I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
(assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used
veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select
the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was
cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that
plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
stability of the wood?
If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
thanks,
dwhite
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:14:55 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind<snip o' crap>
>>
>> "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've
>> seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it." - Playwright
>> Brendan Behan (1923-1964)
>>
>> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
>
>"When you can't think of something intelligent to say, quoting a dead guy is
>always a fallback position."
>- Todd Fatheree
>
>By the way, if you were to exercise some English comprehension, I didn't
>even criticize your work, nor say that I could duplicate it. So it doesn't
>fall into a particular category, according only to me. No reason to get
>your undies in a bunch. If the definition of "high end" in your book is for
>it to be reasonably hard to produce and expensive, you're entitled to that
>opinion. No reason to go on the attack just because not everyone agrees
>with you.
>
>todd
>
Ah hell, I just like Brendan Behan.
>I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that
furniture
made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the
"real
thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture.
You know, I feel the same way about veneer. I know that a lot of fine
furniture builders have used veneers, but I still think it looks cheap.
Dick Durbin
Tom Watson wrote:
> Aw look, it had a liddle tantwum.
Jeeze, Watson, you sure get your panties in a bunch when someone dares
to disagree with you! The nerve of some people, to not recognize your
obvious superiority in all things!
Call you wrong, or say your work is anything but high-class, and the
erudite one resorts to grade school name calling! LOL I'm sure you
had a logic/argumentation class in your legendary academic career,
(which you seldom fail to mention), right? Then you of course know
what we think when you have nothing left but ad hominems...
Fatheree OWNS Watson!
What a tool. ( ObWW )
Dan White wrote:
> I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was
curious
> about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture
making
> (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier
used
> veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just
select
> the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought
plywood was
> cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears
that
> plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
> stability of the wood?
>
> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end
stuff,
> would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
>
> thanks,
> dwhite
Hi Dan,
In my business our furniture is constructed out of the real deal.
About the only place we'll use plywood is in the backs of large
dressers or the base of a china cabinet where it won't be
seen...basically only to lighten the load. There is no shortage of
lumber for me, though. I think a lot of "high end" furniture companies
use plywood simply because they can. Most of their customers can't
tell the difference anyway. I have people come into our store all the
time and expect to custom order a piece at wal-mart prices and gawk at
the price tags. Of course there those who appreciate quality and can't
believe how inexpensive the stuff is....those are the guys in to buy
lumber to build their own. Jana
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:43:06 +0800, Old Nick
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <1114605127.94f653f77d6cf7ae9b5e740935dabbc9@teranews>,
>[email protected] says...
>> Aw look, it had a liddle tantwum.
>
>By email to me, because hero watson was too gutless to expose his basic
>tantwumishness....
>
>"My name is Tom Watson. I live at xxx yyyy stweet somewhere. I am a big
>nasty bastard and you have just disagweed with me. Come over and I'll
>belt the cwap out of you, if you weally feel that you have a point I
>disagwee wit."
>
>At the time I publicly assumed that Tom Rotson was man enough to be an
>arsehole in all the viewers' view, thus tarnishing his hewo status, and
>the email was simply a nasty joke by other parties, but maybe not quite.
Now why don't you tell the nice people what really happened?
You posted the following:
Old Nick Aug 9 2004, 7:18 pm
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
From: Old Nick <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:18:10 +0800
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:21:42 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
SHIT! Go away and fish.....come back and fucking troll! Wot a jerk!
Why don't ya go an fall in that fuckn lake Watson and stop
complaining! Geez!
So I emailed the silly git my address and phone number and told him to
stop and see me sometime.
He's been whining about it ever since.
Dan White wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Dan White wrote:
> > > I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was
> > curious
> > > about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture
> > making
> > > (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and
Lannuier
> > used
> > > veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they
just
> > select
> > > the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought
> > plywood was
> > > cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it
appears
> > that
> > > plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost
and
> > > stability of the wood?
> > >
> > > If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high
end
> > stuff,
> > > would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > dwhite
> >
> > Hi Dan,
> > In my business our furniture is constructed out of the real
deal.
> > About the only place we'll use plywood is in the backs of large
> > dressers or the base of a china cabinet where it won't be
> > seen...basically only to lighten the load. There is no shortage of
> > lumber for me, though. I think a lot of "high end" furniture
companies
> > use plywood simply because they can. Most of their customers can't
> > tell the difference anyway. I have people come into our store all
the
> > time and expect to custom order a piece at wal-mart prices and gawk
at
> > the price tags. Of course there those who appreciate quality and
can't
> > believe how inexpensive the stuff is....those are the guys in to
buy
> > lumber to build their own. Jana
> >
>
> Out of curiosity, what are the most popular types of wood for
furniture that
> you produce?
>
> dwhite
Hi Dan, It depends a little on how you look at it. For locals (IA or
MN) who cusom order furniture, it would be plain sawn red oak, of
course. For either coast, it's qs white oak, hickory, or cherry, and
maple is starting to pick up again quite a bit. In the showroom we
have furniture built out of about every species we cut. The main reason
for that is that it gives people an idea of what different flavors are
available for flooring, etc...I'd have to say that about 8 out of 10
people who come in looking for red oak flooring end up choosing
something different. I'm not a huge fan of red oak, though, so I have a
tendancy to talk people into other species and on more than one
occasion..a mix of 'em all. Jana
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my
>definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For
>those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they
>consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be
>the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and
>dimensionally stable is desirable. If you want to take it to an extreme, I
>took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the
>operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul".
>Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I
>consider to be high end.
>
>todd
>
Made a dining room table once that had an elliptical top about eight
feet in the longest dimension and 42" measured at a 90 to the long
C/L.
Used 3/4" thk Appleply with bandsawn 5/16" thk flame figured
Circassian Walnut, cut from a slab that was 4" thk, glued to the
substrate.
The "veneer" met a rabbeted apron on the perimeter that included a
1/4" wide inlay of holly.
This "plywood job" was pretty high end, I'm thinking, as the folks
paid $12,000.00 for the table.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind<snip o' crap>
"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how its done, theyve
seen it done every day, but theyre unable to do it." - Playwright
Brendan Behan (1923-1964)
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Dan White wrote:
> I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
> about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
> (assuming it is).
There are quite a few designs which can really only be achieved in
plywood (or other stable sheet good), and modern furniture designs have
used the properties of plywood to make new designs. Now 'round this
group, people lean towards traditional designs, all of which were
designed to account for wood movement. Many of our 'pretty' designs,
such as frame-and-panel, are compromises to account for wood movement.
But if you open your horizons some, you will see lots of things where
plywood is not a substitute for solid wood but instead a material all
its own.
PK
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
> about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
> (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used
> veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just
select
> the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was
> cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that
> plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
> stability of the wood?
>
> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
> would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
>
> thanks,
> dwhite
IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my
definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For
those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they
consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would be
the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and
dimensionally stable is desirable. If you want to take it to an extreme, I
took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the
operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul".
Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I
consider to be high end.
todd
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:36:10 -0400, "Dan White"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
>about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
>(assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used
>veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select
>the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was
>cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that
>plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
>stability of the wood?
I've helped a number of folks move very expensive, high-end antiques,
and many of them had nasty looking unsanded barn clapboards on the
back, with beautiful facades achieved with veneer. My guess would be
that many of those old masters would have loved to have plywood to
nail onto the back and to use as a substrate if they would have had
that option.
>If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
>would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
I would, but that may be due to my skill level and lack of complete
understanding of how solid wood is going to behave when the humidity
changes.
>thanks,
>dwhite
>
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"Paul Kierstead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan White wrote:
> > I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
> > about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
> > (assuming it is).
>
> There are quite a few designs which can really only be achieved in
> plywood (or other stable sheet good), and modern furniture designs have
> used the properties of plywood to make new designs. Now 'round this
> group, people lean towards traditional designs, all of which were
> designed to account for wood movement. Many of our 'pretty' designs,
> such as frame-and-panel, are compromises to account for wood movement.
> But if you open your horizons some, you will see lots of things where
> plywood is not a substitute for solid wood but instead a material all
> its own.
>
> PK
So it sounds like modern quality furniture does incorporate plywood here and
there as needed. Maybe traditional furniture with plywood backing and frame
and panel elsewhere is a good blend of the two materials.
Thanks for the interesting responses,
dwhite
"Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a layman I always thought plywood was
> cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that
> plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
> stability of the wood?
>
> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
> would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
Plywood is more practical in that it does not have the problems associated
with wood movement that solid wood does.
If today's plywood was available a couple of centuries ago, I have to
wonder if the old masters would have used it. I also have to wonder about
the quality of wood from the old growth trees from many years ago compared
to what is available today. Of course, there was a lot of cheaper furniture
made that did not survive the centuries either because of inferior material
or inferior workmanship.
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture".
>
> And who would know better than you?
Why, the all-knowing Tom Watson, of course.
> >But then,my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone
else's.
>
> Do tell.
I did. So did a lot of other people. But when you're all-knowing like you,
you can just discount all that.
> > For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what
they
> >> >consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that
would
> >be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and
> >> >dimensionally stable is desirable.
>
> And yet, when I presented you with exactly that situation, you chose
> to nullify my experience, through some feat of mental gymnastics that
> I am not privy to.
What about your experience did I nullify? I asked how many make fine
quality table tops from plywood. So far as I can tell, you're the only one
who said they have. Fine. That's one vote for "plywood is an excellent
choice for high quality tables".
> >If you want to take it to an extreme,I
> >> >took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago
>
> sigh...
Ah. More arrogance. Obviously, if someone took a class, they don't know
anything.
> > and the head of the
> >> >operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a
"soul".
>
> This is damned interesting to me. I have a MA in philosophy and I
> have never been able to be sure that I have a soul, let alone delving
> into the possibility that wood that is cut thick has a soul, while
> wood that is cut thin has none.
Well, as I said, that was the opinion of a very well-respected and very
long-time woodworker who runs the apprenticeship program at Chicago Bauhaus,
not mine. But in my mind, there's a little bit of difference between a
solid piece of wood and a bunch of thin pieces of wood pressed together with
formaldehyde glue in a factory. And if you've read any of the other posts,
you'll find I'm not alone in this thinking.
> >> >Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in
anything I
> >> >consider to be high end.
>
> And your definition of "High End" is what?
Well, there's a certain je ne sais quoi when trying to fully define it, but
it doesn't include sheet goods. Or are you the only person in the universe
capable of making that determination?
> >As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind between "high end" and
> >"expensive".
>
> This doesn't sound snotty to you?
No more than you sound like an ass.
> >There are certainly projects where plywood makes things
> >infinitely easier.
>
> No shit?
Seriously. Kitchen cabinets come to mind.
> >todd
> >
>
>
> Dude:
>
> Stay in Chicago.
>
> You don't know dick and the Pizza in Philly is more than you can
> handle.
Hey, when you run out of clever things to say, just call someone a dick. It
really bolsters your argument. I'm not sure how pizza figures into this.
Why don't you just stick to cheesesteak and leave the real pizza to the
pros? Make sure to be safe in the shop too. Climbing down off that high
horse can be dangerous.
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
todd
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then,
my
> >definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For
> >those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they
> >consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would
be
> >the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and
> >dimensionally stable is desirable. If you want to take it to an extreme,
I
> >took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the
> >operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul".
> >Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I
> >consider to be high end.
> >
> >todd
> >
>
> Made a dining room table once that had an elliptical top about eight
> feet in the longest dimension and 42" measured at a 90 to the long
> C/L.
That would be the major and minor axes.
> Used 3/4" thk Appleply with bandsawn 5/16" thk flame figured
> Circassian Walnut, cut from a slab that was 4" thk, glued to the
> substrate.
>
> The "veneer" met a rabbeted apron on the perimeter that included a
> 1/4" wide inlay of holly.
>
> This "plywood job" was pretty high end, I'm thinking, as the folks
> paid $12,000.00 for the table.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind between "high end" and
"expensive". There are certainly projects where plywood makes things
infinitely easier.
todd
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind<snip o' crap>
>
> "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've
> seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it." - Playwright
> Brendan Behan (1923-1964)
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
"When you can't think of something intelligent to say, quoting a dead guy is
always a fallback position."
- Todd Fatheree
By the way, if you were to exercise some English comprehension, I didn't
even criticize your work, nor say that I could duplicate it. So it doesn't
fall into a particular category, according only to me. No reason to get
your undies in a bunch. If the definition of "high end" in your book is for
it to be reasonably hard to produce and expensive, you're entitled to that
opinion. No reason to go on the attack just because not everyone agrees
with you.
todd
Dan White says...
> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
> would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
The answer is definitely yes in some cases. For the back panel of a
bookcase for example, why use anything else? Plywood wins in every
category in an application like that. It's stable, and that is a very
important thing for a large panel. It stands a better chance of keeping
its shape over the long haul. You don't have to engineer in tricks to
allow for expansion and contraction. It provides a surface of uniform
color and grain. Have you ever seen walnut plywood? It is absolutely
gorgeous. Color and grain matching of large areas with solid wood is an
exercise in futility for the most part. Show me one case where money
and supply are not factors. Where are you going to find enough ebony to
make a banquet table? No matter how high-end the product, cost is
always a factor. If it wasn't, then it would be art, not craftsmanship,
and only one of anything would be made. DaVinci only produced one Mona
Lisa, but Stradivari made over 1,100 musical instruments. Are you
beginning to see the difference? If high end was the same thing as
money being no object, then every piece of high end woodwork should be
covered with carvings, inlays and marquetry. But who is going to pay
for that? Nobody I know, not even most millionaires. Like anything
else, high end is a relative thing.
Some woods are unique, like if it has curly figure, and a veneer over
plywood not only means it will cover more area, but you can bookmatch
pieces for an even better effect. If the wood isn't very strong or
stable, and some figured wood is not, then you get the strength and
stability of plywood to go with the look of the wood. Plywood is high
end compared to particle board and MDF, and really cheap furniture
seldom contains plywood. But it isn't even particle board or MDF that
is the biggest problem with most cheap furniture, it is the design and
how it is used. You can buy a home entertainment center at Wal-Mart for
$100 that will sag if you use it as advertised, but I could make one out
of MDF that would keep its shape, because I would use thicker material
and support it where it was needed.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Besides, tell that to DJM as he applies quilted veneer to a substrate of
> plwood for a piece of what is inarguably "high end" furniture.
>
As a substrate, plywood is OK. Although MDF would do as well. But even
hardwood plywood nowadays has such thin surface layers as to be easily
damaged in use, if not sanded/scraped through while finishing.
I do agree that our ancestors had access to much better quality wood
than we do today - and at little cost. Unfortunately, they used it all
:-).
--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description
In article <1114605127.94f653f77d6cf7ae9b5e740935dabbc9@teranews>,
[email protected] says...
> Aw look, it had a liddle tantwum.
By email to me, because hero watson was too gutless to expose his basic
tantwumishness....
"My name is Tom Watson. I live at xxx yyyy stweet somewhere. I am a big
nasty bastard and you have just disagweed with me. Come over and I'll
belt the cwap out of you, if you weally feel that you have a point I
disagwee wit."
At the time I publicly assumed that Tom Rotson was man enough to be an
arsehole in all the viewers' view, thus tarnishing his hewo status, and
the email was simply a nasty joke by other parties, but maybe not quite.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Dan White wrote:
> > I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was
> curious
> > about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture
> making
> > (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier
> used
> > veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just
> select
> > the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought
> plywood was
> > cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears
> that
> > plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
> > stability of the wood?
> >
> > If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end
> stuff,
> > would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
> >
> > thanks,
> > dwhite
>
> Hi Dan,
> In my business our furniture is constructed out of the real deal.
> About the only place we'll use plywood is in the backs of large
> dressers or the base of a china cabinet where it won't be
> seen...basically only to lighten the load. There is no shortage of
> lumber for me, though. I think a lot of "high end" furniture companies
> use plywood simply because they can. Most of their customers can't
> tell the difference anyway. I have people come into our store all the
> time and expect to custom order a piece at wal-mart prices and gawk at
> the price tags. Of course there those who appreciate quality and can't
> believe how inexpensive the stuff is....those are the guys in to buy
> lumber to build their own. Jana
>
Out of curiosity, what are the most popular types of wood for furniture that
you produce?
dwhite
"Olebiker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that
> furniture
> made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the
> "real
> thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture.
>
> You know, I feel the same way about veneer. I know that a lot of fine
> furniture builders have used veneers, but I still think it looks cheap.
>
> Dick Durbin
Whoa, there, Dick. Better be prepared to be called either stupid or
untalented by Mr. Watson for a remark like that. He might even bust out his
book of quotes on you.
todd
>> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end
>> stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
I'm sorry that this has devolved into a pi$$ing contest.
Much of the output of the alumni (and faculty, for that matter) of the
College of the Redwoods over the past decade or so has used veneer,
generally shop cut, over whatever substrates made the most sense for the
project. Often, that was a process very similar to that described by Mr.
Watson.
Note also the Scandinavian master designers of the mid-twentieth century.
And Jere Osgood, who has a piece or three in the world's better museums
'Quality' is well executed material and design, whatever material that may
turn out to be.
Patriarch,
who knows a few great wooddorkers, and admires them, more than he can
emulate their craft...
Seismo Malm <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> While not exactly made from plywood (these are first bended, then
> glued up) Alvar Aalto designed several chairs that were quite high end
> in 1920's and 1930's and even designed and made for invidual orders.
> Here is a link to a web page with images:
> http://www.alvaraalto.fi/alvar/design/chair/english.htm
>
> I think that especially the chair in top right corner is pretty qood
> example what can be made from plywood and still be considerrerd of
> being of very good quality. These chairs are still pretty expensive
> today, despite of being mass produced.
>
> I don't think that these are high end anymore cos of mass production
> but I like them very much. Artek web pages have links where his
> furniture is used, see
> http://www.artek.fi
>
> seismo malm (from finland)
>
An interesting contention: That high-end furniture cannot be
simultaneously mass produced. The contention is that exclusivity is
inherent in the 'quality' of the product, and replication, with no other
changes, somehow reduces the appropriateness of the design.
I contend that it only changes the price, and thereby, the
accessibility.
My best respects to the Finns, who, having relatively scarce physical
resources, and being few in number, have determined to, and largely
succeeded at, exporting intelligent, thoughtful design in selected
products, and done well thereby.
Patriarch
"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
> IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture".
Does "high end" mean "high dollar"? If so, a perusal of
http://www.wonderwood.nl/plywood/ should put some all plywood pieces in the
running.
A master uses whatever material is appropriate. Being that there are damn
few masters hereabouts, I suspect most responses against plywood in fine
furniture are based on a preconceived prejudice.
Besides, tell that to DJM as he applies quilted veneer to a substrate of
plwood for a piece of what is inarguably "high end" furniture.
> If you want to take it to an extreme, I
> took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the
> operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul".
Sounds like the music business... those that can, do; those that can't,
teach others to do what they can't make a living at themselves.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/17/05
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:36:18 -0400, Paul Kierstead
<[email protected]> wrote:
>But if you open your horizons some, you will see lots of things where
>plywood is not a substitute for solid wood but instead a material all
>its own.
Bingo!! Just because the letters w.o.o.d. appear in the name, doesn't
mean it's the same thing, or should be treated as such.
(See also: electric guitar vs acoustic guitar...)
Lee
Todd Fatheree wrote:
> "Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
>> about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
>> (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used
>> veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just
> select
>> the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood
>> was cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears
>> that plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
>> stability of the wood?
>>
>> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
>> would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
>>
>> thanks,
>> dwhite
>
> IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture". But then, my
> definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's. For
> those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they
> consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would
> be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and
> dimensionally stable is desirable.
The trouble with ply as a tabletop is twofold. First you have to edge it
with something and that something is going to be visible and affect the
design. Second, unless it's made from all hardwood plies it's going to
ding easily even through the veneer. A panel in a door where the edges are
concealed by the rail and stile would IMO be a more appropriate use.
> If you want to take it to an extreme,
> I took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago and the head of the
> operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul".
> Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I
> consider to be high end.
>
> todd
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Dan White wrote:
> I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
> about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
> (assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used
> veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just
> select
> the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was
> cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that
> plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
> stability of the wood?
>
> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
> would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
Read up on Eames chairs. You will find that they are generally considered
by people who are into that sort of thing and whose style they suit to be
highly desirable pieces of furniture. Mine's over 40 years old and still
looks new. Now, look at the design and tell me how you would implement
that in anything _but_ plywood and have the same result.
From an engineering viewpoint, plywood is a material with certain
properties. When designing a piece of furniture sometimes those properties
suit it better than anything else for a particular component. In those
cases it should be used.
Now, with regard to your question about "high end stuff", veneer is often
used on expensive furniture because it is very difficult to achieve some
effects any other way--try to get a diamond match on a tabletop for example
without having weak corners. As a substrate for veneer plywood is
excellent--better than solid wood because it does not move nearly as much
in service and so does not stress the veneer or the bond.
Now, with regard to Phyfe and Lannuier, Phyfe died in 1854 and Lannuier in
1819, but commercial plywood as we know it first went into production in
1905, so they certainly did not use the kind of plywood we buy from
lumberyards. Whether they made their own I have no idea.
> thanks,
> dwhite
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Olebiker <[email protected]> wrote:
:>I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that
: furniture
: made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the
: "real
: thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture.
: You know, I feel the same way about veneer. I know that a lot of fine
: furniture builders have used veneers, but I still think it looks cheap.
Have a look at Ruhlmann's furniture from the 20s-30s.
Cheap it ain't (on any construal of the word).
- Andy barss
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:02:56 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:21:06 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >IMHO, I don't think ply has a place in "high end furniture".
And who would know better than you?
>But then,my definition of high end furniture might differ from someone else's.
Do tell.
> For those who tend to disagree, I would ask them how many have made what they
>> >consider to be a fine quality table top from plywood, because that would
>be the perfect example of an application where something large, flat, and
>> >dimensionally stable is desirable.
And yet, when I presented you with exactly that situation, you chose
to nullify my experience, through some feat of mental gymnastics that
I am not privy to.
>If you want to take it to an extreme,I
>> >took a couple of woodworking classes here in Chicago
sigh...
> and the head of the
>> >operation told me that, unlike solid wood, plywood doesn't have a "soul".
This is damned interesting to me. I have a MA in philosophy and I
have never been able to be sure that I have a soul, let alone delving
into the possibility that wood that is cut thick has a soul, while
wood that is cut thin has none.
>> >Now, I'm not ready to go quite that far, but I don't use it in anything I
>> >consider to be high end.
And your definition of "High End" is what?
>> >
>> >todd
>> >
>>
>> Made a dining room table once that had an elliptical top about eight
>> feet in the longest dimension and 42" measured at a 90 to the long
>> C/L.
>
>That would be the major and minor axes.
>
>> Used 3/4" thk Appleply with bandsawn 5/16" thk flame figured
>> Circassian Walnut, cut from a slab that was 4" thk, glued to the
>> substrate.
>>
>> The "veneer" met a rabbeted apron on the perimeter that included a
>> 1/4" wide inlay of holly.
>>
>> This "plywood job" was pretty high end, I'm thinking, as the folks
>> paid $12,000.00 for the table.
>>
>> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
>
>As I suspected, there's a difference in my mind between "high end" and
>"expensive".
This doesn't sound snotty to you?
>There are certainly projects where plywood makes things
>infinitely easier.
No shit?
>
>todd
>
Dude:
Stay in Chicago.
You don't know dick and the Pizza in Philly is more than you can
handle.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:36:10 -0400, "Dan White"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I know, a basic question. I'm not much of a woodworker, but was curious
>about when plywood started to be accepted in high end furniture making
>(assuming it is). Now I guess guys like Duncan Pfyfe and Lannuier used
>veneers (I think) but I don't think they used plywood. Did they just select
>the best boards they could find? As a layman I always thought plywood was
>cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears that
>plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
>stability of the wood?
>
>If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end stuff,
>would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
>
>thanks,
>dwhite
>
Ply is used for many things: drawer bottoms, carcass backs, etc.
Cabinet-grade ply is not cheap. Most of my projects do not use
plywood, but I don't rule it out either. Ply is more stable than
soild wood.
In article <[email protected]>,
Patriarch wrote:
>>> If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end
>>> stuff, would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
>
> I'm sorry that this has devolved into a pi$$ing contest.
>
> Much of the output of the alumni (and faculty, for that matter) of the
> College of the Redwoods over the past decade or so has used veneer,
> generally shop cut, over whatever substrates made the most sense for the
> project. Often, that was a process very similar to that described by Mr.
> Watson.
>
> Note also the Scandinavian master designers of the mid-twentieth century.
> And Jere Osgood, who has a piece or three in the world's better museums
>
> 'Quality' is well executed material and design, whatever material that may
> turn out to be.
>
> Patriarch,
> who knows a few great wooddorkers, and admires them, more than he can
> emulate their craft...
While not exactly made from plywood (these are first bended, then glued
up) Alvar Aalto designed several chairs that were quite high end in 1920's
and 1930's and even designed and made for invidual orders. Here is a link
to a web page with images:
http://www.alvaraalto.fi/alvar/design/chair/english.htm
I think that especially the chair in top right corner is pretty qood
example what can be made from plywood and still be considerrerd of being
of very good quality. These chairs are still pretty expensive today,
despite of being mass produced.
I don't think that these are high end anymore cos of mass production but I
like them very much. Artek web pages have links where his furniture is
used, see
http://www.artek.fi
seismo malm (from finland)
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dan White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > As a layman I always thought plywood was
> > cheap crap made to look like the real thing, but now I see it appears
that
> > plywood is preferred to solid board, or is that just due to cost and
> > stability of the wood?
> >
> > If money and supply were no option, as it shouldn't be on high end
stuff,
> > would you still prefer a plywood veneer?
>
> Plywood is more practical in that it does not have the problems associated
> with wood movement that solid wood does.
>
> If today's plywood was available a couple of centuries ago, I have to
> wonder if the old masters would have used it. I also have to wonder about
> the quality of wood from the old growth trees from many years ago compared
> to what is available today. Of course, there was a lot of cheaper
furniture
> made that did not survive the centuries either because of inferior
material
> or inferior workmanship.
>
I guess I didn't voice the opinion, but I have the feeling that furniture
made from plywood, no matter how beautiful it may be, still isn't the "real
thing" if you are looking for really high end furniture. Again, just a
layman's view.
dwhite