I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that at
right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move much.
That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For example, all our
toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3" wide lapped at
the corners.
Discussion is invited.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 11/20/2013 6:05 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
> still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
> expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that at
> right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
>
> Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move much.
> That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For example, all our
> toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3" wide lapped at
> the corners.
>
> Discussion is invited.
What are you calling a "lap joint"?
What many call lap joints these days are traditionally called "halving
joints", most common being what is traditionally known as a "half lap"
joint.
Halving joints are mostly moderate strength and generally require some
type of pinning to stand the test of time.
The modern vernacular, "rabbet joint", is actually a "lap joint", and
its moderate strength is reinforced by adding a pin of some type (Leon's
Domino drawers, etc), or a locking cut:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w7iQFW4hq8
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
"right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?"
**********************
They work because glue sticks. Oh really?
Trivial but true, lots of surface, lots of pull and twist resistance.
And even if the surfaces are not flat or the joint was poorly clamped, it still holds because some
of that surface has been "welded".
Moreover, to be sure, most laps are at right angles changing shape in conflict and they still hold because
of mechanics and the magic of glue. Make them too big & without a fastener, and they will creep and loosen.
I agree it is a surprise they last so long. A fastener, in my view, on occasion is called for. Make a gate that kids swing on and the connection may fail; add some steel and they won't bust it.
Lap the surfaces with a dovetail bit and gain some more interlock and easier assembly.
http://patwarner.com/images/dovetailed-lap.jpg
Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 07:05:44 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>
>> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
>> still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
>> expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that
>> at right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
>
> I think a lot of it is the sealing effect of the finish and the climate
> control in modern houses.
>
> Either dewaxed shellac or oil based polyurethane do a good job of
> retarding moisture exchange. And with a lot of houses having air
> conditioners, hunidifiers and or dehumidifers the seasonal humidity
> changes are almost nullified. And the glue itself seals the unfinished
> surfaces of the joint.
>
> Someone who's made lap joints for unfinished outdoor stuff, or who lives
> in an area with extreme humidity changes might have a different
> experience.
>
> I live in the west. Humidity is low in the summer and high in the
> winter, but the house heating in the winter lowers the indoor humidity
> quite a bit so the swing is lessened considerably.
Good point. Wood does not shrink or swell unless its moisture content
changes . Ship a piece of furniture cross country and movement becomes a
detrimental fact, as many furniture manufacturers have learned. Modern
furniture production is quite concerned with, and spends a lot of money
keeping factory/shop RH and wood EMC as close to 7.0 percent EMC and 35
percent RH as possible.
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)
On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 05:06:04 -0800 (PST), Sonny <[email protected]>
>When the boys left, I stuck it in the old shop and....
>It hasn't moved, since
Embed a radio in it and hang it on the wall. It might make a good
conversation piece.
On 11/21/2013 12:45 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> Yep, thinking back, my wife has a classical guitar with a Spanish
>> cedar top, and it seems to hold up well also.
>>
>> Recorded quite a few hammered dulcimers in my studio days ...
>> "sustain" is an understatement with that instrument. ;)
>
> Played an open mic last night at Toby Keith's I Love This Bar in Syracuse.
> Two guys came up while I was waiting in the wings to go on, and asked if I
> wanted a Bass and Drum back up. I almost said no, that I was all set to do
> it solo, and boy am I glad I did not say that! Turns out the bass player
> plays with the biggest rock band in this area, and is a serious long hair.
> Me - I've hardly got any damned hair left and this guy's hair is down to his
> belt. Played a 6 string bass and he knew how to play each one of those 6
> strings. He's a rocker and my stuff last night was some old Steve Goodman
> stuff, a Travis Van Zandt tune, and an original that was straight up
> country. Let me tell you - we rocked the freakin' joint! One of those
> great gigs where a few musicians get up and play together, who have never
> met, don't know the same music, and somehow, pull it off big time. Was one
> of the best times I've had in a long time. The bass player was glued to my
> left hand because he didn't know any of the music, but it didn't take him
> long to feel what to add in. Straight up country with some really rockin'
> bass can be a killer match.
>
> What does this have to do with woodworking and the availability of wood for
> luthiers? Not a damned thing!
>
> But - I did take my Taylor...
It only takes one of those magical musical moments to keep you playing
'til the next time it happens. ;)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:15:25 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
Re: List of woods & experience:
> > Spruce, maple, mahogany, walnut, ebony, rosewood, and in particular, Ho=
nduras mahogany are all woods that are extremely stable .... . You will rar=
ely see any other type of wood on a musical instrument.=20
> Nope ... it is experienced based, ....=20
25 or so yrs ago, several teenage nephews visited for a few summer weeks, b=
rought their guitars to jam, one or 2 for simple repairs, etc., etc. They =
asked about making a guitar from scratch.
I had an air dried sycamore log, so "we" decided to try carving a whole (si=
ngle unit) "guitar" from it. Got pretty far with carving the body, neck, r=
am's head headstock, hand planed 1/8" soundboard, etc., but never assembled=
/finished it. When the boys left, I stuck it in the old shop and....
It hasn't moved, since.
Sonny
On 11/20/2013 5:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but
>> I still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that
>> wood expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood
>> doing that at right angles to each other yet they remain nice and
>> solid. How come?
>> Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move
>> much. That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For
>> example, all our toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces
>> about 3" wide lapped at the corners.
>>
>> Discussion is invited.
>
> I'll throw out the thought that it's because the wood does not move at the
> joint. The glue successfully holds that joint together as a unit. This
> might be easier to see with edge glued boards. The boards may move some
> with varying conditions, across their width, just not at the joint where it
> is glued.
>
Plywood is just a huge sheet of lap joints. It seems to hold together OK.
RE: Subject
It's the glue and the geometery.
Glue provides the highest strength when glue is thin and loaded in
shear.
A half lap joint takes advantage of both those features.
SFWIW, a butt joint places the glue joint in tensile loading which is
why it is weaker than shear loaded joints such as the half lap.
Lew
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> Damned steel is going to rust though :)
>
Sometimes, that's considered a good thing. If the fastener is thick enough
(like a 16D nail), rust occuring on the fastener serves to lock it in
place. Of course, they do occasionally rust through, and that's a bad
thing.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Good point indeed, but not as good as we tend to think. Think about
> all of the glued together musical instruments that are shipped
> worldwide, furniture of differing qualities that are glued up and
> suffer the conditions of differing environments. There is far less
> movement than is often spoke of here. Not to say there is none, but
> often times there really is none. Look where stuff is manufactured,
> and look at where it ends up. We tend to make more of this movement
> thing in this newsgroujp than can actually be found in most real world
> situations.
>
> IKEA may me junk, but - how do they ship products around the world
> without 1/4" gaps? How about Martin guitars? Think about something
> as precise as that Martin... An extreme movement would be considered
> to be less than 1/8", and that is at the neck - over an almost 2'
> span. Look how all of those cross grain structures hold together to
> keep the body intact, the bracing intact, and the bridge intact.
> Certainly movement of far less than 1/8" would be catastrophic.
>
> So - I'm not aruging with the prevailing logic, but I am suggesting
> that we tend to apply that logic too universally, in the face of
> obvious eveidence.
>
Wouldn't a finish tend to retard the movement of moisture into and out of
the wood? If it's moisture changes causing the movement, and not
something else like temperature, then could the finish play a part in
allowing pieces to be transported with little difficulty?
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 11/21/2013 11:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> Yep, thinking back, my wife has a classical guitar with a Spanish
>> cedar top, and it seems to hold up well also.
>>
>> Recorded quite a few hammered dulcimers in my studio days ...
>> "sustain" is an understatement with that instrument. ;)
>
> Played an open mic last night at Toby Keith's I Love This Bar in Syracuse.
> Two guys came up while I was waiting in the wings to go on, and asked if I
> wanted a Bass and Drum back up. I almost said no, that I was all set to do
> it solo, and boy am I glad I did not say that! Turns out the bass player
> plays with the biggest rock band in this area, and is a serious long hair.
> Me - I've hardly got any damned hair left and this guy's hair is down to his
> belt. Played a 6 string bass and he knew how to play each one of those 6
> strings. He's a rocker and my stuff last night was some old Steve Goodman
> stuff, a Travis Van Zandt tune, and an original that was straight up
> country. Let me tell you - we rocked the freakin' joint! One of those
> great gigs where a few musicians get up and play together, who have never
> met, don't know the same music, and somehow, pull it off big time. Was one
> of the best times I've had in a long time. The bass player was glued to my
> left hand because he didn't know any of the music, but it didn't take him
> long to feel what to add in. Straight up country with some really rockin'
> bass can be a killer match.
>
> What does this have to do with woodworking and the availability of wood for
> luthiers? Not a damned thing!
>
> But - I did take my Taylor...
>
Sounds like you would have fit in at Callahan's place.
On 11/21/2013 2:45 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Wouldn't a finish tend to retard the movement of moisture into and out of
> the wood? If it's moisture changes causing the movement, and not
> something else like temperature, then could the finish play a part in
> allowing pieces to be transported with little difficulty?
A finish indeed has a slowing effect on EMC, but does not stop wood from
moving toward it.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>
>>
>> Wouldn't a finish tend to retard the movement of moisture into and
>> out of the wood? If it's moisture changes causing the movement, and
>> not something else like temperature, then could the finish play a
>> part in allowing pieces to be transported with little difficulty?
>>
>
> Yeah but that's where it gets even worse - instruments are only finished on
> the outside. The inside of a guitar for example, or a fiddle, etc. is raw
> wood. That's a worst case scenario for wood. To be fair - the wood does
> move, and guitars fall out of tune due to changes in humidity, and they are
> all glued together with cross braces inside, and the like, so there is an
> understandable reason why they don't move as much, but then there's that
> stuff from IKEA. I still don't understand how it holds up.
Most of the wood in ikea products is a man made wood product. And IIRC
most of what they sell is assembled at the purchasers house. Wood movement
mostly affects fit when it is used in large and or wide panels. To combat
that tendency a substitute for solid wood is used, ie. plywood, MDF,
particle board..
"dadiOH" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that at
right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move much.
That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For example, all our
toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3" wide lapped at
the corners.
Discussion is invited.
--
dadiOH
I do lots of woodworking on our house. but never thought about making a
toilet seat. WW
On 11/20/2013 6:05 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
> still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
> expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that at
> right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
>
> Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move much.
> That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For example, all our
> toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3" wide lapped at
> the corners.
>
> Discussion is invited.
>
I make lap joints on every one of my back face frames, typically 6~8 on
every one of 20 in the last 2 years. The joints are any where from 3/4"
to 3.5" wide.
I use the regular water based wood glues which always have some degree
elasticity to them so the wood is able to move. Basically the same goes
for mortise and tenon and floating tenon joints where the grain is not
matched in direction. Wood moves but typically not enough to out
stretch the glue's ability to stretch until you get in to wide panels
like cabinet sides, solid wood door panels, and table tops.
=20
> The glues we have now are a marvel!
Amen .... As someone who grew up in the 1940s and 1950s, I remember what an=
ordeal it often was to glue things. It seems the choices were mainly the o=
ld Duco for model airplanes and other light gluing, and "Iron Glue", a feti=
d, fish-based stuff in a small bottle.
After WWII, we saw better and better adhesives available.
I would also add the same is true of lubricants. What a difference!
=20
dadiOH wrote:
> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but
> I still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that
> wood expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood
> doing that at right angles to each other yet they remain nice and
> solid. How come?
> Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move
> much. That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For
> example, all our toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces
> about 3" wide lapped at the corners.
>
> Discussion is invited.
I'll throw out the thought that it's because the wood does not move at the
joint. The glue successfully holds that joint together as a unit. This
might be easier to see with edge glued boards. The boards may move some
with varying conditions, across their width, just not at the joint where it
is glued.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 11/20/2013 6:05 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> > I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I
> > have more tools but I still do on occasion and I wonder
> > why they work? We all know that wood expands and
> > contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing
> > that at right angles to each other yet they remain nice
> > and solid. How come? Someone might say it is because each piece is
> > narrow
> > and doesn't move much. That is true but I've often made
> > fairly wide laps. For example, all our toilet seats
> > are wood, each made with four pieces about 3" wide
> > lapped at the corners. Discussion is invited.
>
> What are you calling a "lap joint"?
>
> What many call lap joints these days are traditionally
> called "halving joints", most common being what is
> traditionally known as a "half lap" joint.
Yeah, those.
> Halving joints are mostly moderate strength and generally
> require some type of pinning to stand the test of time.
That would certainly help but some of my toilet seats are more than 25 years
old and doing fine so far :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "right angles to each other yet they remain nice and
> solid. How come?" **********************
> They work because glue sticks. Oh really?
> Trivial but true, lots of surface, lots of pull and twist
> resistance.
The glues we have now are a marvel!
> And even if the surfaces are not flat or the joint was
> poorly clamped, it still holds because some
> of that surface has been "welded".
> Moreover, to be sure, most laps are at right angles
> changing shape in conflict and they still hold because
> of mechanics and the magic of glue. Make them too big &
> without a fastener, and they will creep and loosen.
>
> I agree it is a surprise they last so long. A fastener,
> in my view, on occasion is called for. Make a gate that
> kids swing on and the connection may fail; add some steel
> and they won't bust it.
Damned steel is going to rust though :)
> Lap the surfaces with a dovetail
> bit and gain some more interlock and easier assembly.
> http://patwarner.com/images/dovetailed-lap.jpg
Yes, I do those from time to time.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
"Just Wondering" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 11/20/2013 5:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> > dadiOH wrote:
> > > I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I
> > > have more tools but I still do on occasion and I
> > > wonder why they work? We all know that wood expands
> > > and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood
> > > doing that at right angles to each other yet they
> > > remain nice and solid. How come? Someone might say it is because each
> > > piece is narrow
> > > and doesn't move much. That is true but I've often
> > > made fairly wide laps. For example, all our toilet
> > > seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3"
> > > wide lapped at the corners. Discussion is invited.
> >
> > I'll throw out the thought that it's because the wood
> > does not move at the joint. The glue successfully
> > holds that joint together as a unit. This might be
> > easier to see with edge glued boards. The boards may
> > move some with varying conditions, across their width,
> > just not at the joint where it is glued.
> Plywood is just a huge sheet of lap joints. It seems to
> hold together OK.
Main difference is that the layers are thin.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
Just Wondering wrote:
> On 11/20/2013 5:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools
>>> but I still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know
>>> that wood expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of
>>> wood doing that at right angles to each other yet they remain nice
>>> and solid. How come?
>>> Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't
>>> move much. That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For
>>> example, all our toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces
>>> about 3" wide lapped at the corners.
>>>
>>> Discussion is invited.
>>
>> I'll throw out the thought that it's because the wood does not move
>> at the joint. The glue successfully holds that joint together as a
>> unit. This might be easier to see with edge glued boards. The
>> boards may move some with varying conditions, across their width,
>> just not at the joint where it is glued.
>>
> Plywood is just a huge sheet of lap joints. It seems to hold together
> OK.
Correct.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
dadiOH wrote:
> "Just Wondering" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> On 11/20/2013 5:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> dadiOH wrote:
>>>> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I
>>>> have more tools but I still do on occasion and I
>>>> wonder why they work? We all know that wood expands
>>>> and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood
>>>> doing that at right angles to each other yet they
>>>> remain nice and solid. How come? Someone might say it is because
>>>> each piece is narrow
>>>> and doesn't move much. That is true but I've often
>>>> made fairly wide laps. For example, all our toilet
>>>> seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3"
>>>> wide lapped at the corners. Discussion is invited.
>>>
>>> I'll throw out the thought that it's because the wood
>>> does not move at the joint. The glue successfully
>>> holds that joint together as a unit. This might be
>>> easier to see with edge glued boards. The boards may
>>> move some with varying conditions, across their width,
>>> just not at the joint where it is glued.
>> Plywood is just a huge sheet of lap joints. It seems to
>> hold together OK.
>
> Main difference is that the layers are thin.
I don't thing that "main difference" makes any difference.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 07:05:44 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
> still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
> expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that
> at right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
I think a lot of it is the sealing effect of the finish and the climate
control in modern houses.
Either dewaxed shellac or oil based polyurethane do a good job of
retarding moisture exchange. And with a lot of houses having air
conditioners, hunidifiers and or dehumidifers the seasonal humidity
changes are almost nullified. And the glue itself seals the unfinished
surfaces of the joint.
Someone who's made lap joints for unfinished outdoor stuff, or who lives
in an area with extreme humidity changes might have a different
experience.
I live in the west. Humidity is low in the summer and high in the
winter, but the house heating in the winter lowers the indoor humidity
quite a bit so the swing is lessened considerably.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
Swingman wrote:
> Good point. Wood does not shrink or swell unless its moisture content
> changes . Ship a piece of furniture cross country and movement
> becomes a detrimental fact, as many furniture manufacturers have
> learned. Modern furniture production is quite concerned with, and
> spends a lot of money keeping factory/shop RH and wood EMC as close
> to 7.0 percent EMC and 35 percent RH as possible.
Good point indeed, but not as good as we tend to think. Think about all of
the glued together musical instruments that are shipped worldwide, furniture
of differing qualities that are glued up and suffer the conditions of
differing environments. There is far less movement than is often spoke of
here. Not to say there is none, but often times there really is none. Look
where stuff is manufactured, and look at where it ends up. We tend to make
more of this movement thing in this newsgroujp than can actually be found in
most real world situations.
IKEA may me junk, but - how do they ship products around the world without
1/4" gaps? How about Martin guitars? Think about something as precise as
that Martin... An extreme movement would be considered to be less than
1/8", and that is at the neck - over an almost 2' span. Look how all of
those cross grain structures hold together to keep the body intact, the
bracing intact, and the bridge intact. Certainly movement of far less than
1/8" would be catastrophic.
So - I'm not aruging with the prevailing logic, but I am suggesting that we
tend to apply that logic too universally, in the face of obvious eveidence.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Puckdropper wrote:
>
> Wouldn't a finish tend to retard the movement of moisture into and
> out of the wood? If it's moisture changes causing the movement, and
> not something else like temperature, then could the finish play a
> part in allowing pieces to be transported with little difficulty?
>
Yeah but that's where it gets even worse - instruments are only finished on
the outside. The inside of a guitar for example, or a fiddle, etc. is raw
wood. That's a worst case scenario for wood. To be fair - the wood does
move, and guitars fall out of tune due to changes in humidity, and they are
all glued together with cross braces inside, and the like, so there is an
understandable reason why they don't move as much, but then there's that
stuff from IKEA. I still don't understand how it holds up.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 11/21/2013 8:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/20/2013 11:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Look
>> where stuff is manufactured, and look at where it ends up. We tend to
>> make
>> more of this movement thing in this newsgroujp than can actually be
>> found in
>> most real world situations.
>
> Think about how much real wood is in today's factory furniture. Most of
> it is veneer with a substrate of particle board, which is not subject to
> the same dimensional instability ... about the only real wood is the
> trim elements.
>
> One of the reasons why you rarely see solid wood panels on modern
> factory furniture any longer.
>
> Also, as I stated, manufacturers spend a good deal of money dealing with
> the dimensional instability of wood in their plants, to include
> purposely maintaining a narrow limit to RH and EMC ... they learned the
> hard way.
>
>> IKEA may me junk,
>
> Ikeas uses real wood? Coulda fooled me. ;)
>
> > How about Martin guitars? Think about something as precise as
> > that Martin.
>
> Woods used for guitars and other instruments, are specifically chosen
> for dimensional stability. AAMOF, there are very few woods used by
> luthiers.
>
> Spruce, maple, mahogany, walnut, ebony, rosewood, and in particular,
> Honduras mahogany are all woods that are extremely stable when properly
> dried and chosen. You will rarely see any other type of wood on a
> musical instrument.
No doubt due to supply and demand, I see Taylor using a lot of "Sapele"
on their guitars these days. I never heard of it before they started
using it.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/woods
>
> Not to mention that successful luthiers and instrument makers spend a
> whole lot more time and effort choosing their woods for stability,
> grade, tone, and grain than a furniture manufacturer.
>
> > So - I'm not aruging with the prevailing logic, but I am suggesting
> > that we tend to apply that logic too universally, in the face of
> > obvious eveidence.
>
> Not in my book ... dimensional instability of wood is something you
> ignore at your own peril. :)
>
> Most of us just don't see it because our furniture has reached EMC and
> because _wood does not shrink or swell unless its moisture content
> changes_.
>
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 07:15:25 -0600, Swingman wrote:
> Spruce, maple, mahogany, walnut, ebony, rosewood, and in particular,
> Honduras mahogany are all woods that are extremely stable when properly
> dried and chosen. You will rarely see any other type of wood on a
> musical instrument.
Well, I did use spanish cedar for a soundboard on a hammered dulcimer,
but that was a floating soundboard :-).
BTW, the spanish cedar is gorgeous. But it has too much sustain. Next
time I'll make one a little thicker.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2013 7:30 AM, Bill wrote:
>
>> No doubt due to supply and demand,
>
> Nope ... it is experienced based, by hundreds of years of using
> different woods for wooden instruments and figuring out which woods
> stand the test of time, and the science behind why they do so.
>
> Supply and demand does not change the properties of the wood used. :)
>
I read an article a few years back that the big guitar makers (Taylor,
Martin) were having trouble getting tonewoods in the quantity they
needed. Was that just propaganda?
Bill wrote:
>
> No doubt due to supply and demand, I see Taylor using a lot of
> "Sapele" on their guitars these days. I never heard of it before
> they started using it.
>
> http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/woods
>
Do a search for the 710CE, Bill. That's the acoustic I have, except mine is
blonde, not stained. Very nice guitars.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2013 7:30 AM, Bill wrote:
>
>> No doubt due to supply and demand,
>
> Nope ... it is experienced based, by hundreds of years of using
> different woods for wooden instruments and figuring out which woods
> stand the test of time, and the science behind why they do so.
>
> Supply and demand does not change the properties of the wood used. :)
Agreed. Luthiers always seem to find the woods they want.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Swingman wrote:
> Yep, thinking back, my wife has a classical guitar with a Spanish
> cedar top, and it seems to hold up well also.
>
> Recorded quite a few hammered dulcimers in my studio days ...
> "sustain" is an understatement with that instrument. ;)
Played an open mic last night at Toby Keith's I Love This Bar in Syracuse.
Two guys came up while I was waiting in the wings to go on, and asked if I
wanted a Bass and Drum back up. I almost said no, that I was all set to do
it solo, and boy am I glad I did not say that! Turns out the bass player
plays with the biggest rock band in this area, and is a serious long hair.
Me - I've hardly got any damned hair left and this guy's hair is down to his
belt. Played a 6 string bass and he knew how to play each one of those 6
strings. He's a rocker and my stuff last night was some old Steve Goodman
stuff, a Travis Van Zandt tune, and an original that was straight up
country. Let me tell you - we rocked the freakin' joint! One of those
great gigs where a few musicians get up and play together, who have never
met, don't know the same music, and somehow, pull it off big time. Was one
of the best times I've had in a long time. The bass player was glued to my
left hand because he didn't know any of the music, but it didn't take him
long to feel what to add in. Straight up country with some really rockin'
bass can be a killer match.
What does this have to do with woodworking and the availability of wood for
luthiers? Not a damned thing!
But - I did take my Taylor...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2013 12:45 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>> Yep, thinking back, my wife has a classical guitar with a Spanish
>>> cedar top, and it seems to hold up well also.
>>>
>>> Recorded quite a few hammered dulcimers in my studio days ...
>>> "sustain" is an understatement with that instrument. ;)
>>
>> Played an open mic last night at Toby Keith's I Love This Bar in
>> Syracuse. Two guys came up while I was waiting in the wings to go
>> on, and asked if I wanted a Bass and Drum back up. I almost said
>> no, that I was all set to do it solo, and boy am I glad I did not
>> say that! Turns out the bass player plays with the biggest rock
>> band in this area, and is a serious long hair. Me - I've hardly got
>> any damned hair left and this guy's hair is down to his belt. Played a 6
>> string bass and he knew how to play each one of those 6
>> strings. He's a rocker and my stuff last night was some old Steve
>> Goodman stuff, a Travis Van Zandt tune, and an original that was
>> straight up country. Let me tell you - we rocked the freakin'
>> joint! One of those great gigs where a few musicians get up and
>> play together, who have never met, don't know the same music, and
>> somehow, pull it off big time. Was one of the best times I've had
>> in a long time. The bass player was glued to my left hand because
>> he didn't know any of the music, but it didn't take him long to feel
>> what to add in. Straight up country with some really rockin' bass
>> can be a killer match. What does this have to do with woodworking and
>> the availability of
>> wood for luthiers? Not a damned thing!
>>
>> But - I did take my Taylor...
>
> It only takes one of those magical musical moments to keep you playing
> 'til the next time it happens. ;)
Ain't it just the truth! Key-rist, I came home and was still pumped up -
and it's a half hour ride home from the bar. When the magic strikes, it is
just that - magic. Good thing there are substitutes for that time in life
when yer wife gets too old for sex...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>Puckdropper wrote:
>
>>
>> Wouldn't a finish tend to retard the movement of moisture into and
>> out of the wood? If it's moisture changes causing the movement, and
>> not something else like temperature, then could the finish play a
>> part in allowing pieces to be transported with little difficulty?
>>
>
>Yeah but that's where it gets even worse - instruments are only finished on
>the outside. The inside of a guitar for example, or a fiddle, etc. is raw
>wood. That's a worst case scenario for wood. To be fair - the wood does
>move, and guitars fall out of tune due to changes in humidity, and they are
>all glued together with cross braces inside, and the like, so there is an
>understandable reason why they don't move as much, but then there's that
>stuff from IKEA. I still don't understand how it holds up.
>
The particle board, MDF, etc. used for most Ikea furniture doesn't
have the cross-grain/with-the-grain diffences in expansion rates
like solid wood does.
:wq
--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)
Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> No doubt due to supply and demand, I see Taylor using a lot of
>> "Sapele" on their guitars these days. I never heard of it before
>> they started using it.
>>
>> http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/woods
>>
> Do a search for the 710CE, Bill. That's the acoustic I have, except mine is
> blonde, not stained. Very nice guitars.
>
My recollection was that the Taylor 700 Series had Mahogany bodies, (and
that the 800 series had Rosewood bodies). The website describes both
as being made with Rosewood. Yes, very nice guitars. It's curious
that our interests overlap so much (there's even a pun to be found with
the name of this thread). I played a CD by Mance Lipscomb on the way to
work today. "Freddie poor boy, he got mad, with a gun, in his hand...".
Just Wondering wrote:
> Sounds like you would have fit in at Callahan's place.
Oh hell - I can fit in most any place except for the head banging real
grunge stuff. I was raised with Country playing on the radio so there is a
real soft spot in my heart for the old country stuff - not so much for the
contemporary stuff. I'm a died in the wool David Allan Coe fan, I like
Merle, some George, not much Johnny, a ton of Waylon, not really any of
Willy. I love some of the old Jim Reeves stuff, and some of those older
guys but there just aren't that many people still alive that recognize their
music anymore.
But - I'm a rock guy inside my stained underwear. But - I have a very
diverse catalog of songs so that I can fit in most anywhere I find myself.
Central NY is (believe it or not...), mostly country. If you want to play
in a bar and be well received, you better have a bunch of country in your
knickers, and a bunch more Skynyrd. You can get a few ZZ Top tunes in but
you better slide a Skynyrd tune in there after a few. So - I mix it up at
the open mic nights. I do some Moody Blues (NOT Nights in White Satin...),
some Neil Diamond, some Merle, some originals. You'd be surprised at how
you can get a room rocking with a Monkeys tune (I'm a Believer). Who'd a
ever thunk it?
As for fitting in at Callahan's Place - I think I might have met Mike
Callahan at some point in my life...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Larry W wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a finish tend to retard the movement of moisture into and
>>> out of the wood? If it's moisture changes causing the movement, and
>>> not something else like temperature, then could the finish play a
>>> part in allowing pieces to be transported with little difficulty?
>>>
>>
>> Yeah but that's where it gets even worse - instruments are only
>> finished on the outside. The inside of a guitar for example, or a
>> fiddle, etc. is raw wood. That's a worst case scenario for wood.
>> To be fair - the wood does move, and guitars fall out of tune due to
>> changes in humidity, and they are all glued together with cross
>> braces inside, and the like, so there is an understandable reason
>> why they don't move as much, but then there's that stuff from IKEA.
>> I still don't understand how it holds up.
>>
>
> The particle board, MDF, etc. used for most Ikea furniture doesn't
> have the cross-grain/with-the-grain diffences in expansion rates
> like solid wood does.
Yup - somebody else mentioned that, and I had not even thought of that. Tip
of the hat to the both of you. I'll sit back down with my guitar in the
corner for now...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 19:29:14 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
> As for fitting in at Callahan's Place - I think I might have met Mike
> Callahan at some point in my life...
But isn't it Mary's Place now?
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> No doubt due to supply and demand, I see Taylor using a lot of
>>> "Sapele" on their guitars these days. I never heard of it before
>>> they started using it.
>>>
>>> http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/woods
>>>
>> Do a search for the 710CE, Bill. That's the acoustic I have, except
>> mine is blonde, not stained. Very nice guitars.
>>
> My recollection was that the Taylor 700 Series had Mahogany bodies,
> (and that the 800 series had Rosewood bodies). The website describes
> both as being made with Rosewood. Yes, very nice guitars. It's
> curious that our interests overlap so much (there's even a pun to be
> found with the name of this thread). I played a CD by Mance Lipscomb
> on the way to work today. "Freddie poor boy, he got mad, with a gun,
> in his hand...".
Hey Bill - here's a link to an original on my Taylor... Warning - we did
this in my living room, with the only digital camcorder we own. Quality is
less than optimal.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=642299899132707&set=vb.100000581097612&type=2&theater
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> No doubt due to supply and demand, I see Taylor using a lot of
>>>> "Sapele" on their guitars these days. I never heard of it before
>>>> they started using it.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/woods
>>>>
>>> Do a search for the 710CE, Bill. That's the acoustic I have, except
>>> mine is blonde, not stained. Very nice guitars.
>>>
>> My recollection was that the Taylor 700 Series had Mahogany bodies,
>> (and that the 800 series had Rosewood bodies). The website describes
>> both as being made with Rosewood. Yes, very nice guitars. It's
>> curious that our interests overlap so much (there's even a pun to be
>> found with the name of this thread). I played a CD by Mance Lipscomb
>> on the way to work today. "Freddie poor boy, he got mad, with a gun,
>> in his hand...".
> Hey Bill - here's a link to an original on my Taylor... Warning - we did
> this in my living room, with the only digital camcorder we own. Quality is
> less than optimal.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=642299899132707&set=vb.100000581097612&type=2&theater
>
I'd like to see one with your wife sitting in the empty chair there next
to you. Nice job. I have never seen a video of myself playing. I
shared an mp3 or two here a few years ago--I'm not sure whether you
heard them. Let's see, what could I do? "Freddie poor boy, he got
mad, with a gun, in his hand... ; ) I used to be big on Blind Lemon
Jefferson and Charlie Patton. I used to walk around a park-like area
with my guitar to sing and baffle the kids. I was propositioned by two
different women on two different occasions. I guess that's nothing to
you guys who play out alot, where alcohol is consumed! ; )
Bill wrote:
>
> I'd like to see one with your wife sitting in the empty chair there
> next to you.
I'd like to see that myself, but she is very shy and the few times that
she's been out with me when I did this song, she hated when I drew attention
to her.
> Nice job.
Thank you, but the video is really poor quality in every respect. I don't
own a decent camera to do this stuff right.
> I have never seen a video of myself playing.
> I shared an mp3 or two here a few years ago--I'm not sure whether you
> heard them. Let's see, what could I do? "Freddie poor boy, he got
> mad, with a gun, in his hand... ; ) I used to be big on Blind Lemon
> Jefferson and Charlie Patton. I used to walk around a park-like area
> with my guitar to sing and baffle the kids. I was propositioned by
> two different women on two different occasions. I guess that's
> nothing to you guys who play out alot, where alcohol is consumed! ; )
Yeahbut just once, just one time... I wish one of them would have all of
their front teeth...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 07:05:44 -0500, dadiOH <[email protected]> wrote:
> I used to make lots of them. Now, less because I have more tools but I
> still do on occasion and I wonder why they work? We all know that wood
> expands and contracts and lap joints have to pieces of wood doing that at
> right angles to each other yet they remain nice and solid. How come?
>
> Someone might say it is because each piece is narrow and doesn't move much.
> That is true but I've often made fairly wide laps. For example, all our
> toilet seats are wood, each made with four pieces about 3" wide lapped at
> the corners.
>
> Discussion is invited.
It has to do with the better bonding of long grain faces versus the end
grain which basically sucks up the glue and has poor bonding.
I think it is like no on prefers butt faces. ;)
"Sonny" <
> wrote in message
On Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:15:25 AM UTC-6,
Swingman wrote:
Re: List of woods & experience:
> > Spruce, maple, mahogany, walnut, ebony,
> > rosewood, and in particular, Honduras mahogany
> > are all woods that are extremely stable .... .
> > You will rarely see any other type of wood on
> > a musical instrument.
> Nope ... it is experienced based, ....
25 or so yrs ago, several teenage nephews visited
for a few summer weeks, brought their guitars to
jam, one or 2 for simple repairs, etc., etc. They
asked about making a guitar from scratch.
I had an air dried sycamore log, so "we" decided
to try carving a whole (single unit) "guitar" from
it. Got pretty far with carving the body, neck,
ram's head headstock, hand planed 1/8" soundboard,
etc., but never assembled/finished it. When the
boys left, I stuck it in the old shop and....
It hasn't moved, since.
Sonny
Perhaps a grandkid will be thrilled to find it,
eih? ;>)}
On 11/20/2013 11:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Look
> where stuff is manufactured, and look at where it ends up. We tend to make
> more of this movement thing in this newsgroujp than can actually be found in
> most real world situations.
Think about how much real wood is in today's factory furniture. Most of
it is veneer with a substrate of particle board, which is not subject to
the same dimensional instability ... about the only real wood is the
trim elements.
One of the reasons why you rarely see solid wood panels on modern
factory furniture any longer.
Also, as I stated, manufacturers spend a good deal of money dealing with
the dimensional instability of wood in their plants, to include
purposely maintaining a narrow limit to RH and EMC ... they learned the
hard way.
> IKEA may me junk,
Ikeas uses real wood? Coulda fooled me. ;)
> How about Martin guitars? Think about something as precise as
> that Martin.
Woods used for guitars and other instruments, are specifically chosen
for dimensional stability. AAMOF, there are very few woods used by luthiers.
Spruce, maple, mahogany, walnut, ebony, rosewood, and in particular,
Honduras mahogany are all woods that are extremely stable when properly
dried and chosen. You will rarely see any other type of wood on a
musical instrument.
Not to mention that successful luthiers and instrument makers spend a
whole lot more time and effort choosing their woods for stability,
grade, tone, and grain than a furniture manufacturer.
> So - I'm not aruging with the prevailing logic, but I am suggesting
> that we tend to apply that logic too universally, in the face of
> obvious eveidence.
Not in my book ... dimensional instability of wood is something you
ignore at your own peril. :)
Most of us just don't see it because our furniture has reached EMC and
because _wood does not shrink or swell unless its moisture content
changes_.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/20/2013 8:22 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/20/2013 8:06 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>> Halving joints are mostly moderate strength and generally
>>> require some type of pinning to stand the test of time.
>>
>> That would certainly help but some of my toilet seats are more than 25
>> years
>> old and doing fine so far :)
>
> Hell, that's just a half a second in the history of wood joints. ;)
>
> My wooden ones use both finger and half lap joints. Cross grain
> "lamination" is not always bad, sez the plywood manufacturer.
>
> The "bottom" line, just finish it real well. ;)
>
Finish it real well! Heck just let the natural oils and fluids seal the
wood!
I guess you would call that the "Out House" finish.
On 11/21/2013 11:23 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 07:15:25 -0600, Swingman wrote:
>
>> Spruce, maple, mahogany, walnut, ebony, rosewood, and in particular,
>> Honduras mahogany are all woods that are extremely stable when properly
>> dried and chosen. You will rarely see any other type of wood on a
>> musical instrument.
>
> Well, I did use spanish cedar for a soundboard on a hammered dulcimer,
> but that was a floating soundboard :-).
>
> BTW, the spanish cedar is gorgeous. But it has too much sustain. Next
> time I'll make one a little thicker.
Yep, thinking back, my wife has a classical guitar with a Spanish cedar
top, and it seems to hold up well also.
Recorded quite a few hammered dulcimers in my studio days ... "sustain"
is an understatement with that instrument. ;)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/20/2013 8:06 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Halving joints are mostly moderate strength and generally
>> require some type of pinning to stand the test of time.
>
> That would certainly help but some of my toilet seats are more than 25 years
> old and doing fine so far :)
Hell, that's just a half a second in the history of wood joints. ;)
My wooden ones use both finger and half lap joints. Cross grain
"lamination" is not always bad, sez the plywood manufacturer.
The "bottom" line, just finish it real well. ;)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 11/21/2013 7:30 AM, Bill wrote:
> No doubt due to supply and demand,
Nope ... it is experienced based, by hundreds of years of using
different woods for wooden instruments and figuring out which woods
stand the test of time, and the science behind why they do so.
Supply and demand does not change the properties of the wood used. :)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)