Norm Vs. Marks

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:16:31 -0700, mttt wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

>
> "Bruce Rowen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
>> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
>> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
>> finished in tung oil.
>
> Marks made his own hinges...
>
>

Don't worry people, I realy do like the Norm man 8^) I was really just
pointing out their differences in design and construction approaches. Norm
goes practical, Marks goes artsy. It was just kinda neat seeing them make the
same basic thing. I don't fault either of them for using out of reach power
tools, I know well enough how to achieve the same effect with what I have.
Norm really does love his TimeSaver and I noticed that Marks is really
slipping in the "word" for how he likes his MultiRouter. I can get the same
cuts with my handheld router as with the MultiRouter, it just will take more
time for setup. I do envy the drum sanders though since I really can smooth
plane some very thin veneers and instead have to make do with thicker stock,
but someday I'll practice with a sled and double sided tape for my planer or
hand plane...

-Bruce

> Norm doesn't even pretend to
> fill in the holes, he just polys over everything and calls it done.

Now how exactly do you know that? Just because they don't show him
doing it every time doesn't mean he doesn't (and they HAVE shown this
on occasion), just like everyone who continually bitches about his
"excessive glue use" - I personally am glad that they don't waste
valuable episode time showing every tiny little detail, like cleaning
up glue, etc. It's hard enough to show the important stuff in a
half-hour show, I really could care less about seeing the more mundane
task that are repeated for every piece he makes. If the intent was to
show everything they'd spend the last few minutes showing the shop
cleanup, right? And who wants to watch that?

(And, again in reference to all the glue remarks that are repeated
around here over and over and over, what harm is there in a little bit
of glue squeezing out, which is then mostly or completely wiped off
with a wet sponge (whether they show it or not, it is), and then the
piece is sanded before finishing to boot? No harm at all in my book. if
he wasn't cleaning up at all and leaving beads of glue at all the
joints that would be one thing, but he obviously doesn't. I just don't
understand what all the fuss is about, except perhaps jealousy?)

This is TV, and you need to realize that they simply don't show every
little detail that he performs in a half-hour episode.

Brian

PS. I'll take Norm over Marks any day. I don't need to be reminded of
everything that he just got done doing every time he comes back from
commercial (all the damn HGTV/DIY shows are like that, it so annoying
and condesending) and I personally prefer the simplicity of Norm's work
on the whole - as with many things, less is usually more. Just my
opinion, of course - you are free to disagree.

> Um, this is supposed to be an educational program, if they don't show
> him doing it, it's no different than him not doing it at all.

This is but one of many things they don't show in any given half-hour
episode... again, they couldn't possibly keep the show to one half-hour
if they showed everything...



> If he
> can shoot brads, he can at least mention that he'll fill in the holes
> later, even if it isn't shown.

And he *has* mentioned it, and they've shown it in various episodes as
well. They just don't mention it every single time. This is par for the
course for nearly every show in the genre...

I agree, I've learned a ton of things from Norm. In fact, I wasn't really
into woodworking prior because all I really knew were but joints and screws.
I'm not saying that I'm a craftsman now . . but I'm allot further ahead than
I was before watching him do all of the basic things several times.

Don

LRod <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:30:57 GMT, Brian Henderson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >We all know that the tools on Norm's show are on 'loan' from the
> >companies that sponsor the show,
>
> I'm not sure that's entirely true. Watching the show from the
> beginning it was clear that the early Elu, Craftsman, Makita, Bostich,
> and other tools were certainly not new, suggesting ownership by either
> Norm or Russell Morash.
>
> Over the years there have been several other tools that appear to have
> that same genesis, e.g. the Rockwell jointer and the Powermatic
> planer, just to name a couple. Even the original Unisaw was an old
> Rockwell. I think Delta's acquisition of Rockwell predated the first
> NYW, so where did it come from? I'm not saying they're all owned by
> the show, but they certainly aren't all "loaners."
>
> >unlike David Marks' show where he owns them all and has no
> >financial link to any of the manufacturers.
>
> So does tools-on-loan somehow diminish the value of Norm's product?
> It's not like it's a RotoZip informercial. Just off the top of my
> head, I don't think I've ever heard Norm call a tool by its brand
> name. That contrasts sharply with Boob Vila constantly inserting the
> manufacturer's name of every tool (and product) that's being used on
> his show.
>
> >I do enjoy both shows, but as time has gone on, I've found less
> >interest in tool-centric Norm and his weekend warrior projects and
> >more in the David Marks style show where you learn craftsmanship
> >rather than shooting brads like they're going out of style.
>
> Geez if you watch a typical 24 minute episode of NYW and all you come
> away with is the few seconds of brad nailer use, you're missing a
> whole lot of craftsmanship and other good ideas.
>
>
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

"The Guy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> copies of each piece will be produced. Marks is probably still making a
> living as a woodworker. (He is probably making another living on TV :) )

An article on his website indicates that the show has consumed his complete
time/attention.

"Guppas!" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bruce <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> I asked David in a note about the MultiRouter. He gave me the name of
> some guys in NC (?) that build them. They said the cost, without any
> bells and whistles, and without the router, was about $2,400. Yikes.

A new guy came to my woodworking club this month with a "multirouter" that
he made out of Baltic Birch. It looked like a lot of work but he probably
had less than $100 in materials in it...

John

Dave Mundt <[email protected]> wrote:

> I do know that the
> stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
> and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all,
> look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept
> that on even after Delta had discontinued it....

They've got one out (a newer version?) and they advertise it as the one
that Norm uses...

I've heard some positive comments about the newer one without the laser,
but with the double bevel and the crown stops.

Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Can't remember the last time I watched Norm, to be honest. I don't
> get PBS here and they pulled his shows off HGTV, so...

That's a surprise. You speak as if you're an expert.

> >>I'm more interested in seeing a beautiful piece of furniture that will
> >>last generations, not in brads through the face frame "until the glue
> >>dries"
> >
> >Apples and oranges. Using brads doesn't consign a work to a short
> >life. Every method you use to join materials is only "until the glue
> >dries." Apparently that phrase irritates you and you use it to justify
> >indicting him for using those convenient and useful brads. How sad.
>
> No, any more than whacking in 6d nails consigns a work to a short
> life, but it makes the thing look ugly. Norm doesn't even pretend to
> fill in the holes, he just polys over everything and calls it done.

I can't recall him putting a brad through a face frame and your
assumption that he never fills nail holes is more hyperbole as well.
>
> >>and not every project can be done in a weekend.
> >
> >Of course it can't. What's your point? Norm does projects that are
> >completed in a two day shoot. What's wrong with that? Just because I
> >couldn't and maybe you couldn't get it done in a weekend is
> >immaterial to anything. Do you approve of the two part projects?
>
> It has nothing to do with what you or I can do, but with the
> complexity of Norm's projects. He only takes on things that can be
> done in 1-2 days. While there's nothing wrong with that, a lot of us
> aren't beginners and that's primarily what Norm appeals to.

Primarily appeals to beginners? lol. What have you built that's more
complex than NYW projects?

> You
> eventually get to a point when craftsmanship is more important than
> speed.

Really. Perhaps you can provide some instruction for viewers so that
they can rise to your level of "craftsmanship"? Why don't you provide a
short list off the top of your head?
>
> >And, miracle of miracles, doesn't Marks complete each project in one
> >episode? Is that a one, two, three day shoot? I"ll bet you'll say if
> >he does it in one, he's a hack; two he's a little less of a hack; if
> >it's three or more, he's a fine craftsman.
>
> Actually, some of his projects take weeks to finish and he says so.
> There are times when he needs to put the finish away for quite some
> time for it to complete.

Norm also does multiple step finishes. Just because the show is
presented in two segments doesn't mean they're completed in two days.
>
> >Why don't you cut to the chase and repeat after me:
> >
> >"My name is Brian and I'm a Norm hater."
>
> I don't hate Norm,

Well, given your spiel on how the majority of Americans are too lazy to
reach for a remote to change a channel, you sound like a hater in
general.

> but he's not the end-all-be-all of woodworking that
> many people make him out to be.

Where are these folks?

> He's a good start for the beginning
> woodworker, he gets people interested, but he's something that most of
> us outgrow eventually.
>
> Maybe someday you'll even make it.

lol...

By all means provide some urls of auction catalogs or similar so we can
view your sophisticated, complex artistry.

Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

> if they don't show
> him doing it, it's no different than him not doing it at all.

Not really.

Still waiting for your list of your projects with greater
"craftsmanship." You know, before you outgrew "beginner" instructions...

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:32:42 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:51:18 +0000, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'm not sure that's entirely true. Watching the show from the
>>beginning it was clear that the early Elu, Craftsman, Makita, Bostich,
>>and other tools were certainly not new, suggesting ownership by either
>>Norm or Russell Morash.
>
>The shop itself is owned by Russell Morash.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I mentioned his name.

>>So does tools-on-loan somehow diminish the value of Norm's product?
>>It's not like it's a RotoZip informercial. Just off the top of my
>>head, I don't think I've ever heard Norm call a tool by its brand
>>name. That contrasts sharply with Boob Vila constantly inserting the
>>manufacturer's name of every tool (and product) that's being used on
>>his show.
>
>That's because he's not allowed to. If he started naming brand names,
>PBS wouldn't air the show anymore. That's why all the brand names are
>taped over as well. It certainly wasn't Norm's idea.

I don't think you can say unequivocally that he doesn't mention brands
because he's not allowed to, unless of course you're connected with
the program and know for sure. He just doesn't strike me as a shill. I
have the impression he's about the show and the project and not the
marketing of tools. You obviously have the feeling that he's
practically about to burst from the strain of withholding the vital
information that the clearly visible DJ20 is manufactured by Delta,
which is so cleverly obscured.

>However, I do think not being "owned" by your corporate sponsors is a
>good thing. Instead of having to show off the latest products for the
>guys paying the bills, you just get to focus on woodworking, which is
>exactly what David Marks does, IMO. That's not to say that Norm is
>bad, he's just not at the same level as David, nor does he try to be.

Well you certainly can't accuse Norm of showing off the latest
products of his sponsors. While he may get new tools occasionally from
them, he then uses them for years. He certainly doesn't have a load of
new tools every episode. Moreover, as I have pointed out before, he
uses plenty of tools (the same way; for years, if they're any good)
that aren't even made by the sponsors.

Not only all of that, but exactly how does Norm lose his focus on
woodworking with all of that corporate bill paying you claim he does?
In a 24 minute episode, How much time does he spend hawking tools?

And how does that compare with all of the commercial breaks in
WoodWorks and the shilling for the DIY website that Marks does in
them? Not to mention the reminders of "what we've done so far" after
each break. How many minutes of actual content are in a WoodWorks
episode? I'll wager quite a bit less than the 24 minutes that a NYW
episode is.

>>Geez if you watch a typical 24 minute episode of NYW and all you come
>>away with is the few seconds of brad nailer use, you're missing a
>>whole lot of craftsmanship and other good ideas.
>
>There isn't anything on NYW that's going to teach me new techniques or
>craftsmanship,

Then what's the point of watching? You know it all already, maybe you
should do something else. The rest of us, who are not so accomplished
as you, do find things to take away from each episode.

>...but if Norm is going to be doing things the wrong way,
>and his semi-automatic brad launcher, among other things, are simply
>WRONG IMO,

Well, your opinion doesn't agree with my opinion. And from reading
another thread here in the last few hours, there are plenty of others
who don't share that opinion, either.

>it lessens the show. This is supposed to be woodworking,
>not hammering things together. If I wanted to see that, I'd watch
>Bruce Johnson.

You'll find that your definition of woodworking suits you, just as my
definition, which is different from yours, suits me. Again, you focus
on a few seconds of brad nailing and disparage the entire program
because of it.

>I'm more interested in seeing a beautiful piece of furniture that will
>last generations, not in brads through the face frame "until the glue
>dries"

Apples and oranges. Using brads doesn't consign a work to a short
life. Every method you use to join materials is only "until the glue
dries." Apparently that phrase irritates you and you use it to justify
indicting him for using those convenient and useful brads. How sad.

>...and a quick coat of poly. I want to see it done right, not
>done quick.

That assumes (by you) that several coats of poly (he doesn't do a
single, "quick coat" finish) is somehow inadequate or of lesser
quality. Maybe you're special and have the time, inclination, and
resources to do other finishes, but there's nothing wrong with poly,
unless you have a specific requirement that it won't meet or you're a
finishing snob.

>Craftsmanship takes time...

What a load of blather. I've seen Frank Klausz hand cut a dovetail
joint in about two minutes that's probably better than one you can cut
in an hour and certainly better than one I could cut in a week. By
your standard he must be a hack because it only took him two minutes.

>and not every project can be done in a weekend.

Of course it can't. What's your point? Norm does projects that are
completed in a two day shoot. What's wrong with that? Just because I
couldn't and maybe you couldn't get it done in a weekend is
immaterial to anything. Do you approve of the two part projects?

And, miracle of miracles, doesn't Marks complete each project in one
episode? Is that a one, two, three day shoot? I"ll bet you'll say if
he does it in one, he's a hack; two he's a little less of a hack; if
it's three or more, he's a fine craftsman.

Why don't you cut to the chase and repeat after me:

"My name is Brian and I'm a Norm hater."

Admitting you have a problem is the first step in the long, difficult
road to recovery.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Bruce <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:16:31 -0700, mttt wrote
> (in message <[email protected]>):
>
> >
> > "Bruce Rowen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>
> >> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
> >> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
> >> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
> >> finished in tung oil.
> >
> > Marks made his own hinges...
> >
> >
>
> Don't worry people, I realy do like the Norm man 8^) I was really just
> pointing out their differences in design and construction approaches. Norm
> goes practical, Marks goes artsy. It was just kinda neat seeing them make the
> same basic thing. I don't fault either of them for using out of reach power
> tools, I know well enough how to achieve the same effect with what I have.
> Norm really does love his TimeSaver and I noticed that Marks is really
> slipping in the "word" for how he likes his MultiRouter. I can get the same
> cuts with my handheld router as with the MultiRouter, it just will take more
> time for setup. I do envy the drum sanders though since I really can smooth
> plane some very thin veneers and instead have to make do with thicker stock,
> but someday I'll practice with a sled and double sided tape for my planer or
> hand plane...
>
> -Bruce


I asked David in a note about the MultiRouter. He gave me the name of
some guys in NC (?) that build them. They said the cost, without any
bells and whistles, and without the router, was about $2,400. Yikes.

I like both of these guys, but I'm new and just keep plugging along.
I think they both love what they're doing and have fun at it.

Both hide your bare butt from passers-by?

"Bruce Rowen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences
> between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things
> people get dressed behind.
> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
> finished in tung oil.
>
> Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
> hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.

George wrote:
> Both hide your bare butt from passers-by?
>

Yep!
If it was me I'd just staple some bed sheets to the ceiling 8^)

My wife watched both episodes with me and commented that Norms creation
looked good but was a bit "blocky". She usually hates the Marks
creations (doesn't like his color choices) but thought his screen looked
good. I was a bit surprised he didn't cover up the screw heads though...

-Bruce



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Greetings and Salutations.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:00:59 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:03:31 -0800, Hitch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest
>>complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and
>>that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the
>>power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster,
>>more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to
>>with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly
>>or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it
>>by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the
>>shop and I need to work up a sweat.
>
>It isn't really that Norm uses power tools, but that he goes out of
>his way to use power tools to the exclusion of all else. He'll use a
>power tool even if it's easier to use a hand tool. The reason, of
>course, is that the tool manufacturers are paying for the show so
>he'll do the Tim Allen "MORE POWER" thing just to get more air time
>for the manufacturers.

And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about
it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a
utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes. I don't
know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that the
stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all,
look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept
that on even after Delta had discontinued it....
As I have said before, I like Norm and his show, and, I
think they occupy a valuable place in the world. Not only
does it show folks that it is possible to do it, and, might
generate interest in the hobby, but, it helps as a benchmark
for how long a project might take, and, how many steps it has.
There is room for both Marks and Abram on the air...and let's
enjoy both the shows!
Regards
Dave Mundt

Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the week.
He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for mama.........


JMHO......................

Brian wrote:

>
> PS. I'll take Norm over Marks any day.

In rec.woodworking
"Eric Lund" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the week.
>> He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for mama.........
>>
>
>Actually...
>
>First of all, a silly, childish proposition.
>
>However: Aw, never mind. Just go with what I said above.

I'll take the reins. I think Marks would kick Norm's ass. Norm is a fat
outa shape guy and Marks could wear him out with a stick and move
technique. Besides, didn't someone say that Marks is covering up all kinds
of jailhouse tattoos with those long sleeves and the wimpy demeanor is an
act?

In rec.woodworking
"Eric Lund" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Yeah. He's also cut like a body builder, but not as bulky. And there's
>really only one tatoo unless he has more under his shirt (or, dare I say,
>pants).

Dangit Eric, I was embellishing your story a little to scare Norm :)

I'll bet a bunch of people here would love to learn more about this. I
certainly would.

Perhaps some dimensions and so on.

Could be a good spring project.

Dave



"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Guppas!" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Bruce <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > I asked David in a note about the MultiRouter. He gave me the name of
> > some guys in NC (?) that build them. They said the cost, without any
> > bells and whistles, and without the router, was about $2,400. Yikes.
>
> A new guy came to my woodworking club this month with a "multirouter" that
> he made out of Baltic Birch. It looked like a lot of work but he probably
> had less than $100 in materials in it...
>
> John
>
>

David Marks kicks Norm's ass any day of the week. If the two of them
were to compete in a contest of making a specific type of furniture
Mark's version would have cleaner lines and a better finish. Plus
Marks uses better woods...I wish I could afford Purpleheart, Black
Walnut, Cherry, African exotics!!!

Bruce Rowen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences
> between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things
> people get dressed behind.
> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
> finished in tung oil.
>
> Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
> hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.
>
> anyhoo,
> -Bruce
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Hitch <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers.

I dunno ... I think there are folks who question some of his
techniques. I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.

> One of their biggest
> complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and
> that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman.

Actually, it's not so much his use of powertools as it is his use
of tools that aren't available to anyone who doesn't have corporate
sponsorships. (And there were those problems with him using too much
glue and brads and RBS for "coloring" his projects).

> Well, I like the
> power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster,
> more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to
> with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly
> or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it
> by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the
> shop and I need to work up a sweat.

Cool. So when was the last time you saw Nahm joint or surface a
board by hand?

> I don't think the purists really want to go back to the "good old days"
> where you chopped a tree down, bucked it with a hand saw, barked it with
> a spud, made planks with the pit saw (want to be on the bottom?),
> thicknessed the planks with your scrub plane, flattened them with your
> smooth plane, chopped all of your mortises and tenons with various
> chisels, and finally got to the point where you could clamp up your
> project. Man! It could take all day just to make a dresser!

Sometimes it evens takes a week!

BTW, several of my recent projects involved taking a mesquite log
and dimensioning it exactly as you describe. Know what? It was great
fun, even if it did take more than one afternoon.

> Let's just let up on Norm's use of power tools and admit that we like at
> least some of them (e.g., a planer). The only real advantage to being a
> complete Neander is that I don't think I ever saw an old photograph that
> had a fat woodworker in it. My gut would appreciate a little more
> handwork, even if my arms wouldn't.


So go for it. I maintain my girlish figure by doing 99% Neander
work.


Chuck Vance
Just say (tmPL) BTW, I give you about a 5 on the trollmeter.

Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Two different people for two different audiences.
>
>
> Let me know the next time you see Marks swinging a hammer on
> a construction site.

Thanks for summing up the difference so nicely. And rest assured,
I'll be sure to turn on Nahm's show the next time I want to see
construction work.


Chuck Vance
Just say (tmPL) And that does help explain Nahm's use of the
nailer.

Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Basspro* wrote:
> > David Marks kicks Norm's ass any day of the week. If the two of them
> > were to compete in a contest of making a specific type of furniture
> > Mark's version would have cleaner lines and a better finish. ...
>
>
>
> Two different people for two different audiences.
>
>
> Let me know the next time you see Marks swinging a hammer on
> a construction site.
>
> --
>
> Mark


Excellent Mark! Simply put, well stated.

Praise from one that swings a hammer almost every day.

Robert

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:43:14 -0500, Brian <[email protected]> wrote:

>Now how exactly do you know that? Just because they don't show him
>doing it every time doesn't mean he doesn't (and they HAVE shown this
>on occasion), just like everyone who continually bitches about his
>"excessive glue use" - I personally am glad that they don't waste
>valuable episode time showing every tiny little detail, like cleaning
>up glue, etc. It's hard enough to show the important stuff in a
>half-hour show, I really could care less about seeing the more mundane
>task that are repeated for every piece he makes. If the intent was to
>show everything they'd spend the last few minutes showing the shop
>cleanup, right? And who wants to watch that?

Um, this is supposed to be an educational program, if they don't show
him doing it, it's no different than him not doing it at all. If he
can shoot brads, he can at least mention that he'll fill in the holes
later, even if it isn't shown.

>PS. I'll take Norm over Marks any day. I don't need to be reminded of
>everything that he just got done doing every time he comes back from
>commercial (all the damn HGTV/DIY shows are like that, it so annoying
>and condesending) and I personally prefer the simplicity of Norm's work
>on the whole - as with many things, less is usually more. Just my
>opinion, of course - you are free to disagree.

Yes, that is unfortunate, but it isn't Marks, it's the channel.

"Bruce Rowen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
> finished in tung oil.

Marks made his own hinges...

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:59:25 -0700, Bruce Rowen <[email protected]>
wrote:

|I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences
|between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things
|people get dressed behind.
|The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
|stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
|The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
|finished in tung oil.
|
|Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
|hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.

I guess Marks is on cable or satellite, neither of which I get. I do
get Norm for free, so I guess it's another case of getting what you
pay for [G].

On 29 Jan 2004 20:21:11 GMT, [email protected] (Jerry
McCaffrey) brought forth from the murky depths:

>Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
><snip>
>
>>Amazing. Norm's a good guy despite his few ugly habits.
>>
>
>Norm is sort of like the Mr. Rogers of Woodworking. How could not like him?

PLEASE don't diss Norm like that. I hated the sweatered dork.
You may, however, diss his plaid shirts.


>I saw David Marks only once on the DIY promos on HGTV and he seemed OK, but
>a bit impressed with himself if I remember.

The sugary-sweet, Yuppified descriptions of his works
don't do anything to endear him to me, but I know that
he's not like that. Ever see an early, pre-TV picture
of him? He has tattoos all over both forearms. Ever
notice the long-sleeved shirts he wears on the show?
Now you know why he does that. ;) I hope he gets more
comfy with the camera next season.


>I was less than impressed with
>the other DIY promos I've seen and certainly wouldn't request DIY from my
>cable provider. The DIY quality of shows seem less than the "Other Marks"

I wrote to DIY to tell/ask them:
A) I watch only one show on their entire DIY lineup: Wood Works.
and
B) Please show more of the Wood Works episodes.




>(Jodie, the "shop bunny" with Pat Simpson on HGTV)and at least she's cuter
>than David ;)

She's a babe alright.


----------------------------------------------
CAUTION: Driver Legally B l o n d (e)
http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development
=======================================================

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4VyTb.205342$I06.2269131@attbi_s01...
> I'll bet a bunch of people here would love to learn more about this. I
> certainly would.
>
> Perhaps some dimensions and so on.
>
> Could be a good spring project.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Guppas!" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Bruce <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > > I asked David in a note about the MultiRouter. He gave me the name of
> > > some guys in NC (?) that build them. They said the cost, without any
> > > bells and whistles, and without the router, was about $2,400. Yikes.
> >
> > A new guy came to my woodworking club this month with a "multirouter"
that
> > he made out of Baltic Birch. It looked like a lot of work but he
probably
> > had less than $100 in materials in it...
> >

I'll see what I can do... someone had a digital camera there. I also got the
impression the guy was joining the club so I anticipate seeing him again.

John

>
> They both get to the same place by a different route. And I'm not at all
> convinced that Marks gets a better finish than Norm on everything,
> especially since he uses basically one finish, Tung Oil. I'm not against
> Tung Oil since I use it as well. But I can get a far better repairable
> finish on antiques and furntinure with Flecto Varithane Natural Oil with
> the way I apply it. Norm seems to use Poly, Oil and other finishes to
> show the viewer what options there are.
>

Norm is usually a stain and poly guy. That's OK. I've gone that route for
some pieces, when it was appropriate. I just think it's appropriate a lot
less often than Norm does. The thing that bothers me is that Norm seems to
have regressed. I TIVO all the NYW shows, and on a lot of the old reruns,
Norm was a lot more respectful of the wood and the appropriate finish for
the type of project he's doing. Now he seems more likely to stain, poly and
call it done.

The finish Marks uses is not pure tung oil. On the show, he uses a product
by General Finishes called Seal-A-Cell, and when he wants a protective
finish, he uses a topcoat of Arm-R-Seal. I've used these on one project and
they are a fantastic finish. They are both oil based, but a blend of oils,
not just tung. Of course, this finish is one he regularly would use anyway,
but he does use a lot of different finishing techniques.

He demonstrated ammonia fuming on one show, though I disagree with his
contention that household ammonia doesn't work. It's just slower. I know,
because I've done it. I'm not sure how well household ammonia would work on
a big piece, but it is just fine on small ones.

He's also used Potassium DiChromate on numerous shows. He talked a little
about that in his lecture, as well as using the stuff safely.

He also discussed using shellac and french polishing.

Cheers,
Eric

Marks is into arts and crafts/contemporary styles while Norm loves the
shaker style. It's like comparing apples and oranges the styles are just too
different and both men stay true to their genre.

--

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland


"Bruce Rowen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences
> between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things
> people get dressed behind.
> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
> finished in tung oil.
>
> Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
> hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.
>
> anyhoo,
> -Bruce
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
<snip>

>Amazing. Norm's a good guy despite his few ugly habits.
>

Norm is sort of like the Mr. Rogers of Woodworking. How could not like him?
I saw David Marks only once on the DIY promos on HGTV and he seemed OK, but
a bit impressed with himself if I remember. I was less than impressed with
the other DIY promos I've seen and certainly wouldn't request DIY from my
cable provider. The DIY quality of shows seem less than the "Other Marks"
(Jodie, the "shop bunny" with Pat Simpson on HGTV)and at least she's cuter
than David ;)

Brian <[email protected]> wrote in
<010220041143146044%[email protected]>:
<snip>
>PS. I'll take Norm over Marks any day. I don't need to be reminded of
>everything that he just got done doing every time he comes back from
>commercial (all the damn HGTV/DIY shows are like that, it so annoying
>and condesending)
<snip>

The recapping on the HGTV shows is inane and insulting. I only saw one
Marks promo, but if they are like that also then FURGETABOUTIT!

"Mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the week.
> He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for mama.........
>
>
>

Actually...

First of all, a silly, childish proposition.

However: Aw, never mind. Just go with what I said above.

Cheers,
Eric

"Bruce Rowen" wrote in message

> Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
> hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.

The effete in LaLa Land would probably tell you that Mark's "art" is worthy
of a "studio", Norm's "projects" come out of a "shop". ;>)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/23/04

"Bruce Rowen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George wrote:
> > Both hide your bare butt from passers-by?
> >
>
> Yep!
> If it was me I'd just staple some bed sheets to the ceiling 8^)
>
> My wife watched both episodes with me and commented that Norms creation
> looked good but was a bit "blocky". She usually hates the Marks
> creations (doesn't like his color choices) but thought his screen looked
> good. I was a bit surprised he didn't cover up the screw heads though...
>
> -Bruce
>

Can't comment on Mark's as I haven't seen it. Norm I caught by accident, it
was on at the parents, that's my excuse. IMHO comparing Norm's screen to the
antique his was based on, the antique has much nicer proportions. The
original had panels that were narrower, giving it an elegance that was
lacking in the repro. I'd like to see the measurements for them both and
compare.

Jeffo

Basspro* wrote:
> David Marks kicks Norm's ass any day of the week. If the two of them
> were to compete in a contest of making a specific type of furniture
> Mark's version would have cleaner lines and a better finish. ...



Two different people for two different audiences.


Let me know the next time you see Marks swinging a hammer on
a construction site.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
(S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Hitch wrote:
<snip>
>
> I don't think the purists really want to go back to the "good old days"
> where you chopped a tree down, bucked it with a hand saw, barked it with
> a spud, made planks with the pit saw (want to be on the bottom?),
> thicknessed the planks with your scrub plane, flattened them with your
> smooth plane, chopped all of your mortises and tenons with various
> chisels, and finally got to the point where you could clamp up your
> project. Man! It could take all day just to make a dresser!
>
> Let's just let up on Norm's use of power tools and admit that we like at
> least some of them (e.g., a planer). The only real advantage to being a
> complete Neander is that I don't think I ever saw an old photograph that
> had a fat woodworker in it. My gut would appreciate a little more
> handwork, even if my arms wouldn't.
>


Another aspect of the difference between Norm & Marks is that Norm's
projects are geared towards weekend warriors. The vast majority of his
projects are presented as being a single version completed in two days.
That time constraint also necessitates the use of power tools and the
relative absence of jigs.

Marks' work, in contrast, is not presented in a two day completion
format. His extensive use of patterns and jigs also suggest that many
copies of each piece will be produced. Marks is probably still making a
living as a woodworker. (He is probably making another living on TV :) )


It will be interesting to see how Marks will alter his presentation over
time as co-marketing opportunities present themselves. Norm is a crafty
old hand at squeezing project construction techniques and methods into
the tools and products of his paid sponsors.

Tim

--
No BoomBoom for me! - [email protected]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, [email protected] (Dave Mundt) wrote:

| Greetings and Salutations.
|
|On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:00:59 GMT, Brian Henderson
|<[email protected]> wrote:
|
|>On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:03:31 -0800, Hitch <[email protected]> wrote:
|>
|>>There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest
|>>complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and
|>>that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the
|>>power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster,
|>>more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to
|>>with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly
|>>or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it
|>>by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the
|>>shop and I need to work up a sweat.
|>
|>It isn't really that Norm uses power tools, but that he goes out of
|>his way to use power tools to the exclusion of all else. He'll use a
|>power tool even if it's easier to use a hand tool. The reason, of
|>course, is that the tool manufacturers are paying for the show so
|>he'll do the Tim Allen "MORE POWER" thing just to get more air time
|>for the manufacturers.
|
| And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about
|it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a
|utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes. I don't
|know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that the
|stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
|and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all,
|look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept
|that on even after Delta had discontinued it....
| As I have said before, I like Norm and his show, and, I
|think they occupy a valuable place in the world. Not only
|does it show folks that it is possible to do it, and, might
|generate interest in the hobby, but, it helps as a benchmark
|for how long a project might take, and, how many steps it has.
|There is room for both Marks and Abram on the air...and let's
|enjoy both the shows!

I got to chat with TOH's former host, Steve Thomas once. (Even have
his autographed book around here someplace.)

When asked about the show using materials that no one else could
afford and so forth, he replied that we must keep it in context, and
not forget that it's a "Television Show" and that means "Entertainment
for the average viewer."

I watch Norm and am entertained. I doubt that I would ever build one
of his projects. I'm in Tucson and most of his furniture will never be
at home in my house, and I 'm damn sure not going to put a garden
bench in my cactus patch.

Likewise after watching TOH I won't be laying any $10/sq ft Vermont
Bluestone slabs outside either. Brick pavers to match the floors in
the house maybe. And I don't have much trouble with ice dams either.

Bruce Rowen wrote:

> I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences
> between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things
> people get dressed behind.
> The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
> stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
> The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
> finished in tung oil.
>
> Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
> hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.
>
> anyhoo,
> -Bruce
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest
complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and
that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the
power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster,
more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to
with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly
or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it
by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the
shop and I need to work up a sweat.

I don't think the purists really want to go back to the "good old days"
where you chopped a tree down, bucked it with a hand saw, barked it with
a spud, made planks with the pit saw (want to be on the bottom?),
thicknessed the planks with your scrub plane, flattened them with your
smooth plane, chopped all of your mortises and tenons with various
chisels, and finally got to the point where you could clamp up your
project. Man! It could take all day just to make a dresser!

Let's just let up on Norm's use of power tools and admit that we like at
least some of them (e.g., a planer). The only real advantage to being a
complete Neander is that I don't think I ever saw an old photograph that
had a fat woodworker in it. My gut would appreciate a little more
handwork, even if my arms wouldn't.

--
Hitch

-Remove the NOSPAM from my address and you've got SPAM!-

Amen to that. I believe there is no better way to learn. It may take =
longer but you will know the craft from start to finish.
Puff

"mttt" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
>=20
> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:59:25 -0700, Bruce Rowen <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I just kinda helped sweep up for a little bit - he was better after =
I
> > got him some coffee.
>=20
> Bring back the notion of the "apprentice", I say!
>=20
> My dream is to squirrel away enough money so I can hang around shops =
like
> this when I retire. I'd gladly sweep/go-fer coffee just to watch =
craftsmen
> work.
>=20
>

Marks was on HGTV, but now is ONLY (as far as I know) on the DIY
network

Saw 4 or 5 episodes on HGTV, and considered him worth watching, but
now I cannot get him at all as both local cable companies do NOT carry
DIY - at least not yet

John

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:05:00 GMT, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I see all these messages about Marks, but don't think I've ever seen a show
>by him. What if any stations is he available on in Canada, specifically
>covering the Toronto area?
>
>I can get Norm, but not Marks.
>

"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In rec.woodworking
> "Eric Lund" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the
week.
> >> He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for
mama.........
> >>
> >
> >Actually...
> >
> >First of all, a silly, childish proposition.
> >
> >However: Aw, never mind. Just go with what I said above.
>
> I'll take the reins. I think Marks would kick Norm's ass. Norm is a fat
> outa shape guy and Marks could wear him out with a stick and move
> technique. Besides, didn't someone say that Marks is covering up all
kinds
> of jailhouse tattoos with those long sleeves and the wimpy demeanor is an
> act?

Yeah. He's also cut like a body builder, but not as bulky. And there's
really only one tatoo unless he has more under his shirt (or, dare I say,
pants).

I try to get into the spirit of the show that I am watching by using
the same techniques. The other day for instance, I was watching Norm
and I used the remote exclusively for changing the channel and
controlling the volume. Later in the day Roy Underwood came on and I
got up and used the buttons on the TV console if I needed to adjust
it.

The next day I was watching David Marks, so I got out the auxilliary
universal remote and had my kid work it for me.

-Chris

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:04:16 -0600, John Crea <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Marks was on HGTV, but now is ONLY (as far as I know) on the DIY
>network
>
>Saw 4 or 5 episodes on HGTV, and considered him worth watching, but
>now I cannot get him at all as both local cable companies do NOT carry
>DIY - at least not yet
>
>John
>

DIY is available on satellite, DirecTV or Dishnetwork.

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:47:00 GMT, "Eric Lund"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Norm is usually a stain and poly guy.

So?

>That's OK.

Oh, good.

>I've gone that route for some pieces, when it was appropriate.

When would that be? And when is it inappropriate? I'm really
interested in learning all the *rules* about finishing so I don't
appear an ignorant dolt.

>I TIVO all the NYW shows, and on a lot of the old reruns, Norm was a lot
>more respectful of the wood and the appropriate finish for the type of
>project he's doing.

Respectful of the wood? That sounds like Charles Grodin's line from
The Heartbreak Kid: "there's no deceit in the mashed potatoes." How
does the wood care whether you put tung oil, polyurethane, shellac, or
lacquer on it?

>Now he seems more likely to stain, poly and call it done.

Sounds good to me. Is there a problem with that approach?

>The finish Marks uses is not pure tung oil.

And this matters how?

>On the show, he uses a product by General Finishes called Seal-A-Cell, and
>when he wants a protective finish, he uses a topcoat of Arm-R-Seal.

Are you sure these are *appropriate* finishes?

>I've used these on one project and they are a fantastic finish. They are
>both oil based, but a blend of oils, not just tung.

Ahh, well, then...

>Of course, this finish is one he regularly would use anyway, but he does use
>a lot of different finishing techniques.

Uh, how can he "use a *lot* of different finishing techniques" yet
have one that he "regularly would use?"

>He demonstrated ammonia fuming on one show, though I disagree with his
>contention that household ammonia doesn't work. It's just slower.

Yet, even though you TIVO, you neglect to mention that Norm also
demonstrated fuming on one show.

>He's also used Potassium DiChromate on numerous shows.

Is that one of the *appropriate* ones? Is that one he "regularly would
use?"

>He also discussed using shellac and french polishing.

Since you TIVO, you are aware that Norm has also done that.

When I took up woodworking (longer ago than many of you have been
alive) I did it because the process was what made me happy. Because of
that I like to see wood cut, fitted, assembled, and secured. Norm does
all that. Marks does, too, but to a lesser degree because it's
necessary to accommodate all the ads for DIY, their website, and the
reminders of what's been done so far. So from standpoint of process,
they both make me happy. And they expose a lot of people to
woodworking, which also makes me happy.

What makes me unhappy is the few finishing snobs and fastening snobs
who try to impose their narrow (and often misguided) belief system on
people who probably need more help with getting parts properly
prepared and fitted than selecting a finish that "respects the wood."

And for those of us who can get our parts together, how about you use
your finish and I'll use mine. And if you don't agree with my (or
anyone else's) selection, just move on; don't regard us as hacks or
"disrespectful of the wood" for the choices WE made for OUR work.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 04:10:44 +0000, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:32:42 GMT, Brian Henderson
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>The shop itself is owned by Russell Morash.
>
>Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I mentioned his name.

Then why did you say it suggested ownership by Norm?

>>There isn't anything on NYW that's going to teach me new techniques or
>>craftsmanship,
>
>Then what's the point of watching? You know it all already, maybe you
>should do something else. The rest of us, who are not so accomplished
>as you, do find things to take away from each episode.

Can't remember the last time I watched Norm, to be honest. I don't
get PBS here and they pulled his shows off HGTV, so...

>>...but if Norm is going to be doing things the wrong way,
>>and his semi-automatic brad launcher, among other things, are simply
>>WRONG IMO,
>
>Well, your opinion doesn't agree with my opinion. And from reading
>another thread here in the last few hours, there are plenty of others
>who don't share that opinion, either.

And there are a lot who do. What's your point?

>>I'm more interested in seeing a beautiful piece of furniture that will
>>last generations, not in brads through the face frame "until the glue
>>dries"
>
>Apples and oranges. Using brads doesn't consign a work to a short
>life. Every method you use to join materials is only "until the glue
>dries." Apparently that phrase irritates you and you use it to justify
>indicting him for using those convenient and useful brads. How sad.

No, any more than whacking in 6d nails consigns a work to a short
life, but it makes the thing look ugly. Norm doesn't even pretend to
fill in the holes, he just polys over everything and calls it done.

>>and not every project can be done in a weekend.
>
>Of course it can't. What's your point? Norm does projects that are
>completed in a two day shoot. What's wrong with that? Just because I
>couldn't and maybe you couldn't get it done in a weekend is
>immaterial to anything. Do you approve of the two part projects?

It has nothing to do with what you or I can do, but with the
complexity of Norm's projects. He only takes on things that can be
done in 1-2 days. While there's nothing wrong with that, a lot of us
aren't beginners and that's primarily what Norm appeals to. You
eventually get to a point when craftsmanship is more important than
speed.

>And, miracle of miracles, doesn't Marks complete each project in one
>episode? Is that a one, two, three day shoot? I"ll bet you'll say if
>he does it in one, he's a hack; two he's a little less of a hack; if
>it's three or more, he's a fine craftsman.

Actually, some of his projects take weeks to finish and he says so.
There are times when he needs to put the finish away for quite some
time for it to complete.

>Why don't you cut to the chase and repeat after me:
>
>"My name is Brian and I'm a Norm hater."

I don't hate Norm, but he's not the end-all-be-all of woodworking that
many people make him out to be. He's a good start for the beginning
woodworker, he gets people interested, but he's something that most of
us outgrow eventually.

Maybe someday you'll even make it.

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:59:25 -0700, Bruce Rowen <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> I just kinda helped sweep up for a little bit - he was better after I
> got him some coffee.

Bring back the notion of the "apprentice", I say!

My dream is to squirrel away enough money so I can hang around shops like
this when I retire. I'd gladly sweep/go-fer coffee just to watch craftsmen
work.

"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Basspro* wrote:
> > David Marks kicks Norm's ass any day of the week. If the two of them
> > were to compete in a contest of making a specific type of furniture
> > Mark's version would have cleaner lines and a better finish. ...
>
>
>
> Two different people for two different audiences.
>
>
> Let me know the next time you see Marks swinging a hammer on
> a construction site.
>

Actually, he spent some time in carpentry. You guys think he's a spring
chicken because he looks young. He's 54 years old. He's been doing one
form or another of woodworking for over 30 years.

Cheers,
Eric

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, [email protected] (Dave Mundt) wrote:

> And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about
>it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a
>utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes. I don't
>know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that the
>stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
>and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all,
>look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept
>that on even after Delta had discontinued it....

There was an episode of This Old House where they went back to the
shop to make a door and they were making jokes about all the power
tools he was using there too. We all know that the tools on Norm's
show are on 'loan' from the companies that sponsor the show, unlike
David Marks' show where he owns them all and has no financial link to
any of the manufacturers.

> As I have said before, I like Norm and his show, and, I
>think they occupy a valuable place in the world. Not only
>does it show folks that it is possible to do it, and, might
>generate interest in the hobby, but, it helps as a benchmark
>for how long a project might take, and, how many steps it has.
>There is room for both Marks and Abram on the air...and let's
>enjoy both the shows!

I do enjoy both shows, but as time has gone on, I've found less
interest in tool-centric Norm and his weekend warrior projects and
more in the David Marks style show where you learn craftsmanship
rather than shooting brads like they're going out of style. Certainly
there is room for both shows and both hosts are good people, certainly
better than the wood butchery of another Min-Wax Mastermind I could
name.

I see all these messages about Marks, but don't think I've ever seen a show
by him. What if any stations is he available on in Canada, specifically
covering the Toronto area?

I can get Norm, but not Marks.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:03:31 -0800, Hitch <[email protected]> wrote:

>There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest
>complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and
>that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the
>power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster,
>more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to
>with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly
>or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it
>by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the
>shop and I need to work up a sweat.

It isn't really that Norm uses power tools, but that he goes out of
his way to use power tools to the exclusion of all else. He'll use a
power tool even if it's easier to use a hand tool. The reason, of
course, is that the tool manufacturers are paying for the show so
he'll do the Tim Allen "MORE POWER" thing just to get more air time
for the manufacturers.

In article <[email protected]>,
"Eric Lund" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Basspro* wrote:
> > > David Marks kicks Norm's ass any day of the week. If the two of them
> > > were to compete in a contest of making a specific type of furniture
> > > Mark's version would have cleaner lines and a better finish. ...
> >
> >
> >
> > Two different people for two different audiences.
> >
> >
> > Let me know the next time you see Marks swinging a hammer on
> > a construction site.
> >
>
> Actually, he spent some time in carpentry. You guys think he's a spring
> chicken because he looks young. He's 54 years old. He's been doing one
> form or another of woodworking for over 30 years.
>
> Cheers,
> Eric

Why even try to compare Norm and Mark? They both approach woodworking
from a different point of view.

Norm is carpenter in terms of building construction as well as a finish
carpenter. Additionally, he's a cabinet maker. His joinery is as
traditionl as Marks.

They both get to the same place by a different route. And I'm not at all
convinced that Marks gets a better finish than Norm on everything,
especially since he uses basically one finish, Tung Oil. I'm not against
Tung Oil since I use it as well. But I can get a far better repairable
finish on antiques and furntinure with Flecto Varithane Natural Oil with
the way I apply it. Norm seems to use Poly, Oil and other finishes to
show the viewer what options there are.

Last I have a great appreciation for both. I think Norm has a knowledge
of things that Marks can't touch when it comes to homes, built-in's and
some of the more difficult repairs that one can encounter in a home.

David Marks is more what I'd call a "fine-art" woodworker. He makes his
projects as much "Fine Art" as they are a cabinet or woodworking
project.

So I'd have to say it's not exactly a level comparison. A difficult one
at best. But, you can take the best of what each does and learn from it
and bring that to your efforts and projects. That's what these shows are
about. If I were to guess, I'd bet they have quite a respect for each
other.

I figure I can learn something from them both and just have more
knowledge and things in my bag of tricks.

I had to replace what turned out to be a "Housed" newel post on my
staircase. If I hadn't watched Norm, I don't think I'd of had as ease a
time doing this as I might have otherwise. Unlike the builder, I used
quartered oak and make a lovely newel.

just my .02

--
Jim Polaski
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return."

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:51:18 +0000, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm not sure that's entirely true. Watching the show from the
>beginning it was clear that the early Elu, Craftsman, Makita, Bostich,
>and other tools were certainly not new, suggesting ownership by either
>Norm or Russell Morash.

The shop itself is owned by Russell Morash.

>So does tools-on-loan somehow diminish the value of Norm's product?
>It's not like it's a RotoZip informercial. Just off the top of my
>head, I don't think I've ever heard Norm call a tool by its brand
>name. That contrasts sharply with Boob Vila constantly inserting the
>manufacturer's name of every tool (and product) that's being used on
>his show.

That's because he's not allowed to. If he started naming brand names,
PBS wouldn't air the show anymore. That's why all the brand names are
taped over as well. It certainly wasn't Norm's idea.

However, I do think not being "owned" by your corporate sponsors is a
good thing. Instead of having to show off the latest products for the
guys paying the bills, you just get to focus on woodworking, which is
exactly what David Marks does, IMO. That's not to say that Norm is
bad, he's just not at the same level as David, nor does he try to be.

>Geez if you watch a typical 24 minute episode of NYW and all you come
>away with is the few seconds of brad nailer use, you're missing a
>whole lot of craftsmanship and other good ideas.

There isn't anything on NYW that's going to teach me new techniques or
craftsmanship, but if Norm is going to be doing things the wrong way,
and his semi-automatic brad launcher, among other things, are simply
WRONG IMO, it lessens the show. This is supposed to be woodworking,
not hammering things together. If I wanted to see that, I'd watch
Bruce Johnson.

I'm more interested in seeing a beautiful piece of furniture that will
last generations, not in brads through the face frame "until the glue
dries" and a quick coat of poly. I want to see it done right, not
done quick. Craftsmanship takes time and not every project can be
done in a weekend.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:51:18 +0000, LRod <[email protected]> brought
forth from the murky depths:

>>I do enjoy both shows, but as time has gone on, I've found less
>>interest in tool-centric Norm and his weekend warrior projects and
>>more in the David Marks style show where you learn craftsmanship
>>rather than shooting brads like they're going out of style.
>
>Geez if you watch a typical 24 minute episode of NYW and all you come
>away with is the few seconds of brad nailer use, you're missing a
>whole lot of craftsmanship and other good ideas.

It's the combo of

1) excess glue smeared onto the wood with a wet rag,
2) beaucoup brads, and
3) poly slathered on top of that

which gets to me.

I recently finished his "Measure Twice, Cut Once" book and was
astounded that the entire book was devoted to tailless tools.
Amazing. Norm's a good guy despite his few ugly habits.


----------------------------------------------
CAUTION: Driver Legally B l o n d (e)
http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development
=======================================================

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, [email protected] (Dave Mundt) wrote:

> And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about
>it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a
>utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes.

Why wouldn't he? With no intent on his part, his name, in the
woodworking world of the internet, has become synonymous with the use
of power tools. I'd probably have some fun with that, too. By the way,
for all the heat he takes about the use of power tools, he has used a
surprising array of hand tools a surprising number of times. My site
has a "neanderthal" section for most of those tools-without-tails he's
used.

>I don't know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that
>the stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
>and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly.

He has stated that several times. Not so much LIKE (although I'm sure
that's part of it) but that stand up to the use of a pro environment.
Some interesting examples:

* He always seems to return to the Lamello biscuit joiner, even after
having used a DeWalt and both Porter-Cables. He even used the second
P-C on the same episode as the Lamello.

* He has used the P-C brad nailer a few times but he keeps going back
to the Senco SLP20.

* He has used the Bosch jigsaw since the beginning of the second
season despite the appearances of both Hitachi and P-C jigsaws a
couple of times.

* The Makita D-handle router stayed in view on a regular basis for
SEVEN years after the P-C 691 D-handle first appeared.

* He flipped back and forth on the Biesemeyer fence (after using the
Unifence for five seasons).

* Even though he generally uses the Leigh dovetail jig, he has trotted
out the Omnijig on several occasions.

* It's amazing how many different planers he's used. Ryobi, Makita,
Hitachi, Powermatic, four Deltas, and one I never could identify.
There has been quite a bit of overlap in their appearances.

On my website I arbitrarily set a threshold of 50 appearances of a
tool on NYW to get into my "Hall of Fame" (my site; I get to set the
threshold). In the 15+ seasons the show has been on, over 280 tools
have been used in nearly 200 episodes, and only 20 of them have made
my Hall.

Interestingly, eight of those twenty are/were not made by
Delta/Porter-Cable. I guess that sort of settles the question about
manufacturer driven, at least as far as the actual sponsors go.

I'm sure the Timesavers sander is there for the promotional value, but
they (Timesavers) certainly have to understand that the target
audience of NYW isn't going to be a huge source of sales for them.

Other, lesser tools like the Jack Rabbit drill/driver, the Lamello,
and the Senco brad nailer (two of those are non-sponsor HoFers) might
produce more revenue generating value from their use.

But at the end of the day, I think a lot of his tool use is in spite
of manufacturer input. I think the Bosch jigsaw is the best example.
He's used it for 15 years. With all the shop rash, it looks like the
same one (although I know for sure he's gotten at least one newer
one). If Bosch was really promoting it, you'd think he'd get a new one
every season or so.

>After all, look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer.

Just a miter saw; not compound.

>He kept that on even after Delta had discontinued it....

Nine seasons, as a matter of fact, and it was a Porter-Cable, not a
Delta. The new one is a Delta (and compound), however.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

how 'bout Norm and Marks = don't they both have something we can gain from??

"Wes Stewart" <n7ws@_arrl.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, [email protected] (Dave Mundt) wrote:
>
> | Greetings and Salutations.
> |
> |On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:00:59 GMT, Brian Henderson
> |<[email protected]> wrote:
> |
> |>On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:03:31 -0800, Hitch <[email protected]> wrote:
> |>
> |>>There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest
> |>>complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and
> |>>that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the
> |>>power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster,
> |>>more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to
> |>>with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly
> |>>or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it
> |>>by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in
the
> |>>shop and I need to work up a sweat.
> |>
> |>It isn't really that Norm uses power tools, but that he goes out of
> |>his way to use power tools to the exclusion of all else. He'll use a
> |>power tool even if it's easier to use a hand tool. The reason, of
> |>course, is that the tool manufacturers are paying for the show so
> |>he'll do the Tim Allen "MORE POWER" thing just to get more air time
> |>for the manufacturers.
> |
> | And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about
> |it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a
> |utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes. I don't
> |know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that the
> |stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
> |and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all,
> |look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept
> |that on even after Delta had discontinued it....
> | As I have said before, I like Norm and his show, and, I
> |think they occupy a valuable place in the world. Not only
> |does it show folks that it is possible to do it, and, might
> |generate interest in the hobby, but, it helps as a benchmark
> |for how long a project might take, and, how many steps it has.
> |There is room for both Marks and Abram on the air...and let's
> |enjoy both the shows!
>
> I got to chat with TOH's former host, Steve Thomas once. (Even have
> his autographed book around here someplace.)
>
> When asked about the show using materials that no one else could
> afford and so forth, he replied that we must keep it in context, and
> not forget that it's a "Television Show" and that means "Entertainment
> for the average viewer."
>
> I watch Norm and am entertained. I doubt that I would ever build one
> of his projects. I'm in Tucson and most of his furniture will never be
> at home in my house, and I 'm damn sure not going to put a garden
> bench in my cactus patch.
>
> Likewise after watching TOH I won't be laying any $10/sq ft Vermont
> Bluestone slabs outside either. Brick pavers to match the floors in
> the house maybe. And I don't have much trouble with ice dams either.

Of course, the original miter saw with Laser was PC, not a Delta

John

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:53:06 -0600, [email protected] (p_j) wrote:

>Dave Mundt <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I do know that the
>> stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time
>> and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all,
>> look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept
>> that on even after Delta had discontinued it....
>
>They've got one out (a newer version?) and they advertise it as the one
>that Norm uses...
>
>I've heard some positive comments about the newer one without the laser,
>but with the double bevel and the crown stops.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:30:57 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:


>We all know that the tools on Norm's show are on 'loan' from the
>companies that sponsor the show,

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Watching the show from the
beginning it was clear that the early Elu, Craftsman, Makita, Bostich,
and other tools were certainly not new, suggesting ownership by either
Norm or Russell Morash.

Over the years there have been several other tools that appear to have
that same genesis, e.g. the Rockwell jointer and the Powermatic
planer, just to name a couple. Even the original Unisaw was an old
Rockwell. I think Delta's acquisition of Rockwell predated the first
NYW, so where did it come from? I'm not saying they're all owned by
the show, but they certainly aren't all "loaners."

>unlike David Marks' show where he owns them all and has no
>financial link to any of the manufacturers.

So does tools-on-loan somehow diminish the value of Norm's product?
It's not like it's a RotoZip informercial. Just off the top of my
head, I don't think I've ever heard Norm call a tool by its brand
name. That contrasts sharply with Boob Vila constantly inserting the
manufacturer's name of every tool (and product) that's being used on
his show.

>I do enjoy both shows, but as time has gone on, I've found less
>interest in tool-centric Norm and his weekend warrior projects and
>more in the David Marks style show where you learn craftsmanship
>rather than shooting brads like they're going out of style.

Geez if you watch a typical 24 minute episode of NYW and all you come
away with is the few seconds of brad nailer use, you're missing a
whole lot of craftsmanship and other good ideas.


LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:59:25 -0700, Bruce Rowen <[email protected]>
wrote:

The best wooddorker that I've ever met (I've never properly met Mike
Hide but he's prolly in this fellas league) has a shop about two miles
from my place.

It has a big-ass tablesaw (Wadkin), a big-ass bandsaw (there's not one
thing on it that indicates who made it), 30 inch planer of unknown
parentage, and a Delta Cabinet Shop Shaper (The Ultimate Router
Table).

There's some other crap around there, a twelve inch jointer and some
other old-big iron, including a lathe that will turn something as long
as twenty feet - but I don't know why and neither does he.

I don't believe that any of these machines are newer than the 1930's.

The shopowner won't say. He says that they've always just been there.

The stuff that this man turns out is amazing. He mostly does
historical reproductions but does some "historical re-imaginings" that
are flat out priceless (that ain't quite true - the last one that I
saw was a cherry highboy that went for almost twelve grand).

I once asked him if he'd ever considered having a TV show come in and
do a segment on him.

Damned near got me kicked out of the shop.

"I take two hundred hours to make a piece and them TV knuckleheads
would turn it into fifteen minutes of bullshit !"

I just kinda helped sweep up for a little bit - he was better after I
got him some coffee.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

The time I compared Mark to Norm I was chastised as being a troll.
Watch yourself.

While I liked Norms screen, I found Dave's a little more attractive
due to the color choices. If I were to build my own I'd make 'em look
like shoji.

In this particular case it's a strictly a choice of style. It's a
horse apiece.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:59:25 -0700, Bruce Rowen <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences
>between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things
>people get dressed behind.
>The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red
>stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane.
>The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels
>finished in tung oil.
>
>Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a
>hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.
>
>anyhoo,
>-Bruce
>
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In rec.woodworking
> "Eric Lund" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the
week.
> >> He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for
mama.........
> >>
> >
> >Actually...
> >
> >First of all, a silly, childish proposition.
> >
> >However: Aw, never mind. Just go with what I said above.
>
> I'll take the reins. I think Marks would kick Norm's ass. Norm is a fat
> outa shape guy and Marks could wear him out with a stick and move
> technique. Besides, didn't someone say that Marks is covering up all
kinds
> of jailhouse tattoos with those long sleeves and the wimpy demeanor is an
> act?

Norm's not so out of shape these days... When I met him last summer he
mentioned that he'd lost 40 lbs. If you see him in the new 2004 season shows
he looks trim.

John