12 volt lithium battery drill/impact driver- recommendations?

On 11/16/2013 10:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>
>> What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
>> each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
>> That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
>> end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
>> the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
>> it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
>> down.
>
> How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?
>
Generally they are not just connected in series.
Nicads and nimh were, but not lion or lipo.


The better batteries have prongs for the drill, or whatever
and another set for monitoring the cells. Charging can be done on the
normal prongs, but monitoring is done on the second set. They are not
monitoring for heat like nicad and nimh, they are monitoring for
voltage. They need to be close, and they can't exceed the recommended
cells voltage. Same with depletion of batteries, they can't be drawn
down to low or they may not charge again, or worse. So the manufacturers
have handled that. You'll see all the lion/lipo units stop when voltage
drops. So if you are drawing a lot of amps it will cut out. let it cool
and the battery bounces back a bit and you can continue... but it's a
matter of time b4 it stops running and needs charging.

Even the cheapies have something, probably not as good. Take a look at
your pack, you will see another set of connectors.

I love the Lithium technology the drills are always ready. No quick
discharge like the nicad/nimhs had.




--
Jeff

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 02:34:48 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:04:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>> If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
>>> batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
>>> 18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
>>> Li-ion.
>
>>Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
>>Leon.
>
>Well, the18v Li-ion are lighter than the other 18v batteries, but not
>enough so that he won't feel the weight of them. As suggested, I have
>to agree that the 12v tools (of any battery type) are much lighter
>than their 18v brethren and that's what I'd recommend in this
>instance.

the only time I use the 18V tools is when I'm driving >3" screws or
drilling >3/8" holes. ...give or take. Auger bits kinda need the
torque of the 18V drill.

>Of course, the only real solution to this problem is for the OP to go
>to the store and find out for himself. It's his arms that will answer
>the question of what to buy.

Yes, comparing how they feel in your hand is important. Balance and
feel are personal preference.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> I would think that would not be difficult. In my automotive days and
>> when you could open the cells to add water you could put a probe down
>> inside each cell of a 12 volt car battery and get the voltage of each
>> cell. It is cumulative but when you move up a cell and the voltage
>> does not change the cell is dead.
>
> Except that in those days (and even today if you know how to do it), you
> could access each cell in a series scheme. Not so with a charger that has
> contacts that do not wire to each cell. Methinks there is much more
> smoke-mirrors-and-lights going on in groups like this than there is actual
> factual information about stuff like this.

There is circuitry inside the battery pack thar monitors charging and the
voltage of each cell. Not saying that is actually how it is done but how it
could be done.

Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 11/17/2013 7:16 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock out
>>> the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a UPS.
>>> Problem solved.
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS to
>> take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the house
>> for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended period of
>> time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR permanently freaked
>> out because of the low voltage coming from the UPS as it was running out
>> of back up power. He created his own brown out machine. The whole
>> tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>
> Thanks for making me feel confident. ;)

If only the DVR could power down like a computer does when the power is out
for more than a few minutes.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My last
> rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90 day warranty.

No Dewally, no need for Primecell, yet.

Since I switched to Makita (again, after 25 years), it's amazing how I
don't even think about cordless batteries any longer.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
>> batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
>> 18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
>> Li-ion.
>
> Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
> Leon.
>


I'll have to say that I have never seen a "full sized" Li-ion battery then,
although the 15.4v 3.0 amp Li-ion battery on my Festool drill is at least
double the size of the 18 v Li-ion on my Bosch impact. Both are feather
weights compares to the 12 v Makita 2.6 amp Ni Metal

"Mike" wrote:

> I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years
> old and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the
> batteries hardly get warm from use or recharge.
>
> However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
> suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will
> overheat. I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that
> doesn't need to be on.

-----------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, about 96-97 time line I bought an 18 VDC DeWalt drill and
panel saw kit.

After about a year, DeWalt issued a recall of the charger due to over
heating problems.

Got a new changer from DeWalt; however, never had any problems
with the original one.

Lew

On 11/18/2013 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You
>>>>> must
>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>
>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to
>> shut down
>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>
>
>
> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>
> Another case of
> > people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
> buying
> > blind eye, wishful confidence.
>
>
> I think you may be FOS.

Ease up, Leon. Mike was referring to the brown out comment, not the
fact that non computer devices don't get a shut down signal.

My UPS by APC will not "brown out" as the battery runs down, it will
shut down instantly with no transient spikes or other damaging activity
when it can no longer supply full power to the UPS outlets.

So I agree with Mike - a ups that doesn't shutdown instantly when unable
to supply full power instead of browning out is nothing I would want
powering any device.




--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 11/18/2013 01:26 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 11/18/2013 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>>
>>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to
>>> shut down
>>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>>
>> Another case of
>> > people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
>> buying
>> > blind eye, wishful confidence.
>>
>>
>> I think you may be FOS.
>
> Ease up, Leon. Mike was referring to the brown out comment, not the
> fact that non computer devices don't get a shut down signal.
>
> My UPS by APC will not "brown out" as the battery runs down, it will
> shut down instantly with no transient spikes or other damaging activity
> when it can no longer supply full power to the UPS outlets.
>
> So I agree with Mike - a ups that doesn't shutdown instantly when unable
> to supply full power instead of browning out is nothing I would want
> powering any device.
>
>
>
>
BTW, an easy way to determine if a UPS shuts down instantly or "browns
out" when there is a power outage is to plug in an incandescent light
into one of the UPS outlets and then uplug the UPS. After the battery
is unable to supply full power, the light should turn off instantly, not
dim over minutes or seconds.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 11/18/2013 09:31 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/18/2013 2:46 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 11/18/2013 01:26 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>>> On 11/18/2013 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You
>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>>>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>>>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>>>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>>>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>>>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>>>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>>>>
>>>>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to
>>>>> shut down
>>>>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>>>> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>>>> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>>>>
>>>> Another case of
>>>> > people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
>>>> buying
>>>> > blind eye, wishful confidence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think you may be FOS.
>>>
>>> Ease up, Leon. Mike was referring to the brown out comment, not the
>>> fact that non computer devices don't get a shut down signal.
>>>
>>> My UPS by APC will not "brown out" as the battery runs down, it will
>>> shut down instantly with no transient spikes or other damaging activity
>>> when it can no longer supply full power to the UPS outlets.
>>>
>>> So I agree with Mike - a ups that doesn't shutdown instantly when unable
>>> to supply full power instead of browning out is nothing I would want
>>> powering any device.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> BTW, an easy way to determine if a UPS shuts down instantly or "browns
>> out" when there is a power outage is to plug in an incandescent light
>> into one of the UPS outlets and then uplug the UPS. After the battery
>> is unable to supply full power, the light should turn off instantly, not
>> dim over minutes or seconds.
>>
>>
> I would be looking for an easier way at the store before I bought one.
>
>
APC - no problems.

http://www.apc.com/site/products/index.cfm/homeoffice-nam/?segmentID=1



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> My Makita batteries don't last long at all. I don't use the drills
> anymore because I got tired of buying batteries.

There was a bad batch of 18V LiON batteries some time ago. Lots of
complaints on Amazon about it. Mine are about 3 years old and getting
weak, but that's about the lifetime of LiON batteries anyway.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 11/18/2013 3:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
>>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>>
>>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to shut down
>>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>
> All but the most low-end uninterruptable power supplies have a notification
> means. Anything from relay contacts to a USB port, depending on generation and
> capability.
>
> If the DVR has both a USB host port and UPS software on-board, then it should
> be able to respond to the UPS low-time notification and initiate an
> orderly power down procedure. I've read that some Tivo's will support
> a standard USB HID UPS device, but have no personal experience with that.

Understood this is not rocket science, but please tell me which
satelite/dvr will have all the features that you mentioned above. Lots
of if's you mention.

On 11/18/2013 2:26 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 11/18/2013 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>>
>>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to
>>> shut down
>>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>>
>> Another case of
>> > people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
>> buying
>> > blind eye, wishful confidence.
>>
>>
>> I think you may be FOS.
>
> Ease up, Leon. Mike was referring to the brown out comment, not the
> fact that non computer devices don't get a shut down signal.

I missed that part in his comment. I was talking about a UPS shutting
down a Satelite/DVR, I thought he was too.

>
> My UPS by APC will not "brown out" as the battery runs down, it will
> shut down instantly with no transient spikes or other damaging activity
> when it can no longer supply full power to the UPS outlets.
>
> So I agree with Mike - a ups that doesn't shutdown instantly when unable
> to supply full power instead of browning out is nothing I would want
> powering any device.

Given the choice neither would I. Until this conversation I was unaware
that such a feature existed.

On 11/17/13 12:38 PM, Mike wrote:

> Lamps? No, flipping the switch takes care of that just like the timer
> on the charger does. Everything in the entertainment center is
> connected to a power strip.

Chargers also present a small power drain even when no batteries are
present. My two Milwaukee chargers (NiMH and Li) draw about 10 watts
when unloaded. Put them on a timer for 1 hour a day and the trickle
charge will keep the batteries up if needed and you can save a few watts
(over the losses in powering the timer) and maybe help pay for a new
battery after several years. Of course it makes no financial sense to
buy a new timer, but if you are like me and have several just sitting in
a 'junk' box on a shelf....


-Bruce

On 19 Nov 2013 06:06:39 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> My Makita batteries don't last long at all. I don't use the drills
>> anymore because I got tired of buying batteries.
>
>There was a bad batch of 18V LiON batteries some time ago. Lots of
>complaints on Amazon about it. Mine are about 3 years old and getting
>weak, but that's about the lifetime of LiON batteries anyway.

My Makitas are NiCd.

At my PPoE we had some "new" batteries that were three years old
(stock for a widget that was *way* late to market). We grabbed a
bunch of them and did a life test. They were still better than 90%
capacity. It's not time that kills LiIons (so much), rather charge
cycles. Unlike NiCds, they really do have a long shelf life.

On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:


>
> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you leave
> the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>

We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock out
the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a UPS.
Problem solved.

On 11/16/2013 9:31 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>
>> OK, for the record, A Festool 14.4v Li-Ion 3 amp battery weighs 19.8
>> oz.
>> A Makita 12 volt 2.6 amp Hi MH weighs 24.5 oz.
>>
>> A Bosch, half size in appearance, 18 volt Li-ion 1.3 amp battery
>> weighs 11.7 oz.
>
> That clarifies a lot. It seems Makita is loading their batteries with
> weight - to make the user feel more manly...
>
>
>


Yeah that's it. LOL

On 11/16/2013 9:29 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> I'll have to say that I have never seen a "full sized" Li-ion battery
>> then, although the 15.4v 3.0 amp Li-ion battery on my Festool drill
>> is at least double the size of the 18 v Li-ion on my Bosch impact.
>> Both are feather weights compares to the 12 v Makita 2.6 amp Ni Metal
>
> Sorry Leon - perhaps a matter of terminology. My drill came with the half
> sized LiON batteries. I think they were around 1.sumptin amps. I got them
> upgraded for free under warranty to the 3.sumptin amp batteries. The little
> ones were lighter but they sucked. The bigger ones don't seem to be that
> much different from the other battery technologies. Maybe I just don't feel
> it, but that's how it seems to me.
>


I noticed that The Festool Drill that I have now comes with a 4.2 amp
battery... ;~(. 3 amp lasts long enough and I still don't use my Makita
or Bosch impact drives any more. A dew weeks ago I was driving 5/16"x4"
lag screws with my Festool drill, In the non clutch setting and in the
high speed setting I had to grab the battery with my left hand to keep
the drill from twisting my right hand off when the screw fully seated in
the stud. Yes I did predrill but only 3" deep and part of that was
sheet rock. I still find it amazing that I have not yet stalled the
drill except when the electronic clutch is engaged.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 22:52:42 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/17/2013 9:25 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> After about a year, DeWalt issued a recall of the charger due to over
>> heating problems.
>>
>> Got a new changer from DeWalt; however, never had any problems
>> with the original one.
>>
>> Lew
>I wonder if it is the same one in the Boeing 787

Probably not. Lew said he never had any problems with his. Mr. B has
had a few. ;-)

On 11/16/2013 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>
>> What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
>> each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
>> That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
>> end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
>> the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
>> it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
>> down.
>
> How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?
>


I would think that would not be difficult. In my automotive days and
when you could open the cells to add water you could put a probe down
inside each cell of a 12 volt car battery and get the voltage of each
cell. It is cumulative but when you move up a cell and the voltage does
not change the cell is dead.

On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 14:38:37 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 11/17/2013 11:42 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>>> dpb wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>>>>>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>>>>>>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>>>>>>> forget to unplug it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
>>>>>> much confidence in them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>>>>>>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>>>>>>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>>>>>>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>>>>>>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>>>>>>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>>>>>>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>>>>>>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>>>>>>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>>>>>>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>>>>>>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
>>>>>> not all
>>>>>> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
>>>>>> older way
>>>>>> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
>>>>>> publicized if it were really true?
>>>>>
>>>>> It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
>>>>> spark. ;~)
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
>>>>> the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
>>>>> time is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
>>>> years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
>>>> are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
>>>> as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
>>>> their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
>>>> under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
>>>> Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
>>>> circuitry to prevent either condition.
>>>
>>> R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
>>> LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
>>> have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would piss me
>>> off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(
>>
>> True enough. A lot of it was self inflicted though.
>
> A lot was cause by a premature rollout of LiIon, but not all. Again,
> any time you pack that much energy into a small space, you're asking
> for trouble.
>
>>> Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
>>> to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
>>> has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
>>> in my garage, either.
>>>
>>>> I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
>>>> and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
>>>> hardly get warm from use or recharge.
>>>
>>> How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
>>> mitigated by the color of the plastic.
>>
>> Around 1.5 hours. I didn't say the color mattered. However, you could
>> get more or less heat depending on how the manufacturer chose to handle
>> the charge cycle. I mentioned the brand in the interest of full disclosure.
>
> The reason is that it's only .7C. Chargers (batteries) running at 4C
> will get hot. It's not the brand. It's the physics.

I understand that.

>
>>>> However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
>>>> suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
>>>> I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.
>>>
>>> Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?
>>>
>> Lamps? No, flipping the switch takes care of that just like the timer
>> on the charger does. Everything in the entertainment center is
>> connected to a power strip.
>
> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you leave
> the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>

Well, everything but the DVR. If I did, it would reset its clock, but
wouldn't record the couple of shows I watch.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 19:58:53 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My last
>> rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90 day warranty.
>
>No Dewally, no need for Primecell, yet.
>
>Since I switched to Makita (again, after 25 years), it's amazing how I
>don't even think about cordless batteries any longer.

My Makita batteries don't last long at all. I don't use the drills
anymore because I got tired of buying batteries.

On 11/18/2013 6:07 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>
> No - I can't. I don't know that DVR's can receive a signal from a UPS. I
> was (maybe mistakenly) speaking of how a UPS typically associates with a
> computer. Most provide a signalling for low battery to allow for the
> computer to shutdown.

Exactly, however the major satellite providers don't offer this feature
but if they could that would mean that even a crappy UPS would work just
fine even though it might not offer protection from it's won from brown
out.


>
>>
>> Another case of
>>> people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
>>> buying blind eye, wishful confidence.
>>
>>
>> I think you may be FOS.
>
> What? Me?
>
First Offering Sarcasm. ;~)

On 11/16/2013 6:31 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
>>> I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
>>> Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
>>> I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
>>> Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
>>> In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat
>>>
>>
>>
>> My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
>> and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
>> what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
>> complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
>> calibrated to each cell in the battery.
>
> It's no not so much calibration as it is protection. LiIon has a
> nasty habit of bursting into flames if it's not treated well. Note
> that all batteries have this problem to one degree or another. Any
> time you store that much energy in a small place, bad things happen
> when you let it loose suddenly.
>
> The LiIon chargers are more complex than NiMH (which are more
> complicated than NiCd) but in this age of ICs, it's all pretty simple
> and cheap. Laptops do even more because they're doing a lot more
> charge (as in coulombs) management in the laptop itself. The laptop
> requires a "gas gauge" to do its thing maximizing run time. This
> isn't true for a drill, so calibration isn't needed.
>
What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low end
chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than the
pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete it while
bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts down.

--
Jeff

On 11/15/2013 10:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
>> batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
>> 18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
>> Li-ion.
>
> Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
> Leon.
>
>

OK, for the record, A Festool 14.4v Li-Ion 3 amp battery weighs 19.8 oz.

A Makita 12 volt 2.6 amp Hi MH weighs 24.5 oz.

A Bosch, half size in appearance, 18 volt Li-ion 1.3 amp battery weighs
11.7 oz.

So the half size Bosch is approximately 60% the weight of the full size
Festool battery and the full size Festool battery is 80% the weight of
the similar sized Ni MH Makita 12 volt battery.


FWIW the Festool battery appears to be equal in size if not slightly
smaller than the Makita battery. The Festool battery has no stem that
engages the handle of the drill as the Makita battery has.

On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>
>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>> forget to unplug it.
>
> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
> much confidence in them.
>
>>
>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>
> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are not all
> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some older way
> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
> publicized if it were really true?

It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
spark. ;~)

I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
time is.

On 11/16/2013 7:58 PM, Swingman wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My last
>> rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90 day warranty.
>
> No Dewally, no need for Primecell, yet.
>
> Since I switched to Makita (again, after 25 years), it's amazing how I
> don't even think about cordless batteries any longer.
>


Seriously, I replaced that prime cell rebuild 5 months after they
rebuilt it, and with a new one from Batteries Plus. Came with a 1 year
warranty. There is one near you, Beechnut and 610 when the time comes.

However the Li-Ion may have to come from Makita.

On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat
>



Where to start...

If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non Li-ion.


As far as brand, you can't go wrong with Makita, one of the few that
still makes a quality tool. The green vs. the white Makita tools is the
better choice.

Are you looking for a drill driver or an impact or one of each?

A drill/driver is going to require you to hold on to the drill and brace
for the torque. On the other side of the coin is the impact that
typically had 4 times the torque of the similar voltage driver but does
not transfer the torque back to you.

On 11/15/2013 8:26 PM, patrick wrote:
> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat
>
Lithium is the only way to go.

Try a 10 or 12v model they are pretty powerful.
I have a hitaci, I would recommend it for driving screws as I bought the
drill and impact. I use the impact for driving.. light and very nice.

The drill is light duty.

Or Milwakee, I have not seen dewalt really come to the table on Lithium,
and smaller units.



--
Jeff

On 11/16/2013 10:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>
>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>> forget to unplug it.
>
> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
> much confidence in them.
>
>>
>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>
> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are not all
> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some older way
> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
> publicized if it were really true?
>
>>
>> I don't know what the difference really is but there does seem to be a
>> fundamental behavior in that they have a much higher probability of
>> thermal runaway occurring.
>
> No, it doesn't.
>
>>
>> $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...
>
> Fair enough.
>
Especially if he has old stock of nimh or nicads that he wants to push out.

--
Jeff

On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
> I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
> Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
> I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
> Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
> In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat
>


My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
calibrated to each cell in the battery.

On 11/17/2013 11:42 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> dpb wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>>>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>>>>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>>>>> forget to unplug it.
>>>>
>>>> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
>>>> much confidence in them.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>>>>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>>>>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>>>>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>>>>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>>>>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>>>>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>>>>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>>>>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>>>>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>>>>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>>>>
>>>> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
>>>> not all
>>>> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
>>>> older way
>>>> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
>>>> publicized if it were really true?
>>>
>>> It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
>>> spark. ;~)
>>>
>>> I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
>>> the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
>>> time is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
>> years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
>> are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
>> as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
>> their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
>> under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
>> Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
>> circuitry to prevent either condition.
>
> R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
> LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
> have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would piss me
> off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(

True enough. A lot of it was self inflicted though.

>
> Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
> to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
> has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
> in my garage, either.
>
>> I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
>> and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
>> hardly get warm from use or recharge.
>
> How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
> mitigated by the color of the plastic.

Around 1.5 hours. I didn't say the color mattered. However, you could
get more or less heat depending on how the manufacturer chose to handle
the charge cycle. I mentioned the brand in the interest of full disclosure.

>
>> However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
>> suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
>> I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.
>
> Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?
>
Lamps? No, flipping the switch takes care of that just like the timer
on the charger does. Everything in the entertainment center is
connected to a power strip.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>
>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to shut down
>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>
>
>
>Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.

All but the most low-end uninterruptable power supplies have a notification
means. Anything from relay contacts to a USB port, depending on generation and
capability.

If the DVR has both a USB host port and UPS software on-board, then it should
be able to respond to the UPS low-time notification and initiate an
orderly power down procedure. I've read that some Tivo's will support
a standard USB HID UPS device, but have no personal experience with that.

In any case, a well-designed UPS won't provide a low line voltage to any
protected device(s). Unfortunately, there are a glut of cheap, poorly
crafted UPS devices available on the market.

On 11/17/2013 7:16 PM, Leon wrote:

>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock out
>> the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a UPS.
>> Problem solved.
>
>
>
> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS to
> take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the house
> for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended period of
> time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR permanently freaked
> out because of the low voltage coming from the UPS as it was running out
> of back up power. He created his own brown out machine. The whole
> tuner/DVR had to be replaced.

Thanks for making me feel confident. ;)

On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>>
>>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>>> forget to unplug it.
>>
>> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
>> much confidence in them.
>>
>>>
>>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>>
>> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
>> not all
>> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
>> older way
>> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
>> publicized if it were really true?
>
> It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
> spark. ;~)
>
> I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
> the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
> time is.
>
>
>
>
I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
circuitry to prevent either condition.

I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
hardly get warm from use or recharge.

However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.

On 11/18/2013 2:46 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 11/18/2013 01:26 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 11/18/2013 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You
>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>>>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>>>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>>>>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>>>>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>>>>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>>>>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>>>>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>>>>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>>>>
>>>> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to
>>>> shut down
>>>> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
>>> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
>>> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.
>>>
>>> Another case of
>>> > people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
>>> buying
>>> > blind eye, wishful confidence.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you may be FOS.
>>
>> Ease up, Leon. Mike was referring to the brown out comment, not the
>> fact that non computer devices don't get a shut down signal.
>>
>> My UPS by APC will not "brown out" as the battery runs down, it will
>> shut down instantly with no transient spikes or other damaging activity
>> when it can no longer supply full power to the UPS outlets.
>>
>> So I agree with Mike - a ups that doesn't shutdown instantly when unable
>> to supply full power instead of browning out is nothing I would want
>> powering any device.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> BTW, an easy way to determine if a UPS shuts down instantly or "browns
> out" when there is a power outage is to plug in an incandescent light
> into one of the UPS outlets and then uplug the UPS. After the battery
> is unable to supply full power, the light should turn off instantly, not
> dim over minutes or seconds.
>
>
I would be looking for an easier way at the store before I bought one.

On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you leave
>> the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>
>
> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock out
> the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a UPS.
> Problem solved.



Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS to
take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the house
for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended period of
time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR permanently freaked
out because of the low voltage coming from the UPS as it was running out
of back up power. He created his own brown out machine. The whole
tuner/DVR had to be replaced.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> dpb wrote:
>>>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>>>
>>>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>>>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>>>> forget to unplug it.
>>>
>>> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
>>> much confidence in them.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>>>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>>>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>>>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>>>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>>>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>>>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>>>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>>>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>>>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>>>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>>>
>>> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
>>> not all
>>> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
>>> older way
>>> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
>>> publicized if it were really true?
>>
>> It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
>> spark. ;~)
>>
>> I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
>> the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
>> time is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
>years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
>are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
>as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
>their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
>under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
>Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
>circuitry to prevent either condition.

R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would piss me
off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(

Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
in my garage, either.

>I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
>and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
>hardly get warm from use or recharge.

How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
mitigated by the color of the plastic.

>However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
>suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
>I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.

Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?

I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in t=
hose bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery pac=
ks) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go th=
rough a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the=
heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged=
in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge=
. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge f=
unction that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective=
to an intelligent charger? =20
Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way=
to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithiu=
m ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me t=
o keep using the drill.
Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries t=
hat have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the s=
ame thing?=20
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent p=
rice. Thanks in advance, Pat

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
>> I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
>> Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
>> I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
>> Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
>> In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat
>>
>
>
>My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
>and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
>what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
>complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
>calibrated to each cell in the battery.

It's no not so much calibration as it is protection. LiIon has a
nasty habit of bursting into flames if it's not treated well. Note
that all batteries have this problem to one degree or another. Any
time you store that much energy in a small place, bad things happen
when you let it loose suddenly.

The LiIon chargers are more complex than NiMH (which are more
complicated than NiCd) but in this age of ICs, it's all pretty simple
and cheap. Laptops do even more because they're doing a lot more
charge (as in coulombs) management in the laptop itself. The laptop
requires a "gas gauge" to do its thing maximizing run time. This
isn't true for a drill, so calibration isn't needed.

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:26:41 -0800 (PST), patrick
<[email protected]> wrote:

>As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat

I love my Bosch 12V and 18V drills, drivers, and Impactors. Actually,
I have two 18V drills and Impactors (on sale they were cheaper than
the batteries).

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 14:38:37 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/17/2013 11:42 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> dpb wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>>>>>>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
>>>>>> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
>>>>>> forget to unplug it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
>>>>> much confidence in them.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
>>>>>> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
>>>>>> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
>>>>>> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
>>>>>> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
>>>>>> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
>>>>>> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
>>>>>> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
>>>>>> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
>>>>>> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
>>>>>> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
>>>>> not all
>>>>> that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
>>>>> older way
>>>>> of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
>>>>> publicized if it were really true?
>>>>
>>>> It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
>>>> spark. ;~)
>>>>
>>>> I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
>>>> the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
>>>> time is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
>>> years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
>>> are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
>>> as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
>>> their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
>>> under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
>>> Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
>>> circuitry to prevent either condition.
>>
>> R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
>> LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
>> have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would piss me
>> off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(
>
>True enough. A lot of it was self inflicted though.

A lot was cause by a premature rollout of LiIon, but not all. Again,
any time you pack that much energy into a small space, you're asking
for trouble.

>> Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
>> to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
>> has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
>> in my garage, either.
>>
>>> I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
>>> and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
>>> hardly get warm from use or recharge.
>>
>> How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
>> mitigated by the color of the plastic.
>
>Around 1.5 hours. I didn't say the color mattered. However, you could
>get more or less heat depending on how the manufacturer chose to handle
>the charge cycle. I mentioned the brand in the interest of full disclosure.

The reason is that it's only .7C. Chargers (batteries) running at 4C
will get hot. It's not the brand. It's the physics.

>>> However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
>>> suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
>>> I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.
>>
>> Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?
>>
>Lamps? No, flipping the switch takes care of that just like the timer
>on the charger does. Everything in the entertainment center is
>connected to a power strip.

Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you leave
the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
love resetting clocks. ;-)

On Friday, November 15, 2013 3:26:41 PM UTC-10, patrick wrote:
> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/l=
ight duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18=
v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the=
feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wo=
bbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a d=
ecent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat

Hi Pat,
I use the Dewalt 12 volt max Drill/driver and impact wrench for work and t=
he 12 volt max impact driver for home use and they put out. Although not d=
esigned for it the impact wrench will handle 5/8 bolts with no problem. =20

You definitely want to stick with Li-ion because they hold their charge for=
a long time and will be ready to go when you need them. Plus they are so =
light and compact that I can carry the tools and spare batteries with less =
weight than one Makita 18 volt drill.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:40:22 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>woodchucker wrote:
>
>> What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
>> each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
>> That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
>> end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
>> the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
>> it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
>> down.
>
>How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?

You put a chip across each cell, often in the pack.

On 11/16/2013 5:31 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
>>> I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
>>> Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
>>> I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
>>> Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
>>> In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat
>>>
>>
>>
>> My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
>> and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
>> what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
>> complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
>> calibrated to each cell in the battery.
>
> It's no not so much calibration as it is protection. LiIon has a
> nasty habit of bursting into flames if it's not treated well. Note
> that all batteries have this problem to one degree or another. Any
> time you store that much energy in a small place, bad things happen
> when you let it loose suddenly.
>
> The LiIon chargers are more complex than NiMH (which are more
> complicated than NiCd) but in this age of ICs, it's all pretty simple
> and cheap. Laptops do even more because they're doing a lot more
> charge (as in coulombs) management in the laptop itself. The laptop
> requires a "gas gauge" to do its thing maximizing run time. This
> isn't true for a drill, so calibration isn't needed.
>


Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My
last rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90
day warranty.

http://www.primecell.com/qli-Ion.htm

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:04:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
>> batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
>> 18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
>> Li-ion.

>Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
>Leon.

Well, the18v Li-ion are lighter than the other 18v batteries, but not
enough so that he won't feel the weight of them. As suggested, I have
to agree that the 12v tools (of any battery type) are much lighter
than their 18v brethren and that's what I'd recommend in this
instance.

Of course, the only real solution to this problem is for the OP to go
to the store and find out for himself. It's his arms that will answer
the question of what to buy.

patrick wrote:
> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for
> med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like
> holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go
> online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that
> between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the
> bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and
> impact driver). TIA Pat

I don't think the battery chemestry is going to make that big of a
difference Pat. I'd suggest you go with a smaller voltage drill. Big
difference in the bulkiness and balance of a 12v drill compared to an 18v.
You won't go wrong with any of the name brands for light to medium use.
Hell - you won't go wrong with Harbor Freight for light to medium work.
And - the price will be a hell of a lot less.

What I've started using more and more - but simply for running in screws, is
a little 3.4v driver. It's all the power necessary for most things, is a
nimble as can be, weighs nothing at all, and fits in all kinds of small
places. I don't have drill bits for mine, but they do make them. You'd
have to buy the 1/4" shank bits because it does not have a chuck. But these
days - I grab it and only go for my 18v for really tough stuff. This little
thing is a winner.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
> batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
> 18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
> Li-ion.

Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
Leon.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I don't know what the difference really is but there does seem to be a
fundamental behavior in that they have a much higher probability of
thermal runaway occurring.

$0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

Leon wrote:

> I'll have to say that I have never seen a "full sized" Li-ion battery
> then, although the 15.4v 3.0 amp Li-ion battery on my Festool drill
> is at least double the size of the 18 v Li-ion on my Bosch impact.
> Both are feather weights compares to the 12 v Makita 2.6 amp Ni Metal

Sorry Leon - perhaps a matter of terminology. My drill came with the half
sized LiON batteries. I think they were around 1.sumptin amps. I got them
upgraded for free under warranty to the 3.sumptin amp batteries. The little
ones were lighter but they sucked. The bigger ones don't seem to be that
much different from the other battery technologies. Maybe I just don't feel
it, but that's how it seems to me.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:


> OK, for the record, A Festool 14.4v Li-Ion 3 amp battery weighs 19.8
> oz.
> A Makita 12 volt 2.6 amp Hi MH weighs 24.5 oz.
>
> A Bosch, half size in appearance, 18 volt Li-ion 1.3 amp battery
> weighs 11.7 oz.

That clarifies a lot. It seems Makita is loading their batteries with
weight - to make the user feel more manly...



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

dpb wrote:
> On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
>> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...
>
> I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
> overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
> forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.

>
> Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
> started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
> dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
> for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
> looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
> NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
> didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
> discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
> nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
> had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
> unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?

>
> I don't know what the difference really is but there does seem to be a
> fundamental behavior in that they have a much higher probability of
> thermal runaway occurring.

No, it doesn't.

>
> $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

Fair enough.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

> What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
> each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
> That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
> end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
> the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
> it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
> down.

How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

> I noticed that The Festool Drill that I have now comes with a 4.2 amp
> battery... ;~(. 3 amp lasts long enough and I still don't use my
> Makita or Bosch impact drives any more. A dew weeks ago I was
> driving 5/16"x4" lag screws with my Festool drill, In the non clutch
> setting and in the high speed setting I had to grab the battery with
> my left hand to keep the drill from twisting my right hand off when
> the screw fully seated in the stud. Yes I did predrill but only 3"
> deep and part of that was sheet rock. I still find it amazing that I
> have not yet stalled the drill except when the electronic clutch is
> engaged.

Hey - weren't you supposed to send that drill up to me for an honest
evaluation?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

> I would think that would not be difficult. In my automotive days and
> when you could open the cells to add water you could put a probe down
> inside each cell of a 12 volt car battery and get the voltage of each
> cell. It is cumulative but when you move up a cell and the voltage
> does not change the cell is dead.

Except that in those days (and even today if you know how to do it), you
could access each cell in a series scheme. Not so with a charger that has
contacts that do not wire to each cell. Methinks there is much more
smoke-mirrors-and-lights going on in groups like this than there is actual
factual information about stuff like this.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:
> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>> UPS. Problem solved.
>
>
>
> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.

Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to shut down
the system at the point where power was getting marginal. Another case of
people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply buying
blind eye, wishful confidence.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

> Generally they are not just connected in series.
> Nicads and nimh were, but not lion or lipo.
>
>
> The better batteries have prongs for the drill, or whatever
> and another set for monitoring the cells. Charging can be done on the
> normal prongs, but monitoring is done on the second set. They are not
> monitoring for heat like nicad and nimh, they are monitoring for
> voltage. They need to be close, and they can't exceed the recommended
> cells voltage. Same with depletion of batteries, they can't be drawn
> down to low or they may not charge again, or worse. So the
> manufacturers have handled that. You'll see all the lion/lipo units
> stop when voltage drops. So if you are drawing a lot of amps it will
> cut out. let it cool and the battery bounces back a bit and you can
> continue... but it's a matter of time b4 it stops running and needs
> charging.
> Even the cheapies have something, probably not as good. Take a look at
> your pack, you will see another set of connectors.
>
> I love the Lithium technology the drills are always ready. No quick
> discharge like the nicad/nimhs had.


Very good explanation of things I was not aware of - thank you Jeff. I was
well aware of the drop off characteristics of LiON, but did not know the
underlying logic. I too love LiON, and have had no problems at all with
it - either in my laptops or in my drills.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
> down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
> that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.

No - I can't. I don't know that DVR's can receive a signal from a UPS. I
was (maybe mistakenly) speaking of how a UPS typically associates with a
computer. Most provide a signalling for low battery to allow for the
computer to shutdown.

>
> Another case of
>> people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
>> buying blind eye, wishful confidence.
>
>
> I think you may be FOS.

What? Me?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

patrick wrote:
> As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for
> med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like
> holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go
> online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that
> between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the
> bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and
> impact driver). TIA Pat

Milwaukee 12V tools, the impact driver and the screwdriver great, use them
daily in my job. Looking at the drill as the next acquisition.

--
PV

On 11/17/2013 9:25 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> After about a year, DeWalt issued a recall of the charger due to over
> heating problems.
>
> Got a new changer from DeWalt; however, never had any problems
> with the original one.
>
> Lew
I wonder if it is the same one in the Boeing 787

On 11/17/2013 9:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 11/17/2013 5:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you
>>>> leave the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
>>>> love resetting clocks. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock
>>> out the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a
>>> UPS. Problem solved.
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem may not be solved. My BIL had his satellite system on a UPS
>> to take care of the blips then one day when they were away from the
>> house for a few hours because the power had gone out for an extended
>> period of time the UPS went dead and the satellite tuner/DVR
>> permanently freaked out because of the low voltage coming from the
>> UPS as it was running out of back up power. He created his own brown
>> out machine. The whole tuner/DVR had to be replaced.
>
> Crappy UPS in that case. A decent UPS would provide signalling to shut down
> the system at the point where power was getting marginal.
>


Can you name a UPS that will actually do what you said, signal to shut
down the satellite receiver/DVR? I don't know of any satellite DVR's
that actually communicate with a UPS to power down.

Another case of
> people not knowing or caring enough to really understand, and simply
buying
> blind eye, wishful confidence.


I think you may be FOS.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
>and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
>hardly get warm from use or recharge.

I agree with this. From my first rechargeable drill purchased in 1987
to my present one bought four years ago, I've had four different
brands. While most them got warm to the touch when charging, (some
overnight) I've never noticed a problem with excessive overheating.