"Perceived need" is merely a motivating factor that causes the consumer to
"buy". I would go as far to say you've proven my point in your effort to
disprove it. I'll concur that the medical industry needs "guidance" but what
it really needs is competition....not governmental intervention. The
original post was concerning OSB. A commodity item with a market value
determined by good ol' supply and demand. An item at a totally different
end of the spectrum from say cancer treatment. Rather than leap to an
extreme focus on the middle ground. Rather than throw out a label of
"capitalism" understand that the less of something there is to go around the
more it cost. To that point medicine is a perfect example. What does said
cancer treatment cost versus ibuprofen? What is the cost of production
versus the consumption ratio of both drugs? Granted my statement of
"restraint and discipline" doesn't apply to this end of the spectrum.....but
it does apply to most of it.
Who was it that said, "There are lies, Damn lies, and statistics."
Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{who found OSB prices going up BEFORE the Iraq 'situation'. }
"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Inflation? What inflation. . . . .
SNIP
>
> Ah, statistics...
>
> Renata
I sell framing lumber for a living and trust me...you're not the only one
asking questions. What I've been told and am telling my customers is this:
In the 90's, an abundance of mills were opened to manufacture OSB. OSB is
considered an engineered product and is a major component of many other
engineered products. With building nationwide at a decline many of the mills
started shutting down or focusing on these other engineered products such as
I-Joists or Smart Side. This brought the supply down. Having just gotten
out of hurricane season, forest fires in California and one of the most
active tornado seasons in history, coupled with a surge in building due to
lower interest rates etc. the demand far exceeded production. Add into the
equation the mandatory EPA inspections and new compliance laws and the
annual winter maintenance which requires the shut-down of operations and you
have what you have now. Outrageously priced OSB at over $500 msf. There is
a bright side to all of this. This week OSB dropped over $140 and the
feeling is it will continue to plummet. With prices at a premium the mills
have been jumping through their asses to get in on it however this
ultimately causes an abundance so the supply will exceed the demand and you
may see OSB cheaper than ever for a short while. Then they will back off
production to bring the price back up and so on and so on till it levels out
at a price where everyone is happy again. Inflation is ultimately
controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT. I had to throw that in.
Now I'll be ducking all sorts of comments. Just to add to the fire I'll toss
this in too..... It's not the government's job to eliminate the needs for
restraint and discipline. I see all sorts of people building 500k to a
million dollar homes griping about how much it costs. If you use too much
of it there will be a shortage... simple as that.
Laying low till this blows over,
Mel
--
"If you are arrogant, who's going to care if you're the best?"
Hmmm, steak is cheap up here (Canada) <g!>
Ranchers are selling it to "hunters" for $0.25/lb on the hoof.....
Rob
--
Remove CC for email and please visit our web site:
http://www.robswoodworking.com
"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Inflation? What inflation. The report just out states that wholesale
> prices dropped showing that our "economic resurgence" is not fanning
> inflation. Wholesale prices of what, I'm not sure. Plus, I'm
> noticing that gas prices have plummetted in the last couple days,
> dropping about 4 cents. I'm sure this is gonna be headlines.
>
> Meanwhile, steak (yowser!), insurance, and all kinds of sundries keep
> going up, up, up. But, hey, unemployment dropped point one percent
> and folks are now saying our resurgent economy is gonna reassure a GOP
> re-election. Yea!
>
> Ah, statistics...
>
> Renata
>
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:54:24 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The question is more likely: "What the hell happened to government/media
> >reporting on inflation?". Notice the price of steak, paper goods, and
just
> >about anything else these days. A woodworking magazine on the newsstand
will
> >blow the hell out of a ten dollar bill, while a fraction of a percentage
> >point rise in employment will have the government spokesman and talking
> >heads edging out Scot and Michael.
> >
> >Odds are the OSB went to Iraq ... so you have to pay more.
> >
> >--
> >www.e-woodshop.net
> >Last update: 9/21/03
> >
> >"rllipham" wrote in message
> >> I put OSB from HD in my shop about 2 years ago. I paid less than $5
> >> per sheet out the door. I went ot buy one sheet and it was almost $18
> >> after taxes. Other wood prices have not tripled. Any ideas.
> >>
> >> BTW the OSB is still at HD. I could not see paying that much.
> >
> >
>
Hope it didn't run out on the floor right there! ;>)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
<Greg G.> wrote in message
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:41:28 GMT, Mark
> wrote:
>
> >When was the last time a piece of OSB made you go into convulsions or
> >made your stool runny?
>
> Two days ago when I went to the local Lowes to pick up 5 sheets of
> roof sheathing... Wow! $17.00 a sheet!
>
> Greg
What you don't seem to understand is that you're saying the same thing I am,
and you were agreeing with me. ;>)
My first phrase was:
"In a model capitalistic society, maybe .."
IOW, this ain't a "model capitalistic society" we're talking about.
I could not agree more with what you say below.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03.
"mel" wrote in message
> "Perceived need" is merely a motivating factor that causes the consumer to
> "buy". I would go as far to say you've proven my point in your effort to
> disprove it. I'll concur that the medical industry needs "guidance" but
what
> it really needs is competition....not governmental intervention. The
> original post was concerning OSB. A commodity item with a market value
> determined by good ol' supply and demand. An item at a totally different
> end of the spectrum from say cancer treatment. Rather than leap to an
> extreme focus on the middle ground. Rather than throw out a label of
> "capitalism" understand that the less of something there is to go around
the
> more it cost. To that point medicine is a perfect example. What does said
> cancer treatment cost versus ibuprofen? What is the cost of production
> versus the consumption ratio of both drugs? Granted my statement of
> "restraint and discipline" doesn't apply to this end of the
spectrum.....but
> it does apply to most of it.
>
>
John wrote:
> What happened to this post? Could it have anything to do with the Trade
> issues with Canada and their soft wood lumber products? With less product
> going out the border here it sure has affected prices.
>
> John
>
> "rllipham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I put OSB from HD in my shop about 2 years ago. I paid less than $5
> > per sheet out the door. I went ot buy one sheet and it was almost $18
> > after taxes. Other wood prices have not tripled. Any ideas.
> >
> > BTW the OSB is still at HD. I could not see paying that much.
Well it dropped in the Portland OR area a little bit in the last week. It's
now about $13-$14 at the local HD, down almost $4 from two weeks ago.
Inflation? What inflation. The report just out states that wholesale
prices dropped showing that our "economic resurgence" is not fanning
inflation. Wholesale prices of what, I'm not sure. Plus, I'm
noticing that gas prices have plummetted in the last couple days,
dropping about 4 cents. I'm sure this is gonna be headlines.
Meanwhile, steak (yowser!), insurance, and all kinds of sundries keep
going up, up, up. But, hey, unemployment dropped point one percent
and folks are now saying our resurgent economy is gonna reassure a GOP
re-election. Yea!
Ah, statistics...
Renata
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:54:24 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The question is more likely: "What the hell happened to government/media
>reporting on inflation?". Notice the price of steak, paper goods, and just
>about anything else these days. A woodworking magazine on the newsstand will
>blow the hell out of a ten dollar bill, while a fraction of a percentage
>point rise in employment will have the government spokesman and talking
>heads edging out Scot and Michael.
>
>Odds are the OSB went to Iraq ... so you have to pay more.
>
>--
>www.e-woodshop.net
>Last update: 9/21/03
>
>"rllipham" wrote in message
>> I put OSB from HD in my shop about 2 years ago. I paid less than $5
>> per sheet out the door. I went ot buy one sheet and it was almost $18
>> after taxes. Other wood prices have not tripled. Any ideas.
>>
>> BTW the OSB is still at HD. I could not see paying that much.
>
>
Renata notes:
>Meanwhile, steak (yowser!), insurance, and all kinds of sundries keep
>going up, up, up. But, hey, unemployment dropped point one percent
>and folks are now saying our resurgent economy is gonna reassure a GOP
>re-election. Yea!
>
>Ah, statistics...
Unemployment, though, didn't drop in the new applications for unemployment. Not
only didn't the expected drop show up, but the rise was considerable.
I love unemployment stats: depending on the state, coverage stops at 26 or 39
or some similar number of weeks, at which point the person unemployed is no
longer counted as unemployed.
Charlie Self
"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
On 12 Dec 2003 20:23:36 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
scribbled
>
>Unemployment, though, didn't drop in the new applications for unemployment. Not
>only didn't the expected drop show up, but the rise was considerable.
>
>I love unemployment stats: depending on the state, coverage stops at 26 or 39
>or some similar number of weeks, at which point the person unemployed is no
>longer counted as unemployed.
Actually, Charlie, the number of people on unemployment insurance
(pogey, David; dole Jeff) has nothing to do with the way unemployment
is counted in North America. This is a very common misconception.
Every month, your Bureau of Labour Statistics contacts about 60,000
Murrican households and asks a series of questions about each person.
(Actually the Bureau of the Census does the survey and the BLS does
the arithmetic). If someone worked at least one hour in the previous
week for pay or profit, or in a family business, they are counted as
employed. People off work because of sickness, maternity or vacation
are also counted as employed. They are counted as unemployed if they
were available to take a job and say either that actively looked for
work in the previous month or that they are on temporary layoff and
expect to be recalled. Just looking at want ads isn't good enough, by
"actively looking" the BLS means contacting employers or others with
potential leads to jobs. Everybody else is a NILF (Not in the Labour
Force).
For everything you always wanted to know about unemployment statistics
in the US but were afraid to ask:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm
For us Kanuckistanis, the process is very much the same, except that
Statistics Canada interviews about 54,000 households and looking at
want ads gets you counted as unemployed. This is one of the reasons
why unemployment rates are higher in Canada. For the nitty gritty:
http://www.statcan.ca/english/indepth/71-005/feature/lfhi1998002004s3a.htm
The issue of whether the official statistics undercount unemployment
has been hotly debated. My personal view is that they do. But the
unemployment rate is not a particularly useful figure, except for
political types to bash each other with.
Luigi
Who likes to think of himself as a number-crunching storyteller
Replace "no" with "yk" for real email address
OBWW: For some stats on wreckers and other woodworkers, see Howard
Ruttan's web site:
http://www.inthewoodshop.org/faq/results.shtml
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:23:36 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
> Unemployment, though, didn't drop in the new applications for unemployment. Not
> only didn't the expected drop show up, but the rise was considerable.
And yet, the number of people employed as reported by the BLS has risen by
over a million in the last two months. Maybe the labor pool is expanding
and the number of new employees relative to the number of new jobless
claims means the percentage of unemployeed has dropped.
-Doug
Doug Winterburn writes:
>> Unemployment, though, didn't drop in the new applications for unemployment.
>Not
>> only didn't the expected drop show up, but the rise was considerable.
>
>And yet, the number of people employed as reported by the BLS has risen by
>over a million in the last two months. Maybe the labor pool is expanding
>and the number of new employees relative to the number of new jobless
>claims means the percentage of unemployeed has dropped.
Maybe some of those who were dropped from the unemployed lists are getting
jobs, now. Maybe. I'll believe it when I see it.
My point is that the figures are manipulated continuously. This is not a
critique aimed at the Republicans because it is bipartisan, with the figures
getting twisted the same way in each administration.
Until the people attending the figures stop doing things like dropping people
from two lists when they are only finished with one, I'll have a hard time
believing the figures.
Besides, I was raised when 4% unemployment--essentially using the same
methods--was considered full employment. IIRC, today's figures are barely under
6%, yet all the hot shots are ecstatic about "full" employment. We almost might
want to take a look at the WalMartization of the employee. This converts the
low end of the pay scale from the 8 or so bucks an hour a Kroger grocery worker
might make, with benefits, to the $5.30 an hour, without benefits, the employee
gets at Walmart when Walmart runs Kroger out of town.
Charlie Self
"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:09:30 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
> Besides, I was raised when 4% unemployment--essentially using the same
> methods--was considered full employment. IIRC, today's figures are barely under
> 6%, yet all the hot shots are ecstatic about "full" employment. We almost might
> want to take a look at the WalMartization of the employee. This converts the
> low end of the pay scale from the 8 or so bucks an hour a Kroger grocery worker
> might make, with benefits, to the $5.30 an hour, without benefits, the employee
> gets at Walmart when Walmart runs Kroger out of town.
4% unemployment may have been considered full employment, but it sure
wasn't the norm during your or my working lifetime:
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt
-Doug
Doug Winterburn responds:
>
>4% unemployment may have been considered full employment, but it sure
>wasn't the norm during your or my working lifetime:
>
>ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt
It did get there, though, and no modern years go there. I started working in
1950, delivering telephone books (otherwise known as my father drove me around
with the backseat of the car full of phone books and a hand cart, which I got,
IIRC, 3 cents each for delivering...got an extra penny if I picked up the old
books, too). The next 3 years were well below 4%, then it bumped above. The
point being, it was up and down until some time in the late '50s, then dropped
back down in the mid-60s and hung in there for a few years.
It was, I think, an ideal that was aimed at, while today we aimed at 5.9%,
which is going to look pretty damned rosy to us in another 10-15 years.
It hasn't been that long since I heard a lot of yuppies in computers and
similar arenas sneering at kids who took jobs figuratively or literally
"flipping burgers." Shortly, if not already, a bunch of them would be happy to
get on at the local Burger King.
Charlie Self
"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:42:34 GMT, you wrote:
>
> >
> >From what I have been reading and seeing on the news, the current
> >administration isn't at all satisfied with 5.9% unemployment and is
> >attempting to reduce the unemployment rate. The facts are that the average
> >US unemployment rate in the last half of the 20th century was 5.7%
> the claim is made that productivity is up...
>
> take a factory with 10 people working, takes x hours of labor to
> produce a 'piece'
> get a new machine in there, that produces 5 times the number of
> 'pieces' per x hours, fire 8 guys that are no longer needed, and
> whats the bottom line REPORTED? productivity is up...cause 2
> people are now producing the new x per piece labor cost, which is
> down by 80% over what it was.
> they IGNORE the unemployed, especially after the long term
> unemployment is paid out.
>
Seems like the same kind of argument was made in pre-industrial
revolution England.
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:42:34 GMT, you wrote:
>
>From what I have been reading and seeing on the news, the current
>administration isn't at all satisfied with 5.9% unemployment and is
>attempting to reduce the unemployment rate. The facts are that the average
>US unemployment rate in the last half of the 20th century was 5.7%
the claim is made that productivity is up...
take a factory with 10 people working, takes x hours of labor to
produce a 'piece'
get a new machine in there, that produces 5 times the number of
'pieces' per x hours, fire 8 guys that are no longer needed, and
whats the bottom line REPORTED? productivity is up...cause 2
people are now producing the new x per piece labor cost, which is
down by 80% over what it was.
they IGNORE the unemployed, especially after the long term
unemployment is paid out.
--Shiva--
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:58:28 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
> It did get there, though, and no modern years go there. I started working in
> 1950, delivering telephone books (otherwise known as my father drove me around
> with the backseat of the car full of phone books and a hand cart, which I got,
> IIRC, 3 cents each for delivering...got an extra penny if I picked up the old
> books, too). The next 3 years were well below 4%, then it bumped above. The
> point being, it was up and down until some time in the late '50s, then dropped
> back down in the mid-60s and hung in there for a few years.
>
> It was, I think, an ideal that was aimed at, while today we aimed at 5.9%,
> which is going to look pretty damned rosy to us in another 10-15 years.
>
From what I have been reading and seeing on the news, the current
administration isn't at all satisfied with 5.9% unemployment and is
attempting to reduce the unemployment rate. The facts are that the average
US unemployment rate in the last half of the 20th century was 5.7%
> It hasn't been that long since I heard a lot of yuppies in
computers and
> similar arenas sneering at kids who took jobs figuratively or literally
> "flipping burgers." Shortly, if not already, a bunch of them would be
> happy to get on at the local Burger King.
The demographics don't bear that out. Minimum and below wage earners are
primarily young, unmarried and uneducated, and other than anecdotal
information, I wouldn't expect that to change:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2002.htm
Of course, there are always those who would like to blame someone else for
their situation rather than trying to improve that situation. It ain't
always easy, but it is always doable (this through experience which I know
you have an abundance).
-Doug
'Listen' to the *fine print*. Somewhere after the opening lines they usually
state in what specific areas/job groups the increases occurred. Usually it
is in the 'Service Industries'. Can you say, "Would you like fries with
that?"
Regards and Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{et tu Charlie}
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:23:36 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
>
>
> > Unemployment, though, didn't drop in the new applications for
unemployment. Not
> > only didn't the expected drop show up, but the rise was considerable.
>
> And yet, the number of people employed as reported by the BLS has risen by
> over a million in the last two months. Maybe the labor pool is expanding
> and the number of new employees relative to the number of new jobless
> claims means the percentage of unemployeed has dropped.
>
> -Doug
What most Americans have not noticed unless they are involved in
import/export or currencies, is that the US Dollar has lost a lot of its
value - over 20% compared to the Canadian Dollar and more against the Euro.
While much of the merchandise in the stores is imported or based on an
International price (such as OSB) your purchasing power has dropped.
Everything is going to cost more.
Yes, the law of supply and demand comes into play, but it is the
International Law of Supply and Demand. The massive costs of Iraq have
drained the US economy and lowered the purchasing power of the US Dollar.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> More likely due to my inability to get my point across without writing an
> epistle.
>
> I just can't believe what I perceive as a steady rise in prices in
everyday
> items, in some cases dramatic, and no one in the media or government is
even
> remarking upon the fact. I am not advocating that "they", or government,
do
> something about it, but it is strange to me that it is below a radar that
is
> more concerned with Pedersen, Jackson, and Paris Hilton's love life.
>
> OBWW - Is there not a fairly large increase in prices of Delta's big
ticket
> woodworking tools in the past year?
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 9/21/03
>
>
> "Stephen M" wrote in message
>
> >
> > It took a couple re-reads, but I with you.
> >
> > Yes, I agree
> >
> >
>
>
I've been watching the OSB prices with some interest, as we're getting
ready to start construction on a new house this spring. The reasons
I've heard for the price jump are:
1) Suppliers cut back production anticipating construction slowdown
that has not occured thanks to the low interest rates.
2) US Gov bought up a huge supply to help rebuild Iraq.
3) Georgia Pacific OSB mill burned down, further contributing to the
supply shortage.
I have no idea if these rumors are true, but they are being talked
up in many circles. If true it would indicate a "perfect storm"
leading to the high prices of late. Like all storms though, this one
should blow through given time.
Richard Johnson
Camano Island, WA
P.S. We're actually planning to use plywood on the roof and floor
decks, but may use OSB on the vertical surfaces. I live in an area
where rain is likely during the framing stage, and I'm nervous about
water sitting on the OSB. I haven't looked lately, but I'd assume if
OSB is sky-high, plywood has taken a price jump as well as builders
look for alternatives.
"Rob Stokes" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hmmm, steak is cheap up here (Canada) <g!>
>
> Ranchers are selling it to "hunters" for $0.25/lb on the hoof.....
>
> Rob
>
> --
Sorry, I couldn't resist. What with the economics major and all...
The commodity price for steaks has been going up for quite a while now
in the states. This has been largely due a combination of several
factors but mostly to the combination of the Mad Cow scare in Canada
(Shock to supply) and the "Low Carb" diet craze (Shock to demand).
Before these factors kicked in, the cattle ranchers were producing a
good supply of beef. Since these shocks, the ranchers haven't been
able to keep up. (I guess the cattle just aren't feeling in the mood)
We are only just starting to feel the beef price crunch because the
grocery chains have been sheltering us somewhat from this to keep up
demand. It gets worse... I have a friend who trades 13 month cattle
futures at the merc and it doesn't look like prices are dropping
anytime soon.
As for inflation...
Its tough to point to individual items as examples of inflation.
Please see the following link for an example on how inflation works:
http://stats.bls.gov/cpi/cpifact5.htm
Considering housing factors in 40%, we should see a trickle affect to
inflation if construction supplies continue to rise because of
siphoning to Iraq.
Ron Magen wrote:
> Who was it that said, "There are lies, Damn lies, and statistics."
Sam Clemens/ Mark Twain.
And I believe he stole it.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
My fault entirely, not yours ... it didn't quite come out as I intended.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"mel" wrote in message
>
> my apologies, I jumped to the conclusion you were attempting to undermine
my
> statement by taking an extremist view. A pet peeve of mine.
> --
> "If you are arrogant, who's going to care if you're the best?"
>
>
The question is more likely: "What the hell happened to government/media
reporting on inflation?". Notice the price of steak, paper goods, and just
about anything else these days. A woodworking magazine on the newsstand will
blow the hell out of a ten dollar bill, while a fraction of a percentage
point rise in employment will have the government spokesman and talking
heads edging out Scot and Michael.
Odds are the OSB went to Iraq ... so you have to pay more.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"rllipham" wrote in message
> I put OSB from HD in my shop about 2 years ago. I paid less than $5
> per sheet out the door. I went ot buy one sheet and it was almost $18
> after taxes. Other wood prices have not tripled. Any ideas.
>
> BTW the OSB is still at HD. I could not see paying that much.
More likely due to my inability to get my point across without writing an
epistle.
I just can't believe what I perceive as a steady rise in prices in everyday
items, in some cases dramatic, and no one in the media or government is even
remarking upon the fact. I am not advocating that "they", or government, do
something about it, but it is strange to me that it is below a radar that is
more concerned with Pedersen, Jackson, and Paris Hilton's love life.
OBWW - Is there not a fairly large increase in prices of Delta's big ticket
woodworking tools in the past year?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Stephen M" wrote in message
>
> It took a couple re-reads, but I with you.
>
> Yes, I agree
>
>
Swingman writes:
>
>I just can't believe what I perceive as a steady rise in prices in everyday
>items, in some cases dramatic, and no one in the media or government is even
>remarking upon the fact. I am not advocating that "they", or government, do
>something about it, but it is strange to me that it is below a radar that is
>more concerned with Pedersen, Jackson, and Paris Hilton's love life.
>
>OBWW - Is there not a fairly large increase in prices of Delta's big ticket
>woodworking tools in the past year?
Some of the following may be my reading habits, which tend strongly away from
economics and finance. Until a week or so ago, I'd never seen a mention about
the pace of inflation in earlier eras...then someone, somewhere popped a short
article on inflation being almost unknown before 1940 or so.
Amazing, these modern inventions.
Charlie Self
"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Some of the following may be my reading habits, which tend strongly
> away from economics and finance. Until a week or so ago, I'd never
> seen a mention about the pace of inflation in earlier eras...then
> someone, somewhere popped a short article on inflation being almost
> unknown before 1940 or so.
>
> Amazing, these modern inventions.
>
Not all that modern -- Europe suffered from serious inflation in the 17th
century:
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/migrations/three4d.html
Murray Peterson writes:
>>
>> Amazing, these modern inventions.
>>
>
>Not all that modern -- Europe suffered from serious inflation in the 17th
>century:
What the hell. We're always asking for recycling. It would be nice if today's
inflation slowed down for a similar period of time.
Charlie Self
"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Murray Peterson writes:
>
>>>
>>> Amazing, these modern inventions.
>>>
>>
>>Not all that modern -- Europe suffered from serious inflation in the
>>17th century:
>
> What the hell. We're always asking for recycling. It would be nice if
> today's inflation slowed down for a similar period of time.
Europe (or the world) hasn't been inflation free for all that
time. Inflation is just the result of too much money chasing after too few
goods/services, and one historical cause of too much money is a war.
During a war, a government spends far more money than the economy can
support, with the resulting inflation in prices.
In terms of an individual commodity, there can be many reasons why its
prices have skyrocketed. In the case of OSB, perhaps the US tariff on
imported Canadian softwood is partly responsible?
On 12-Dec-2003, [email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote:
> then someone, somewhere popped a short
> article on inflation being almost unknown before 1940 or so.
Said article must have been written by someone with absolutely
no knowledge of economic history.
Mike
Swingman wrote:
> Good post ...but:
>
> In a model capitalistic society, maybe .. but tell that to the drug
> companies, where the cost of the most popular new drugs are amazingly within
> a few cents of each other, regardless of manufacturer. AND, as you
> mentioned, add the cost of government regulation into the equation. Suddenly
> your statement below is not as black and white as you would like.
OTOH when was the last time you needed OSB to keep your blood pressure
under control, to fight an infection, or to keep your head in one piece?
When was the last time a piece of OSB made you go into convulsions or
made your stool runny?
I think you may be comparing different things.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
What happened to this post? Could it have anything to do with the Trade
issues with Canada and their soft wood lumber products? With less product
going out the border here it sure has affected prices.
John
"rllipham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I put OSB from HD in my shop about 2 years ago. I paid less than $5
> per sheet out the door. I went ot buy one sheet and it was almost $18
> after taxes. Other wood prices have not tripled. Any ideas.
>
> BTW the OSB is still at HD. I could not see paying that much.
Good post ...but:
In a model capitalistic society, maybe .. but tell that to the drug
companies, where the cost of the most popular new drugs are amazingly within
a few cents of each other, regardless of manufacturer. AND, as you
mentioned, add the cost of government regulation into the equation. Suddenly
your statement below is not as black and white as you would like.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"mel" wrote in message
> Inflation is ultimately
> controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:54:24 -0600, Swingman wrote:
> The question is more likely: "What the hell happened to government/media
> reporting on inflation?". Notice the price of steak, paper goods, and just
> about anything else these days. A woodworking magazine on the newsstand will
> blow the hell out of a ten dollar bill, while a fraction of a percentage
> point rise in employment will have the government spokesman and talking
> heads edging out Scot and Michael.
>
> Odds are the OSB went to Iraq ... so you have to pay more.
I too have been told by my local builders that a lot has been shipped to
Iraq, dropping supplies here and driving up cost to over $20 a sheet - from
a previous price of about $8. They are now putting in foundations for spec
houses and stopping there and waiting until prices drop.
Shawn
No doubt, medical costs have grown at rediculous rates... But that is a bit
of a bad example because the medical industry is not a capitalist system.
Normally, in a capitalist system, when demand goes up, price goes up, until
demand is curbed by the price.
In the medical "economy" the people demanding the product (Sick people), are
not the same people as the ones paying for the product (insurance companies,
for the most part).
<rant-on>
Throw in a dose of "no expense incurred by the insurance company/goverment
is too high to keep my dying loved one, with no quality of life alive to xxx
more days" and it gets worse.
Doing a cost-to-benefit analysis of health care procedures and drawing some
very unpopular lines in the sand is the only thing that will stop spiraling
health costs.
<rant-off>
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Good post ...but:
>
> In a model capitalistic society, maybe .. but tell that to the drug
> companies, where the cost of the most popular new drugs are amazingly
within
> a few cents of each other, regardless of manufacturer. AND, as you
> mentioned, add the cost of government regulation into the equation.
Suddenly
> your statement below is not as black and white as you would like.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 9/21/03
>
> "mel" wrote in message
>
> > Inflation is ultimately
> > controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
>
>
> > >
> > > > Inflation is ultimately
> > > > controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
>
> > No doubt, medical costs have grown at rediculous rates... But that is a
> bit
> > of a bad example because the medical industry is not a capitalist
system.
>
> If you go back and read what I said, you will see that was the precisley
my
> point ... you just further reinforced my taking exception to the statement
> "Inflation is ultimately controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT."
It took a couple re-reads, but I with you.
Yes, I agree
Eric Tonks wrote:
> Yes, the law of supply and demand comes into play, but it is the
> International Law of Supply and Demand. The massive costs of Iraq have
> drained the US economy and lowered the purchasing power of the US Dollar.
But does ant of this really matter as Haliburton is doing well.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:38:28 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hope it didn't run out on the floor right there! ;>)
No, it was contained by my FTLs...
The verbal spewage, however, was another matter...
P.S. - Thanks again for the morticing bits...
I have used them enough for the crappy Chinese Delta DP350 drill press
to chunk a pulley... ugghhh...
Greg
Stephen M wrote:
> Doing a cost-to-benefit analysis of health care procedures and drawing
> some very unpopular lines in the sand is the only thing that will stop
> spiraling health costs.
What the hell, make'em into Soylent Green.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
LOL ... You're welcome, Greg. I am glad you could use them.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
<Greg G.> wrote in message
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:38:28 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:
>
> >Hope it didn't run out on the floor right there! ;>)
>
> No, it was contained by my FTLs...
> The verbal spewage, however, was another matter...
>
> P.S. - Thanks again for the morticing bits...
> I have used them enough for the crappy Chinese Delta DP350 drill press
> to chunk a pulley... ugghhh...
>
> Greg
>
"Stephen M" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Good post ...but:
> >
> > In a model capitalistic society, maybe .. but tell that to the drug
> > companies, where the cost of the most popular new drugs are amazingly
> within
> > a few cents of each other, regardless of manufacturer. AND, as you
> > mentioned, add the cost of government regulation into the equation.
> Suddenly
> > your statement below is not as black and white as you would like.
> >
> > --
> > www.e-woodshop.net
> > Last update: 9/21/03
> >
> > "mel" wrote in message
> >
> > > Inflation is ultimately
> > > controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
> No doubt, medical costs have grown at rediculous rates... But that is a
bit
> of a bad example because the medical industry is not a capitalist system.
If you go back and read what I said, you will see that was the precisley my
point ... you just further reinforced my taking exception to the statement
"Inflation is ultimately controlled by the consumer...NOT THE GOVERNMENT."
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
Eric Tonks wrote:
> What most Americans have not noticed unless they are involved in
> import/export or currencies, is that the US Dollar has lost a lot of its
> value - over 20% compared to the Canadian Dollar and more against the
> Euro.
I do, because I listen to the BBC World Service almost every night. It's
been dropping like a stone. What, those ridiculous looking ? flummies are
worth more than $1.20 I think. I can't remember what it's gotten up to.
$1.27? $1.30?
I did a silly little thing with a friend in Finland a few years ago. I
bought 10 ? for $10, then threw in a $2 bill for the hell of it, so he
would have what might be the only US $2 bill in Finland. $12 for 10 ?...
I figured I was getting screwed.
I never imagined I would break even, let alone profit. Hell, this stuff
looks like Monopoly money.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:41:28 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:
>When was the last time a piece of OSB made you go into convulsions or
>made your stool runny?
Two days ago when I went to the local Lowes to pick up 5 sheets of
roof sheathing... Wow! $17.00 a sheet!
Greg
Nope ... I made no comparison between the subject "higher prices" and
anything else...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Mark" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
>
> > Good post ...but:
> >
> > In a model capitalistic society, maybe .. but tell that to the drug
> > companies, where the cost of the most popular new drugs are amazingly
within
> > a few cents of each other, regardless of manufacturer. AND, as you
> > mentioned, add the cost of government regulation into the equation.
Suddenly
> > your statement below is not as black and white as you would like.
> I think you may be comparing different things.
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:08:11 GMT, [email protected] (Renata)
wrote:
>Meanwhile, steak (yowser!), insurance, and all kinds of sundries keep
>going up, up, up. But, hey, unemployment dropped point one percent
>and folks are now saying our resurgent economy is gonna reassure a GOP
>re-election. Yea!
>
>Ah, statistics...
>
>Renata
And damned outright lies...
Greg
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 01:09:55 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
scribbled
>
>
>Ron Magen wrote:
>
>> Who was it that said, "There are lies, Damn lies, and statistics."
>
>
>
>Sam Clemens/ Mark Twain.
>
>And I believe he stole it.
Ackshally, he didn't, he attributed it to Disraeli. See my previous
post on this:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fff5bvkb4og9g6htddv1d9hqit16c9ivt1%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" for real email address
"rllipham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I put OSB from HD in my shop about 2 years ago. I paid less than $5
> per sheet out the door. I went ot buy one sheet and it was almost $18
> after taxes. Other wood prices have not tripled. Any ideas.
>
> BTW the OSB is still at HD. I could not see paying that much.
I ran into a similiar problem on a remodel. The client wanted osb behind
the sheetrock so he would have meat to screw displays to. Thinking osb
would be a good buy, I (without checking prices) quoted him a price based on
$7/sheet. Imagine my horror when I actually went to pick the osb up at the
lumber yard - $26/sheet. CDX was $28/sheet! I quickly decided another
approach would be taken. I calmly asked the attendant how much their
cheapest 1/2" plywood was. They told me that shop grade was running a cool
$13/sheet. I needed only 5 sheets so I bit the bullet. When I went back to
load it up, the first 20 something sheets were an AC reject for shop price.
I loaded it all plus the 5 sheets of actuall shop grade and kindly payed
the attendent. So it's somewhat of a gloat I guess. Sorry for the long
story.
SH