The Perils of Working For Friends

There is no worry of finding work. If you came here right now, you would
have a job within 2 hours of beginning your search. Walk in to any of the
industrial parks round here and start handing out resumes then pick what you
like. In a couple of years, things will likely cool down a bit. It might
take as long as 2 days by that time. I have lived in seven different states
from my birthplace, Maine, to here in Washington. This is where I am going
to stay. Yes, I like it here. It rains a lot but you get used to that. The
temperature fluctuations are not extreme from season to season. There is
enough terrain variation in this state to accommodate about anything you
want to do. Hiking, biking, boating, skiing, hunting, fishing (fresh or
saltwater), hot air ballooning, paragliding, hangliding. About anything you
could want. I think you'd like it here.

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:40:38 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Want to move to Seattle? We don't have any lasers or(CNC) punch presses
but
> >mills, lathes and waterjet. Experience on these machines not required,
> >ability to learn is. We will train.
>
> Actually, I really do- the wife and I have been discussing
> relocating, and Seattle and Portland made the top slots on the list.
> You like it out there?
>
> Ahh, now you've got that idea rearing it's head again. Tell you what-
> if you're still looking in about a year and nine months (when the wife
> finishes her degree,) you might just have yourself a new machinist in
> the area. Worrying about finding work right away has been the biggest
> concern we've had over the idea- I'm far past the stage where starving
> and sleeping in a tent seems like an adventure to me!
>

[email protected] wrote:


>you. People who treat me like their personal 'nigger' get zip.
>Appologies for the 'nigger.

Saying "people who treat me as their personal slave get zip" would
probably convey the idea without offense or need to apologize.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 18:05:34 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>" At this point in time" makes perfect sense. I don't agree on this.
>If one were to say "at this point", he did not Most of the time, the
>specify what point he was referring to. It could "point" is clear from
>be a point in the room, a point in the galaxy, context.
>the point on his head. By saying "at this point
>in time", he is specifying a specific point. Kind Would you prefer it if
>of like a car salesman standing in front of a lot he said, "this car here
>of 500 cars and saying "this car is the best is the best deal..."? That's
>deal on the lot". Which car? He didn't say. as bad as ATM machine,
in my opinion.

Love this side posting. Thanks for suggesting it.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"woodpassion" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

I'm shocked. Define "friend". That's just plain rude. I had two buddies come
over with circular saws and crowbars so the 3 of us could rip out 300 sq.ft.
of the three layers of flooring in our liviingroom when we moved into our
house. My wife went out and got a huge pile of food for the whole day, as
well as a carload of beer to go with the power tools.

woodpassion wrote:
...
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out ...

I'd say this "friendship" is pretty one-sided from this story.

I'm with the others that it almost certainly will not be a good
experience to try to do work for them as a contractor given their
demonstrated miserliness is far more important to them than your value
to them as a friend...

If you do decide to take it on, I suggest strongly you do it only on
your terms with which you are comfortable as a "take it or leave it"
choice and have a written contract of what is covered specifically as
once it gets to be money, these people are going to be sticklers and
friendship will have no bearing on it (other than using you as far as
you will let them which they have already demonstrated. Of course, you
so far having been an apparently willing accomplice.)

woodpassion wrote:
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several occasions while I was slaving away in their basement.
> Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
> have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
> not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.
>
>
>
>
> --
> woodpassion

I definitely would not do it. Not to digress, but the work I do is a
funny thing along these lines. I'm a systems/network engineer, and I'm
sure there are a good many people out there that do similar work. For
some reason people never have a problem asking me to "take a look at
something weird their system is doing" while you are there for a social
visit (dinner, drinks, etc). Of course, 4 hours later (min), it is all
straightened out. This most would have probably cost them $100 to $200
dollars to get it done by somebody a LOT less qualified somewhere else.
But other then a quick "oh thanks", there is little appreciation.
Now, these same people would never ask plumber friend to fix the hot
water heater or unclog the toilet. They wouldn't ask my wife (an RN)
to look at a rash and treat it. Something about computer work, people
just figure, "he'd love to fix it, he's a geek..."

Anyway, back to your deal, I agree with the other poster. Beg off on
it and maybe recommend somebody (exxxxxxpeeeeensive) to do it. Perhaps
they will see the error of their ways.

Just out of curiosity, what do these people do for work?

-Jim

Don't do it! Getting paid will make the situation worse because then
they will have even higher expectations.

Mark

Howdy...Always a dicey proposition when you work for friends... I tend
to work with not for, but you never know...

What you can do is take a look at your local paper and see if there are
any "Handyman" ads in the classifieds or in your phone book and see if
there are any listed there. Make a discreet inquiry call to either and
it should give you a decent idea of what your area will pay.

Good luck!!!

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> woodpassion wrote:
> > So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> > remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> > paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> > worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> > hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> > think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> > this site.
>
>
> I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to do the
> work for them at any price.

Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
problems on both sides.

woodpassion wrote:
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
> Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
> have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
> not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.

There're a couple of ways to approach this and most people here have
given the easy out - bail out now. Good advice.

People that don't offer even minor hospitality to workers, and
particularly friends that are working for them, are scum. It's
indicative of a mentality that is best described as a defective human.
There will be plenty of other opportunities for them to display their
shortcomings if you take the work. I don't work for people like that
and have learned to weed them out before the negotiations go to far. I
beg off the job explaining that what they're looking to do isn't a good
fit for me, then I give them some names of competitors who I think
would enjoy a nightmare customer. Yes, I know, I'm evil. ;)

As an amateur you are at a bit of a disadvantage. Are home improvement
licenses required for contractors where you are? If so, you won't have
a leg to stand on if the job goes into the toilet and you could be
setting yourself up for bigger problems.

You don't have the experience to price the job and haven't learned how
to deal with problem customers. Problem customers are best avoided at
all costs. It only takes one bad customer to swallow up the profits
from a couple or three good customers - some you can't please no matter
what you do. They'll also take every opportunity to bad mouth you and
your work.

If you're still contemplating working for them, you're either
optimistic or stupid or a bit of both. Not meant as an insult -
everyone has to put on the blinders once in while to deal with life.
If you're married you know what I mean!

The other way to approach it is to take the job, cover your ass with
asbestos/kevlar jockeys or boxers, and set it up in a way that will
minimize the headache. You'll need to have everything spelled out - if
there's _any_ room for interpretation, they'll interpret it to mean
they save money, every time. The hourly rate is simple for them to
start bitching about. "You were gone for 45 minutes for lunch and you
were ten minutes late getting here, so let's knock off an hour."
You'll have to justify every hour which is a royal pain. That "rough"
estimate of the total number of hours will come back to haunt you.
They'll interpret that to be a cap on the price.

It's a basement bathroom, so I'm not sure whether the owner will be
just looking for a place to park it or the Taj Mahal. If they're
planning on buying the fixtures and materials to save money it's
certain that it will cost you extra time.

Instead of an hourly rate give them a daily or half-day rate. That
will minimize the quibbling about the number of breaks you took, etc.
You may want to give a Not To Exceed labor price based on a written
list with the exact fixtures, materials and quantities and work on the
daily rate up to that point.

A very rough ballpark way of estimating such jobs is to add all
materials (including what is supplied by the owner) and labor then add
at least 50 or 60%. That's roughly how much a contractor would charge.
As you're doing this on the side, don't have insurance, etc it'd be
hard for you to justify charging that amount. Whatever you do, make
sure that you charge about $30 for that sandwich they never gave you.
;)

R

SNIP

> >>I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> >>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> >>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> >>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> >>this site.
>

Here's another look at this old problem. Many will take your labor and
efforts for granted, and accept all the "help" they can get. Tell them
you are doing this FOR MONEY, because if you weren't, you would be
working on your own house. Educate them on what your time is worth to
you, and how you don't want to spend every weekend at their house
unless there is $$ involved.

With one of my friends, we trade out work at each other's full retail.
Once he thought he got the short end of the stick, so he had someone
else do the work he wanted. Fine with me. Sadly, he got screwed.
(OK, I did enjoy that just a little...) Now we are back on the rail
and everything works smoothly.

I work for my family, too. I charge them $40 an hour for labor only,
including picking up material they can't get delivered. I also require
lunch. Since we had the ground rules set out up front, they don't
complain. They listen to all their friends whine about how they are
getting pissed off at their remodeling contractor and they feel like
they are getting a pretty good deal with me.

They are happier paying me than any other arrangement. We kept hours
of who did what and built a bank of hours, and they decided that it was
OK to pay me for working in their house. When it came to my turn to
cash in the hours, I got a load of top soil to spread and we worked on
trimming my huge ash trees. Strangely... they preferred the cash
arrangements...

Robert

woodpassion wrote:
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
> Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
> have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
> not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.
>
> woodpassion

There's a lot of wisdom been given here. Placing them at the top of
your "ex-friend" list is a good approach. Because I'm the type of
person I am I would be tempted to take another tack. Agree a
reasonable price, get them to pay out for all the materials, start the
job, create a big mess, and as soon as they start niggling at you just
pack your tools up, say "Finito, Benito!" and walk away. Let them try
to find a jobber who will take over someone else's incomplete project.

FoggyTown

"Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends,"

I would ask this longtime freind to help you with some painting or yard
work. If they give you labor in return i dont think you need to equate
the labor rates of skilled VS unskilled. Hauling brush at your house is
just as valuable as your skilled carpentry even if the real world has
different rates for the two jobs (amonst friends.)

RicodJour wrote:
> woodpassion wrote:
> > Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> > tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> > drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> > friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> > lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
> > Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
> > have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
> > not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
> > So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> > remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> > paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> > worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> > hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> > think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> > this site.
>
> There're a couple of ways to approach this and most people here have
> given the easy out - bail out now. Good advice.
>
> People that don't offer even minor hospitality to workers, and
> particularly friends that are working for them, are scum. It's
> indicative of a mentality that is best described as a defective human.

> <snip>

I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING
for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable
guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade
when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot
drive to the next job.

To the OP, the most charitable description of your "friends" is
"clueless and inconsiderate. The more appropriate description is
"bloodsucking users". They should have been crushing you with kindness
for the favor you did them. They already seem to have an outsized sense
of entitlement. Imagine what they'll be like if they have paid you and
feel you "owe them" the work.

I do car repairs for my in-laws (occasionally pretty extensive jobs)
and they always try to pay me. I never accept, but they'll immediately
set a date for a nice steak or barbecue dinner to show appreciation.
Plus, my father-in-law frequents garage/estate sales and occasionally
brings me a great tool or other find and won't let me even pay his
cost. It's a pleasure to do favors for people like this.

RUN, do not walk, from this potentially disastous "job". These are not
nice people.

woodpassion wrote:
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

Wow, that is a mamoth job to do, especially if they just sat on their
asses the whole time and did not help. They could've at least helped
you hang the drywall or haul away the debris.

I'm sure you did a great job. But now these friends are thinking "How
can we get this sucker to do more, and Cheap?"

Tell them you don't have time to do this job. Even if you need the
money badly, there's easier ways to make money. This job will destroy
what's left of your friendship. They treated you like a slave when you
were working for free. Can you imagine how miserable you'll be doing
this when they're paying you. Oh yeah, they will screw you over on the
fees. That's why they are asking for an hourly rate and a max hours.
I'm sure they'll add a lot of extra tasks on, and still expect you to
only charge the max hour rate.

[email protected] wrote:
> >
> >I liked your friend a whole lot better before the "reimbursement" part... yuk!
> >
> >To do a good and charitable thing and then expect to be paid for it just pisses
> >me off... YMWV
> >
> >
> >Mac
> >
> >https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
> >https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm
>
>
> I agree. Like changing an old lady"s tire and coming up to her a
> month later and asking for money.
>
> There are people you do things for and others you don't or have
> stopped. I fix on my sister in law's car once and she thinks I owe
> her everytime it breaks. Something about Liberal entitlements. I
> have friends who get what they need - nothing asked for, no money
> changes hands, no expectations. I get courtesy and a very nice thank
> you. People who treat me like their personal 'nigger' get zip.
> Appologies for the 'nigger.

Instead of apologizing for a thoughtless comment delete it before you
hit the send button next time.

R

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion wrote:

> Long story short~

You are a much nicerr man than I am.

I would tell them "Nope ... I busted my tail for you and you made me pay
for my own sandwich. I expect better from my friends and until you are
willing to show me more consideration I can't consider you my friends."

If you don't tell them what's wrong, they'll never guess. As it is they
will likely express something along the line of "Well, we're sorry you
took it that way."

Speak. Use the exit. Let them either find another chump or reach for their
checkbooks.

I do discount my prices to friends ... unless they ask for a discount
based on their friendship. Then it's "full retail plus 20%".

Bill

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
> a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.
>
> (If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
> not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
> then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
> practice.)
>

It's a PIA, but I deal with it.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
> a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.
>
> (If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
> not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
> then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
> practice.)
>

BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
thread:

Top Posts: 5
Bottom Posts: 53

So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice... ;)

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.
>

Top posting would be ok if the majority of people top posted. But they
don't, they bottom post. When you top post, when everyone else is bottom
posting, it gets hard to follow a conversation. It's really as simple as
that. It has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.

But I will stop bitching about it, since its a relatively small number of
people to do it. And I can't complain too much when some top posters answer
my stupid ass woodworking questions. :)

LRod wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.
>
>>BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
>>thread:
>>

So now we have to top post to be "modern"?

This topic comes up almost as often as politics.

Top posting is like Jeopardy. Putting the answer first and the question
second :-).

While it probably won't convince the "modernists", a good reference is:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html#Q2

And that's ALL I'm going to say on the subject.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Swingman wrote:

> That said, IMO top posters are infinitely preferable to bottom posters who
> are just too damn lazy to cut and edit ... including those who can't seem to
> take out the !#$)*T# message id information.
>
> There is little worse than scrolling down though a couple hundred lines of
> quoted text to find a "me too".

Agreed. But then I think that people who are too lazy or too uninterested to
cut and edit should be killfiled :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

B A R R Y wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:52:53 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
>>
>>> Wow, I actually agree with Larry on something. :-)
>>
>>Yabbut this is a religious issue, not a political one.
>
>
> As in Macs, recumbent bicycles, etc... <G>

Or Neadertals vs Normites :-).

But I bet "Mark & Juanita" agree with me on at least one political issue as
well - the 2nd amendment :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Prometheus wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>

Been on vacation? That thread's a month old :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

CW wrote:

>> Not everywhere in the US, at least.=A0=A0We've=A0got=A0plenty=A0of=A0=
carpenters=A0in
>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
>=20
> Same here with the machinists.

Before retiring, I did some software for a rolling mill to control and =
report
on some automated roll grinders. I asked if the automated equipment wa=
s
better than the work the machinists did. The reply was no, the machini=
sts
did better, but they were retiring and replacements could not be found.=


Seems a shame. It's not a low pay job by any means. I guess the probl=
em is
just a perception of machining as a low status blue collar job.

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 03:41:19 -0500, Prometheus wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:38:22 -0700, "Steve B"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:
>>
>>1. Re: trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail.
>>Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set
>>the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.
>>
>>2. Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this
>>job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and
>>as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the
>>discount rate.
>>
>>3. A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do,
>>they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the
>>work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness
>>always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do,
>>friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over
>>the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY
>>uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.
>
> Here's a fourth one I learned really early as well-
>
> When you give a friend a discount, make it very clear that your rate
> is for them only.

I make from a catalog and have a firm price list.

I give friends the next-quantity-up discount and let them know that if
word gets out they go back to marked retail. I explain to them that this
is how I make my living and that I can't afford / am not willing to give
this pricing to strangers.

Bill

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:07:09 +0000, CW wrote:

> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
>
> Same here with the machinists.
>
>>Some of the
>> local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
>> Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
>> there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.
>
> Sounds like our shop. We haven't taken down our sign (about ten by fifteen
> feet) in over a year. It's gotten so bad that I have been trying to train
> people. Hard to find a good trainee. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty.


You just hit the nail on the head ... shops are reluctant to train. Where
do you think machinists come from, anyways? Or carpenters or electricians?
Kids coming out of public schools sure aren't (on average) 'much to look at'.

Give 'em some training (sort those screws, take the burr off these parts,
measure these pins) and insist that they also attend whatever classes are
available locally just to keep their jobs. In their 'free-time' at work,
let other employees assign them tasks / teach them how to use tools -
select steel - run the saw - weld saw blades - use the hoist - measure
accurately - and so on. I learned screw profiles from 'the boss', how to
remove burrs and pressurize the Karto sprayer from a 'permanent bench
hand', make CNC edits by watching the boss and then sneaking them in when
he wasn't around. ;-) (makes you a VERY careful operator!)

Chatting with the DeVlieg 43K72 operator alerted me to spindle drop and
rebuilding that stinky-butt machine from a basket of parts woke me up to a
WHOLE LOT of alignment issues -- straighness of ways, adjusting gibs and
so on and on.

Plan to reimburse them somehow ... either in wages (one raise for an "A",
another for a "B" nothing for a "C" and extremely shaky ground for
anything less than a "C".[gpa for the semester]) or similar pro-rated
tuition / books money if you plan on retaining them after training, though.

Best shop I ever worked at for this paid for the tuition upfront (from
a pre-approved list of trade-related classes) ... reimbursed for books on a
sliding scale and pegged wages to the final GPA for the school year.

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:07:09 +0000, CW wrote:

> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
>
> Same here with the machinists.
>
>>Some of the
>> local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
>> Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
>> there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.
>
> Sounds like our shop. We haven't taken down our sign (about ten by fifteen
> feet) in over a year. It's gotten so bad that I have been trying to train
> people. Hard to find a good trainee. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty.


You just hit the nail on the head ... shops are reluctant to train. Where
do you think machinists come from, anyways? Or carpenters or electricians?
Kids coming out of public schools sure aren't (on average) 'much to look at'.

Give 'em some training (sort those screws, take the burr off these parts,
measure these pins) and insist that they also attend whatever classes are
available locally just to keep their jobs. In their 'free-time' at work,
let other employees assign them tasks / teach them how to use tools -
select steel - run the saw - weld saw blades - use the hoist - measure
accurately - and so on. I learned screw profiles from 'the boss', how to
remove burrs and pressurize the Karto sprayer from a 'permanent bench
hand', make CNC edits by watching the boss and then sneaking them in when
he wasn't around. ;-) (makes you a VERY careful operator!)

Chatting with the DeVlieg 43K72 operator alerted me to spindle drop and
rebuilding that stinky-butt machine from a basket of parts woke me up to a
WHOLE LOT of alignment issues -- straighness of ways, adjusting gibs and
so on and on.

Plan to reimburse them somehow ... either in wages (one raise for an "A",
another for a "B" nothing for a "C" and extremely shaky ground for
anything less than a "C".[gpa for the semester]) or similar pro-rated
tuition / books money if you plan on retaining them after training, though.

Best shop I ever worked at for this paid for the tuition upfront (from
a pre-approved list of trade-related classes) ... reimbursed for books on a
sliding scale and pegged wages to the final GPA for the school year.

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:07:09 +0000, CW wrote:

> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
>
> Same here with the machinists.
>
>>Some of the
>> local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
>> Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
>> there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.
>
> Sounds like our shop. We haven't taken down our sign (about ten by fifteen
> feet) in over a year. It's gotten so bad that I have been trying to train
> people. Hard to find a good trainee. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty.


You just hit the nail on the head ... shops are reluctant to train. Where
do you think machinists come from, anyways? Or carpenters or electricians?
Kids coming out of public schools sure aren't (on average) 'much to look at'.

Give 'em some training (sort those screws, take the burr off these parts,
measure these pins) and insist that they also attend whatever classes are
available locally just to keep their jobs. In their 'free-time' at work,
let other employees assign them tasks / teach them how to use tools -
select steel - run the saw - weld saw blades - use the hoist - measure
accurately - and so on. I learned screw profiles from 'the boss', how to
remove burrs and pressurize the Karto sprayer from a 'permanent bench
hand', make CNC edits by watching the boss and then sneaking them in when
he wasn't around. ;-) (makes you a VERY careful operator!)

Chatting with the DeVlieg 43K72 operator alerted me to spindle drop and
rebuilding that stinky-butt machine from a basket of parts woke me up to a
WHOLE LOT of alignment issues -- straighness of ways, adjusting gibs and
so on and on.

Plan to reimburse them somehow ... either in wages (one raise for an "A",
another for a "B" nothing for a "C" and extremely shaky ground for
anything less than a "C".[gpa for the semester]) or similar pro-rated
tuition / books money if you plan on retaining them after training, though.

Best shop I ever worked at for this paid for the tuition upfront (from
a pre-approved list of trade-related classes) ... reimbursed for books on a
sliding scale and pegged wages to the final GPA for the school year.

woodpassion wrote:
> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.


I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to do the
work for them at any price. Let them pay somebody who does it for a living and
maybe the next time they'll come to appreciate the value of the work you've
already done for them. I'm amazed you'd even consider doing anything for them
at all. Are you a rug? You've sure as hell been walked over.

First time? Fine; it was a learning experience for you. But the next time? I
guess you didn't learn.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

CW wrote:
> There is no worry of finding work. If you came here right now, you would
> have a job within 2 hours of beginning your search.

Some schools may be starting to notice:

<http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/02/career.tech.rise.ap/index.html>

Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
reply button. Most folks can figure it out.

Dave Hall

BTW Agent apparently positions the curser at the top.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:25:02 -0700, mac davis
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
>>> a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.
>>>
>>> (If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
>>> not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
>>> then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
>>> practice.)
>>>
>>
>>BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
>>thread:
>>
>>Top Posts: 5
>>Bottom Posts: 53
>>
>>So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice... ;)
>>
>damn, 52 people were whipped into submission???
>
>Mac
>
>https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
>https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

>>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>>this site.

A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:

1. Re: trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail.
Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set
the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.

2. Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this
job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and
as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the
discount rate.

3. A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do,
they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the
work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness
always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do,
friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over
the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY
uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.

Friends is friends, and business is business.

Steve

Never Never Never Ever again I help a so called freind take off his
roof resheet it and put on new roof did not charge him a dime just
wanted some help from him when I put siding on my house .
I got a big no from him when the time came to help me to bad for him
were he worked at my cousion was his boss i got him fired

In article <[email protected]>,
jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:

> I definitely would not do it. Not to digress, but the work I do is a
> funny thing along these lines. I'm a systems/network engineer, and I'm
> sure there are a good many people out there that do similar work. For
> some reason people never have a problem asking me to "take a look at
> something weird their system is doing" while you are there for a social
> visit (dinner, drinks, etc). Of course, 4 hours later (min), it is all
> straightened out. This most would have probably cost them $100 to $200
> dollars to get it done by somebody a LOT less qualified somewhere else.
> But other then a quick "oh thanks", there is little appreciation.
> Now, these same people would never ask plumber friend to fix the hot
> water heater or unclog the toilet. They wouldn't ask my wife (an RN)
> to look at a rash and treat it. Something about computer work, people
> just figure, "he'd love to fix it, he's a geek..."
>

Reminds me of some people who have gone out waterskiing with me. I
drive the truck, launch the boat, drive the boat, put gas in both at
great expense and otherwise do all of the work. My boat runs on gas,
not on "thanks". Real skiers know this immediately and always offer
gas money, before we even get wet. They are the ones who get called
back, even if I refuse the money.

Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 1:42pm (EDT+5)
[email protected] (woodpassion) doth
lament:
<snip> Said friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they
ordered out for lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in
their basement. <snip>

It would be verry, very, tempting to work again, until they
repeated that. Then say you were going to get something to eat. And
never return. Then when they called, I'm sure they would, tell them you
had other commitments - and never, ever, go back. Of course, it would
be less tempting if you thought you might have to put in more than part
of just one day for them to shaft you on lunch. I think if I could be
quite sure I'd only expend part of one day I might well do just that.
I'd make damn sure to take any of my tools and whatever when I left.
Or, if you don't want to be patty about the whole thing you could always
explain your feelings, then leave. I'm not sure which way Id go, but
I'd be "extremely" tempted to go for petty.

Like someone else said, whenever my dad or his buddies needed work
done, several would show up, work, and "always" be fed. They'd say they
were working on something, several would show up if they were availbe,
if not it was understood. One might be there one day, not the next.
I've seen people working at our place while my dad was at work, they
worked different shift. That's the way it was. And should be. Of
course, there was always a lot of supervising, involving sitting down
while someone else was actually working, and a lot of criticising of the
work actually bing done. Then the roles would be reversed

Me, so far I've been able to do all I need by myself, or with my
sons' "cheerful" assistance.



JOAT
Justice was invented by the innocent.
Mercy and lawyers were invented by the guilty.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:45:50 -0700, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]>
wrote:

>LRod wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Frequency has nothing to do with efficacy nor modernity.
>>
>>>BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
>>>thread:
>>>
>
>So now we have to top post to be "modern"?
>
>This topic comes up almost as often as politics.
>
>Top posting is like Jeopardy. Putting the answer first and the question
>second :-).
>


Wow, I actually agree with Larry on something. :-)

... snip





+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:03:30 -0500, Tom Kendrick <[email protected]> wrote:


>Pete,
> I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't
>return the favor. However, here's the other side:
>
>A youth group leader (friend of mine) paid the cost for two sons to
>attend several youth activities because both of their parents were out
>of work and on hard times.
>A few months later, both adults were employed and had new cars in
>their driveway. My friend told me he intended to approach the parents
>for reimbursement of what he had paid for their sons' benefit. I don't
>remember whether he did or not.
>What I told him was that the parents would not consider they owed him
>anything - he was just being generous for the boys sake. He had never
>made any contract or agreement that he would be repaid, so they would
>rebuff his efforts to collect.
>
>Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
>commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
>request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
>in full. No further debt is owed.
>
>Some folks just don't know any better.

I liked your friend a whole lot better before the "reimbursement" part... yuk!

To do a good and charitable thing and then expect to be paid for it just pisses
me off... YMWV


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:38:33 -0700, Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Prometheus wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>
>Been on vacation? That thread's a month old :-).

Or perhaps the opposite- I've been so busy I haven't had time to putz
around on the computer much. Of course, since it was just updated
last night, this one showed up as "new" in Agent. :)

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

[top posted for your convenience]

Run, do not walk away from this "opportunity."

I'd be surprised you could ever be friends with them with the sour
taste in your mouth from the first job. I couldn't. Even if you can,
when you put that relationship into the client/contractor level, you
will find a whole other dynamic.

For example, they're asking for an estimate of the time to do the job.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit when (not if) it took longer than
you/they thought, there would be significant nagging and possible
renegotiations not in your favor as a result. The good news is that
will probably sink the "friendship" irrevocably. I say "good news"
because you don't need "friends" like this.

How would you handle callbacks? That's another thing to consider.

Good luck.

>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:05:49 -0500, "sal" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Buddy your way too friendly and your so called "friends " are taking
>advantage of you. Up here in Central Canada there are very few Carpenters
>around as most are in Alberta making big bucks . The going rate here is 30$
>40$ per hour for Reno's etc. Canada is just screaming for trades people, but
>of course you can't come here because we have a lot of Terrorists.
>
>Sal

Lucky tradesmen in your neck of the woods, I guess- around here, you
can't toss a stick without hitting a carpenter in the head with it.
And this year, almost everyone I know has been laid off more than
they've been working. Gotta price accordingly,

> I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take.

I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
indignant that I would ask him to do work. I called a friend one
day, who was always over looking get something done, to set up a time
to give me a hand standing up walls for my garden shed. He became
too busy for the foreseeable future. 2nd inlaw wanted some work done
and I needed a massage (she does that). I figured an exchange would
be appropriate. Turned out my labor was free and she needed to
charge me her normal hourly fee.

My labor rate is 40$ hr, 2 hr minimum, no cheques, no credit and don't
think a box of donuts will do it. And a box of donuts is the fee for
talking to me about your issues. I will accept labor of equal value
( I determine) and it is done in advance. I have one inlaw who comes
when I need a hand and for him he gets anything he needs.

I have a lot of friends that I will do things for. All others are
mere aquaintances including most relatives and the labor costs 40$.

You have to remember that if these people spent money on tools and the
time to learn how to do it themselves, this would be a different
story. The ones that don't buy the tools have money for the vacations
and retirement funds because you work for free using yours tools and
time.

Pete

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:03:30 -0500, Tom Kendrick <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:47 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
>>materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
>>Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
>>some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
>>indignant that I would ask him to do work.
>

>Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
>commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
>request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
>in full. No further debt is owed.
>
>Some folks just don't know any better.


He was quite
>>indignant that I would ask him to do work.
>

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:03:30 -0500, Tom Kendrick <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:47 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
>>materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
>>Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
>>some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
>>indignant that I would ask him to do work.
>
>Pete,
> I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't
>return the favor. However, here's the other side:
>
>Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
>commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
>request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
>in full. No further debt is owed.
>
This makes no sense. The senario is their car/house, they buy the
material to make a fix. I flat out refuse to subsidise someone else's
car or house. I supply 'some' labor to help them do the fix. Where
does the payment in full come in?? Perhaps it's the worn parts and
extra gaskets left behind, oil and debris on the floor that doesn't
get swept up at job's end, wear and tear on tools, cost of
electricity and heat that some how got turned into payment

>Some folks just don't know any better.


He was quite indignant that I would ask him to do work for me while
at the same time I did work for him . This was a discussion about
trading time for time. He didn't come over here to work, he came
over here to get a free ride. He had no intention of even helping me
help himself.

Moral to this story is there is no moral. Help those that help you
and themselves while you are helping them. Whiney moochers pay
their own way. Favors given should not require discussion. I am not
Don Corleone looking for future considerations and this not contract
law. Want a favor - give a favor.

Pete

woodpassion wrote:
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
> Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
> have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
> not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.
>
>
>
>
I still do work for free for (actually with) my friends. Friends helping
friends is a great thing in my opinion. I would never charge my friends
for anything. But, I do not think I have any "friends" that would treat
me as you have described so I cant really comment on your situation. I'm
slowly finishing my basement and I asked a friend to help. He did, We
worked together. He got a beer or two, some food and we had a good time
working together. He even bought a new tool belt on his way over. I
expect I will help finish his basement or deck in the future. I will do
so gladly. I even did a drive by of his house while he was on vacation
to see if his lawn needed mowed. No, he didn't ask me. Its just what
friends do!

I have very old cottage in a campground with other very old cottages.
The sound of a power tool brings all the men together to help out. If I
was working on something on my cottage I would not even need to ask, I
would have help quick enough. If I was free and I head someone working
on their cottage I would be over with tools in hand, no questions asked.

There is a flip side of course. If the guy was not friendly, not willing
to help out on other peoples projects, or didn't contribute to the good
of the campground I would be a little reluctant to just jump in without
being asked. If asked I would probably help anyone, friends or not, if
they were in need.

Just some thoughts

>
>I liked your friend a whole lot better before the "reimbursement" part... yuk!
>
>To do a good and charitable thing and then expect to be paid for it just pisses
>me off... YMWV
>
>
>Mac
>
>https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
>https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm


I agree. Like changing an old lady"s tire and coming up to her a
month later and asking for money.

There are people you do things for and others you don't or have
stopped. I fix on my sister in law's car once and she thinks I owe
her everytime it breaks. Something about Liberal entitlements. I
have friends who get what they need - nothing asked for, no money
changes hands, no expectations. I get courtesy and a very nice thank
you. People who treat me like their personal 'nigger' get zip.
Appologies for the 'nigger.

Pete

Or not. It didn't seem to be a thoughtless comment, rather a statement
about the way he/she was used.

RicodJour wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>>> I liked your friend a whole lot better before the "reimbursement" part... yuk!
>>>
>>> To do a good and charitable thing and then expect to be paid for it just pisses
>>> me off... YMWV
>>>
>>>
>>> Mac
>>>
>>> https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
>>> https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm
>>
>> I agree. Like changing an old lady"s tire and coming up to her a
>> month later and asking for money.
>>
>> There are people you do things for and others you don't or have
>> stopped. I fix on my sister in law's car once and she thinks I owe
>> her everytime it breaks. Something about Liberal entitlements. I
>> have friends who get what they need - nothing asked for, no money
>> changes hands, no expectations. I get courtesy and a very nice thank
>> you. People who treat me like their personal 'nigger' get zip.
>> Appologies for the 'nigger.
>
> Instead of apologizing for a thoughtless comment delete it before you
> hit the send button next time.
>
> R
>

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
> you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
> 300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.
>
> Guess who's the 1?
>

Well, that might be applicable if we were talking about PINs or ATMs or
other acronyms, but we are not.

As I said before, even though there is a logical reason why people should
bottom post, the MOST important thing is that everyone does it the same way
(so conversation flows in the same direction, either or up or down (not up
then down and then to the middle)). Its like driving on the right side of
the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.

My little unscientific poll clearly shows that majority of the poster in
rec.woodworking bottom post, so you should too, otherwise you might cause an
accident. ;)

I enjoy your posts and I know you are an intelligent person, so at this
point I think you are just being stubborn and argumentative.

Dave Hall <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
> wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
> reply button. Most folks can figure it out.
>
> Dave Hall
>
> BTW Agent apparently positions the curser at the top.
>
>

If the cursor's at the top, scroll down and trim until you get to where
you want to reply. It keeps messages shorter and in context, which is
what the whole debate is all about.

My newsreader (Xnews) tries to prevent really excessive quoted text, but
it doesn't stop me from doing it if I want to.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:11:55 GMT, Bob Martin <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>in 1312779 20060901 032519 "TBM" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Its like driving on the right side of
>>>the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.
>>
>>I think you are a little confused - every country in Europe, with the
>>exception of the UK,
>>drives on the right.
>
> Wrong. You missed out Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, and if I were being
> pedantic Jersey, Guernsey and Alderney.
>
> There is also one street in central London where traffic drives on the
> right - Savoy Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Court
>

Regardless, I think it's obvious what I was getting at.

"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:29:52 -0400, "TBM" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Don't work for friends that drive on the wrong side of the road???
>
> Mac
>

Exactly.

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> They are in order of what was previously written. Including the previous
> text at the bottom is just a concession to those that just joined a thread
> or those with memory problems. The reference is there if you need it. Say
> you read a book over a weeks time. Do you start from the beginning each
> time
> you pick it up or do you start were you left off?
>

Do you post on any web forums? If so, do the posts flow from the top to the
bottom or the other way around?

LRod <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Love this side posting. Thanks for How long's it take you to write
> suggesting it. your side posted posts? Any
> longer than normal?
>

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Bob Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> in 1312984 20060902 104412 Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:11:55 GMT, Bob Martin <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>in 1312779 20060901 032519 "TBM" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Its like driving on the right side of
>>>>the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.
>>>
>>>I think you are a little confused - every country in Europe, with the
>>>exception of the UK,
>>>drives on the right.
>>
>>Wrong. You missed out Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, and if I were being
>>pedantic Jersey, Guernsey and Alderney.
>>
>>There is also one street in central London where traffic drives on the
>>right - Savoy Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Court
>
> OK, I should have qualified UK as including possessions and one-time
> colonies etc

You should have just said nothing at all....

Tom Kendrick wrote:
> I agree with what the other posters have said:
>
> 1. Unless this is a legitimate charity case (which it does not seem to
> be) tell them that your situation has changed and you are no longer
> taking on these types of projects.
> 2. Just because they ASK you a question does not require that you
> answer it. In this case, they are asking the wrong question to the
> wrong person. Here is the RIGHT question:
>
> Are you interested in taking on another project for us?
>
> Here is the right answer: No, I would prefer that you find someone
> else to do the that project for you.
>
> If they persist with other questions, your response should be that you
> have no knowledge of what prevailing rates and time required - that
> would be something to ask whoever they consider. Do NOT give them an
> estimate.
>
> You can retain your relationship with these people (friends,
> neighbors, etc.) by simply stating that while you will continue to
> meet them socially, your priorities have changed and you do not have
> the TIME do take on their project.
>
> There just are some folks who don't "get it" when it comes to showing
> appreciation for what you do for them, whether you are being fully
> compensated or not. Poor folks - they just don't know no better. Their
> bad manners are showing.
>
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out
>> for lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their
>> basement. Have had too many similar experiences with others in the
>> past year and have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have
>> a full time job not related to building, but am a very skilled
>> carpenter/woodworker) So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom
>> next to finished basement remodeled. I need some guidance on how
>> much to charge...anyone here do paid work for friends? I'd like to
>> just charge a flat fee of what it's worth to me to even bother doing
>> it...they want me to give them an hourly rate and an estimate of how
>> much time it will take. What do you think? Thanks for any input.
>> I am new here and I really appreciate this site.

If it's causing trouble, one or more of the parties doesn't know what
friendship really means. Cut losses and be honest. A real friend won't
care.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:17:14 GMT, "JimR" <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>
>I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
>can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
>spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
>time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
>work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork. Once you start getting paid
>for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
>professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --
>

I just had that situation come up last night... I had a neighbor pick a pen last
week for her birthday... sort of a personal thing, but it's hard for me to
decide what pen someone else might like, because I seldom think one is good
enough.. *g*

Anyway, she asked last night if I'd sell her one that she liked, so that she
could give it to her sister for HER b-day... I threw it in a plastic case and
told her that it was a compliment to me that someone liked a pen that much, and
please take it as a gift...
She said that it wasn't fair that I should be giving her a 2nd pen, and insisted
on paying for it...
Not wanting to try explaining that I really don't like selling to friends and
that the damn thing cost less than $4 to make, I just said "Ok, that one's
$250"...

After the shock and the laughter, she decided that free was better...

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:17:14 GMT, "JimR" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>>
>>> I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to
>>> do the
>>> work for them at any price.
>>
>> Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
>> the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
>> problems on both sides.
>>
>I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
>can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
>spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
>time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
>work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork.


> Once you start getting paid
>for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
>professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --
>

Why? That's never bothered Microsoft or any of a number of other
"professional" software vendors. :-)



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
> you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
> for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
> let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
> confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
> out, maybe they won't.

Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and
how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything for
if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to
cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when
I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it
without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there to
help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even think
of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes down
to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance
for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it any
other way.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:25:53 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>
>> > Bonanza training wheels. <G>
>>
>> AKA: Split tailed doctor killer, as it was told to me.
>>
>> Lew
>
>I prefer the looks of the straight tailed version myself. From what I
>understand, the "killer" part of the plane is totally undeserved for any
>qualified pilot willing to actually do weight and balance calculations.

While W&B may be part of it, I've long had a theory that the reason
the Bonanza had such a reputation is that doctors were among the very
few that could afford a Bonanza (and the Bonanza is/was right near the
top of the desirability scale in single engine aircraft) straight out
of the box after getting a license without working up to it through
progressively more complex airplanes like the rest of us have to. Lack
of experience basically, or as we in the ATC business used to say: a
hundred mile an hour pilot in a 200 mile an hour airplane.

We used to have more trouble with Mooney pilots than any other type. I
posited that (as with Bonanzas, but from a slightly different aspect),
the affordability of the Mooney permitted too many hundred mile an
hour pilots to own them and they were far too frequently several miles
per hour behind. My experience, by the way, is mostly from the IFR
perspective, which only adds to the complexity issue.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"woodpassion" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
Long story even shorter. These people aren't friends. Dump them.
Jim

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

Can't tell you how long it takes you to do any given thing- that's up
to your own experience. But I charge $12/hr for friends, $15/hr for
useful aquaintances, and $25/hr for strangers. The price goes up for
strangers that look like they are going to give me headaches- I call
that the asshole tax. Family and close friends pay me whatever they
pay me, and I don't worry about it- to a point.

All that being said, it's almost a better idea to just to work for
nothing or refuse the work entirely if you want to make sure that you
remain friends with some folks. It's getting to that point with my
parents- I've remodeled half their house this year for a grand total
of $80 and a pallet of used brick, and I've got to say, parents or no,
I'd be happier getting nothing than $10 for twenty or thirty hours of
work. Even though I know that's all they've got to spare, it's still
a slap in the face to think that they could hand me a few bucks for a
week of work and call it even. Keep that in mind when you set your
prices for your friends- it can get grating after a while, especially
if they need a lot of help, and begin to assume that you'll drop
everything to do it.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:07:55 -0400, "Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
>> a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.
>>
>> (If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
>> not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
>> then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
>> practice.)
>>
>
>BTW, for the fun of it, I counted the top posts and the bottom posts in this
>thread:
>
>Top Posts: 5
>Bottom Posts: 53
>
>So I don't see how you can say it is an out of date practice... ;)
>
damn, 52 people were whipped into submission???

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

The only thing that made it worth tuning in to was the discussion on
top/bottom posting.

>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:47 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid
>materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of
>Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out
>some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite
>indignant that I would ask him to do work.

Pete,
I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't
return the favor. However, here's the other side:

A youth group leader (friend of mine) paid the cost for two sons to
attend several youth activities because both of their parents were out
of work and on hard times.
A few months later, both adults were employed and had new cars in
their driveway. My friend told me he intended to approach the parents
for reimbursement of what he had paid for their sons' benefit. I don't
remember whether he did or not.
What I told him was that the parents would not consider they owed him
anything - he was just being generous for the boys sake. He had never
made any contract or agreement that he would be repaid, so they would
rebuff his efforts to collect.

Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal
commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon
request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment
in full. No further debt is owed.

Some folks just don't know any better.

LRod wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:27:01 GMT, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I often take people flying in my small plane.
>
> What do you have?

A '76 Beech C23 Sundowner. It's similar to a Piper Cherokee /Archer
180, only roomier, slightly slower, and with more doors. This
particular example was re-engined in '97, and got most of a new panel in
the mid-90's.

Bonanza training wheels. <G>

B A R R Y wrote:

> From what I
> understand, the "killer" part of the plane is totally undeserved
for any
> qualified pilot willing to actually do weight and balance
calculations.

<snip aircraft stuff>

It was a reference to a high performance aircraft that exceeded the
capabilities of the pilot.

Can tell you a very interesting tale about flying in a "banana" from
Cleveland to San Angelo, TX and back a couple of times during a major
airline strike back in the mid 60s.

Lew

Want to move to Seattle? We don't have any lasers or(CNC) punch presses but
mills, lathes and waterjet. Experience on these machines not required,
ability to learn is. We will train.

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:26:36 -0000, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:07:09 +0000, CW wrote:
> >
> >> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>>
> >>> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
> >>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
> >>
> >> Same here with the machinists.
> >>
> >>>Some of the
> >>> local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
> >>> Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
> >>> there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.
> >>
> >> Sounds like our shop. We haven't taken down our sign (about ten by
fifteen
> >> feet) in over a year. It's gotten so bad that I have been trying to
train
> >> people. Hard to find a good trainee. Nobody wants to get their hands
dirty.
> >
> >
> >You just hit the nail on the head ... shops are reluctant to train. Where
> >do you think machinists come from, anyways? Or carpenters or
electricians?
> >Kids coming out of public schools sure aren't (on average) 'much to look
at'.
> >
> >Give 'em some training (sort those screws, take the burr off these parts,
> >measure these pins) and insist that they also attend whatever classes are
> >available locally just to keep their jobs. In their 'free-time' at work,
> >let other employees assign them tasks / teach them how to use tools -
> >select steel - run the saw - weld saw blades - use the hoist - measure
> >accurately - and so on. I learned screw profiles from 'the boss', how to
> >remove burrs and pressurize the Karto sprayer from a 'permanent bench
> >hand',
>
> >make CNC edits by watching the boss and then sneaking them in when
> >he wasn't around. ;-) (makes you a VERY careful operator!)
>
> Sounds a bit like how I learned it- reading the manuals while longer
> jobs were running as a lowly operator (load/unload and push the start
> button only), looking up general speed and feed information on the
> internet at home, and working up from simple offset changes to full
> setup and programming over the course of a couple of years. Might
> have done it quicker with some mentoring, but since that wasn't
> happening it was a matter of just watching others set up the the
> machines and (very gingerly) taking that over without permission until
> I got it down pat and could prove to the boss that I had earned the
> job title. Place I'm at now is better than the others about that,
> though- I got hired as a setup guy for the lasers and CNC punches, but
> since they run so well between setups, I've got the foreman getting me
> up to speed on everything else in the shop while the parts run, and
> it's moving things along much more quickly.
>
> I still prefer the work of carpentry and cabinetmaking- but after this
> rotten year with layoff after layoff, I've gone back to a machine
> shop, and it's amazing how appreciative they are to have someone who
> knows what's going on these days. Guess it doesn't matter so much
> what you prefer once you look at the difference in overall treatment-
> the couple of machine shops I've been at have given me good raises on
> a real regular basis and promotions, the construction contractors have
> expected me to spend more money on tools than I was making and never
> wanted to pay one cent more than they absolutely had to- and the
> merest mention of paid vacations or health insurance sent them into
> apoplectic fits. Seems "benefits" = "free beer (when the boss feels
> like it)" to the local construction industry, and I'm not into it
> anymore.
>
> I guess the cabinetmaking will just have to go back to being a weekend
> avocation- I always made more money at it like that anyway. Makes the
> home woodworking shop a whole lot more fun again, too.

True and it would be a lot easier to convince people to top post than to
teach them how to trim correctly and remember to do it. It will never
change, if someone can fu_k it up, they will.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There is little worse than scrolling down though a couple hundred lines of
> quoted text to find a "me too".

"mac davis" wrote in message

> He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per
the
> plans...

Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from
asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/21/06

> Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

[snip]
>>
>> I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to
>> do the
>> work for them at any price.
>
> Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or
> the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with
> problems on both sides.
>
I like that answer. It's either friends or an arms-length relationship, but
can't be both. I've been in similar circumstances, providing sophisticated
spreadsheets and other computer programs. For me, I won't charge for my
time because I'm not a computer professional and can't/won't warranty my
work. Neither would I guarantee my woodwork. Once you start getting paid
for something, you have an obligation to (a) do it right, (b) do it
professionally, and (c) fix it when necessary. Regards --

In article <[email protected]>, duckecho@gmail-
dot-.com says...
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The only thing that made it worth tuning in to was the discussion on
> top/bottom posting.
>

I thought it was a troll, after the OP just quietly disappeared.

However, I really enjoyed the different stories that came out, and to see
different people's views on the topic. Never mind the [troll].

My own experiences are generally fantastic, with one sole exception where
friends asked me to build them a two-seater, and we agreed that they would
supply the timber and it would cost "350-450 in labour" -- they arrived with
the cheque for 350 already written out. Duly noted and the next time they got
charged full commercial rates for labour :) and I pay them full rates for the
excellent salami they make.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Agreed. :)
Maybe I should start side posting. :)

"TBM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Well, that might be applicable if we were talking about PINs or ATMs or
> other acronyms, but we are not.
>
> As I said before, even though there is a logical reason why people should
> bottom post, the MOST important thing is that everyone does it the same
way
> (so conversation flows in the same direction, either or up or down (not up
> then down and then to the middle)). Its like driving on the right side of
> the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.
>
> My little unscientific poll clearly shows that majority of the poster in
> rec.woodworking bottom post, so you should too, otherwise you might cause
an
> accident. ;)
>
> I enjoy your posts and I know you are an intelligent person, so at this
> point I think you are just being stubborn and argumentative.
>
>

" At this point in time" makes perfect sense. If one were to say "at this
point", he did not specify what point he was referring to. It could be a
point in the room, a point in the galaxy, the point on his head. By saying
"at this point in time", he is specifying a specific point. Kind of like a
car salesman standing in front of a lot of 500 cars and saying "this car is
the best deal on the lot". Which car? He didn't say.


"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> One that always bugs me is "at this point in time"

in 1312984 20060902 104412 Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:11:55 GMT, Bob Martin <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>in 1312779 20060901 032519 "TBM" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Its like driving on the right side of
>>>the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.
>>
>>I think you are a little confused - every country in Europe, with the exception of the UK,
>>drives on the right.
>
>Wrong. You missed out Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, and if I were being
>pedantic Jersey, Guernsey and Alderney.
>
>There is also one street in central London where traffic drives on the
>right - Savoy Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Court

OK, I should have qualified UK as including possessions and one-time colonies etc

"woodpassion" wrote
I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.
>
> woodpassion

BTDT. I *usually* say, "If you pay me what *you* think I'm worth, I'll be
insulted; If you pay me what *I* think I'm worth, You'll be insulted".
"Just pay me enough to ensure that I won't turn you down next time."

Max

Dave Hall <[email protected]> wrote:

> Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
> wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
> reply button. Most folks can figure it out.

I'm reminded of an observation made by what I considered a wise man.

1) There are over a billion Chinese people on this earth.

2) Possibly 50-100 million of them have ever heard of this subject
under discussion.

3) Possibly 10-25 million of them understand the subject under discussion.

4) Out of that group, what are the chances you can find 10,000 of them
that give a F**K about the subject under discussion?

Lew

LRod wrote:
>
> While W&B may be part of it, I've long had a theory that the reason
> the Bonanza had such a reputation is that doctors were among the very
> few that could afford a Bonanza (and the Bonanza is/was right near the
> top of the desirability scale in single engine aircraft) straight out
> of the box after getting a license without working up to it through
> progressively more complex airplanes like the rest of us have to. Lack
> of experience basically, or as we in the ATC business used to say: a
> hundred mile an hour pilot in a 200 mile an hour airplane.

That exact explanation might go for a Cirrus today. Next? VLJ's! A
400 MPH, 30,000 ft. doctor!

> My experience, by the way, is mostly from the IFR
> perspective, which only adds to the complexity issue.

Boy does it ever. That's something that a good, modern GPS (and the
proper training in it's use) really helps simplify. Autopilots are much
cheaper and more prevalent than the early Bonanza days, as well.

Best doctor-pilot story I've heard in a while, told to me at a fly-in in
July, by a guy based at the field where it supposedly happened:

At Republic, which is ~10 NM ENE of JFK, a Bonanza runs off the end of
the runway. FRG has ~5500 and 6500 ft runways, not exactly short or
difficult to stay on for a piston single. Upon arrival, they find a
slightly damaged aircraft with no one aboard. EMS & Airport personnel
literally beat the bushes for hours looking for the occupant(s),
thinking injured or stunned people wandered off and collapsed or got
lost on airport property. A few hours later, Dr. Anon and his
"companion" (daughter??? <G>), whom he doesn't want listed on reports,
appear at the FBO asking for the location and condition of the plane.
Where were they? They were late for dinner reservations!

I don't know if it's really true, but the guy telling it is a local cop
on Long Island.

I do. But I tend to remember the posts I'm interested in and or following.
How about we all try posting in the middle for awhile ? That way everyone
is pissed off :-)
Jim
"Tim Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Would that be Eastern time or Central time?
> Now, who knows what I'm talking about without having to scroll down and
> read?
>
> "alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:41:06 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
>>>>>> you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> 300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guess who's the 1?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LRod
>>>>>
>>>>>In IT, some of us have a similar issue with the phrase "NIC card".
>>>>>
>>>>>todd
>>>>>
>>>>Or "The suspect left the scene in a car that was red in color"
>>>
>>>How about, "I got up at 6 AM in the morning."?
>>
>> But don't get me started on 12:00 a.m and 12:00 p.m. <g>
>> --
>> Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked
>> infrequently.
>
>

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
CW wrote:

>> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
>
> Same here with the machinists.

>Before retiring, I did some software for a rolling mill to control and
report
>on some automated roll grinders. I asked if the automated equipment was
>better than the work the machinists did. The reply was no, the machinists
>did better, but they were retiring and replacements could not be found.

>Seems a shame. It's not a low pay job by any means. I guess the problem
is
>just a perception of machining as a low status blue collar job.

Seems the majority of the general public don't even know what it is. My own
parents had no idea for many years. As machine shops are generally located
in some industrial park and they have no contact with the general public,
there's no reason anybody would know. People also seem to have little
interest in building anything anymore (present company excepted).

woodpassion wrote:
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

<snip>

Personally, after the first experience, I wouldn't take the job but if
you decide differently:

1. Calculate how long you think the job will take.

2. I find the general rule of thumb is that all jobs take twice as long
as planned so double your initial guess.

3. Multiply the hours by the hourly dollar amount your comfortable
working for.

4. For this couple, triple the amount in step 3.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

> <snip> Said friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they
> ordered out for lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in
> their basement. <snip>

Several occasions?

After the first, I would have just stopped work when they ate, and gone on
at LEAST a two hour lunch. And, I wouldn't have even let them know I was
leaving. If they asked, I woudda just said, "Hey, I have to eat. There was
a waiting list at Ruth's Chris."

I consider it an insult if you're going for food not to at least ask me if I
want something, even if I have to pony up the $. To do otherwise is rude
and inconsiderate. And if you put up with it "on several occasions", you
need to look at yourself. One time should have told you all you needed to
know. From all you have posted, these people were rude and insulting in
many ways. Why did you stay so long? And why in the world are you
considering MORE work? The money's nice, but when you get treated worse
than a prostitute, the money isn't an issue any more.

Keeping workmen at the site is just good business and cost effective.
Besides, if they stay there, you know they aren't out slamming a couple of
40s for lunch.

MHO, YMMV

Steve

B A R R Y wrote:

> Bonanza training wheels. <G>

AKA: Split tailed doctor killer, as it was told to me.

Lew

The reluctance to train is for a reason. It costs well over $100.00 per hour
to train somebody. Finding someone that wants to learn is hard. Many that
claim they want to learn, after finding out it is real work, lose
enthusiasm. Over the past couple of years, I have attempted to train about
ten people. All washed out except one. The plan that you suggest assumes
someone wants to do the work. Very few do.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.
>
>
> You just hit the nail on the head ... shops are reluctant to train.

Buddy your way too friendly and your so called "friends " are taking
advantage of you. Up here in Central Canada there are very few Carpenters
around as most are in Alberta making big bucks . The going rate here is 30$
40$ per hour for Reno's etc. Canada is just screaming for trades people, but
of course you can't come here because we have a lot of Terrorists.

Sal

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>>this site.
>
> Can't tell you how long it takes you to do any given thing- that's up
> to your own experience. But I charge $12/hr for friends, $15/hr for
> useful aquaintances, and $25/hr for strangers. The price goes up for
> strangers that look like they are going to give me headaches- I call
> that the asshole tax. Family and close friends pay me whatever they
> pay me, and I don't worry about it- to a point.
>
> All that being said, it's almost a better idea to just to work for
> nothing or refuse the work entirely if you want to make sure that you
> remain friends with some folks. It's getting to that point with my
> parents- I've remodeled half their house this year for a grand total
> of $80 and a pallet of used brick, and I've got to say, parents or no,
> I'd be happier getting nothing than $10 for twenty or thirty hours of
> work. Even though I know that's all they've got to spare, it's still
> a slap in the face to think that they could hand me a few bucks for a
> week of work and call it even. Keep that in mind when you set your
> prices for your friends- it can get grating after a while, especially
> if they need a lot of help, and begin to assume that you'll drop
> everything to do it.

If the curser is at the top, it's where it's supposed to be. Type your
message, then, before sending, scroll down and snip the as appropriate.

"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:44f93707$0$97228
> If the cursor's at the top, scroll down and trim until you get to where
> you want to reply.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:31:46 GMT, Roy <[email protected]> wrote:

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had
a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon
not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response,
then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused
practice.)

>This is a troll, right? Not to say this hasn't been a great thread to read, but this is the only
>post this person has made on usenet that I could find. Hasn't even chimed in on his own thread.
>
>Curious minds wonder, and in my case, sometimes wander.
>
>Troll or not, dropkick those bastids through the goal posts of life, and get on with your own.
>You'll be better off without that baggage.
>
>Regards,
>Roy
>
>
>On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>>this site.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

:)

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:34:21 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Agreed. :) Hmmm.
> >Maybe I should start side posting. :) That's an interesting
> > concept.

CW wrote:

> Say you read a book over a weeks time. Do you start
> from the beginning each time you pick it up or do you start were you
> left off?

Sterling analogy <shaking head> Of course the only way that analogy works
is if you are the only person reading the posts that you write. Funny, you
don't seem the type to engage in rhetorical masturbation.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Dave Hall <[email protected]> wrote:

>Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
>wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
>reply button. Most folks can figure it out.
>
>Dave Hall
>
>BTW Agent apparently positions the curser at the top.

Interesting. I guess it does. I never noticed that--just find it so
easy and logical to scroll down to the comment I am replying to that I
never noticed I was making such an effort.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:49:00 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"mac davis" wrote in message
>
>> He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per
>the
>> plans...
>
>Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from
>asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

Exactly.... I think a good designer/builder can see things shaping up during
construction and suggest little changes that will enhance the home... and he
damn sure didn't do that for them.. *g*

Also, (their house was started a few months before ours) he didn't like the way
the plywood under the verandas looked on their house and asked if we'd rather
have exposed beams.. at no added costs... He's a pretty cool dude..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:06:31 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>True and it would be a lot easier to convince people to top post than to
>teach them how to trim correctly and remember to do it. It will never
>change, if someone can fu_k it up, they will.
>
>"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> There is little worse than scrolling down though a couple hundred lines of
>> quoted text to find a "me too".
>
Yeah... make something fool proof and someone will invent a bigger fool... *g*

I "snip" a lot but when I remember to, I find that (in Agent) if I highlight the
text that I'm replying to, that's all that will be in the post...

OTOH, when things are "snipped" incorrectly, it can appear that someone else was
the OP or that "CW said" when actually it was a prior poster...
Or something like that..... I need more caffeine before any thinking is gonna
take place..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Needless to say, we're not getting along so well any more, but you
> know what they say, with friends like that...

Been there, done that. Every time my brother had a problem, arrested on
outstanding warrants for parking tickets needed to be bailed out of jail in
the middle of the night, car towed needed money to get it out of the pound,
etcetera, he called me. The one time I asked him for help, he was too busy
playing hockey. The last we talked was over ten years ago. I feel bad when
family matters come up, but feel a whole lot better not worrying anymore
about what kind of crap he's into. It's done, finished, I just don't need
the aggravation. Family in the right circumstances is great, sometimes it
sucks.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

> Wow, I actually agree with Larry on something. :-)

Yabbut this is a religious issue, not a political one.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06

"todd" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
>> you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something like
>> 300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.
>>
>> Guess who's the 1?
>>
>> LRod
>
>In IT, some of us have a similar issue with the phrase "NIC card".
>
>todd
>

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:52:24 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
>> you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
>> for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
>> let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
>> confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
>> out, maybe they won't.
>
>Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and
>how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything for
>if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to
>cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when
>I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it
>without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there to
>help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even think
>of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes down
>to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance
>for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it any
>other way.
>

The OP painted a picture of friends that used him for free labor and
knowledge on a major project and couldn't even go so far as to think
of him when carry out food was ordered.

It's that kind of situation I was addressing.

The kind of friend you mention is a whole different ballgame. I don't
think the OP has that kind of relationship with them. Of course you
go the extra mile, heck, the extra hundred miles for a friend that's
like a brother.

On 29 Aug 2006 05:49:48 -0700, "foggytown" <[email protected]> wrote:


>There's a lot of wisdom been given here. Placing them at the top of
>your "ex-friend" list is a good approach. Because I'm the type of
>person I am I would be tempted to take another tack. Agree a
>reasonable price, get them to pay out for all the materials, start the
>job, create a big mess, and as soon as they start niggling at you just
>pack your tools up, say "Finito, Benito!" and walk away. Let them try
>to find a jobber who will take over someone else's incomplete project.
>
>FoggyTown

You have a really evil mind, Foggy..

I LIKE that in a person.. *g*

An evil mind is a terrible thing to waste???
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

It's not just Canada. The US is that way to. Has a lot to do with the push
in recent years for everyone to get into "information technology". No one
ever explained how a whole country was supposed to survive pushing
electrons for a living.

"sal" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
.> Canada is just screaming for trades people,

"woodpassion" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
> lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
> Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
> have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
> not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
> this site.
>
Don't do it.
If you can't even agree on how to bill you will never agree on if it was
done properly. If something goes wrong (and it will) you will wish you
listened to me.

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.

Same here with the machinists.

>Some of the
> local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
> Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
> there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.

Sounds like our shop. We haven't taken down our sign (about ten by fifteen
feet) in over a year. It's gotten so bad that I have been trying to train
people. Hard to find a good trainee. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
The average age of the skilled people is getting up their too. Average in
our shop is 51. (Makes me feel go though, I'm a young guy at 46 :)). We're
not going to be around forever.

>
> But I certainly agree- it's a rotten scheme that's been pushed on a
> lot of people. I've heard "Service sector" more than "information
> technology", but it amounts to the same thing. Never could figure out
> how anyone could imagine they'd do that well at selling services when
> nobody is producing tangible assets to export and make the money in
> the first place.

Yes, I hear a lot of that service bit too. I guess we're all supposed to buy
cheap Chinese crap and sell it to each other.

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:11:55 GMT, Bob Martin <[email protected]>
wrote:

>in 1312779 20060901 032519 "TBM" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Its like driving on the right side of
>>the road. Works great here, not so good in Europe.
>
>I think you are a little confused - every country in Europe, with the exception of the UK,
>drives on the right.

Wrong. You missed out Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, and if I were being
pedantic Jersey, Guernsey and Alderney.

There is also one street in central London where traffic drives on the
right - Savoy Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Court


--

"mac davis" wrote in message

> Doesn't the way the last poster "posts" determine where you do?

My tendency is to want to top post, I guess from my old BBS/Fido days.

I bottom post because "when in Rome..".

That said, IMO top posters are infinitely preferable to bottom posters who
are just too damn lazy to cut and edit ... including those who can't seem to
take out the !#$)*T# message id information.

There is little worse than scrolling down though a couple hundred lines of
quoted text to find a "me too".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06

This is a troll, right? Not to say this hasn't been a great thread to read, but this is the only
post this person has made on usenet that I could find. Hasn't even chimed in on his own thread.

Curious minds wonder, and in my case, sometimes wander.

Troll or not, dropkick those bastids through the goal posts of life, and get on with your own.
You'll be better off without that baggage.

Regards,
Roy


On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:40:38 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Want to move to Seattle? We don't have any lasers or(CNC) punch presses but
>mills, lathes and waterjet. Experience on these machines not required,
>ability to learn is. We will train.

Actually, I really do- the wife and I have been discussing
relocating, and Seattle and Portland made the top slots on the list.
You like it out there?

Ahh, now you've got that idea rearing it's head again. Tell you what-
if you're still looking in about a year and nine months (when the wife
finishes her degree,) you might just have yourself a new machinist in
the area. Worrying about finding work right away has been the biggest
concern we've had over the idea- I'm far past the stage where starving
and sleeping in a tent seems like an adventure to me!

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:45:45 -0700, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]>
wrote:

>B A R R Y wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:52:53 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Wow, I actually agree with Larry on something. :-)
>>>
>>>Yabbut this is a religious issue, not a political one.
>>
>>
>> As in Macs, recumbent bicycles, etc... <G>
>
>Or Neadertals vs Normites :-).
>
>But I bet "Mark & Juanita" agree with me on at least one political issue as
>well - the 2nd amendment :-).

Given the way you phrased that, I suspect you are right.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

> woodpassion wrote:
>> Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>> tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>> drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>> friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>> lunch on several occasions while I was slaving away in their basement.

Short story short. - - - - - These people are not friends


>> So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>> remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>> paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>> think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>> this site.

I think they are cheap bastards looking for a free ride or as close as they
can get. I'd charge $50 an hour if I'd do it at all. Not only should they
have paid for your lunch, they should have invited your wife to join you.

I'd just say "I can't take on a job like that right now" and give no
details. Once they pay you, they will think they own you and will really be
a PITA for years to come. Not worth the hassle. I'd get a tin can and
stand on the corner with a "Will Work For Food" sign before working for
these people.

On 29 Aug 2006 09:34:04 -0700, [email protected] wrote:


>I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING
>for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable
>guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade
>when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot
>drive to the next job.
>
<snip>

For sure... we're seeing the difference a little courtesy and consideration
makes on our house in Baja...

We're building next to our friends from CA, and using the same builder...

They're sort of "high maintenance" people and are pretty insistent that
deadlines be met, everything goes by the original plans, etc.. Sort of typical
Gringos, I'm afraid..

We're pretty laid back and always bring him a pen, bowl, wood burning, etc. when
we come down and go out of our way to tell him what a great job he's doing... If
we have a question or want something done differently, we try to be tactful and
compliment the rest of the work while requesting things..

The difference in the 2 houses is actually visible... there's is EXACTLY to
plan... period...

Our house, mostly due to the builders suggestions as we go, is better finished,
has more upgrades, (most at no charge), and only his best people work on it...
an example is that when I really started picturing working in the shop, I
realized that I should have asked 220v outlets on 2 more walls... he just said
"no problem" and had the electrician add them.. at no charge!

He called yesterday and asked if we wanted the windows installed in the center,
outside or inside of the wall space... something that hadn't even occurred to
me...
We talked a while and decided that since the walls were so thick, we'd center
them and leave a 4" sill on each side, something my wife likes the idea of...
He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per the
plans...

Just a reminder to myself that courtesy and respect go a long way... 2 things
that the OP's "friends" definitely didn't show for him...
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:36:01 GMT, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Dave Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Boy I love these little tiffs by the techies. Personally, I post
> > wherever the newsreader I am using positions the curser when I hit the
> > reply button. Most folks can figure it out.
>
>I'm reminded of an observation made by what I considered a wise man.
>
>1) There are over a billion Chinese people on this earth.
>
>2) Possibly 50-100 million of them have ever heard of this subject
>under discussion.
>
>3) Possibly 10-25 million of them understand the subject under discussion.
>
>4) Out of that group, what are the chances you can find 10,000 of them
>that give a F**K about the subject under discussion?
>

Yeah, but how many of *us* really give a rip about what 10,000 out of 1
billion Chinese think about anything. ;-)




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:26:36 -0000, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:07:09 +0000, CW wrote:
>
>> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
>>> Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists.
>>
>> Same here with the machinists.
>>
>>>Some of the
>>> local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
>>> Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
>>> there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.
>>
>> Sounds like our shop. We haven't taken down our sign (about ten by fifteen
>> feet) in over a year. It's gotten so bad that I have been trying to train
>> people. Hard to find a good trainee. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
>
>
>You just hit the nail on the head ... shops are reluctant to train. Where
>do you think machinists come from, anyways? Or carpenters or electricians?
>Kids coming out of public schools sure aren't (on average) 'much to look at'.
>
>Give 'em some training (sort those screws, take the burr off these parts,
>measure these pins) and insist that they also attend whatever classes are
>available locally just to keep their jobs. In their 'free-time' at work,
>let other employees assign them tasks / teach them how to use tools -
>select steel - run the saw - weld saw blades - use the hoist - measure
>accurately - and so on. I learned screw profiles from 'the boss', how to
>remove burrs and pressurize the Karto sprayer from a 'permanent bench
>hand',

>make CNC edits by watching the boss and then sneaking them in when
>he wasn't around. ;-) (makes you a VERY careful operator!)

Sounds a bit like how I learned it- reading the manuals while longer
jobs were running as a lowly operator (load/unload and push the start
button only), looking up general speed and feed information on the
internet at home, and working up from simple offset changes to full
setup and programming over the course of a couple of years. Might
have done it quicker with some mentoring, but since that wasn't
happening it was a matter of just watching others set up the the
machines and (very gingerly) taking that over without permission until
I got it down pat and could prove to the boss that I had earned the
job title. Place I'm at now is better than the others about that,
though- I got hired as a setup guy for the lasers and CNC punches, but
since they run so well between setups, I've got the foreman getting me
up to speed on everything else in the shop while the parts run, and
it's moving things along much more quickly.

I still prefer the work of carpentry and cabinetmaking- but after this
rotten year with layoff after layoff, I've gone back to a machine
shop, and it's amazing how appreciative they are to have someone who
knows what's going on these days. Guess it doesn't matter so much
what you prefer once you look at the difference in overall treatment-
the couple of machine shops I've been at have given me good raises on
a real regular basis and promotions, the construction contractors have
expected me to spend more money on tools than I was making and never
wanted to pay one cent more than they absolutely had to- and the
merest mention of paid vacations or health insurance sent them into
apoplectic fits. Seems "benefits" = "free beer (when the boss feels
like it)" to the local construction industry, and I'm not into it
anymore.

I guess the cabinetmaking will just have to go back to being a weekend
avocation- I always made more money at it like that anyway. Makes the
home woodworking shop a whole lot more fun again, too.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tear out of old paneling , framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.

>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input.

I've got a friend for whom I have done things. He's also a guy to
whom I have loaned tools. He's never expected me to work for free and
he's taken good care of my tools if he's done the work himself.

He recently asked me to make something for him. I worked up how much
I would charge for that, told him and didn't hear back. I guess his
situation can't fit that into his budget at this time. The work
hasn't been done by me, him or anyone else.

In the end, we're still friends.

The good part is the he recognizes that by asking me to make something
he's taking up my time and putting wear on my stuff and compensates
accordingly. Probably not as well as if I'd be doing this for a
stranger, but it still works out.

It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
out, maybe they won't.

"Tim Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> But don't get me started on 12:00 a.m and 12:00 p.m. <g>
>> --
>Would that be Eastern time or Central time?

>Now, who knows what I'm talking about without having to scroll down and
>read?
But if you had answered as above, including snipping stuff to which
you weren't replying, they'd sure know. <g>

Good point and well illustrated.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:34:21 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Agreed. :)
>>Maybe I should start side posting. :)
>
>I tried that in one of these "discussions"... It was WAY too much work...
>
>
>Question for the top OR bottom posting skirmishers:
>
>Doesn't the way the last poster "posts" determine where you do?
>
>In this case. CW top posted.... so I did,

Look again. You post is (quite logically, IMHO) below his.

>also to keep the thread of who said
>what, and in what order...

Because he top posted, you couldn't do that, so had to delete the
out-of order stuff below it to make sense. That deletion is probably
desireable--you don't need the whole thread for context, just the
portion to which you are replying.

>Will I go to hell if I answer inline????
I hope not. If so, I'll see you there...

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

When I have a project beyond my skills and I have a friend, neighbor, inlaw,
aquaintance that I know will do a good job, I insist on them NOT to give me
a discount. I want a job well done and am willing to pay for it. It's not
fair to them. Though they usually insist. I also help any way I can
without getting in the way.
I have a neighbor in the Home improve biz and asked his advice on patching
my roof after a large limb fell on it and created some minor leaks. He went
to his house 3 doors down, cut some coil stock, slid it under the damaged
shingles and nailed it down. 15-20 minutes max. Done. He would not accept a
penny. He did get a gift cert in the mail for the restaurant of his choice
along with a sincere thank you.


"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to
>> you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything
>> for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and
>> let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude
>> confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it
>> out, maybe they won't.
>
> Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and
> how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything
> for
> if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to
> cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when
> I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it
> without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there
> to
> help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even
> think
> of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes
> down
> to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance
> for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it
> any
> other way.
>
>

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> B A R R Y wrote:
>
> > Bonanza training wheels. <G>
>
> AKA: Split tailed doctor killer, as it was told to me.
>
> Lew


I prefer the looks of the straight tailed version myself. From what I
understand, the "killer" part of the plane is totally undeserved for any
qualified pilot willing to actually do weight and balance calculations.
Along with the "Dr. Killer", the Bo also has a very large following
of satisfied pilots and owners. Many higher-performance private planes
are easier to load tail heavy than a typical trainer. Mooneys, Cherokee
Sixes, Cessna 210's etc... all can be more difficult to fly than your
typical 172, Cherokee, or Musketeer.

I think the next excellent plane to get an undeserved "Dumb Dr."
reputation is the Cirrus SR22. A few folks have managed to panic and
deploy the "ballistic recovery parachute" during perfectly do-able
power-off landings. Once the parachute is deployed, directional control
is lost. Even without power, a piston single can land easily on
suitable terrain. One guy managed to pass up a power-off landing on
flat, wide open desert in favor of a parachute landing into an oil
refinery. <G>

Our Sundowner is actually nose-heavy. With two decent size adult males
in the front row and an empty back row, we end up carrying 100+ pounds
of water ballast in the rear baggage area. With rear seat passengers
it all comes together nicely without ballast.

In 2001, I had a co-worker stall and spin a Cherokee 6 at takeoff. The
accident killed all 6 aboard. The NTSB investigation determined he was
right at the gross weight and aft CG limits on a hot, humid day.

I agree with what the other posters have said:

1. Unless this is a legitimate charity case (which it does not seem to
be) tell them that your situation has changed and you are no longer
taking on these types of projects.
2. Just because they ASK you a question does not require that you
answer it. In this case, they are asking the wrong question to the
wrong person. Here is the RIGHT question:

Are you interested in taking on another project for us?

Here is the right answer: No, I would prefer that you find someone
else to do the that project for you.

If they persist with other questions, your response should be that you
have no knowledge of what prevailing rates and time required - that
would be something to ask whoever they consider. Do NOT give them an
estimate.

You can retain your relationship with these people (friends,
neighbors, etc.) by simply stating that while you will continue to
meet them socially, your priorities have changed and you do not have
the TIME do take on their project.

There just are some folks who don't "get it" when it comes to showing
appreciation for what you do for them, whether you are being fully
compensated or not. Poor folks - they just don't know no better. Their
bad manners are showing.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including
>tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed,
>drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said
>friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for
>lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement.
>Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and
>have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job
>not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker)
>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

If you want them to remain "friends", decline the work at any price.

You're already emotionally primed to have a conflict with them and
it'll only get worse if you take on the bathroom.

My advice only, and worth every penny you paid for it.

Good luck
Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:42:55 +0100, woodpassion
<[email protected]> wrote:

>So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement
>remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do
>paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
>worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
>hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
>think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate
>this site.

If it were me, I would run (not walk) away from that job.
If you've been around doing that kind of work, you surely know someone
who you can trust to do them a good job. Recommend someone else and
remain friends if you care to.

Mike O.

Somebody wrote:

> I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's
> worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an
> hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you
> think? Thanks for any input.

Pretty straight forward.

$1,500/4-8 hour day for anything that is legal.

$800/Anything less than 4 hours.

No overtime.

If the complain, tell them your rates are less than a lawyer.

Lew

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 02:31:39 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's not just Canada. The US is that way to. Has a lot to do with the push
>in recent years for everyone to get into "information technology". No one
>ever explained how a whole country was supposed to survive pushing
>electrons for a living.

Not everywhere in the US, at least. We've got plenty of carpenters in
Wisconsin, but there is a huge shortage of machinists. Some of the
local job shops I've seen have even taken to painting "Machinists
Wanted" on the side wall of their shops in huge letters. You know
there's a problem when they've got to resort to that.

But I certainly agree- it's a rotten scheme that's been pushed on a
lot of people. I've heard "Service sector" more than "information
technology", but it amounts to the same thing. Never could figure out
how anyone could imagine they'd do that well at selling services when
nobody is producing tangible assets to export and make the money in
the first place.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:38:22 -0700, "Steve B"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:
>
>1. Re: trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail.
>Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set
>the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.
>
>2. Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this
>job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and
>as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the
>discount rate.
>
>3. A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do,
>they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the
>work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness
>always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do,
>friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over
>the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY
>uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.

Here's a fourth one I learned really early as well-

When you give a friend a discount, make it very clear that your rate
is for them only. My standard line is "If I hear that you told anyone
what you paid me, any further work will be at three times what I'm
charging you now." It might seem like a nasty thing to say to a
friend, but if you don't, you WILL discover that they have friends you
don't know (and probably don't care for) that will be more than happy
to put you to work on the first guy's recommendation, but refuse to
pay one penny more than what they were told was the going rate. This
sort of thing runs out of control very quickly if you're any good and
word-of-mouth gets going. Pretty soon you can't find work that
doesn't have a pre-set ceiling on it, and you have to ditch a whole
circle of customers.

>Friends is friends, and business is business.
>
>Steve
>

I do. Learn to clip and keep top posting and you'll have it.

"Tim Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Would that be Eastern time or Central time?
> Now, who knows what I'm talking about without having to scroll down and
> read?
>
> "alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:41:06 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>"todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>>news:[email protected]...
> >>>>> If you do a poll of people who say "PIN number" or "ATM machine"
> >>>>> you'll get results even more skewed than that--probably something
like
> >>>>> 300:1. And all 300 of those on "popular" side are wrong.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Guess who's the 1?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LRod
> >>>>
> >>>>In IT, some of us have a similar issue with the phrase "NIC card".
> >>>>
> >>>>todd
> >>>>
> >>>Or "The suspect left the scene in a car that was red in color"
> >>
> >>How about, "I got up at 6 AM in the morning."?
> >
> > But don't get me started on 12:00 a.m and 12:00 p.m. <g>
> > --
> > Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked
> > infrequently.
>
>