OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
who might have the answer.
Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
China? ;)
The last time I checked, China was in the Northern Hemisphere therefore the
water swirls in the same direction as in North America (USA). The coriolis
effect goe in the other direction in the Southern Hemishphere.
Roger
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c9603ca3-c0b8-4bee-b02a-af0ae9e8e2c6@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
>
On Nov 18, 12:30 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 18, 5:07 am, "Phil-In-Mich." <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > A long time ago during the Greek civilization (500BC??) this guy invents a
> > bilge pump for ships at sea. .......
> >..............they had an ancient drawing of the
> > bilge pump showing the 'righty-tighty' (as in tidy clean up, or ship-shape)
> > turning of the cylindar wedged shaped bilge pump.
>
> the ancient Greeks tidied up their ships in English?
Of course they did. You expected maybe Yiddish? Certainly not Greek.
On Nov 18, 5:07 am, "Phil-In-Mich." <[email protected]>
wrote:
> A long time ago during the Greek civilization (500BC??) this guy invents a
> bilge pump for ships at sea. .......
>..............they had an ancient drawing of the
> bilge pump showing the 'righty-tighty' (as in tidy clean up, or ship-shape)
> turning of the cylindar wedged shaped bilge pump.
the ancient Greeks tidied up their ships in English?
Hoosierpopi wrote:
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner?
My guess is that most people are right-handed, and it is easier to twist
your right hand clockwise than counterclockwise. (At least for me it is.)
That said, there are cases where the design calls for "opposite" threads
to keep things from becoming unscrewed through normal use. Left-side
bicycle pedals screw onto the cranks lefty-tighty, for instance.
Chris
From a triple digit channel on cable TV, there was this program:
A long time ago during the Greek civilization (500BC??) this guy invents a
bilge pump for ships at sea. (you know, the ships that has all them slaves
pulling on oar's.) It is a one man crank type of thing that looked like a
screw set inside a hollow wood tube (auger.) The edges of the inner screw
shaft was water tight against the outer tube. The bottom tip was at the
bottom of the ship and as the sailor (slave?) turned the crank the water was
lifted up and out of the many ship. This was the first cylindar wedge.
Later, the ship board propellor, and aircraft propellor would take on the
same shape as a section of the cylindar wedge. Telephone pole post hole
diggers (augers) use the same shape and rotation today.
Archimedes Screw pump:
http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/archimed.htm
graphic on right hand side midway down.
Looking at the model they built for the TV show crosswise, and you see the
shape of a screw (auger.) The acient version of this was also turned in a
right hand clock wise manner. IIRC, they had an ancient drawing of the
bilge pump showing the 'righty-tighty' (as in tidy clean up, or ship-shape)
turning of the cylindar wedged shaped bilge pump.
Related to today's screw threading? Your guess as good as mine. But the
treading of a screw does go back to before Roman Empire time. The problem
is, there is only a small handful still here this NG that remember so long
ago.
Phil
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c9603ca3-c0b8-4bee-b02a-af0ae9e8e2c6@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
>
In article <c9603ca3-c0b8-4bee-b02a-af0ae9e8e2c6@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
>But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
>who might have the answer.
>
>Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
>and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
>But why?
I went to the official source for such things, and asked Tevye.
The answer is, in his own words (with a slight Russian accent): Tradition!
Hoosierpopi took a can of maroon spray paint on November 18, 2007 12:48 am
and wrote the following:
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
Lefty Tighty, Righty Loosey just sounds stupid.
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
"EXT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hoosierpopi wrote:
>>
>
> in time. Probably because many people didn't know about them and spent
> hours tightening left handed nuts trying to get them off, eventually
> shearing the studs off.
>
>Same for Studebaker. Been there done that! 8>]]
On Nov 18, 12:48 am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
actually...Chinese toilets don't flush in the opposite
direction....not even in Australia.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hoosierpopi wrote:
>
>> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
>> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>>
>> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
>> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
>> this manner?
>
> My guess is that most people are right-handed, and it is easier to twist
> your right hand clockwise than counterclockwise. (At least for me it is.)
>
> That said, there are cases where the design calls for "opposite" threads
> to keep things from becoming unscrewed through normal use. Left-side
> bicycle pedals screw onto the cranks lefty-tighty, for instance.
>
> Chris
Up until some time in the 1960s, all Chrysler cars had right handed wheel
nuts on one side of the car, and left wheel handed nuts on the other side, I
don't know why. They did change to all right handed wheel nuts at some point
in time. Probably because many people didn't know about them and spent hours
tightening left handed nuts trying to get them off, eventually shearing the
studs off.
Tanus <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> EXT wrote:
>> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Up until some time in the 1960s, all Chrysler cars had right handed
>> wheel nuts on one side of the car, and left wheel handed nuts on the
>> other side, I don't know why. They did change to all right handed
>> wheel nuts at some point in time. Probably because many people didn't
>> know about them and spent hours tightening left handed nuts trying to
>> get them off, eventually shearing the studs off.
>>
>>
>
> I was one of them. 17 and full of piss
> 'n vinegar with Daddy's car out in a
> snow storm. Hit a curb too fast and pfft
> goes the tire. Spent nearly all damned
> night tightening the lugs on that flat.
> Didn't have enough strength to shear the
> nuts off, but sure made it tough to
> finally get them started when someone
> suggested going the other way.
>
> Bought daddy a new lug wrench the next
> day. The old one was...um..bent.
>
I wonder if that's the reason for the advice "If you can't get the nut to
loosen, try tightening it and then try again." ;-)
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Hoosierpopi wrote:
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
>
Try ths:
http://tinyurl.com/23hp7f
On Nov 18, 8:16 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mekon wrote:
> > Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
> >> The last time I checked, China was in the Northern Hemisphere
> >> therefore the water swirls in the same direction as in North
> >> America
> >> (USA). The coriolis effect goe in the other direction in the
> >> Southern Hemishphere.
> >> Roger
>
> > (snip)
>
> > Wiki disagrees and proposes that the Coriolis effect is too small to
> > make any difference to swirling of water in a toilet.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
>
> So what? Wiki is mainly useful to get a quick overview of something
> about which you know absolutely nothing. It is not an authoritative
> source for much of anything except maybe wiki itself. There's a
> reason that many colleges and high schools do not accept wiki as a
> reference on term papers.
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
A colleague of mine actually tested this by watching water swirl down
drains in the northern hemisphere, near the equator, and the southern
hemisphere during various travels over a year or so. The results:
1. Swirl direction is highly sensitive to initial motion of the
water. If the water has any spin or motion before pulling the plug, it
will continue to swirl in that direction. To counter this effect, he
would fill the sink at night and not pull the plug until the next
morning.
2. IIRC, his results were not 100% but more like 80%, water in the NH
would swirl down the drain with an opposite sense than in the SH
(can't remember which one was CC and which was CCW).
So based on his observations, the effect is weak, but it is there.
Kevin
On Nov 18, 8:16 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote: >
Mekon wrote: > > Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
". The coriolis effect goes in the other direction in the Southern
Hemisphere."
> >> Roger
>
> > (snip)
> > Wiki disagrees ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
>
> So what? Wiki is mainly useful to get a quick overview of something
Is it possible to detect the Earth's rotation in a draining sink?
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html
Yes, but it is very difficult. Because the Coriolis force is so
small, one must go to extraordinary lengths to detect it. But, it has
been done. You cannot use an ordinary sink for it lacks the requisite
circular symmetry: its oval shape and off-center drain render any
results suspect. Those who have succeeded used a smooth pan of about
one meter in diameter with a very small hole in the center. A stopper
(which could be removed from below so as to not introduce any spurious
motion) blocked the hole while the pan was being filled with water.
The water was then allowed to sit undisturbed for perhaps a week to
let all of the motion die out which was introduced during filling.
Then, the stopper was removed (from below). Because the hole was very
small, the pan drained slowly indeed. This was necessary, because it
takes hours before the tiny Coriolis force could develop sufficient
deviation in the draining water for it to produce a circular flow.
With these procedures, it was found that the rotation was always
cyclonic.
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/crls.rxml [University
of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign]
Yes WIKI is not necessarily "the authority,"but it does comport with
the other reliable sources in this instance, Moreover, given the
history of the effect and its original application, the "determined by
the force of the water entering the commode" approach makes sense.
Indee, why would the water in a vessel NOT ROTATE even absent an open
drain if this effect applied at the macro level?
But we digress from the question inspiring this dialog, no?
"EXT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Up until some time in the 1960s, all Chrysler cars had right handed wheel
> nuts on one side of the car, and left wheel handed nuts on the other side,
> I don't know why.
Like most all objects that spin and are held on by nuts or bolts they loosen
in the direction that the object being spun would normally spin.
It is unlikely that a nut or bolt will loosen if it has to spin faster than
the object in the same direction that the object normally spins. Hense, the
lug nuts on Chrysler vehicles had left hand threads on the wheels that were
on the right hand/passenger side of the car.
IF the cars used one nut on the center of the axel to hold the wheels on,
all cars would still have left hand nuts on the right side of the car.
"JKevorkian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Then all those garbonzos that put the bread-bag ties on backwards on
> Maier's
> bread are left handed, huh?
> Just one of life's little annoyances that crop up, especially before the
> morning
> caffeine kicks in... :)
Yep, the machines are left-handed.
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c9603ca3-c0b8-4bee-b02a-af0ae9e8e2c6@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
>
Becauuuuuuuuse, Righty Tighty Lefty Loosey was the official national
standard developed before the direction of the screw was decided upon.
Screw direction was anticipated as being a problem and therefore the "easy
to remember" safety reminder was created before the direction of the screw
was determined. I'm quite sure that the government was put in charge of
developing this standard and the tax burden on its citizens was enormous,
resulting in a debt that is still nagging us to this day. ;~)
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Back on topic, check out your right tilt tablesaw or RAS. Lefty tighty
> 'cause if it was righty tighty, the start up jolt might spin the arbor nut
> along with the blade off the arbor. It's not a problem on stopping since
> shutdown doesn't have the jolt. In my early RAS days, I'd turn blue in
> the face trying to get the arbor nut off - until I noticed the threads on
> the end of the arbor. That was when you did a lot of blade changing as
> HSS blades were about all that was available.
Got a left-tilt saw a few months ago. Seems absolutely unnatural to have a
right-hand thread on a tablesaw. The tilt I got used to right away, but
it'll be a lot of blade changings before I even start the wrench toward the
proper side.
My British cars had knock-off hubs back in the day, and they were
legitimately left and right thread.
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:32:04 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
>On Nov 17, 10:48 pm, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>>
>> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
>> who might have the answer.
>>
>> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
>> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>>
>> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
>> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
>> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
>> China? ;)
>
>
>
>clockwise is the direction that a right handed person has the most
>twisting strength. beyond that, it's kind of one of those traditional
>things whose origins are lost in time.
Then all those garbonzos that put the bread-bag ties on backwards on Maier's
bread are left handed, huh?
Just one of life's little annoyances that crop up, especially before the morning
caffeine kicks in... :)
On Nov 17, 10:48 pm, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
clockwise is the direction that a right handed person has the most
twisting strength. beyond that, it's kind of one of those traditional
things whose origins are lost in time.
In article <[email protected]>, "EXT" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Up until some time in the 1960s, all Chrysler cars had right handed wheel
>nuts on one side of the car, and left wheel handed nuts on the other side,
Mid-1970s, actually, IIRC -- my first car was a '68 Dodge Dart with left-hand
thread lug nuts on the left side. My brother had a '72 Charger that I'm pretty
sure was the same way. But my '85 D150 truck has right-hand threads all the
way around.
>I don't know why.
Because the rotational force applied to the nuts by the rotation of the wheels
as the car is driven is counterclockwise on the left wheels, and clockwise on
the right wheels. Hence, the lugs had left-hand threads on the left side,
right-hand threads on the right side.
It took Chrysler quite some time to realize what GM, Ford, and everyone else
apparently knew all along: that the magnitude of this force is small enough
that just making the lug nuts a little bit tighter is a far simpler solution
to a nearly-nonexistent problem.
>They did change to all right handed wheel nuts at some point
>in time. Probably because many people didn't know about them and spent hours
>tightening left handed nuts trying to get them off, eventually shearing the
>studs off.
Well, it *was* documented in the owner's manual. Not the manufacturer's fault
if the buyer doesn't read it...
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Mekon wrote:
> Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
>> The last time I checked, China was in the Northern Hemisphere
>> therefore the water swirls in the same direction as in North
>> America
>> (USA). The coriolis effect goe in the other direction in the
>> Southern Hemishphere.
>> Roger
>>
> (snip)
>
> Wiki disagrees and proposes that the Coriolis effect is too small to
> make any difference to swirling of water in a toilet.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
So what? Wiki is mainly useful to get a quick overview of something
about which you know absolutely nothing. It is not an authoritative
source for much of anything except maybe wiki itself. There's a
reason that many colleges and high schools do not accept wiki as a
reference on term papers.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Phil-In-Mich. wrote:
> From a triple digit channel on cable TV, there was this program:
>
> A long time ago during the Greek civilization (500BC??) this guy
> invents a bilge pump for ships at sea. (you know, the ships that
> has
> all them slaves pulling on oar's.) It is a one man crank type of
> thing that looked like a screw set inside a hollow wood tube
> (auger.)
> The edges of the inner screw shaft was water tight against the outer
> tube. The bottom tip was at the bottom of the ship and as the
> sailor
> (slave?) turned the crank the water was lifted up and out of the
> many
> ship. This was the first cylindar wedge. Later, the ship board
> propellor, and aircraft propellor would take on the same shape as a
> section of the cylindar wedge. Telephone pole post hole diggers
> (augers) use the same shape and rotation today.
>
> Archimedes Screw pump:
> http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/archimed.htm
> graphic on right hand side midway down.
>
> Looking at the model they built for the TV show crosswise, and you
> see the shape of a screw (auger.) The acient version of this was
> also turned in a right hand clock wise manner. IIRC, they had an
> ancient drawing of the bilge pump showing the 'righty-tighty' (as in
> tidy clean up, or ship-shape) turning of the cylindar wedged shaped
> bilge pump.
>
> Related to today's screw threading? Your guess as good as mine.
> But
> the treading of a screw does go back to before Roman Empire time.
> The problem is, there is only a small handful still here this NG
> that
> remember so long ago.
Never realized that Archimedes developed that pump originally as a
bilge pump. Clever fellows those old Greeks.
FWIW Greek and Roman warships did not use slaves for rowers--that
didn't come until the Middle Ages and the advent of gunpowder, which
changed tactics from "ram and board" to "standoff and shoot".
Merchant ships were not in general powered by oars at all.
>
> Phil
>
> "Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:c9603ca3-c0b8-4bee-b02a-af0ae9e8e2c6@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>>
>> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering
>> types"
>> who might have the answer.
>>
>> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and
>> nuts
>> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left,
>> loosens/unscrews/etc.
>>
>> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
>> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such
>> in this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh
>> opposite in China? ;)
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
LRod wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:16:04 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mekon wrote:
>>> Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
>>>> The last time I checked, China was in the Northern Hemisphere
>>>> therefore the water swirls in the same direction as in North
>>>> America
>>>> (USA). The coriolis effect goe in the other direction in the
>>>> Southern Hemishphere.
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>> Wiki disagrees and proposes that the Coriolis effect is too small
>>> to
>>> make any difference to swirling of water in a toilet.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
>>
>> So what? Wiki is mainly useful to get a quick overview of
>> something
>> about which you know absolutely nothing. It is not an
>> authoritative source for much of anything except maybe wiki itself.
>> There's a reason that many colleges and high schools do not accept
>> wiki as a reference on term papers.
>
> No kidding. That piece of crap operation has information which is
> only
> as good as the most recent edit. In 30 seconds it can be
> trashed--subtley or precipitously--rendering it utterly worthless.
> An
> "information resource" which is potentially worthless is
> essentially,
> practically worthless.
I wouldn't call it "utterly worthless". It's very handy for answering
questions like "Who is this Paris Hilton person that everybody is on
about" or "What in the H-E-double-toothpicks is a bunyip". Not the
basis for a scholarly paper, but tells enough to satisfy idle
curiosity and let me determine whether I want to delve deeper.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Hoosierpopi wrote:
> On Nov 18, 8:16 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote: >
> Mekon wrote: > > Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
> ". The coriolis effect goes in the other direction in the Southern
> Hemisphere."
>>>> Roger
>>
>>> (snip)
>> > Wiki disagrees ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
>>
>> So what? Wiki is mainly useful to get a quick overview of
>> something
>
> Is it possible to detect the Earth's rotation in a draining sink?
> http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html
>
> Yes, but it is very difficult. Because the Coriolis force is so
> small, one must go to extraordinary lengths to detect it. But, it
> has
> been done. You cannot use an ordinary sink for it lacks the
> requisite
> circular symmetry: its oval shape and off-center drain render any
> results suspect. Those who have succeeded used a smooth pan of about
> one meter in diameter with a very small hole in the center. A
> stopper
> (which could be removed from below so as to not introduce any
> spurious
> motion) blocked the hole while the pan was being filled with water.
> The water was then allowed to sit undisturbed for perhaps a week to
> let all of the motion die out which was introduced during filling.
> Then, the stopper was removed (from below). Because the hole was
> very
> small, the pan drained slowly indeed. This was necessary, because it
> takes hours before the tiny Coriolis force could develop sufficient
> deviation in the draining water for it to produce a circular flow.
> With these procedures, it was found that the rotation was always
> cyclonic.
That particular site goes on about how the force is "small" and how
that is because the Earth "rotates slowly". What I don't see there is
an estimate of the magnitude. While I don't have the time or
inclination to go back to my physics texts and work out the
calculation there's something bothersome about the notion that "it
takes hours before the tiny force could develop sufficient deviation".
Simple experiment--start the water in a sink swirling one
direction--watch it as it drains, see if it keeps going that
direction. Then try it the other way and see it it happens. If it
reverses then that knocks the notion that it's due to preexisting
rotation into a cocked hat.
> http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/crls.rxml
> [University
> of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign]
>
> Yes WIKI is not necessarily "the authority,"but it does comport with
> the other reliable sources in this instance, Moreover, given the
> history of the effect and its original application, the "determined
> by
> the force of the water entering the commode" approach makes sense.
> Indee, why would the water in a vessel NOT ROTATE even absent an
> open
> drain if this effect applied at the macro level?
Why would it not rotate? Because if the water in the vessel is not
moving then it's not subject to the Coriolis force. There seems to be
a major misconception about the nature of the Coriolis force inherent
in that statement.
> But we digress from the question inspiring this dialog, no?
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
EXT wrote:
> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hoosierpopi wrote:
>>
>>> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
>>> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>>>
>>> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
>>> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
>>> this manner?
>> My guess is that most people are right-handed, and it is easier to twist
>> your right hand clockwise than counterclockwise. (At least for me it is.)
>>
>> That said, there are cases where the design calls for "opposite" threads
>> to keep things from becoming unscrewed through normal use. Left-side
>> bicycle pedals screw onto the cranks lefty-tighty, for instance.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Up until some time in the 1960s, all Chrysler cars had right handed wheel
> nuts on one side of the car, and left wheel handed nuts on the other side, I
> don't know why. They did change to all right handed wheel nuts at some point
> in time. Probably because many people didn't know about them and spent hours
> tightening left handed nuts trying to get them off, eventually shearing the
> studs off.
>
>
I was one of them. 17 and full of piss
'n vinegar with Daddy's car out in a
snow storm. Hit a curb too fast and pfft
goes the tire. Spent nearly all damned
night tightening the lugs on that flat.
Didn't have enough strength to shear the
nuts off, but sure made it tough to
finally get them started when someone
suggested going the other way.
Bought daddy a new lug wrench the next
day. The old one was...um..bent.
--
Tanus
This is not really a sig.
http://users.compzone.ca/george/shop/
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hoosierpopi wrote:
>
>> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
>> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>>
>> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
>> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
>> this manner?
>
> My guess is that most people are right-handed, and it is easier to twist
> your right hand clockwise than counterclockwise. (At least for me it is.)
So it would be harder to loosen than to tighten. ;~)
Mekon,
I was impressed by the toilets in Oz (I know, I know...it dosent take
much<g>). I don't understand why we cant adapt some of your construction
stuff here in the US like the toilet design, having water drains in the
middle of the bathrooms and laundry rooms, and slate roofs. Makes a lot of
sense!
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
"Mekon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robatoy used his keyboard to write :
>> On Nov 18, 12:48 am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
>>> China? ;)
>>
>> actually...Chinese toilets don't flush in the opposite
>> direction....not even in Australia.
>
> They don't swirl at all here in Oz. Toilets on this end of the planet in
> the UK and at least some of the countries in Europe don't have as much
> standing water in them as I have seen in North America. The first time I
> went to a bathroom stall in the US, I saw the water level and I thought it
> was broken. Flushing is not done by a whirlpool effect but through the
> gravity feed of the water in the tank.
>
> Just part of the rich tapestry of life I suppose.
>
> Mekon
>
>
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c9603ca3-c0b8-4bee-b02a-af0ae9e8e2c6@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> OK, its not strictly a woodworking questio.
>
> But, from time to time I read comments form some "Engineering types"
> who might have the answer.
>
> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>
> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
> this manner? Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
> China? ;)
>
?Ton yhw
Had one of the Semitic nations perfected the screw, might be another matter.
Mekon,
You have switches on the power outlets because you pump 220 volts out of
them and that would give quite a jolt<g>...but i do remember trying
unsuccessfully to get my laptop to power up for a while until i realized
that the outlet switch was off.
We spent a month in Oz last November and had a great time...You have a
wonderful country...we visited Sydney, Perth ,Adalaide, Augusta[sp], toured
the Margaret and Borassa Valleys, drank a lot of wonderful wine! We will be
back!! We have some good friends in Perth.
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
"Mekon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Skip Williams submitted this idea :
>> Mekon,
>>
>> I was impressed by the toilets in Oz (I know, I know...it dosent take
>> much<g>). I don't understand why we cant adapt some of your construction
>> stuff here in the US like the toilet design, having water drains in the
>> middle of the bathrooms and laundry rooms, and slate roofs. Makes a lot
>> of sense!
>>
>> Skip
>> www.ShopFileR.com
>>
>> "Mekon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Robatoy used his keyboard to write :
>>>> On Nov 18, 12:48 am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
>>>>> China? ;)
>>>>
>>>> actually...Chinese toilets don't flush in the opposite
>>>> direction....not even in Australia.
>>>
>>> They don't swirl at all here in Oz. Toilets on this end of the planet in
>>> the UK and at least some of the countries in Europe don't have as much
>>> standing water in them as I have seen in North America. The first time
>>> I went to a bathroom stall in the US, I saw the water level and I
>>> thought it was broken. Flushing is not done by a whirlpool effect but
>>> through the gravity feed of the water in the tank.
>>>
>>> Just part of the rich tapestry of life I suppose.
>>>
>>> Mekon
>>>
>>>
>
> We also have switches on all of our power outlets too, which a few North
> Americans have found variously amusing/puzzling and impressive.
>
> Oh and if any of you folk from up over do happen to be in Brisbane, give
> me a hoy and I'll try to lay on a tour or two.
>
> Mekon
>
>
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:11:05 GMT, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Back on topic, check out your right tilt tablesaw or RAS. Lefty tighty
>> 'cause if it was righty tighty, the start up jolt might spin the arbor nut
>> along with the blade off the arbor. It's not a problem on stopping since
>> shutdown doesn't have the jolt. In my early RAS days, I'd turn blue in
>> the face trying to get the arbor nut off - until I noticed the threads on
>> the end of the arbor. That was when you did a lot of blade changing as
>> HSS blades were about all that was available.
>
>Got a left-tilt saw a few months ago. Seems absolutely unnatural to have a
>right-hand thread on a tablesaw. The tilt I got used to right away, but
>it'll be a lot of blade changings before I even start the wrench toward the
>proper side.
How hard is it to pull the wrench toward you to loosen the nut? Just
like you always did.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
EXT wrote:
> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hoosierpopi wrote:
>>
>>> Now, wiseacres, I know turning to the right tightens screws and nuts
>>> and so for and turning counter-clockwise/Left, loosens/unscrews/etc.
>>>
>>> But why? Is there some practical consideration, some engineering
>>> principle involved in the decision to make screws and nuts and such in
>>> this manner?
>> My guess is that most people are right-handed, and it is easier to twist
>> your right hand clockwise than counterclockwise. (At least for me it is.)
>>
>> That said, there are cases where the design calls for "opposite" threads
>> to keep things from becoming unscrewed through normal use. Left-side
>> bicycle pedals screw onto the cranks lefty-tighty, for instance.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Up until some time in the 1960s, all Chrysler cars had right handed wheel
> nuts on one side of the car, and left wheel handed nuts on the other side, I
> don't know why. They did change to all right handed wheel nuts at some point
> in time. Probably because many people didn't know about them and spent hours
> tightening left handed nuts trying to get them off, eventually shearing the
> studs off.
Back on topic, check out your right tilt tablesaw or RAS. Lefty tighty
'cause if it was righty tighty, the start up jolt might spin the arbor
nut along with the blade off the arbor. It's not a problem on stopping
since shutdown doesn't have the jolt. In my early RAS days, I'd turn
blue in the face trying to get the arbor nut off - until I noticed the
threads on the end of the arbor. That was when you did a lot of blade
changing as HSS blades were about all that was available.
Robatoy used his keyboard to write :
> On Nov 18, 12:48 am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
>> China? ;)
>
> actually...Chinese toilets don't flush in the opposite
> direction....not even in Australia.
They don't swirl at all here in Oz. Toilets on this end of the planet
in the UK and at least some of the countries in Europe don't have as
much standing water in them as I have seen in North America. The first
time I went to a bathroom stall in the US, I saw the water level and I
thought it was broken. Flushing is not done by a whirlpool effect but
through the gravity feed of the water in the tank.
Just part of the rich tapestry of life I suppose.
Mekon
Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
> The last time I checked, China was in the Northern Hemisphere therefore the
> water swirls in the same direction as in North America (USA). The coriolis
> effect goe in the other direction in the Southern Hemishphere.
> Roger
>
(snip)
Wiki disagrees and proposes that the Coriolis effect is too small to
make any difference to swirling of water in a toilet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
Mekon
Skip Williams submitted this idea :
> Mekon,
>
> I was impressed by the toilets in Oz (I know, I know...it dosent take
> much<g>). I don't understand why we cant adapt some of your construction
> stuff here in the US like the toilet design, having water drains in the
> middle of the bathrooms and laundry rooms, and slate roofs. Makes a lot of
> sense!
>
> Skip
> www.ShopFileR.com
>
> "Mekon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Robatoy used his keyboard to write :
>>> On Nov 18, 12:48 am, Hoosierpopi <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Or, like a toilet flush, is it done just teh opposite in
>>>> China? ;)
>>>
>>> actually...Chinese toilets don't flush in the opposite
>>> direction....not even in Australia.
>>
>> They don't swirl at all here in Oz. Toilets on this end of the planet in
>> the UK and at least some of the countries in Europe don't have as much
>> standing water in them as I have seen in North America. The first time I
>> went to a bathroom stall in the US, I saw the water level and I thought it
>> was broken. Flushing is not done by a whirlpool effect but through the
>> gravity feed of the water in the tank.
>>
>> Just part of the rich tapestry of life I suppose.
>>
>> Mekon
>>
>>
We also have switches on all of our power outlets too, which a few
North Americans have found variously amusing/puzzling and impressive.
Oh and if any of you folk from up over do happen to be in Brisbane,
give me a hoy and I'll try to lay on a tour or two.
Mekon
Skip Williams expressed precisely :
> Mekon,
>
> You have switches on the power outlets because you pump 220 volts out of them
> and that would give quite a jolt<g>...but i do remember trying unsuccessfully
> to get my laptop to power up for a while until i realized that the outlet
> switch was off.
>
> We spent a month in Oz last November and had a great time...You have a
> wonderful country...we visited Sydney, Perth ,Adalaide, Augusta[sp], toured
> the Margaret and Borassa Valleys, drank a lot of wonderful wine! We will be
> back!! We have some good friends in Perth.
>
Well if you do, don't miss out on Queensland again huh?
I took our German exchange student to the Barrier Reef we did 12 dives
in three days, stunning stuff. That has to be worth a visit - at least
one of your Presidents has been there. That is about 2 hours flying
time of here, Fraser Island - A World Heritage location is about 3 hrs
drive. Steve Irwin's zoo is an hour drive away as are some of the best
beaches in the world.
And of course Brisbane itself, where you will have the services of a
local guide!
Mekon
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:16:04 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mekon wrote:
>> Roger Woehl has brought this to us :
>>> The last time I checked, China was in the Northern Hemisphere
>>> therefore the water swirls in the same direction as in North
>>> America
>>> (USA). The coriolis effect goe in the other direction in the
>>> Southern Hemishphere.
>>> Roger
>>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Wiki disagrees and proposes that the Coriolis effect is too small to
>> make any difference to swirling of water in a toilet.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
>
>So what? Wiki is mainly useful to get a quick overview of something
>about which you know absolutely nothing. It is not an authoritative
>source for much of anything except maybe wiki itself. There's a
>reason that many colleges and high schools do not accept wiki as a
>reference on term papers.
No kidding. That piece of crap operation has information which is only
as good as the most recent edit. In 30 seconds it can be
trashed--subtley or precipitously--rendering it utterly worthless. An
"information resource" which is potentially worthless is essentially,
practically worthless.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
Yep...
I had a '51 Studebaker Commander and a '63 Plymouth Valiant so I had
experience with the other side of the car's lug nuts! &^%$*^!!!
Skip
www.ShopFileR.com
"larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "EXT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Hoosierpopi wrote:
>>>
>
>>
>
>> in time. Probably because many people didn't know about them and spent
>> hours tightening left handed nuts trying to get them off, eventually
>> shearing the studs off.
>>
>>Same for Studebaker. Been there done that! 8>]]
>
>
"Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A colleague of mine actually tested this by watching water swirl down
> drains in the northern hemisphere, near the equator, and the southern
> hemisphere during various travels over a year or so. The results:
>
> 1. Swirl direction is highly sensitive to initial motion of the
> water. If the water has any spin or motion before pulling the plug, it
> will continue to swirl in that direction. To counter this effect, he
> would fill the sink at night and not pull the plug until the next
> morning.
>
> 2. IIRC, his results were not 100% but more like 80%, water in the NH
> would swirl down the drain with an opposite sense than in the SH
> (can't remember which one was CC and which was CCW).
>
> So based on his observations, the effect is weak, but it is there.
>
> Kevin
Having done the same experiments myself, and using coriolis and geostrophic
winds in air navigation,
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/geos.rxml your friend is
tugging at your trouser leg.
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html
Northern hemisphere, when the wind's to your back the low's to your left.
Good mnemonic for weather prediction and coriolis.