Router Lifts - the next generation?

$500 ffor lift, $100+ for bits, add materials for table, time to make it
etc. Perhaps a Incra, add another coupla hunnert...

At what point do we start thinking about a shaper? At $549 on Amazon its a
toss-up:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000223MX/qid=1098501159/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl60/002-8596406-9921630?v=glance&s=home-garden&n=507846
--

Greg


"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> that's just for the lift, no router included.

igor:
>What can a shaper not do that a table-mounted router w/ a lift can do? My
>sense is that a shaper can only work on the edge of wood -- e.g., not
>cutting a groove. Wrong?

With a collet a shaper can cut grooves.

UA100

On 24 Oct 2004 07:33:24 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>
>derogatory term "worddorker", would by a $250,000 router? That seems

Dorker, dorkin', dorkification - Dork is not derogatory at all.
Kind'a like "Nerd", but not at all like "Geek"...

Wow. I got a lot of negative replies on that post. Are we talking
about the same thig? I saw an electronic router lift that is activated
with a button, has electronic control for backlash, and a digital
readout. Why are folks comparing that to shapers? I must be missing
something.....

Wouldn't it be more apropriate to compare to JessEm's Rout-R-Lift, or
Bench Dog's ProLift, or the Woodpecker's Precision Lift?

The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).




[email protected] (Never Enough Money) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> that's just for the lift, no router included.

Just so we remain completely accurate....

My caculator says 1/128 = 0.0078 = ~ 0.008. You had an extra zero.
That's eight times less accurate than a 1/1000'th machine.



Similarly 1/64 is close to 0.016, not 0.0016, as you say.

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 23 Oct 2004 14:19:19 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
> Money) wrote:
>
> >Wow. I got a lot of negative replies on that post. Are we talking
> >about the same thig? I saw an electronic router lift that is activated
> >with a button, has electronic control for backlash, and a digital
> >readout. Why are folks comparing that to shapers? I must be missing
> >something.....
>
> Because it's way too expensive for a router accessory. It puts a
> regular router into a shaper's price range, without the extra power
> and sturdy base.
>
> >Wouldn't it be more apropriate to compare to JessEm's Rout-R-Lift, or
> >Bench Dog's ProLift, or the Woodpecker's Precision Lift?
> >
> >The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
> >the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).
>
> Not to nitpick, but a 128th of an inch is only about .0008" I was
> under the impression that anything closer than a 64th (.0016") was
> considered extremely accurate and fine craftsmanship when it comes to
> woodworking. What is it you intend to rout that needs a tolerance of
> .0001"?
>
> It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
> tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
> run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
> those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
> still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
> tune.
> >
> >
> >
> >[email protected] (Never Enough Money) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >> http://www.jointech.com/
> >>
> >> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> >> that's just for the lift, no router included.

Ouch.

Actually, after all the "professional" feedback, this woodworker will
NOT drop money for the lift. Even if the feedback had been "it's great
you've got to get it" it would probably not have happened -- it's so
low down on the priority lists.

The real question is what kind of woodworker, I'll refrain from the
derogatory term "worddorker", would by a $250,000 router? That seems
high even for a factory floor. Is it for mouldings? Surely it does
more than route.

BTW, I am tired of reaching under my table and repeatedly adjusting
measuring, adjusting-measuring, etc. until I creep in on an accurate
enough setting......

Also question to the whole group, not just UA100: given all the
anti-router lift pro-shaper feedback, I'd say none of you uses a
router lift. I find that difficult to beleive. Surely there's someone
out there willing to 'fess up.


Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Never Enough Money wrote:
> >http://www.jointech.com/
> >Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> >that's just for the lift, no router included.
>
>
> Looks like someone(s) lacking basic wooddorking skills will
> soon be out five hunnert dollars.
>
> UA100, who to be truthful, has relied on a $250,000 router
> (at work of course) from time to time...

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message
[snip]
>

> It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
> tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
> run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
> those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
> still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
> tune.

Good point. I may be mixing up the term accuracy with the term
precision.

However, from a logical point of view it is incorrect to say a
$600,000 saw can be a $500 in everything. The $60K mama probably has
much more horsepower and a bunch of other stuff -- that's true. But
just like a hang-glider can make a sharper turn than and F-16 Figher,
a $500 saw might be able to beat a $60,000 saw at _some_ things.

I'm debating your logic _not_ whether your statement that a $60K saw
is better than a $500 one. If the router in question is much lighter
or smaller it is possible that a $500 lift on a $250 router could be
comparable to a $60K setup that is much bigger an requires more
mechanics to solve the precision/accuracy problems.


Just my, 2 cents - not trying to start a posting war.

If my boss tells me I "dorked it up" it's a bad thing. Therefore,
wooddorking means, to me, doing bad things to wood. To call one a
wooddorker, therefore, would be to cal them "one who messes up wood.

Merriam-Webster says "dork" is "perhaps an alteration of dick."

Dick has several meanings. One is "fellow or chap", another is
"penis". When used as a verb, it means a mistake made with a penis.
Wooddicker.

Dicker, Dickin',Dickification.

I guess, I still think it's derogatory, only slightly less so than
using it's synonym: dick.


patrick conroy <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 24 Oct 2004 07:33:24 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
> Money) wrote:
>
> >
> >derogatory term "worddorker", would by a $250,000 router? That seems
>
> Dorker, dorkin', dorkification - Dork is not derogatory at all.
> Kind'a like "Nerd", but not at all like "Geek"...

ok. I'll try not to be insulted. So just in case you're pulling my
leg, I'll still not use it. There may be some other "me" out there
that might take offense.

While we're on the subject of vocabulary unique to rec.woodowrking,
what does "neaderthal" mean? I think it manes those that like hand
tools, but I'm not sure. What's the opposite, i.e. what do you call
those that like power tools?


"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > the thing is, Wooddorking is a term native to the wreck. it was penned
> > as a typo by one of our regulars some 5 or 6 years ago. I don't
> > remember _who_ it was, but I remember the post. Here it is a term of
> > endearment and frankly a badge of honor. you may use it as a
> > derogatory, and outside of the wreck you'd probably be understood, but
> > here it would be a misuse of the term.
>
> I have to agree. It depends on the context in which the word is used. Here
> in this NG, I've always taken it to simply mean, "one who works with wood".
> Whether the project turns out fine or is a pile of junk is irrelevant, it's
> just a familial name that one applies to themselves or a fellow woodworker.

Fri, Oct 22, 2004, 6:02pm (EDT-3) [email protected]
(Never=A0Enough=A0Money) says:
http://www.jointech.com/
Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00, that's
just for the lift, no router included.

At that kind of money, I think I'd just have dedicated routers in
tables, at all heights I'd be using. Probably cheaper.



JOAT
Eagles can soar ... but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Greg Millen wrote:
>At what point do we start thinking about a shaper? At $549 on Amazon its a
>toss-up:


Yahbut, which would you rather have, An Ultimate Router
Table or something creamy colored (coloured Greg) from
Amazondotcom?

UA100, owner/builder of An Ultimate Router Table...

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:29:30 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Good craftsmanship will always be well done by a craftsman. A hack with
>craftsman's tools is still a hack. (I think I'm in the middle. OK, low
>middle)
>
OTOH, I think my middle is getting lower.

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 23 Oct 2004 14:19:19 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
>Money) wrote:

>>The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
>>the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).
>
>Not to nitpick, but a 128th of an inch is only about .0008" I was
>under the impression that anything closer than a 64th (.0016") was
>considered extremely accurate and fine craftsmanship when it comes to
>woodworking. What is it you intend to rout that needs a tolerance of
>.0001"?

Not to nitpick, but I think you have an extra "0" to the right of the
decimal in each of your numbers above. But I absolutely agree with
your point. This is WOOD working, not metal fabrication.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On 24 Oct 2004 07:41:02 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message
>[snip]
>>
>
>> It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
>> tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
>> run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
>> those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
>> still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
>> tune.
>
>Good point. I may be mixing up the term accuracy with the term
>precision.
>
>However, from a logical point of view it is incorrect to say a
>$600,000 saw can be a $500 in everything. The $60K mama probably has
>much more horsepower and a bunch of other stuff -- that's true. But
>just like a hang-glider can make a sharper turn than and F-16 Figher,
>a $500 saw might be able to beat a $60,000 saw at _some_ things.
>
>I'm debating your logic _not_ whether your statement that a $60K saw
>is better than a $500 one. If the router in question is much lighter
>or smaller it is possible that a $500 lift on a $250 router could be
>comparable to a $60K setup that is much bigger an requires more
>mechanics to solve the precision/accuracy problems.

It could be, but it seems a little unlikely, given that the router is
not built into the lift, and the lift is not built into a table.
Also, as an FYI, the expensive industrial equipment is usually not
that much more complex mechanically, it is just much sturdier, and
less prone to losing it's adjustments if you bang it a little.

>
>Just my, 2 cents - not trying to start a posting war.

You are correct; plenty of negative comments were made. And yes, the
Jessem should be compared to the PRL.

David

Never Enough Money wrote:

> Wow. I got a lot of negative replies on that post. Are we talking
> about the same thig? I saw an electronic router lift that is activated
> with a button, has electronic control for backlash, and a digital
> readout. Why are folks comparing that to shapers? I must be missing
> something.....
>
> Wouldn't it be more apropriate to compare to JessEm's Rout-R-Lift, or
> Bench Dog's ProLift, or the Woodpecker's Precision Lift?
>
> The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
> the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).
>
>
>
>
> [email protected] (Never Enough Money) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>http://www.jointech.com/
>>
>>Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
>>that's just for the lift, no router included.

Greg Millen wrote:

> $500 ffor lift, $100+ for bits, add materials for table, time to make it
> etc. Perhaps a Incra, add another coupla hunnert...
>
> At what point do we start thinking about a shaper? At $549 on Amazon its a
> toss-up:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000223MX/qid=1098501159/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl60/002-8596406-9921630?v=glance&s=home-garden&n=507846

You will get more variation from other factors. Your Router / Lift
combination doesn't have to be super accurate. A slight warp in the board, a
little sawdust under it or between the fence, some flex on the tabletop or
fence, sanding, effects of humidity, etc. will negate the accuracy to
1/1000" from any tool. And, what about the rest of your project? Anything
you cut with other tools will be less accurate, and as soon as you start
sanding.....

So, reasonable accuracy and a well built, easy to use accessory is the key.
I use a PC690 under my table without a lift. Eye-balling, a ruler with
1/64ths graduations and most importantly, set-up pieces and test pieces,
does the trick for me. Would I like a lift? Yes, and will probably buy one
some time. But the height adjustment accuracy won't be the top priority.

Michel.

> >
> > The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
> > the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).
> >

And for about $325 you can buy a Triton or Milwaukee router that basically
does the same thing and you end up with a new router.


"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> that's just for the lift, no router included.

"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> that's just for the lift, no router included.

Certainly looks good. I question the ability to zero out a bit though. They
state you only have to do it the first time you ever use a bit.

Given the variability of putting a bit into the router, I'd think it could
easily vary a few thousandths each time nulling any previous settings. I
don't seat the bit on the very bottom of my router.

Other direct drive units (like Benchdog) have a similar indicator like they
have in the Pro series. Nice feature. The Pro series seems to be priced
competitively. Well worth considering either model from what I can see
here.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> There was so much backlash in the previous version of their lift, they
> HAD to engineer a solution: looks like your link shows the fruits of
> their efforts.
>
> David
>
coughcoughBullcoughShitcough

When compared to others during the same time frame.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Also question to the whole group, not just UA100: given all the
> anti-router lift pro-shaper feedback, I'd say none of you uses a
> router lift. I find that difficult to beleive. Surely there's someone
> out there willing to 'fess up.
>
I use the Jessem MAST-R-LIFT which is the same as the Jointech.
Yes I like it. I got tired of going under the table to fiddle with the
height, now its just a matter of turning a crank from above. Another
thing is the height is repeatable. I've tried that without the lift with
just a router, again more fiddling and its basically hit or miss.
Bottom line is I would buy it again without question. The only
thing that made me put off buying one for a couple of years was the
price. I should of bought it sooner which would of saved me alot of
aggravation.
Now to the nifty digital one, would I buy that one? Probably not
because what happens when the electronics fail? I can rebuild a
mechanical one if need be, but electronics forget about it.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:n%[email protected]...
>
>> a matter time before they become obsolete. They are an expensive fix for
> a
>> problem that is being addressed my many router manufacturers already.
>> PC,
>> Milwaukee, Bosch, and Triton have already eliminated a need for a lift at
>> all. The electronic lifts with electronic read out and electronic back
> lash
>> control is way overkill.
>
> In defence of that router lift, they also showed a model with the same
> construction but is mechanically operated, not digital. It was $200 less I
> believe.

IMHO still too high. You can buy a new router with router lift features
built in, in the $300 range.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:n%[email protected]...

> a matter time before they become obsolete. They are an expensive fix for
a
> problem that is being addressed my many router manufacturers already. PC,
> Milwaukee, Bosch, and Triton have already eliminated a need for a lift at
> all. The electronic lifts with electronic read out and electronic back
lash
> control is way overkill.

In defence of that router lift, they also showed a model with the same
construction but is mechanically operated, not digital. It was $200 less I
believe.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> the thing is, Wooddorking is a term native to the wreck. it was penned
> as a typo by one of our regulars some 5 or 6 years ago. I don't
> remember _who_ it was, but I remember the post. Here it is a term of
> endearment and frankly a badge of honor. you may use it as a
> derogatory, and outside of the wreck you'd probably be understood, but
> here it would be a misuse of the term.

I have to agree. It depends on the context in which the word is used. Here
in this NG, I've always taken it to simply mean, "one who works with wood".
Whether the project turns out fine or is a pile of junk is irrelevant, it's
just a familial name that one applies to themselves or a fellow woodworker.

"igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:17:50 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
> Leon -- Thanks for the comments. I am still intrigued by it, especially
> the foot pedal because it seems it would make it easier/safer to do
> non-full-length operations, among other things. From what you wrote,
> seems
> that the best chance would be with a smaller router with limited
> integrated
> adjustment means.

The way the Bit Jack worked on my particular router is that it threaded on
the shaft that had the jam nuts. these nuts could be positioned on the
shaft to limit up and down travel dimilar th those on a drill press. On my
model the threaded shaft on the router was too far from the 2 plunge shafts
to make a nice parallel force of motion. Oddly if I twisted, turned the
jack in another direction the operation was smoother. Unfortunately that
position left the handle in odd position. I never got to the point of using
the foot operated set up.


>
> Also, FWIW, I noted at Amazon some negative comments about the Triton --
> though everyone seemed to like the basic design. Apparently qc issues,
> but
> they were from 18 months ago. Considering some of your posts about how
> determined you are to get service if you find a tool lacking - components
> failing -- I assume you did not confront these problems with your router.
> Again, thanks. -- Igor

Yeah I read all those comments also. That said I contacted the service
guys with Triton prior to making my purchase. The assure me that the would
take care of any problems that might come up. Several of the issues have
been corrected and I have seen none of the problems with the newer models.
That said, mine would shut off during moderate feed rates with shallow cuts.
The switch literally vibrated and shut off. Sooo I contacted Triton and
they admitted to having heard of "1" other instance... Hummm.. They
instructed me to return it to the store that I bought it from 2 months prior
and exchange it for another unit. The new one has been doing fine. Fit and
finish is a bit to be desired but performance and features have been a
delight. Also I bought from Woodcraft. They have a 1 year bring it back if
you are not satisfied policy so the risk was low. I have about 7 months
left to see if any thing else happens but for the last 90 days nothing has
been a problem. It was a toss up between this router and the big Milwaukee.
Feature for feature the Triton took the race.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:17:50 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Nope, I ultimately was not happy with it. It, IMHO is a good idea and is
>well built but the router being lifted from one side and or the threaded
>adjustment shaft in the router causes it to easily bind. I found that it
>made adjusting the bit height about 10% easier than using nothing at all. I
>was using an old and large Bosch 1611 plunge router. I ended up buying a
>Triton and I am Very happy with its features in particular ease of height
>adjustments and bit changes above the table without removing the router.
>
Leon -- Thanks for the comments. I am still intrigued by it, especially
the foot pedal because it seems it would make it easier/safer to do
non-full-length operations, among other things. From what you wrote, seems
that the best chance would be with a smaller router with limited integrated
adjustment means.

Also, FWIW, I noted at Amazon some negative comments about the Triton --
though everyone seemed to like the basic design. Apparently qc issues, but
they were from 18 months ago. Considering some of your posts about how
determined you are to get service if you find a tool lacking - components
failing -- I assume you did not confront these problems with your router.
Again, thanks. -- Igor

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:49:01 -0500, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:

>igor:
>>What can a shaper not do that a table-mounted router w/ a lift can do? My
>>sense is that a shaper can only work on the edge of wood -- e.g., not
>>cutting a groove. Wrong?
>
>With a collet a shaper can cut grooves.
>
>UA100



RPM's are a little low for smaller bits though.

really, router tables and shapers are different beasts, with some
overlap of function. if you're doing mostly small work, short run and
need maximum versatility you prolly want a router table. if you're
making a lot of chips, using big profile cutters and need the machine
to run all day you'd better get a shaper.

Never Enough Money wrote:
>http://www.jointech.com/
>Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
>that's just for the lift, no router included.


Looks like someone(s) lacking basic wooddorking skills will
soon be out five hunnert dollars.

UA100, who to be truthful, has relied on a $250,000 router
(at work of course) from time to time...

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The electronic lifts with electronic read out and electronic back lash
> control is way overkill.
>

But its new and since is it digital it MUST be better.

Good craftsmanship will always be well done by a craftsman. A hack with
craftsman's tools is still a hack. (I think I'm in the middle. OK, low
middle)

[email protected] (Never Enough Money) wrote:


>While we're on the subject of vocabulary unique to rec.woodowrking,
>what does "neaderthal" mean? I think it manes those that like hand
>tools, but I'm not sure.
With one more "n", you hit the nail on the head. (Neanderthal)

> What's the opposite, i.e. what do you call
>those that like power tools?
Normite. After Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame.


--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:14:49 +1000, "Greg Millen"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:

>$500 ffor lift, $100+ for bits, add materials for table, time to make it
>etc. Perhaps a Incra, add another coupla hunnert...
>
>At what point do we start thinking about a shaper? At $549 on Amazon its a
>toss-up:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000223MX/qid=1098501159/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl60/002-8596406-9921630?v=glance&s=home-garden&n=507846

Or the Griz G1035 for $425 (+$58 freight)
"Built with plenty of muscle to take on most shaping challenges, our
mid-sized, 1-1/2 H.P. Model G1035 Shaper offers the perfect,
low-priced alternative for the serious hobbyist or small-shop owner.
The G1035 offers precision wheel adjustment, two spindle speeds, a
finely milled cast iron table, interchangeable spindles and sealed
ball bearing movement - all for less than the price of a router and
router table!"

Or the ShopFox G4792 2hp for $675 (+$78)
"Designed to compete with the power of larger machines while
capitalizing on the mobility of smaller models, this new Shop Fox®
shaper offers the perfect balance for serious woodworkers. The extra
power of the 2 H.P. motor will have you racing through profiles in
even the heaviest hardwoods, and the large 24" x 21" table gives you
the added working surface found only on larger shapers. If you've been
looking for the perfect shaper to put in your shop, you've found it
with the Shop Fox®!"

I love my ShopFox mortiser. ('cept for the cloggy chisel/bit
interface, but that's true on all brands) Fit 'n finish is vgood.

Anywho, that's no toss-up. Drop kick that routah. It's outta heah.

--
"If the promise of the Declaration of Independence is ever to be fulfilled,
it will be the Libertarian Party which fulfills it. If the Constitution is
ever again treated as what it calls itself "The Supreme Law of the Land"
then it will be the Libertarian Party which forces it to be treated that
way. The Republicans and Democrats won’t do it. So the future of the
Libertarian Party is tied to the future of America. If we go down, it
goes down with us. If America gets itself back onto the right course,
it will be our hands on the tiller." --Michael Badnarik

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:50:00 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:

>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 23 Oct 2004 14:19:19 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
>>Money) wrote:
>
>>>The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
>>>the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).
>>
>>Not to nitpick, but a 128th of an inch is only about .0008" I was
>>under the impression that anything closer than a 64th (.0016") was
>>considered extremely accurate and fine craftsmanship when it comes to
>>woodworking. What is it you intend to rout that needs a tolerance of
>>.0001"?
>
>Not to nitpick, but I think you have an extra "0" to the right of the
>decimal in each of your numbers above. But I absolutely agree with
>your point. This is WOOD working, not metal fabrication.

By Jove, you're right! Thanks for the correction...

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:31:29 GMT, igor <[email protected]> wrote:

>What can a shaper not do that a table-mounted router w/ a lift can do?

Give a good finish.

UK practice is that shapers have collets, and the ones with the shaft,
large head and separate knives are called spindle moulders. My shaper
experience has been something of a disappointment, because the edge
speed is too slow for optimum cutting. Spindle moulders use the same
rpm on a much large cutter diameter, so they're OK.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:25:39 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>For the price of the lift, router table, and router it would be cheaper to
>buy a shaper.

What can a shaper not do that a table-mounted router w/ a lift can do? My
sense is that a shaper can only work on the edge of wood -- e.g., not
cutting a groove. Wrong?

I've been considering a new router and getting the Veritas® Router Bit
Jack, about which I cannot quite figure out how it can be so relatively
inexpensive, assuming it meets the normal good LV standards. And, I like
the foot pedal setup.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=43039&category=1,43000

Leon, I did find an old post where you mentioned having the Bit Jack.
Still happy w/ it? What router are you using w/ it? TIA. -- Igor

Bridger J:
>the thing is, Wooddorking is a term native to the wreck. it was penned
>as a typo by one of our regulars some 5 or 6 years ago. I don't
>remember _who_ it was, but I remember the post. Here it is a term of
>endearment and frankly a badge of honor. you may use it as a
>derogatory, and outside of the wreck you'd probably be understood, but
>here it would be a misuse of the term.


If my memory serves me, the hand of O'Deen is/was in there
somewhere in which case there is an honor by association.

UA100

"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> The real question is what kind of woodworker, I'll refrain from the
> derogatory term "worddorker", would by a $250,000 router? That seems
> high even for a factory floor. Is it for mouldings? Surely it does
> more than route.

I don't think any home shop will have one, but it is not all that out of
rance for a procution ship. I've beenin factories that make speaker
cabinets. I'd guess at an investment of $15,000,000 or more. And that was
not one of the biggest.


>
> Also question to the whole group, not just UA100: given all the
> anti-router lift pro-shaper feedback, I'd say none of you uses a
> router lift. I find that difficult to beleive. Surely there's someone
> out there willing to 'fess up.

I have a Benchdog. Paid $230 for it. Did I need it? No. Did I want it?
YES. I enjoy using it and it makes adjustment easy and I can sneak up on
any measurement. Would I pay $500 for a digital? No, I have a limit to my
toys and could not justify that much money for my use. Benchdog seems to
have eliminated that model and now only sells the "pro lift" at about $100
more.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wow. I got a lot of negative replies on that post. Are we talking
> about the same thig? I saw an electronic router lift that is activated
> with a button, has electronic control for backlash, and a digital
> readout. Why are folks comparing that to shapers? I must be missing
> something.....
>
> Wouldn't it be more apropriate to compare to JessEm's Rout-R-Lift, or
> Bench Dog's ProLift, or the Woodpecker's Precision Lift?
>
> The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
> the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).


For the price of the lift, router table, and router it would be cheaper to
buy a shaper. I think in the case of all the router lifts it will simply be
a matter time before they become obsolete. They are an expensive fix for a
problem that is being addressed my many router manufacturers already. PC,
Milwaukee, Bosch, and Triton have already eliminated a need for a lift at
all. The electronic lifts with electronic read out and electronic back lash
control is way overkill.

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:33:02 GMT, igor <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:29:30 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Good craftsmanship will always be well done by a craftsman. A hack with
>>craftsman's tools is still a hack. (I think I'm in the middle. OK, low
>>middle)
>>
>OTOH, I think my middle is getting lower.
>
I thought that mine was, but realized it was the 4x4's that I raised
my bench with... *g*

On 25 Oct 2004 19:14:11 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>If my boss tells me I "dorked it up" it's a bad thing. Therefore,
>wooddorking means, to me, doing bad things to wood. To call one a
>wooddorker, therefore, would be to cal them "one who messes up wood.
>
>Merriam-Webster says "dork" is "perhaps an alteration of dick."
>
>Dick has several meanings. One is "fellow or chap", another is
>"penis". When used as a verb, it means a mistake made with a penis.
>Wooddicker.
>
>Dicker, Dickin',Dickification.
>
>I guess, I still think it's derogatory, only slightly less so than
>using it's synonym: dick.


the thing is, Wooddorking is a term native to the wreck. it was penned
as a typo by one of our regulars some 5 or 6 years ago. I don't
remember _who_ it was, but I remember the post. Here it is a term of
endearment and frankly a badge of honor. you may use it as a
derogatory, and outside of the wreck you'd probably be understood, but
here it would be a misuse of the term.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 09:21:06 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On 24 Oct 2004 07:41:02 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
>Money) wrote:
>
>>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>[snip]
>>>
>>
>>> It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
>>> tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
>>> run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
>>> those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
>>> still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
>>> tune.
>>
>>Good point. I may be mixing up the term accuracy with the term
>>precision.
>>
>>However, from a logical point of view it is incorrect to say a
>>$600,000 saw can be a $500 in everything. The $60K mama probably has
>>much more horsepower and a bunch of other stuff -- that's true. But
>>just like a hang-glider can make a sharper turn than and F-16 Figher,
>>a $500 saw might be able to beat a $60,000 saw at _some_ things.
>>
>>I'm debating your logic _not_ whether your statement that a $60K saw
>>is better than a $500 one. If the router in question is much lighter
>>or smaller it is possible that a $500 lift on a $250 router could be
>>comparable to a $60K setup that is much bigger an requires more
>>mechanics to solve the precision/accuracy problems.
>>
>>
>>Just my, 2 cents - not trying to start a posting war.
>
>
>I think what 5 figures gives you aside from a half a ton of iron is
>CNC....

and a major tax write off..

On 23 Oct 2004 14:19:19 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>Wow. I got a lot of negative replies on that post. Are we talking
>about the same thig? I saw an electronic router lift that is activated
>with a button, has electronic control for backlash, and a digital
>readout. Why are folks comparing that to shapers? I must be missing
>something.....

Because it's way too expensive for a router accessory. It puts a
regular router into a shaper's price range, without the extra power
and sturdy base.

>Wouldn't it be more apropriate to compare to JessEm's Rout-R-Lift, or
>Bench Dog's ProLift, or the Woodpecker's Precision Lift?
>
>The routers with built in lifts are a lot less accurate (I think -- on
>the order of 1/128'th of an inch versus 1/1000'th).

Not to nitpick, but a 128th of an inch is only about .0008" I was
under the impression that anything closer than a 64th (.0016") was
considered extremely accurate and fine craftsmanship when it comes to
woodworking. What is it you intend to rout that needs a tolerance of
.0001"?

It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
tune.
>
>
>
>[email protected] (Never Enough Money) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> http://www.jointech.com/
>>
>> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
>> that's just for the lift, no router included.

On 24 Oct 2004 07:41:02 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message
>[snip]
>>
>
>> It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
>> tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
>> run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
>> those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
>> still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
>> tune.
>
>Good point. I may be mixing up the term accuracy with the term
>precision.
>
>However, from a logical point of view it is incorrect to say a
>$600,000 saw can be a $500 in everything. The $60K mama probably has
>much more horsepower and a bunch of other stuff -- that's true. But
>just like a hang-glider can make a sharper turn than and F-16 Figher,
>a $500 saw might be able to beat a $60,000 saw at _some_ things.
>
>I'm debating your logic _not_ whether your statement that a $60K saw
>is better than a $500 one. If the router in question is much lighter
>or smaller it is possible that a $500 lift on a $250 router could be
>comparable to a $60K setup that is much bigger an requires more
>mechanics to solve the precision/accuracy problems.
>
>
>Just my, 2 cents - not trying to start a posting war.


I think what 5 figures gives you aside from a half a ton of iron is
CNC....

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 09:21:06 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On 24 Oct 2004 07:41:02 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
>Money) wrote:
>
>>Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>[snip]
>>>
>>
>>> It's also important to note that there is going to be an accuracy
>>> tolerance on the lift, and it is not going to be one thousandth. I
>>> run a couple of $60,000 saws, and the initial tolerance is .002 for
>>> those. No way is a router lift going to beat that for $500. You
>>> still have to measure when you set up- it'd just be easier to fine
>>> tune.
>>
>>Good point. I may be mixing up the term accuracy with the term
>>precision.
>>
>>However, from a logical point of view it is incorrect to say a
>>$600,000 saw can be a $500 in everything. The $60K mama probably has
>>much more horsepower and a bunch of other stuff -- that's true. But
>>just like a hang-glider can make a sharper turn than and F-16 Figher,
>>a $500 saw might be able to beat a $60,000 saw at _some_ things.
>>
>>I'm debating your logic _not_ whether your statement that a $60K saw
>>is better than a $500 one. If the router in question is much lighter
>>or smaller it is possible that a $500 lift on a $250 router could be
>>comparable to a $60K setup that is much bigger an requires more
>>mechanics to solve the precision/accuracy problems.
>>
>>
>>Just my, 2 cents - not trying to start a posting war.
>
>
>I think what 5 figures gives you aside from a half a ton of iron is
>CNC....

Yep. But it's way more than a 1/2 ton of iron- probably more like 3
or 4.

"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If my boss tells me I "dorked it up" it's a bad thing. Therefore,
> wooddorking means, to me, doing bad things to wood. To call one a
> wooddorker, therefore, would be to cal them "one who messes up wood.
>
> Merriam-Webster says "dork" is "perhaps an alteration of dick."
>
> Dick has several meanings. One is "fellow or chap", another is
> "penis". When used as a verb, it means a mistake made with a penis.
> Wooddicker.
>
> Dicker, Dickin',Dickification.
>
> I guess, I still think it's derogatory, only slightly less so than
> using it's synonym: dick.

Yeah I see it your way too but in this news group, it is a lot like You
Suck. If you boss sucks, that is not a good thing, ...... usually not a
good thing.

On 24 Oct 2004 07:33:24 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>Ouch.
>
>Actually, after all the "professional" feedback, this woodworker will
>NOT drop money for the lift. Even if the feedback had been "it's great
>you've got to get it" it would probably not have happened -- it's so
>low down on the priority lists.
>
>The real question is what kind of woodworker, I'll refrain from the
>derogatory term "worddorker", would by a $250,000 router? That seems
>high even for a factory floor. Is it for mouldings? Surely it does
>more than route.
>
>BTW, I am tired of reaching under my table and repeatedly adjusting
>measuring, adjusting-measuring, etc. until I creep in on an accurate
>enough setting......
>
>Also question to the whole group, not just UA100: given all the
>anti-router lift pro-shaper feedback, I'd say none of you uses a
>router lift. I find that difficult to beleive. Surely there's someone
>out there willing to 'fess up.

There was a tip sent in from a subscriber in a recent issue of
Woodsmith that suggested using a bar clamp as a router lift, and it
looked pretty useful to me. Maybe you could try that out, and then
you could use the extra money to get a different tool!

>
>Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Never Enough Money wrote:
>> >http://www.jointech.com/
>> >Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
>> >that's just for the lift, no router included.
>>
>>
>> Looks like someone(s) lacking basic wooddorking skills will
>> soon be out five hunnert dollars.
>>
>> UA100, who to be truthful, has relied on a $250,000 router
>> (at work of course) from time to time...

Never Enough Money wrote:
>Ouch.

Sorry. Was it a wee bit close to the balls?

>The real question is what kind of woodworker, I'll refrain from the
>derogatory term "worddorker", would by a $250,000 router?

A very high end custom architectural wooddo..., err,
woodworker. Most people never see our work unless their
daddy is a gazzilionaire or they work for some Fortunate 500
company. OK, maybe if you've ever been to Lambeau Field/go
to Vegas/are a patron of the arts...

>That seems high even for a factory floor.

The extra $100M or so gives you a larger table. We're
somewheres in the 5' X 14' (ish)/might be 12'. Another $25M
gets you multiple tooling (a carriage that's pre-loaded with
all the goodies you will need/not just one bit at a time.

>Is it for mouldings?

We do an enormous amount of radius work, everything from
radius moldings to radius millwork walls. The CNC allows
for making shaper jigs, radius plates and just about
anything Al Gore's AutoCAD (2004 of course) can dish out.

>Surely it does more than route.

It line bores. It has a saw head but for the most part it
routs and shapes. Believe it or don't but mostly what goes
through it is plain old particleboard. The thing here is
that the parts and pieces have some consistency in which
case we can measure it in a RCH/less than a gnat's ass.

Before CAD/CNC we spent a hellva lotta time ($$$) on our
knees making full size shaper templates. I am/was quite
good at swinging a big radii with a 100' steel tape and
trammel bar. Gladly I no longer need to express these/those
skills.

>BTW, I am tired of reaching under my table and repeatedly adjusting
>measuring, adjusting-measuring, etc. until I creep in on an accurate
>enough setting......

A'yup. That's why I bought a router lift. :-)

>Also question to the whole group, not just UA100: given all the
>anti-router lift pro-shaper feedback, I'd say none of you uses a
>router lift.

I'm not sure I speak for the other nay sayers but you've
mis-understood my comments. I'm all over the router
lift/recommend it at the drop of a hat/can't say enough nice
things about it/built a god damned shrine for mine. It's
the digi part that I think has gone 'round the bend. There
are things you will learn in your shop. Most of these
things will surprise you onna 'count of you'll try it
once/twice/three times and you'll find on time number four
you've got it aced. Getting your router cranked just right
is one of those things that just ain't that hard to do.

>I find that difficult to beleive. Surely there's someone
>out there willing to 'fess up.

Can I consider myself fess'd?

UA100

There was so much backlash in the previous version of their lift, they
HAD to engineer a solution: looks like your link shows the fruits of
their efforts.

David

Never Enough Money wrote:
> http://www.jointech.com/
>
> Looks like an advancment to me. Of course it cost almost $500.00,
> that's just for the lift, no router included.

"igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Leon, I did find an old post where you mentioned having the Bit Jack.
> Still happy w/ it? What router are you using w/ it? TIA. -- Igor



Nope, I ultimately was not happy with it. It, IMHO is a good idea and is
well built but the router being lifted from one side and or the threaded
adjustment shaft in the router causes it to easily bind. I found that it
made adjusting the bit height about 10% easier than using nothing at all. I
was using an old and large Bosch 1611 plunge router. I ended up buying a
Triton and I am Very happy with its features in particular ease of height
adjustments and bit changes above the table without removing the router.