You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:08:57 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/9/2014 11:27 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> Sure, other than being illegal in many areas, it's dangerous. It's
>> dangerous for the linemen working trying to get your service back (the
>> reason it's illegal) and suicide cords are called that for a reason.
>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>
>> ...as long as. That's the problem. It's too easy to forget.
>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>
>> Yes, it's still a bad idea but not because you're "pushing current
>> backwards". The "current" has no idea which direction it's going.
>> Back-feeding breakers is perfectly normal, often done when wiring
>> sub-panels.
>>
>> Other than frying the linemen, the problem is the suicide cord.
>>
>
>So let me ask this... if you connect a 6k watt generator and forget to
>throw the switch god forbid, do you think your generator will still try
>to feed the grid, mine would simply pop it's own ckt breaker since the
>draw would be too high.
No, there is no guarantee that it'll "simply pop it's (sic) own ckt
breaker". If your line is isolated it'll happily energize it. When
the power dudes show up they will be greatly, and rightfully, pissed.
>As far as ckt breakers working in one direction... Really????
>I live in farm country, I have been running a generator for years
>illegally .... I never had a problem ...
Did you even try to read what was written?
>I do always shut the main off, then all ckts I can't power..
"Always" is a long time. History shows that not all do, so it's
ILLEGAL.
>Brian, it's illegal, but it's done all the time.. put a note on your
>panel door if you are worried you might forget the sequence.
So is murder, does that make it a good idea (one that you promote)?
On 03/09/2014 08:16 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator
>> into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should
>> be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>> restored.
>>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing
>> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance
>> here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>
>>
>>
> I do that.
> First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's legal.
>
> You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
> that's it.
> I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
>
> It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
> regardless.
> The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
> the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
> roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is
> live.
>
>
>
Grid connected solar inverters shut down when the grid goes down - when
they don't have grid power to synchronize with.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
<[email protected]> wrote:
> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator
> into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you
> should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers
> repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding
> when power is restored.
>
> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing
> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance
> here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an
> issue?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Transfer switches exist for a reason.
They are expensive partly because they do a difficult job and require
a considerable amount of hardware.
OTOH, trying to bypass one to save a few $ is shear follly.
Lew
Let me start off by saying that I have never belonged to a labor
union; however, I have benefited from labor union activities.
For example, when the people in the shop got more vacation time or
better hospitalization benefits, the folks in the office (that
included
me), got those benefits.
There is no question that labor unions were allowed to get out of
control starting with big steel in the late '50's.
Frankly that was not labor's fault, but rests squarely in the board
rooms of the major corporations who were directly affected.
They made short term decisions that got labor back working but
in no way addressed the long term needs of the business such
as setting aside capital to modernize facilities and develop new
products to remain competitive.
By the '80's, things had gotten totally out of control. GM had
become an insurance company rather than an auto producer.
Their product line was a disaster.
Steel companies such as US and Bethlehem were gone.
Iacocca didn't have any more silver bullets, Chrysler and
their collection of smaller labels were down to their last gasp.
Reagan started his anti-union program which included
trickle down economics.
Low skill level jobs were moved off shore.
The middle class is quickly slipping into history.
Right to work states have expanded and really have become
what they are, right to work for less states.
FoMoCo would bet the farm, took out tremendous loans,
closed plants and looks like a hero these days.
Did labor play a part in this saga?
Absolutely.
"Feather bedding" was rampant, work rules no longer allowed
management to effectively manage.
A personal example, my home built in 1963, was wired with
knob and tube wiring rather than Romex.
The only other option was conduit.
The union had gotten that concession for wiring residential
buildings under the guise of improved safety.
So should we break up the unions or allow them to die by
attrition.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
People who work in many areas of production need the
protection provided by a labor contract.
Work a shift in the coke plant of a steel mill.
Stand on the pouring platform of a steel mill while a 12" dia
stream of 2,800F molten metal flows into the ingot mold
below the ladle. You're standing less than 10 feet from that
stream of metal. BTDT.
One screw up and you are vapor.
Take a turn in the casting plant where 400+ engine blocks
per hour are cast.
You spend 40 minutes in the plant and 20 minutes outside
cooling off which is how they do it.
Take a turn in a stamping plant that knocks out 58 hoods/hr.
The noise levels are unbelievable.
Try an assembly line that has robots, but also needs some
human power.
I've been in everyone of the above described places,
I wouldn't want to work in any one of them but it's a job and
for what ever reason people do these jobs.
They need to know tat if something happens, their families
are protected.
Moving forward, labor-management relations need to be
developed that are beneficial to all concerned.
Adversarial confrontation won't get the job done any more.
I'm reminded of Lincoln Electric and the book written by
James Lincoln, Incentative Management.
No unions at Lincoln, but how many companies pay out Christmas
bonuses that can often exceed your annual salary?
Lincoln stated that any cost saving be split 3 ways.
1/3 to the customer.
1/3 to the workers.
1/3 to the company.
Just another way of looking at things.
Off the stump
Lew
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:47:20 -0700, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:35:15 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>>>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>>>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>>>> restored.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>>>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>>>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>>>>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>>>>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>>>>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>>>>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>>>>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>>>>> have on big BOOM!
>>>>>
>>>>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>>>>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>>>>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>>>>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>>>>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
>>>
>>> I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
>>> better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
>>> trades)
>>>
>>> I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
>>> collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
>>> circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
>>>
>>> I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
>>> gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
>>> here, please let me know.
>>>
>> Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is
>> 50amp... so he may have been correct.
>>
>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I
>> do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these
>> guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by
>> non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the
>> job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete
>> based on price and timeline.
>
>I've been competing with non-union contractors also. Yes, sometimes they
>pick up jobs and I know from material costs they were undercutting
>themselves and may be trying to make it up on the backend with addons. I
>have not found the union guys any slower, they all know what we are up
>against. So do the union bosses, so they cut us a break.
>
>I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
>redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are paying
>off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually make it a
>level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring illegals, they may
>work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
>
>In the end it won't matter, union or non, the minimum wage will kill us
>all.
BS
My dad was an electrician. Owned his own business. Non Union.
He paid his men the same net they would get on a union job (after
union dues) His men worked for HIM. If things got slow he didn't lay
them off. They got paid full rate sweeping the shop floor, sorting out
the trucks, or whatever. Sometimes the went home early and had time
with their families. But when things picked up, they knew where they
were working, and for whom. And Dad knew who was working for him. Not
like the poor union suckers that got laid off when things were slow,
then waited at the end of the union line, waiting their turn for their
next job - who knows what, where, and foe whom. Turn it down, and you
are back at the end of the line. The job lasts 6 weeks? Back at the
end of the line. That's no damned way to make a living!!!
And the employer? You take the first warm body in the line. If he's no
good, you are stuck with him. Can't even sell the pups. You hire 5
guys, and only the first 2 are any good??? You can't get rid of the
last 3 until the first 2 are gone - seniority and all that.
He got busy and had to hire a few new guys Put up an ad and the union
sent some guys around. Illegal to ask if they are union members All
of a sudden he's in a situation where the union demands certification.
Dad told them if they want to run his business, it's for sale. Pay up
or shut up. He had no union jobs for the (probationary)union men, so
he sent them all home. He and his partner finished the work they had
and shut the doors.
The union picketed the closed shop for over 6 months.
The poor suckers who signed their union cards go to the union to stand
in line for a job, and they don't qualify because they had not been
accepted into the union yet. They were PISSED. Most of them started
their own non-union companies or joined others, AS PARTNERS so the
union couldn't touch them. Dad never had an employee after that, just
worked on his own. In residential that works just fine.
And he had a much lower defect rate than just about any of his union
competition. Union does not mean competent. And minimum wage does not
affect the trades as even labourers are well above minimum wage.
Mabee not in SoCal or Texico, but most certainly in the north.
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 14:59:45 -0400, Keith Nuttle
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/9/2014 12:43 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 03/09/2014 08:16 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator
>>>> into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>
>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should
>>>> be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>> restored.
>>>>
>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing
>>>> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance
>>>> here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an
>>>> issue?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I do that.
>>> First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's
>>> legal.
>>>
>>> You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
>>> that's it.
>>> I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
>>>
>>> It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
>>> regardless.
>>> The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
>>> the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
>>> roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is
>>> live.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Grid connected solar inverters shut down when the grid goes down - when
>> they don't have grid power to synchronize with.
>>
>>
>Similar to wind power, as I understand they need the grid to get the
>turbines turning. Once the wind gets about 12mpg they start producing
>power and reach efficiently about 20-25mph.
It's more than that. If the utility is cut even while it's producing,
the generator will stop. It *needs* the line sync to operate at all.
>As your lineman if there is back feed from a generator. Chances are he
>will tell you his experience with back feed. In some places there must
>be an automatic cut of so when the grid goes down the grid is isolated
>from the generator, and visa versa.
The "cut off" must isolate the line when you're generating power
independently. If you're grid-tied, then you can't generate when the
grid tie is lost. BTW, I *think* (but obviously can't prove the
negative) that it's everywhere. Utilities get very sensitive where
the safety of their crews is concerned. It's dangerous enough without
"help".
Other than frying a line man or gal - but the generator might likely
blow up when the line comes on. The other problem - with the main
turned on you are feeding a transformer on the pole and who knows
the load it has with the neighbors on the high line it connects to.
Martin
On 3/9/2014 10:27 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
> wrote:
>
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> Sure, other than being illegal in many areas, it's dangerous. It's
> dangerous for the linemen working trying to get your service back (the
> reason it's illegal) and suicide cords are called that for a reason.
>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>
> ...as long as. That's the problem. It's too easy to forget.
>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>
> Yes, it's still a bad idea but not because you're "pushing current
> backwards". The "current" has no idea which direction it's going.
> Back-feeding breakers is perfectly normal, often done when wiring
> sub-panels.
>
> Other than frying the linemen, the problem is the suicide cord.
>
[email protected] has brought this to us :
> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a
> drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok.
> This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and
> should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>
> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume
> because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
This completely OFF TOPIC thread gets blead to death 2 or three times
every year. :-@
--
John G
On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>> restored.
>>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>
>
> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>
> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
> have on big BOOM!
>
> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>
> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>
Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
--
Jeff
On 3/9/2014 11:27 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
> wrote:
>
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> Sure, other than being illegal in many areas, it's dangerous. It's
> dangerous for the linemen working trying to get your service back (the
> reason it's illegal) and suicide cords are called that for a reason.
>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>
> ...as long as. That's the problem. It's too easy to forget.
>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>
> Yes, it's still a bad idea but not because you're "pushing current
> backwards". The "current" has no idea which direction it's going.
> Back-feeding breakers is perfectly normal, often done when wiring
> sub-panels.
>
> Other than frying the linemen, the problem is the suicide cord.
>
So let me ask this... if you connect a 6k watt generator and forget to
throw the switch god forbid, do you think your generator will still try
to feed the grid, mine would simply pop it's own ckt breaker since the
draw would be too high.
As far as ckt breakers working in one direction... Really????
I live in farm country, I have been running a generator for years
illegally .... I never had a problem ...
I do always shut the main off, then all ckts I can't power..
Brian, it's illegal, but it's done all the time.. put a note on your
panel door if you are worried you might forget the sequence.
--
Jeff
On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>
>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>> restored.
>>>>
>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>>
>>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>>> have on big BOOM!
>>>
>>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>>
>>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>>
>>
>> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
>
> I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
> better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
> trades)
>
> I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
> collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
> circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
>
> I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
> gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
> here, please let me know.
>
Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is
50amp... so he may have been correct.
My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I
do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these
guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by
non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the
job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete
based on price and timeline.
--
Jeff
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a
> generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
Not as long as your main breaker is off. It's illegal, but not dangerous IF the main breaker is
off. To make it both safe and legal, use a transfer switch or a mechanical interlock, either of
which will enable connecting either the grid or your generator to your panel, but never both
at once.
>
> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you
> should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the
> workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from
> exploding when power is restored.
Correct.
>
> Is this a bad idea?
Yes -- but only because many people do not realize the literally vital importance of shutting
off the main breaker.
A few years ago, a falling tree limb took out the line from the pole to our house. As it was
pretty cold out at the time, and SWMBO wanted heat, I hooked up the generator (backfed,
with the main breaker off). It was still running when the power company guys showed up. I
asked the crew chief if he wanted me to turn off the generator while they made repairs. He
asked, "Is your main breaker open?" Understanding the question he did *not* ask, too --
whether I knew enough to understand what he meant -- I responded, "Yes, it's off." He told
me I could leave it running. I'm sure they checked the lines anyway.
> Is there any problems arising from pushing
> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my
> ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating
> this is not an issue?
No problem with the current direction. It's done frequently to feed subpanels.
On 3/10/2014 3:18 PM, Pete wrote:
>
> OSHA means little unless someone on the job squeals. Insurance companies
> and their requirements/premium schedule often do a better job.
>
> Lazy people on the west coast are terminated by various means. The laziest
> people are the sons of non-union owners.
>
We have annual inspections by insurance carriers, both workman's comp.
and building insurance. OSHA does have a good side though, and they
have overall made the workplace safer. I don't agree with every rule
though.
Last union shop I worked at, the workers were exploited by the union.
The business manager would drive up in his big Caddy paid for by the
dues of unskilled workers. To give you an idea how bad this union was,
we paid the workers about 20% more than called for in the contract.
Union boss only wanted the contribution to the unions health and welfare
benefit.
As for the boss's son being lazy, that is true in at least 80% of family
owned businesses from what I've seen. Dad builds up a business for 30
years, dies, and the kids run it into the ground in six months.
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 09:26:04 -0600, Brewster <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/9/14 8:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Just to answer your last question, only if the breakers in the current
>path are rated for back feeding. Non back feed breakers are usually
>marked with an arrow or other indicator of current flow.
>
>-Bruce
>
>--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
I've never seen one rated as backfeed - although they likely exist -
and I've never seen one you could not backfeed (other than an AF
breaker or GFCI) (althogh such an item likely DOES exist)
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:16:29 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>
>>
>>
>I do that.
>First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's legal.
>
>You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
>that's it.
>I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
>
>It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
>regardless.
Wrong, on both accounts. It is *precisely* to protect line workers.
Solar collectors *only* produce power when they're connected to the
line. They need the line to synchronize the inverter. You won't find
a line connected solar system that will even produce power when it's
not line connected. They're useless as emergency power.
>The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
>the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
>roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is live.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and "shit happens". DONT DO THAT!
woodchucker <[email protected]> writes:
>On 3/10/2014 11:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 3/10/2014 10:35 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous.
>>
>> If it was 1930, I'd be a Union organizer. The did a lot of good for the
>> workers. In the 1960s and on, they did more for themselves than the
>> workers. Never joined one, never will. I've got stories from the
>> negotiating table.
>>
>
>I had to join one in my younger days, they were more about collecting
>dues... and the union, some of these guys were fat cats not interested
>in anything but their fat paychecks..
>
>The motto was slow down...
>If you worked too hard (just barely working) you got swatted for working
>too hard, and not being a good union guy.
>
>I never wanted to work for a union again. Think about it, union is about
>as un American as it gets... more like a communistic system. Everyone
>gets the same wage regardless of their effort.. or lack of it.
>
Pre-OSHA, unions had a purpose. Remember the company store? The death
rate in mines? Ever read _The Jungle_?
Since OSHA, unions are, as you say, make-work programs for the lazy.
On 3/10/2014 4:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:47:20 -0700, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:35:15 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>>>>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>>>>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>>>>> restored.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>>>>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>>>>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>>>>>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>>>>>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>>>>>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>>>>>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>>>>>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>>>>>> have on big BOOM!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>>>>>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>>>>>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>>>>>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>>>>>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
>>>>
>>>> I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
>>>> better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
>>>> trades)
>>>>
>>>> I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
>>>> collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
>>>> circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
>>>>
>>>> I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
>>>> gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
>>>> here, please let me know.
>>>>
>>> Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is
>>> 50amp... so he may have been correct.
>>>
>>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I
>>> do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these
>>> guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by
>>> non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the
>>> job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete
>>> based on price and timeline.
>>
>> I've been competing with non-union contractors also. Yes, sometimes they
>> pick up jobs and I know from material costs they were undercutting
>> themselves and may be trying to make it up on the backend with addons. I
>> have not found the union guys any slower, they all know what we are up
>> against. So do the union bosses, so they cut us a break.
>>
>> I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
>> redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are paying
>> off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually make it a
>> level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring illegals, they may
>> work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
>>
>> In the end it won't matter, union or non, the minimum wage will kill us
>> all.
> BS
> My dad was an electrician. Owned his own business. Non Union.
> He paid his men the same net they would get on a union job (after
> union dues) His men worked for HIM. If things got slow he didn't lay
> them off. They got paid full rate sweeping the shop floor, sorting out
> the trucks, or whatever. Sometimes the went home early and had time
> with their families. But when things picked up, they knew where they
> were working, and for whom. And Dad knew who was working for him. Not
> like the poor union suckers that got laid off when things were slow,
> then waited at the end of the union line, waiting their turn for their
> next job - who knows what, where, and foe whom. Turn it down, and you
> are back at the end of the line. The job lasts 6 weeks? Back at the
> end of the line. That's no damned way to make a living!!!
>
> And the employer? You take the first warm body in the line. If he's no
> good, you are stuck with him. Can't even sell the pups. You hire 5
> guys, and only the first 2 are any good??? You can't get rid of the
> last 3 until the first 2 are gone - seniority and all that.
>
> He got busy and had to hire a few new guys Put up an ad and the union
> sent some guys around. Illegal to ask if they are union members All
> of a sudden he's in a situation where the union demands certification.
> Dad told them if they want to run his business, it's for sale. Pay up
> or shut up. He had no union jobs for the (probationary)union men, so
> he sent them all home. He and his partner finished the work they had
> and shut the doors.
> The union picketed the closed shop for over 6 months.
>
> The poor suckers who signed their union cards go to the union to stand
> in line for a job, and they don't qualify because they had not been
> accepted into the union yet. They were PISSED. Most of them started
> their own non-union companies or joined others, AS PARTNERS so the
> union couldn't touch them. Dad never had an employee after that, just
> worked on his own. In residential that works just fine.
>
> And he had a much lower defect rate than just about any of his union
> competition. Union does not mean competent. And minimum wage does not
> affect the trades as even labourers are well above minimum wage.
>
> Mabee not in SoCal or Texico, but most certainly in the north.
>
And that's the way it is now.. it's a shame.
All the politicians pander to union, something that to them makes sense,
but kills the USA as a competitor.
Want to be better, don't join a union.
Want to be a slacker.. join a union.
It is how communism is.. while I don't care about communism, I'm not one
of these McCarthy types, it fosters that everyone is equal, whether you
work hard or not.. so why should you work hard...
--
Jeff
On 3/10/2014 10:35 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>
> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous.
If it was 1930, I'd be a Union organizer. The did a lot of good for the
workers. In the 1960s and on, they did more for themselves than the
workers. Never joined one, never will. I've got stories from the
negotiating table.
On 3/10/2014 11:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/10/2014 10:35 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>
>>
>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous.
>
> If it was 1930, I'd be a Union organizer. The did a lot of good for the
> workers. In the 1960s and on, they did more for themselves than the
> workers. Never joined one, never will. I've got stories from the
> negotiating table.
>
I had to join one in my younger days, they were more about collecting
dues... and the union, some of these guys were fat cats not interested
in anything but their fat paychecks..
The motto was slow down...
If you worked too hard (just barely working) you got swatted for working
too hard, and not being a good union guy.
I never wanted to work for a union again. Think about it, union is about
as un American as it gets... more like a communistic system. Everyone
gets the same wage regardless of their effort.. or lack of it.
--
Jeff
On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
Sure, other than being illegal in many areas, it's dangerous. It's
dangerous for the linemen working trying to get your service back (the
reason it's illegal) and suicide cords are called that for a reason.
>I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
...as long as. That's the problem. It's too easy to forget.
>Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
Yes, it's still a bad idea but not because you're "pushing current
backwards". The "current" has no idea which direction it's going.
Back-feeding breakers is perfectly normal, often done when wiring
sub-panels.
Other than frying the linemen, the problem is the suicide cord.
On 3/9/14 8:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>
> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>
>
>
Just to answer your last question, only if the breakers in the current
path are rated for back feeding. Non back feed breakers are usually
marked with an arrow or other indicator of current flow.
-Bruce
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 3/9/2014 12:43 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 03/09/2014 08:16 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator
>>> into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should
>>> be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>> restored.
>>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing
>>> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance
>>> here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an
>>> issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I do that.
>> First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's
>> legal.
>>
>> You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
>> that's it.
>> I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
>>
>> It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
>> regardless.
>> The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
>> the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
>> roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is
>> live.
>>
>>
>>
> Grid connected solar inverters shut down when the grid goes down - when
> they don't have grid power to synchronize with.
>
>
Similar to wind power, as I understand they need the grid to get the
turbines turning. Once the wind gets about 12mpg they start producing
power and reach efficiency about 20-25mph.
As your lineman if there is back feed from a generator. Chances are he
will tell you his experience with back feed. In some places there must
be an automatic cut of so when the grid goes down the grid is isolated
from the generator, and visa versa.
On 3/9/2014 1:08 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 3/9/2014 11:27 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator
>>> into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> Sure, other than being illegal in many areas, it's dangerous. It's
>> dangerous for the linemen working trying to get your service back (the
>> reason it's illegal) and suicide cords are called that for a reason.
>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should
>>> be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers
>>> repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding
>>> when power is restored.
>>
>> ...as long as. That's the problem. It's too easy to forget.
>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing
>>> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance
>>> here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an
>>> issue?
>>
>> Yes, it's still a bad idea but not because you're "pushing current
>> backwards". The "current" has no idea which direction it's going.
>> Back-feeding breakers is perfectly normal, often done when wiring
>> sub-panels.
>>
>> Other than frying the linemen, the problem is the suicide cord.
>>
>
> So let me ask this... if you connect a 6k watt generator and forget to
> throw the switch god forbid, do you think your generator will still try
> to feed the grid, mine would simply pop it's own ckt breaker since the
> draw would be too high.
>
> As far as ckt breakers working in one direction... Really????
> I live in farm country, I have been running a generator for years
> illegally .... I never had a problem ...
> I do always shut the main off, then all ckts I can't power..
>
> Brian, it's illegal, but it's done all the time.. put a note on your
> panel door if you are worried you might forget the sequence.
>
>
Can you insure that in a lost power situation that the lineman will
NEVER be put into a situation where he comes in contact with the power
from the generator. Remember he only has to be knocked from the pole
to get killed.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>> restored.
>>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>
>>
>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>
>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>> have on big BOOM!
>>
>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>
>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>
>
> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
trades)
I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
here, please let me know.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:35:15 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>>> restored.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>>>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>>>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>>>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>>>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>>>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>>>> have on big BOOM!
>>>>
>>>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>>>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>>>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>>>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>>>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>>>
>>>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
>>
>> I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
>> better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
>> trades)
>>
>> I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
>> collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
>> circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
>>
>> I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
>> gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
>> here, please let me know.
>>
> Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is
> 50amp... so he may have been correct.
>
> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I
> do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these
> guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by
> non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the
> job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete
> based on price and timeline.
I've been competing with non-union contractors also. Yes, sometimes they
pick up jobs and I know from material costs they were undercutting
themselves and may be trying to make it up on the backend with addons. I
have not found the union guys any slower, they all know what we are up
against. So do the union bosses, so they cut us a break.
I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are paying
off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually make it a
level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring illegals, they may
work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
In the end it won't matter, union or non, the minimum wage will kill us
all.
Pete wrote:
>
> I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
> redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are
> paying off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually
> make it a level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring
> illegals, they may work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
>
That is just pure crap. There are plenty of non-union shops out there that
do a first rate professional job. I've followed union workers and corrected
their mistakes as well. Maybe where you live the issue with illegals is a
real issue but you should probably expand your horizons - not every place
suffers that problem.
It's great if you believe in your union, but please... spare us the union
mantra. It's pure bull.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:19:41 -0400, Mike Marlow
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Pete wrote:
>
>>
>> I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
>> redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are
>> paying off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually
>> make it a level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring
>> illegals, they may work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
>>
>
> That is just pure crap. There are plenty of non-union shops out there that
> do a first rate professional job. I've followed union workers and corrected
> their mistakes as well. Maybe where you live the issue with illegals is a
> real issue but you should probably expand your horizons - not every place
> suffers that problem.
>
> It's great if you believe in your union, but please... spare us the union
> mantra. It's pure bull.
LOL, Wow are you guys sensitive about it. It just happens to be another way
of doing business. Yes, I have found top notch people in small shops, the
lousy ones go bust. When bidding on large commercial or industrial jobs
unless specified otherwise it is Union, and where they do allow non-union
companies they now require the employer to pay union scale or near it, plus
their employees must meet certain experience levels, near to union training
and often verified training in certain area's.
They had to do this because the non-union owners were short sheeting their
employee's and pocketing the difference in wages.
In the Union you are allowed to pay over scale, its managements call. I
have done that to get and keep the best of the best and was never sorry
that I did.
Illegal's are a huge problem and mostly caused by small shops taking
advantage of them. They are now in most every trade. Consider yourself
fortunate if you don't have to compete against the scum that takes
advantage of them.
Union or not, my advice to the original poster remains the same. I have
seen panels blow up and frying one to two people in the process. It is not
a pretty picture.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:41:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> writes:
>>On 3/10/2014 11:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 3/10/2014 10:35 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>>>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>>>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous.
>>>
>>> If it was 1930, I'd be a Union organizer. The did a lot of good for the
>>> workers. In the 1960s and on, they did more for themselves than the
>>> workers. Never joined one, never will. I've got stories from the
>>> negotiating table.
>>>
>>
>>I had to join one in my younger days, they were more about collecting
>>dues... and the union, some of these guys were fat cats not interested
>>in anything but their fat paychecks..
>>
>>The motto was slow down...
>>If you worked too hard (just barely working) you got swatted for working
>>too hard, and not being a good union guy.
>>
>>I never wanted to work for a union again. Think about it, union is about
>>as un American as it gets... more like a communistic system. Everyone
>>gets the same wage regardless of their effort.. or lack of it.
>>
>
> Pre-OSHA, unions had a purpose. Remember the company store? The death
> rate in mines? Ever read _The Jungle_?
>
> Since OSHA, unions are, as you say, make-work programs for the lazy.
OSHA means little unless someone on the job squeals. Insurance companies
and their requirements/premium schedule often do a better job.
Lazy people on the west coast are terminated by various means. The laziest
people are the sons of non-union owners.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 15:42:08 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/10/2014 3:18 PM, Pete wrote:
>
>>
>> OSHA means little unless someone on the job squeals. Insurance companies
>> and their requirements/premium schedule often do a better job.
>>
>> Lazy people on the west coast are terminated by various means. The laziest
>> people are the sons of non-union owners.
>>
>
> We have annual inspections by insurance carriers, both workman's comp.
> and building insurance. OSHA does have a good side though, and they
> have overall made the workplace safer. I don't agree with every rule
> though.
>
I'm in line with your here.
> Last union shop I worked at, the workers were exploited by the union.
> The business manager would drive up in his big Caddy paid for by the
> dues of unskilled workers. To give you an idea how bad this union was,
> we paid the workers about 20% more than called for in the contract.
> Union boss only wanted the contribution to the unions health and welfare
> benefit.
>
I have seen similar, but it was usually someone in the Union being bought
off to keep new contracts down via minimal wage increase or health
benefits. I despised those guys.
> As for the boss's son being lazy, that is true in at least 80% of family
> owned businesses from what I've seen. Dad builds up a business for 30
> years, dies, and the kids run it into the ground in six months.
Sad but true. The odd thing is that sometimes one son will but heads with
their day, and hard until they leave and go work elsewhere. When they do
about ten years down the road they make up with their dads since they found
out what makes businesses work, those are the ones who do well. Even if
they lose part of the business to lazy brothers they will survive to carry
on the family name.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:37:35 -0400, <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:47:20 -0700, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:35:15 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>>>>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>>>>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>>>>> restored.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>>>>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>>>>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>>>>>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>>>>>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>>>>>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>>>>>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>>>>>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>>>>>> have on big BOOM!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>>>>>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>>>>>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>>>>>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>>>>>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
>>>>
>>>> I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
>>>> better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
>>>> trades)
>>>>
>>>> I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
>>>> collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
>>>> circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
>>>>
>>>> I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
>>>> gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
>>>> here, please let me know.
>>>>
>>> Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is
>>> 50amp... so he may have been correct.
>>>
>>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I
>>> do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these
>>> guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by
>>> non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the
>>> job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete
>>> based on price and timeline.
>>
>>I've been competing with non-union contractors also. Yes, sometimes they
>>pick up jobs and I know from material costs they were undercutting
>>themselves and may be trying to make it up on the backend with addons. I
>>have not found the union guys any slower, they all know what we are up
>>against. So do the union bosses, so they cut us a break.
>>
>>I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
>>redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are paying
>>off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually make it a
>>level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring illegals, they may
>>work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
>>
>>In the end it won't matter, union or non, the minimum wage will kill us
>>all.
> BS
Really? 15 bucks minimum wage, for no skill and no motivation? It'll kill
everyone.
> My dad was an electrician. Owned his own business. Non Union.
> He paid his men the same net they would get on a union job (after
> union dues) His men worked for HIM. If things got slow he didn't lay
> them off. They got paid full rate sweeping the shop floor, sorting out
> the trucks, or whatever. Sometimes the went home early and had time
> with their families. But when things picked up, they knew where they
> were working, and for whom. And Dad knew who was working for him. Not
> like the poor union suckers that got laid off when things were slow,
> then waited at the end of the union line, waiting their turn for their
> next job - who knows what, where, and foe whom. Turn it down, and you
> are back at the end of the line. The job lasts 6 weeks? Back at the
> end of the line. That's no damned way to make a living!!!
>
> And the employer? You take the first warm body in the line. If he's no
> good, you are stuck with him. Can't even sell the pups. You hire 5
> guys, and only the first 2 are any good??? You can't get rid of the
> last 3 until the first 2 are gone - seniority and all that.
>
We keep the best, slow times and busy, if it is really really slow and we
start bleeding then we'll let the best go to a friendly competitor that
will allow them to return. We have a right of refusal. limited, but for
good reason. We don't have to keep slackers.
> He got busy and had to hire a few new guys Put up an ad and the union
> sent some guys around. Illegal to ask if they are union members All
> of a sudden he's in a situation where the union demands certification.
> Dad told them if they want to run his business, it's for sale. Pay up
> or shut up. He had no union jobs for the (probationary)union men, so
> he sent them all home. He and his partner finished the work they had
> and shut the doors.
> The union picketed the closed shop for over 6 months.
>
> The poor suckers who signed their union cards go to the union to stand
> in line for a job, and they don't qualify because they had not been
> accepted into the union yet. They were PISSED. Most of them started
> their own non-union companies or joined others, AS PARTNERS so the
> union couldn't touch them. Dad never had an employee after that, just
> worked on his own. In residential that works just fine.
>
I understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent as well, but there
are many benefits to be had for both the business and the employee with the
Union. Regardless of how many places they worked they have the same pension
plan, and 30 years in the pension one does just fine, not as good as gov't
workers, but fine. Your Dad has to be extra wise to even approx those
bennies.
I see many two man shops, that do well, economically you either have to
stay small or go large, there are no long term in betweens.
> And he had a much lower defect rate than just about any of his union
> competition. Union does not mean competent. And minimum wage does not
> affect the trades as even labourers are well above minimum wage.
>
> Mabee not in SoCal or Texico, but most certainly in the north.
Right now only the utility men are at the bottom near that setting and no
benefits. But the talk seems to be going to 15 nation wide.
There are pluses and minuses in everything, we should just do what we think
is best. I know out trade schools with the unions here are the best thing
going for the guys in the trades, plus training is a lifelong update and
most guys, the ones that care, get the specialized and update training most
every year. It is also a way of them making more money.
Wish you well.
On 3/9/14 11:17 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 09:26:04 -0600, Brewster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 3/9/14 8:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just to answer your last question, only if the breakers in the current
>> path are rated for back feeding. Non back feed breakers are usually
>> marked with an arrow or other indicator of current flow.
>>
>> -Bruce
>>
>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
> I've never seen one rated as backfeed - although they likely exist -
> and I've never seen one you could not backfeed (other than an AF
> breaker or GFCI) (althogh such an item likely DOES exist)
>
I believe the common 'marking' to look for is a breaker marked 'line'
and 'load' (non-backfeed), otherwise there is no restriction.
-Bruce
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 3/9/14 9:39 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:16:29 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I do that.
>> First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's legal.
>>
>> You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
>> that's it.
>> I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
>>
>> It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
>> regardless.
>
> Wrong, on both accounts. It is *precisely* to protect line workers.
> Solar collectors *only* produce power when they're connected to the
> line. They need the line to synchronize the inverter.
This is part of UL 1741.
You won't find
> a line connected solar system that will even produce power when it's
> not line connected. They're useless as emergency power.
There are solar inverter systems that will charge batteries while
connected and feeding the grid. When power fails, they invert the
batteries and can feed loads in your house just like a generator system.
-Bruce
>
>> The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
>> the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
>> roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is live.
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong, and "shit happens". DONT DO THAT!
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>Is this a bad idea?
Yes it is. But it would work.
Mark
On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:47:04 -0700, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:37:35 -0400, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:47:20 -0700, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:35:15 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:52:39 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
>>>>>>>> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
>>>>>>>> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
>>>>>>>> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
>>>>>>>> restored.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
>>>>>>>> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
>>>>>>>> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
>>>>>>> contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
>>>>>>> circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
>>>>>>> switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
>>>>>>> have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
>>>>>>> power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
>>>>>>> have on big BOOM!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
>>>>>>> and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
>>>>>>> you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
>>>>>>> electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
>>>>>>> manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
>>>>>
>>>>> I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program,
>>>>> better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the
>>>>> trades)
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar
>>>>> collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier
>>>>> circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to
>>>>> gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something
>>>>> here, please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>> Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is
>>>> 50amp... so he may have been correct.
>>>>
>>>> My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this
>>>> country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union
>>>> business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I
>>>> do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these
>>>> guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by
>>>> non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the
>>>> job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete
>>>> based on price and timeline.
>>>
>>>I've been competing with non-union contractors also. Yes, sometimes they
>>>pick up jobs and I know from material costs they were undercutting
>>>themselves and may be trying to make it up on the backend with addons. I
>>>have not found the union guys any slower, they all know what we are up
>>>against. So do the union bosses, so they cut us a break.
>>>
>>>I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally
>>>redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are paying
>>>off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually make it a
>>>level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring illegals, they may
>>>work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
>>>
>>>In the end it won't matter, union or non, the minimum wage will kill us
>>>all.
>> BS
>
>Really? 15 bucks minimum wage, for no skill and no motivation? It'll kill
>everyone.
>
>> My dad was an electrician. Owned his own business. Non Union.
>> He paid his men the same net they would get on a union job (after
>> union dues) His men worked for HIM. If things got slow he didn't lay
>> them off. They got paid full rate sweeping the shop floor, sorting out
>> the trucks, or whatever. Sometimes the went home early and had time
>> with their families. But when things picked up, they knew where they
>> were working, and for whom. And Dad knew who was working for him. Not
>> like the poor union suckers that got laid off when things were slow,
>> then waited at the end of the union line, waiting their turn for their
>> next job - who knows what, where, and foe whom. Turn it down, and you
>> are back at the end of the line. The job lasts 6 weeks? Back at the
>> end of the line. That's no damned way to make a living!!!
>>
>> And the employer? You take the first warm body in the line. If he's no
>> good, you are stuck with him. Can't even sell the pups. You hire 5
>> guys, and only the first 2 are any good??? You can't get rid of the
>> last 3 until the first 2 are gone - seniority and all that.
>>
>
>We keep the best, slow times and busy, if it is really really slow and we
>start bleeding then we'll let the best go to a friendly competitor that
>will allow them to return. We have a right of refusal. limited, but for
>good reason. We don't have to keep slackers.
>
That's not how it works with the Unions up here. If you let a guy with
higher seniority go ahead of lower seniority you get the union on your
neck. If you pay a good worker more than a slacker, they are on you
like flies on a turd. Grievances up the ying-yang.
>
>> He got busy and had to hire a few new guys Put up an ad and the union
>> sent some guys around. Illegal to ask if they are union members All
>> of a sudden he's in a situation where the union demands certification.
>> Dad told them if they want to run his business, it's for sale. Pay up
>> or shut up. He had no union jobs for the (probationary)union men, so
>> he sent them all home. He and his partner finished the work they had
>> and shut the doors.
>> The union picketed the closed shop for over 6 months.
>>
>> The poor suckers who signed their union cards go to the union to stand
>> in line for a job, and they don't qualify because they had not been
>> accepted into the union yet. They were PISSED. Most of them started
>> their own non-union companies or joined others, AS PARTNERS so the
>> union couldn't touch them. Dad never had an employee after that, just
>> worked on his own. In residential that works just fine.
>>
>
>I understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent as well, but there
>are many benefits to be had for both the business and the employee with the
>Union. Regardless of how many places they worked they have the same pension
>plan, and 30 years in the pension one does just fine, not as good as gov't
>workers, but fine. Your Dad has to be extra wise to even approx those
>bennies.
>
>I see many two man shops, that do well, economically you either have to
>stay small or go large, there are no long term in betweens.
>
>> And he had a much lower defect rate than just about any of his union
>> competition. Union does not mean competent. And minimum wage does not
>> affect the trades as even labourers are well above minimum wage.
>>
>> Mabee not in SoCal or Texico, but most certainly in the north.
>
>Right now only the utility men are at the bottom near that setting and no
>benefits. But the talk seems to be going to 15 nation wide.
>
>There are pluses and minuses in everything, we should just do what we think
>is best. I know out trade schools with the unions here are the best thing
>going for the guys in the trades, plus training is a lifelong update and
>most guys, the ones that care, get the specialized and update training most
>every year. It is also a way of them making more money.
>
>Wish you well.
On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:14:12 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator
>> into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you
>> should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers
>> repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding
>> when power is restored.
>>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing
>> current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance
>> here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an
>> issue?
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Transfer switches exist for a reason.
>
>They are expensive partly because they do a difficult job and require
>a considerable amount of hardware.
>
>OTOH, trying to bypass one to save a few $ is shear follly.
>
>Lew
>
An "interlock" exists for just this application
uses normal breakers and a mechanical interlock that makes it
impossible to turn on the generator breaker with the main on, and
imossible to turn the main on with the generator on.. The only
difference is you don't use the dryer "plug", you use a generator plug
(male plug_ so you don't need a "suicide cord" or "widdowmaker".
On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into
> a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be
> ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing
> service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is
> restored.
>
> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current
> backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I
> assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>
It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line
contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding
circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on
switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you
have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that
power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might
have on big BOOM!
To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this
and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of
you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly
electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can
manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:16:29 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>
>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>
>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>
>>
>>
>I do that.
>First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's legal.
>
>You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
>that's it.
>I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
>
>It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
>regardless.
>The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
>the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
>roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is live.
Wrong on both counts. It IS to protect the workers (although only a
very limites scenario could ever really cause a danger) and the solar
systems do NOT put power out the line in case of a grid failure
because they are"grid tie - and only put power out when power comes in
(simple explanation of a complex system)
< snips >
>>>
>>> Other than frying the linemen, the problem is the suicide cord.
>>>
>>
>> So let me ask this... if you connect a 6k watt generator and forget to
>> throw the switch god forbid, do you think your generator will still try
>> to feed the grid, mine would simply pop it's own ckt breaker since the
>> draw would be too high.
>>
>>
>Can you insure that in a lost power situation that the lineman will
>NEVER be put into a situation where he comes in contact with the power
>from the generator. Remember he only has to be knocked from the pole
>to get killed.
If your generator was back-feeding to an open circuit
at the end of your driveway - thus not feeding any other loads - -
the hazard exists.
John T.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 13:17:48 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 09:26:04 -0600, Brewster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 3/9/14 8:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>>>
>>> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>>>
>>> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Just to answer your last question, only if the breakers in the current
>>path are rated for back feeding. Non back feed breakers are usually
>>marked with an arrow or other indicator of current flow.
>>
>>-Bruce
>>
>>--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
> I've never seen one rated as backfeed - although they likely exist -
>and I've never seen one you could not backfeed (other than an AF
>breaker or GFCI) (althogh such an item likely DOES exist)
I don't see how a common breaker *could* know which side is which
(GFCI, obviously, an exception).
On 3/9/2014 10:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> You guys ever heard of problems arising from backfeeding a generator into a drier 220V (30 amp) circuit?
>
> I've read that as long as the circuit breaker panel is OFF you should be ok. This will prevent sending current out to the workers repairing service and should prevent the generator from exploding when power is restored.
>
> Is this a bad idea? Is there any problems arising from pushing current backwards through a breasker (probably showing my ignorance here)? I assume because the current is alternating this is not an issue?
>
>
>
I do that.
First it's illegal.. but I don't care. If you use a lockout ckt it's legal.
You can only power what the dryer line can handle. so if you have 30amp,
that's it.
I have to shut my water heater, and water pump since both are higher.
It's not to protect the workers.. the solar collectors send voltage out
regardless.
The real problem is overloading your generator.. The old statement about
the workers doesn't work when you think how many solar panels are up on
roofs these days. The workers always have to treat the line like it is live.
--
Jeff