Copper patination for Stickley Craftsman furniture reproductions

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:43:11 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Every time Toomey and Treadway have an auction, I get to spend a week making
>replacement hardware.

Thanks ! I knew there'd be someone who really knew this.

>That's way too thin. the originals are 10g copper with sand cast brass
>pulls(copper plated)

The 20 gauge is just for the trays. I've 8 and 10 gauge waiting for
the drawer pulls.

For the bails, I'm looking at either working copper bar, or casting my
own in bronze (probably coinage alloy). I'd quite like to do some
tansu styles, while I'm about it.

>You can't get the hammer blows close enough to leave a sharp edge in 20g.

This is what I was beginning to expect. But 20 gauge is basically free
and replacing any thick stock that I use up is going to mean buying at
retail prices (shameful !), so I'm a little wary to experiment on
that.

Thanks for the pointer on hammer radius. I'll either find something,
or grind an old one up to suit.

>As you hammer the sheet the part you hit streches. It you hammer one part
>more then it's surroundings, you end up with an oil can.

First tray I did, I worked it by sinking the tray shape and _then_
trying to texture it. Now _that_ was an oil can ! Now I texture the
raw sheet, flatten it with a rawhide mallet and then work the shape.
So long as I'm even with the texture density, it all stays flat.

Thanks for your advice.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:43:27 -0400, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:

>My material of choice is none other than copper pipe.

Goodness, that's hard work !

My favoured source for thin sheet (18-22 gauge, depending on what you
find) is copper water heaters ("immersion heaters" to the Brits). I
get these from the local dump for £5 each and each one yields up a
couple of square yards of useful flat sheet.

One nice feature of the immersion heaters is that about half of them
have a black cupric oxide (rather than red-pink cuprous) patina on the
inside. This stuff is glass-hard and a better surface treatment than
anything I can apply myself. The recipe is something like "immerse in
near-boiling water in a slightly acidic anoxic environment, then wait
10 years". It's so hard that it survives power-brushing to clean it,
and then sinking the trays with a hammer.

Thick copper comes from my scrap dealer. Now sadly closed, they used
to carry a lot of NOS unused non-ferrous stock.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

20ga seems like it might be a bit thin.
What are you using as a hammer?

-Jack

"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm trying to reproduce the hammered copper hardware used by Gustav
> Stickley. Any advice ?
>
> As a rough guide, here's just one web picture of the style:
>
http://www.treadwaygallery.com/12-3-2000-sale/catalog/arts&crafts/lot414.html
>
> I know the finish I'm after. I think it's probably lighter than
> Stickley is today, but I have some traditional copperware from
> Nagasaki (it's a traditional local craft there) that's exactly what I
> want. Sharp-edged indents for the hammer effect, and a very bright
> abraded edge to the top of these, all on a darker ground.
>
> I'm currently working 20 gauge sheet. I can hammer this easily enough,
> but I just can;t get the whole sheet to take sharp edges. Is this too
> thin ? It seems (this is crazy, but it's what it appears to be doing)
> as if annealing the sheet to work it further "relaxes" the edges and I
> find myself with rounded snake-like patterns between the indents.
>
> Secondly, what should I use as a patination ? I'd be interested in
> anything that other makers of such Stickley repros (I know you're out
> there) are using.
>
> Using the techiques from "Colouring, Bronzing & Patination of Metals"
> I'm thinking of either 3.35 or 3.70 Both of these are copper
> sulphate / ferrous sulphate mixtures, one an acidic solution with
> acetic acid and the other with zinc sulphate and potassium
> permanganate as an oxidiser. Is it worth trying the nickel sulphate
> or the rokusho recipes ? I'm certainly too wary of antimony
> trichloride as an ingredient !
>
> --
> Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy Dingley wrote in message ...
>I'm trying to reproduce the hammered copper hardware used by Gustav
>Stickley. Any advice ?
>
>As a rough guide, here's just one web picture of the style:
>http://www.treadwaygallery.com/12-3-2000-sale/catalog/arts&crafts/lot414.ht
ml

Every time Toomey and Treadway have an auction, I get to spend a week making
replacement hardware.

>I know the finish I'm after. I think it's probably lighter than
>Stickley is today, but I have some traditional copperware from
>Nagasaki (it's a traditional local craft there) that's exactly what I
>want. Sharp-edged indents for the hammer effect, and a very bright
>abraded edge to the top of these, all on a darker ground.

If you're trying to duplicate antique fittings, the aging on patinaed copper
works the other way. The recesses hold the original patina but the high
points end up darker, because after they have the patina worn off, they are
free to oxidize in the air.

>I'm currently working 20 gauge sheet.

That's way too thin. the originals are 10g copper with sand cast brass
pulls(copper plated)
You can't get the hammer blows close enough to leave a sharp edge in 20g.



I can hammer this easily enough,
>but I just can;t get the whole sheet to take sharp edges. Is this too
>thin ? It seems (this is crazy, but it's what it appears to be doing)
>as if annealing the sheet to work it further "relaxes" the edges and I
>find myself with rounded snake-like patterns between the indents.

As you hammer the sheet the part you hit streches. It you hammer one part
more then it's surroundings, you end up with an oil can. Hammer control and
practice are the only cure.

>
>Secondly, what should I use as a patination ? I'd be interested in
>anything that other makers of such Stickley repros (I know you're out
>there) are using.

Most use patina in a can, but it is too thin and wears off too easy.

>
>Using the techiques from "Colouring, Bronzing & Patination of Metals"
>I'm thinking of either 3.35 or 3.70 Both of these are copper
>sulphate / ferrous sulphate mixtures, one an acidic solution with
>acetic acid and the other with zinc sulphate and potassium
>permanganate as an oxidiser. Is it worth trying the nickel sulphate
>or the rokusho recipes ? I'm certainly too wary of antimony
>trichloride as an ingredient !
>

Mostly I use 25 g/l copper sulfate with 1 g/l ammonium chloride, boiling
immersion for about 30 min.

I can usually tweak the mix a little to shift the color. Then I use weak
liver of sulfur to do the aging.

Paul K. Dickman
>--
>Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy Dingley wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:19:59 -0700, "JackD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>20ga seems like it might be a bit thin.
>
>The 20 gauge sheet is actually for copper tea trays, rather than
>cabinet hardware. I don't want to go any thicker, because of weight,
>and they look pretty good as they are.
>http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/trays/

20 g isn't thick enough to hold the pulls on.
>
>Now though, I need to do some hardware for a chest of drawers, so
>getting a more accurate repro is starting to be important.
>
>>What are you using as a hammer?
>
>Tried almost every hammer I have ! I'm currently using an 8oz ball
>pein on a very long shaft, with a piece of 1/2" steel plate as an
>anvil. I've also been using a 20oz ball pein, with the pein ground
>down to a smaller radius. The 8oz is about right for the thin sheet,
>and less tiring than the heavy one, but I might need to go heavier for
>the thicker sheet.

The face or the peen should have about a 2 foot radius.
The texture doesn't come from the depth of the dent. It comes from having a
single clear hammer blow touching another clear hammer blow.

A tighter radius, stretches the metal excessively and requires more blows
per square inch.

Paul K. Dickman
>
>--
>Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

I believe that Alaskan Copper and Brass (Seattle) carries sheet copper
with that hammered finish, although it's bright and not patinated.

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:19:59 -0700, "JackD" <[email protected]> wrote:

>20ga seems like it might be a bit thin.

The 20 gauge sheet is actually for copper tea trays, rather than
cabinet hardware. I don't want to go any thicker, because of weight,
and they look pretty good as they are.
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/trays/

Now though, I need to do some hardware for a chest of drawers, so
getting a more accurate repro is starting to be important.

>What are you using as a hammer?

Tried almost every hammer I have ! I'm currently using an 8oz ball
pein on a very long shaft, with a piece of 1/2" steel plate as an
anvil. I've also been using a 20oz ball pein, with the pein ground
down to a smaller radius. The 8oz is about right for the thin sheet,
and less tiring than the heavy one, but I might need to go heavier for
the thicker sheet.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy,

I'm not a metal worker but I have visited a shop in Maine that makes cupola
tops (wind indicators) out of copper as well as many other beautiful things.
One of the tricks was to use a section of a sugar maple tree trunk (~18"
dia), upended so you pound on the endgrain. The trunk was slightly dished
out with a froe as I recall to help shape the sheets of copper.

Also, you may be working the copper to much - "work annealing" comes to mind
as the expression used and can cause the copper to split.

Bob S.

Andy Dingley wrote:

> As a rough guide, here's just one web picture of the style:
>
http://www.treadwaygallery.com/12-3-2000-sale/catalog/arts&crafts/lot414.html

I can't really see the hardware on that, and I don't have a clear idea of
the style, but I have a vague idea what you're probably talking about. The
stuff with all the little dents in it... :)

> as if annealing the sheet to work it further "relaxes" the edges and I
> find myself with rounded snake-like patterns between the indents.

I've done similar denty stuff. Not as fancy as what you're probably doing,
but look at my sunflower:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/shop/sunflower-detail.jpg

Actually, that picture doesn't really show the dents very well at all. The
dents are from the back, making flat facets on the outside of the center of
the sunflower, sort of like a fly's eyes. I ended up sticking all those
pop rivets in there to "explain" the pop rivets that are holding the petals
on. I did this one before I devised a way to hold all that stuff together
long enough to solder it, and it looks cheesy. It's the only one I still
have though. The rest were sold or given away. (Mostly the latter, which
is why I don't do that stuff anymore. :( )

> Secondly, what should I use as a patination ? I'd be interested in
> anything that other makers of such Stickley repros (I know you're out
> there) are using.

I don't know a Stickley from a bucket of blurfls, and all that stuff you're
blathering about is way over my head. The best way to patniate copper is
to apply liberal quantites of oxygen, water, and time. Everything else is
cheating. :)

Um, anyway, back to the metal. I don't know how thick 20 ga. sheet is off
the top of my head because sheet copper is incredibly freaking expensive,
and I've never used it. I've made all manner of flowers (cosmos, mallow,
hibiscus, sunflowers, zinnias, daisies... pretty much every kind of common
garden ray flower) and I've used the same material for all of them.

My material of choice is none other than copper pipe. You want small pieces
of heavy gauge sheet metal? All you have to do is anneal a scrap of
thick-wall rigid copper pipe, slit it up the middle with tin snips (you can
do an entire 10' pipe once you get the hang of it, but annealing the whole
thing is tricky), hammer it flat, and shape from there. I use the flat
face of a 16 oz. ball pein for this. The largest common US size yields
strips of sheet metal about 3" wide. I'd imagine the UK is similar.

The thick stuff will take quite a beating before work hardening to the point
of cracking, and I think you could make hardware of the vague type I have
in mind without re-annealing it at any point. You might want to anneal it
after flattening it, just to be on the safe side, but you don't have to go
nuts. Best of all, when you screw up, the material is either comparatively
cheap, or free. You could probably make a lot of drawer pulls out of one
$10 pipe vs. a freaking expensive sheet of copper...

I'm babbling incoherently because I'm excited that someone asked a question
that gives me a chance to talk about my experiences making copper
flowers... If this babble doesn't make sense, slap me, and I'll try to
take a deep breath and write something more comprehensible.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/