Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
and the bit is false security.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>
> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
Okay, that was something I'm glad you shared.
Am I correct to calculate that the upcut spiral creates a force that is
trying to pull the bit out, and a non-spiral or a downcut would lessen
the chances of that happening but not remove it completely?
I think the mantra "what would happen if the wood dissapeared" is a
good one to have running through your head whenever pushing wood
through a power tool.
J. Clarke wrote:
> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>
> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
>
> This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
> lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
> sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
> fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
>
> If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
> right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
> and the bit is false security.
Yes I would expect surprises from spiral cutters, more on that:
At no.12 http://patwarner.com/faq.html
****************************
J. Clarke wrote:
> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>
> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
>
> This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
> lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
> sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
> fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
>
> If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
> right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
> and the bit is false security.
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I think the mantra "what would happen if the wood dissapeared" is a
> good one to have running through your head whenever pushing wood
> through a power tool.
In my mind, jointers and shapers are the scariest of the bunch.
When the wood disapperas in a jointing operation, you'd be in the thing
up to your elbow.
A gruesome tool, that.
I would never use a shaper without a power-feeder.
For some (false) reason, I don't seem to be too intimidated by 3" bits
in routers.
Indeed diameter specs are all over the map; independent of supplier. I
would mike all diameter dependent cutters before use.
And solid carbide is a hell of a lot stiffer than steel. Given the
correct measured diameter, with a slot width greater than the tool,
Blame: Fixturing, technique and cutter deflection for the wide cut.
Solid carbide deflects too , especially when the flute length is > 3 x
the diameter.
There is a lot more to the story but that should get you thinking, PW
********************
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2007 08:36:35 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Yes I would expect surprises from spiral cutters, more on that:
> >At no.12 http://patwarner.com/faq.html
>
> Reading your faq leads me to a question. First thing I cut using my
> Incra jig many years ago was a box joint. Used a Freud straight bit
> and the joint ended up not just loose but sloppy loose. I diddled
> everything I could think of to get it tight and finally decided that
> the bit was oversized. Went down to Coastal and they were out of
> straight bits that size but had an Amana spiral. Tried that and the
> cut was dead on. I've been using them for box joints ever since (and
> since they're paid for quite a lot else).
>
> Now, my question--all the straight bits I have seem to cut oversize,
> the spirals don't. Is this an artifact of the different cutter
> geometry or does Freud just make their bits oversized and Amana
> maintain tighter tolerances?
>
> I suppose I could just get some Amana straight bits to compare with
> the spirals but the original Freuds are still in good shape.
>
> >****************************
> >J. Clarke wrote:
> >> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
> >> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
> >> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
> >>
> >> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
> >> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
> >> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
> >> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
> >> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
> >>
> >> This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
> >> lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
> >> sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
> >> fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
> >>
> >> If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
> >> right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
> >> and the bit is false security.
> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
The bit came through 1/2" stock during the a 3/16" dado and you never felt
or heard a difference as the bit was rising ??
This has happened to me before, but I can usually feel/hear the difference
as the router starts working harder.
Glad you are ok.
Swingman wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote in message
>
>> I suspect that the reason it rose was that it was an upcut
>> spiral--your analysis of the forces is correct. Still, having seen it
>> once, I'd not want to take a chance with _any_ bit.
>
> Not necessarily the upcut spiral.
>
> I had the same thing happen to me with my table mounted 7518 a few years
> back using a straight dado bit. I've always used pads when table routing,
> but I now also make damn sure that I crank down _hard_ on the collets of the
> 7518, no matter the bit, and keep them very clean.
>
> IIRC, there was a similar thread here about that same time (03) of this
> happening to others with the 7518, so while not common, it does happen.
>
A funny thing about working habits - once they're there,
they're........there.
I injured myself on the table saw last year, and ever since I've been a
lot more careful around all my tools, powered and otherwise. I'd read a
lot on this forum about asking "What can go wrong here?" and had never
really ingrained it into my work habits until the accident. Now it's
unconscious and I'm not always aware of it. In reading this thread and
others about near hits, I've thought about my habits in the shop and I'm
a lot happier knowing that something in the back of my head is doing
just a bit of analysis before each cut, each rout, and each time I aim a
chisel point.
Some guys get that immediately as soon as they start working in a
hazardous environment. Others, like me, have to get graphic
illustrations of how bad it can be. In my case, since the injury was
minor, I'm glad it worked out that way and grateful it wasn't losing a
limb or worse before those habits became part of me. I hope that
unconscious analysis never leaves me.
Tanus
--
This is not really a sig.
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:43:17 -0500, "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
>> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
>> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>
>The bit came through 1/2" stock during the a 3/16" dado and you never felt
>or heard a difference as the bit was rising ??
>
>This has happened to me before, but I can usually feel/hear the difference
>as the router starts working harder.
No more than the usual variation I get from one piece of wood to the
other.
>Glad you are ok.
Me too. Thanks.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Am I correct to calculate that the upcut spiral creates a force that is
> > trying to pull the bit out, and a non-spiral or a downcut would lessen
> > the chances of that happening but not remove it completely?
> >
>
> On paper yes. In real life no. Craftsman routers have had a problem with
> ruined projects because the bit crept up with no bit in particular.
>
>
Quite true. A study of the forces acting on a router bit would show that any
bit would tend to come out of the collet. A spiral would have a bit more
chance of doing so though. Despite a certain router guys advice, I use
spiral bits whenever possible. I have never had one come loose. I only use
end mills though, not what is sold for routers. Their tighter tolerances on
shank diameter mite have something to do with it.
"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> OMG! I hate when routers do that. This is not sarcasm, I really hate
> when bits slip in the collet. Not just 'cause of ruining the part,
> but 'cause of the potential of harming some of my favorite body parts.
Why do you have your router mounted so low?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>
> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
>
> This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
> lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
> sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
> fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
>
> If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
> right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
> and the bit is false security.
>
I wouldn't have believed that could happen! I had a collet on a Sears
router (which I promptly ebayed) ruin a piece by creeping up a eight inch,
but I thought PC was better than that.
But, since putting my finger into a bandsaw blade a couple months ago
(nearly healed, optimistic it will be 100% in a month or two) I make sure I
DO NOT run my finger over the router bit, the jointer knives, etc.
I got away with it once; twice is too much to ask for. So did you.
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:06:57 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> OMG! I hate when routers do that. This is not sarcasm, I really hate
>> when bits slip in the collet. Not just 'cause of ruining the part,
>> but 'cause of the potential of harming some of my favorite body parts.
>
>Why do you have your router mounted so low?
Hanging under the router table? Where else would it be?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Am I correct to calculate that the upcut spiral creates a force that is
> trying to pull the bit out, and a non-spiral or a downcut would lessen
> the chances of that happening but not remove it completely?
>
On paper yes. In real life no. Craftsman routers have had a problem with
ruined projects because the bit crept up with no bit in particular.
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:49:13 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> Am I correct to calculate that the upcut spiral creates a force that is
>> trying to pull the bit out, and a non-spiral or a downcut would lessen
>> the chances of that happening but not remove it completely?
>>
>
>On paper yes. In real life no. Craftsman routers have had a problem with
>ruined projects because the bit crept up with no bit in particular.
While cleaning the collets today (of course the .50 cal jag doesn't
fit my cleaning rod, but the bore brush from the same company does,
while the .25 cal jag has a nice point on the end that fits exactly
into a new hole in the palm of my hand) I think I discovered a
contributing factor--the Porter-Cable collets seem to be machined so
that the service that gets wedged into the shaft bore is at the bottom
(the end farthest from the tip of the bit) and the bits I was using,
when the flute is fully exposed, don't quite seat that far, so
possibly the collet was applying a little bit of wedging force of its
own trying to push the bit out. In the future I'm going to have to
make it a point to check this.
Incidentally there was quite a lot of crud in both collets--took
several patches before they were coming out clean.
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 12:35:32 GMT, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Good thing it wasn't from Sears, or all the "Crapsman" phrases would crop up
>about spontaneous depth adjustment.
Just 'cause you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it's not true.
BTW, it happens that the *last* handheld Craftsman tool I own is the
infamous self adjusting router. I've got a 1/2 dovetail bit in it
setup for 1/2 blind dovetails in drawers.
>
>Betting that a little bit of computation - almost said slide rule work -
>would show that unless you're grossly overfeeding, the climb force of the
>spiral would be insufficient to overcome the clutch of the collet. Fault
>lies not with the bit, but elsewhere. Just a couple chips in the would do
>it, or bottoming the bit with that bash. Never want to bottom a bit.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Reading your faq leads me to a question. First thing I cut using my
> Incra jig many years ago was a box joint. Used a Freud straight bit
> and the joint ended up not just loose but sloppy loose. I diddled
> everything I could think of to get it tight and finally decided that
> the bit was oversized. Went down to Coastal and they were out of
> straight bits that size but had an Amana spiral. Tried that and the
> cut was dead on. I've been using them for box joints ever since (and
> since they're paid for quite a lot else).
One of the reasons for using a box-joint jig like
http://us.oak-park.com/catalogue.html?list=boxj-- see the demo. Adjusts to
fit the bit in question, as does the Leigh dovetail jig.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 20 Jan 2007 08:36:35 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Yes I would expect surprises from spiral cutters, more on that:
>>At no.12 http://patwarner.com/faq.html
>
> Reading your faq leads me to a question. First thing I cut using my
> Incra jig many years ago was a box joint. Used a Freud straight bit
> and the joint ended up not just loose but sloppy loose. I diddled
> everything I could think of to get it tight and finally decided that
> the bit was oversized. Went down to Coastal and they were out of
> straight bits that size but had an Amana spiral. Tried that and the
> cut was dead on. I've been using them for box joints ever since (and
> since they're paid for quite a lot else).
>
> Now, my question--all the straight bits I have seem to cut oversize,
> the spirals don't. Is this an artifact of the different cutter
> geometry or does Freud just make their bits oversized and Amana
> maintain tighter tolerances?
>
I have a MCLS spiral I bought for box corners that is undersized; when I
complained they said they were all unsized, but within spec. I have never
measured it, but I think my Freud straight is correct. My craftsman
straight IS correct; I have measured it.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I think the mantra "what would happen if the wood dissapeared" is a
> good one to have running through your head whenever pushing wood
> through a power tool.
>
Good thing it wasn't from Sears, or all the "Crapsman" phrases would crop up
about spontaneous depth adjustment.
Betting that a little bit of computation - almost said slide rule work -
would show that unless you're grossly overfeeding, the climb force of the
spiral would be insufficient to overcome the clutch of the collet. Fault
lies not with the bit, but elsewhere. Just a couple chips in the would do
it, or bottoming the bit with that bash. Never want to bottom a bit.
On 19 Jan 2007 19:27:33 -0800, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>J. Clarke wrote:
>> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
>> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
>> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>>
>> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
>> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
>> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
>> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
>> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
>
>Okay, that was something I'm glad you shared.
>
>Am I correct to calculate that the upcut spiral creates a force that is
>trying to pull the bit out, and a non-spiral or a downcut would lessen
>the chances of that happening but not remove it completely?
I suspect that the reason it rose was that it was an upcut
spiral--your analysis of the forces is correct. Still, having seen it
once, I'd not want to take a chance with _any_ bit.
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:41:14 -0500, J. Clarke <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
>upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
>is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>
>All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
>I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
>through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
>end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
>continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
>
>This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
>lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
>sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
>fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
>
>If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
>right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
>and the bit is false security.
>
OMG! I hate when routers do that. This is not sarcasm, I really hate
when bits slip in the collet. Not just 'cause of ruining the part,
but 'cause of the potential of harming some of my favorite body parts.
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
> I suspect that the reason it rose was that it was an upcut
> spiral--your analysis of the forces is correct. Still, having seen it
> once, I'd not want to take a chance with _any_ bit.
Not necessarily the upcut spiral.
I had the same thing happen to me with my table mounted 7518 a few years
back using a straight dado bit. I've always used pads when table routing,
but I now also make damn sure that I crank down _hard_ on the collets of the
7518, no matter the bit, and keep them very clean.
IIRC, there was a similar thread here about that same time (03) of this
happening to others with the 7518, so while not common, it does happen.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/06/07
On 20 Jan 2007 08:36:35 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>Yes I would expect surprises from spiral cutters, more on that:
>At no.12 http://patwarner.com/faq.html
Reading your faq leads me to a question. First thing I cut using my
Incra jig many years ago was a box joint. Used a Freud straight bit
and the joint ended up not just loose but sloppy loose. I diddled
everything I could think of to get it tight and finally decided that
the bit was oversized. Went down to Coastal and they were out of
straight bits that size but had an Amana spiral. Tried that and the
cut was dead on. I've been using them for box joints ever since (and
since they're paid for quite a lot else).
Now, my question--all the straight bits I have seem to cut oversize,
the spirals don't. Is this an artifact of the different cutter
geometry or does Freud just make their bits oversized and Amana
maintain tighter tolerances?
I suppose I could just get some Amana straight bits to compare with
the spirals but the original Freuds are still in good shape.
>****************************
>J. Clarke wrote:
>> Was cutting a 3/16" wide dado in a piece of Lyptus using an Amana
>> upcut spiral bit. Was cutting 3/16 deep in half inch stock. Router
>> is a Porter-Cable 7518 in a lift.
>>
>> All was going well, when, after cutting four pieces, on the fifth one
>> I'm about three inches along and all of a sudden the bit comes right
>> through the top--it's still cutting just decided to pull out of the
>> end of the collet. So I put it back, socked it down hard, and
>> continued the cut and three inches along it did it _again_.
>>
>> This time I pulled the bit and the collet and cleaned both with
>> lacquer thinner and got a lot of black crud off both, but I'm pretty
>> sure I didn't get it all out of the collet. Whether the problem is
>> fixed I don't know--I only had two short cuts after that.
>>
>> If I had been holding the piece above the bit then it would have gone
>> right through my fingers. The notion that there's wood between you
>> and the bit is false security.