Hey All,
Previous thread was about my quest for a bigger jointer. On the flip
side I only need somthing that big every now and then. Since I am basically
a normite, with only one (decent) plane in my collection can someone pass on
a bit of wisdom on what plane or planes I might want to tackle the
occasional larger board ?
What would I need to surface and edge large stock - I am assuming a
Jointer would be in order (no 7 or no 8) from the Liew Neilson collection ?
But what about low angle ? Also should I think of getting a scrub and a
good bench plane as well ? I like figured woods and would see doing a lot
of work with them -- would that lead me to a cabinet makers scraper ?
Moving from a (powered) 6" Jointer to and respectible 8" one would cost
~$900 (new cost minus selling of old unit) Can I get a resonable set of
hand planes to do the job for the same sum of money ?
I only mention Lie Nielson since their catalog is sitting on my desk --
any other recommendations for manufacture ?
Thanks
Eric
I'm assuming you've not used hand planes before so
don't get offended if the following questions are way
too basic for your skill level.
1. by "an occassional large board" are we talking long
but narrow "large", very wide but short "large"
or very wide and very long "large"?
(it's a lot easier if you cut larger boards down
to an inch or two longer than finished length
and 3/4 - 1" widerthan finished length. rip
on and bandsaw and cross cut with handsaw if
you can't do it on the bandsaw. getting a shorter
and/or narrower board is easier to get one
face flat and one edge straight than a longer
and/or wider board)
2. do you have a 12" planer?
(taking off the high corners of a cupped board
with a hand plane ain't bad. Taking off the
convex high spot on the other side is a bit
more work. Leave that side to the planer)
3. what shape are you in physically?
(using a #7 or #8 will give you a bit of
a workout. And once you get going and
you get into it you probably will take
of more wood than you need to cause
auto pilot can kick in.)
4. will you be doing the handplaning when it's
warm in the shop?
(doing a half an hour with the #7 or #8 and
a #4 or #5 will work up a sweat in
comfortable temperature ranges. If the
shops hot keep the water bottle handy)
5. do you have a means of holding the large board,
both for straightening one edge and getting
it square to the face AND for getting one face
flat?
(trying to work around clamps is a PITA)
6. do you have what you need to sharpen a plane
iron and do you know how to sharpen a plane
iron?
(the iron(s) may not come sharp and honed and
even if they do you will have to sharpen them
sooner than you think.)
7. do you know how to set up a handplane for
different types of planing?
(you can really tear up a nice board if you
don't know what you're doing so plan on
practicing a bit before having a go at a
board you value)
8. can you look at the grain of a board and tell
which way you should plane or where you
may have to stop and start planing in from the
other direction?
9. do you know how to identify what areas on a
board need removing and how to tell when
you're done?
There's a lot you can do with hand planes and
there are somethings that it's best to do with
hand planes. But be aware that this is a very
slippery slope you're approaching. If you're
not very careful you can end up like O'Deen : )
charlie b
Sam the Cat wrote:
> How long, how wide?
> Long ==> 6 to 10 ft long, 8" wide.
>
> I have been rough cutting to nominal size then using the 6" jointer to
> square and face -- works great until you really need a 8ft long board.
> Jointing a 8' board on a 6" jointer with 44 " tables is a PITA
>
Joining an 8 footer won't be trivial either - but a lot
quieter, a bit more physical exertion and you'll get
in part of your daily walk/jog. There's also a hard
to describe thing that happens when you can feel and
hear and see how the wood and the iron are interacting.
I've never had the "AH!" moments with power tools
that I sometimes get when using hand tools.
> I'd like to think I was in greate shape -- but it sounds like a Jointer
> would be good for me !
Can't hurt. I'm betting that there weren't many out
of shape apprentices prior to power tools.
> > 5. do you have a means of holding the large board,
> > both for straightening one edge and getting
> > it square to the face AND for getting one face
> > flat?
> > (trying to work around clamps is a PITA)
>
> Yes --
A good bench and vise(s) make using handtools a
great deal easier.
Re: sharpening
> Yes -- not sure I am an expert yet, sounds like its time to learn
This'll be another slippery slope - or rather another
part of the hand tools slippery slope. Get Ian Kirby's
little, inexpensive book on sharpening with japanese
water stones. If you get further into hand tools, you
probably will end up getting Mr. Lee's more
comprehensive book on sharpening just about anything
Sounds like you're going to enjoy using hand tools.
Won't be long before you start turning into a galoot.
ENJOY!
charlie b
Once a year, for each class, I would demonstrate preparing a board about 2'
long, 8" wide by scrub scribe and smooth method. That was enough to
convince most that hand planes are for touchup, not stock prep, in the
modern shop.
"patriarch [email protected]>" <<patriarch> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Seriously, this hand plane thing is enjoyable, and addictive. But a lot
> depends on your project patterns, your schedules and deadlines, and the
> size and equipping of your shop.
Sam: you got a lot of good advice in the posts to date. I offer my
experience doing what you seem to say you want to do. I was making a
hard maple chest and had 3 8" wide figured boards I wanted to use for
the top, but hated to rip 'em down to fit my 6" jointer as it would
ruin the effect I wanted. I had over time gathered up a few old
Stanley bench planes, a #4, #5, and #6 (all acquuired for under $25
each, I might add <pat on my own back with grin> and happened to have
an extra iron for the #5. No scrub plane. So I ground the extra #5
iron convex, to mimic the iron of a scrub plane, and used that old
Jack to hog off the high points, and it worked well - followed it up
with the regular ironed #5, used the #6 to get it flatter still and
really did not use the #4 all that much. Got them boards so they were
fairly smooth and didn't rock when I put them on top of the unisaur,
then put them thru my planer for a couple of passes, flipped and
planed the "hand planed" surface. The top came out like a million
bucks. Downside is the boards were 48" long and this is real work
with hard maple, so I worked up a real sweat and aggravated by
bursitis, but my point is that you don't need a bunch of fancy
schmancy planes to get a result when you combine normite and neander
technologies. My 2 cents.
Mutt
"Sam the Cat" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hey All,
> Previous thread was about my quest for a bigger jointer. On the flip
> side I only need somthing that big every now and then. Since I am basically
> a normite, with only one (decent) plane in my collection can someone pass on
> a bit of wisdom on what plane or planes I might want to tackle the
> occasional larger board ?
>
> What would I need to surface and edge large stock - I am assuming a
> Jointer would be in order (no 7 or no 8) from the Liew Neilson collection ?
> But what about low angle ? Also should I think of getting a scrub and a
> good bench plane as well ? I like figured woods and would see doing a lot
> of work with them -- would that lead me to a cabinet makers scraper ?
>
> Moving from a (powered) 6" Jointer to and respectible 8" one would cost
> ~$900 (new cost minus selling of old unit) Can I get a resonable set of
> hand planes to do the job for the same sum of money ?
>
> I only mention Lie Nielson since their catalog is sitting on my desk --
> any other recommendations for manufacture ?
>
> Thanks
> Eric
Hi Eric,
I'm by no means a handplane expert, but it seems that I'm in a similar
situation as you - pretty much a power tool user, but moving towards using
hand tools more often or as needed. I've grown my handplane collection over
the last 12-18 months from about 1 (a POS block plane that I found in my
garage when I moved in) to, let's see, 16!!! and I might've missed one or
two. Anyway, here's my first tip, go to www.woodcentral.com and check out
their hand tool message board. There are a ton of great contributors over
there that can offer you a LOT more help than I can. Do you read Popular
Woodworking? Well, Christopher Schwartz, one of their editors, posts there
all the time and he's answered my questions several times. Rob Lee from Lee
Valley, etc. etc. all seem to be over there.
Anyway, aside from that, which is probably the best information I have for
you, I'd say you're thinking about this the right way. For large boards (as
well as small ones, depending on what you want to do), and assuming you want
to go from rough to ready, you probably want a scrub plane, a jointer,
probably a jack plane and then a smoother. There are many ways to skin this
cat, though, and I won't pretend to know the best way.
As for the $$ issue, you'll probably be surprised (well, I was at least)
that $900 won't buy you as many planes as you'd think - at least not if you
buy new planes from somewhere like Lie-Nielsen. For example, using their
latest catalogue, to buy the above planes (no. 7, 5, 4 and scrub) would run
you $1145 + shipping. So, you have to think that one over.
What I did (and many others out there) was to try and find old Stanley
planes that were in good and usable shape. I found several on ebay, and a
couple local. I did buy a few new planes, though, so I have a pretty good
mix. It probably isn't surprising that the brand new Lie-Nielsen planes
work wonderfully and perfectly right out of the box (save a little honing
perhaps of the irons). The Stanley planes I bought, however, work great
too, just after a bit more tweaking and elbow grease.
The other issue you brought up that I think is important, is that if you
want to work difficult woods, you might need some different planes, or at
least extra blades at steeper angles. So, you never seem to have enough
planes. The myth isn't a myth. Neither is the one about how satisfying it
is to use a good hand plane.
So, anyway, I'm not sure if this information is very helpful or useful -
pretty much stating the obvious - but, my point is mainly that you should
take all your needs/desires into account and then look at all the sources
available and follow your gut. I know I'll have a lot more pleasure
teaching my son (age 10.5 months so I have time to actually learn how to use
all these planes hehe) how to get a wispy shaving from a well-tuned plane
than I will showing him how to use a power planer or jointer and not lose
his fingers.
Mike
Charlie,
Answers intersperesed
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm assuming you've not used hand planes before so
> don't get offended if the following questions are way
> too basic for your skill level.
>
> 1. by "an occassional large board" are we talking long
> but narrow "large", very wide but short "large"
> or very wide and very long "large"?
> (it's a lot easier if you cut larger boards down
> to an inch or two longer than finished length
> and 3/4 - 1" widerthan finished length. rip
> on and bandsaw and cross cut with handsaw if
> you can't do it on the bandsaw. getting a shorter
> and/or narrower board is easier to get one
> face flat and one edge straight than a longer
> and/or wider board)
Long ==> 6 to 10 ft long, 8" wide.
I have been rough cutting to nominal size then using the 6" jointer to
square and face -- works great until you really need a 8ft long board.
Jointing a 8' board on a 6" jointer with 44 " tables is a PITA
>
> 2. do you have a 12" planer?
> (taking off the high corners of a cupped board
> with a hand plane ain't bad. Taking off the
> convex high spot on the other side is a bit
> more work. Leave that side to the planer)
Yes -- not thinking of planing to thickness -- if I can get it close then
the planer will take over
>
> 3. what shape are you in physically?
> (using a #7 or #8 will give you a bit of
> a workout. And once you get going and
> you get into it you probably will take
> of more wood than you need to cause
> auto pilot can kick in.)
I'd like to think I was in greate shape -- but it sounds like a Jointer
would be good for me !
>
> 4. will you be doing the handplaning when it's
> warm in the shop?
> (doing a half an hour with the #7 or #8 and
> a #4 or #5 will work up a sweat in
> comfortable temperature ranges. If the
> shops hot keep the water bottle handy)
>
> 5. do you have a means of holding the large board,
> both for straightening one edge and getting
> it square to the face AND for getting one face
> flat?
> (trying to work around clamps is a PITA)
Yes --
>
> 6. do you have what you need to sharpen a plane
> iron and do you know how to sharpen a plane
> iron?
> (the iron(s) may not come sharp and honed and
> even if they do you will have to sharpen them
> sooner than you think.)
Yes -- not sure I am an expert yet, sounds like its time to learn
>
> 7. do you know how to set up a handplane for
> different types of planing?
> (you can really tear up a nice board if you
> don't know what you're doing so plan on
> practicing a bit before having a go at a
> board you value)
>
> 8. can you look at the grain of a board and tell
> which way you should plane or where you
> may have to stop and start planing in from the
> other direction?
Not yet --
>
> 9. do you know how to identify what areas on a
> board need removing and how to tell when
> you're done?
Pretty much --
>
> There's a lot you can do with hand planes and
> there are somethings that it's best to do with
> hand planes. But be aware that this is a very
> slippery slope you're approaching. If you're
> not very careful you can end up like O'Deen : )
>
> charlie b
"Mike in Mystic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Eric,
>
> I'm by no means a handplane expert, but it seems that I'm in a similar
> situation as you - pretty much a power tool user, but moving towards using
> hand tools more often or as needed. I've grown my handplane collection
over
> the last 12-18 months from about 1 (a POS block plane that I found in my
> garage when I moved in) to, let's see, 16!!! and I might've missed one or
> two. Anyway, here's my first tip, go to www.woodcentral.com and check out
> their hand tool message board. There are a ton of great contributors over
> there that can offer you a LOT more help than I can. Do you read Popular
> Woodworking? Well, Christopher Schwartz, one of their editors, posts
there
> all the time and he's answered my questions several times. Rob Lee from
Lee
> Valley, etc. etc. all seem to be over there.
>
> Anyway, aside from that, which is probably the best information I have for
> you, I'd say you're thinking about this the right way. For large boards
(as
> well as small ones, depending on what you want to do), and assuming you
want
> to go from rough to ready, you probably want a scrub plane, a jointer,
> probably a jack plane and then a smoother. There are many ways to skin
this
> cat, though, and I won't pretend to know the best way.
>
> As for the $$ issue, you'll probably be surprised (well, I was at least)
> that $900 won't buy you as many planes as you'd think - at least not if
you
> buy new planes from somewhere like Lie-Nielsen. For example, using their
> latest catalogue, to buy the above planes (no. 7, 5, 4 and scrub) would
run
> you $1145 + shipping. So, you have to think that one over.
>
> What I did (and many others out there) was to try and find old Stanley
> planes that were in good and usable shape. I found several on ebay, and a
> couple local. I did buy a few new planes, though, so I have a pretty good
> mix. It probably isn't surprising that the brand new Lie-Nielsen planes
> work wonderfully and perfectly right out of the box (save a little honing
> perhaps of the irons). The Stanley planes I bought, however, work great
> too, just after a bit more tweaking and elbow grease.
>
> The other issue you brought up that I think is important, is that if you
> want to work difficult woods, you might need some different planes, or at
> least extra blades at steeper angles. So, you never seem to have enough
> planes. The myth isn't a myth. Neither is the one about how satisfying
it
> is to use a good hand plane.
>
> So, anyway, I'm not sure if this information is very helpful or useful -
> pretty much stating the obvious - but, my point is mainly that you should
> take all your needs/desires into account and then look at all the sources
> available and follow your gut. I know I'll have a lot more pleasure
> teaching my son (age 10.5 months so I have time to actually learn how to
use
> all these planes hehe) how to get a wispy shaving from a well-tuned plane
> than I will showing him how to use a power planer or jointer and not lose
> his fingers.
>
> Mike
>
>
Mike
Appreciate the thoughts. It sounds like you have a mixture of planes
from different sources. One thing I am wondering is the difference between
a Veritas and and Lie Nielson -- I'd like to buy once and be happy -- there
is a signficance between the two (price wise) just wondering if there is
something I'd notice in use or over time ?
Cheers
Eric
charlie b <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
>
> There's a lot you can do with hand planes and
> there are somethings that it's best to do with
> hand planes. But be aware that this is a very
> slippery slope you're approaching. If you're
> not very careful you can end up like O'Deen : )
>
> charlie b
You mean, a trumpet player, contemplating a career in lamp design? ;-)
Seriously, this hand plane thing is enjoyable, and addictive. But a lot
depends on your project patterns, your schedules and deadlines, and the
size and equipping of your shop. The afore-mentioned O'Deen is known for,
amongst other things, open-air woodworking, and wooddorking in the park.
But he resides in California. You can do that more easily here. Hand
tools make for a refreshing portability, when compared to power jointers of
the approximate size of small aircraft carriers.
My current jointer of choice is a very minty Stanley #6, about 40 years
old. When I NEED to face joint something large, rough, and twisty, I haul
it down to the shop at the Adult Ed, and use their Delta 6". I have
feelers out for a classic Delta DJ-20 class jointer, but only at the right
price, and in pristine condition. It may be a while, but I can wait.
Patriarch
Hi Eric,
As to the question comparing Veritas to Lie-Nielsen - there is a difference
in fit and finish (materials used, presentation of these materials, etc.),
but it's a bit of a tough call as to if one is "better" than the other. I
have a few of each of these makers planes - Veritas: scraper plane; medium
shoulder plane; low-angle block plane. Lie-Nielsen: low-angle jack plane;
scrub plane. I also have a Clifton fore plane (#6) that I got a steal on
during a Woodcraft closeout.
The Veritas planes incorporate a lot of really innovative improvements to
classic Stanley (usually) designs, and as far as I've seen they are all
well-thought out and impressively made. I use the low-angle block plane,
with the optional wooden knob and rear handle, as a small smoother from time
to time - it is that versatile. I've only just bought the medium shoulder
plane, but I can tell it is going to be a great tool to use. All the
Veritas planes I have are great and fun to use.
The Lie-Nielsen planes perform as you'd expect (from the price tag!).
There's something more ethereal about using them, though, that is tough to
explain. When I pick up the low-angle jack I feel like I'm driving a
Cadillac or something. The adjustments are all precise and positive. In
practical terms, though, there isn't much of a difference in performance (in
my less than masterful hands anyway) between the two. I bought the LA jack
before Veritas came out with their version only last month. I would
probably have gone with the Veritas simply based on the price difference, as
well as my positive experiences with them in the past. That being said, I'm
probably going to shell out more dinero in the near future for a Lie-Nielsen
smoother. I definately don't need it, but I have decided that driving a
Cadillac every once in a while is worth the extra cash flow - and these
planes will last several lifetimes if well cared for. Some things are worth
it :)
Mike