I'm working on a repair of an old table. the wood is mahogany, the
real stuff. the finish is shellac. I did the repair to the wood parts
and started into the finishing.
I mixed up a batch of shellac from some garnet flakes I had, but it
didn't completely dissolve. the liquid turned the right color, but the
partially softened flakes remained floating around in it, and a test
drop of it remained gummy for days. so off to the store to buy another
$25 ounce of bug spit.
got the new stuff. mixed up a batch. it was completely dissolved in
under an hour. all's good, on with padding. got a few rounds padded on
last night and went out. got in late, went to bed. got up this
morning, went out to the shop. the surface was nice and hard, so I
proceeded with another round. went well, and as I was closing up the
pad in a ziplock baggie and putting the parts in order I noticed that
the jar of shellac has what appears to be solids settling out in the
bottom. hmm... a shake... no change... get a stir stick and give it a
poke. it's like a mass of stiff jelly at the bottom of the jar. I got
it free of the jar bottom and shook it some more, but it doesn't seem
to be wanting to go back into solution.
what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
alcohol for this one...
That jelly is nothing more than undissolved shellac.
When you're dissolving shellac, you have to shake it periodically to
prevent this. Otherwise it will happen most of the time. And the wax
content has nothing to do with it...I always used de-waxed, and this
happened to me plenty of times before when I forget to shake the jar.
The clump at the bottom of the jar *will* eventually dissolve, but it
will take as long as a week to do so.
Barry Lennox wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:33:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >I'm working on a repair of an old table. the wood is mahogany, the
> >real stuff. the finish is shellac. I did the repair to the wood parts
> >and started into the finishing.
>
> snip
>
> >
> >what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
> >guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
> >about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
> >alcohol for this one...
>
> Sounds most odd, never heard of that before. The mix sounds fine, but
> I normally give it a chance to dissolve overnight if possible.
>
> Sounds like contaminated shellac. Get a small quantity of another
> batch and/or from another supplier to try.
thing is,otherwise it's performing just fine. what I gather from the
ancient scripts is that if something is wrong with the shellac itself
it never dries... just gets gooey. what I applied to the table has
dried nice and hard and has done it nice and quickly... it sounds like
a good batch.
> What alcohol are you
> using?
the stuff from the paint store labelled shellac thinner.
>I use either industrial ethanol (96% ethanol, 4 % methanol) or
> else pure methanol, but the latter is a bit toxic, so I only use it
> outdoors.
[email protected] wrote:
> That jelly is nothing more than undissolved shellac.
good to know. it's a bit disconcerting, because the mass in the bottom
is _slightly_ more volume than the dried flakes I started with. sounds
like it has absorbed some alcohol and expanded. if that was wax it
would be a _lot_ of wax.
>
> When you're dissolving shellac, you have to shake it periodically to
> prevent this.
I did shake. unfortunately, garnet is dark enough that it's easy to
miss something like this going on in the bottom of the jar, and the
jelly is sticky enough that once it settles it kinda isolates itself-
it doesn't float around and get agitated, and only has one surface in
contact with the liquid on the top.
> Otherwise it will happen most of the time. And the wax
> content has nothing to do with it...I always used de-waxed, and this
> happened to me plenty of times before when I forget to shake the jar.
>
> The clump at the bottom of the jar *will* eventually dissolve,
good to hear.
> but it
> will take as long as a week to do so.
I dropped a machine nut into the jar to act as an agitator to help
break up the mass when shaking, plus I'm doing a little stirring as
well.
Ed Clarke wrote:
> I can't understand why you bug-parts guys don't invest in a stirring
> hot plate. You can pick them up fairly cheaply on eBay ($25 and up)
> although plain magnetic stirrers are more common. Put your alcohol in
> a flat bottomed jar, drop in the bug parts and a teflon covered magnetic
> bar and close it up. Turn on the stirrer and come back when it's done.
>
> That's what I plan on doing if I ever get my damn bookcase finished.
you know, I've wanted one of those for years. the last time I looked at
them was before ebay and the new price was way out of my budget. I had
kind of given up, though I have kept an eye out at auctions and such.
knowing that I can get one on ebay so inexpensively, I will do just
that. thanks for the heads up.
Patriarch wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in news:ap0sd1hvb5m85u8dmimiuff7e1hfue97m4@
> 4ax.com:...
>
> There are uses for the shellac wax, but at this hour, I cannot remember
> what they are, or if they have application in woodworking. Woodturner's
> friction polish, perhaps?
>
Not long ago I noted a label on some fruit inthe grocery store that
said it had been sealed with shellac wax. I had heard of wax being
used on fruit before but always assumed it was paraffin.
I do not recall what sort of fruit, maybe apples. The object of the
waxing, I suppose, is to reduce dehydration or to shed beads from
condensation to reduce mildew on the skin. Apples will keep fresh
for months stored in CO2.
--
FF
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Not long ago I noted a label on some fruit inthe grocery store that
> said it had been sealed with shellac wax. I had heard of wax being
> used on fruit before but always assumed it was paraffin.
For fruits that have been treated with applied pesticides, the
washing-off process degrades the protective ability of the skin
significantly. The shellac wax is applied to help preserve the fruit
and has the added bonus of making them shiny and appealing to those
attracted to shiny objects.
Shellac wax is really hard stuff, comparable to carnuba wax. I still
have about a millenium's supply from when I used to sell this stuff (my
goodness, I realize I've been outta that biz for 4 years and there are
still a handful of youse who remember). I mix it with turps and
beeswax and use it primarly for waxing handplaces, saws, auger bit lead
screws, etc.
O'Deen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:33:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>...I noticed that
>the jar of shellac has what appears to be solids settling out in the
>bottom. hmm... a shake... no change... get a stir stick and give it a
>poke. it's like a mass of stiff jelly at the bottom of the jar. I got
>it free of the jar bottom and shook it some more, but it doesn't seem
>to be wanting to go back into solution.
Could it be wax?
--
Chuck Taylor
http://home.hiwaay.net/~taylorc/contact/
On 2005-07-20, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> That jelly is nothing more than undissolved shellac.
>
> When you're dissolving shellac, you have to shake it periodically to
> prevent this. Otherwise it will happen most of the time. And the wax
> content has nothing to do with it...I always used de-waxed, and this
> happened to me plenty of times before when I forget to shake the jar.
>
> The clump at the bottom of the jar *will* eventually dissolve, but it
> will take as long as a week to do so.
I can't understand why you bug-parts guys don't invest in a stirring
hot plate. You can pick them up fairly cheaply on eBay ($25 and up)
although plain magnetic stirrers are more common. Put your alcohol in
a flat bottomed jar, drop in the bug parts and a teflon covered magnetic
bar and close it up. Turn on the stirrer and come back when it's done.
That's what I plan on doing if I ever get my damn bookcase finished.
--
I can find no modern furniture that is as well designed and emotionally
satisfying as that made by the Arts and Crafts movement in the early years
of the ast century.
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:48:26 -0500, Hax Planx
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] says...
>
>> got the new stuff. mixed up a batch. it was completely dissolved in
>> under an hour. all's good, on with padding. got a few rounds padded on
>> last night and went out. got in late, went to bed. got up this
>> morning, went out to the shop. the surface was nice and hard, so I
>> proceeded with another round. went well, and as I was closing up the
>> pad in a ziplock baggie and putting the parts in order I noticed that
>> the jar of shellac has what appears to be solids settling out in the
>> bottom. hmm... a shake... no change... get a stir stick and give it a
>> poke. it's like a mass of stiff jelly at the bottom of the jar. I got
>> it free of the jar bottom and shook it some more, but it doesn't seem
>> to be wanting to go back into solution.
>>
>> what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
>> guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
>> about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
>> alcohol for this one...
>
>How sure are you that it was dissolved? Even in hot weather I can't
>imagine it dissolving in an hour. My guess is it wasn't dissolved and
>that is what you are seeing.
it didn't show up until the next day. the shellac really did dissolve
in roughly an hour....
[email protected] says...
> got the new stuff. mixed up a batch. it was completely dissolved in
> under an hour. all's good, on with padding. got a few rounds padded on
> last night and went out. got in late, went to bed. got up this
> morning, went out to the shop. the surface was nice and hard, so I
> proceeded with another round. went well, and as I was closing up the
> pad in a ziplock baggie and putting the parts in order I noticed that
> the jar of shellac has what appears to be solids settling out in the
> bottom. hmm... a shake... no change... get a stir stick and give it a
> poke. it's like a mass of stiff jelly at the bottom of the jar. I got
> it free of the jar bottom and shook it some more, but it doesn't seem
> to be wanting to go back into solution.
>
> what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
> guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
> about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
> alcohol for this one...
How sure are you that it was dissolved? Even in hot weather I can't
imagine it dissolving in an hour. My guess is it wasn't dissolved and
that is what you are seeing.
[email protected] says...
> it didn't show up until the next day. the shellac really did dissolve
> in roughly an hour....
It sounds impossible to me, even if it was a 1/2# cut. It took two days
for a 2# cut to dissolve for me with the average temperature over 90 and
I shook it every time I remembered. It really couldn't be anything
else. The undissolved flakes do turn into a mass of goo on the bottom
and I think you just didn't notice it at first.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
> guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
> about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
> alcohol for this one...
>
Whose shellac are you buying? I've never had a problem with the material
from Jeff Jewitt, Ron Hock, or the late attempt at worldwide market
domination that was Paddy O'Deen's quest...
Patriarch
[email protected] wrote in news:ap0sd1hvb5m85u8dmimiuff7e1hfue97m4@
4ax.com:
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:58:18 -0500, Chuck Taylor
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:33:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>...I noticed that
>>>the jar of shellac has what appears to be solids settling out in the
>>>bottom. hmm... a shake... no change... get a stir stick and give it a
>>>poke. it's like a mass of stiff jelly at the bottom of the jar. I got
>>>it free of the jar bottom and shook it some more, but it doesn't seem
>>>to be wanting to go back into solution.
>>
>>
>>Could it be wax?
>
>
> I'm thinking it must be. the can didn't say dewaxed, and the product I
> used off of the top performed fine. the last batch I bought, that
> finally expired in the shop after a couple of years of storage, was
> dewaxed from ron hock. it didn't have anything settling out on the
> bottom.
>
> thing is, I'm no expert on shellac- I didn't know what to expect the
> wax to look like. I didn't expect it to look like jello.
>
If it didn't SAY dewaxed, there's little reason to believe that it is.
If there is to be no top coat, waxy shellac is just fine.
Or you can decant it, by carefully pouring the clearer top liquid off
into another container.
There are uses for the shellac wax, but at this hour, I cannot remember
what they are, or if they have application in woodworking. Woodturner's
friction polish, perhaps?
Patriarch
"Odeen" <[email protected]> wrote in news:1121895070.905953.8790
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> Not long ago I noted a label on some fruit inthe grocery store that
>> said it had been sealed with shellac wax. I had heard of wax being
>> used on fruit before but always assumed it was paraffin.
>
> For fruits that have been treated with applied pesticides, the
> washing-off process degrades the protective ability of the skin
> significantly. The shellac wax is applied to help preserve the fruit
> and has the added bonus of making them shiny and appealing to those
> attracted to shiny objects.
>
> Shellac wax is really hard stuff, comparable to carnuba wax. I still
> have about a millenium's supply from when I used to sell this stuff (my
> goodness, I realize I've been outta that biz for 4 years and there are
> still a handful of youse who remember). I mix it with turps and
> beeswax and use it primarly for waxing handplaces, saws, auger bit lead
> screws, etc.
>
> O'Deen
>
>
I was beginning to think you had gone on a 12 step program, regarding the
wReck.
Welcome back, Paddy. We've been missing your experience & wit.
Patriarch
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:58:18 -0500, Chuck Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:33:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>...I noticed that
>>the jar of shellac has what appears to be solids settling out in the
>>bottom. hmm... a shake... no change... get a stir stick and give it a
>>poke. it's like a mass of stiff jelly at the bottom of the jar. I got
>>it free of the jar bottom and shook it some more, but it doesn't seem
>>to be wanting to go back into solution.
>
>
>Could it be wax?
I'm thinking it must be. the can didn't say dewaxed, and the product I
used off of the top performed fine. the last batch I bought, that
finally expired in the shop after a couple of years of storage, was
dewaxed from ron hock. it didn't have anything settling out on the
bottom.
thing is, I'm no expert on shellac- I didn't know what to expect the
wax to look like. I didn't expect it to look like jello.
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:33:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>I'm working on a repair of an old table. the wood is mahogany, the
>real stuff. the finish is shellac. I did the repair to the wood parts
>and started into the finishing.
snip
>
>what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
>guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
>about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
>alcohol for this one...
Sounds most odd, never heard of that before. The mix sounds fine, but
I normally give it a chance to dissolve overnight if possible.
Sounds like contaminated shellac. Get a small quantity of another
batch and/or from another supplier to try. What alcohol are you
using? I use either industrial ethanol (96% ethanol, 4 % methanol) or
else pure methanol, but the latter is a bit toxic, so I only use it
outdoors.
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:14:22 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
><snip>
>> what gives? was I just way wrong on my mix proportions? I just sort of
>> guesstimated, an inch or so of flakes in the bottom, the jar full to
>> about 3 inches with alcohol. I even went and bought a fresh can of
>> alcohol for this one...
>>
>
>Whose shellac are you buying? I've never had a problem with the material
>from Jeff Jewitt, Ron Hock, or the late attempt at worldwide market
>domination that was Paddy O'Deen's quest...
behlen.
>
>Patriarch