I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
offs would be at least $1,000.00.
Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:48:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>
>Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>
>I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
Leon, the thought just occurred to me that you could use unistrut,
with a pair of rollers but instead of using the rollers on a vertical
install, use them on a horizontal or sideways install.
https://www.grainger.com/category/strut-channel/strut-channel-and-accessories/wire-cable-and-carrier-systems/electrical/ecatalog/N-10wu?searchRedirect=unistrut
And a couple trolley's.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNISTRUT-P2751-Wheel-Light-Duty-Trolley-/351906280819?hash=item51ef3fb573:g:hxoAAOSwA3dYK1O0
You could make a silicone plastic slide to grip the underside of the
Unistrut effectively keeping the wheels in contact with the Unistrut.
and then bolt a ladder to the whole assembly. Then make a simple wheel
setup for the bottom of the ladder. with a little bit of work, and
painted to match or contrast your book cases it should cost total less
than 150, I'd think. And should last until the house fell down.
On 4/21/2017 2:19 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 4:36:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>> FWIW I copy part of my drawing to a blank area and move the parts
>> apart for reference/clarification.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/34124992416/in/dateposted-public/
>>
>>
>>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/34008345082/in/dateposted-public/
>
> OK, now see... that's what he needs. First, thanks on his behalf
> (and mine) for taking the time to write out a detailed reply. If he
> could generate those drawings for cabinets (which occasionally he
> builds them for an install) he could speed up his production XX
> times. He has to do the work to figure out the start dimensions
> anyway, so why not let the program finalize all measurements,
> modifications, and generate the drawings to exact scale?
>
> Plus, Swing showed me that he could design and offset gable when
> designing a roof profile that would incredibly measure the correct
> pitch angle (in degrees) for the main rafters! How cool is that? He
> had a couple of adds on his that he showed me, but with my knowledge
> of framing (and my handy span table book) I could design a roof
> structure in minutes, and best of all, let the client see a drawing
> of my work. Another sidebar... I don't design anything but small
> structural objects these days as the litigious society we live in
> precludes me from doing so without a State license. One small
> mistake or the perception of a mistake and it would be off to court
> for me "playing engineer". Clients pay for the engineer, he stamps
> the drawing, and Robert builds as directed.
>
> However, that certainly doesn't nullify the tremendous utility value
> of a good drawing. Thanks again, I will pass this on (again).
>
> Robert
>
Now keep this is mind. Swingman uses the Pro version and that will set
you back 7~8 hundred dollars. I use the free version and it takes a bit
longer to modify a component. And in an environment where time is money
you want to modify as quickly as possible.
If I were doing this for a living, I would be using the pro version.
But you know what I do this for. ;~)
The pro version offers many enhancements that Swingman uses. For
instance the cabinet should fit a certain space and you find out the
cabinet needs to be a different size. I have to modify certain
elements, Swingman, I think, only has to change the properties of the
cabinet. The pro version uses "dynamic" components that can change much
more quickly if needed. The free version only uses "normal" components.
With dynamic components only certain pieces/components will change size.
To confuse matters even more, LOL, Lets say you are drawing a cabinet
door used from measurements in the field. Make the separate pieces of
the cabinet into components and finally make all of those components
into a single component called a door.
With dynamic components when you modify the "door" component the width
of the rails and stiles may stay the same but their lengths may change.
All in all I would advise for your friend to start with the free version
and upgrade to the pro version as he becomes proficient with the program
and his productivity/demand increases.
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 4:36:29 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
=20
> FWIW I copy part of my drawing to a blank area and move the parts apart=
=20
> for reference/clarification.
>=20
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/34124992416/in/dateposted-public/
>=20
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/34008345082/in/dateposted-public/
OK, now see... that's what he needs. First, thanks on his behalf (and mine=
) for taking the time to write out a detailed reply. If he could generate =
those drawings for cabinets (which occasionally he builds them for an insta=
ll) he could speed up his production XX times. He has to do the work to fi=
gure out the start dimensions anyway, so why not let the program finalize a=
ll measurements, modifications, and generate the drawings to exact scale?
Plus, Swing showed me that he could design and offset gable when designing =
a roof profile that would incredibly measure the correct pitch angle (in de=
grees) for the main rafters! How cool is that? He had a couple of adds on=
his that he showed me, but with my knowledge of framing (and my handy span=
table book) I could design a roof structure in minutes, and best of all, l=
et the client see a drawing of my work. Another sidebar... I don't design =
anything but small structural objects these days as the litigious society w=
e live in precludes me from doing so without a State license. One small mi=
stake or the perception of a mistake and it would be off to court for me "p=
laying engineer". Clients pay for the engineer, he stamps the drawing, and =
Robert builds as directed.
However, that certainly doesn't nullify the tremendous utility value of a g=
ood drawing. Thanks again, I will pass this on (again).
Robert
OFWW <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> The guy is so used to 2d drawings that he might be better off with a
> 2d Cad type program. It would be more familiar to his style and once
> he got used to the commands, and just redoing his basic prints for
> mods, and finds how simple it is then He might feel better moving to a
> 3D program.
>
*snip*
That's how I started. I used a program called CadStd, and still do use
it, that got me started about lines being a certain length and things in
a coordinate system.
From that point on, it was easy to translate the skills into Sketchup and
also into CamBam for my mill. Sketchup can read DAE files, which CadStd
can export.
If you're strong on mechanical 2D drafting, CadStd will probably be easy
to pick up. If you're used to more art-like drawing, another program may
work better.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 10:02:42 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
=20
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/31911321324/in/dateposted-public/
=20
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/33774796310/in/dateposted-public/
Leon - how long did it take you to complete your drawings? I have a friend=
of mine that owns a small remodeling company that just can't get it kick s=
tarted. He has been in the business now for many years, and does indeed kn=
ow what he is doing.=20
As a sidebar, he has a degree in business that was a double major. He went=
to a school in CA that had a degree (that had to be coupled with business)=
in cabinet building. So when he graduated he was fully qualified to run a=
ll aspects of a cabinet shop, and was trained to do all aspects of the work=
needed from using the shaper to accounts receivable management.
He hated working with only one or two guys in the shop, and he loathed work=
ing alone.
This is a guy I spoke to you about before, one that you generously allowed =
me to send some of your renderings (along with Swing) to him. He was pumpe=
d up, as he was still doing his drawings by hand. I had lunch with him a wh=
ile back, and he had not finished his online Sketchup courses, and was star=
ting to forget what he had learned. Now you sent me the renderings almost =
two years ago, so I figured he would be whizzing along with his sketches by=
now.
I can't get him to understand that using Sketchup is like me using a public=
ation program, a word processor, or any other kind of layering program. Ce=
rtainly the end product is the goal, but using software, the end product is=
achieved in a very efficient manner. To me, the key to learning to use an=
y program that will produce a finished product is the complete ease of endl=
ess editing. After watching you and Karl, I opined to my buddy that this w=
as no harder than learning the photo editor I use, the publisher I use, or =
the advanced features of my word processor. He was enthusiastic as hell!
Now, we meet again, and he has fallen on his old ways. It takes him weeks =
to render new drawings, days to redraw a detail or two, then it has to be s=
canned, compressed and checked for readability if he wants to email it. Ot=
herwise, he has to hand carry drawings he paid to have printed over to the =
client and the doodle their changes on the newest renderings and start agai=
n. This is the way business was done for decades, but not now, nor had it =
been done this way for about 10 years. He is rapidly falling not just behi=
nd, but out of the race altogether.
I would like to make one more pass at him, send him the drawings you publis=
hed here, and some commentary from you on how long it took you to do those.=
If this doesn't work, I give up. He is literally losing business as he s=
ees himself as a "traditionalist", and he thinks folks like to see his hand=
drawings. Actually, the probably do, just not a month after he makes his =
changes.
He needs the level of detail that you can generate with your drawings as he=
always finds clients that are cabinet/built in heavy. Otherwise he could =
get one of the many pieces of software out there (some free!) that allow yo=
u to move walls and cabinets around in a rudimentary way with pretty render=
ings.
Just a few words, sir. I am worried that my buddy will be out of business =
soon, as he won't move into this century. His other problem being that he =
doesn't know how to promote his company makes his lack of technology a kill=
er.
Robert
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 5:32:17 PM UTC-5, OFWW wrote:
>
>> The guy is so used to 2d drawings that he might be better off with a
>> 2d Cad type program. It would be more familiar to his style and once
>> he got used to the commands, and just redoing his basic prints for
>> mods, and finds how simple it is then He might feel better moving to a
>> 3D program.
>
>He needs 3d, and he needs it now. There aren't that many remodeling companies here in town, but they all have a draftsman, usually a man/woman in their early 20s that took a lot of drafting in college and are working part time. His competition can get out great drawings fast, and in many cases they can generate some simple drawings at their first meeting. Some of today's programs are so easy to use that the sales guys use them on a laptop when they go on site. If they do a rendered drawing with dimensions somewhere along the line, they watermark the drawing and charge the client for their time.
>
>Check this out and click the play button on the small screen that is NEXT TO the button that says "get started":
>
>http://www.roomsketcher.com/home-design-software/
>
There doesn't seem much he can't use there for re mod ideas. Just
requires being only and their premium package allows you to brand the
software, or so it seems, while you use it. That could sure land a job
onsite with a customer, and then go back and use SketchUp with the
layers etc. or he could hire a draftsman to work off the drawings on
that sketcher program along with the notes for the customer.
You are absolutely correct that it could be a game changer.
Maybe you should go with him to a job site using the program off a
tablet with a link to a cell phone or whatever, and work with him as
an advisor on one job to help land it. Either it would pique his
interest, or he could hire you as a consultant? Just a thought. ;)
>This is his competition. This is what the other companies are armed with. He needs a program like this to show his clients he is in the same century as his competition, and he needs to build his fluency to make sure he can whiz through it on site. BTW... that's just the first one I clicked on when I GSed "free 2d remodeling software". There are dozens other, most giving a free working edition for a short time, or a free version stripped of some handy or necessary tools.
>
>He needs that so the clients can visualize. But, for his own use he needs Sketchup. Leon and Swing have both showed me drawings that are killer when you are the one building from them, and better yet, if you find a job discrepancy when using their drawings, you call and say "hey... don't know what happened, but we have 174 3/4" across that wall, not 186 3/8" Could you send me drawings that reflect that overall measurement? Leave the drawer banks and the kitchen base the same, and take it out over the span of the other carcasses". Then they say, give me some time to get to the computer. You will have your drawings tonight." And you know that all the door sizes will be changed, the base units will be correctly dimensioned, etc.
>
>I carry my laptop 99% of the time, and so should he. I regularly pull into McDonald's to get a cup of joe, and modify my reports, annotate pictures, edit pictures and text (some are several legal pages long) add commentary etc., then resend to my clients. I also write change orders, final bills, progress draws, opinions, estimates for work and anything else I need to right on the spot. Depending on the job and how involved I am on a given day, I am known to set up on a job, work on my paperwork, save it all, then at lunch/dinner/home, somewhere with wireless, and send it all out in multiple emails I have written as drafts.
>
>The competition is fierce, and now rapid, quality service for a client is more important than ever before. You can bet your butt if I was doing full time remodeling I would bring my traveling office and software suites wherever I needed it, and would probably buy a big screen laptop for presentations.
>
>Honestly, I can't figure what is holding him back. He is a smart guy, he isn't some Luddite, he just can't get out of his rut. If he doesn't, he will fail and that will be a shame.
>
>Robert
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:36:45 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/17/2017 4:22 PM, Markem wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:48:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>>
>>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>>
>>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>>
>> Could you build a ladder holder (not sure of the nomenclature) to hang
>> it on one wall or the other so it sits fith the climbing side towards
>> the wall.
>>
>
>Not sure what you are asking and or addressing.
Trying to relate an idea and not succeeding.
On 4/17/2017 2:57 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 4/17/2017 12:27 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>>>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>>>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>>>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>>>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>>>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>>>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>>>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>>>
>>>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>>>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>>>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>>>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>>>
>>> http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00235
>>>
>>> Use the 4-to-1 rule: Make sure the ladder is 1 foot away from the
>>> wall for every 4 feet that the ladder rises. For example, if the
>>> ladder touches the wall 16 feet above the ground, the feet/base of
>>> the ladder should be 4 feet from the wall. If you are going to climb
>>> onto a roof, the ladder should extend 3 feet higher than the roof.
>>> The upper and lower sections of an extension ladder should overlap to
>>> provide stability.
>>>
>>> -or-
>>>
>>> 75deg -- Figure 13-1: Ladder Angle:
>>> http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/296_97_10
>>>
>>
>> Thank you! My current allowance is 18" for 108" and I thought that
>> looked way to unstable.
>
> Yep, 108/4 = 27"
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEuHUcWQGY0
>
27" is my new calculation! Thanks again.
On 4/17/2017 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Wow... a lot of good info flying around today. I will be keeping
> that ladder safety pdf. I do some consulting, and that is a great
> summary of ladder safety and use.
No kidding! ;~)
>
> Leon, you might want to take a look at the "unistrut" suggestion from
> OFWW. Check with your local electrical supply house under the name
> of "Kindorf" since that is the way they sell it. I pay about $60 for
> a 10' stick, and that would take care of your length. The trolley
> wheels make that workable for you as you can modify them to be a face
> mount on your ladder itself.
>
> On the backside of the ladder you could mount a couple of workbench
> wheels that would allow easy movement of the ladder. Tons of them on
> Amazon:
>
> https://goo.gl/aydc19
>
> You could mount some wheels to the bottom of your ladder sides, and
> then put some adhesive in the bearings so they didn't swivel, but
> rolled freely on a straight line:
>
> https://goo.gl/LLBg0H
>
> You could get these, put rubber feet on the bottom of the sides of
> the ladder, and lock them up to move the ladder (3/4" lift) and then
> roll your ladder in place. Again, swivel to straight line rolling and
> easy cure.
>
> https://goo.gl/GplKkp
>
> If you want an underwire buy 1/4" all thread. HD has it cheap,
> something like 3 bucks a stick. You can groove the bottom of your
> steps to receive at least part of the radius (or not) and finish the
> ends of the all thread with an end cap nut over a washer. Lay out
> all your hardware and spray paint it the color you want before
> assembly. If you mortise your steps into the sides (really Robert...
> it's Leon... it will be dovetail mortised and Dominoed... !!!) then
> you can assemble with all thread only and no other attachment needed
> except maybe a high viscosity glue for the end grain (step) to long
> grain joint above the all thread.
I was actually thinking of using a piece of wood on the back side of the
legs to keep the legs from spreading and to reinforce each step.
>
> One thing I would certainly do that is cheap and easy would be to
> build a mock up ladder out of 2X4. That way you can check for
> clearance, ease of use, step distances and verify your dimensions.
> You could build a lean to mock up with $10 worth of material, and a
> nail gun in minutes, knock down after you are happy and use the 2X4
> parts for something else.
After considering the weight of about 18' of 1x8 white oak I may just
use 2x4's for the legs and 1x4's for the steps and some knarley nails!
LOL That is a good idea though because the bottom of the latter will
project about 40 inches into the room at the bottom. The ladder will
lean in 27" + the depth of the top cabinets, about 13" and stand off
from the wall..... The weight of the white oak is starting to concern
me and I may have to go with the wheeled route...
I would really love to keep this simple.
Hell I may have to bring the 9' ladder in through the window...;~(
Maybe a remote controlled wench on a ceiling track. I could hook on to
my back belt loop. ;~0
I have to get the cabinets up on the file cabinets and hang the bridge
up over the entry doors first...
>
> Love to see what your final decision will be.
>
> Robert
>
On 4/17/2017 4:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:48:57 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>
>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>
>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>
> Are you getting younger or older? Conserving space and storing the ladder
> out of the way sounds like a great idea now, but how about 10 years out?
Yeah, I already discovered that the ladder will not stow away beside the
cabinets and moving a 9' ladder in to the hallway through the kitchen
and somewhere else is not going to be fun.
.....Maybe I will buy a 16' aluminum extension ladder. ;~)
>
> We're getting designs for a new front stoop and walkway. 2 steps for the
> stoop and then another up into the house. One of my criteria for the design
> is the ability to add a railing at a later date.
>
On 4/17/2017 9:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>
> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>
> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
I have been reading about your library and ladder project.
It seems like you are planning on building a ladder that is about 9 feet
tall. I would like to point out that it does not really need to be that
tall. If I assume that your ceilings are 10 feet and that you are 5 foot
6 inches, then the highest step that you could possibly use is only 4
and 1/2 feet off of the floor. Otherwise you would be hitting your head
on the ceiling.
In your situation, I would consider building something that is only
about 4 feet tall. Something this size would not dominate the room or
block your view of the contents of your shelves like a taller ladder would.
I would want something to act as a hand rail for stability. This could
be either something attached to one side of the shorter ladder or,
perhaps, some sort of rails attached directly to the bookshelves either
horizontally or vertically.
Dan
On 4/17/2017 1:27 PM, OFWW wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:48:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>
>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>
>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>
> Leon, the thought just occurred to me that you could use unistrut,
> with a pair of rollers but instead of using the rollers on a vertical
> install, use them on a horizontal or sideways install.
>
>
> https://www.grainger.com/category/strut-channel/strut-channel-and-accessories/wire-cable-and-carrier-systems/electrical/ecatalog/N-10wu?searchRedirect=unistrut
>
>
> And a couple trolley's.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNISTRUT-P2751-Wheel-Light-Duty-Trolley-/351906280819?hash=item51ef3fb573:g:hxoAAOSwA3dYK1O0
>
> You could make a silicone plastic slide to grip the underside of the
> Unistrut effectively keeping the wheels in contact with the Unistrut.
> and then bolt a ladder to the whole assembly. Then make a simple wheel
> setup for the bottom of the ladder. with a little bit of work, and
> painted to match or contrast your book cases it should cost total less
> than 150, I'd think. And should last until the house fell down.
>
Thank you, That is something I'll put some consideration into...
On 4/17/2017 12:27 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>
>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>
>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>
> http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00235
>
> Use the 4-to-1 rule: Make sure the ladder is 1 foot away from the
> wall for every 4 feet that the ladder rises. For example, if the
> ladder touches the wall 16 feet above the ground, the feet/base of
> the ladder should be 4 feet from the wall. If you are going to climb
> onto a roof, the ladder should extend 3 feet higher than the roof.
> The upper and lower sections of an extension ladder should overlap to
> provide stability.
>
> -or-
>
> 75deg -- Figure 13-1: Ladder Angle:
> http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/296_97_10
>
Thank you! My current allowance is 18" for 108" and I thought that
looked way to unstable.
On 4/17/2017 2:04 PM, tdacon wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>
> Leon, Rockler has the hardware for a rolling library ladder for half
> your estimate. Here's a link:
>
> http://www.rockler.com/rockler-classic-rolling-library-ladder-hardware-kit-satin-black
>
>
> Tom
>
ahhh. I went through that kit build again and the hardware is about
$700. I must have remembered with pricing with the wood included. That
adds $400. If I supply the wood I can get the price down to $800.
Still kinda pricey.. ;~( BUT going in the right direction.
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 5:32:17 PM UTC-5, OFWW wrote:
=20
> The guy is so used to 2d drawings that he might be better off with a
> 2d Cad type program. It would be more familiar to his style and once
> he got used to the commands, and just redoing his basic prints for
> mods, and finds how simple it is then He might feel better moving to a
> 3D program.
He needs 3d, and he needs it now. There aren't that many remodeling compan=
ies here in town, but they all have a draftsman, usually a man/woman in the=
ir early 20s that took a lot of drafting in college and are working part ti=
me. His competition can get out great drawings fast, and in many cases the=
y can generate some simple drawings at their first meeting. Some of today'=
s programs are so easy to use that the sales guys use them on a laptop when=
they go on site. If they do a rendered drawing with dimensions somewhere =
along the line, they watermark the drawing and charge the client for their =
time.
Check this out and click the play button on the small screen that is NEXT T=
O the button that says "get started":
http://www.roomsketcher.com/home-design-software/
This is his competition. This is what the other companies are armed with. =
He needs a program like this to show his clients he is in the same century=
as his competition, and he needs to build his fluency to make sure he can =
whiz through it on site. BTW... that's just the first one I clicked on whe=
n I GSed "free 2d remodeling software". There are dozens other, most giving=
a free working edition for a short time, or a free version stripped of som=
e handy or necessary tools.
He needs that so the clients can visualize. But, for his own use he needs =
Sketchup. Leon and Swing have both showed me drawings that are killer when=
you are the one building from them, and better yet, if you find a job disc=
repancy when using their drawings, you call and say "hey... don't know what=
happened, but we have 174 3/4" across that wall, not 186 3/8" Could you s=
end me drawings that reflect that overall measurement? Leave the drawer ba=
nks and the kitchen base the same, and take it out over the span of the oth=
er carcasses". Then they say, give me some time to get to the computer. Y=
ou will have your drawings tonight." And you know that all the door sizes =
will be changed, the base units will be correctly dimensioned, etc.
I carry my laptop 99% of the time, and so should he. I regularly pull into=
McDonald's to get a cup of joe, and modify my reports, annotate pictures, =
edit pictures and text (some are several legal pages long) add commentary e=
tc., then resend to my clients. I also write change orders, final bills, p=
rogress draws, opinions, estimates for work and anything else I need to rig=
ht on the spot. Depending on the job and how involved I am on a given day,=
I am known to set up on a job, work on my paperwork, save it all, then at =
lunch/dinner/home, somewhere with wireless, and send it all out in multiple=
emails I have written as drafts.
The competition is fierce, and now rapid, quality service for a client is m=
ore important than ever before. You can bet your butt if I was doing full =
time remodeling I would bring my traveling office and software suites where=
ver I needed it, and would probably buy a big screen laptop for presentatio=
ns.
Honestly, I can't figure what is holding him back. He is a smart guy, he i=
sn't some Luddite, he just can't get out of his rut. If he doesn't, he wil=
l fail and that will be a shame.
Robert
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:26:01 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 4/17/2017 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> > Wow... a lot of good info flying around today. I will be keeping
> > that ladder safety pdf. I do some consulting, and that is a great
> > summary of ladder safety and use.
>
>
> No kidding! ;~)
> >
> > Leon, you might want to take a look at the "unistrut" suggestion from
> > OFWW. Check with your local electrical supply house under the name
> > of "Kindorf" since that is the way they sell it. I pay about $60 for
> > a 10' stick, and that would take care of your length. The trolley
> > wheels make that workable for you as you can modify them to be a face
> > mount on your ladder itself.
> >
> > On the backside of the ladder you could mount a couple of workbench
> > wheels that would allow easy movement of the ladder. Tons of them on
> > Amazon:
> >
> > https://goo.gl/aydc19
> >
> > You could mount some wheels to the bottom of your ladder sides, and
> > then put some adhesive in the bearings so they didn't swivel, but
> > rolled freely on a straight line:
> >
> > https://goo.gl/LLBg0H
> >
> > You could get these, put rubber feet on the bottom of the sides of
> > the ladder, and lock them up to move the ladder (3/4" lift) and then
> > roll your ladder in place. Again, swivel to straight line rolling and
> > easy cure.
> >
> > https://goo.gl/GplKkp
> >
> > If you want an underwire buy 1/4" all thread. HD has it cheap,
> > something like 3 bucks a stick. You can groove the bottom of your
> > steps to receive at least part of the radius (or not) and finish the
> > ends of the all thread with an end cap nut over a washer. Lay out
> > all your hardware and spray paint it the color you want before
> > assembly. If you mortise your steps into the sides (really Robert...
> > it's Leon... it will be dovetail mortised and Dominoed... !!!) then
> > you can assemble with all thread only and no other attachment needed
> > except maybe a high viscosity glue for the end grain (step) to long
> > grain joint above the all thread.
>
> I was actually thinking of using a piece of wood on the back side of the
> legs to keep the legs from spreading and to reinforce each step.
>
>
>
> >
> > One thing I would certainly do that is cheap and easy would be to
> > build a mock up ladder out of 2X4. That way you can check for
> > clearance, ease of use, step distances and verify your dimensions.
> > You could build a lean to mock up with $10 worth of material, and a
> > nail gun in minutes, knock down after you are happy and use the 2X4
> > parts for something else.
>
> After considering the weight of about 18' of 1x8 white oak I may just
> use 2x4's for the legs and 1x4's for the steps and some knarley nails!
> LOL That is a good idea though because the bottom of the latter will
> project about 40 inches into the room at the bottom. The ladder will
> lean in 27" + the depth of the top cabinets, about 13" and stand off
> from the wall..... The weight of the white oak is starting to concern
> me and I may have to go with the wheeled route...
>
> I would really love to keep this simple.
>
> Hell I may have to bring the 9' ladder in through the window...;~(
>
> Maybe a remote controlled wench on a ceiling track. I could hook on to
> my back belt loop. ;~0
>
> I have to get the cabinets up on the file cabinets and hang the bridge
> up over the entry doors first...
>
>
> >
> > Love to see what your final decision will be.
> >
> > Robert
> >
You could install a wooden version of the MARS set-up that they have at
the University Of Nevada - Reno.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kz6N1de7lE
Those stacks would require quite a few dominos.
Wow... a lot of good info flying around today. I will be keeping that ladd=
er safety pdf. I do some consulting, and that is a great summary of ladder=
safety and use.
Leon, you might want to take a look at the "unistrut" suggestion from OFWW.=
Check with your local electrical supply house under the name of "Kindorf"=
since that is the way they sell it. I pay about $60 for a 10' stick, and =
that would take care of your length. The trolley wheels make that workable=
for you as you can modify them to be a face mount on your ladder itself.
On the backside of the ladder you could mount a couple of workbench wheels =
that would allow easy movement of the ladder. Tons of them on Amazon:
https://goo.gl/aydc19
You could mount some wheels to the bottom of your ladder sides, and then pu=
t some adhesive in the bearings so they didn't swivel, but rolled freely on=
a straight line:
https://goo.gl/LLBg0H
You could get these, put rubber feet on the bottom of the sides of the ladd=
er, and lock them up to move the ladder (3/4" lift) and then roll your ladd=
er in place. Again, swivel to straight line rolling and easy cure.
https://goo.gl/GplKkp
If you want an underwire buy 1/4" all thread. HD has it cheap, something l=
ike 3 bucks a stick. You can groove the bottom of your steps to receive at=
least part of the radius (or not) and finish the ends of the all thread wi=
th an end cap nut over a washer. Lay out all your hardware and spray paint=
it the color you want before assembly. If you mortise your steps into the =
sides (really Robert... it's Leon... it will be dovetail mortised and Domin=
oed... !!!) then you can assemble with all thread only and no other attachm=
ent needed except maybe a high viscosity glue for the end grain (step) to l=
ong grain joint above the all thread.=20
One thing I would certainly do that is cheap and easy would be to build a m=
ock up ladder out of 2X4. That way you can check for clearance, ease of use=
, step distances and verify your dimensions. You could build a lean to moc=
k up with $10 worth of material, and a nail gun in minutes, knock down afte=
r you are happy and use the 2X4 parts for something else.
Love to see what your final decision will be.
Robert
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:48:57 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>
> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>
> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
Are you getting younger or older? Conserving space and storing the ladder
out of the way sounds like a great idea now, but how about 10 years out?
We're getting designs for a new front stoop and walkway. 2 steps for the
stoop and then another up into the house. One of my criteria for the design
is the ability to add a railing at a later date.
On 4/20/2017 2:53 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 10:02:42 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/31911321324/in/dateposted-public/
>
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/33774796310/in/dateposted-public/
>
>>
> Leon - how long did it take you to complete your drawings? I have a
> friend of mine that owns a small remodeling company that just can't
> get it kick started. He has been in the business now for many years,
> and does indeed know what he is doing.
If I had to guess, and to the extend of those referenced above, 6-10
hours each, total, but that is playing with design changes too. I have
never sat down and worked start to finish on one big project like those
referenced above. I was not sure where I was going to end up at the
beginning. BUT modifications are easy.
>
> As a sidebar, he has a degree in business that was a double major.
> He went to a school in CA that had a degree (that had to be coupled
> with business) in cabinet building. So when he graduated he was
> fully qualified to run all aspects of a cabinet shop, and was trained
> to do all aspects of the work needed from using the shaper to
> accounts receivable management.
>
> He hated working with only one or two guys in the shop, and he
> loathed working alone.
>
> This is a guy I spoke to you about before, one that you generously
> allowed me to send some of your renderings (along with Swing) to him.
> He was pumped up, as he was still doing his drawings by hand. I had
> lunch with him a while back, and he had not finished his online
> Sketchup courses, and was starting to forget what he had learned.
> Now you sent me the renderings almost two years ago, so I figured he
> would be whizzing along with his sketches by now.
>
> I can't get him to understand that using Sketchup is like me using a
> publication program, a word processor, or any other kind of layering
> program. Certainly the end product is the goal, but using software,
> the end product is achieved in a very efficient manner. To me, the
> key to learning to use any program that will produce a finished
> product is the complete ease of endless editing. After watching you
> and Karl, I opined to my buddy that this was no harder than learning
> the photo editor I use, the publisher I use, or the advanced features
> of my word processor. He was enthusiastic as hell!
>
> Now, we meet again, and he has fallen on his old ways. It takes him
> weeks to render new drawings, days to redraw a detail or two, then it
> has to be scanned, compressed and checked for readability if he wants
> to email it. Otherwise, he has to hand carry drawings he paid to
> have printed over to the client and the doodle their changes on the
> newest renderings and start again. This is the way business was done
> for decades, but not now, nor had it been done this way for about 10
> years. He is rapidly falling not just behind, but out of the race
> altogether.
When I present a drawing to a client I typically print the drawing to a
PDF file and send by e-mail They prefer this to anything else. Some of
my engineer clients actually load Sketchup up and I send the drawing
file for them to explore. I can send a PDF of any angle they want to
see. Modifications typically take 30 minutes to an hour depending on
how complex the modifications are. Adding wood grain to give the
drawing a life like look takes 3~5 minutes.
I might add that I use an optimization program to tell me how to cut my
inventory of lumber/sheet goods for maximum efficiency, whether that is
to save material cost or to save "Leon time cost".
Adding the named wood grains to the drawing also tells the optimization
program what materials to use for each part.
Oh and I use a plug-in program in Sketchup to import all of the
component/parts into the optimization program.
I will say that if he dedicated a weekend to learning the program he
would be able to do 95% of what needs to do. BUT the learning curve
would be greatly reduced if some one that is good with the program spent
time with him. Tutorials do not always emphasize the importance and why
to do things a certain way.
ALSO, and I can not emphasize this requirement enough. Both Swingman
and I have mentioned so many times we are almost blue in the face. In
fact a neighbor that is getting into woodworking was asking be about
problems he was having with Sketchup. This is probably the same problem
that every one has when learning Sketchup. Anyway, the neighbor came
over and when I showed him WHY he needed to learn to do this step I
think I literally saw a cartoon light bulb illuminate above his head.
While it seems trivial, as you can certainly draw with out taking this
extra step you might as well be drawing with a paper and pencil.
With out fail you should always make every piece/whole part of the
project into a COMPONENT. In Sketchup lines that touch stick together.
If you draw a cabinet door and do not make the center panel and each
rail and stile into COMPONENTS you will have great difficulty in moving
or modifying any part of the assembly.
If you draw a cabinet door with out making the pieces into components
and try to modify a part the other lines of the other parts will stick
and stretch into strange angles.
If you modify a "component" no other parts of the drawing are affected.
Additionally you can copy a component to another open spot on the screen
and modify it with out other parts, that it may be attached to, being in
the way, blocking your view. When you copy a component and modify it,
every copy of that component will automatically update, including the
original. I will often copy the component to an open location, modify
it, and then delete it. The original is still in its original location
with the modifications. This simply does not happen if you don't turn
your parts into components.
How do you make a group of lines into a component? Hi light all the
lines you want to be a component, right click and choose, make into
component. You have the option of naming the component, a good habit to
get into.
I am not saying that your friend is not using components but most every
one that finally realizes that you should make all parts into components
typically sling shot into being much more productive.
The order of drawing should be like this, a cabinet door for example.
Completely draw a rail or stile, but only one or the other but lets
choose the stile. Then make that part/group of lines into a component.
Now draw the rail and attach it directly to the stile while drawing.
Because the stile is already a component the rail lines will not stick.
Once that is drawn make those lines into a component. Next copy the
rail to the opposite end and flip it to make it a mirror image. Next
copy the stile to the opposite side and flip it to make it a mirror
image. Draw the center panel, make into a component and place in the
center. It typically takes less time to to do than to type. ;~)
>
> I would like to make one more pass at him, send him the drawings you
> published here, and some commentary from you on how long it took you
> to do those. If this doesn't work, I give up. He is literally
> losing business as he sees himself as a "traditionalist", and he
> thinks folks like to see his hand drawings. Actually, the probably
> do, just not a month after he makes his changes.
Yeah, that is no good. Modification should be easy and quick.
>
> He needs the level of detail that you can generate with your drawings
> as he always finds clients that are cabinet/built in heavy.
> Otherwise he could get one of the many pieces of software out there
> (some free!) that allow you to move walls and cabinets around in a
> rudimentary way with pretty renderings.
>
> Just a few words, sir. I am worried that my buddy will be out of
> business soon, as he won't move into this century. His other problem
> being that he doesn't know how to promote his company makes his lack
> of technology a killer.
You can lead a horse to water.....
FWIW I copy part of my drawing to a blank area and move the parts apart
for reference/clarification.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/34124992416/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/34008345082/in/dateposted-public/
On 4/17/2017 4:22 PM, Markem wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:48:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>
>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>
>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>
> Could you build a ladder holder (not sure of the nomenclature) to hang
> it on one wall or the other so it sits fith the climbing side towards
> the wall.
>
Not sure what you are asking and or addressing.
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:32:41 -0500, Markem <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:36:45 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 4/17/2017 4:22 PM, Markem wrote:
>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:48:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>>>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>>>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>>>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>>>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>>>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>>>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>>>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>>>
>>>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>>>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>>>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>>>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>>>
>>> Could you build a ladder holder (not sure of the nomenclature) to hang
>>> it on one wall or the other so it sits fith the climbing side towards
>>> the wall.
>>>
>>
>>Not sure what you are asking and or addressing.
>
>Trying to relate an idea and not succeeding.
Why not just get a light barn door track kit and fasten the bogeys to
the top of a normal lahher. You will want the "box track" style.
Go to Home Despot in the USA, 8 foot track part#63075 for $65 each and
a pair of 62896 hangers at about $32 each, and the bottom half of an
old wooden extention ladder from an auction sale and you are all set.
Hardware for a 16 foot library is only about $195 plus a can of spray
paint.a set of casters on a board at the bottom allows the ladder to
slide sideways without scratching the floor. Cut a bit off the bottom
of the ladder so the first rung is the right distance from the floor
and "bob's your mother's brother"
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:48:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>
>Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>
>I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
Could you build a ladder holder (not sure of the nomenclature) to hang
it on one wall or the other so it sits fith the climbing side towards
the wall.
On 4/20/2017 5:32 PM, OFWW wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:53:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 10:02:42 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/31911321324/in/dateposted-public/
>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/33774796310/in/dateposted-public/
>>
>> Leon - how long did it take you to complete your drawings? I have a friend of mine that owns a small remodeling company that just can't get it kick started. He has been in the business now for many years, and does indeed know what he is doing.
>>
>> As a sidebar, he has a degree in business that was a double major. He went to a school in CA that had a degree (that had to be coupled with business) in cabinet building. So when he graduated he was fully qualified to run all aspects of a cabinet shop, and was trained to do all aspects of the work needed from using the shaper to accounts receivable management.
>>
>> He hated working with only one or two guys in the shop, and he loathed working alone.
>>
>> This is a guy I spoke to you about before, one that you generously allowed me to send some of your renderings (along with Swing) to him. He was pumped up, as he was still doing his drawings by hand. I had lunch with him a while back, and he had not finished his online Sketchup courses, and was starting to forget what he had learned. Now you sent me the renderings almost two years ago, so I figured he would be whizzing along with his sketches by now.
>>
>> I can't get him to understand that using Sketchup is like me using a publication program, a word processor, or any other kind of layering program. Certainly the end product is the goal, but using software, the end product is achieved in a very efficient manner. To me, the key to learning to use any program that will produce a finished product is the complete ease of endless editing. After watching you and Karl, I opined to my buddy that this was no harder than learning the photo editor I use, the publisher I use, or the advanced features of my word processor. He was enthusiastic as hell!
>>
>> Now, we meet again, and he has fallen on his old ways. It takes him weeks to render new drawings, days to redraw a detail or two, then it has to be scanned, compressed and checked for readability if he wants to email it. Otherwise, he has to hand carry drawings he paid to have printed over to the client and the doodle their changes on the newest renderings and start again. This is the way business was done for decades, but not now, nor had it been done this way for about 10 years. He is rapidly falling not just behind, but out of the race altogether.
>>
>> I would like to make one more pass at him, send him the drawings you published here, and some commentary from you on how long it took you to do those. If this doesn't work, I give up. He is literally losing business as he sees himself as a "traditionalist", and he thinks folks like to see his hand drawings. Actually, the probably do, just not a month after he makes his changes.
>>
>> He needs the level of detail that you can generate with your drawings as he always finds clients that are cabinet/built in heavy. Otherwise he could get one of the many pieces of software out there (some free!) that allow you to move walls and cabinets around in a rudimentary way with pretty renderings.
>>
>> Just a few words, sir. I am worried that my buddy will be out of business soon, as he won't move into this century. His other problem being that he doesn't know how to promote his company makes his lack of technology a killer.
>>
>> Robert
>
> The guy is so used to 2d drawings that he might be better off with a
> 2d Cad type program. It would be more familiar to his style and once
> he got used to the commands, and just redoing his basic prints for
> mods, and finds how simple it is then He might feel better moving to a
> 3D program.
That is a thought but IMHO 2D programs are not any easier to learn than
Sketchup. AND if you want you can draw 2D in Sketchup pretty easily.
The "got'cha" though, is than customers want to see 3D. 2D does not
always convey the message to the customer.
IMHO there is NO better drawing program for a woodworker than Skethup
especially considering its price for the Make or the Pro version.
I have used IMSI Designer in the mid 80's moving on to Turbo CAD a few
years later, then 3 versions of AutoSketch, then AutoCAD LT when it was
first introduced as a Windows program, plus multiple costly upgrades.
And then about 8 years ago Sketchup, under Google, became the easiest
for me to use and my customers know exactly what they are getting.
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand offs
>would be at least $1,000.00.
Leon, Rockler has the hardware for a rolling library ladder for half your
estimate. Here's a link:
http://www.rockler.com/rockler-classic-rolling-library-ladder-hardware-kit-satin-black
Tom
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:25:48 -0500, Leon wrote:
<snipped>
> Hell I may have to bring the 9' ladder in through the window...;~(
>
> Maybe a remote controlled wench on a ceiling track. I could hook on to
> my back belt loop. ;~0 ^^^^^^^
>
You will quite likely find that librarians are *very* independent these
days, and locating one with a remote control interface will be a
challenge.
Good luck, though!
Colin
On 4/17/17 1:18 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/17/2017 2:04 PM, tdacon wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Leon" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>
>> Leon, Rockler has the hardware for a rolling library ladder for half
>> your estimate. Here's a link:
>>
>> http://www.rockler.com/rockler-classic-rolling-library-ladder-hardware-kit-satin-black
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>
>
> ahhh. I went through that kit build again and the hardware is about
> $700. I must have remembered with pricing with the wood included. That
> adds $400. If I supply the wood I can get the price down to $800. Still
> kinda pricey.. ;~( BUT going in the right direction.
For a loft area, I added a simple 1/4" X 1" flat-steel bar across the
loft edge to act as a hooking point for the ladder. The bar was secured
with lag bolts every 12" using washers to allow for a 1/2" gap between
the bar and the face of the loft edge. Simple upside down "U" hooks were
installed at the tops of the ladder rails.
To use it, the ladder is simply hooked over the bar, very secure, but
you still need a proper angle depending on how you plan to climb the
ladder and if you intend to carry anything (climbing with one free hand).
The bar can certainly be more decorative (brass or painted), or you
could use a length of 1/2 to 1" black pipe.
Storage for the (8 foot) ladder was to simply hang it horizontally on
the bar.
Plenty of ways to do this, but I think in your case, "how it looks" has
more priority than convenience features like wheels (which make the cost
of hardware really shoot up).
-BR
On 4/22/2017 9:19 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 4/17/17 1:18 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/17/2017 2:04 PM, tdacon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Leon" wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>>>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>>>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>>>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>>
>>> Leon, Rockler has the hardware for a rolling library ladder for half
>>> your estimate. Here's a link:
>>>
>>> http://www.rockler.com/rockler-classic-rolling-library-ladder-hardware-kit-satin-black
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>
>>
>> ahhh. I went through that kit build again and the hardware is about
>> $700. I must have remembered with pricing with the wood included. That
>> adds $400. If I supply the wood I can get the price down to $800. Still
>> kinda pricey.. ;~( BUT going in the right direction.
>
> For a loft area, I added a simple 1/4" X 1" flat-steel bar across the
> loft edge to act as a hooking point for the ladder.
I have planned for something like this. The mid face frame rail in the
center cabinet and the corresponding areas on the side cabinets have a
lip, the shelf is 1/4" lower than the face frame. I was going to
incorporate a hook at the top of the ladder to hook over the face frame
to prevent it from sliding down should the bottom of the ladder slip.
But I may revisit the off set bar, or closet rod. Paint the rod black
and build the ladder out of common construction grade material and paint
it black.
snip
>
> Plenty of ways to do this, but I think in your case, "how it looks" has
> more priority than convenience features like wheels (which make the cost
> of hardware really shoot up).
Exactly.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 4/17/2017 12:27 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> > Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> >
> >> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
> >> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
> >> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
> >> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
> >>
> >> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
> >> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
> >> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
> >> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
> >> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
> >>
> >> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
> >> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
> >> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
> >> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
> >
> > http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00235
> >
> > Use the 4-to-1 rule: Make sure the ladder is 1 foot away from the
> > wall for every 4 feet that the ladder rises. For example, if the
> > ladder touches the wall 16 feet above the ground, the feet/base of
> > the ladder should be 4 feet from the wall. If you are going to climb
> > onto a roof, the ladder should extend 3 feet higher than the roof.
> > The upper and lower sections of an extension ladder should overlap to
> > provide stability.
> >
> > -or-
> >
> > 75deg -- Figure 13-1: Ladder Angle:
> > http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/296_97_10
> >
>
> Thank you! My current allowance is 18" for 108" and I thought that
> looked way to unstable.
Yep, 108/4 = 27"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEuHUcWQGY0
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 17:45:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/20/2017 5:32 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:53:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 10:02:42 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/31911321324/in/dateposted-public/
>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/33774796310/in/dateposted-public/
>>>
>>> Leon - how long did it take you to complete your drawings? I have a friend of mine that owns a small remodeling company that just can't get it kick started. He has been in the business now for many years, and does indeed know what he is doing.
>>>
>>> As a sidebar, he has a degree in business that was a double major. He went to a school in CA that had a degree (that had to be coupled with business) in cabinet building. So when he graduated he was fully qualified to run all aspects of a cabinet shop, and was trained to do all aspects of the work needed from using the shaper to accounts receivable management.
>>>
>>> He hated working with only one or two guys in the shop, and he loathed working alone.
>>>
>>> This is a guy I spoke to you about before, one that you generously allowed me to send some of your renderings (along with Swing) to him. He was pumped up, as he was still doing his drawings by hand. I had lunch with him a while back, and he had not finished his online Sketchup courses, and was starting to forget what he had learned. Now you sent me the renderings almost two years ago, so I figured he would be whizzing along with his sketches by now.
>>>
>>> I can't get him to understand that using Sketchup is like me using a publication program, a word processor, or any other kind of layering program. Certainly the end product is the goal, but using software, the end product is achieved in a very efficient manner. To me, the key to learning to use any program that will produce a finished product is the complete ease of endless editing. After watching you and Karl, I opined to my buddy that this was no harder than learning the photo editor I use, the publisher I use, or the advanced features of my word processor. He was enthusiastic as hell!
>>>
>>> Now, we meet again, and he has fallen on his old ways. It takes him weeks to render new drawings, days to redraw a detail or two, then it has to be scanned, compressed and checked for readability if he wants to email it. Otherwise, he has to hand carry drawings he paid to have printed over to the client and the doodle their changes on the newest renderings and start again. This is the way business was done for decades, but not now, nor had it been done this way for about 10 years. He is rapidly falling not just behind, but out of the race altogether.
>>>
>>> I would like to make one more pass at him, send him the drawings you published here, and some commentary from you on how long it took you to do those. If this doesn't work, I give up. He is literally losing business as he sees himself as a "traditionalist", and he thinks folks like to see his hand drawings. Actually, the probably do, just not a month after he makes his changes.
>>>
>>> He needs the level of detail that you can generate with your drawings as he always finds clients that are cabinet/built in heavy. Otherwise he could get one of the many pieces of software out there (some free!) that allow you to move walls and cabinets around in a rudimentary way with pretty renderings.
>>>
>>> Just a few words, sir. I am worried that my buddy will be out of business soon, as he won't move into this century. His other problem being that he doesn't know how to promote his company makes his lack of technology a killer.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> The guy is so used to 2d drawings that he might be better off with a
>> 2d Cad type program. It would be more familiar to his style and once
>> he got used to the commands, and just redoing his basic prints for
>> mods, and finds how simple it is then He might feel better moving to a
>> 3D program.
>
>That is a thought but IMHO 2D programs are not any easier to learn than
>Sketchup. AND if you want you can draw 2D in Sketchup pretty easily.
>The "got'cha" though, is than customers want to see 3D. 2D does not
>always convey the message to the customer.
>
>
>IMHO there is NO better drawing program for a woodworker than Skethup
>especially considering its price for the Make or the Pro version.
>
>I have used IMSI Designer in the mid 80's moving on to Turbo CAD a few
>years later, then 3 versions of AutoSketch, then AutoCAD LT when it was
>first introduced as a Windows program, plus multiple costly upgrades.
>And then about 8 years ago Sketchup, under Google, became the easiest
>for me to use and my customers know exactly what they are getting.
>
I used mainly AutoSketch, had lots of tools very easy to use, and IIRC
I could also do Isometric drawings. Or at the least show the top and
sides different view points so I could tell like 3d what was messed
up. The support was on and off again but still it was simple.
I know like Sketchup even though the fix and then break things on
their updates, but I see that going the way of a closed shop at their
first opportunity.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>
> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>
> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00235
Use the 4-to-1 rule: Make sure the ladder is 1 foot away from the
wall for every 4 feet that the ladder rises. For example, if the
ladder touches the wall 16 feet above the ground, the feet/base of
the ladder should be 4 feet from the wall. If you are going to climb
onto a roof, the ladder should extend 3 feet higher than the roof.
The upper and lower sections of an extension ladder should overlap to
provide stability.
-or-
75deg -- Figure 13-1: Ladder Angle:
http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/296_97_10
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:53:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 10:02:42 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/31911321324/in/dateposted-public/
>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/33774796310/in/dateposted-public/
>
>Leon - how long did it take you to complete your drawings? I have a friend of mine that owns a small remodeling company that just can't get it kick started. He has been in the business now for many years, and does indeed know what he is doing.
>
>As a sidebar, he has a degree in business that was a double major. He went to a school in CA that had a degree (that had to be coupled with business) in cabinet building. So when he graduated he was fully qualified to run all aspects of a cabinet shop, and was trained to do all aspects of the work needed from using the shaper to accounts receivable management.
>
>He hated working with only one or two guys in the shop, and he loathed working alone.
>
>This is a guy I spoke to you about before, one that you generously allowed me to send some of your renderings (along with Swing) to him. He was pumped up, as he was still doing his drawings by hand. I had lunch with him a while back, and he had not finished his online Sketchup courses, and was starting to forget what he had learned. Now you sent me the renderings almost two years ago, so I figured he would be whizzing along with his sketches by now.
>
>I can't get him to understand that using Sketchup is like me using a publication program, a word processor, or any other kind of layering program. Certainly the end product is the goal, but using software, the end product is achieved in a very efficient manner. To me, the key to learning to use any program that will produce a finished product is the complete ease of endless editing. After watching you and Karl, I opined to my buddy that this was no harder than learning the photo editor I use, the publisher I use, or the advanced features of my word processor. He was enthusiastic as hell!
>
>Now, we meet again, and he has fallen on his old ways. It takes him weeks to render new drawings, days to redraw a detail or two, then it has to be scanned, compressed and checked for readability if he wants to email it. Otherwise, he has to hand carry drawings he paid to have printed over to the client and the doodle their changes on the newest renderings and start again. This is the way business was done for decades, but not now, nor had it been done this way for about 10 years. He is rapidly falling not just behind, but out of the race altogether.
>
>I would like to make one more pass at him, send him the drawings you published here, and some commentary from you on how long it took you to do those. If this doesn't work, I give up. He is literally losing business as he sees himself as a "traditionalist", and he thinks folks like to see his hand drawings. Actually, the probably do, just not a month after he makes his changes.
>
>He needs the level of detail that you can generate with your drawings as he always finds clients that are cabinet/built in heavy. Otherwise he could get one of the many pieces of software out there (some free!) that allow you to move walls and cabinets around in a rudimentary way with pretty renderings.
>
>Just a few words, sir. I am worried that my buddy will be out of business soon, as he won't move into this century. His other problem being that he doesn't know how to promote his company makes his lack of technology a killer.
>
>Robert
The guy is so used to 2d drawings that he might be better off with a
2d Cad type program. It would be more familiar to his style and once
he got used to the commands, and just redoing his basic prints for
mods, and finds how simple it is then He might feel better moving to a
3D program.
He could take some of the drawings he basically modifies for other
jobs and have then scanned on an autocad type scanner, and load them
into the program of his choice also he can see how easy it is to
modify and edit known drawings. Once he see's the time saved he'll be
in for the game.
I remember trying to get one of my sons to work with a word processor
but for some reason his head was stuck on a typewriter. After a couple
rewrites as demanded by his teacher, each taking him an how to retype
I scanned in one of his papers that basically had a few spelling
errors, but needed sections cut n pasted in for reformatting. He say
me edit it and print the whole thing out in under 5 minutes ready to
turn in to his teacher and that was the last time he ever wrote things
out by hand and then typed it. LOL, even his lightening fast mind
realized he could be out messing around instead of being stuck inside
doing Homework.
On 4/20/2017 12:00 AM, Dan Coby wrote:
> On 4/17/2017 9:48 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I am getting close to needing to build a ladder for my 10'+ tall book
>> shelves. I'm probably going to go the less expensive route and simply
>> build a lean-to ladder. Fancy hardware and wheels and bars and stand
>> offs would be at least $1,000.00.
>>
>> Anyway has anyone done this? I am in particular wondering what the
>> minimum angle should be to prevent falling backwards. I am not going to
>> attach the ladder to the book cases, my plan is to put rubber feet on
>> the bottom and maybe felt pads where it will lean against the book case.
>> I'll just pick it up and move it as needed.
>>
>> I am certain a normal step ladder ladder is probably a good angle but I
>> do not want to take up any more floor space than necessary if I leave it
>> out and leaning against the book case all of the time. Alternatively I
>> can stand the ladder at the end of the cabinets out of the way.
>
> I have been reading about your library and ladder project.
>
> It seems like you are planning on building a ladder that is about 9 feet
> tall. I would like to point out that it does not really need to be that
> tall. If I assume that your ceilings are 10 feet and that you are 5 foot
> 6 inches, then the highest step that you could possibly use is only 4
> and 1/2 feet off of the floor. Otherwise you would be hitting your head
> on the ceiling.
My ceilings are 11' tall, I am 6' tall and my wife is 5'4".
>
> In your situation, I would consider building something that is only
> about 4 feet tall. Something this size would not dominate the room or
> block your view of the contents of your shelves like a taller ladder would.
I have considered a short step ladder however, the bookcases will be
sitting on top of two file cabinets. The file cabinets will extend
approximately 8" out in front of the book shelves and the file cabinets
are approximately 42" tall. This, for safety reasons, is why I am
choosing a ladder that will lean closer to the upper shelves.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/31911321324/in/dateposted-public/
>
> I would want something to act as a hand rail for stability. This could
> be either something attached to one side of the shorter ladder or,
> perhaps, some sort of rails attached directly to the bookshelves either
> horizontally or vertically.
The taller ladder would act as a hand rail.
In the picture, I have a 9' ladder that rests against the face frame of
the middle and side cabinets. That is the only line of shelving that is
stationary/fixed. all lower shelves on the sides are adjustable so they
would not make a good support for the ladder.
"IF" I were to add a library ladder bar along the bottom of the center
cabinet and extend in front of the adjustable shelving on the side
cabinets I could perhaps shorten the ladder to about 8' or a little less.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/33774796310/in/dateposted-public/
>
> Dan