The thread on how much to charge for your work inspired me to write this.
Had a customer that wanted me to make a "batch" of pitman arms for him, he
had the local Amish cut the wood to size so that all that was need was to
run the wood through the planner to smooth up the sides, cut to length and
drill 10 holes. I gave him a price of $3 on each finished arm, figuring
about 10 min work on each arm (this is set up and run repeat operations no
real labor or time). When I got the wood, cut to size meant a plank of
warped lumber filled with knots. I had to rip to size, cut out bad areas,
plane at least 6 runs through the planer on one side and 1 each on the other
3 sides. time is now 20 mins. per arm. Moral is to look at the job before
you take it never accept sight unseen. Side note the reason the Amish guy
did not finish the work is that he got sick and couldn't meet the contract
dead line.
On 4 Jul 2004 14:53:11 -0700, [email protected] (Fred the Red Shirt)
wrote:
>"Kevin Singleton" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Sounds to me like the terms of the contract had changed. If the Amish guy
>> didn't do his part, how can you be expected to do your part for the quoted
>> price? You should have re-negotiated. If you didn't, that's your fault,
>> and you didn't get rooked, you cheated yourself.
>>
>> In business, you've gotta be a man. Unless, of course, you're a woman.
>> Then you've just gotta be fairly butch.
>>
>
>OTOH, despite the problems caused by another subcontractor, which
>were neither his fault nor the customer's, he delivered the product
>he product he promised for the price he promised. Off-hand, that
>customer would be a fool to not send him as much of his future business
>as possible--as well as throwing in some extra money for this
>job well done.
>
>I agree that he didn't have any obligation to do the extra work for
>no extra money, but the fact that he did is to his credit and it's
>about damn time people who make the extra effort to do quality work
>got recognized for it.
This was a business transaction, not an altruistic endeavor. The
material delivered to SSawdust was not in accordance with the initial
specification for the work she was doing. At this point, she needed to
make a decision; if the customer was important enough to her that doing
future business with that customer (or resulting word of mouth advertising
to other potential customers) would be an outcome of accepting the
substandard, misrepresented parts, then doing the work at the agreed-upon
price made good sense. At this point, she will also be more careful in
future dealings with the same customer and will not likely wind up
"buying-in" to more future business from said customer. However, she could
also have stated that the as-delivered material did not meet the specified
conditions agreed upon prior to delivery of the parts and indicated that a
change in scope for the work would result in a higher per-item cost to the
customer. The customer would then have been free to take that business
elsewhere (unlikely, given that I suspect very few other businesses would
charge him $18/hour for labor and tool use) or accept the new terms.
It's a tough lesson of business (big or small) that sometimes you aren't
going to make everybody happy.
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
> Somewhere out on the net there is a website selling 'Amish hand painted
> saws' featuring pastoral scenes from eastern PA. Aside from the fact
> that an Amishman wouldn't ruin a good tool by turning it into a crappy
> piece of art, representational art is forbidden to the Amish. If
> those saws are painted by Amish, they are painted by Amish who have
> literally sold their souls to some Yankees.
There's one in Middleburg, NY ( I think it was) that sells them,
or tries to, for ridiculous prices. The saws need resharpening
and a soak in paint thinner. I saw some nice Disstons (no sons)
in there and went ballistic. Embarrassed my wife and everything.
I doubt that the Amish had anything to do with it. The people
there didn't look Amish.
Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
If we're gonna applaud the martyrs, they'll have to stop whining, first.
Kevin
--
=====
"Fred the Red Shirt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I agree that he didn't have any obligation to do the extra work for
> no extra money, but the fact that he did is to his credit and it's
> about damn time people who make the extra effort to do quality work
> got recognized for it.
"Sweet Sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The thread on how much to charge for your work inspired me to write this.
When I truly and genuinely expect to make money on a job, I make sure
every tiny detail is in writing. Then, if something changes I can
renegotiate, stop, or keep going (accepting that my rate/profit margin
has just taken a hit). This nips regret, bitterness and resentment in
the bud.
Since I do mostly commissioned work for friends (who pay for the
lumber), my shop rate turns out to be miniscule, however my risk is
negligible. It's basically a gift in exchange for a small stipend to
further my hobby.
Humbly submitted,
O'Deen
"Sweet Sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I gave him a price of $3 on each finished arm, figuring
> about 10 min work on each arm (this is set up and run repeat operations no
> real labor or time). When I got the wood, cut to size meant a plank of
> warped lumber filled with knots.
First, the good news. It will never happen again will it?
I suspect there is more to the story than your customer told you. In my
industry, we often quote a job based on what the customer tells us about the
existing tooling. Every quote of that sort has a line that reads "Quote
tentative pending inspection of customer supplied tooling" That line has
saved out behind a couple of times. When the tooling arrives it is only two
cavities, not the four he said, or it is falling apart from abuse, or is for
an entirely different machine etc.
Ed
"CW" <no adddress@spam free.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You must do plastic.
>
Expandable polystyrene. Not as bad as the whores in injection molding, but
close.
Sounds to me like the terms of the contract had changed. If the Amish guy
didn't do his part, how can you be expected to do your part for the quoted
price? You should have re-negotiated. If you didn't, that's your fault,
and you didn't get rooked, you cheated yourself.
In business, you've gotta be a man. Unless, of course, you're a woman.
Then you've just gotta be fairly butch.
Kevin
--
=====
"Sweet Sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The thread on how much to charge for your work inspired me to write this.
> Had a customer that wanted me to make a "batch" of pitman arms for him, he
> had the local Amish cut the wood to size so that all that was need was to
> run the wood through the planner to smooth up the sides, cut to length and
> drill 10 holes. I gave him a price of $3 on each finished arm, figuring
> about 10 min work on each arm (this is set up and run repeat operations no
> real labor or time). When I got the wood, cut to size meant a plank of
> warped lumber filled with knots. I had to rip to size, cut out bad areas,
> plane at least 6 runs through the planer on one side and 1 each on the
other
> 3 sides. time is now 20 mins. per arm. Moral is to look at the job before
> you take it never accept sight unseen. Side note the reason the Amish guy
> did not finish the work is that he got sick and couldn't meet the contract
> dead line.
>
>
Kevin Singleton wrote:
> Sounds to me like the terms of the contract had changed. If the Amish guy
> didn't do his part, how can you be expected to do your part for the quoted
> price? You should have re-negotiated. If you didn't, that's your fault,
> and you didn't get rooked, you cheated yourself.
>
> In business, you've gotta be a man. Unless, of course, you're a woman.
> Then you've just gotta be fairly butch.
Why be butch when being a bitch serves just as well?
> Kevin
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Kevin Singleton" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sounds to me like the terms of the contract had changed. If the Amish guy
> didn't do his part, how can you be expected to do your part for the quoted
> price? You should have re-negotiated. If you didn't, that's your fault,
> and you didn't get rooked, you cheated yourself.
>
> In business, you've gotta be a man. Unless, of course, you're a woman.
> Then you've just gotta be fairly butch.
>
OTOH, despite the problems caused by another subcontractor, which
were neither his fault nor the customer's, he delivered the product
he product he promised for the price he promised. Off-hand, that
customer would be a fool to not send him as much of his future business
as possible--as well as throwing in some extra money for this
job well done.
I agree that he didn't have any obligation to do the extra work for
no extra money, but the fact that he did is to his credit and it's
about damn time people who make the extra effort to do quality work
got recognized for it.
--
FF
"Kevin Singleton" <[email protected]> WHINED in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> If we're gonna applaud the martyrs, they'll have to stop whining, first.
>
Please feel free to set a good example for us.
--
FF
"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<g3%[email protected]>...
>
> I wouldn't believe 'your' customer. There is NO WAY an Amish craftsman won't
> finish a job or meet a promised dead-line. Even if he is so ill that it
> would put an 'English' in the hospital, he will be working. If something
> happens that HE can't do the specifics, then one of his family will do the
> job, or even a neighbor. That is simply, 'Their' way.
That's a good point, though as one local farmer's wife pointed out
to me one time, just because a man is Amish doesn't mean he's honest.
One thought that occurred to me was that the pieces he received may
have been up to Amish standards. An Amishman won't plane a board if
it will work fine rough-cut, that would be proud. He won't throw away
a warped or knotty board if a warped or knotty board will work, that
would be wasteful. Amish women are permitted to make beautiful things
in the form of quilts, that seems to be pretty much the only art
the Amish permit for art's sake.
Somewhere out on the net there is a website selling 'Amish hand painted
saws' featuring pastoral scenes from eastern PA. Aside from the fact
that an Amishman wouldn't ruin a good tool by turning it into a crappy
piece of art, representational art is forbidden to the Amish. If
those saws are painted by Amish, they are painted by Amish who have
literally sold their souls to some Yankees.
More likely the painters became Amish the same way that my friend,
of Hungarian-American descent became a native American back when
he was making 'genuine Zuni Indian Jewelry'.
--
FF
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 4 Jul 2004 14:53:11 -0700, [email protected] (Fred the Red Shirt)
> wrote:
> > >
> >OTOH, despite the problems caused by another subcontractor, which
> >were neither his fault nor the customer's, he delivered the product
> >he product he promised for the price he promised. Off-hand, that
> >customer would be a fool to not send him as much of his future business
> >as possible--as well as throwing in some extra money for this
> >job well done.
> >
> >I agree that he didn't have any obligation to do the extra work for
> >no extra money, but the fact that he did is to his credit and it's
> >about damn time people who make the extra effort to do quality work
> >got recognized for it.
>
> This was a business transaction, not an altruistic endeavor. The
> material delivered to SSawdust was not in accordance with the initial
> specification for the work she was doing. At this point, she needed to
> make a decision; if the customer was important enough to her that doing
> future business with that customer (or resulting word of mouth advertising
> to other potential customers) would be an outcome of accepting the
> substandard, misrepresented parts, then doing the work at the agreed-upon
> price made good sense.
I think that [email protected] had more to consider than that.
> At this point, she will also be more careful in
> future dealings with the same customer and will not likely wind up
> "buying-in" to more future business from said customer.
I dunno if that is true or not. If I wanted to know, I'd ask
sweetsawdust.
> However, she could
> also have stated that the as-delivered material did not meet the specified
> conditions agreed upon prior to delivery of the parts and indicated that a
> change in scope for the work would result in a higher per-item cost to the
> customer. The customer would then have been free to take that business
> elsewhere (unlikely, given that I suspect very few other businesses would
> charge him $18/hour for labor and tool use) or accept the new terms.
>
> It's a tough lesson of business (big or small) that sometimes you aren't
> going to make everybody happy.
Aside from the caveats stated above, I'm not inclined to disagree with you.
However, should I be in a position to choose between buying from you
or buying from [email protected], I'll choose the latter, based
on a comparison of what he says he did, vs what what I infer you feel he
should have done.
--
FF
Mon, Jul 5, 2004, 11:02pm (EDT-3) [email protected]
(Fred=A0the=A0Red=A0Shirt) quoted
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
Who said:
<snip> The material delivered to SSawdust was not in accordance with the
initial specification for the work she was doing. <snip>
While Fred the Red Shirt said:
<snip> buying from you or buying from [email protected], I'll
choose the latter, based on a comparison of what he says he did, <snip>
Now I find that very interesting. One assumes Sweet Sawdust is
female, and the other assumes male.
I don't recall every seeing Sweet Sawdust specify gender. Never
even thought about it before. I admit, I am mildly curious now, but
can't say it matters, either way.
JOAT
Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous.
- Interesting Times
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:11:48 GMT, "Sweet Sawdust"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Now I find that very interesting. One assumes Sweet Sawdust is
>female, and the other assumes male.
>
> I don't recall every seeing Sweet Sawdust specify gender. Never
>even thought about it before. I admit, I am mildly curious now, but
>can't say it matters, either way.
>
>Sweet Sawdust is Male, Name comes from my business name and was "invented"
>by my wife who makes candy thus the sweet and my wood working thus sawdust.
>
>The original message was not meant to be whining but only instructive that
>you should look before you price your work. The customer is important only
>in that he is the only supplier of misc. machine parts in a 30 mile area and
>that when I take a job I finish it even if it costs me through my own
>stupidity, I feel that is only the honorable thing to do.
>
My apologies for the gender confusion (I think I mistook your pseudonym
with another contributor to the newsgroup who is female).
I really believe that you are beating yourself up for something that is
not your fault however. You were not stupid when you were told in what
condition the items being delivered to you were to be, they were
misrepresented to you. By not getting an agreement in writing, you were
exposed, but you can rest assured, especially given the fact that your
customer is a businessperson himself, that your customer knew what you had
agreed to and what you were expecting to get in terms of raw material --
especially since he told you why the components did not meet the condition
you were expecting. As I said before, I don't think there was any way he
was going to get anyone else to do the work you had offered to do for
$18/hour (10 minutes per piece). At no time was I suggesting that you not
finish a job you agreed to, however, I was suggesting that there is no
dishonor in pointing out the fact that the conditions of the job had
changed and that the price would change accordingly. Do you think that the
person with whom you were dealing would have accepted a loss on a
transaction with him had the situation been reversed, or would he have
politely told you something to the effect, "this is not in the condition I
had initially believed it would be in, therefore this will cost somewhat
more than we agreed upon"? I know it's easy to say this kind of thing from
afar, however, you are running a business and need to make enough to remain
in business.
Now I find that very interesting. One assumes Sweet Sawdust is
female, and the other assumes male.
I don't recall every seeing Sweet Sawdust specify gender. Never
even thought about it before. I admit, I am mildly curious now, but
can't say it matters, either way.
Sweet Sawdust is Male, Name comes from my business name and was "invented"
by my wife who makes candy thus the sweet and my wood working thus sawdust.
The original message was not meant to be whining but only instructive that
you should look before you price your work. The customer is important only
in that he is the only supplier of misc. machine parts in a 30 mile area and
that when I take a job I finish it even if it costs me through my own
stupidity, I feel that is only the honorable thing to do.
dave in fairfax <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
> > Somewhere out on the net there is a website selling 'Amish hand painted
> > saws' featuring pastoral scenes from eastern PA. Aside from the fact
> > that an Amishman wouldn't ruin a good tool by turning it into a crappy
> > piece of art, representational art is forbidden to the Amish. If
> > those saws are painted by Amish, they are painted by Amish who have
> > literally sold their souls to some Yankees.
>
> There's one in Middleburg, NY ( I think it was) that sells them,
> or tries to, for ridiculous prices. The saws need resharpening
> and a soak in paint thinner. I saw some nice Disstons (no sons)
> in there and went ballistic. Embarrassed my wife and everything.
> I doubt that the Amish had anything to do with it. The people
> there didn't look Amish.
>
Over on the OldToools list I heard tell of an auction where a couple
of Disston and Sons saws came sold for about $20 each. Then a couple
more of similar vitage and condition, except for having painted scenery
on it, sold for about $2 each. Probably took a lot of work to strip
them.
Oh well, hopefully the practice will have the unintended effect of
preserving some of history's greatest hand tools the same way that
some great artwork of the past was preserved by painting over it
with something else which shielded the underlying work from
environmental damage.
--
FF
Hey, Sweet -
I wouldn't believe 'your' customer. There is NO WAY an Amish craftsman won't
finish a job or meet a promised dead-line. Even if he is so ill that it
would put an 'English' in the hospital, he will be working. If something
happens that HE can't do the specifics, then one of his family will do the
job, or even a neighbor. That is simply, 'Their' way.
If you received improperly prepared material, it WASN'T because of the
Amish. Most likely your customer didn't want to pay the cost of preparation,
and you got stuck with doing ALL the work.
Chalk it up to 'experience', and vow never to be a 'sucker' again. Even a
short co-signed note, outlining what is to be done, and what is to be
presented {to you}, can ease your conscience when you have to say, "No deal,
Sport. THAT wasn't the order".
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
"Sweet Sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote ...
> The thread on how much to charge for your work inspired me to write this.
SNIP
Side note the reason the Amish guy did not finish the work is that he got
sick and couldn't meet the contract dead line.
>
Sun, Jul 4, 2004, 9:57pm (EDT+4) [email protected] (Ron=A0Magen) says:
Hey, Sweet -
I wouldn't believe 'your' customer. <snip>
My original thoughts on the original post weren't near so detailed,
but I vote for Ron's explanation.
JOAT
Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous.
- Interesting Times
You must do plastic.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Sweet Sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > I gave him a price of $3 on each finished arm, figuring
> > about 10 min work on each arm (this is set up and run repeat operations
no
> > real labor or time). When I got the wood, cut to size meant a plank of
> > warped lumber filled with knots.
>
>
> First, the good news. It will never happen again will it?
>
> I suspect there is more to the story than your customer told you. In my
> industry, we often quote a job based on what the customer tells us about
the
> existing tooling. Every quote of that sort has a line that reads "Quote
> tentative pending inspection of customer supplied tooling" That line has
> saved out behind a couple of times. When the tooling arrives it is only
two
> cavities, not the four he said, or it is falling apart from abuse, or is
for
> an entirely different machine etc.
> Ed
>
>
>
"Kevin Singleton" wrote in message
> In business, you've gotta be a man. Unless, of course, you're a woman.
> Then you've just gotta be fairly butch.
Not necessarily always the case. Once lived with a woman who started her own
risk management company (NOT agency) and it's still going. She had/has a
bigger set of balls than any businessman I've ever known, but far, far
removed from "butch" ... they disappeared at the appropriate time. Might've
still been there if it wasn't for the alcohol abuse that went with the
territory.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04