first table saw

Ridgid is a fine brand but in my opinion it is more targeted at the
construction industry (ie contractor) than the shop type applications.

Some other considerations are the hybrid saws. In short, a cabinet or
furniture shop uses a cabinet saw. It's a different design offering
more stability, less vibration, thus better cutting performance. Some
companies are now creating hybrid contractor and hybrid saws. Dewalt
and Jet have them for about $800 (I much prefer the fence on the
Dewalt) and Craftsman now has a hybrid for $500. Maybe someone here can
comment on the Sears hybrid but I've seen some good reviews.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00922104000&subcat=Table+Saws

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> Lets see, a $600 TS and a $400 jointer, or a $1,000 TS and shims on a
> router table. They seem to be of equal utility to you? You really want to
> joint a 60" board on a 27" TS wing router table? Don't be silly. (I
> don't even want to know how you propose thickness planing on your router
> table.)

Forget the jointer if you are buying S2S or better. I can easily straighten
a board on my TS much faster and as accurately as on a jointer.


> I suppose a table saw "can" substitute for a miter saw, but so can a hand
> saw. Don't be silly.

Once I properly equipped my TS, I absolutely quit using my 12" Delta CMS
unless at a job site. Absolutely no comparison in accuracy to the TS and
its jigs.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:56:42 GMT, Matt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
>big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
>rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
>TS2400 for portables.
>
>Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
>good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
>should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
>gets committed to the shop.

I'd imagine just about any $500 saw is going to be nicer than what
most guys start with. Hell, it's better than what a lot of guys
retire with. If you've got the money, then go for it. My first table
saw goes for about $180, but I got it on sale for $99 (Delta TS200).
I'm replacing it soon, but it actually has done pretty well by me.
I'm going to go out an a limb, and say that if it had a long enough
arbor for a dado stack, I'd be keeping it for a few more years. As it
is, I think I'm going to hang onto it anyway, just for sentimental
value.

>Your thoughts?

I was listening to a program on public radio several weeks ago where
they were speaking with musicians about Stradavarius violins. The
muscians all stated that they had a relationship with their
instruments, and that as time went on, they were able to learn all the
little imperfections of their equipment and use them to their
advantage by cultivating a unique sound. Tools are like that. You
don't want something that is terribly underpowered, or is so poorly
manufactured that things are going to be breaking all the time, but
you'll grow to understand the small things that make your tools
unique, and learn to work with them. The brand doesn't really matter
much anymore once that happens.

"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:_Kiqe.14$9a1.7@trnddc01...
> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
> should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
> gets committed to the shop.
>
> Your thoughts?
You should buy the TS350. If done correctly, this is the only table saw you
will ever buy.
Jim

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> Lets see, a $600 TS and a $400 jointer, or a $1,000 TS and shims on a
router
> table. They seem to be of equal utility to you?

When did he say that he had $1000.00 to spend? Seems to me he was comparing
table saws that were well below that price point.

>You really want to joint a
> 60" board on a 27" TS wing router table?

Wouldn't be my first choice. Hand plane is my first choice. Cheap, fast and
dead easy. What more could you ask?



> I suppose a table saw "can" substitute for a miter saw, but so can a hand
> saw.

Sure can, what's the problem?


>
>

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Forget the jointer if you are buying S2S or better. I can easily
> straighten a board on my TS much faster and as accurately as on a jointer.

Agree. Depends on the supplier also. At CT Hardwoods, they ask me what
thickness and in a minute it is done. I still don't have a jointer and I'm
not in a rush to get one. I do use my planer though.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

yeah. I picked up some wood. the prices are comparable to Aura. I
like the fact I can look at all the wood they currently stock. Can't do
that at Aura.

Dave

Patriarch wrote:

> David <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>>oh, BTW, I'm way too cheap to buy wood at SL.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>
>
> Did you get over to PALS yet? How's their South Bay outlet look?
>
> Patriarch

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > Don't forget, you will need a router table, a planer, a jointer, and a
>> > miter saw to do any serious work.
>>
>> You do make an art out of being wrong, don't you?
>
> I was tempted to say something, but you beat me to it. Figure on the
> tablesaw handling mitre saw duties, a router mounted in a wing of the
> tablesaw, shims for using the router as a jointer, and a planer? Well, I'd
> love to have one, but considering that I wasn't aware of their existence
> for
> the first 20 years of my woodworking life, it's not all that difficult to
> get by without one and still make some serious projects.
>
Lets see, a $600 TS and a $400 jointer, or a $1,000 TS and shims on a router
table. They seem to be of equal utility to you? You really want to joint a
60" board on a 27" TS wing router table? Don't be silly. (I don't even
want to know how you propose thickness planing on your router table.)

I suppose a table saw "can" substitute for a miter saw, but so can a hand
saw. Don't be silly.

Matt, you will get a lot of foolish opinions here, but you will also get
some wisdom. You just have to use your common sense to sort it out.

Matt <[email protected]> wrote in news:_Kiqe.14$9a1.7
@trnddc01:

> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
> should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
> gets committed to the shop.
>
> Your thoughts?

The better you are at a skill, the more easily you can accomodate less than
perfect tooling. As you learn, you learn how to compensate, jig, or design
around a tool's shortcomings, and they are all somehow less than perfect.

Regarding the tablesaw question: If you don't absolutely NEED the
portability, then go for the other saw. Stability and mass count.

And budget for the purchase of a couple of better sawblades, too.

Patriarch

David <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> oh, BTW, I'm way too cheap to buy wood at SL.
>
> Dave
>

Did you get over to PALS yet? How's their South Bay outlet look?

Patriarch

toller wrote:
> I suppose a table saw "can" substitute for a miter saw, but so can a hand
> saw. Don't be silly.
>
> Matt, you will get a lot of foolish opinions here, but you will also get
> some wisdom. You just have to use your common sense to sort it out.

A very good point to remember, Matt. You're wise to float your question
here and when you analyze the responses, analyze the track record of the
folks providing them. See which folks are constantly cited as being
wrong, then take a look at their critics and find out how many times
THEY are shown to be wrong by somebody other than the person being
criticized.

Some folks just belong in a junk filter but their comments are just so
far off the wall that it's kinda humorous to anyone with half an ounze
of common sense.

Regarding the pro's and cons of the quality of tools for a beginner, I
would add that a quality tool used by a conscientious beginner may
produce better results than would otherwise be achieved by the same
beginner using a "mediocre" version of the same tool. That equates to
less frustration, more enjoyment and, ultimately, the prospect that one
will stick with the hobby and the higher quality tool purchased will
truly be a better value to that user. Again, cry once or cry twice.

Enjoy the hobby.

> Well, where you buy the wood may not be, that is too bad. Fortunately I
> do not have that problem. I think I would look for another supplier. If
> your "surfaced" wood is not "flat enough"

Maybe it is different where you are, but any surfaced wood I have seen is
thickness planed, not face jointed. If it is flat, it is just luck.
Likewise, the edges are never good enough to glue.

Matt <[email protected]> writes:

> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the
> first big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD
> has a rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and
> their TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of
> any good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a
> beginner should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment
> until heshe gets committed to the shop.

The difference in price is small - 14%. The way I look at it, you can
either waste $70 (if you overbuy) or waste $500 (if you underbuy). I'd
rather waste $70.

Check out
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/table-saw-reviews/fullstory.html

and http://www.woodnet.net/reviews/archive/table-saw-shootout/

Their "Editor's Choice" is the Delta 36-650 for $500 vs. the TS2412

One review of the TS2400 says it lacks table extensions and riving knife.

I see that there is also a TS2412 and TL2400LS - I'm not sure of the
difference.

The TS3560 has
36" rip
TEFC motor 120/240V
287 lbs
Nicer fence and rails
The TS2400LS has:
25" Rip
122 lbs

If you want true portability, moving it up stairs, on trucked,
etc. Get the lightweight. Otherwise, the heavyweight.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

If you aren't sure you want to stick with this hobby, you might be
tempted to (and rightfully so) buy second class equipment. If you stick
with it, you'll be replacing all that equipment as you realize it's
shortcomings. You'll end up buying everything twice! It's a difficult
decision, because if you go expensive on the first round and then don't
keep woodworking, you've wasted your money because second hand equipment
sells for pennies on the dollar. If you go "cheap", it's more expensive
in the long run. There's no right answer to your question. YOU have to
assess the likelihood that you'll stick with it. IF you think you will,
I'd urge you to buy the best that you can possibly afford. Conversely,
if you buy cheap, you may not get a whole lot of satisfaction from your
new hobby. My enjoyment increased by an order of magnitude once I
bought a Unisaw and sold my Craftsman TS. After that, I went on a
buying spree because woodworking had become truly pleasurable. I got a
6" jointer, a nice router table, a big router, a drill press, a band
saw, etc. I'd already owned a thickness planer for some time, but it
had seen little duty until I'd gotten the tools that complement it.

I hope you enjoy your new venture as much as I've enjoyed mine!

oh, one refrain that gets mentioned often on the 'Wreck is "you can cry
once, or cry twice", which is a reference to the money spent on tools.
Meaning if you buy a tool that lasts, but is relatively expensive, it's
cheaper than buying a poor substitute and then turning around later and
replacing it with what you REALLY wanted/needed in the first place.

Dave

Matt wrote:

> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
> should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
> gets committed to the shop.
>
> Your thoughts?

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>> Well, where you buy the wood may not be, that is too bad. Fortunately I
>> do not have that problem. I think I would look for another supplier. If
>> your "surfaced" wood is not "flat enough"
>
> Maybe it is different where you are,

Apparently so.

but any surfaced wood I have seen is
> thickness planed, not face jointed. If it is flat, it is just luck.
> Likewise, the edges are never good enough to glue.

S2S for me as that is what I was referring to is flat and typically milled
to 13/16". It still needs to be planed to thickness and true to s2s it is
never good enough to edge glue.

In article <[email protected]>,
David <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you aren't sure you want to stick with this hobby, you might be
> tempted to (and rightfully so) buy second class equipment. If you stick
> with it, you'll be replacing all that equipment as you realize it's
> shortcomings. You'll end up buying everything twice! It's a difficult
> decision, because if you go expensive on the first round and then don't
> keep woodworking, you've wasted your money because second hand equipment
> sells for pennies on the dollar. If you go "cheap", it's more expensive
> in the long run. There's no right answer to your question. YOU have to
> assess the likelihood that you'll stick with it. IF you think you will,
> I'd urge you to buy the best that you can possibly afford. Conversely,
> if you buy cheap, you may not get a whole lot of satisfaction from your
> new hobby. My enjoyment increased by an order of magnitude once I
> bought a Unisaw and sold my Craftsman TS. After that, I went on a
> buying spree because woodworking had become truly pleasurable. I got a
> 6" jointer, a nice router table, a big router, a drill press, a band
> saw, etc. I'd already owned a thickness planer for some time, but it
> had seen little duty until I'd gotten the tools that complement it.
>
> I hope you enjoy your new venture as much as I've enjoyed mine!
>
> oh, one refrain that gets mentioned often on the 'Wreck is "you can cry
> once, or cry twice", which is a reference to the money spent on tools.
> Meaning if you buy a tool that lasts, but is relatively expensive, it's
> cheaper than buying a poor substitute and then turning around later and
> replacing it with what you REALLY wanted/needed in the first place.
>
> Dave
>
> Matt wrote:
>
> > Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> > big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> > rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> > TS2400 for portables.
> >
> > Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> > good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
> > should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
> > gets committed to the shop.
> >
> > Your thoughts?

I agree completely with your assessment, David. I would like to add
another, important, point. Will Matt be building large items like 8/4
solid oak trestle tables or wee balsa wood jewellery boxes.
Tool selection varies greatly if you keep in mind the types of projects
you plan on building. My uncle made his living as a cabinetmaker for a
boat-builder for 40 years with nothing more than a box of hand tools, a
bandsaw, and a jointer. I have a TS2400 and I'm happy with what it does
for my needs. I modified it, of course, but so what? I WAS used to a
10-foot sliding table Altendorf and an 4-foot SCM, both with scoring
blades and 5 HP 3-phase motors. But I knew I was never going to do that
kind of work again. I like the TS2400, because when I'm not using it, I
fold it up and slap it against the wall....router panel installed and
all. That feature was important enough for me to buy it, even though I
knew the TS3600 would be a better saw....(although the motor mount is
dreadfully flimsy.)

There are many ways to skin a cat, and with my TS2400 and a Milwaukee
5616 router mounted as an extension I can do a LOT of projects..... and
to 'tollerize' a workshop this early in the game would be irresponsible.

There are no definitive answers. All replies to Matt's request have
merit in some way..except of course...never mind.

oh, BTW, I'm way too cheap to buy wood at SL.

Dave

David wrote:

> Even the priciest wood emporium in the area sells wood that's not flat.
> And I'm talking god-awful expensive. Southern Lumber. Anyone in my
> area knows how high their prices are. count your blessings that you get
> perfectly milled wood that stays flat until you buy it.
>
> Dave
>
> Leon wrote:

Even the priciest wood emporium in the area sells wood that's not flat.
And I'm talking god-awful expensive. Southern Lumber. Anyone in my
area knows how high their prices are. count your blessings that you get
perfectly milled wood that stays flat until you buy it.

Dave

Leon wrote:

> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Surfaced wood I buy is NEVER flat enough to use "as is". Besides which,
>>it's never exactly the right thickness--just close.
>
>
> Well, where you buy the wood may not be, that is too bad. Fortunately I do
> not have that problem. I think I would look for another supplier. If your
> "surfaced" wood is not "flat enough" IMHO too much material has already been
> removed and especially if is being sold as already being the right
> thickness. Personally I would never consider surfaced wood that was not
> flat.
>
>

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:56:42 GMT, Matt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
>big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
>rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
>TS2400 for portables.
>
>Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
>good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
>should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
>gets committed to the shop.
>
>Your thoughts?

I started out with hand tools, then bought several hand power tools. I
used these tools for 10-12 years. When I finally got the space for a
shop I bought a Powermatic 66, my first, and probably my last table
saw. I recommend a General or Powermatic.

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Don't forget, you will need a router table, a planer, a jointer, and a
> > miter saw to do any serious work.
>
> You do make an art out of being wrong, don't you?

I was tempted to say something, but you beat me to it. Figure on the
tablesaw handling mitre saw duties, a router mounted in a wing of the
tablesaw, shims for using the router as a jointer, and a planer? Well, I'd
love to have one, but considering that I wasn't aware of their existence for
the first 20 years of my woodworking life, it's not all that difficult to
get by without one and still make some serious projects.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:04:22 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>They seem to be of equal utility to you?

Of course not. But you do anything with nothing, if you put the time and
skill into it.

Worse than that, the tool alone is no substitute for a bit of skill -
hence the number of dusty, abandoned router tables in the workshops of
the disillusioned. Tools are good, but never let it be said that
they're essential to making _anything_. You can make interesting pieces
- chairs even - with a pile of logs and a drawknife.

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don't forget, you will need a router table, a planer, a jointer, and a
miter
> saw to do any serious work.

You do make an art out of being wrong, don't you?

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:56:42 GMT, Matt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
>big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
>rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
>TS2400 for portables.
>
>Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
>good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
>should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
>gets committed to the shop.
>
>Your thoughts?
============================
I have only scanned thru the replies you already have gotten BUT
I just wanted to add another...

Right off the bat I wanted to say that unless you have a major need
for the smaller portable dismiss it from your mind.... I am just
afraid that you will find it seriously lacking

Go for a contractors style saw. ..and buy the one with the best fence
or the fence you like the best.... I will never ever own a fence again
that locks both front and back... been there done that and it
sucks...others may disagree but that is my opinion......

Bob G

1) Unless you need a portable saw, you will curse it everytime you go to use
it.

2) You have gotten advice, and will get more, that you should get a $800 or
$1,200 saw.
Yeh, they are better than $500 saws, but unless you have a lot of money and
room, or do a great deal of work with big panels, they simply aren't worth
it. I couldn't fit a $1,200 saw in my workshop, even if I were inclined to
spend the money. I have to cut plywood and large panels with a circular
saw, and that is a PITA, but without the room... (Heck, I had to take the
door trim off just to get my contractor saw in!)
Don't forget, you will need a router table, a planer, a jointer, and a miter
saw to do any serious work. You have the room and money for them? (and a
drill press, belt sander, and band saw are nice to have also)

3) Used saws can be a tremendous bargain. Mine had a bunch of upgrades and
would probably retail for about $900, but I got it for $275 in perfect
condition. You might not be so lucky, but you might. (My used jointer was
$200, but the blades needed to be sharpened; oh well.)

"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:_Kiqe.14$9a1.7@trnddc01...
> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
> should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
> gets committed to the shop.
>
> Your thoughts?

I can recommend the Delta 36-649 contractor saw that some Home Depot
stores have on sale for $317. It is worth looking for. I have a Ridgid
portable
and if you need a portable it is a decent saw but I wouldn't buy it again.
The
Delta I just bought is a much better saw and cheaper to boot. The Ridgid
contractor saw looks good but is over $200 more than the Delta and you
can use the $200 for a better blade and other accessories that you will
eventually want.

Phil Davis
247PalmBeachRE.com

"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:_Kiqe.14$9a1.7@trnddc01...
> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner should
> test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe gets
> committed to the shop.
>
> Your thoughts?

No one has ever complained that a tool was too good.

I don't know your ideas about the hobby or how fat your wallet is. I
started out with a $199 Craftsman saw. I made some nice stuff but soon
realized what I was lacking. I later bought a Delta Contractor's saw with
Beisemeyer fence and I'm very happy with it. It will last me the rest of my
life. (estimated to be from 1month to 30 years.) For a $70 difference, get
what you really want.

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Surfaced wood I buy is NEVER flat enough to use "as is". Besides which,
> it's never exactly the right thickness--just close.

Well, where you buy the wood may not be, that is too bad. Fortunately I do
not have that problem. I think I would look for another supplier. If your
"surfaced" wood is not "flat enough" IMHO too much material has already been
removed and especially if is being sold as already being the right
thickness. Personally I would never consider surfaced wood that was not
flat.

That advice is for the people that can't afford it. If you can afford it,
top quality tools are worth the money. They work better and will not be a
source of frustration. They also will last longer if you get more serious
about it and have higher resale value if you don't.
Buy the best you can afford.
"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:_Kiqe.14$9a1.7@trnddc01...
> Okay, I'm brand new to the scene and what I'm hearing is that the first
> big tool to get is the table saw. Thankfully, this month's WOOD has a
> rundown. Ridgid's TS3650 won the prize for contractor-grade, and their
> TS2400 for portables.
>
> Now, the price difference is tiny: 570 versus 500. I can't think of any
> good reason to buy the smaller one. But I have read that a beginner
> should test the water, so to speak, with mid-grade equipment until heshe
> gets committed to the shop.
>
> Your thoughts?

Surfaced wood I buy is NEVER flat enough to use "as is". Besides which,
it's never exactly the right thickness--just close.

I agree that the CMS is not nearly as accurate as using a sled on the TS.

Dave

Leon wrote:

>
> Forget the jointer if you are buying S2S or better. I can easily straighten
> a board on my TS much faster and as accurately as on a jointer.
>
>
>
>>I suppose a table saw "can" substitute for a miter saw, but so can a hand
>>saw. Don't be silly.
>
>
> Once I properly equipped my TS, I absolutely quit using my 12" Delta CMS
> unless at a job site. Absolutely no comparison in accuracy to the TS and
> its jigs.
>
>