61bed086bf@d17g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
> > miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
> > plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. =A0Never do
> > they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
> > Why? =A0Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
> > up? =A0Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? =A0Do
> > they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>
> > exhibit A:http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
> > exhibit B:http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs
>
> Why, because you don't need a dial indicator to peoperly set up your saw.
> Granted a dial indicator makes it a bit more precise but for the most par=
t
> you can not see the cut error that may look huge on a dial indicator, .00=
05"
> For example, do you use your dial indicator to set your rip fence when
> changing widths to cut? =A0Does it really matter if the rip width is 3.01=
" vs.
> 3", not normally.
>
> For setting up the saw, a trial cut will show you if the cut is satisfact=
ory
> or not.
> =A0A dial indicator does no help you make the adjustment from that
> point, it simply lets you know how much you need to adjust, my trial cut =
and
> using with my eyes does the same thing. =A0I don't need the indicator to =
tell
> me that I see a gap.

I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial
cuts" saw dust hits the floor.

This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.


>
> I do have a dial indicator and used it to check blade alignemnt to the mi=
ter
> slot and arbor run out on my new cabinet saw, that was 11 years ago. =A0N=
o
> adjustment was necessary and I have not used the dial indicator since.
>
> Further, technique will often completely erase out a dialed in accuracy.
> For instance my miter gauge has positive stops for the common angles and =
it
> makes accurate smooth silky cuts that would satisy any one. =A0When I ali=
gn my
> rip fence to the miter slot you would think that it too would yield the s=
ame
> results. =A0Not for me, that alignment is the one that I go with trial cu=
ts to
> get the smooth and with out tooth mark cuts.

Trial cuts =3D 'SLOW' and not as accurate.

>
> I always go with the resulting cut as the final adjustment vs the
> measurement indicated by a dial indicator.

On Sep 28, 5:57=A0pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I do not use a dial indicator in the (wood) shop and I will put up my
> results against anyone's. No test cuts needed. Done entirely by feel.

I, on the other hand, use dial indicators sometimes (if I want to
adjust a tablesaw fence a few thousandths left or right, it's
easiest),
and dial calipers (a 12" caliper is VERY nice for woodworking) and
gauge blocks and story sticks and tape measures and feeler gauges
and meter sticks and micrometers and gauge pins and a
measuring microscope.

Sometimes the results are best if done by feel; that's why I use
feeler
gauges to check dovetail fits. It tells me that the fit is off, and
also HOW FAR it's off. One adjustment, then straight into production.

"GarageWoodworks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:08821770-262d-4788-a3fd-da61bed086bf@d17g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
> miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
> plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. Never do
> they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
> Why? Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
> up? Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? Do
> they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>
> exhibit A: http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
> exhibit B: http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs


Why, because you don't need a dial indicator to peoperly set up your saw.
Granted a dial indicator makes it a bit more precise but for the most part
you can not see the cut error that may look huge on a dial indicator, .0005"
For example, do you use your dial indicator to set your rip fence when
changing widths to cut? Does it really matter if the rip width is 3.01" vs.
3", not normally.

For setting up the saw, a trial cut will show you if the cut is satisfactory
or not. A dial indicator does no help you make the adjustment from that
point, it simply lets you know how much you need to adjust, my trial cut and
using with my eyes does the same thing. I don't need the indicator to tell
me that I see a gap.

I do have a dial indicator and used it to check blade alignemnt to the miter
slot and arbor run out on my new cabinet saw, that was 11 years ago. No
adjustment was necessary and I have not used the dial indicator since.

Further, technique will often completely erase out a dialed in accuracy.
For instance my miter gauge has positive stops for the common angles and it
makes accurate smooth silky cuts that would satisy any one. When I align my
rip fence to the miter slot you would think that it too would yield the same
results. Not for me, that alignment is the one that I go with trial cuts to
get the smooth and with out tooth mark cuts.

I always go with the resulting cut as the final adjustment vs the
measurement indicated by a dial indicator.

On Oct 1, 12:16=A0pm, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9/30/2010 2:21 PM, Rotaboy wrote:
>
> > On Sep 30, 9:36 am, Jack Stein<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> =A0 Just as Obama has no
> >> clue what a trillion is, I have trouble blah blah
>
> > Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?
>
> My entire post was on topic including the above snippet,

No it wasn't, Fuckface!.

On Sep 28, 5:03=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "GarageWoodworks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
> I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial
> cuts" saw dust hits the floor.
>
> This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.
>
> I kinda mixed up my answer. =A0I DO NOT make trial cuts to check a fence =
or
> miter gauge setting, I make trial cuts only when "setting up/tuning " the
> saw or fence. =A0No trial cuts necessary except for those occasions, as f=
ew
> and far in between as they seem to be. =A0When working on a project I use=
an
> electronic tilt box to set up bevel angles but miters and fence settings =
are
> set strictly by the degree and measurement marks on the tool.
>
> Now having said that, IIRC you have a Olson miter gauge.... =A0I would us=
e
> something to verify that tool each time I changed a setting. =A0I had one=
,
> acutally had 3 of them and could never rely on it/them =A0holding a setti=
ng
> when the fence was adjusted to a 45 degree setting with the telescoping
> angle adjustment bar. =A0There was too much play in all 3 units that caus=
e the
> gence angle to deviate by as much as 1 degree. =A0I could actually grab t=
he
> fence and wiggle it back and forth. =A0With the fence at 45 in the other
> dirrection it was rock solid.
>
> > I do have a dial indicator and used it to check blade alignemnt to the
> > miter
> > slot and arbor run out on my new cabinet saw, that was 11 years ago. No
> > adjustment was necessary and I have not used the dial indicator since.
>
> > Further, technique will often completely erase out a dialed in accuracy=
.
> > For instance my miter gauge has positive stops for the common angles an=
d
> > it
> > makes accurate smooth silky cuts that would satisy any one. When I alig=
n
> > my
> > rip fence to the miter slot you would think that it too would yield the
> > same
> > results. Not for me, that alignment is the one that I go with trial cut=
s
> > to
> > get the smooth and with out tooth mark cuts.
>
> Trial cuts =3D 'SLOW' and not as accurate.
>
> See above, Trial cuts verify TS tune up, not the cut for a project.

I remember Ed Bennett trying to get you to see the light not to long
ago. If he couldn't help you, I haven't a chance.

What's that Texas saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but yada
yada yada." :^P

On Oct 1, 3:15=A0pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Upscale wrote:
> >>> My entire post was on topic including the above snippet, while your
> >> response was not. Imagine that, douchebag!
>
> > Bull! Half of that "entire" post consisted of you injecting your self
> > styled opinion of Obama and his money management practices into the
> > discussion. You're so full of shit Jackass, that you reek of it.
>
> I don't understand.
>
> How can an observation of the economic practices and goals of the preside=
nt
> NOT be on-topic? Any topic?
>
> Seems to me that the economic measures of the current administration are
> FORCING us to buy cheap Chinese imports.

Oh, I'm sure Douchenozzle's comment was based on an in-depth
reflection such as yours. He comes across as a deep thinker....LOL

"GarageWoodworks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:49b594bf-4d67-4f96-b588-37a472f05842@d17g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 28, 5:03 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:


I remember Ed Bennett trying to get you to see the light not to long
ago. If he couldn't help you, I haven't a chance.


I am not really asking for help, you asked for the explanation. I explained
it.

If you need to use a dial indicator to give you the confidence to set up
your cuts then be happy with that method. Every one has their preferred
method. For me simpler is better, set up the equipment correctly to start
with, buy only equipment that performs as required and trust that equipment.
If you don't trust your equipment, adjust accordingly.
I personally do not need the dial indicator to make accurate cuts. It is a
good tool to have around but I really don't need to use it that often...at
least in the last 10 years.

Using a dial indicator to set up cuts reminds me of when I used a tape
measure to verify my fence setting from the blade. Now with better
equipment I totally trust the markings on the fence rail, the markings and
machined index holes on my Kreg miter gauge and both of my Dubby miter
sleds. I get results that I believe you would agree are perfectly fine.


Ed has a good product, but seriously, the more ways he can teach one to use
it the more likely that he will sell one to some one sitting on the fence
while trying to make a decision whether there is a justifiable need to buy.
I still nave no need as I do have a dial indicator and don't often use it.
If I were having trouble cutting accurate joints I would probably upgrade to
Ed's version of the dial iindicator.

I certainly do not need a Festool Domino for making mortises, I have a
mortiser, but I wanted one and enjoy using it.



What's that Texas saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but yada
yada yada." :^P

May be the old saying,,,,with time and experience comes knowledge.... ;~)

On Sep 28, 12:19=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 9/28/2010 10:55 AM, GarageWoodworks wrote:
>
> > On Sep 28, 11:44 am, GarageWoodworks<[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
> >> miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
> >> plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. =A0Never do
> >> they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
> >> Why? =A0Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
> >> up? =A0Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? =A0D=
o
> >> they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>
> >> exhibit A:http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
> >> exhibit B:http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs
>
> > exhibit c
> >http://tinyurl.com/29vl5l8
>
> Can't see exhibits B and C without signing up for "premium content".
>
> --
> See Nad. =A0See Nad go. =A0Go Nad!
> To reply, eat the taco.http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

You're not missing anything.

On Sep 30, 9:36=A0am, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:

> =A0Just as Obama has no
> clue what a trillion is, I have trouble with 5/10000 of an inch of wood,
> and not one of my projects seem to care.

Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?

On Sep 28, 11:44=A0am, GarageWoodworks <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
> miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
> plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. =A0Never do
> they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
> Why? =A0Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
> up? =A0Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? =A0Do
> they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>
> exhibit A:http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
> exhibit B:http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs

exhibit c
http://tinyurl.com/29vl5l8

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Oct 1, 12:16 pm, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9/30/2010 2:21 PM, Rotaboy wrote:
>
> > On Sep 30, 9:36 am, Jack Stein<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Just as Obama has no
> >> clue what a trillion is, I have trouble blah blah
>
> > Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?
>
> My entire post was on topic including the above snippet,

No it wasn't, Fuckface!.


It's not worth the hassle. Plonk him, I did.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Peace! Timeout! Everyone please find something else to do!!!
> Better???

Of course we're better. Pointing out all of Jackass's deficiencies is one of
our national sports. He deserves to be criticised at every opportunity and
we're happy to do so.

You wouldn't want us to be bored while we're here, would you?


:)

.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:44:33 -0700 (PDT), GarageWoodworks
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
>>miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
>>plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. Never do
>>they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
>>Why? Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
>>up? Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? Do
>>they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>>
>>exhibit A: http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
>>exhibit B: http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs
>
> Those two require membership, and $60/yr for that ain't happenin'.
>
> I got their email this morning and choked up with the 'stick as a
> guide to set the TS blade parallel with the fence.'



I do not use a dial indicator in the (wood) shop and I will put up my
results against anyone's. No test cuts needed. Done entirely by feel. I do
have a couple of dial travel indicators, one test indicator and a couple of
dial calipers in the shop. Rarely ever used

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> Just as Obama has no
>>> clue what a trillion is, I have trouble with 5/10000 of an inch of wood,
>>> and not one of my projects seem to care.
>>
>> Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?
>
> My entire post was on topic including the above snippet, while your
> response was not. Imagine that, douchebag!

Bull! Half of that "entire" post consisted of you injecting your self styled
opinion of Obama and his money management practices into the discussion.
You're so full of shit Jackass, that you reek of it.

Robatoy wrote:
> On Sep 30, 9:36 am, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just as Obama has no
>> clue what a trillion is, I have trouble with 5/10000 of an inch of
>> wood, and not one of my projects seem to care.
>
> Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?

Analogy is often the best teacher. Would you prefer a metaphor?

"Once upon a time there was a rabbit hole..."

On Sep 28, 11:44=A0am, GarageWoodworks <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
> miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
> plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. =A0Never do
> they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
> Why? =A0Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
> up? =A0Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? =A0Do
> they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>
> exhibit A:http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
> exhibit B:http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs

exhibit C

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:44:33 -0700 (PDT), GarageWoodworks
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
>miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
>plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. Never do
>they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
>Why? Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
>up? Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? Do
>they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>
>exhibit A: http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
>exhibit B: http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs

Those two require membership, and $60/yr for that ain't happenin'.

I got their email this morning and choked up with the 'stick as a
guide to set the TS blade parallel with the fence.'

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

On 9/28/2010 10:55 AM, GarageWoodworks wrote:
> On Sep 28, 11:44 am, GarageWoodworks<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or
>> miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and
>> plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. Never do
>> they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator.
>> Why? Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it
>> up? Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? Do
>> they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?
>>
>> exhibit A:http://tinyurl.com/275ccl6
>> exhibit B:http://tinyurl.com/2ayvqvs
>
> exhibit c
> http://tinyurl.com/29vl5l8

Can't see exhibits B and C without signing up for "premium content".

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Leon wrote:
...

> I always go with the resulting cut as the final adjustment vs the
> measurement indicated by a dial indicator.
...

Not to mention the cut is the end result that includes blade performance
as well as compensates for whatever non-coplanar error there is that the
dial indicator builds into the setup adjustment. And, the relatively
short distance from front to rear of the blade means and error is
amplified over longer cutting distances.

All in all, I'm in agreement the cheep'ncheery trick is as good as
any...and better'nmost :)

--

In article <[email protected]>,
GarageWoodworks <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial
>cuts" saw dust hits the floor.
>
>This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.
>

I have used a dial indicator and a bunch of other methods to check and
square a rip fence. I find a combination square works fastest for me and
one is allways close at hand. But honestly, I don't think I actually have
to _change_ anything more than once a year or so, probably less frequently
than that. I image most midrange to good quality table saws are the same.



--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On 9/28/2010 5:52 PM, Leon wrote:

> What's that Texas saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but yada
> yada yada." :^P

> May be the old saying,,,,with time and experience comes knowledge.... ;~)

Your insights are always right on the money Leon. I don't even own a
dial indicator, always considered them more of a machinists tool rather
than a woodworkers tool. I understand the need for some accuracy in
setting up a table saw, but really, I've been using table saws for 50
years and never needed or wanted a dial indicator. I've made bad cuts
many times over the years, but never because I needed a dial indicator
to set up my saw. I figure the guy that ground my table on my table saw
probably used a dial indicator to set up, and test his work.

I recently broke down an bought a digital caliper for my shop, mainly
for more accuracy in measuring metal parts than wood, but the thing
drives me nuts with crazy numbers like 95/128ths. Just as Obama has no
clue what a trillion is, I have trouble with 5/10000 of an inch of wood,
and not one of my projects seem to care.

--
Jack
GO GREEN - RECYCLE CONGRESS
http://jbstein.com

On 9/30/2010 2:21 PM, Rotaboy wrote:
> On Sep 30, 9:36 am, Jack Stein<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just as Obama has no
>> clue what a trillion is, I have trouble with 5/10000 of an inch of wood,
>> and not one of my projects seem to care.
>
> Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?

My entire post was on topic including the above snippet, while your
response was not. Imagine that, douchebag!

--
Jack
GO GREEN - RECYCLE CONGRESS
http://jbstein.com

On 10/1/2010 2:37 PM, Upscale wrote:

> Bull!

Peace! Timeout! Everyone please find something else to do!!!

RELAX!!! <sigh>

Again, <sigh> ...

Better???

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "GarageWoodworks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>
> I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial
> cuts" saw dust hits the floor.
>
> This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.
>
> I kinda mixed up my answer. I DO NOT make trial cuts to check a fence or
> miter gauge setting, I make trial cuts only when "setting up/tuning " the
> saw or fence. No trial cuts necessary except for those occasions, as few
> and far in between as they seem to be. When working on a project I use an
> electronic tilt box to set up bevel angles but miters and fence settings
> are set strictly by the degree and measurement marks on the tool.
>
>
> Now having said that, IIRC you have a Olson miter gauge.... I would use
> something to verify that tool each time I changed a setting. I had one,
> acutally had 3 of them and could never rely on it/them holding a setting
> when the fence was adjusted to a 45 degree setting with the telescoping
> angle adjustment bar. There was too much play in all 3 units that cause
> the gence angle to deviate by as much as 1 degree. I could actually grab
> the fence and wiggle it back and forth. With the fence at 45 in the other
> dirrection it was rock solid.


May be Osbourne It has been about 8 years since I had one. ;~)

"GarageWoodworks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip


I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial
cuts" saw dust hits the floor.

This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.

I kinda mixed up my answer. I DO NOT make trial cuts to check a fence or
miter gauge setting, I make trial cuts only when "setting up/tuning " the
saw or fence. No trial cuts necessary except for those occasions, as few
and far in between as they seem to be. When working on a project I use an
electronic tilt box to set up bevel angles but miters and fence settings are
set strictly by the degree and measurement marks on the tool.


Now having said that, IIRC you have a Olson miter gauge.... I would use
something to verify that tool each time I changed a setting. I had one,
acutally had 3 of them and could never rely on it/them holding a setting
when the fence was adjusted to a 45 degree setting with the telescoping
angle adjustment bar. There was too much play in all 3 units that cause the
gence angle to deviate by as much as 1 degree. I could actually grab the
fence and wiggle it back and forth. With the fence at 45 in the other
dirrection it was rock solid.



> I do have a dial indicator and used it to check blade alignemnt to the
> miter
> slot and arbor run out on my new cabinet saw, that was 11 years ago. No
> adjustment was necessary and I have not used the dial indicator since.
>
> Further, technique will often completely erase out a dialed in accuracy.
> For instance my miter gauge has positive stops for the common angles and
> it
> makes accurate smooth silky cuts that would satisy any one. When I align
> my
> rip fence to the miter slot you would think that it too would yield the
> same
> results. Not for me, that alignment is the one that I go with trial cuts
> to
> get the smooth and with out tooth mark cuts.

Trial cuts = 'SLOW' and not as accurate.

See above, Trial cuts verify TS tune up, not the cut for a project.

Upscale wrote:
>>> My entire post was on topic including the above snippet, while your
>> response was not. Imagine that, douchebag!
>
> Bull! Half of that "entire" post consisted of you injecting your self
> styled opinion of Obama and his money management practices into the
> discussion. You're so full of shit Jackass, that you reek of it.

I don't understand.

How can an observation of the economic practices and goals of the president
NOT be on-topic? Any topic?

Seems to me that the economic measures of the current administration are
FORCING us to buy cheap Chinese imports.