LL

LdB

06/07/2010 12:34 PM

Raised Panel Door Question

I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style
frame routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The
raised panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame
opening. Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to
cushion the panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to
compensate for any movement in the wood over time.

I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice,
I'm just the helper with the tools.

Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood
doors? Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame
openings, then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style
frame slots?

Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?

LDB


This topic has 17 replies

ww

whit3rd

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 3:37 PM

On Jul 6, 10:34=A0am, LdB <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've made raised panel doors out of wood. =A0Standard rail and style
> frame routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The
> raised panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame
> opening. Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame

> I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
> same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF.

So, do it the same as with wood. The panel shrinkage isn't
the only purpose of those rubber bits, they also keep it
from rattling.

You might use glues that can be softened/removed, and if
your friends want to spiff up the place, they can go with wood
panels on a future rebuild.

NN

"Nonny"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

07/07/2010 1:45 PM


"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I have used MDF several times for customers at their request.
> They painted them and were happy, repeadedly. One of my
> customers re did his kitchen and a few years later moved and did
> the MDF again. 8 years later he is is still happy and the doors
> still look great.
>
> With that in mind I do strongly suggest the use of Euro style
> hinges. These style hinges will support the weight of the doors
> with out screws, however the screws are necessary to keep the
> doors from sliding off of the hinge.
>

I see little difference in the MDF cabinets being discussed and
most of the melamine-coated box cabinets sold in stores. The only
difference in most is that the fiber/sawdust material is covered
with a plastic skin. In my shop, I made the cabinet doors out of
birch faced particle board and they held up perfectly well.

Yes, the European style hinges are the way to go.

Nonny


--
On most days,
it’s just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

JJ

"Josepi"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

07/07/2010 5:11 PM

Thanx for that link!
Where? London Ontario


I am just getting around to that stage on my new house, I am building.



"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
MDF doors are VERY common and when coated, quite nice...

Take a peek and then wonder why you are going to go to
a LOT of trouble making doors that can be bought rather
cheaply....

http://www.cabinetmart.com/shop/Thermofoil-Covered-Doors.43


PB

Pat Barber

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

07/07/2010 4:44 PM

MDF doors are VERY common and when coated, quite nice...

Take a peek and then wonder why you are going to go to
a LOT of trouble making doors that can be bought rather
cheaply....

http://www.cabinetmart.com/shop/Thermofoil-Covered-Doors.43

or Google "thermofoil doors" for a few thousand companies that
can do it much faster and much cheaper than you can...

Look for one piece doors for the cheaper variety that will
be painted.

The thermofoil comes in a LOT of flavors and colors.

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 7/6/2010 1:34 PM, LdB wrote:
>> I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style frame
>> routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The raised
>> panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame opening.
>> Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to cushion the
>> panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to compensate for any
>> movement in the wood over time.
>>
>> I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
>> same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice, I'm
>> just the helper with the tools.
>>
>> Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood doors?
>> Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame openings,
>> then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style frame slots?
>>
>> Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
>> rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?

N

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 9:49 PM



> I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style
> frame routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The
> raised panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame
> opening. Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to
> cushion the panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to
> compensate for any movement in the wood over time.
>
> I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
> same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice,
> I'm just the helper with the tools.
>
> Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood
> doors? Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame
> openings, then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style
> frame slots?
>
> Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
> rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?
>
> LDB

MDF is pretty stable until you finish it, especially with a water-based
finish. Then it swells. If you cut your panels to a close fit and then finish
them with, say, water-based polyurethane after assembly, they'll break your
rails and stiles apart.

BT,DT. Amen.

Nemo

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LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 6:24 PM


"LdB" wrote:

> Thanks for the replies. The doors are completely MDF.
------------------------
If they are going to be painted with latex, be a good idea to seal the
MDF with a coat of dewaxed shellac first.

Lew

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 10:36 PM


"LdB" wrote:

> Thanks for the replies. The doors are completely MDF. Not my choice.
> I've never used the stuff before and may never use it again.
-----------------------------
Sounds like cost is driving all decisions.

Have you tried asking them to consider poplar for rails, stiles and
face frames?

The difference in cost might surprise them.

Lew


PB

Pat Barber

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

08/07/2010 2:24 PM

Those were just the first ones I saw on a google search.

There are "many" companies that make MDF cabinet doors.

I'm sure there are several in Ontario.

Josepi wrote:
> Thanx for that link!
> Where? London Ontario
>
>
> I am just getting around to that stage on my new house, I am building.

PB

Pat Barber

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

07/07/2010 4:57 PM

Here is a perfect example with sample pricing...

http://www.cpandwcabinetdoors.com/mdf-cabinet-doors.htm

$15 per door and you are considering making your own doors ???

It ain't fine furniture but it will work in the correct application.

JJ

"Josepi"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

08/07/2010 8:17 PM

I am sure there would be in Ontario but I have trouble finding stuff where I
am.

The website order form is pretty well done and prices are there without
calling to beg for info. A lot of cross reference stuff to do to learn all
the terms, though.


"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Those were just the first ones I saw on a google search.

There are "many" companies that make MDF cabinet doors.

I'm sure there are several in Ontario.

Josepi wrote:
> Thanx for that link!
> Where? London Ontario
>
>
> I am just getting around to that stage on my new house, I am building.

Sb

"SonomaProducts.com"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 10:07 PM

If the cupboards fall apart they can
> find that salesman and get him to make things right.

Good luck with that. Will never happen.

The door edges with dent and the paint will chip and then most of the
corners will start to clip off and in about a month they will have
some really bad looking stuff. Really bad.

LL

LdB

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 6:09 PM

On 7/6/2010 12:34 PM, LdB wrote:
> I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style frame
> routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The raised
> panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame opening.
> Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to cushion the
> panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to compensate for any
> movement in the wood over time.
>
> I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
> same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice, I'm
> just the helper with the tools.
>
> Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood doors?
> Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame openings,
> then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style frame slots?
>
> Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
> rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?
>
> LDB

Thanks for the replies. The doors are completely MDF. Not my choice.
I've never used the stuff before and may never use it again. At least
not in anything going into my house.

Some salesman did a number on my friends and convinced them that MDF
is as good as wood. I tried to change their minds but gave up. The
cupboards are going in their house not mine. They bought the material
and are doing most of the work. If the cupboards fall apart they can
find that salesman and get him to make things right. At least they
will use euro hinges on the doors. They should hold fast for some time.

We will build the doors with the rubber barrels. There may be some
expansion caused by the paint. That's something I hadn't thought about
and I have no idea what they will finish the doors with. The barrels
will also prevent rattling as well. I new that, just didn't think
about it.

Thanks again. I just thought I could save a bit of time, but when you
think about it there's not much difference.

LdB

Ll

"Leon"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

07/07/2010 9:11 AM


"LdB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 7/6/2010 12:34 PM, LdB wrote:

>
> Thanks for the replies. The doors are completely MDF. Not my choice. I've
> never used the stuff before and may never use it again. At least not in
> anything going into my house.
>
> Some salesman did a number on my friends and convinced them that MDF is as
> good as wood. I tried to change their minds but gave up. The cupboards are
> going in their house not mine. They bought the material and are doing most
> of the work. If the cupboards fall apart they can find that salesman and
> get him to make things right. At least they will use euro hinges on the
> doors. They should hold fast for some time.
>
> We will build the doors with the rubber barrels. There may be some
> expansion caused by the paint. That's something I hadn't thought about and
> I have no idea what they will finish the doors with. The barrels will
> also prevent rattling as well. I new that, just didn't think about it.
>
> Thanks again. I just thought I could save a bit of time, but when you
> think about it there's not much difference.
>
> LdB

I have used MDF several times for customers at their request. They painted
them and were happy, repeadedly. One of my customers re did his kitchen and
a few years later moved and did the MDF again. 8 years later he is is still
happy and the doors still look great.

With that in mind I do strongly suggest the use of Euro style hinges. These
style hinges will support the weight of the doors with out screws, however
the screws are necessary to keep the doors from sliding off of the hinge.

LL

LdB

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

07/07/2010 12:21 PM

On 7/7/2010 12:36 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "LdB" wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the replies. The doors are completely MDF. Not my choice.
>> I've never used the stuff before and may never use it again.
> -----------------------------
> Sounds like cost is driving all decisions.
>
> Have you tried asking them to consider poplar for rails, stiles and
> face frames?
>
> The difference in cost might surprise them.
>
> Lew
>
>
>


I tried to convince them to use wood for the rails and stiles. Wasn't
going to happen. They wouldn't even consider routing a quarter round
around the door edges to minimize dents and chipping of the corners.
They're a retired couple, good friends and they both helped me build
my house and cupboards. No kids, so the cupboards shouldn't be abused.

Here's an image of the my cupboards. Made from sawmill lumber.

http://www.mts.net/~lmlod/cupboards3.jpg

I will get them to put a coat of sealer on the MDF before they paint.
I was thinking a coat of urethane. You suggested dewaxed shellac.
Would shellac make a better first coat than urethane?

LdB

sD

[email protected] (Doug Miller)

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 5:52 PM

In article <[email protected]>, LdB <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style
>frame routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The
>raised panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame
>opening. Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to
>cushion the panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to
>compensate for any movement in the wood over time.
>
>I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
>same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice,
>I'm just the helper with the tools.

Hopefully, you're making only the raised panels from MDF. The rails and stiles
should still be solid wood: MDF doesn't hold screws very well.
>
>Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood
>doors? Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame
>openings, then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style
>frame slots?

Not necessary, since MDF isn't going to change size with the seasons.
>
>Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
>rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?

I wouldn't glue it. You'll still want it a trifle smaller than the opening,
since solid-wood rails and stiles are going to expand a little bit. This time
of year, in the northern hemisphere, you could make it the same size as the
opening; as the humidity decreases in the winter months, the rails and stiles
will shrink a little bit and make the fit a trifle loose.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 5:08 PM

On 7/6/2010 1:34 PM, LdB wrote:
> I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style frame
> routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The raised
> panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame opening.
> Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to cushion the
> panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to compensate for any
> movement in the wood over time.
>
> I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
> same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice, I'm
> just the helper with the tools.
>
> Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood doors?
> Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame openings,
> then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style frame slots?
>
> Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
> rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?

The whole door MDF? Or just the panel? If just the panel, treat it
like any other raised panel. If the whole door (bad idea) then do it
whatever way is easiest for you.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to LdB on 06/07/2010 12:34 PM

06/07/2010 9:09 PM

On 7/6/2010 7:09 PM, LdB wrote:
> On 7/6/2010 12:34 PM, LdB wrote:
>> I've made raised panel doors out of wood. Standard rail and style frame
>> routed with a profile to hold the raised panel in place. The raised
>> panels are made slightly smaller that the rail and style frame opening.
>> Small rubber barrels are put in the slots of the frame to cushion the
>> panel and keep it in place. I assume this is done to compensate for any
>> movement in the wood over time.
>>
>> I'm now helping friends build their cupboards. These doors will be the
>> same raised panel type but are being made out of MDF. Not my choice, I'm
>> just the helper with the tools.
>>
>> Is there any reason to make the MDF doors any different than wood doors?
>> Should we make the MDF raised panels smaller than the frame openings,
>> then use the same rubber barrels in the MDF rail and style frame slots?
>>
>> Can the MDF raised panels be made the same size as the opening in the
>> rail and style frame? If so should the raised panel be glued into place?
>>
>> LDB
>
> Thanks for the replies. The doors are completely MDF. Not my choice.
> I've never used the stuff before and may never use it again. At least
> not in anything going into my house.
>
> Some salesman did a number on my friends and convinced them that MDF is
> as good as wood. I tried to change their minds but gave up. The
> cupboards are going in their house not mine. They bought the material
> and are doing most of the work. If the cupboards fall apart they can
> find that salesman and get him to make things right. At least they will
> use euro hinges on the doors. They should hold fast for some time.

They're not going to fall apart but the edges are going to get beat up
pretty quickly.

> We will build the doors with the rubber barrels. There may be some
> expansion caused by the paint. That's something I hadn't thought about
> and I have no idea what they will finish the doors with. The barrels
> will also prevent rattling as well. I new that, just didn't think about it.
>
> Thanks again. I just thought I could save a bit of time, but when you
> think about it there's not much difference.

MDF machines really well--you can cut the doors out of a solid piece and
machine them to look like raised panel if you have the right tooling.


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