Modular vs Built in place kitchen cabinets

On Tue, 18 May 2010 05:30:54 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote the following:

>On 5/18/2010 4:11 AM, Mac Cool wrote:
>> Nonny:
>>
>>> The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
>>> was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
>>> would have been made in local shops.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks to everyone for the advice but I won't be buying premade cabinets
>> and have already started building my own. The only bummer is that my shop
>> is too small for full sheets of plywood so I have to pare them down with a
>> circular saw. Maybe my first project should have been a panel saw.
>
>Have you made yourself one of these
><http://www.benchnotes.com/Skillsaw%20Guide/skillsaw_cutting_guide_boa.htm>?
> If not you might want to.

I might just build one of those, too. I'm using an aluminum sectional
straightedge now, like http://fwd4.me/On6 , and it requires an offset
to be scribed in each time. A "drop 'n go" guide would be quicker,
easier, and give better edge support to reduce splintering.


>Note that that's just one version--googling "circular saw guide plans"
>will get you a number of other variations on the same theme.
>
>Also, instead of the clamps shown, a couple of Irwin Quick-Grip Minis
>work a treat for holding the thing in place while cutting.

"Works a treat" has been going around lately. Where's it from?
Is i' a new Pomicism, mate?

--
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter
the state of facts and evidence. -- John Adams, December 1770
'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials'

On May 14, 7:47=A0am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mac Cool wrote:
> > Planning my kitchen rebuild and at the last minute I'm reconsidering
> > if building modular cabinets is really the way to go or if I should
> > just build them in place. I've built stand alone cabinets before and
> > I'm familiar with the process but it looks like built in place
> > cabinetry would use a good deal less sheet material and who doesn't
> > like to save money. But I'm not familiar with building cabinets in
> > place so it would be something new to learn. What do you guys think?
>
> I've done both. =A0In fact, I am nearly finished with a built in place ca=
binet
> on my screen porch.
>
> I can't see that you would save much in sheet goods. =A0OK, you can skip =
a
> back but you can do that with modular ones. =A0You also wouldn't need ins=
ide
> ends; that too could be skipped in modular ones but you'd have to have op=
en
> frames to attach one to another. =A0Built in place ones should have them =
too
> for strength if the cabinet is of any size.
>
> Built in place means the horizontal pieces are going to be a PITA to fit
> because if there is a side as well a back wall because of the corner tapi=
ng.
>
> As you can see, I think modular is easier. =A0I *do* build an in place pl=
inth
> to set them on so I can avoid making toe kicks on the cabinets.
>

Oh yea... do the plinth routine. MUCH easier and faster. Just level
the 'platform' and the rest falls into place.

On May 14, 2:03=A0am, Mac Cool <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy:
>
> > Buy an upper end set of cabinets at IKEA. No, I am not kidding. That
> > stuff is totally credible. Use their on-line planner and be done with
> > it, then blow the rest of your budget on a quartz countertop. Biggest
> > bang for the buck...IMHO.
>
> Ikea has a poor reputation. Unfortunately the closest Ikea store is 150
> miles away, a bit too far to go see if we like their cabinets. Looking at
> their website I only see one style of cabinet, Akurum.

IKEA has come a long way. Their famous schlock is harder to find, and
better products from them have been on the market for at least a
decade. But it is hard to shed a poor reputation.
The kitchens I have seen from them are as good as most mass-produced
cabinets out there. The doors, drawer fronts and end panels are
finished expertly with very durable finishes. The range of colours is
pretty good too.

Their kitchen sinks are 20 ga and you might as well make them yourself
from a roll of tin foil. Crap.

When I started in the trades in the early 70s, built in cabinets were
the rage. We built library walls, nooks, built in hutches and display
cabinets. From time to time depending on who I was working wtih at
the time, we also built kitchen and bath cabs as well in place.

Later I was assigned to another cabinet guy that used to run a cabinet
shop. We built everything in modules. They were easier to build,
easier to install, and easier to finish.

I haven't built anything in place since unless there was no other
choice.

I like Rob's idea of buying finished cabinets. For most folks, even
if they can build them they ruin their work with poor finishing.

Ahhhh... and finishing in place. If you do it correctly you will be
disassembling all of your work anyway, so why not build it and finish
it in pieces? Finishing one modular drawer bank at a time is much
easier than the entire side of a base section that is in place.

Think of managing your spray, the fumes, the drift, etc., that will go
through your house and A/C system. (Of course, I am assuming you
wouldn't brush a kitchen full of cabinets, including doors, drawers,
interiors, etc.)

Prefinished cabs handle all that or you. If you don't like IKEA or
others, try to find a local cabinet distributor of finished cabinets
and see what they have. There is actually a lot of nice stuff out
there these days.

Robert

On 5/13/2010 7:55 PM, Mac Cool wrote:

> Planning my kitchen rebuild and at the last minute I'm reconsidering if
> building modular cabinets is really the way to go or if I should just
> build them in place. I've built stand alone cabinets before and I'm
> familiar with the process but it looks like built in place cabinetry would
> use a good deal less sheet material and who doesn't like to save money.
> But I'm not familiar with building cabinets in place so it would be
> something new to learn. What do you guys think?

A set of well built shop made "modular" kitchen cabinets will generally
outlast the house. I've yet to see a set of "built-in" kitchen cabinets,
ten years later, that has stood the test of time with regard to things
like doors and drawers still fitting like new.

That's not to say that built-in's can't be every bit as long lasting as
shop built, but, IME, it is relatively rare to see it these days, mostly
due to lost skills in the workforce.

BTW, should you be looking some design and planning tools for your
cabinet project, you may find something useful in my "Kitchen Cabinet
Components and Models" link below, particularly with the dynamic wall
and base cabinets which can be re-sized to fit available space:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/cldetails?mid=c0f1c8d44f47cba8b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 14, 2:40=A0pm, Mac Cool <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy:
>
> > Oh yea... do the plinth routine. MUCH easier and faster. Just level
> > the 'platform' and the rest falls into place.
>
> By plinth you are referring to the adjustable feet, correct?

A plinth is a platform, the height of a kick 4". Made as a frame, it
can be scribed and shimmed so that it is level. Then the cabinets sit
on top and overhang in the front by about 3.5". Here's 2000 words:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Bottomdetailback.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/Floatingkick2.jpg

On May 13, 8:55=A0pm, Mac Cool <[email protected]> wrote:
> Planning my kitchen rebuild and at the last minute I'm reconsidering if
> building modular cabinets is really the way to go or if I should just
> build them in place. I've built stand alone cabinets before and I'm
> familiar with the process but it looks like built in place cabinetry woul=
d
> use a good deal less sheet material and who doesn't like to save money.
> But I'm not familiar with building cabinets in place so it would be
> something new to learn. What do you guys think?

Buy an upper end set of cabinets at IKEA. No, I am not kidding. That
stuff is totally credible. Use their on-line planner and be done with
it, then blow the rest of your budget on a quartz countertop. Biggest
bang for the buck...IMHO.
Then, use the time you save, building a nice armoire or hutch to feed
that woodworker beast inside of you.

On May 14, 6:33 am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> Having said all this, it all comes down to the installation. A
> mediocre set of cabinets installed properly is a better deal than high-
> end materials banged together and finished poorly.

You said a mouthful there. I painted out the most inexpensive solid
wood line that HD sold a few years ago (I don't think they sell the
line anymore - they were unfinished white oak) for a contractor friend
of mine and they looked like a million bucks. They were very well
made cabinets (surprise!), and were installed, trimmed, and adjusted
by his ace.

On the other hand, I have seen way too many cabinet replacements where
the modules were just ruined. Misplaced screws and nails, no attempt
to level the cabinets on the floor, not a wedge to be seen on the
backs of the uppers, trim in the wrong position, etc.

Unless I just need one or two I never build them anymore. My favorite
cab guy does it too cheap, and he's good, too. But he doesn't
install. I have gotten a lot of work form him troubleshooting poor
installations and in some cases rehanging his products.

He won't install anything any more. He can't find guys that meet his
standards and he told me it was too hard on him to see his nice
cabinets hung poorly.

BTW, a couple of years ago I put in a whole kitchen of Kraftmaid
cabinets. I was surprised at their quality, and the trims matched the
cabinets exactly. They were well made throughout, the hardware was
nice, and were finished inside and out. When I go them hung, I
touched up the visible hanging brad holes in the moldings and was
finished.
They looked really nice, and as you said, they spent the money on some
green granite. With the reddish colored cabinets they had, it
reminded me of Christmas, but it still looked great. More like a
library than a kitchen when the lights were dimmed.

Cost savings of not using me and my buddy as a tag team of custom
cabinets and custom finishing: +/- $2500.

They were happy to apply it to their $6K granite bill.

Robert

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8016b5db-f38c-44a9-a61e-c77e330f74c2@r34g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

>
> BTW, a couple of years ago I put in a whole kitchen of Kraftmaid
> cabinets. I was surprised at their quality, and the trims
> matched the
> cabinets exactly. They were well made throughout, the hardware
> was
> nice, and were finished inside and out. When I go them hung, I
> touched up the visible hanging brad holes in the moldings and
> was
> finished.
> They looked really nice, and as you said, they spent the money
> on some
> green granite. With the reddish colored cabinets they had, it
> reminded me of Christmas, but it still looked great. More like
> a
> library than a kitchen when the lights were dimmed.
>
> Cost savings of not using me and my buddy as a tag team of
> custom
> cabinets and custom finishing: +/- $2500.
>
> They were happy to apply it to their $6K granite bill.

We owned a second house a few years back. It was a mountain cabin
that had been designed and supervised by an architect for a
client. I was surprised to find that the cabinets in the kitchen,
baths, laundry room and pantry were all Kraftmade box cabinets.
It was almost impossible to tell except for a couple places where
there were filler boards. The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
would have been made in local shops.

Interestingly, we are in the process of trying to purchase a
1-story home here (health issues) and the cabinets in it are also
Kraftmade. I had the opportunity to talk to a custom home builder
and he told me that if he had to make a guess, that box cabinets
could be found in virtually all of even the most expensive homes,
with only library shelving and custom units like entertainment
centers or media room built-ins etc. coming from custom shops
anymore.

--
Nonny
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 5/15/2010 4:27 PM, Nonny wrote:
>
> <snip of good stuff>
>
>> The best cabinets, IMHO, are still the ones
>> where a cabinet maker comes to the house, measures and returns
>> with
>> cabinets he's made and finished in the controlled conditions of
>> his
>> shop. The best installs I've seen are almost always where the
>> cabinet
>> maker himself does the installation of his cabinets.
>
> Indeed! The absolute best of all possible worlds! <BSEG>
>
>> I don't know where you are from, but here in Las Vegas, the big
>> thing is
>> granite for kitchens and marble for baths in the upscale homes,
>> and
>> granite for kitchens and ceramic tile on bath counter tops for
>> the
>> middle grade ones. Occasionally, if money is tight, a buyer
>> will have
>> the default tops of 4X4 ceramic installed, and have plans to
>> remove it
>> eventually and replace it with granite. Corian, Silestone and
>> similar
>> synthetics are almost nonexistent here and laminate tops are
>> equally
>> scarce for some reason.
>
> Pretty much the same here.
>
>> While off the subject of cabinets, flooring here is subtly
>> different
>> than it was in NC, IN or other places I've lived. Here, carpet
>> is used
>> in low traffic areas and where sound control is needed like a
>> bedroom,
>> but the general living area of a middle-upscale house is
>> typically
>> ceramic or clay tile, laid with a 3/8" grout line, or
>> Travertine laid
>> with a 0 grout line. Where I grew up, you might have a small
>> tile area
>> by the front door or garage entrance, but then wall to wall
>> carpet
>> elsewhere. I'm not sure if that's a sign of the times or what.
>
> Here, mostly hardwood's throughout, with slate, or some other
> natural stone, in the master baths, with same or travertine in
> the guest and other baths. Lots of natural stone outside ...
> porches, breezeways, sidewalks, etc. Rarely see concrete
> flatwork in these areas. Rarely see carpet anywhere in the main
> house, but quite common in MIL/maid quarters.
>
> With the exception of bathrooms and closets, which are the all
> 'full monte' cabinet ammenities you can generally cram in, I
> tend to leave about 70% of the built-ins (entertainment centers,
> books cases, etc.) left to the imagination of the buyer on a
> spec house, that way we can build/trim out exactly what they
> want ... lately I'm surprised at the number of folks wanting
> full bookcases again ... for years they were out of favor. Same
> goes with wainscoting on dining room and den walls. Some folks
> love it, others hate it.
>
> Then again, there is always someone who will love the house, no
> matter what its got in it, where it is (on the railroad tracks),
> and in spite of all the agonizing over color schemes, and what
> "features" will or won't sell, in the design stage. :)

Speaking of bookcases, something I always wanted in a home was a
loft library. Ideally, a rectangular great room would have 18' to
the lower part of a cathedral ceiling, with a 4-sided open loft
about 9' up, scabbed onto the wall, with a width of about 5' on
two sides, 6' on a third and 10' or so on the outside wall end of
the great room. On the inside opposite end would be a spiral
staircase between the loft and great room; the loft would have 4
turned wood columns to support the interior opening and railing
all around. The loft on the exterior end of the great room would
have the second of a double fireplace, matching the one below in
the great room. All walls would have book shelves, while the end
loft would have couches and chairs/TV etc.

Outside of the woodwork, I don't think it'd cost as much to build
as the rest of the home. Framing would be pretty standard, with
the exterior walls and 4 columns taking the load. The loft would
double as a stiffener for the great room walls, preventing bowing
from the roof load. If I was doing it for myself, I'd use
prefinished hardwood floors, with inlaid carpet runners.


--
Nonny
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 5/15/2010 1:53 PM, Nonny wrote:
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:8016b5db-f38c-44a9-a61e-c77e330f74c2@r34g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>
>>> BTW, a couple of years ago I put in a whole kitchen of
>>> Kraftmaid
>>> cabinets. I was surprised at their quality, and the trims
>>> matched the
>>> cabinets exactly. They were well made throughout, the hardware
>>> was
>>> nice, and were finished inside and out. When I go them hung, I
>>> touched up the visible hanging brad holes in the moldings and
>>> was
>>> finished.
>>> They looked really nice, and as you said, they spent the money
>>> on some
>>> green granite. With the reddish colored cabinets they had, it
>>> reminded me of Christmas, but it still looked great. More like
>>> a
>>> library than a kitchen when the lights were dimmed.
>>>
>>> Cost savings of not using me and my buddy as a tag team of
>>> custom
>>> cabinets and custom finishing: +/- $2500.
>>>
>>> They were happy to apply it to their $6K granite bill.
>>
>> We owned a second house a few years back. It was a mountain
>> cabin that
>> had been designed and supervised by an architect for a client.
>> I was
>> surprised to find that the cabinets in the kitchen, baths,
>> laundry room
>> and pantry were all Kraftmade box cabinets. It was almost
>> impossible to
>> tell except for a couple places where there were filler boards.
>> The
>> quality of the Kraftmade cabinets was very good and probably
>> better than
>> most custom cabinets that would have been made in local shops.
>>
>> Interestingly, we are in the process of trying to purchase a
>> 1-story
>> home here (health issues) and the cabinets in it are also
>> Kraftmade. I
>> had the opportunity to talk to a custom home builder and he
>> told me that
>> if he had to make a guess, that box cabinets could be found in
>> virtually
>> all of even the most expensive homes, with only library
>> shelving and
>> custom units like entertainment centers or media room built-ins
>> etc.
>> coming from custom shops anymore.
>
> Around here most of the high end custom home builders use site
> built cabinets, from kitchens to closets, because, bottom line,
> they are cheaper when factoring in labor, materials and
> installation costs.
>
> That's whats so sad about walking into one of these "high end"
> homes up for resale four or five years later and seeing the
> results of all that eye candy trim with gaps in it (none of the
> guys ever heard of coping and inside miter), warped doors that
> won't close all the way, and drawers that don't fit.
>
> Damn thig is that people either are incapable of seeing it, or
> refuse to see acknowledge it.
>
> <Strange meaning of "high end" in real estate agent speak these
> days, at least around here.>
>
> Not to be argumentative, but while Kraftmade are indeed some of
> the better, factory made boxes, I can spot them a block away.
>
> I've heard it remarked on many an occasion, that, after having
> now owned kitchen cabinets hand crafted with high quality
> materials, like the ones Leon and I put in houses, folks, who
> used to walk through HD and think how good the Kraftmade
> cabinets were, now think they look "cheap" ... and that's a
> quote. And I agree ... after building/seeing/using/owning hand
> crafted cabinet boxes and components, Kraftmade simply no longer
> looks like "quality" goods.
>
> I also agree that for most, if the choice is between built-in
> kitchen cabinets, or 'factory made' cabinet boxes and components
> like Kraftmade makes, Kraftmade is one of the better ways to go
> these days ... then again, ask me how many millions of dollars
> worth of houses just our kitchen cabinets alone have sold, some
> more than once. :)
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

I agree with your comments. When I started working for my Dad,
back in the 1950's, cabinets came from 3 sources: 1) from a local
cabinet shop, 2) from the lumber yard in a box or 3) were built
on-site by the trim carpenters. The high end homes were always
from the local cabinet shop. The typical homes were built on-site
and the homes just slightly better than trailers were built using
lumber yard box cabinets.

Naturally, that's changed over the years with shifts in wages,
availability and even customer expectations.

I now live in Las Vegas, where most homes in most subdivisions are
built by national contractors based on 4-6 floor plans per
neighborhood. The homes may be built on spec, but if a customer
buys during construction, they can pick colors etc. I'd say that
99.9% of all these houses are built using cabinets built somewhere
else and shipped to the wholesaler in boxes. The choices are
usually either white Melamine or wood/vinyl veneer over particle
board/plywood in some wood color. This is common in even homes
costing $300k to $500k or more. "Wood" cabinetry is a term the RE
agents use here to mark the difference between Melamine and
stained Birch or Oak veneer cabinets. I don't ever recall any
agent even commenting whether cabinets were custom made and not
from a box.

In the more expensive homes, the cabinets are still from a box,
but "quality," means that the rails and styles of doors, along
with face framing, is from solids and not particle board with a
wood veneer. You also find that the more upscale homes, while
still having box cabinets, have more fancy things like appliance
garages, swing-up appliance shelves in lower cabinets, lazy susans
in corner cabinets, pantry, microwave shelves and rolling pan
shelves.

I also absolutely, totally, agree with the sentiment of others
about cabinets that are custom built (job site) inside the home-
usually by trim carpenters, being junk. I don't think that I've
ever seen ones that last nearly as long as even inexpensive box
cabinets and they almost always have a crappy finish. The best
cabinets, IMHO, are still the ones where a cabinet maker comes to
the house, measures and returns with cabinets he's made and
finished in the controlled conditions of his shop. The best
installs I've seen are almost always where the cabinet maker
himself does the installation of his cabinets.

I don't know where you are from, but here in Las Vegas, the big
thing is granite for kitchens and marble for baths in the upscale
homes, and granite for kitchens and ceramic tile on bath counter
tops for the middle grade ones. Occasionally, if money is tight, a
buyer will have the default tops of 4X4 ceramic installed, and
have plans to remove it eventually and replace it with granite.
Corian, Silestone and similar synthetics are almost nonexistent
here and laminate tops are equally scarce for some reason.

While off the subject of cabinets, flooring here is subtly
different than it was in NC, IN or other places I've lived. Here,
carpet is used in low traffic areas and where sound control is
needed like a bedroom, but the general living area of a
middle-upscale house is typically ceramic or clay tile, laid with
a 3/8" grout line, or Travertine laid with a 0 grout line. Where I
grew up, you might have a small tile area by the front door or
garage entrance, but then wall to wall carpet elsewhere. I'm not
sure if that's a sign of the times or what.

--
Nonny
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

Robatoy:

> Buy an upper end set of cabinets at IKEA. No, I am not kidding. That
> stuff is totally credible. Use their on-line planner and be done with
> it, then blow the rest of your budget on a quartz countertop. Biggest
> bang for the buck...IMHO.

Ikea has a poor reputation. Unfortunately the closest Ikea store is 150
miles away, a bit too far to go see if we like their cabinets. Looking at
their website I only see one style of cabinet, Akurum.

Swingman:

> Component pieces of built-in cabinetry on that same set of walls are
> going to move with the walls, in differing amounts according to their
> location, to the detriment of ALL parts fitting together like they did
> before the inevitable movement/settling.

Okay, good argument, thanks. The cabinets I have now are built-ins that I
believe are original to the 1960 house and they are coming apart, I
believe due to house movement.

Robatoy:

> Oh yea... do the plinth routine. MUCH easier and faster. Just level
> the 'platform' and the rest falls into place.

By plinth you are referring to the adjustable feet, correct?

dadiOH:

> Built in place means the horizontal pieces are going to be a PITA to
> fit because if there is a side as well a back wall because of the
> corner taping.

Okay, thanks, good advice.

[email protected]:

> Ahhhh... and finishing in place.

Lots of good points, thanks.

Nonny:

> The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
> was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
> would have been made in local shops.
>

Thanks to everyone for the advice but I won't be buying premade cabinets
and have already started building my own. The only bummer is that my shop
is too small for full sheets of plywood so I have to pare them down with a
circular saw. Maybe my first project should have been a panel saw.

On 5/15/2010 1:53 PM, Nonny wrote:
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:8016b5db-f38c-44a9-a61e-c77e330f74c2@r34g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> BTW, a couple of years ago I put in a whole kitchen of Kraftmaid
>> cabinets. I was surprised at their quality, and the trims matched the
>> cabinets exactly. They were well made throughout, the hardware was
>> nice, and were finished inside and out. When I go them hung, I
>> touched up the visible hanging brad holes in the moldings and was
>> finished.
>> They looked really nice, and as you said, they spent the money on some
>> green granite. With the reddish colored cabinets they had, it
>> reminded me of Christmas, but it still looked great. More like a
>> library than a kitchen when the lights were dimmed.
>>
>> Cost savings of not using me and my buddy as a tag team of custom
>> cabinets and custom finishing: +/- $2500.
>>
>> They were happy to apply it to their $6K granite bill.
>
> We owned a second house a few years back. It was a mountain cabin that
> had been designed and supervised by an architect for a client. I was
> surprised to find that the cabinets in the kitchen, baths, laundry room
> and pantry were all Kraftmade box cabinets. It was almost impossible to
> tell except for a couple places where there were filler boards. The
> quality of the Kraftmade cabinets was very good and probably better than
> most custom cabinets that would have been made in local shops.
>
> Interestingly, we are in the process of trying to purchase a 1-story
> home here (health issues) and the cabinets in it are also Kraftmade. I
> had the opportunity to talk to a custom home builder and he told me that
> if he had to make a guess, that box cabinets could be found in virtually
> all of even the most expensive homes, with only library shelving and
> custom units like entertainment centers or media room built-ins etc.
> coming from custom shops anymore.

Around here most of the high end custom home builders use site built
cabinets, from kitchens to closets, because, bottom line, they are
cheaper when factoring in labor, materials and installation costs.

That's whats so sad about walking into one of these "high end" homes up
for resale four or five years later and seeing the results of all that
eye candy trim with gaps in it (none of the guys ever heard of coping
and inside miter), warped doors that won't close all the way, and
drawers that don't fit.

Damn thig is that people either are incapable of seeing it, or refuse to
see acknowledge it.

<Strange meaning of "high end" in real estate agent speak these days, at
least around here.>

Not to be argumentative, but while Kraftmade are indeed some of the
better, factory made boxes, I can spot them a block away.

I've heard it remarked on many an occasion, that, after having now owned
kitchen cabinets hand crafted with high quality materials, like the ones
Leon and I put in houses, folks, who used to walk through HD and think
how good the Kraftmade cabinets were, now think they look "cheap" ...
and that's a quote. And I agree ... after building/seeing/using/owning
hand crafted cabinet boxes and components, Kraftmade simply no longer
looks like "quality" goods.

I also agree that for most, if the choice is between built-in kitchen
cabinets, or 'factory made' cabinet boxes and components like Kraftmade
makes, Kraftmade is one of the better ways to go these days ... then
again, ask me how many millions of dollars worth of houses just our
kitchen cabinets alone have sold, some more than once. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 14, 11:32=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/14/2010 7:33 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > Having said all this, it all comes down to the installation. A
> > mediocre set of cabinets installed properly is a better deal than high-
> > end materials banged together and finished poorly.
>
> You bet ... houses settle, wood expands and contracts, and walls move,
> so here is the reality of the situation:
>
> The square, well built, "modular" cabinet box, shimmed level and
> properly hung on non-square walls, walls that are going to move a bit
> sooner or later during the life of the house, will still be square after
> said wall movement, and all the parts, doors, drawers, drawer fronts
> will have a much better chance of surviving wall movement and still fit
> like new.
>
> Component pieces of built-in cabinetry on that same set of walls are
> going to move with the walls, in differing amounts according to their
> location, to the detriment of ALL parts fitting together like they did
> before the inevitable movement/settling.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

I probably told this tale of woe here before. I installed a nice set
of countertops on a pretty high-end kitchen in a half-million dollar
new home.
Quartz island, contrasting Corian all around the rest of the kitchen.
Behind the sink area, I installed a 1/2" thick x 3" high strip of
Corian, functioning as a backsplash. The way that is done is simple:
you put a wavy bead of silicon on the back of the backsplash and then
hit it with a hot-melt 3M adhesive every 2-3 feet. You do this
quickly. Then push the backplash to the wall and downward to the top
of the counter. When the hotmelt sets up, you can let go. ...about 2
minutes. Then finish with a tiny bead of silicon (Axiom coloured
translucent, expensive, but it works miracles.)
A few months later, the home-owner called me all upset that the back
splash had come away from the countertop.
Indeed, there was a serious gap between the bottom of the backsplash
and the top of the countertop, in some places as much as a whole 1/4".
Well, we know the backsplash didn't crawl up the wall....sooo, what
Swingman said. Things settle. The whole floor dropped in that area.

Just for shits 'n giggles, I followed up with the builder curious as
ol' hell how that happened. Turns out the crew had put the engineered
joists onto shim-pads made of cut-off engineered flake board, on top
of the concrete basement. The stuff compressed over time and the whole
shebang dropped as much as 3/8" in some areas. Where the rest of them
were hanging off a proper ledger board, nothing sagged.

Those shortcuts WILL bite you in the ass.

On May 14, 3:02=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/14/2010 1:24 PM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > A few months later, the home-owner called me all upset that the back
> > splash had come away from the countertop.
> > Indeed, there was a serious gap between the bottom of the backsplash
> > and the top of the countertop, in some places as much as a whole 1/4".
> > Well, we know the backsplash didn't crawl up the wall....sooo, what
> > Swingman said. Things settle. The whole floor dropped in that area.
>
> > Just for shits 'n giggles, I followed up with the builder curious as
> > ol' hell how that happened. Turns out the crew had put the engineered
> > joists onto shim-pads made of cut-off engineered flake board, on top
> > of the concrete basement. The stuff compressed over time and the whole
> > shebang dropped as much as 3/8" in some areas. Where the rest of them
> > were hanging off a proper ledger board, nothing sagged.
>
> > Those shortcuts WILL bite you in the ass.
>
> Ouch! .. and that's an old no no. But you still see it done by someone
> on almost every job, particularly in crawlspace foundations..

Bingo.. it was a crawlspace albeit a tall one with actual poured
walls.
Howdidyaknow?
>

On 18 May 2010 08:11:59 GMT, Mac Cool <[email protected]> wrote the
following:

>Nonny:
>
>> The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
>> was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
>> would have been made in local shops.
>>
>
>Thanks to everyone for the advice but I won't be buying premade cabinets
>and have already started building my own. The only bummer is that my shop
>is too small for full sheets of plywood so I have to pare them down with a
>circular saw. Maybe my first project should have been a panel saw.

I'd be willing to bet the the Festeringtool trio would say that you
have a Festerless problem, Mac.

Here's one solution: http://fwd4.me/OmZ

--
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter
the state of facts and evidence. -- John Adams, December 1770
'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials'

On May 14, 3:24=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> Prefinished cabs handle all that or you. =A0If you don't like IKEA or
> others, try to find a local cabinet distributor of finished cabinets
> and see what they have. =A0There is actually a lot of nice stuff out
> there these days.
>
> Robert

IKEA has different qualities, that I have seen. I am no fan of IKEA,
but I was surprised at the consistent quality and finish of their
kitchen cabinets.
A client of mine buys and flips expensive condos in Toronto and always
has the kitchen all ready for one of my countertops. (Well, the new
guys will be doing this now)

There are other choices that a dealer can bring in for you.

Having said all this, it all comes down to the installation. A
mediocre set of cabinets installed properly is a better deal than high-
end materials banged together and finished poorly.

On 5/14/2010 1:24 PM, Robatoy wrote:

> A few months later, the home-owner called me all upset that the back
> splash had come away from the countertop.
> Indeed, there was a serious gap between the bottom of the backsplash
> and the top of the countertop, in some places as much as a whole 1/4".
> Well, we know the backsplash didn't crawl up the wall....sooo, what
> Swingman said. Things settle. The whole floor dropped in that area.
>
> Just for shits 'n giggles, I followed up with the builder curious as
> ol' hell how that happened. Turns out the crew had put the engineered
> joists onto shim-pads made of cut-off engineered flake board, on top
> of the concrete basement. The stuff compressed over time and the whole
> shebang dropped as much as 3/8" in some areas. Where the rest of them
> were hanging off a proper ledger board, nothing sagged.
>
> Those shortcuts WILL bite you in the ass.

Ouch! .. and that's an old no no. But you still see it done by someone
on almost every job, particularly in crawlspace foundations with double
and triple 2x12's that rest on concrete piers in the middle of a span.

Case in point ... note the plywood laying on the pea gravel.

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcaillouet/SBFraming#5414349463222115922

Hmmmmm, wonder where that came from?? :)

The rule is: when shimming wood beams, use wood shims of the same wood
hardness and density as the beam and with continuous bearing surface,
top and bottom.

As always, the devil is in the details ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 18, 4:30=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/18/2010 4:11 AM, Mac Cool wrote:
>
> > Nonny:
>
> >> The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
> >> was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
> >> would have been made in local shops.
>
> > Thanks to everyone for the advice but I won't be buying premade cabinet=
s
> > and have already started building my own. The only bummer is that my sh=
op
> > is too small for full sheets of plywood so I have to pare them down wit=
h a
> > circular saw. Maybe my first project should have been a panel saw.
>
> Have you made yourself one of these
> <http://www.benchnotes.com/Skillsaw%20Guide/skillsaw_cutting_guide_boa...=
>?
> =A0 If not you might want to.

That plan assumes that you can trust the factory edge. This is the
problem with all of these guides; getting the straight edge straight.
I have a set of Emerson clamp guides that work well up to 50" (though
they don't self-position like the above guide). I have aluminum
guides for that, but they're a PITA to use (making sure the joint is
straight).

> Note that that's just one version--googling "circular saw guide plans"
> will get you a number of other variations on the same theme.
>
> Also, instead of the clamps shown, a couple of Irwin Quick-Grip Minis
> work a treat for holding the thing in place while cutting.

Irwins are great light duty clamps. I have a few XPs that are great
for assembling stuff before the glue dries, too.

On May 14, 7:33=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 14, 3:24=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Prefinished cabs handle all that or you. =A0If you don't like IKEA or
> > others, try to find a local cabinet distributor of finished cabinets
> > and see what they have. =A0There is actually a lot of nice stuff out
> > there these days.
>
> > Robert
>
> IKEA has different qualities, that I have seen. I am no fan of IKEA,
> but I was surprised at the consistent quality and finish of their
> kitchen cabinets.
> A client of mine buys and flips expensive condos in Toronto and always
> has the kitchen all ready for one of my countertops. (Well, the new
> guys will be doing this now)
>
> There are other choices that a dealer can bring in for you.
>
> Having said all this, it all comes down to the installation. A
> mediocre set of cabinets installed properly is a better deal than high-
> end materials banged together and finished poorly.

Finished up the kitchen in our new house a few months ago. When my
wife suggested IKEA, I initially shrieked and uttered expletives.
After giving them a good hard look and reading a lot of reviews, we
ended up going with IKEA. If you get a chance, go around a store
that's had their kitchen "vignettes" installed for a while and you can
pretty quickly figure out the strengths and weaknesses; open the doors
and drawers poke around inside and look for any rub spots etc. These
things see quite a bit of wear; especially on the "oh honey, this
blobbity blob cabinet is neat ones" -- i.e. corner lazy susan's, tall
pantries, tall drawers for garbage cans etc). The closest IKEA to us
was just about to undergo a complete overhaul when we were looking
around -- so everything had been well pretty abused without too much
obvious effort at repair.

Sure, IF I had time I could have built very nice cab's for about the
same money (depending on how you reckon the value of time). And yes,
if built them there would be more plywood and less particle board.
And yes there are better cabinets that can be had COTS for a lot more
money. Had a friend who work in a cab shop by and his opinion was
that they would really have to struggle to get comparable cabs at
comparable price. To loop back to Robatoy's post, after building up a
kitchen-full, there's a lot of optimized engineering going on that
makes it easier to get a good installation. Particularly I like the
way the upper cabinets are mounted to a steel T-track which you can
really lag to the studs; lift the uppers into place, tie them
together, fine tune the lateral adjustment to your hearts content,
level everything then torque the t-bolts down. Maybe this has become
standard and I don't realize it. But there are lot of "howto's" that
still have people setting cabinets up on temporary rails and blocks
before they are screwed to the studs. All the hardware is Blum-
branded and almost all the doors (and all the drawers) have soft close
dampers by default. Dampers aren't available for some of the
frankenstein double hinge corner doors. I'm still undecided about the
drawer box construction (metal sides, melamine coated particle board
bottoms) but the easy drawer front adjustment (metal screws in metal
hardware) is nice given that the design is frameless. One other nice
feature is that all the insert gadgets are designed to play together
and are pretty well thought out.

Somewhere else in this thread it was pointed out that there's only one
style of cabinet. That's probably true, but the "style" referenced is
the base carcass, there are quite a few door drawer front styles.

We'll see how I feel about the cabinets in a few years, but so far I'm
not unhappy with them.

hex
-30-

On Sat, 15 May 2010 14:30:12 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>
>
>Not to be argumentative, but while Kraftmade are indeed some of the
>better, factory made boxes, I can spot them a block away.

Me too, though they're better than the not-much-above-contractor-grade stuff
in this house. The thing that impresses me about Kraftmade is the thought
that goes into, um, "gadgets". Some are neat, some useless. Why would I want
built-in spice racks? OTOH, some of the pan storage is quite well thought
out.

>I've heard it remarked on many an occasion, that, after having now owned
>kitchen cabinets hand crafted with high quality materials, like the ones
>Leon and I put in houses, folks, who used to walk through HD and think
>how good the Kraftmade cabinets were, now think they look "cheap" ...
>and that's a quote. And I agree ... after building/seeing/using/owning
>hand crafted cabinet boxes and components, Kraftmade simply no longer
>looks like "quality" goods.

I think they look cheap, even from a distance. Maybe they're "too perfect",
like plastic. I'm also not a fan of plastic components. I've had a fifteen
year old kitchen when these pieces start to dry out and break.

>I also agree that for most, if the choice is between built-in kitchen
>cabinets, or 'factory made' cabinet boxes and components like Kraftmade
>makes, Kraftmade is one of the better ways to go these days ... then
>again, ask me how many millions of dollars worth of houses just our
>kitchen cabinets alone have sold, some more than once. :)

Isn't it illegal to sell a house more than once? ;-)

BTW, we took a half-day to go through the Ikea in Atlanta a while back. THeir
stuff makes Kraftmade look great. What a pile of plastic junk! ...wouldn't
last five years.

On 5/18/2010 4:11 AM, Mac Cool wrote:
> Nonny:
>
>> The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
>> was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
>> would have been made in local shops.
>>
>
> Thanks to everyone for the advice but I won't be buying premade cabinets
> and have already started building my own. The only bummer is that my shop
> is too small for full sheets of plywood so I have to pare them down with a
> circular saw. Maybe my first project should have been a panel saw.

Have you made yourself one of these
<http://www.benchnotes.com/Skillsaw%20Guide/skillsaw_cutting_guide_boa.htm>?
If not you might want to.

Note that that's just one version--googling "circular saw guide plans"
will get you a number of other variations on the same theme.

Also, instead of the clamps shown, a couple of Irwin Quick-Grip Minis
work a treat for holding the thing in place while cutting.

Hi,

I have a sheet of 4' X 8' Styrofoam, I put down on the
floor for cutting plywood. After 10 years, mine is looking
a bit ragged. One nice thing about this is after the first
cut, I am often kneeling on the foam which is softer than
concrete.

Thanks
Roger

Mac Cool wrote:
> Nonny:
>
>> The quality of the Kraftmade cabinets
>> was very good and probably better than most custom cabinets that
>> would have been made in local shops.
>>
>
> Thanks to everyone for the advice but I won't be buying premade cabinets
> and have already started building my own. The only bummer is that my shop
> is too small for full sheets of plywood so I have to pare them down with a
> circular saw. Maybe my first project should have been a panel saw.

On 05/14/2010 12:24 PM, Robatoy wrote:

> I probably told this tale of woe here before. I installed a nice set
> of countertops on a pretty high-end kitchen in a half-million dollar
> new home.
<snip>
> A few months later, the home-owner called me all upset that the back
> splash had come away from the countertop.

I've heard of similar stories where the base cabinets sat on a ledger
board at the back and on construction lumber spacers (behind the
toe-kick) at the front.

As the construction lumber dried and shrunk, the front edge of the
counter drooped noticeably.

Chris

On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:26:23 -0500, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Why would I want built-in spice racks? OTOH, some of the pan storage is quite well thought
>out.

Depends on how often you go through your spices and/or if they're
exposed to light. Spices deteriorate very quickly (taste wise) when
exposed to light over even a few months. The cure is such things as
your built in spice rack in a drawer or some other light blocking
method.

On 5/15/2010 4:27 PM, Nonny wrote:

<snip of good stuff>

> The best cabinets, IMHO, are still the ones
> where a cabinet maker comes to the house, measures and returns with
> cabinets he's made and finished in the controlled conditions of his
> shop. The best installs I've seen are almost always where the cabinet
> maker himself does the installation of his cabinets.

Indeed! The absolute best of all possible worlds! <BSEG>

> I don't know where you are from, but here in Las Vegas, the big thing is
> granite for kitchens and marble for baths in the upscale homes, and
> granite for kitchens and ceramic tile on bath counter tops for the
> middle grade ones. Occasionally, if money is tight, a buyer will have
> the default tops of 4X4 ceramic installed, and have plans to remove it
> eventually and replace it with granite. Corian, Silestone and similar
> synthetics are almost nonexistent here and laminate tops are equally
> scarce for some reason.

Pretty much the same here.

> While off the subject of cabinets, flooring here is subtly different
> than it was in NC, IN or other places I've lived. Here, carpet is used
> in low traffic areas and where sound control is needed like a bedroom,
> but the general living area of a middle-upscale house is typically
> ceramic or clay tile, laid with a 3/8" grout line, or Travertine laid
> with a 0 grout line. Where I grew up, you might have a small tile area
> by the front door or garage entrance, but then wall to wall carpet
> elsewhere. I'm not sure if that's a sign of the times or what.

Here, mostly hardwood's throughout, with slate, or some other natural
stone, in the master baths, with same or travertine in the guest and
other baths. Lots of natural stone outside ... porches, breezeways,
sidewalks, etc. Rarely see concrete flatwork in these areas. Rarely see
carpet anywhere in the main house, but quite common in MIL/maid quarters.

With the exception of bathrooms and closets, which are the all 'full
monte' cabinet ammenities you can generally cram in, I tend to leave
about 70% of the built-ins (entertainment centers, books cases, etc.)
left to the imagination of the buyer on a spec house, that way we can
build/trim out exactly what they want ... lately I'm surprised at the
number of folks wanting full bookcases again ... for years they were out
of favor. Same goes with wainscoting on dining room and den walls. Some
folks love it, others hate it.

Then again, there is always someone who will love the house, no matter
what its got in it, where it is (on the railroad tracks), and in spite
of all the agonizing over color schemes, and what "features" will or
won't sell, in the design stage. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Mac Cool wrote:
> Robatoy:
>
>> Oh yea... do the plinth routine. MUCH easier and faster. Just level
>> the 'platform' and the rest falls into place.
>
> By plinth you are referring to the adjustable feet, correct?

As Robatoy showed. Except they don't have to be that fancy, depending on
what you are doing.

Mine are PT 2x4s front and aft Tapconed vertically to the slab with PT cross
pieces nailed to the fore and aft. There are two more PT 2x4s screwed
horizontally on top of the vertical ones. All "show" edges have 1/4" cement
board nailed/screwed to the 2x4s. Why? Because I put Saltillo tile on the
floor AND on the vertical sides of the plinth.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Mac Cool wrote:
> Planning my kitchen rebuild and at the last minute I'm reconsidering
> if building modular cabinets is really the way to go or if I should
> just build them in place. I've built stand alone cabinets before and
> I'm familiar with the process but it looks like built in place
> cabinetry would use a good deal less sheet material and who doesn't
> like to save money. But I'm not familiar with building cabinets in
> place so it would be something new to learn. What do you guys think?

I've done both. In fact, I am nearly finished with a built in place cabinet
on my screen porch.

I can't see that you would save much in sheet goods. OK, you can skip a
back but you can do that with modular ones. You also wouldn't need inside
ends; that too could be skipped in modular ones but you'd have to have open
frames to attach one to another. Built in place ones should have them too
for strength if the cabinet is of any size.

Built in place means the horizontal pieces are going to be a PITA to fit
because if there is a side as well a back wall because of the corner taping.

As you can see, I think modular is easier. I *do* build an in place plinth
to set them on so I can avoid making toe kicks on the cabinets.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 5/14/2010 7:33 AM, Robatoy wrote:

> Having said all this, it all comes down to the installation. A
> mediocre set of cabinets installed properly is a better deal than high-
> end materials banged together and finished poorly.

You bet ... houses settle, wood expands and contracts, and walls move,
so here is the reality of the situation:

The square, well built, "modular" cabinet box, shimmed level and
properly hung on non-square walls, walls that are going to move a bit
sooner or later during the life of the house, will still be square after
said wall movement, and all the parts, doors, drawers, drawer fronts
will have a much better chance of surviving wall movement and still fit
like new.

Component pieces of built-in cabinetry on that same set of walls are
going to move with the walls, in differing amounts according to their
location, to the detriment of ALL parts fitting together like they did
before the inevitable movement/settling.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)