Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 6:46pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Ken) gives us:
Can I put a couple of coats of a oil based poly over a water based poly?
If so what would be the preperation? This is on solid maple and maple
ply.
It makes a difference what wood?
I read the label on my can. It says you can even put it over
latex, so I would think water-based too. The label even has a 1-800
number, so you can call and ask the manufacturer questions.
JOAT
Of course I don't think you're a complete idiot. Some parts are
missing.
Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 13 Nov 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
On 15 Nov 2003 21:32:27 -0800, [email protected] (Phil Crow) brought
forth from the murky depths:
>Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> On 15 Nov 2003 13:13:59 -0800, [email protected] (Phil Crow) brought
>> forth from the murky depths:
>>
>> >I *like* polyurethane. Call me crazy if you must, but I don't see
>>
>> Poor Phil. Your taste is all in your mouth. ;)
>You know, Larry, I just love it when your goat gets got!
<bleat>
>In all actuality, my experience with shellac is rather limited. I am,
Agreed. Are you confusing me with a certain ex-bugsh*t monger?
I've touted oil finishes, including Watco and Waterlox, for more
than awhile now, but varnishes (non-urinestain) have always been
my favorite buildable finish.
>however, going to use bug s*it on my maw-in-law's Christmas present
>(which I am Neandering, by the way) and very much look forward to the
>result. I already have some of the pieces cut and thicknessed, and
>I'll be sure to beg, borrow or steal a digital camera for my first
>honest-to-goodness shellac-finished project.
Waterlox'll save you some hassle if you're interested.
(Hush, Paddy.)
>BTW, I love the Zencrafters t-shirts.
So buy 5 and get free shipping! Merry Xmas. I have just 3 left
in XXL but tons in XL and L.
----------------------------------------------------------------
* OPERA: A Latin word * Wondrous Website Design
* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:21:06 GMT, Tom Watson
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>My go-to finish in this situation would normally be a CAB acrylic
>lacquer. It has good moisture, abrasion and denting properties, but a
>little testing showed that this was prolly the finish that was already
>on there and it had failed to hold up under the onslaught of four
>young children.
And how many YEARS? Why do people think finishing is a
once in a furniture's lifetime deal?!?
>I'm not a big poly guy. I mostly spray nitro lacquer. But, if I got
>such a job again, I'd put that poly on in a heartbeat.
Perhaps you should start wearing masks in the paint shop, Tawm.
(But at least you spray it. Brushed poly is usually THICK.)
-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:35:17 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky
depths:
>On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:08:27 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
>wrote:
>>Tell me about protection, Mike. Precisely -what- are people
>>doing which -requires- their lovely wood to be wrapped in
>>
>> s a r a n ?
>
>Commercial work? Yacht and aircraft interiors? Any type of high-end
>cabinetry or furniture that needs a good finish?
>
>I can see the martini bar manager now, "use a coaster!!!!". <G>
>
>Larry, why does "varnish" mean wrapped in saran? I've seen plenty of
Poly usually equals saran. Nice and thick to "protect" said piece.
<gag, hack, kaff>
>high-end furniture and built-ins, finished in varnishes, with and
>without urethanes, that look freakin' gorgeous. Some of this stuff is
>even on display in prestigious museums, such as NYC's Metropolitan
>Museum of Art, or the Yale Art Gallery. I've also seen beautiful,
>_varnished_ woodwork in churches and multi-million dollar homes.
I -love- varnish. You misread my statements. It's poly I hate
because it is so often abusively applied.
-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:52:58 -0500, "Mike G"
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>There is continued use of varnish as a finish because there are times when
>that level of protection is absolutely necessary and, while the application
>can be problematic, when properly applied varnish can look as good as any
>other finish and it is still the most protective of the commonly available
>finishes.
Tell me about protection, Mike. Precisely -what- are people
doing which -requires- their lovely wood to be wrapped in
s a r a n ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk
Once it has cured poly is poly whether it was oil or water based. Yes, you
can put poly over poly.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Ken" <kensn@com(delete)cast.net> wrote in message
news:Xp9tb.197594$HS4.1677414@attbi_s01...
> Can I put a couple of coats of a oil based poly over a water based poly?
If
> so what would be the preperation? This is on solid maple and maple ply.
>
> Thanks
>
> ken
>
>
It is called witness lines and it is true of any finish that doesn't burn
into the previous coats IE shellac and lacquer. This means that witness
lines can be a problem with any varnish or catalyzed finish. Witness lines
occur when a cured varnish finish is improperly prepared for additional
coats. Because each coat forms unique layers and if one sands through one
coat somewhere on the surface the boundary between coats causes the witness
lines.
A light scuff sanding is all that is necessary to provide some tooth for a
new coat of varnish to form a good mechanical bond with a previously cured
varnish finish. This is why sanding between coats when putting the first
varnish finish is called for. To provide tooth for the following coats which
stick just fine.
There is no problem with coating a varnish finish with another varnish
finish there is only problems with the techniques used in doing it. If one
takes the time to understands what and why a problem occurs it can usually
be avoided.
There is continued use of varnish as a finish because there are times when
that level of protection is absolutely necessary and, while the application
can be problematic, when properly applied varnish can look as good as any
other finish and it is still the most protective of the commonly available
finishes.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0500, "Mike G"
> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >Once it has cured poly is poly whether it was oil or water based. Yes,
you
> >can put poly over poly.
>
> There are two problems with that. First, sanding the
> original coats leaves layer ridges which show through
> like circles on a bullseye target or a topo map.
> Just lovely!
>
> Second, fresh poly doesn't stick to cured poly nearly
> as well as it should. I know these things from people
> constantly complaining about them here on the wreck,
> from watching friends and neighbors use the stuff,
> and from reading the articles written about it. I
> don't use the crap myself. (Though I did for a short
> while decades ago, before I knew better.)
>
> Why does anyone continue to use this stuff? MARKETING!
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Heart Attacks: God's revenge for eating his little animal friends
> -- http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development --
Phil Crow wrote:
> price and 1/5 the labor of shellac. I mean, ten bucks for a sliver of
> this stuff ya gotta steep in the alcohol, then apply 40 or 50 coats,
> THEN wax it? I'm not disputing that shellac looks nice. My money's
40 or 50 coats? wax required? What are you smoking?
Have you ever _used_ shellac? I have...and never felt the need to
do any of these things. 3 coats is the most I have done...gets a
nice gloss. A few swipes with steel wool for a satin finish.
And NO SANDING between coats! It's _much_ faster to apply.
I have used both in the past...and will use both in the future - every
finish has its advantages and disadvantages.
> better spent on longevity, though. Would you shellac your floor? If
> so, how long would you expect it to last?
Actually, yes. It was the preferred finish for wood floors for many
years. There are different ways to measure longevity. Because
shellac bonds with existing coats, a simple cleaning is all that is
required prior to adding a new coat. Since shellac does not wear
nearly as well as poly, a new coat should be added every year or two.
I think my father said that his parents added a new coat to their
floors every year.
- OTOH -
While poly may last longer between coats - the 'refinishing' process
is FAR more work. You must sand before adding another coat - and this
usually means sanding completely through to the wood. As a result,
your floor gets thinner each time. You can refinish a floor in this
manner a finite number of times before you run out of wood. This will
not be a problem with shellac. And shellac dries in minutes, not hours.
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
Hi Phil
I don't use a lot of varnish in my work. I try to make a match/compromise
between the protection something needs and the particular "look" I or the
person receiving the work wants.
Varnish is a fine finish and I'm not going to dispute that and see no reason
why you should have to defend your use of it.
But, at the same time I hope you are not looking at those of us who avoid
varnish and only use it if absolutely necessary as shellackeys snobs. It
puts you at the same level as Jaques.
I can't speak for others but I avoid it's use because about eighty percent
of the time a piece doesn't need all that protection and, since any building
finish, when first applied, does have a superficial surface gloss, varnish
more so then most, I am compelled to rub out the finish to get the
appearance of depth that I feel is lacking.
Frankly, because varnish is as protective as it is, for that eighty five
percent of the time the protection is not needed, rubbing it out is just
plain to much work for too little a return.
What I am trying to say is please don't become a reverse finishing snob. All
finishes have their place and it doesn't take 40 or 50 coats of shellac to
give you a very nice finish. Experiment, expand on your finishing tools,
and, by all means, try rubbing out a finish and see what it can do for you
work.
Good luck
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Phil Crow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I *like* polyurethane. Call me crazy if you must, but I don't see
> anything wrong with a bulletproof clear finish that's about 1/3 the
> price and 1/5 the labor of shellac. I mean, ten bucks for a sliver of
> this stuff ya gotta steep in the alcohol, then apply 40 or 50 coats,
> THEN wax it? I'm not disputing that shellac looks nice. My money's
> better spent on longevity, though. Would you shellac your floor? If
> so, how long would you expect it to last?
>
> Take *that*, all you shellackeys! <g>
>
> -Phil Crow
>
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:08:27 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
>Tell me about protection, Mike. Precisely -what- are people
>doing which -requires- their lovely wood to be wrapped in
>
> s a r a n ?
I don't do a lot of refinishing, but when a good customer asks me to
do a small thing for them, once in a while, I go along with them.
Had a customer with an oak kitchen table that had a pretty hammered
top.
My go-to finish in this situation would normally be a CAB acrylic
lacquer. It has good moisture, abrasion and denting properties, but a
little testing showed that this was prolly the finish that was already
on there and it had failed to hold up under the onslaught of four
young children.
So, I sanded her down and put on a few coats of water-based poly.
After three years the table top still looks like it did the day I
finished it.
I'm not a big poly guy. I mostly spray nitro lacquer. But, if I got
such a job again, I'd put that poly on in a heartbeat.
Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
I *like* polyurethane. Call me crazy if you must, but I don't see
anything wrong with a bulletproof clear finish that's about 1/3 the
price and 1/5 the labor of shellac. I mean, ten bucks for a sliver of
this stuff ya gotta steep in the alcohol, then apply 40 or 50 coats,
THEN wax it? I'm not disputing that shellac looks nice. My money's
better spent on longevity, though. Would you shellac your floor? If
so, how long would you expect it to last?
Take *that*, all you shellackeys! <g>
-Phil Crow
Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0500, "Mike G"
> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >Once it has cured poly is poly whether it was oil or water based. Yes, you
> >can put poly over poly.
>
> There are two problems with that. First, sanding the
> original coats leaves layer ridges which show through
> like circles on a bullseye target or a topo map.
> Just lovely!
>
> Second, fresh poly doesn't stick to cured poly nearly
> as well as it should. I know these things from people
> constantly complaining about them here on the wreck,
> from watching friends and neighbors use the stuff,
> and from reading the articles written about it. I
> don't use the crap myself. (Though I did for a short
> while decades ago, before I knew better.)
>
> Why does anyone continue to use this stuff? MARKETING!
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Heart Attacks: God's revenge for eating his little animal friends
> -- http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development --
Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 15 Nov 2003 13:13:59 -0800, [email protected] (Phil Crow) brought
> forth from the murky depths:
>
> >I *like* polyurethane. Call me crazy if you must, but I don't see
>
> Poor Phil. Your taste is all in your mouth. ;)
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> I'll apologize for offending someone...right
> after they apologize for being easily offended.
> -----------------------------------------------
> http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design
You know, Larry, I just love it when your goat gets got!
In all actuality, my experience with shellac is rather limited. I am,
however, going to use bug s*it on my maw-in-law's Christmas present
(which I am Neandering, by the way) and very much look forward to the
result. I already have some of the pieces cut and thicknessed, and
I'll be sure to beg, borrow or steal a digital camera for my first
honest-to-goodness shellac-finished project.
BTW, I love the Zencrafters t-shirts.
-Phil Crow
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0500, "Mike G"
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>Once it has cured poly is poly whether it was oil or water based. Yes, you
>can put poly over poly.
There are two problems with that. First, sanding the
original coats leaves layer ridges which show through
like circles on a bullseye target or a topo map.
Just lovely!
Second, fresh poly doesn't stick to cured poly nearly
as well as it should. I know these things from people
constantly complaining about them here on the wreck,
from watching friends and neighbors use the stuff,
and from reading the articles written about it. I
don't use the crap myself. (Though I did for a short
while decades ago, before I knew better.)
Why does anyone continue to use this stuff? MARKETING!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Heart Attacks: God's revenge for eating his little animal friends
-- http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development --
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:57:40 -0500, "Mike G"
<[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>But, at the same time I hope you are not looking at those of us who avoid
>varnish and only use it if absolutely necessary as shellackeys snobs. It
>puts you at the same level as Jaques.
I don't avoid varnish, just _poly_. RTFMessage, Mikey.
Your other response to me wasn't worth answering, especially
since you didn't even answer my question to defend your own
statement.
Over and out.
----------------------------------------------------------------
* OPERA: A Latin word * Wondrous Website Design
* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
On 15 Nov 2003 13:13:59 -0800, [email protected] (Phil Crow) brought
forth from the murky depths:
>I *like* polyurethane. Call me crazy if you must, but I don't see
Poor Phil. Your taste is all in your mouth. ;)
-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design
After perusing your replies to others regarding the use of varnish as a
finish it's obvious you are not only happy in your ignorance about the value
of varnish as a finish and how nice it can look when worked properly but you
also will continue insist on trying to make that ignorance so me sort of
fact.
In that case I'll just let it go. There is little point in talking to a
fool.
It is unfortunate that some newbie out there may take you ignorance for
actual knowledge but a lot of people tried.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:52:58 -0500, "Mike G"
> <[email protected]> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >There is continued use of varnish as a finish because there are times
when
> >that level of protection is absolutely necessary and, while the
application
> >can be problematic, when properly applied varnish can look as good as any
> >other finish and it is still the most protective of the commonly
available
> >finishes.
>
> Tell me about protection, Mike. Precisely -what- are people
> doing which -requires- their lovely wood to be wrapped in
>
> s a r a n ?
>
>
>
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
> ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
> http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:08:27 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
>Tell me about protection, Mike. Precisely -what- are people
>doing which -requires- their lovely wood to be wrapped in
>
> s a r a n ?
Commercial work? Yacht and aircraft interiors? Any type of high-end
cabinetry or furniture that needs a good finish?
I can see the martini bar manager now, "use a coaster!!!!". <G>
Larry, why does "varnish" mean wrapped in saran? I've seen plenty of
high-end furniture and built-ins, finished in varnishes, with and
without urethanes, that look freakin' gorgeous. Some of this stuff is
even on display in prestigious museums, such as NYC's Metropolitan
Museum of Art, or the Yale Art Gallery. I've also seen beautiful,
_varnished_ woodwork in churches and multi-million dollar homes.
Broaden thyself, brother. Spend time with some pros.
Or is it that your work is too good for "The Met"?
Barry
Chris Merrill wrote:
> Have you ever _used_ shellac? I have...and never felt the need to
> do any of these things. 3 coats is the most I have done...gets a
> nice gloss. A few swipes with steel wool for a satin finish.
> And NO SANDING between coats! It's _much_ faster to apply.
*Too* much gloss, and I like things to be glassy looking. The way it clings
to every single riple and burble of the grain combined with its extremely
high gloss really makes things look surreal and downright weird until I
knock some of that off with 0000 steel wool, and, yes, wax. I like to wax
my stuff, but it isn't *necessary*. I used to wax poly too.
I avoided shellac for *years*. I finally tried a can of that ready-made
bullseye stuff, and that's my new finish until I get around to trying
something more adventuresome. It's a lot more idiot proof than poly, dries
10,000% faster, and doesn't turn stuff yellow. The only thing I don't like
about it is that it's *extremely* unforgiving when it comes to the job you
have to do getting the wood ready. It puts the surface under a magnifying
glass, and it had better be *smooth* when you start.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/