Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)

On Jul 2, 3:06 am, John Doe <[email protected]> wrote:
> What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?
>
> By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
> I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
> screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.

A friend of mine used to sell those screw assortment packs in the
classifieds in the back of magazines. He said the markup was
unbelievable.

Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales.
Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and
they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell.
The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the
work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often
already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end.

R

I've found the assortment packs from Rockler to be very good quality
screws, and actually to be cheaper than buying the individual 100-
packs.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?sku=300&cs=1
These "Square-X" screws will drive with either a phillips (everyone
has one) or a square drive (works much better) bit. This combo pack
is only available online. Rockler are the only tapered head wood
screws I use now - don't bother with wood screws from Home Depot -
they're awful. One time I thought I'd save time by getting screws
there, and I twisted several heads off #10 screws. Waste of time and
money. And I haven't tried them, but McFeeley's wood screws are
supposed to be top of the line. They have combo packs also.

As far as countersinking, I have two suggestions: First, the Dewalt
tapered countersink bits (DW2567, DW2568) are the best ones I've tried
(better than Fuller or off-brands). These are available at Amazon and
my local TrueValue. Sometimes they go on sale at Amazon for about
$6.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000225OV/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-8732571-2011107?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance
Second, If you want a separate countersink bit, which is sometimes
handy, I've found this type by Lee Valley to work very well. Easy to
use, cuts cleanly. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=32308&cat=3,41306,41328
I just got one of these a couple weeks ago, and it's already earned a
permanent spot within easy reach by my bench. The Weldon brand
version of these countersinks is supposed to be top notch.

Hope this helps,
Andy

> Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like
> screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together!
>
> Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while
> OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw.


Wow - not my experience at all. Were all the ones you used from a
single batch? I've used at least several hundred Rockler wood screws,
bought at various times, different branches and online, so I didn't
just get a "fluke" good batch. I've NEVER had one fail, either while
driving or after assembly. Like I said, in my experience with Borg
screws, at LEAST 25% of them failed as I was driving, and other
batches have been equally unimpressive.
I can't say how Rockler's screws compare to McFeeley's, as I haven't
used McF's, but Rockler's have been 100% reliable for me, at a good
price, and I'm happy with that. I have seen their heads develop
surface rust on shop projects that were stored in damp basement
corners, but they don't claim to be rustproof or for outdoor use. I
haven't had any show rust in storage. If I wanted durable screws that
would be used in damp conditions or outdoor projects, I wouldn't use
Rockler's lube finished screws.
I'm not affiliated with Rockler or anyone else, just sharing my
positive experiences with reasonably-priced stuff.
Andy

On Jul 2, 9:29 am, Andy <[email protected]> wrote:

> As far as countersinking, I have two suggestions: First, the Dewalt
> tapered countersink bits (DW2567, DW2568) are the best ones I've tried
> (better than Fuller or off-brands). These are available at Amazon and
> my local TrueValue. Sometimes they go on sale at Amazon for about
> $6.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000225OV/ref=ord_cart...
> Second, If you want a separate countersink bit, which is sometimes
> handy, I've found this type by Lee Valley to work very well. Easy to
> use, cuts cleanly. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=32308&cat=3,41306,4...
> I just got one of these a couple weeks ago, and it's already earned a
> permanent spot within easy reach by my bench. The Weldon brand
> version of these countersinks is supposed to be top notch.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Andy

Just to add my $.02 on countersinks: avoid using ones with a single
cutting flute, unless it is the type that slides onto a drill bit. It
will make countersinks that are off-center from the drilled hole.
I've got a 5-flute countersink bit that works much better (forget
where I got it, probably either Ace, Home Depot, or Lowe's)

Mark

On Jul 2, 7:42 pm, Peter Huebner <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
> > Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
>
> What surprised me at first was, how a box of 1000 usually only costs as much as
> 2 or 3 100-packs. What surprised me even more was how quickly they're gone ;-)
>
> Those 'self-counter-sinking' screws are fine in plywood and softwood but I
> don't like using them with MDF since they often throw up a ridge around the
> head, so I use a countersink bit regardless. They don't work in hard wood. And
> they stink for screwing on metal hardware. Ironically, screws that don't have
> the ridges are harder to get in these parts now - I often have to put in a
> special order for them.
>
> I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price
> difference is negligible in bulk amounts.
>
> -P.
>
> --
> =========================================
> firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic I will add one
more story. A good many years ago I started a small cabinet making
business after a career as an engineer. I bought the new tools I
needed from a small shop who carried professional quality tools,
supplies and provided sharpening services. He eventually focused
solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG was selling tools for
less than he had to pay at wholesale.
Joe G

J. Clarke wrote:

>> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
>> court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
>> who lost heavily in the battles.
>
> I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.
>

SCO ... and, lately, the 800 pound gorilla has been making some rumbling
noises again.

--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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J. Clarke wrote:

>
>> It's
>> like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
>> but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
>> server market level.
>
> You mean that Linux ceased to exist? I must have missed another memo.
> I'm sorry, but nobody is forcing you to use Windows. If you can't find
> an alternative, it's because you aren't looking very hard, same as for
> fasteners.


Having already paid for it, so long as Windows works 'well enough' (tm),
there is little incentive to just pitch it and try something else.

I've been a Linux user for several (10+) years. But I've never pulled
Windows off a machine before it fell apart on its own.

Nor have I ever re-installed it. Ain't happenin' Jack.

Bill


--
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http://nmwoodworks.com


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J. Clarke wrote:
> BillinDetroit wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>>> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
>>>> court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
>>>> who lost heavily in the battles.
>>> I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.
>>>
>> SCO ... and, lately, the 800 pound gorilla has been making some
>> rumbling noises again.
>
> The SCO lawsuit seems to be suicide by lawyer--they were hoping IBM
> would cave and give them a big settlement and it appears that IBM has
> decided to hammer them into the ground instead.
>
> As for Microsoft "rumbling", OIN is rumbling back, and it appears that
> OIN can hurt Microsoft worse than Microsoft can hurt Linux.
>

Agreed ... this should make for yet another interesting school yard scrap.

Bill
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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"dpb" wrote in message

> Leading to the possibility that both accounts are accurate from their
> own experience.

Nahh ... too wishy washy, IMO. :)

Let me put it more "accurately": When you're building/installing $$,$$$.$$
custom kitchens, you will only attempt to do so with Rockler screws ONCE".

(Well, maybe twice, cuz you thought you got a "bad batch" the first time ...
but you didn't!)

Now, that's "accurate", guaranteed! :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Andy" wrote in message
> > Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work,
like
> > screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together!
> >
> > Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and,
while
> > OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality
screw.
>
>
> Wow - not my experience at all. Were all the ones you used from a
> single batch?

Yeah ... one batch for the last five custom kitchens ... hardly likely. :)

Re-read the first three words you quoted above.

> I can't say how Rockler's screws compare to McFeeley's, as I haven't
> used McF's,

The more you get into woodworking the more you realize that, for the most
part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese/cheap and pretty much suck,
particularly on what can be considered woodworking "supply" items.

You admitted that you haven't tried McFeely's screws, a requirement in order
to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair with
Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

John Doe wrote:

> Dude... you're the one with the love affair. Personally, I prefer
> having at least two choices I can live with.

When you get dry behind the ears, maybe you will know what to look for
when selecting a supplier.

Lew

John Doe <[email protected]> wrote in news:1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:

>
> What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?

I usually buy screws at the hardware store. If I know I'll need a lot,
I'll buy a lot. I rarely buy assortment packs, as I usually don't need
10-1/2" screws, 4-5/8", 20-3/4" screws, etc.

> By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
> I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
> screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.
>

Self-tapping screw heads usually work ok. If you're working anywhere
near the edge of a piece of wood, though, you should predrill for the
screw. With the cost of screw guns (and drills) it's worth buying a
second one to dedicate to drilling. It's much easier to switch between
drills than it is to switch between bits.

The drill bits that make room for the screw head are called
"countersinks" or "countersunk". You can get them alone, or at the end
of a drill bit. (You can even use a drill bit to countersink a screw
head, but it's not always easy to do accurately.)

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

McFeeleys's - the DIY Dozen. If you have not "converted" to sqaure drive,
do it now.


"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?
>
> By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
> I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
> screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.
>
>
>
>
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
>> ...for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese...
>
> That's the rub for me -- it's sorta' like the HF deal -- there's no
> telling what will get unloaded off the boat the next time. From one
> reorder to the next they're likely to have completely changed suppliers so
> there's no guarantee that what was satisfactory/good the last time will be
> the next...

Must have gone to the Sears-Roebuck school of made-by-the-lowest-bidder.

We've been twisting these screws for the last ten years or so:
http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm and I can count on one
hand the number of heads that have twisted off. And, they're not Chinese
although they are Canadian. Here in Houston, Circle Saw is the only source
I've ever been able to locate though, ironically, I find them at South Texas
rural Do-It-Best hardware centers and, for about the same price which is
usually around $6.00/lb.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston

Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:

...

> www.mcfeeleys.com

I like their simple/clear illustrations.
Bought a zinc plated #8 assortment (that includes a required
squarehead screw bit and screwdriver) and a 1/8" x 3/8" countersink
thingy. Shipping was only $7.50 (US) so I passed on the unplated screw
assortment pack. Yada yada yada.

I've noticed square drill bits at the hardware store lately.

Mostly off-topic, and for what it's worth. I like the point choices of
their "security" screw bit assortment pack, but looks like the screw
bits fit into a magnetic holder. Seems to me most of the problem
fasteners are recessed in a narrow hole. Currently, I have a set of
thin torx screwdrivers. Would like some of those two point type screw
bits too, but on the end of narrow shafts. And then maybe an
assortment of star drive stuff. Maybe some day. At least square
bits/tips are easy to understand :)

Have fun... see you later.











> Patriarch

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>
> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing
> price over quality in the most part...
>
> --

In Swingman's case, he probably paid more for the Rockler screws that he
would have from McFeeley's. Ironically I have found that most often the
more expensive the screw the poorer the quality. This is mostly because you
pay a lot for the convenience of getting the screw in a smaller quantity and
today.

dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

> Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>
> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
> choosing price over quality in the most part...

Yup, lulled by the misconception that his (or her) government wouldn't
allow him to destroy his own society. To me, it's like voting with my
money. Instead of voting for the same old Republican or Democrat, I
use money to vote for either democracy or communism. If we vote for
communism too much, then our government will be able to put the blame
squarely on us, saying "you were free to do whatever you wanted, you
could have chosen democracy but you chose otherwise".

Wake up people.

At the same time, don't believe the "globalism" garbage. Leaders of
the free world have and could have us trade amongst ourselves,
forever. Communist countries cannot compete, we've proved that
already. Globalism is probably just a way for the bigger companies to
beat up on the smaller companies.

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet cox.net> wrote:

> Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "dpb" <none non.net> wrote
>>
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>>>
>>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>>>
>> Yes, you could argue that.
>>
>> But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and
>> in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would
>> not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make
>> decisions that make it harder for the rest of us.
>>
>> And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If
>> mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be
>> available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the
>> bastards are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners
>> locally.

> Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing
> not to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your
> contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability?

That lack of availability driving the price sky high.

> If so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to
> fastener failure.

Nope. Big companies that make planes can get whatever they want. It's
like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
server market level.











>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>
>
>
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> From: "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet cox.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
> Subject: Re: Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:55:15 -0400
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"John Doe" opined

> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair
>> with Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed.
>
> Dude... you're the one with the love affair. Personally, I prefer
> having at least two choices I can live with.

If I need something quick and dirty, I can go to the big box stores and get
some that will work about half of the time.

If I need something that is quality and just right for the job, I go to an
industrial fastener house.

The thing that is interesting to me is that many people do not realize there
are such things as quality fasteners.

I wrote:

www.mcfeeleys.com

> Bought a zinc plated #8 assortment (that includes a required
> squarehead screw bit and screwdriver) and a 1/8" x 3/8" countersink
> thingy. Shipping was only $7.50 (US) so I passed on the unplated
> screw assortment pack.

Umm.

Both of the items ordered were listed as in stock. I do a lot of
online shopping, I never order backordered products. Even if any of
those products have been listed as backordered, they explicitly state
"McFeely's does not charge additional shipping for items that are
backordered."

I was told that the screws were backordered, but they immediately
charged for the entire order plus shipping.

Yesterday, McFeely's Square Drive Screws removed more money from my
bank account, a duplicate charge equal to part of the order plus
shipping.

Screwing with my bank account rubs me the wrong way.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
>

What surprised me at first was, how a box of 1000 usually only costs as much as
2 or 3 100-packs. What surprised me even more was how quickly they're gone ;-)

Those 'self-counter-sinking' screws are fine in plywood and softwood but I
don't like using them with MDF since they often throw up a ridge around the
head, so I use a countersink bit regardless. They don't work in hard wood. And
they stink for screwing on metal hardware. Ironically, screws that don't have
the ridges are harder to get in these parts now - I often have to put in a
special order for them.

I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price
difference is negligible in bulk amounts.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic I will add one
> more story. A good many years ago I started a small cabinet making
> business after a career as an engineer. I bought the new tools I
> needed from a small shop who carried professional quality tools,
> supplies and provided sharpening services. He eventually focused
> solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG was selling tools for
> less than he had to pay at wholesale.
> Joe G

Yupp. Friend of mine had a small computer business once. The wholesale
prices he got were more than some of the retail I paid (elsewhere).

The dice are loaded.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

...

> to make objective judgments. Give them a try and your love affair
> with Rockler screws will evaporate, guaranteed.

Dude... you're the one with the love affair. Personally, I prefer
having at least two choices I can live with.

"Andy" wrote in message

> I've found the assortment packs from Rockler to be very good quality
> screws, and actually to be cheaper than buying the individual 100-
> packs.
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?sku=300&cs=1
> These "Square-X" screws will drive with either a phillips (everyone
> has one) or a square drive (works much better) bit. This combo pack
> is only available online. Rockler are the only tapered head wood
> screws I use now - don't bother with wood screws from Home Depot -
> they're awful. One time I thought I'd save time by getting screws
> there, and I twisted several heads off #10 screws. Waste of time and
> money. And I haven't tried them, but McFeeley's wood screws are
> supposed to be top of the line. They have combo packs also.

Voice of experience: Do NOT to trust Rockler screws for critical work, like
screwing adjacent cabinet face frames together!

Rockler screws are barely a cut above those you buy at the Borg's and, while
OK for many shop tasks, they simply will not perform like a quality screw.

It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ... if you need a wood
screw you can rely on, McFeely's is a good way to go.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

John Doe <[email protected]> wrote in news:1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:

>
> What's your favorite online place to buy wood screw assortment packs?
>
> By the way. Are self tapping screw heads any good? Mainly curious.
> I'll probably buy some of those drill bits that make room for the
> screw head. Sorry, don't know the terminology.
>
www.mcfeeleys.com

great products, reasonable prices. Occasional wReck participant.

no affiliation, etc.

Patriarch

dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> John Doe wrote:
> ...
>
>> ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
> ...
>
> How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors
> of Linux, et al., ...
>
> --

There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The court
fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those who lost
heavily in the battles.

Patriarch

dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Patriarch wrote:
>> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> John Doe wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
>>> ...
>>>
>>> How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free
>>> flavors of Linux, et al., ...
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
>> court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
>> who lost heavily in the battles.
>
> There were always alternatives and I personally don't think it was
> ever in doubt there would be...
>
> imo, etc., ...
>
> --
>

Yes, there were alternatives. But some of the ways that the pricing was
set, buyers, even of just main boards, still ended up paying for a copy of
Windows...

Many things have changed. But not all.

Patriarch

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote

> Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>
> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing
> price over quality in the most part...
>
Yes, you could argue that.

But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many
venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case.
However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder
for the rest of us.

And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps
really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along
the low priced consumer crap. You know the bastards are winning when you
can't even buy good fasteners locally.

Peter Huebner wrote:
>
> I use stainless with square drive almost exclusively these days. Price
> difference is negligible in bulk amounts.

Same here.

I also like the way McFeely's square drive screws don't have tapered
threads. They hold better in a straight sided hole, and eliminate
faffing around with tapered drills.

RicodJour wrote:
> Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
> You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales.
> Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and
> they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell.
> The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the
> work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often
> already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end.


That's a terrific idea.

B A R R Y wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>> Probably better to buy screws by the hundred box as you need them.
>> You can also get huge quantities of screws at tag and garage sales.
>> Estate tag sales are the best as you're in the guy's basement and
>> they're looking to clear out everything and the screws _never_ sell.
>> The people running the tag sale would be thrilled for you to do the
>> work getting them out of the house for them. The fasteners are often
>> already in some homemade storage rack to simplify things on your end.
>
>
> That's a terrific idea.

My luck has always been all that's there is the myriad of coffee cans
full of miscellaneous stuff all throwed together--or, the organized set
that sells for more than it would new... :(

--

Swingman wrote:
...

> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...

I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
choosing price over quality in the most part...

--

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Swingman wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer choosing
>> price over quality in the most part...
>>
> Yes, you could argue that.
>
> But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in many
> venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be the case.
> However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions that make it harder
> for the rest of us.
>
> And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If mega corps
> really gave a damn about us, quality products would be available right along
> the low priced consumer crap. You know the bastards are winning when you
> can't even buy good fasteners locally.
...

Supply follows demand whether you wish to hear it or not...insufficient
demand will lead to not carrying a product (or at least not stocking
it--non-moving inventory is expensive).

--

Swingman wrote:
...

> ...for the most part, Rockler branded items are mostly chinese...

That's the rub for me -- it's sorta' like the HF deal -- there's no
telling what will get unloaded off the boat the next time. From one
reorder to the next they're likely to have completely changed suppliers
so there's no guarantee that what was satisfactory/good the last time
will be the next...

Leading to the possibility that both accounts are accurate from their
own experience. (Altho I agree McF's is uniformly top-notch).

--

Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Swingman wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>
>
> I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
> corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
> quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
> profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
> corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
> make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
> know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
> choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.
>
> And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
> manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
> cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
> own store brand and get it from China ourselves.

It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
their job.

Unfortunately, the success of the mass retailers isn't owing to their
profit margin, it's that the customer has gone there and selected price
as their dominant factor in choice.

Small numbers of consumers (relatively, and I consider myself one of
them and can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of time I have
been in the Super-Center in the last year) will select on the basis of
other reasons but, for the most part, there simply aren't enough of them
(high-end consumers) to support them (merchandisers).

Consider how often do you go to the Borg for a common item because it is
10 cents cheaper than the "real" lumber yard? Yet expect the yard to
have all the "good stuff" that the Borg doesn't carry? Just can't work
that way. (And that's not meant to be specifically "you personally",
but as an "editorial you" because you can certainly recognize the trait
as being widespread).

--

Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>>>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>>>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>>>
>>> I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
>>> corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
>>> quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
>>> profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
>>> corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
>>> make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
>>> know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
>>> choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.
>>>
>>> And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
>>> manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
>>> cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
>>> own store brand and get it from China ourselves.
>> It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
>> their job.
>>
> Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight
> are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend
> income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that
> for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal
> compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term.

Whether management for short term stock price targets is a crime is
surely debatable at best. Whether it is or isn't a wise management
practice is a different question, of course. The problem tends to
revolve around Boards of Directors who take too passive of a role in
oversight imo, and I won't disagree about compensation plans that tend
to reward poor behavior.

But, overall, the problems are deeper-rooted and ultimately for retail
most noticeably, driven by the competitive markets.

--

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Swingman wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>>
>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>>
> Yes, you could argue that.
>
> But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and in
> many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would not be
> the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make decisions
> that make it harder for the rest of us.
>
> And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If
> mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be
> available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the
> bastards are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners locally.

Quality products are readily available. You just have to find them and
be willing to pay the price.

For fasteners, most cities of any size have several suppliers who deal
in nothing but fasteners and the tools to install them, and those
suppliers can get you just about anything that you want. But they are
not "home centers" or mom-and-pop hardware stores.

Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing not
to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your
contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability? If
so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to
fastener failure.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

> You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
> consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
> many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
> the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
> on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
> that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.

I don't "think" it is consumer driven, I observe that it is...

The election is made by the choice at where the dollars are being spent.
The surest way to get the box stores to go away is for the crowds that
frequent them to go someplace else. Until they do, they won't.

> It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
> there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
> difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
> all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.
>
> The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
> have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
> that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
> taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
> to "survive".

Oh, but au contraire... :( Were it but true. In general, the "loyal
customer base" is loyal until the next bid cycle goes out and a
competitor comes in with a price a nickel lower. The few (if any) who
really would be loyal simply are not enough except in very rare
instances to even maintain a business what more grow it.

It is definitely true in all consumer/retail goods (which is what I'd
estimate at least 70-80+% of the participants here are familiar with) as
opposed to "true" industrial supply.

But, even in that environment, an example -- Have a very good friend who
is an engineer whose expertise is in management of casting foundries.
Have known him for almost 40 years now. In that time he has gone from
the small, family-owned independent single-supplier/customer mills
(brake castings, etc., for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.), to the
Japanese-owned multi-facilities under consolidated ownership as the
industry has changed. One of his former facilities makes high-precision
castings for the electrical transmission field amongst other things.
For almost 75 years, this particular company/mill had about 75% of the
US market. Over the last 10 years this has dropped to less than 50%
owing to--you guessed it! Chinese imports taking business from their
"loyal" customers. Quality is as good as theirs, price is competitive,
but the differential is something they can't match and produce in the
US. So much for "loyalty". :(

Their niche now is in fast turnaround but large bulk routine product is
now coming from suppliers to them from overseas. Needless to say, this
isn't a choice they have made on their own. Their revenues are roughly
equivalent but margins are _way_ down. Revenues are helped
significantly in the present market climate by the huge expansion in
generation capabilities in China and India and the ensuing
infrastructure expansion. When that slows as it eventually will, it's
anybody's guess as to what their future holds. At present it certainly
doesn't look rosy for the long term unless/until they find new
markets/products.

It IS a global economy for good or ill and wishing it weren't isn't
going to make it so. In the long run it will probably work out for the
better. In the short run, there's going to be yet more upheaval and
restructuring.

But, unless there is a _MAJOR_ shift in the US publics' buying habits,
the days of the box stores and all seem ahead of them...

IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

John Doe wrote:
...

> ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
...

How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors
of Linux, et al., ...

--

Patriarch wrote:
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
>> ...
>>
>> How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free flavors
>> of Linux, et al., ...
>>
>> --
>
> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The court
> fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those who lost
> heavily in the battles.

There were always alternatives and I personally don't think it was ever
in doubt there would be...

imo, etc., ...

--

John Doe wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Lee Michaels wrote:
>>> "dpb" <none non.net> wrote
>>>
>>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>>>>
>>>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>>>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>>>>
>>> Yes, you could argue that.
>>>
>>> But I submit that quality is often not even available locally and
>>> in many venues. If corporate greed was not a factor, this would
>>> not be the case. However you look at it, a lot of scumbags make
>>> decisions that make it harder for the rest of us.
>>>
>>> And I don't want to hear the pure economic model crap either. If
>>> mega corps really gave a damn about us, quality products would be
>>> available right along the low priced consumer crap. You know the
>>> bastards are winning when you can't even buy good fasteners
>>> locally.
>
>> Now, how does "corporate greed" result in local businesses choosing
>> not to stock what you consider to be "good fasteners"? Is it your
>> contention that the decision is the result of lack of availability?
>
> That lack of availability driving the price sky high.

Or maybe the cost of producing fasteners at the quality level you demand
is what drives the price?

>> If so, then planes should be falling out of the sky every day due to
>> fastener failure.
>
> Nope. Big companies that make planes can get whatever they want.

Which means that the fasteners _are_ available. Or are you now claiming
some global conspiracy in which the aircraft manufacturers are in
cahoots with the fastener manufacturers to prevent anybody but aircraft
manufacturers from obtaining the fasteners that the aircraft
manufacturers use?

> It's
> like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
> but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
> server market level.

You mean that Linux ceased to exist? I must have missed another memo.
I'm sorry, but nobody is forcing you to use Windows. If you can't find
an alternative, it's because you aren't looking very hard, same as for
fasteners.

>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Path:
>> newssvr29.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm05.news.prodigy.net!newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2
>> From: "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet cox.net>
>> Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>> Subject: Re: Buy wood screw assortment packs? (online USA)
>> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:55:15 -0400
>> Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95
>> Lines: 44
>> Message-ID: <f6dkpm0289d news2.newsguy.com>
>> References: <1u1ii.8614$bP5.2943 newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>
>> <4688aecb$0$97216$892e7fe2 authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>
>> <gX2ii.13423$vi5.11386 newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>
>> <1183382958.130041.92920 w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
>> <U6mdnTxXD6uinxTbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d giganews.com> <f6b1bb$2ir$1
>> aioe.org> <Ze6dnf2E2PlDlxTbnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d comcast.com>
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--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Patriarch wrote:
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> John Doe wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
>> ...
>>
>> How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free
>> flavors of Linux, et al., ...
>>
>> --
>
> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
> court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
> who lost heavily in the battles.

I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Patriarch wrote:
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Patriarch wrote:
>>> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> ... Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> How's that? There's Mac, multiple flavors of Unix and even free
>>>> flavors of Linux, et al., ...
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
>>> court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
>>> who lost heavily in the battles.
>>
>> There were always alternatives and I personally don't think it was
>> ever in doubt there would be...
>>
>> imo, etc., ...
>>
>> --
>>
>
> Yes, there were alternatives. But some of the ways that the pricing
> was set, buyers, even of just main boards, still ended up paying for
> a copy of Windows...

Which doesn't mean that you're obligated to use it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

BillinDetroit wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>
>>> It's
>>> like Windows. Ordinary consumers are stuck under Microsoft's thumb,
>>> but Window's dominance was stopped before it reached the corporate
>>> server market level.
>>
>> You mean that Linux ceased to exist? I must have missed another
>> memo. I'm sorry, but nobody is forcing you to use Windows. If you
>> can't find an alternative, it's because you aren't looking very
>> hard, same as for fasteners.
>
>
> Having already paid for it, so long as Windows works 'well enough'
> (tm), there is little incentive to just pitch it and try something
> else.

Most people don't care whether they already paid for it. What matters
is that it's on the machine and works well enough so why mess with
anything else.
>
> I've been a Linux user for several (10+) years. But I've never pulled
> Windows off a machine before it fell apart on its own.
>
> Nor have I ever re-installed it. Ain't happenin' Jack.

I've managed Unix shops and Windows shops and don't see a lot to choose
between them.

I don't let what came on the machine influence how I use it--I generally
ditch the bundled OS regardless, if there is a bundled OS.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

BillinDetroit wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> There is now. For a while, it was touch and go and grumble. The
>>> court fight was something to behold, but there were certainly those
>>> who lost heavily in the battles.
>>
>> I don't recall this "court fight" over Linux.
>>
>
> SCO ... and, lately, the 800 pound gorilla has been making some
> rumbling noises again.

The SCO lawsuit seems to be suicide by lawyer--they were hoping IBM
would cave and give them a big settlement and it appears that IBM has
decided to hammer them into the ground instead.

As for Microsoft "rumbling", OIN is rumbling back, and it appears that
OIN can hurt Microsoft worse than Microsoft can hurt Linux.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:09:20 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>>>>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>>>>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>>>>
>>>> I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
>>>> corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
>>>> quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
>>>> profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
>>>> corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
>>>> make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
>>>> know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
>>>> choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.
>>>>
>>>> And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
>>>> manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
>>>> cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
>>>> own store brand and get it from China ourselves.
>>> It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
>>> their job.
>>>
>> Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight
>> are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend
>> income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that
>> for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal
>> compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term.
>
>Whether management for short term stock price targets is a crime is
>surely debatable at best. Whether it is or isn't a wise management
>practice is a different question, of course. The problem tends to
>revolve around Boards of Directors who take too passive of a role in
>oversight imo, and I won't disagree about compensation plans that tend
>to reward poor behavior.
>
>But, overall, the problems are deeper-rooted and ultimately for retail
>most noticeably, driven by the competitive markets.


IF we have a point of contention it has to do with the "chicken and
the egg"

You seem to think this is consumer driven. My point is that
consumers, particularly those that might follow a forum like this,
many high end hobbiests or professional woodworkers, are not storming
the board rooms screaming that they want to save five or ten percent
on products that will make the corporation much more than that and
that they are willing to take poor quality for that savings.

It is the corporations that drive the reduction in quality, put it out
there for you to buy, and make finding a high quality alternative
difficult by, in collaboration with the large retailers, snapping up
all the shelf space. At least that is my opinion.

The "Corporate Greed" comes to bear when they are already profitable,
have a loyal customer base that depends on the quality of the product
that they supply, but feel they can squeese out a little more by
taking it to a quality risky offshore source. They are not doing this
to "survive".

Frank

Puckdropper <[email protected]> wrote:

...

> With the cost of screw guns (and drills) it's worth buying a second
> one to dedicate to drilling. It's much easier to switch between
> drills than it is to switch between bits.

Yup, got a Panasonic 12 V drill and impact driver during that
outrageous deal on Amazon last month.

The impact driver is noisy as expected, and it's a little unusual to
use, but it drove ordinary slotted screws without stripping or
slipping off of the head.

> (You can even use a drill bit to countersink a screw head, but it's
> not always easy to do accurately.)

With me, it's better than nothing, but tedious and inconsistent.

Enjoyed your writing about countersinks, thanks.







> Puckdropper

"Frank Boettcher" wrote
>
> And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
> manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
> cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
> own store brand and get it from China ourselves.
>
>

Home Depot goes one step further. They will take perfectly good products
that can be purchased in the United States and get cheap knock offs made for
a substantially lower price. This in turn is sold in their stores at the
original price.

We get screwed five ways.

1) We get cheap crap sold to us. (The quality gets lower and lower all the
time.)

2) We often have to pay the same price as the higher quality product for the
cheap knock off.

3) More jobs are lost overseas to the junk makers.

4) We are having many choices systematically removed from the marketplace.
This in turn reduces employment in this country as well as flooding us with
crap.

5) Our houses. projects and lives are negatively impacted because of all the
crap products we must use. This is because quality products are driven from
the retail markets.

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>Swingman wrote:
>...
>
>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>
>I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>choosing price over quality in the most part...


I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.

And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
own store brand and get it from China ourselves.


Frank

Apparently you have to make sure that the parts are in stock by
calling or whatever. Anyway, the screws shipped today.

"Dave in Houston" wrote in message

> We've been twisting these screws for the last ten years or so:
> http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/R4_1_2_information.htm and I can count on
one
> hand the number of heads that have twisted off. And, they're not Chinese
> although they are Canadian. Here in Houston, Circle Saw is the only
source
> I've ever been able to locate though, ironically, I find them at South
Texas
> rural Do-It-Best hardware centers and, for about the same price which is
> usually around $6.00/lb.

Yep ... those are good fasteners. Bill at CS turned me on to them a few
years ago, but I hardly every get by there, unless it's to get something
repaired.

I do better getting to Mid-America than I do CS, even though it is inside
the loop (barely) so I don't even need to get my passport stamped.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:24:27 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:14:47 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>>> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
>>> choosing price over quality in the most part...
>>
>>
>> I would respectfully disagree. In many, I would say most, cases
>> corporate greed is the driver to decisions that will reduce the
>> quality of the product when in fact there is perfectly good demand and
>> profit in the higher quality product. It is not the goal of the
>> corporation to reduce the quality, simply the outcome. The goal is to
>> make ten more points of profit margin because, you the consumer, don't
>> know any better anyway. In many cases, the consumer does not get a
>> choice or the higher end choice becomes harder and harder to find.
>>
>> And the big retailers are partners in this effort. They tell the
>> manufacturer's brand managers, hey you get it from China at a dirt
>> cheap price or you will lose your shelf space, and we'll develop our
>> own store brand and get it from China ourselves.
>
>It's true corporations are motivated to improve profit margins -- that's
>their job.
>
Their job is to do the will of the owners. If the owners by weight
are investors who are mostly interested in reasonable growth, dividend
income, and long term continuity, then what they do by risking that
for quick profits is a legal crime. It is done because their personal
compensation is based stock appreciation in the short term.

As one who lived through the transition of a company from a
profitable, highly respected entity with products that were
considered benchmark in their industry to one that put all that at
risk in a mad dash to China, I can speak from experience.

Did they do the will of the owners? The stock, at the end of this
period, lost 50% of its value as a result of this strategy and the
company had to be sold at a significant discount.

Did the decision makers suffer from those decisions. Nope, they made
their money before the stock dropped by collecting grants, bonuses,
and exercising options that appreciated prior to the investing
community figuring out where it was going. All but one are gone, but
all left wealthy.

Frank




>Unfortunately, the success of the mass retailers isn't owing to their
>profit margin, it's that the customer has gone there and selected price
>as their dominant factor in choice.
>
>Small numbers of consumers (relatively, and I consider myself one of
>them and can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of time I have
>been in the Super-Center in the last year) will select on the basis of
>other reasons but, for the most part, there simply aren't enough of them
>(high-end consumers) to support them (merchandisers).
>
>Consider how often do you go to the Borg for a common item because it is
>10 cents cheaper than the "real" lumber yard? Yet expect the yard to
>have all the "good stuff" that the Borg doesn't carry? Just can't work
>that way. (And that's not meant to be specifically "you personally",
>but as an "editorial you" because you can certainly recognize the trait
>as being widespread).

GROVER <[email protected]> wrote:

...

> Since this thread is wandering a bit off the OP's topic

This is where Ignore Subthread really shines, especially if the
particular branch has gone completely off topic and you're the
original poster looking for enlightenment.

I guess some people can remember without opening the next post in a
particular thread branch, but not me.

Thanks, and have fun.











> I will add one more story. A good many years ago I started a small
> cabinet making business after a career as an engineer. I bought the
> new tools I needed from a small shop who carried professional
> quality tools, supplies and provided sharpening services. He
> eventually focused solely on sharpening and told me that the BORG
> was selling tools for less than he had to pay at wholesale. Joe G

"dpb" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
> > It's pretty simple in this age of corporate greed ...
>
> I submit "corporate greed" is simply a reflection of the consumer
> choosing price over quality in the most part...

You're right. Allow me to rephrase that ... "It's pretty simple in the age
of the dumb ass and corporate greed ... "

Better?

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www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)