Pass You Eye! Assembled Table Pics

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:08:40 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

> Most of that was finding out what she didn't have, pancreatitis, bowel
> obstruction, etc. Symptoms came on in the space of 20 minutes - tremors,
> heavy panting, and yelped when you tried to pick her up.
>
> Never did get a definitive answer, but it took a couple of days for her
> to get back to normal.

Wow... glad she's OK. Sick pets can be nearly as traumatic as having any other family in that position.

Having seen her in action, I can imagine her backing down a big dog pretty easily!

Robert

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 8:21:09 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

>=20
> I think it looks great, Had it been 11'4" I think it would have been wa=
y
> too big. :-)

Thanks, Leon. LOL, yeah. There was a defect on the end of one board. If=
I had trimmed all boards, to remove the defect, the table would have been =
8" shorter.... plus, I would have cut off that dutchman, shown in one of t=
he pics (underside of the table). I patched/filled the defect with (prett=
y much) matching patchwork.

Sonny

On 9/17/2015 10:28 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/15/2015 9:46 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/15/2015 7:33 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>>> I call this the Coors effect, and I think for this group, you could call
>>> it the Festool effect.
>>>
>> Ignorance is bliss uh Jack?
>
> Did Festool suddenly change their pricing structure to more accurately
> reflect the true value of the tools, or are you just being fatuous?


AAMOF they have reduced the price of several tools and accessories. The
Carvex jigsaw is just one. 15 volt 5amp Li-Ion batteries have dropped
to $55.

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9/11/2015 11:06 PM, Sonny wrote:
>> A few issues:
>> 1) The keys on one end are too tight. I can hammer them in, but I
>> prefer not to. I want them snug, but not too tight. I'll work on
>> them later. Things fit, correctly, two weeks ago... might be wood movement?
>> 2) One brace, under the top, is out of alignment by 1/4". I'll tweak
>> it later. 3) One corner of the table is 1/4" higher than the others.
>> It may be the "drapes" under the foot, trash on the floor (under drape),
>> may be my shop floor is not level, or a combo of all.
>>
>> Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.
>>
>> No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.
>>
>> Kinna cramped space, for better pics.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/
>
> Cher, that's not woodworking, that's art!
>
> Gorgeous!!


I think it looks great, Had it been 11'4" I think it would have been way
too big. :-)

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 4:34:02 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Electric Comet wrote:

> > was thinking conference table when i saw it too
> > could probably get 20 grand as a conference table
> >
> > maybe even more than that because some people=20

> > $1000 per chair and up

Screw "some people" and their wallets. I don't need money. I'm retired =
and do woodwork for fun. This table just happens to have come out pretty =
darn good and the original idea was not to sell it, but to put it at the ca=
mp, because we needed a better dining table, there. At the camp, I don't =
think any of those drunk idiots would object to sitting on 5 gallon cans, w=
hen eating. But I do have ideas for making dining chairs.... to suit myse=
lf and this table, not to suit some high spender. I find, often times, my=
ideas are agreeable to most others, so I have confidence in my ideas and d=
esigns.

Albeit, the table is a candidate for high end customers, and that's certain=
ly an option, and I am having second thoughts about bring it to the camp. =
More so than attorneys, I have lots of physician friends, who have very ni=
ce camps along the Gulf coast, there abouts.

> I have no idea where you shop for office furniture, but I've had some top=
=20
> end office funishings over my career and never saw prices like these.=20
> Granted - there are people who will pay stupid prices for stuff, but they=
're=20
> really hard to find. And you have to have exactly what they want to get=
=20
> those prices. You are way off base for 99% of the office buying public.

LOL. Thanks Mike. And there is something to say about cheap office furni=
ture, lending this thought to another thread : Farm table part Deux: Top g=
lue up? I like this table idea, also. Long ago, two weeks before we ope=
ned our mediacl office, I went to Sears and bought chisels and a 4" belt sa=
nder... I had other tools. I made 5 exam tables with 2X4s (trestle table =
constructon, as in that Farm Table thread), upholstered with naugahyde. T=
hey are still in the office and in good shape. Back then, they probably c=
ost $25 each, total, to construct. I'm still a cheap bastid, too, always =
looking for free or cheap lumber.

Sonny

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:

>
> That's quite a piece! Really creative legs too. Do you get to keep it?
>
> Bill

Thanks, Bill. The legs created themselves, I just dressed them up, a bit.

My nephew says it's too nice for the camp. I'll keep it for a while, at least. Not sure where it will end up. I do need to get it out of the shop, though. My kitchen-dining room is 20X40, so I'll likely stash it there, for the time being.

Sonny

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 4:22:06 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

>
> If you are seriously considering selling it, keep in mind that it doesn't
> have to be a dining table...it could be a conference table.

Thanks, DadiOH. I'll consider selling it. I do like the table, myself, though. It has turned out much better than I had initially envisioned, but then, it's the walnut that's doing all the showmanship work.

Personally, I'd prefer it to be in a place where it'll be readily seen, not stashed in some private room, where only a few folks would be privy to it.

I can envision it in a sunlit room, with lots of windows, where good natural light will allow best viewing of the wood grain (and construction!?) features.

Sonny

On 9/17/2015 12:46 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:18:13 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> Knowledgeable, maybe.
>
> he does seem to know all the correct terminology and seems to know
> his way around pretty well

Seems is correct. I would suggest that the parts he focused on don't
need to be as toughly built as he leads you to believe.

Anyway IIRC Festool was one of the first to have a track saw and IIRC
some 40 years ago.



>
>> FWIW Festools stand the test of time.
>
> that is something many cheaper tools take shortcuts on for sure
> planned obsolence is the fancy word for garbage

Well for some people a cheaply made tool is a better choice. There is
value in a less expensive tool that gets the job done and floats around
a work crew that may not appreciate the cost of buying tools. If it
breaks or gets left in the rain or is left and lost it is more easily
replaced. On the flip side the guy that purchases and uses the tools
himself will almost always find better value in a more expensive better
built tool.

>
>> What he thinks appears to be cheaply or marginally made does not
>> indicate a lack of durability or quality.



> he could do better by doing side-by-side comparisons but i think he had
> some good points


Maybe, I don't recall which of the two sizes he was taking apart, I and
Swingman both own the larger of the two saws and I can probably speak
for him that neither of us have any problems or regret the purchase.
And again, these saws have been around for decades and still have one of
the best warranties in the industry. What we think matters may not
matter at all.

>
> but what does festool care if they sell product
> it does ring a bit of the seagram's effect but pricing is quite a tricky thing

Being German designed and manufactured in Germany with quality parts
probably has a lot more to do with pricing than the illusion of better.
Festool has been around for a relative long time and sold mostly to
the trades. They were not inexpensive then nor now. I don't believe
that their pricing is a recent scheme.


>
>
>> I bought my wife a Ricar America vacuum cleaner. Expensive and
>
> never hear of it but will have to see a tear down of that one
> i have had a hoover forever
> it sucks up dirt fine but it is loud loud loud
>

You mostly see Ricar vacuum cleaners at dealer and repair shops that
mostly sell to cleaning companies. It is a commercial machine.
The real beauty is that it is quiet compared to others and is very light
weight. Probably 10~15 lbs.

I went into my local vac shop on the early 90's shopping for me. I
request was that the machine keeps what it runs over, namely pennies and
dimes, paper clips. etc. It does that very well, most would rattle the
debris and throw it back out somewhere else. If yu run over something
you better have intended to do so.
At the time what made this machine different is that the debris and did
did not go through the motor/suction impeller.
The dirt wen straight from the hose into the bag. The motor/impeller
creates a vacuum inside the air sealed bag chamber. Air goes through
the bag and exits through a foam filter and then through a charcoal
filter and then past the motor/impeller. I'm sure that there are many
made like this now but it was pretty unique 25 years ago.

Another example of an item priced high are Honda lawn mowers. I paid
$450 for mine, in the spring of 1987. It is about to complete its 29th
season of cutting. I have changed the spark plug 1 time, air filter, 4
times, and the oil 20+ times. The oil still pours out clean.
The cost of the mower and maintenance, less gas has probably cost me on
average about $20 per season. My neighbors thought I was crazy for
paying double the normal cost for a lawn mower.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 17:33:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 05:21:54 -0400
>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> If you are seriously considering selling it, keep in mind that it
>>> doesn't have to be a dining table...it could be a conference table.
>>> And conference tables need not be accompanied by chairs in a similar
>>> genre or any chairs at all. Same with dining tables for that matter.
>>
>> was thinking conference table when i saw it too
>> could probably get 20 grand as a conference table
>>
>> maybe even more than that because some people seem to like things
>> at ridiculous prices better than the same thing at a lower price
>>
>> as if the higher price improves its appeal
>>
>> they would not want matching chairs they would want those expensive
>> office chairs
>>
>> $1000 per chair and up
>
>I have no idea where you shop for office furniture, but I've had some top
>end office funishings over my career and never saw prices like these.
>Granted - there are people who will pay stupid prices for stuff, but they're
>really hard to find. And you have to have exactly what they want to get
>those prices. You are way off base for 99% of the office buying public.

Perhaps, but that 1% has crazy money to spend. It's much better to
work for people with money than those without.

On 9/17/2015 10:42 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:28:14 -0400
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Did Festool suddenly change their pricing structure to more
>> accurately reflect the true value of the tools, or are you just being
>
> dunno if they changed pricing but there was a tear-down video on a
> festool saw that was very revealing
>
> the fellow was knowledgeable doing the video and it was mentioned
> here not too long ago

Knowledgeable, maybe.

FWIW Festools stand the test of time.

What he thinks appears to be cheaply or marginally made does not
indicate a lack of durability or quality.

I bought my wife a Ricar America vacuum cleaner. Expensive and appears
to be cheaply made. I bought that in 1991. that thing still performs
like it was new and most manufacturers have copied the concept.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 05:13:24 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 4:22:06 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>
>>
>> If you are seriously considering selling it, keep in mind that it doesn't
>> have to be a dining table...it could be a conference table.
>
>Thanks, DadiOH. I'll consider selling it. I do like the table, myself, though. It has turned out much better than I had initially envisioned, but then, it's the walnut that's doing all the showmanship work.
>
>Personally, I'd prefer it to be in a place where it'll be readily seen, not stashed in some private room, where only a few folks would be privy to it.
>
>I can envision it in a sunlit room, with lots of windows, where good natural light will allow best viewing of the wood grain (and construction!?) features.

While it's not Grand Central Station, a lawyer's conference room can
see dozens of different people every day.I think the suggestion is
sound (if you want to sell at all). Sell to people with money. ;-)

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 1:17:37 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrot=
e:

>=20
> ... there is MUCH more to a straight, smooth cutting track saw than just =
the blade.=20

> The key to a perfect cutting track saw is the arbor alignment.
> =20
> .... the impact bent the table about 1/16" out of true 90 degrees with th=
e blade. =20

My 2 relatively new ($200+ each, Makita 5007F & Bosch CS20) circular saws a=
re both out of alignment (2-3, maybe 5 degrees), as Robert describes, and t=
his misalignment started shortly after I bought them. =20

For some of my rough stuff, alignment doesn't matter a great deal, but it d=
oes matter with 75% of my cutting. I hate having to try to readjust the a=
lignment. Lasts for a little while, maybe(!!) a couple of weeks, then it'=
s out of whack, again.

I haven't abused the saws, either, so it didn't take much for them to becom=
e misaligned. I would have thought these saws would have been much sturdi=
er, much better in not misaligning themselves, so readily.

My 30 yr old Craftsman (Which finally burned up) and an old Skil, which the=
se new saws replaced, surely didn't have this issue. Frankly, I had never=
had an issue, as this, so when it showed with the new saws (heavy duty, ex=
pensive, surely top of the line), I had no idea what was going on. I had =
assumed the saws had a factory defect, of some kind.

The Bosch is so unreliable, I don't think I've tried using it in over 2 yea=
rs.

Sonny

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected]=
=20
> I used to make big furniture years ago. But nothing like this. This jus=
t=20
> isn't furniture. This is art. And, as such, should get the artist's=20
> premium pricing.

Thanks. Yeah, for a long time I made bulk furniture, also. Kinna hard t=
o get away from that habit. Mostly, I think, in those past days, the (mo=
stly salvaged) wood dictated what the end result would be, at least for me.=
But I always did like olde timey furniture (bulk) construction and that =
olde style furniture.

These days, that bulk stuff is just too heavy to handle, any more, on a reg=
ular basis. And would you know it, idiot me is, now, making a coat rack w=
ith bulk wood, because I'm too lazy to plane it down to more manageable dim=
ensions.... but the pecan is really warped and I just don't have the energy=
to mess with it, as I use to do.

Sonny

Sonny

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 7:47:58 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

> Cher, that's not woodworking, that's art!
>=20
> Gorgeous!!
>=20

Thanks, Karl.

When we tore down that old cypress house, I didn't pay attention to some of=
the surrounding trees, mostly small scrubs and trash trees. Not until la=
ter did I see this particular walnut log dozed to the side. The other wal=
nut tree was in poor shape, more so for firewood and some turning blanks.

Salvaging the log was no brainer. The wood, itself, should take the credi=
t for its art worthiness, not my hobbyist building skills. I'm lucky to ha=
ve been able to do it justice.

Sonny

"Sonny" wrote:
Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.

No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.

Kinna cramped space, for better pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/

-------------------------------------------------------------
So when do you do the fork lift to compliment the table?

Enjoy.

Lew

"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A few issues:
> 1) The keys on one end are too tight. I can hammer them in, but I prefer
> not to. I want them snug, but not too tight. I'll work on them later.
> Things fit, correctly, two weeks ago... might be wood movement?
> 2) One brace, under the top, is out of alignment by 1/4". I'll tweak it
> later. 3) One corner of the table is 1/4" higher than the others. It
> may be the "drapes" under the foot, trash on the floor (under drape), may
> be my shop floor is not level, or a combo of all.
>
> Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.
>
> No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.
>
> Kinna cramped space, for better pics.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/
>
> Sonny

Not only is that table over the top gorgeous, it plenty damn sturdy. No
matter how much food you stack on there, it will never strain this table. I
wonder if people will feel they can eat more at this table. Casue they
don't want to get up and leave. Let's stay awhile and eat! (And admire the
table.)

Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:mt6vsd$rkg$1
@dont-email.me:

>
> was thinking conference table when i saw it too
> could probably get 20 grand as a conference table
>
> maybe even more than that because some people seem to like things
> at ridiculous prices better than the same thing at a lower price
>
> as if the higher price improves its appeal
>
> they would not want matching chairs they would want those expensive
> office chairs
>
> $1000 per chair and up
>

Sometimes higher prices do improve the appeal. They did studies with
wines, and found the high priced wines were perceived to taste better
when they told the people it was a high priced wine, but worse when not
told.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 05:13:24 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 4:22:06 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If you are seriously considering selling it, keep in mind that it
>>> doesn't
>>> have to be a dining table...it could be a conference table.
>>
>>Thanks, DadiOH. I'll consider selling it. I do like the table, myself,
>>though. It has turned out much better than I had initially envisioned,
>>but then, it's the walnut that's doing all the showmanship work.
>>
>>Personally, I'd prefer it to be in a place where it'll be readily seen,
>>not stashed in some private room, where only a few folks would be privy to
>>it.
>>
>>I can envision it in a sunlit room, with lots of windows, where good
>>natural light will allow best viewing of the wood grain (and
>>construction!?) features.
>
> While it's not Grand Central Station, a lawyer's conference room can
> see dozens of different people every day.I think the suggestion is
> sound (if you want to sell at all). Sell to people with money. ;-)

Sonny,

There is a local outfit that sells these big tables to a lot of firms, both
local and out of state. They "recycle" big old trees.

http://www.urbanhardwoods.com/

You can look at some of their conference tables.. Years ago, they used to
have some big table supports/legs. But went to cheap and fast steel for the
most part and some simple wood supports.. Even with the cheapo supports,
they are getting 10 grand a piece. for them. I would think that your table
easily surpasses anything they got. Their tops are thinner than they used
to be too.

Again, as you pointed out, the original wood is the real star here. You
just worked with it to make it stand out, make it pretty. Without the
original wood, you would not have much. I think that the wood, the thick
top, the joinery and and the wonderful legs you have for this table moves it
easily into the $20,000 range.

I used to make big furniture years ago. But nothing like this. This just
isn't furniture. This is art. And, as such, should get the artist's
premium pricing.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> You mostly see Ricar vacuum cleaners at dealer and repair shops that
> mostly sell to cleaning companies. It is a commercial machine.
> The real beauty is that it is quiet compared to others and is very
> light weight. Probably 10~15 lbs.
>
> I went into my local vac shop on the early 90's shopping for me. I
> request was that the machine keeps what it runs over, namely pennies
> and dimes, paper clips. etc. It does that very well, most would
> rattle the debris and throw it back out somewhere else. If yu run
> over something you better have intended to do so.
> At the time what made this machine different is that the debris and
> did did not go through the motor/suction impeller.
> The dirt wen straight from the hose into the bag. The motor/impeller
> creates a vacuum inside the air sealed bag chamber. Air goes through
> the bag and exits through a foam filter and then through a charcoal
> filter and then past the motor/impeller. I'm sure that there are many
> made like this now but it was pretty unique 25 years ago.
>
> Another example of an item priced high are Honda lawn mowers. I paid
> $450 for mine, in the spring of 1987. It is about to complete its
> 29th season of cutting. I have changed the spark plug 1 time, air
> filter, 4 times, and the oil 20+ times. The oil still pours out
> clean. The cost of the mower and maintenance, less gas has probably
> cost me on average about $20 per season. My neighbors thought I was
> crazy for paying double the normal cost for a lawn mower.

Over time, I've come to these conclusions about price:
1. Quality costs money. It's worth spending on something you use
regularly.
2. Everything has a point where you stop paying for quality and start
paying for a name/marketing.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for that
> saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track and
> systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and the case
> is north of $70.
>
> I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that is
> suspect about their comments.
>
> Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it
> very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for
> cutting.
>

Just out of curiosity, have you experienced a kickback yet with the track
saw? How does it handle it?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Electric Comet" wrote:

> the designers would not usually specify a bearing with a huge MTBF
> as
> they cost more
> but i do not know if there are bearings with 20 year life expectancy
> or if there are bearings with a 35 year life expectancy
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bearings are selected based on cost, not necessarily engineering
parameters.

The higher the volume, the lower the cost. There are more basic
203 ball bearings manufactured that ALL the rest of the ball bearings
combined.

As a result, it is the lowest cost bearing made and often gets applied
in an over engineered applications where a smaller bearing could
be used but it would cost more.

Fractional HP motors, alternators, forgot how many are in the modern
tranny.

It has a 0.669 bore which makes it easy to provide a 5/8" shaft.

Lew

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 9/17/2015 10:28 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>> Did Festool suddenly change their pricing structure to more accurately
>> reflect the true value of the tools, or are you just being fatuous?
>
> The _true value_ of any equipment/tool used in business is it's cost
> effectiveness.
>
> Bought first Festool (starting with a TS-75) in 2009, and collectively
> they have played a big part in well over $300k in sales in just the
> shop/cabinetry part of my business alone during that period ... making
> them the most _cost effective_ brand of tools I've ever owned.
>

First, a sarcastic remark.

Gee Karl, only 300 K worth of hobby cabinets? You are obviously a hobbyist
and amateur. If you were a true professional, you would save up your money
and buy the good stuff. ;)

There are a lot of folks who just don't understand economics, tools or
appropriate technology. I work with some special computers that are only
built in about 4 or five shops in the US. And it takes three to four weeks
to get one built and shipped to you. And they only run a few programs. And
yes, they are expensive.

But the interesting thing is that there are local shops that will build you
a monster machine that costs twice as much. And they won't be as stable, or
as fast and will burn out quite rapidly in use. Because throwing money at
it doesn't get the job done. Due to some unique demands, that increase
every year, not a lot of machines can keep up. The key is not the money
spent or expensive components. The key is building a machine optimized for
a certain function.

Price is not the only issue. IS IT THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB??? People
who work in the real world, solving real problems, spending their own money
don't have any problems making appropriate decisions in this area.

Besides, it takes a certain kind of person to whine about tools or somebody
else's choice of tool. I have always admired good tools. I have always
admired true craftsman. I don't have any problem figuring out whose
opinions I respect and those opinions I disregard.

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 8:12:17 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:

> >
> The Seagrams effect.

I have Crown in the shop. More often I bring VO to the camp, mainly for the other folk.

Sonny

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 11:51:28 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote=
:

> About 18 years ago I bought a DeWalt 10" miter saw and paid $225 for it.=
=20
>=20
> Just last month, the saw handle broke. The rest of the saw is fine, but t=
he replacement handle is about 25% of the cost of a new saw.=20

Can you repair or make a new handle? Or want to spend the time trying?

A possible option:
I often try to repair stuff, so just a thought.... Would fiber glass work =
for the repair? There is fiber glass wrap, for making casts for broken li=
mbs and such. Seems, if your handle is similar to a child's small arm, re=
pairing it may be similar to applying a cast to a child's small arm.... wit=
h a splint/metal rod inserted inside the wrapping, if need be?).
https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dorthopedic+Fiber+glass+casting+wrap&rlz=
=3D1C1PQHA_enUS574US586&espv=3D2&source=3Dlnms&tbm=3Disch&sa=3DX&ved=3D0CAg=
Q_AUoAmoVChMIu6WW76KByAIVShc-Ch0Rkw4h&biw=3D1280&bih=3D841

You simply dip the roll in water, to activate it, slightly wringing the exc=
ess water out, and wrap, forming whatever contour, etc, to whatever shape =
you need. It's very easy. You can easily cut it with scissors, to stop a=
nd restart any wrapping, if need be.

You may not be able to purchase the rolls directly from a medical supply ou=
tlet, but maybe you can. You'd probably have to purchase a box of 10-12, =
rather than one or two rolls. Maybe your local orthopedist would sell you=
two 3" rolls. I would suppose 2 rolls would be enough. I see online pri=
ces are much lower than med supply outlets. An orthopedist may charge up to=
10X the online rate.

Sonny

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 10:49:15 PM UTC-5, [email protected]=
=20

> Not only is that table over the top gorgeous, it plenty damn sturdy. =20

Thanks. It is sturdy. That was one thing I paid attention to, regarding t=
he mortises' size and alignment, maintaining the squareness of my carving t=
hem. I had a mock tenon, I used as a test piece/guide. The through teno=
ns were easy enough, to make, and are a perfect match for the mortises. T=
he tenons slide in fairly easily, when nudged by hand and knee, yet lock ni=
ce and tight, when the keys are inserted. The issue with the extra tight k=
eys, on one end, may be there is a drip/run of finish (that I missed seeing=
), inside the key holes.

Sonny

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 5:03:34 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

> Minimum $15~20K add side benches for more $$

I did Google prices and thought in the range of $6-$8K, based on 2005 and 2=
007 posted prices. My nephew assessed it as you did, $15-$20K.

I do have more boards and root ball stock for benches, but I thought benche=
s would be too heavy. I have a set (12, 2 captain's chairs) of antique di=
ning chairs, salvaged from New Orleans (Katrina flood), that I thought to r=
efinish (lacquer) and upholster (leather & decor nails), but not sure the s=
tyle of these chairs would go well with this table. Once the chairs are d=
one, then I can better assess their mating to the table.

BTW, 4 more pics, taken with the camera (better detail), rather than the wi=
th phone (darker pics, less detail), have been posted: https://www.flickr.=
com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/

Today, since the Saints were playing poorly and no company came by, to visi=
t and watch the game, I worked on the coat rack. Got the sides and seat a=
lmost assembled. Should finish that assembly and have the back done tomor=
row, then sanding. Hopefully, by this weekend, it'll be stained(?) and fi=
nished and ready for the (woodworking/Saints fans) kids, Ian (8) and Braxto=
n (9)), to install the fleur-de-lis coat hooks.

Sonny

On 9/15/2015 7:33 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/14/2015 9:12 PM, krw wrote:
>> On 14 Sep 2015 19:23:24 GMT, Puckdropper
>
>>> Sometimes higher prices do improve the appeal. They did studies with
>>> wines, and found the high priced wines were perceived to taste better
>>> when they told the people it was a high priced wine, but worse when not
>>> told.
>
>> The Seagrams effect.
>
> Coors beer was marketed out west as a cheap beer. They were on the
> verge of bankruptcy when they re-labled the beer as a premium, raised
> the price and the exact same beer became popular, and was soon marketed
> across the country.
>
> I call this the Coors effect, and I think for this group, you could call
> it the Festool effect.
>
Ignorance is bliss uh Jack?

On 9/17/2015 7:50 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:17:49 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> OK, maybe I misunderstood you. If he compares how the tool performs
>> and holds up yes. Not by look at this bearing vs that bearing. A
>> bearing, or what ever, that out lasts the useful life of tool is
>> perfectly fine. A bearing that "would' out last the tool 3 times over
>> is of no advantage.
>
> the designers would not usually specify a bearing with a huge MTBF as
> they cost more
> but i do not know if there are bearings with 20 year life expectancy
> or if there are bearings with a 35 year life expectancy
>
>> It typically meets your expectations, and then some. It is a well
>> thought out tool that complements and works hand in hand with other
>> tools in the line up. Dust collection is spectacular.
>
> for my use dust collection is not important but i can understand that
> if you are doing finish work it might matter a lot indoors at a customer
> location

I used to subscribe to that ideal, I created mountains of saw dust. Now
days with the Festool vac and my DC I have very little that gets away.
The beauty is that I don't have to chance clothes every time I stop to
go inside to eat. And or I don't have to worry about tracking dust
into the house. Or.....have as many allergy problems. It's nice staying
relatively clean.




>
>> I would find the bearing being Chinese disputable. I don't doubt
>> that the guy mentioned or even showed a Chinese bearing but I'm not
>> too sure the guy was being entirely truthful. Imagine that. ;~)
>
> i never got the impression that he was lying
> he seems to be a straight shooter
> that does not mean he has no agenda but i do not think that he is
> falsifying his tear-downs

Well you know what they say about the internet. If it is there it has
to be true. BonJour.




>
>> Some of them are... The OHV motors are better than the OHC motors.
>> The OHV are commercial grade and "expensive".
>
> most of the non-honda motor equipment i see for sale seem to have
> carburetor problems
> maybe because they vibrate so much
> the honda always seem to run smoother


Don't get me wrong, a Honda engine would always be a perk but not all
Honda engines are created equal these days.

On 9/18/2015 5:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
>> cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
>> the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
>> be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
>> But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
>> the Festool.
>
> But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything
> else? How can it be any other factor?

The blade is very important and Festool provides and has a nice
selection of premium blades. But a great blade can not make better a
tool that is not built for accuracy.
How many times have we seen the comment that the Forrest WWII does not
improve the cut over my "brand X" blade. The set up is wrong or the TS
is simply not capable of producing a better cut regardless of the blade.

The big deal that we/I have found is that with the Festool saw you can
start a cut, stop, lift the saw, replace the saw, start the saw, plunge
and continue cutting with out being able to tell where you stopped and
started. Many circular saws are simply designed to cut relatively
straight. I have seen several, I own two, that you can move the blade
back and forth, in and out towards the motor housing and that causes a
cut that is not flat. It's the tolerances built into the Festool track
saw that puts it above the non track circular saws.

If you have noticed, most all of the major saw makers are offering track
saws and all of them are unique. I am certain those saws have higher
build quality tolerances otherwise they could simply offer a track to
work with one of their existing saws.

And it is not just the quality of a straight line cut. It is also the
quality and accuracy of a plunge cut. The accuracy of being able to
start and stop precisely where you want in a plunge cut. Granted these
are a lot of features that many may not ever need but with more options
come more opportunities. I never dreamed that I would be using my
Domino 10 more than I used my biscuit cutters. If you are anal with your
precision the results show.

These saws are absolutely not for every one nor does it make sense for
everyone to buy one. BUT if you want to save time, get premium cuts, or
just appreciate a top quality product I don't think you will be
dissatisfied.





>
>
>>
>> If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
>> 75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
>> and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.
>
> Ouch!
>
>>
>> If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
>> 55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
>> and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.
>
> Oucher!
>
>
>

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 3:15:34 AM UTC-5, G. Ross wrote:

> I'm sorry, but it would not fit in my house. Gorgeous! I couldn't=20
> visualize it until now.
>=20
> --=20
> GW Ross


Thanks. I don't always describe or present things for best understanding.=
It was a design in progress, to some extent, so even I was unsure of the=
final outcome.

Initially, I had considered the table for the camp, with a vague idea of wh=
at it would look like.... basic table, despite being walnut. The more I t=
hought of design ideas and worked on the individual boards, and later using=
the root ball for leg units, the better the design concept developed.

Now, I'm not so sure I want to put it at the camp.

Sonny

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 5:43:12 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>=20
> >
> > Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
> > cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only
> > the accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might
> > be the answer and take some sting out it being abused.
> > But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend
> > the Festool.
>=20
> But honestly Leon - isn't that more a matter of the blade, than anything=
=20
> else? How can it be any other factor?

Mike, there is MUCH more to a straight, smooth cutting track saw than just =
the blade. The blade is very important, but you can get a lot of nearly pe=
rfect blades these days just about anywhere. So while you need one, that i=
sn't really an issue.

The key to a perfect cutting track saw is the arbor alignment. The arbor i=
n the saw has to be PERFECTLY perpendicular to the track. That means it mu=
st be perfectly perpendicular to the housing on the saw. Then the track mu=
st hold the saw at a perfect 90 degrees (with the arbor/blade assembly in a=
lignment) while cutting.

I have used several straight edge systems over the years, and found out tha=
t the quality of my long sheet rips diminished over a period of time when u=
sing my circular saw. I blamed it on the blade, but still got tooth marks =
on my rips. Checked the straight edges for true, and rarely found one out =
of whack. Decided it was the clamps I was using, thought they were slippin=
g. Upgraded clamps... nope. =20

When one of my circular saws slipped out of my hand and I dropped it on the=
concrete, I noticed I was having problems cutting. I got out my speed squ=
are, and hitting right on the edge of table, the impact bent the table abou=
t 1/16" out of true 90 degrees with the blade. A couple of taps and it cor=
rected it some, but started me to thinking.

So I used a brand new saw with an old blade on it to rip some plywood. Wor=
ked great. Deduced it was the saw itself as the most important factor. =20

Later, I used a friend of mine's track saw with my straight edge and his sa=
w cut better using my straight edge than it did with his cheap track saw.

The last time I bought a big circular saw, I bought three of their most pow=
erful and well built Makitas at HD. I took them home, got out my straight =
edge and tried each of them on the track to see which gave the best cut. E=
ach cut differently, and to Makita's credit two did really well. I kept th=
e best and returned the other two. Now, no one TOUCHES that saw but me, so=
it is never out of alignment.

That being said, it is only a near cousin to Karl's Festool system. I saw =
that a few years ago (and a couple of mods he made to it) and he showed me =
the quality of the cuts he was making. Yes, from time to time I can do tha=
t same quality with my Makita setup. But... Karl and Leon can setup in les=
s than half the time, and make that same quality of cut EVERY time. I mean=
every single one. I am a "site" carpenter/woodworker, and I knew after se=
eing the Festool and its end product, that was a tool they make that is wor=
th every penny. Most table saws don't give that kind of quality, flawless =
cut. And the ease of setup... wow. I think of all the time I have to use =
to get my setup just right, and it is OK for me now because I don't do the =
same type of work that Karl and Leon do. However, if I was making cabinets=
and fixtures, that would be the first tool I bought, and the Domino second=
.

Not all that cranked up about their drills, shop vacs, coffee cups and caps=
, but hey... different strokes for different folks.

Robert

=20

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 5:52:34 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> So when do you do the fork lift to compliment the table?

LOL. Actually, it's not so bad lifting and moving the table top, as one m=
ight suppose. Certainly no different than moving a side-by-side frig/free=
zer or a chest freezer. As is, it's difficult for two people to move or m=
anipulate. Flipping it, on the saw horses, is easy for two people. I hav=
e some furniture carts, that will be sufficient for rolling the top around.=
The other individual parts can be easily managed by one person.

Next project: I've started work on a coat rack/bench, for the camp, using=
some of the pecan from a fallen tree, at the farm. The initial idea, for =
the pecan, was to make headboards for the beds, and the headboards will eve=
ntually be made. These pecan boards have warped, really bad, so they won'=
t be planed and sanded, as the walnut has been.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/13581255313/in/photostream

Thanks Lew.
Sonny

On 9/18/2015 4:25 PM, Sonny wrote:
> On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>> I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for
>> that saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track
>> and systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and
>> the case is north of $70.
>>
>> I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that
>> is suspect about their comments.
>>
>> Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it
>> very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for
>> cutting.
>
> Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
> track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose
> I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

We will help yu remove some of the egg from your face when you buy one. ;~)

>
> I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something
> more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more
> accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't
> conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more
> convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there.
> A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there,
> and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application.
> I'd probably leave it there, permanently.

Something to consider, the Festool will produce cabinet saw quality
cuts. Do you need that or the accuracy of straight lines? If only the
accuracy of straight lines Grizzly offers a track saw that might be the
answer and take some sting out it being abused.
But if you want top of the line and quality cuts I highly recommend the
Festool.

Let me add a bit of buying strategy. If you are going to be ripping
sheets of 4x8 plywood you are going to also need to purchase an extra
length of track. The TS55 track saw comes with a 55" track, the TS75
track saw comes with a 75" track. To rip an 8' sheet you will need
about 10' of track. The 75" and the 55" tracks give you almost 11',
and you will need to buy 2 rail connectors, $36.

If you buy a TS55 track saw with 55" rail and add the connectors and a
75" rail you are going to pay $640 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $200 for the 75" rail, total $875.

If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

With the understanding that the TS55 needs an additional 75" rail and
the TS75 needs and additional 55" rail the difference between the two
saw set ups is only $40 more for the bigger TS 75 saw.

Just something to consider if you are thinking one saw over the other
and will need to make 96" or longer cuts.



>
> My only hesitancy is with others not taking good care of the tools,
> as I take care of them. If I'm not there to watch over them,
> they'll abuse stuff.... *if and when they decide to try to do
> something productive, **for a change.

The case that comes with the saw is very good and easy to deal with,
take the saw home with you. OTOH they could be abusing a $1500 TS.


Going a bit further, I recently had to replace my, all plastic, Stanley
saw horses. The picture shows my set up for cutting sheet goods with my
track saw and may be the only true example of something none of us
thought was possible, having too many clamps. I ended up buying a set
of Dewalt saw horses that have steel legs and pretty much plastic every
where else. I think you can figure out the set up which worked well
until one of the plastic legs on the saw horse buckled.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/20519288345/in/dateposted-public/

On 9/18/2015 5:08 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Sonny wrote:
>
>>
>> Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their
>> track saw, the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose
>> I've made my share of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.
>>
>> I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something
>> more convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more
>> accuracy, etc., especially with the work at the farm. I can't
>> conveniently bring a table saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more
>> convinced the track saw would do wonders for the ongoing work, there.
>> A circular saw is not always the best saw for applications, there,
>> and $750 is economical, in all respects, for the farm application.
>> I'd probably leave it there, permanently.
>>
>
> You're not so far from thoughts that I've had Sonny, but to be honest - I
> keep going back to the same thought - can't I get almost the same thing out
> of my circular saw and a saw guide (or whatever they call it...). You know
> what I mean - the sled you build such that your saw always cuts just like
> the Festool jig does - only it does not have the nice dust collection
> system. Huge difference in cost though. You can build your own for $10
> versus what the retail versions cost - Festool being the top of the heap,
> cost wise.
>
> Here's just one of many videos about these homemade jigs...
>
> http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,20808204,00.html
>
> Probably not as sophisticated as the retail versions, but for a lot of us -
> it's really all we need. And - it works. It will cut a straight line just
> as well as any of the expensive alternatives.
>

You can absolutely do that Mike and it does work well. Swingman and I
did that countless times with his Makita and a similar guide rail.
The problem is that many saws simply have slack tolerances. The blade
does not always spin in the same plane and you get a relatively
straight cut once you clear away all the tear out, especially if you are
cross cutting plywood. But relative straight is all dependent on
whether the blade moves side to side. This is not absolutely a problem
with all saws but I have seen many older saws that display this problem.
Additionally the Festool saw address the possibility of tear out on the
top of the cut. This is a real problem when cross cutting. The Festool
plunges safely mid panel with out having to lift the saw to start the
cut. And maybe not so important, the Festool saw is stellar with dust
control providing you have a vac and hose connected.
With most any home or shop built track you are going to need a couple of
clamps to hold the track in place. The Festool track stays in place
with out clamps if the surface is not covered with dust.

Now if you are simply cutting material to a workable size what you
suggest is a great way to go. Because Swingman and I sell a majority of
our work the old saying, time is money, kicks in. We found that the
Festool eliminates, in many instances, the need to re-cut the plywood
panels and that along with all the other features I mentioned really
speeds up production.

What Swingman and Nailshooter and I have been indicating over and over
is that a quality tool that was designed for the tradesman, you are
going to get results that you can sell whether you are a cabinet maker
or a fine furniture builder.

If time is important the Festool is going to be a good choice.

On 9/19/2015 7:16 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/18/2015 10:33 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> My wife bought me a broom for about $25. The last one lasted me 20
>> years. I could buy 4 of them for the cost of one Ridged, that would be
>> 4 times 20 years. Longer than I would live.
>
> Her broom doesn't suck as hard as my Ridgid vacuum, and it's hoses don't
> fit it either.
>
>> If you like the tools you buy fine. Don't knock something you know
>> little about. I don't really understand your obsession with trashing
>> Festool.
>
> I like some, don't like others. I don't obsess about any of them.
>
> I also don't trash Festools, I never once said they are trash. I don't
> even mind that they cost more than other tools, it's a marketing scheme
> that works well for them.


Huh... I think you could have fooled all of us on that.

AFFA marketing scheme goes, every single item that is sold has had some
consideration and a marketing scheme to determine a selling price.
Big deal.

On 9/18/2015 9:24 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/17/2015 3:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> You mostly see Ricar vacuum cleaners at dealer and repair shops that
>> mostly sell to cleaning companies. It is a commercial machine.
>> The real beauty is that it is quiet compared to others and is very light
>> weight. Probably 10~15 lbs.
>
> I worked in an office and used the janitors vacuum once to clean
> something I spilt. This thing was beat up to hell and back, cleaning
> many thousands of square feet a day for years. I was amazed at how this
> thing cleaned, and was super easy to push around. It was jaw dropping.
> Anyway, I don't recall the name, but at the time, I looked it up and
> the price was also jaw dropping, so my wife was stuck with the Hoover.:-)
>

Yeah the Ricar is north of $1000 now. I'm glad ours still works well
although for the past 8 years we have been using a Roomba vac. It
vacuums 5 days a week every week on the entire down stairs in the new
house. My wife uses the Ricar in a single carpeted room up stairs.

On 9/18/2015 5:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Leon:
>> >If you buy a TS75 track saw with 75" rail and add the connectors and a
>> >55" rail you are going to pay $750 for the saw, $36 for the connectors
>> >and $129 for the 55" rail, total $915.

> Oucher!

Paid a couple of hundred less in circa 2009.

But, let's see, $915/7 = $131.71 year or $10.50/month +/-

Just on the saw, and its components alone, I easily save 50+ times that
a month on the expenses that are not easily seen in the grand scheme of
things, but eat at your profit nonetheless - like clean-up costs, and
wear and tear/fuel on trips back to the shop to get a table saw quality
cut, repeatability, and those things that eat up time, like clamping.

That doesn't even take into account how much profit can be made with the
ability to quickly and easily make _repeatable_ quality cuts that can't
be done on a table saw, like angled cuts, and plunge cuts.

The devil is in the details, but so is the profit ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/18/2015 6:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> The blade is very important and Festool provides and has a nice
>> selection of premium blades. But a great blade can not make better a
>> tool that is not built for accuracy.
>> How many times have we seen the comment that the Forrest WWII does not
>> improve the cut over my "brand X" blade. The set up is wrong or the
>> TS is simply not capable of producing a better cut regardless of the
>> blade.
>> The big deal that we/I have found is that with the Festool saw you can
>> start a cut, stop, lift the saw, replace the saw, start the saw,
>> plunge and continue cutting with out being able to tell where you
>> stopped and started. Many circular saws are simply designed to cut
>> relatively straight. I have seen several, I own two, that you can
>> move the blade back and forth, in and out towards the motor housing
>> and that causes a cut that is not flat. It's the tolerances built
>> into the Festool track saw that puts it above the non track circular
>> saws.
>
> That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I never really paid any or
> enough attention to the stability of the common circular saw blade.
>



Something that I for got to mention. I think it was Christmas time
2008. Karl sent me a picture of his new Track saw. We went to see them
on our weekly get together and he and I went out to his shop. I looked
at it, touched it, maybe even smelled it. LOL

Anyway he cut a scrap piece of wood to show me what to push, what to
pull, and how the riving knife came down with the blade and then he
stepped aside to let me make a test "cross cut" in a piece of plywood.
I hate to say this but it seems like yesterday. I set the saw on the
track, pushed the plunge release, pulled the trigger, pushed down to
plunge the blade, and pushed the saw about 6". I stopped and I think I
said daaaamn. That was all it took to see and feel the difference in
this saw and and any other circular saw that I have used.

I can only say it is a slippery slope. I think Karl may have said
daaamn when he saw a kitchen that we had built and installed and that I
had finished sanding with my Festool sanders and vac. He got those
sanders too. LOL He is behind in score, 1 Domino and 1 drill. ;~)

On 9/18/2015 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/17/2015 1:18 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I bought my wife a Ricar America vacuum cleaner. Expensive and appears
>> to be cheaply made. I bought that in 1991. that thing still performs
>> like it was new and most manufacturers have copied the concept.
>
> My wife bought me a wet/dry Shop Vac around 1976. That thing got a lot
> of use, and still works the same as the day I got it. The problem with
> that thing is it makes your ears bleed. It's the _only_ tool I wear ear
> muffs with, that includes chainsaws, air hammers and routers.
>
> Last Christmas My kids got me a new Ridged 6 amp 14 gal model for Xmas.
> It was around $100, I don't need ear muffs with it at all and if it
> sucked any harder it would be hard to use. It came with a bunch of
> attachments, and all my old 2 1/2" hoses/attachments fit it perfectly.
>
> I could buy 6 of them for the cost of one Festool. If it lasts as long
> as the shop vac, that would be 6 times 40 years. The only feature I
> wished it had was a auto wind for the cord, like my wife's Hoover has.
> That would make it perfect.


My wife bought me a broom for about $25. The last one lasted me 20
years. I could buy 4 of them for the cost of one Ridged, that would be
4 times 20 years. Longer than I would live.

If you like the tools you buy fine. Don't knock something you know
little about. I don't really understand your obsession with trashing
Festool.

On 9/11/2015 11:06 PM, Sonny wrote:
> A few issues:
> 1) The keys on one end are too tight. I can hammer them in, but I prefer not to. I want them snug, but not too tight. I'll work on them later. Things fit, correctly, two weeks ago... might be wood movement?
> 2) One brace, under the top, is out of alignment by 1/4". I'll tweak it later. 3) One corner of the table is 1/4" higher than the others. It may be the "drapes" under the foot, trash on the floor (under drape), may be my shop floor is not level, or a combo of all.
>
> Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.
>
> No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.
>
> Kinna cramped space, for better pics.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/

Cher, that's not woodworking, that's art!

Gorgeous!!

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/20/2015 3:20 PM, Leon wrote:

> $800 with insurance??? What was wrong with her?

Pet insurance paid $560 of that ...

Most of that was finding out what she didn't have, pancreatitis, bowel
obstruction, etc. Symptoms came on in the space of 20 minutes - tremors,
heavy panting, and yelped when you tried to pick her up.

Never did get a definitive answer, but it took a couple of days for her
to get back to normal.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/17/2015 10:28 AM, Jack wrote:

> Did Festool suddenly change their pricing structure to more accurately
> reflect the true value of the tools, or are you just being fatuous?

The _true value_ of any equipment/tool used in business is it's cost
effectiveness.

Bought first Festool (starting with a TS-75) in 2009, and collectively
they have played a big part in well over $300k in sales in just the
shop/cabinetry part of my business alone during that period ... making
them the most _cost effective_ brand of tools I've ever owned.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/17/2015 3:58 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:05:31 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> Seems is correct. I would suggest that the parts he focused on don't
>> need to be as toughly built as he leads you to believe.
>
> that is why i think he should do comparison test with the competition

OK, maybe I misunderstood you. If he compares how the tool performs and
holds up yes. Not by look at this bearing vs that bearing. A bearing,
or what ever, that out lasts the useful life of tool is perfectly fine.
A bearing that "would' out last the tool 3 times over is of no advantage.


>
>> If it breaks or gets left in the rain or is left and lost it is more
>> easily replaced. On the flip side the guy that purchases and uses
>
> i had considered this and it is true
>
>> Maybe, I don't recall which of the two sizes he was taking apart, I
>
> do not know either but it was $1000
>
>> and Swingman both own the larger of the two saws and I can probably
>> speak for him that neither of us have any problems or regret the
>> purchase. And again, these saws have been around for decades and
>> still have one of the best warranties in the industry. What we think
>> matters may not matter at all.
>
> it must matter to some as festool seems to be doing well

It typically meets your expectations, and then some. It is a well
thought out tool that complements and works hand in hand with other
tools in the line up. Dust collection is spectacular.


>
>> Being German designed and manufactured in Germany with quality parts
>> probably has a lot more to do with pricing than the illusion of
>> better. Festool has been around for a relative long time and sold
>> mostly to the trades. They were not inexpensive then nor now. I
>> don't believe that their pricing is a recent scheme.
>
> it may also reflect the true cost because it is made by people getting
> paid western wages
> although i recall the bearings were chinese

I would find the bearing being Chinese disputable. I don't doubt that
the guy mentioned or even showed a Chinese bearing but I'm not too sure
the guy was being entirely truthful. Imagine that. ;~)



>
>> The dirt wen straight from the hose into the bag. The motor/impeller
>> creates a vacuum inside the air sealed bag chamber. Air goes through
>> the bag and exits through a foam filter and then through a charcoal
>> filter and then past the motor/impeller. I'm sure that there are
>> many made like this now but it was pretty unique 25 years ago.
>
> i got my hoover in the 90's i think and it does this
> this is not novel at all
> the electrolux horizontal canister did the same from 60's or 70's
>
> it did not have charcoal filters though because we were not so delicate
> than
>
>
>> Another example of an item priced high are Honda lawn mowers. I paid
>
> honda motors are good

Some of them are... The OHV motors are better than the OHC motors. The
OHV are commercial grade and "expensive".

My dad traded a 10 year old Honda mower with the OHV motor and I was
shocked that they gave him $200 trade in. He bought the OHC model and I
was not impressed. It has been in the shop for idle issues numerous
times however that is mostly because of the California emissions that
all Hondas have to pass.

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 9:02:33 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

> The _true value_ of any equipment/tool used in business is it's cost=20
> effectiveness.

Well said, and completely on target.

When I am working at a homeowner's house that is a hobby guy, they are in o=
ne of two camps. They either have really cheap tools, if any, or they are =
collectors that enjoy using really expensive tools. Nothing wrong with tha=
t.

But in business, I find it best to fit the tool to the job. If it is a too=
l that I will use a lot and demands a certain level of performance, I will =
pay to get what I want. About 18 years ago I bought a DeWalt 10" miter saw =
and paid $225 for it. Competing saws of lesser quality were around $100 le=
ss (remember how long ago this was). So why the DeWalt? More adjustments =
to get it tuned to a perfect cut, and a better build quality than most, and=
a bigger motor. The key seller was the movable, hardened stainless steel =
miter detent ring which allowed me to tune the saw to the last hair.

Just last month, the saw handle broke. The rest of the saw is fine, but the=
replacement handle is about 25% of the cost of a new saw. Strangely, this=
saw can be had for about the same price these days as it was so long ago. =
When it broke, I sat and thought how many thousands of feet of molding it =
has cut, how many jobs it had been to, and how many times it had been used =
work other than trim. So with almost 20 years under its belt (I will find =
a way to fix the handle)paying almost double for that saw seems a wise choi=
ce.

Same with my old Makita 14.4 drill that I use to hang cabinets or do anythi=
ng else that requires a lot of driving power. I paid about $300 for that d=
rill with two batteries around 20 years ago. It has helical cut bronze gea=
rs in the transfer case, carbide lined chuck jaws, and as the Hitachi rep t=
old me at the time, their best "super duty" trigger. To this day, when I n=
eed to rely on drive power and performance I take that drill to the job and=
put it back to work. =20

The other side of the coin is that I have now joined the Ryobi nation. I b=
ought a tool bag full of tools and for my small repairs I have been delight=
ed with my purchase. For $125 bucks at the sale you got a drill (good dril=
l!), light, recip saw, and circular saw. The batteries that came with it a=
ren't very good, but my electrician tipped me that at Christmas time and ar=
ound Father's Day they have their best battery at 2 for 1 pricing. So now =
I have the set with 4 batteries for $225.

First project for the set: cut hole in roof of a house to run bathroom vent=
ing out of the attic to bring it up to city code. Used the flashlight in t=
he attic to locate the area. Used the drill to punch a small locator hole =
in the roof (from inside the attic) between the rafters. Got on the roof, =
and drilled a larger hole to fit the recip saw blade into. Used the recip =
saw to cut the round hole. Mounted the vent pipe, took the flashlight in t=
he attic with the drill and attached the flex to the pipe jack. I had every=
thing I needed in the bag.

I was pretty happy with that. I will <<easily>> get $225 of utility out of=
that set. That being said, I haven't used the flashlight since, the recip=
saw only a couple of times, and the circular saw about once a week on a jo=
b.

Those tools will never replace my Makita 14.4 drill, my wayyy too expensive=
Makita circular saw (never goes to the job and only I use it), nor other t=
ools like them such my favorite routers.

Agreeing with you Karl, finding he exact fit of price/utility/performance i=
s the real key to what a tool is worth. Excepting you and Leon whom I know=
both use your Festool(s)extensively and constantly, I know of no one else =
that does. How can people blather on about the >>value<< of any tool, espe=
cially tools like Festool, when they use them around the house on a weekend=
? How many people put their high end tools to any kind of real use? How m=
any know what it is like to rely on your tools to make a living day in and =
day out?

Personally, I don't think most people are qualified to asses the overall va=
lue of a tool. If they want to qualify their opinion with "in my experienc=
e" or "it wouldn't be worth it to me", then that's OK. Festool, Metabo, La=
mello, Lie Nieson, etc., aren't for everyone. But if they want to slam som=
ething like Festool simply because as casual tool users they don't see the =
value of the tool to themselves, then their opinion has no validity because=
they don't have the background or experience to render a valid opinion.

Robert

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 9:18:03 AM UTC-5, Markem wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/
>
> It looks great Sonny. How heavy is it is what I was wondering to
> myself and then took it ridiculous thinking you might want to
> reinforce the floor were it is going.

Thanks. The top is heavy, maybe 250 lbs., 300 lbs might be stretching it. The whole base may weigh 175 lbs, maybe 200 lbs. The leg units' footprint is 39" wide.

I, alone, can carry/move the individual parts of the base. It'll take at least 3, probably 4 people to comfortably carry the table top.

Sonny

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 4:28:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

> I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for that=20
> saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track and=20
> systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and the case is=
=20
> north of $70.
>=20
> I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that is=20
> suspect about their comments.
>=20
> Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it very=
=20
> well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for cutting.

Ya know, the more you guys speak of, not just Festool, but their track saw,=
the more I think I'd benefit with one. Aside, I suppose I've made my sha=
re of snide remarks, jokingly, relating to Festool.

I often use a circular saw and there are times I wish I had something more =
convenient for a better job, a better cutting method, more accuracy, etc., =
especially with the work at the farm. I can't conveniently bring a table =
saw to the farm, and I'm becoming more convinced the track saw would do won=
ders for the ongoing work, there. A circular saw is not always the best s=
aw for applications, there, and $750 is economical, in all respects, for th=
e farm application. I'd probably leave it there, permanently.

My only hesitancy is with others not taking good care of the tools, as I ta=
ke care of them. If I'm not there to watch over them, they'll abuse stuff=
.... *if and when they decide to try to do something productive, **for a ch=
ange.

More rant: A set of decent saw horses, at the farm, would do wonders, also=
, and I'm sure would accommodate a track saw. The present saw horses were=
made by a nephew and are pitifully inadequate: Poor construction and 20" =
tall. What was he thinking?!! Sometimes, the woodworking sense, I try t=
o instill in them, just doesn't seem to be getting through. But, at least =
his efforts were a try, at saw horseing.

Sonny=20

OK, I have been away for a few days and have to confess that I was wondering how our table turned out.

Spectacular!!

What a nice piece of art you turned out, Sonny. Not a remote chance that would turn up at the hunting camp... not one. That is gorgeous and deserves to be a center piece of someone's home. Probably a pretty good sized home... :^)

Great job.

Robert

On 9/17/2015 5:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> I remember that, mostly because Festool does not charge $1000 for that
>> saw. The bigger corded one is $750.00 including a 75" track and
>> systainer case. Bought separately the 75" track is $200 and the case
>> is north of $70.
>>
>> I find that when someone exaggerates the price this is not all that is
>> suspect about their comments.
>>
>> Either way it is a fine saw and system. With its quality of cut it
>> very well could replace or put off the need to buy a quality TS for
>> cutting.
>>
>
> Just out of curiosity, have you experienced a kickback yet with the track
> saw? How does it handle it?
>
> Puckdropper
>

You know, absolutely not. I have only used it on the track and that
greatly reduces the chance of kick back. That fact along with the fact
that it has a riving knife/splitter that plunges down as you plunge the
blade, no pinching the blade. That said if you must prevent the saw
from moving backwards there is a shoe on board that mounts to the track,
it prevents the saw from moving backwards as you plunge into the surface
of the wood. This is handy when starting a cut from sonewhere other
than the edge/outside of the board/panel.

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 10:43:25 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
> On 9/12/2015 11:47 AM, Sonny wrote:
>
> > My nephew says it's too nice for the camp. I'll keep it for a while, at least.
> > Not sure where it will end up. I do need to get it out of the shop, though.
> < My kitchen-dining room is 20X40, so I'll likely stash it there, for
> the time being.
>
> That's a gorgeous table Sonny. People with loads of money pay huge sums
> for that type of table to stick in their $15 million dollar summer log
> "cabins". I suspect the more your charge for it the better they like
> it. I've seen them often on "Epic log Homes" I believe.
>
>
> --
> Jack
> Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
> http://jbstein.com

Thanks Jack. My nephew says I should sell it. Not sure what price to place on it, though. I haven't really considered selling it. I would suppose a matching set of chairs would need to go along with it, for a sale item.

Right now, it's not a dining table, but a large semi-shiny dust collector, in the shop.

Sonny

On 9/18/2015 9:36 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

>
> Agreed. But my agreement is based completely on my needs, and what I'm
> willing to put up with. I'm honestly not sure how well it would compare to
> any other vaccum as a dust collection device. I'm sure it would do better
> than nothing, but right now - I use nothing, so it's all speculation in my
> mind.
>


LOL, FWIW the Festool has two relative large HEPA filters the pretty
much keep it all inside. Actually the inside of the VAC leading to
those filters stays pretty dust free.

Probably 20 years ago we agreed to see a Rainbow demonstration. Jeez
what a complicated messy vacuum.
Anyway the salesman wanted to compare the Rainbow to our Ricar.

So the smoke and mirrors demonstration started. Both his and ours
sucked and held his bowling ball, even score.

He asked me to vacuum a section of carpet and go over it 10 times. Then
he places a black cloth mid hose on his to act as a filter and vacuumed
over the same spot 10 times more. There was dust on the black cloth.
Rainbow 1, Ricar 0.
I asked to see another black cloth and did the same with the hose on our
vacuum. I re-vacuumed the same spot 10 more times and we examined the
black cloth. Rainbow 0, Ricar, 1

His next bag of tricks was to turn out the lights and he truned on a
bright light directed near the exhaust on the Rainbow. Just a wee bit
of dust was seen floating in the air. He did the same with our Ricar
and said see how much dust is floating in the air. I said no, he took
another look and pointed the light is several directions around our vac.
Humm, must be something wrong with my light. I said goodbye.

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 7:05:03 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:

> That is some hunk of wood Mister!
>=20
> -Mike-


Yes it is. When I milled the tree, the boards were so nice, I didn't want=
to shorten them. I knew the table would end up being hefty, but for a one=
-time kind of project (maybe), I thought I could compromise. The keyed de=
sign allows for easy disassembly, into smaller parts, except for the top.

I always did like the more rustic/primitive and robust construction style. =
In my later years, some of those heavy projects became too much to handle=
. The design ideas, for this table, gradually developed toward that bulki=
ness, heaviness, again.

Whomever inherits it will suffer with the bulk, etc. For me, it was a fun =
build, but I am also pleased with how it turned out.

Sonny =20

On 9/18/2015 7:03 PM, Leon wrote:

> I can only say it is a slippery slope. I think Karl may have said
> daaamn when he saw a kitchen that we had built and installed and that I
> had finished sanding with my Festool sanders and vac. He got those
> sanders too. LOL He is behind in score, 1 Domino and 1 drill. ;~)

What I need is more shop space. A Domino takes up a lot less room than
my Multi-Router, but I'm fond of the damned thing.

One of these days that will be the tipping point...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/13/2015 10:43 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 9/12/2015 11:47 AM, Sonny wrote:
>
>> My nephew says it's too nice for the camp. I'll keep it for a while,
>> at least.
>> Not sure where it will end up. I do need to get it out of the shop,
>> though.
> < My kitchen-dining room is 20X40, so I'll likely stash it there, for
> the time being.
>
> That's a gorgeous table Sonny. People with loads of money pay huge sums
> for that type of table to stick in their $15 million dollar summer log
> "cabins". I suspect the more your charge for it the better they like
> it. I've seen them often on "Epic log Homes" I believe.
>
>

There is a small furniture store in Brenham, TX that sells this style
furniture. The big difference is that the furniture is not as pretty as
if they were built with walnut. They almost exclusively use Ipe. It is
an effort to even move one of the table side seating benches.
Not to mention, I estimate, about 4 times heavier than walnut.

On 9/13/2015 10:57 AM, Sonny wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 10:43:25 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
>> On 9/12/2015 11:47 AM, Sonny wrote:
>>
>>> My nephew says it's too nice for the camp. I'll keep it for a while, at least.
>>> Not sure where it will end up. I do need to get it out of the shop, though.
>> < My kitchen-dining room is 20X40, so I'll likely stash it there, for
>> the time being.
>>
>> That's a gorgeous table Sonny. People with loads of money pay huge sums
>> for that type of table to stick in their $15 million dollar summer log
>> "cabins". I suspect the more your charge for it the better they like
>> it. I've seen them often on "Epic log Homes" I believe.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jack
>> Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
>> http://jbstein.com
>
> Thanks Jack. My nephew says I should sell it. Not sure what price to place on it, though. I haven't really considered selling it. I would suppose a matching set of chairs would need to go along with it, for a sale item.
>
> Right now, it's not a dining table, but a large semi-shiny dust collector, in the shop.
>
> Sonny
>
Minimum $15~20K add side benches for more $$

On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 12:11:05 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> OK, I have been away for a few days and have to confess that I was wondering how our table turned out.
>
> Spectacular!!
>
> What a nice piece of art you turned out, Sonny. Not a remote chance that would turn up at the hunting camp... not one. That is gorgeous and deserves to be a center piece of someone's home. Probably a pretty good sized home... :^)
>
> Great job.
>

Thanks Robert. Yeah, I am more than pleased with the results. Can't go wrong with walnut.

And thanks for your and other's input regarding finishing.

Sonny

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:06:52 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>A few issues:
>1) The keys on one end are too tight. I can hammer them in, but I prefer not to. I want them snug, but not too tight. I'll work on them later. Things fit, correctly, two weeks ago... might be wood movement?
>2) One brace, under the top, is out of alignment by 1/4". I'll tweak it later. 3) One corner of the table is 1/4" higher than the others. It may be the "drapes" under the foot, trash on the floor (under drape), may be my shop floor is not level, or a combo of all.
>
>Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.
>
>No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.
>
>Kinna cramped space, for better pics.
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/

It looks great Sonny. How heavy is it is what I was wondering to
myself and then took it ridiculous thinking you might want to
reinforce the floor were it is going.

Sonny wrote:
> A few issues:
> 1) The keys on one end are too tight. I can hammer them in, but I
> prefer not to. I want them snug, but not too tight. I'll work on
> them later. Things fit, correctly, two weeks ago... might be wood
> movement?
> 2) One brace, under the top, is out of alignment by 1/4". I'll
> tweak it later. 3) One corner of the table is 1/4" higher than the
> others. It may be the "drapes" under the foot, trash on the floor
> (under drape), may be my shop floor is not level, or a combo of all.
>
> Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.
>
> No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.
>
> Kinna cramped space, for better pics.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/
>
> Sonny

That is some hunk of wood Mister!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Sonny wrote:
> A few issues:
> 1) The keys on one end are too tight. I can hammer them in, but I prefer not to. I want them snug, but not too tight. I'll work on them later. Things fit, correctly, two weeks ago... might be wood movement?
> 2) One brace, under the top, is out of alignment by 1/4". I'll tweak it later. 3) One corner of the table is 1/4" higher than the others. It may be the "drapes" under the foot, trash on the floor (under drape), may be my shop floor is not level, or a combo of all.
>
> Table top is 11' 3.75" long, 47" wide (at widest), 30" high.
>
> No dancing girls, yet, but I did fix a drink, after assembly.
>
> Kinna cramped space, for better pics.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/with/20715730554/
>
> Sonny

That's quite a piece! Really creative legs too. Do you get to keep it?

Bill