Who said Marples chisels are any good???

that they are designated for use with a mallet and occasional hammer blows?

dave

[email protected] wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>guess you didn't read the insert that came with your Protouch?
>
>
> I thought that I had, but I didn't find them to be the same quality as
> my blue chips so I relegated them to coarser work. What did I miss?
> Dave in Fairfax

I can't buy Sears chisels in the sizes I want and who would expect them
to be the equivalent of their tools from 30 years ago anyway?

Peace, Chuck.

dave

Conan the Librarian wrote:

> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>
>>I wasn't intending to chop deep mortises without getting dedicated
>>mortising chisels, but what I'm trying to explain in this thread is that
>>by cutting into red oak four times less than 3/16" deep, for testing the
>>chisel, I found the edge destroyed. my Sears did the same thing and
>>came away none the worse for wear. I don't intended to use a beveled
>>edge chisel to chop inch deep mortises, but I should be able to tap the
>>chisel into the wood to "mark" it.
>
>
> Fine. Buy Sears chisels then. Some of us will continue to use our
> Marples chisels. And guess what? We will post about our own
> experiences with them. And guess what? We might not agree with you.
> Get used to it.
>
>
>>Thanks for the snide comment.
>
>
> I'm glad you enjoyed it. I assumed that you must, seeing how often
> you you beg for it.
>
>
>>I didn't say I had the Bluechip chisels. they are Protouch.
>
>
> I know that. My mistake to include the words "Blue Chip" in my
> previous post. But I have Blue Chips. And guess what? They're made
> by the same company. And guess what? They perform about as well as I
> would expect for a set that runs less than $30.
>
>
>>Again, you aren't reading my posts closely. I know, I know, my posts
>>don't deserve any attention...
>
>
> Not nearly as much as you seem to think they do.
>
>
> Chuck Vance

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:39:39 -0800, Bay Area Dave wrote
(in message <%[email protected]>):

> that they are designated for use with a mallet and occasional hammer blows?
>
> dave
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>

All that means is that the *handles* are designed to withstand the impact of
a mallet and hammer- the handle strength seems to be a big selling point with
Marples, which has to make you wonder. Since when is handle strength the
most important feature of a chisel?

I got a cheap Japanese chisel (the Japan Woodworker brand) and I find
that the edge chips out if I look at it the wrong way. It got
frustrating enough that I relegated it to scraping paint and got
something else to replace it. Hard to say if the Grizzly ones are
good or not, but if they're really cheap I'd be nervous. (Unless you
like sharpening your chisels all the time.)

"Wm Gardner" <[email protected]> writes:

>While I agree with you in principle, budgets do eventually come into
>play also. For the chisels you mentioned, the 1.5" (alone) is 1/2 the
>price of the entire Grizzly set. Frankly this is more than I intended to
>spend on chisels.

>Don't misunderstand, I am not questioning the quality/price/value of the
>higher end Japanese chisels, I was just hoping to get something of
>reasonable quality for an affordable price. If these chisels are of low
>quality, I will likely purchase the Freud set instead. Though I would
>like Japanese chisels, I do not want a poor quality tool just because it
>is Japanese.

>Thanks for the advice (domo arigato),
>Bill

>--

>"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
>-Theodore Roosevelt


><Layne> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
>> like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
>> pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
>> okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
>> apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
>> chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
>> look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
>> get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
>> chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
>> chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
>> not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.
>>
>> Layne
>> ps, usual disclaimers apply.
>>
>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:13 GMT, "Wm Gardner"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried
>that
>> >set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
>> >and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
>> >anyone out there taken the chance?
>> >
>> >Thanks in advance,
>> >Bill
>>

This is really bumming me out. My Marples chisels ARE my good
chisels. I bought them to use instead of my Stanley's, which are
probably just as good.


--
The software said it ran under Windows 98/NT/2000, or better.
So I installed it on Linux...
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
> performs the same cuts with nary a blemish?? I decimated the edge on
> the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
> into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.
>
> dave
>
> Conan the Librarian wrote:
> > Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<uN%[email protected]>...
> >
> >
> >>I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> >>the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> >>Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> >>was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> >>saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> >>to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
> >>
> >>I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> >>What's up with these Marples?
> >
> >
> > Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
> > the first place?
> >
> > FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
> > real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
> > about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
> >
> >
> > Chuck Vance
>


---
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Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<uN%[email protected]>...
> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave


I bought a set of the Blue-handled Marples at HD 6 years ago, when I
started my first classical guitar. I found them to work just fine on
mahogany and rosewood: sharpen them just once before each project.
Even used my 1" chisel last summer to install a sliding door in the
bedroom. My intent was to "sacrifice: it to the job, and replace it
with a new one later. After using it to chop/chisle/pry on spruce,
ply, oak and particle board, it had one tiny nick. Recently, I took a
stone to it and after 30 minutes I am once again using it on my
guitars . . .

Worked for me, and the price was right!

Scott

Nope.

--
Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry, THANK YOU for this info! I started my subscription to FWW about
> a year ago so that one isn't in my library. Nice to see that their test
> ing bears out my very LIMITED experience with the Pro touch vs the one
> Sears venerable chisel that has survived from the 70's.
>
> Did they give a rating for "Best Buy"?
>
> dave
>
> Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote:
>
> > I was just looking through some old FWW mags and ran across an article
on
> > chisels in the Dec/1999, issue 139. They looked at 17 different chisels
and
> > tested their hardness and toughness. It might be worth looking at if
you
> > have a copy although it's 4 years old now.
> >
> > FWIW, they ranked the Marples Blue Chip as coming in 16th out of the 17
> > chisels tested, IOW almost dead last. Craftsman came in 9th. The
chisels
> > that tested best for toughness were White Steel ($32 for a 1/2" chisel)
> > first, then Blue Steel ($38 for a 1/2" chisel), and in third was Iyori
($156
> > for a set of 4 chisels).
> >
> > Double FWIW, the Craftsman rated better for toughness than Japan
Woodworker
> > (10th), Garrett Wade (11th), Robert Sorby Gilt-Edge (12th), Lee Valley
> > (13th), Robert Sorby Octagonal (14th), Stanley 5002 (15th), Marples Blue
> > Chip (16th), and Pfeil (17th).
> >
> > Again, this test is now 4 years old and they were only testing current
> > models of chisels and they didn't test all models (e.g. Marples
Protech),
> > but maybe this helps explain why your Sears holds up better than your
> > Marples.
> >
>

I'd send it to you, but I've gotten a refund on it already. :)

Nice try, Jim!

dave

Jim Wilson wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote...
>
>>perhaps the quality of the one ProTouch that I purchased isn't the same
>>as your 30 year old blue chips, Mike.
>
>
> Tell you what, Dave. Send me your ProTouch chisel and I'll test it for
> you. I am reasonably confident that a thorough examination of the
> specific tool in question will reveal the reason it didn't perform well.
> If it has a correctable problem, I'll fix it.
>
> Either way, I'll return it to you. There's a very good chance the mystery
> will be resolved, and you might even get a better tool back than you
> bought. Although it is highly unlikely that I'll harm the tool in any
> substantial way [1], if I do somehow manage to damage it, I'll gladly
> repay you its purchase price.
>
> See? There *is* such a thing as a free lunch. Well, you pay postage, ok?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Jim
>
> [1] The hardness tester leaves a tiny dimple at the test point. I expect
> to do that particular test in probably four or five places. It is
> possible that I'll need to test the face (or do you call it the back?)
> near the edge, in which case I'll restore that area to flat. Any other
> test marks will be left behind, as they will not impair the tool's
> function.

sorry to drive you nuts, Dave! :) I THOUGHT you had said that I was
using a mallet on a chisel type that shouldn't be struck with one. If I
got you wrong, I'm sorry.

There IS the possibility that I got one really crappy sample of a
Marples chisel, too, and had I tried another it might have fared better.
In any event, it wouldn't work for MY intended purpose so it's just as
well that I returned it.

dave

[email protected] wrote:
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>perhaps you should read this before you condemn me for using a mallet.
>
>
> You're making me crazy. I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SHOULDN'T USE A MALLET!
> Paring chisels shouldn't be struck, bench chisels probably shouldn't be
> but sometimes are butt chisels frequently are and mortising chisels must
> be. Someone else told you not to strike chisels because of his
> training, which I tend to agree with BTW but even he wouldn't tell you
> not to strike a mortising chisel. What you have there is the bastard
> son of a butt and a bench chisel. Furthermore it isn't a great quality
> chisel, that's why I said that I consigned them to my crappier jobs. I
> believe in mallets, read the posts, I don't believe in hammers except
> for nails. Before you get upset about what I've said, please make sure
> that I said it.
> Thenkew,
> Dave in Fairfax

I have been using blue chip for 30 years and am quite happy with the
product. My projects being rudimentary probably are not so demanding of my
chisels as they are of Dave's..

I suppose Marples must be either fooling a bunch of people or at least
producing an acceptable product, after all they have only been doing it for
a hundred years or so ....mjh

--




"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > I wasn't intending to chop deep mortises without getting dedicated
> > mortising chisels, but what I'm trying to explain in this thread is that
> > by cutting into red oak four times less than 3/16" deep, for testing the
> > chisel, I found the edge destroyed. my Sears did the same thing and
> > came away none the worse for wear. I don't intended to use a beveled
> > edge chisel to chop inch deep mortises, but I should be able to tap the
> > chisel into the wood to "mark" it.
>
> Fine. Buy Sears chisels then. Some of us will continue to use our
> Marples chisels. And guess what? We will post about our own
> experiences with them. And guess what? We might not agree with you.
> Get used to it.
>
> > Thanks for the snide comment.
>
> I'm glad you enjoyed it. I assumed that you must, seeing how often
> you you beg for it.
>
> > I didn't say I had the Bluechip chisels. they are Protouch.
>
> I know that. My mistake to include the words "Blue Chip" in my
> previous post. But I have Blue Chips. And guess what? They're made
> by the same company. And guess what? They perform about as well as I
> would expect for a set that runs less than $30.
>
> > Again, you aren't reading my posts closely. I know, I know, my posts
> > don't deserve any attention...
>
> Not nearly as much as you seem to think they do.
>
>
> Chuck Vance

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:25:46 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>They are MUCH higher quality than the Marples, and for $100, I think an even
>better value.

Mike,
How flat was the back of the two cherries when you got them?
They look good, and I'm thinking of picking some up myself.

Thanks,
Barry

It's marketing hype. The tool is so soft it is all but worthless. I
have a set that I let the "grandkids" play with. The others come from
Japan.

I called LN this week. Sometime this quarter they promise to have their
chisels out.

RB

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave
>

Another point of view. . . .

When I made the rocking chair at Homestead Heritage, The class used nothing
but blue handled Marples chisels. The chair has 42 M&T joints, all hand
made. :-)
I wonder how we managed that. There were 10 chairs made in that class.

Having said that, I have purchased some mortise chisels. I tend not to use
them because the bench chisels are always out and always scalpel sharp. I
learned to keep the stones out on the bench when working, and it is easy to
touch up the edge when required. We learned to sharpen chisels and plane
irons without grinders or honing jigs at Homestead Heritage.
I've started using files to clean up the edges on damaged chisels ala The
Furniture Doctor (George Grotz).
I really think it is more a matter of technique than some realize.

If I were chopping mortises in mesquite though like you do, I'm sure my
attitude would change. Has anybody here tried Jim Cummings instructions for
tempering chisels with propane torches. I think I will try it on one of my
really soft chisels (old Stanley Defiance) and report back.

Woodworking is largely a matter of personal preferences. I'll spend $140 for
a dovetail saw, and $200 for a hand plane, but I've never purchased a $100
chisel.

"Conan The Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
> > Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
> > performs the same cuts with nary a blemish??
> >snip>
> I have several recent-vintage Stanleys that I keep ground to fairly
> steep angles. They work great for pounding into things. I keep my Blue
> Chips sharpened at pretty low bevel-angles. Guess what? They don't
> work so great for pounding into things. But they do work well for
> paring cuts.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
>

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top, mentioned
> on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and the
> "occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a hinge
> mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel instead
> of a bench chisel.

Dave, I don't usually come in on these discussions, but this time I
gotta. I've got some Blue Chips - they work fine as paring chisels.
I've got some Pro-touches, they're for beating on stuff with, not the
same thing at all. I've got one Sorby mortise chisel, a Keen Kutter
corner chisel and a handful of old mortise chisels. Each one is for a
different purpose. I'm glad that your old Stanley bench chisels will
work as mortise chisels, but it isn't their purpose in life. Why not
use the right tools, you'll be less upset with the results.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> guess you didn't read the insert that came with your Protouch?

I thought that I had, but I didn't find them to be the same quality as
my blue chips so I relegated them to coarser work. What did I miss?
Dave in Fairfax
--
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Bay Area Dave wrote:
> that they are designated for use with a mallet and occasional hammer blows?

I saw that, but that wasn't what I was saying. I never mentioned what
to hit them with, just that different types of chisels are used for
different purposes. I don't use hammers with chisels, mallets only. My
motising and corner chisels are struck by mallets, paing chisels never
are. I hope that makes it clearer.
Dave in Fairfax
--
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Bay Area Dave wrote:
> I used a dead blow mallet

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I saw that, but that wasn't what I was saying. I never mentioned what
> > to hit them with

Still missing my point. <Sigh>
Dave in Fairfax
--
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Bay Area Dave wrote:
> your point being that the chisels I bought are "paring"? I thought what
> I got were bench chisels. certainly not firmer or mortise, but just as
> certain they aren't paring, either.

No what you got was a cross between a bench chisel and a butt chisel.
Both have bevel edges, Butt chisels tend to be shorter and are designed
for abuse. Bench chisels are more for clean-up type work, glue-lines,
stray trash on edges, things like that. In a pinch they can be used as
a paring chisel to clean up dadoes or dovetails, but they really aren't
as good as the longer and thinner paring chisels. Firmer chisels look
like Bench chisels but the sides are square to the faces, Mortise
chisels are thicker top to bottom than they are side to side, but are
also square to the faces. Does that help? Take a look on the net or in
an antique shop for a much better idea. Once you see them and can
handle them it'll be satori.

Dave in Fairfax
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Bay Area Dave wrote:
> perhaps you should read this before you condemn me for using a mallet.

You're making me crazy. I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SHOULDN'T USE A MALLET!
Paring chisels shouldn't be struck, bench chisels probably shouldn't be
but sometimes are butt chisels frequently are and mortising chisels must
be. Someone else told you not to strike chisels because of his
training, which I tend to agree with BTW but even he wouldn't tell you
not to strike a mortising chisel. What you have there is the bastard
son of a butt and a bench chisel. Furthermore it isn't a great quality
chisel, that's why I said that I consigned them to my crappier jobs. I
believe in mallets, read the posts, I don't believe in hammers except
for nails. Before you get upset about what I've said, please make sure
that I said it.
Thenkew,
Dave in Fairfax
--
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Knowing the kind of wood work that you do, I doubt it. I really was trying
to make a point to others.
I learned to use hand tools at Homestead Heritage and I use the techniques
they taught me along with other things I've picked up. I really am a duffer,
but occasionally I turn out something nice.
We all are more comfortable with the techniques we know, but that doesn't
mean one is necessarily better than others.
I would hesitate making something out of mesquite. I suppose I will have to
try. I make Shaker style candle boxes because it gives me practice in making
dovetails. The females in my family and acquaintances seem to appreciate
them, so the boxes never just sit around. Ladies it seems, really like
little boxes almost as much as young boys do. :-)
I wonder if I could do one using mesquite ? . . .


"Conan The Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> Your technique is probably better than mine. >


> Chuck Vance
>

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> sorry to drive you nuts, Dave! :) I THOUGHT you had said that I was
> using a mallet on a chisel type that shouldn't be struck with one. If I
> got you wrong, I'm sorry.
> There IS the possibility that I got one really crappy sample of a
> Marples chisel, too, and had I tried another it might have fared better.
> In any event, it wouldn't work for MY intended purpose so it's just as
> well that I returned it.

Fair enough. I've got a couple sets of the Blue chips and haven't had
any problems with them. From the responses it sounds like the quality
control is slipping and they turned out a bad batch. I've got an old st
of Bucks (mad in USA) that are nice too. Makes me wonder if the slip in
quality had to do with the Record or with Rubbermaid. Record's used to
metal, hmmm.
Dav in Fairfax
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Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
> I'd send it to you, but I've gotten a refund on it already. :)
>
> Nice try, Jim!
>
> dave
>

In the event that anyone's unaware of who Jim Wilson is and
why Dave missed a great opportunity - Jim made the mortising
chisels Steve Knight carried. He's a tool maker and knows
his stuff. I recall that he's gotten back into making his
mortising chisels again after a hiatus. Can't find the new
url but here's his old one. Perhaps he'll provide his new
url

www.paragoncode.com/toolmaking/

I'm certain that when you got your chisel back it'd be
sharper than you could make it and the back would be
dead flat.

As for his mortising chisels - well you can try one out
when the lock miter joints are done :)

charlie b

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<uN%[email protected]>...

> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?

Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
the first place?

FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.


Chuck Vance

"Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Knowing the kind of wood work that you do, I doubt it. I really was trying
> to make a point to others.
> I learned to use hand tools at Homestead Heritage and I use the techniques
> they taught me along with other things I've picked up. I really am a duffer,
> but occasionally I turn out something nice.
> We all are more comfortable with the techniques we know, but that doesn't
> mean one is necessarily better than others.
> I would hesitate making something out of mesquite. I suppose I will have to
> try. I make Shaker style candle boxes because it gives me practice in making
> dovetails. The females in my family and acquaintances seem to appreciate
> them, so the boxes never just sit around. Ladies it seems, really like
> little boxes almost as much as young boys do. :-)
> I wonder if I could do one using mesquite ? . . .

I don't see why not. Mesquite is such a joy to work (well except
when you're working from a log and you've got to deal with all the
dirt that gets into the wormholes). It's dead stable, smells nice
when working, is hard but not splintery, and has just enough grain
reversals to keep things interesting. :-)

If you learned at Homestead Heritage, I daresay you've learned some
excellent technique and it's no accident that you turn out nice
things. Do you have any pics of your candle boxes? That might be
something fun to try as a gift for SWMBO. I think she's getting tired
of me giving her jewelry boxes. ;-)


Chuck Vance

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I wasn't intending to chop deep mortises without getting dedicated
> mortising chisels, but what I'm trying to explain in this thread is that
> by cutting into red oak four times less than 3/16" deep, for testing the
> chisel, I found the edge destroyed. my Sears did the same thing and
> came away none the worse for wear. I don't intended to use a beveled
> edge chisel to chop inch deep mortises, but I should be able to tap the
> chisel into the wood to "mark" it.

Fine. Buy Sears chisels then. Some of us will continue to use our
Marples chisels. And guess what? We will post about our own
experiences with them. And guess what? We might not agree with you.
Get used to it.

> Thanks for the snide comment.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I assumed that you must, seeing how often
you you beg for it.

> I didn't say I had the Bluechip chisels. they are Protouch.

I know that. My mistake to include the words "Blue Chip" in my
previous post. But I have Blue Chips. And guess what? They're made
by the same company. And guess what? They perform about as well as I
would expect for a set that runs less than $30.

> Again, you aren't reading my posts closely. I know, I know, my posts
> don't deserve any attention...

Not nearly as much as you seem to think they do.


Chuck Vance

"Larry C in Auburn, WA" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<bN%Rb.133018$Rc4.1037752@attbi_s54>...

> They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
> straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC
> number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is
> where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17. They ran the chisels through
> a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
> micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they
> rated the toughness of the edge.

I remember reading this article and wondering exactly what it hoped
to "prove". To me it seemed to be close to worthless unless you
consider a chisel to be an implement of destruction (or you just use
them to open paint cans or chop through rusty nails).

I'll leave it to the metallurgists to debate this sort of thing,
but isn't the true worth of a chisel found in the fact that it can
hold a decent edge but still be sharpened in a reasonable time?
(Isn't it a compromise?) Doesn't this mean that the "best" chisel in
that test would have a medium/high Rockwell, but a high "toughness"
rating?


Chuck Vance

No but perhaps a bad batch may have got through inspection, If you are
dealing with a reputable supplier they will probably either exchange them or
give you uour money back. mjh

--




"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> perhaps the quality of the one ProTouch that I purchased isn't the same
> as your 30 year old blue chips, Mike.
>
> dave
>
> Mike Hide wrote:
>
> > I have been using blue chip for 30 years and am quite happy with the
> > product. My projects being rudimentary probably are not so demanding of
my
> > chisels as they are of Dave's..
> >
> > I suppose Marples must be either fooling a bunch of people or at least
> > producing an acceptable product, after all they have only been doing it
for
> > a hundred years or so ....mjh
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>>I wasn't intending to chop deep mortises without getting dedicated
> >>>mortising chisels, but what I'm trying to explain in this thread is
that
> >>>by cutting into red oak four times less than 3/16" deep, for testing
the
> >>>chisel, I found the edge destroyed. my Sears did the same thing and
> >>>came away none the worse for wear. I don't intended to use a beveled
> >>>edge chisel to chop inch deep mortises, but I should be able to tap the
> >>>chisel into the wood to "mark" it.
> >>
> >> Fine. Buy Sears chisels then. Some of us will continue to use our
> >>Marples chisels. And guess what? We will post about our own
> >>experiences with them. And guess what? We might not agree with you.
> >>Get used to it.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Thanks for the snide comment.
> >>
> >> I'm glad you enjoyed it. I assumed that you must, seeing how often
> >>you you beg for it.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I didn't say I had the Bluechip chisels. they are Protouch.
> >>
> >> I know that. My mistake to include the words "Blue Chip" in my
> >>previous post. But I have Blue Chips. And guess what? They're made
> >>by the same company. And guess what? They perform about as well as I
> >>would expect for a set that runs less than $30.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Again, you aren't reading my posts closely. I know, I know, my posts
> >>>don't deserve any attention...
> >>
> >> Not nearly as much as you seem to think they do.
> >>
> >>
> >> Chuck Vance
> >
> >
>

Why not try the chisels, and if you don't like them send them back?
Remember to use your American Express if you do this... DAMHIKT

I have used my sets of Craftsman chisels for years now. The oldest
set is over 20 years old! I have three sets: One I take to the job
in a nylon rolling case that lives in my truck. These are pretty
sharp, but are also my "beaters". I hammer, pry, dig and chop with
this set. If I hit an embedded nail or hard knot (like oak), I swear
a lot when I get a nick, but I don't cry.

My second set is treated better, and it goes to the job to install new
door locks, cabinet pieces, and to do fitting of different hardware
and lockets since I do a lot of remodeling. I do not abuse these, and
they stay pretty sharp for a decent amount of time, and are really
easy to put a fine edge on even in the field.

Last set I just got at a Christmas sale, and bought the set of when
they had the 50% off sale with an additional 10% off if purchased
before 11:00am. The set of 5 cost me something like $13.

No, they are not the same as some of really nice, expensive chisels
that I have that stay in the house, in the closet, that I am afraid I
might accidentally drop. In fact, I have found that I don't use my
expensive chisels much at all, since they are out of sight and out of
mind.

Find the chisels you like regardless of where they are made by trying
them out, and sending them back if you don't like them. Inexpensive
doesn't mean bad. My Sears chisels are great.

And as pointed out, they don't have a lot of advertising, promotion,
or laurels to rest on at Grizzly as far as their *chisels* go so that
may account for the lesser price.

Remember at Grizzly or any other big discounter/bulk seller/volume
retailer,
they don't care about the product as much as they do moving it out.
To them, the only one that recognizes "Japanese chisels" is of
significance is their ad writers. To the rest of the company, no
matter their worth to you, they are just products moving through the
system.

Robert

Yes, SWMBO gave me the set of 10 last Christmas. Before using them I
spent a little time sharpening them (using the scary sharp system).
Once I had put an edge on the 1" chisel, I used it to shave off some
end grain from a scrap of maple. Sweet! Now, I can't really compare
them to the Marples since these were my first chisels, but I can say
that after a year they are still a pleasure to use.

Ian

"Wm Gardner" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<dLRQb.149168$na.246764@attbi_s04>...
> While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried that
> set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
> and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
> anyone out there taken the chance?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Bill
>
> --
>
> "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
> -Theodore Roosevelt
>
>
> "Alan W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > > If you want some SERIOUS chisels, drive on up to Alameda, and visit
> The
> > > Japan Woodworker. Make certain you bring your high limit credit
> card,
> > > though. They are rightly proud of their tools.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, your grandchildren will be trying to decide who
> gets
> > > them when you're gone....
> > >
> >
> >
> > I've been looking at just buying a couple of chisels from Japan
> > Woodworker. My limited set of 1/4, 1/2, and 1" of cheap stanleys have
> > seen only use of the smaller two. And they are better suited to glue
> > line scraping than mortising.
> >
> > What does one need to spend on individual chisels to get a good
> > mortising chisel? $30 $50 $150?
> >
> > Thanks for those who have used them.

"Larry C in Auburn, WA" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<97GQb.145656$na.236306@attbi_s04>...
> FWIW, they ranked the Marples Blue Chip as coming in 16th out of the 17
> chisels tested, IOW almost dead last. Craftsman came in 9th. The chisels
> that tested best for toughness were White Steel ($32 for a 1/2" chisel)
> first, then Blue Steel ($38 for a 1/2" chisel), and in third was Iyori ($156
> for a set of 4 chisels).
>
> Double FWIW, the Craftsman rated better for toughness than Japan Woodworker
> (10th), Garrett Wade (11th), Robert Sorby Gilt-Edge (12th), Lee Valley
> (13th), Robert Sorby Octagonal (14th), Stanley 5002 (15th), Marples Blue
> Chip (16th), and Pfeil (17th).

Interesting that Pfeil would come in last. I have a set, they take an
edge and hold up just fine. Anyone else used these and think they're
the worst?

Scott Wilson

I was just looking through some old FWW mags and ran across an article on
chisels in the Dec/1999, issue 139. They looked at 17 different chisels and
tested their hardness and toughness. It might be worth looking at if you
have a copy although it's 4 years old now.

FWIW, they ranked the Marples Blue Chip as coming in 16th out of the 17
chisels tested, IOW almost dead last. Craftsman came in 9th. The chisels
that tested best for toughness were White Steel ($32 for a 1/2" chisel)
first, then Blue Steel ($38 for a 1/2" chisel), and in third was Iyori ($156
for a set of 4 chisels).

Double FWIW, the Craftsman rated better for toughness than Japan Woodworker
(10th), Garrett Wade (11th), Robert Sorby Gilt-Edge (12th), Lee Valley
(13th), Robert Sorby Octagonal (14th), Stanley 5002 (15th), Marples Blue
Chip (16th), and Pfeil (17th).

Again, this test is now 4 years old and they were only testing current
models of chisels and they didn't test all models (e.g. Marples Protech),
but maybe this helps explain why your Sears holds up better than your
Marples.

--
Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:uN%[email protected]...
> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave
>

Not necessarily unless you include marketing & hype as part of what you pay
for. This is a really long thread, but in one of my answers I mentioned a
FWW chisel test from issue #139 Dec/99. They measured hardness and
toughness of 17 chisels. A couple of comparisons that might be interesting:

The most expensive chisels ("you get what you pay for", right?) were ones
from Barr Specialty Tools at about $75 per chisel. These had a Rockwell
hardness of 61C and ranked 5th in toughness. Pretty disappointing for the
most expensive tool tested. However, the article also pointed out the feel
of it is a "delight to hold and behold".

A $20 chisel from Hirsch was even harder (59C) and ranked higher at 4th in
toughness. So for $55 less per chisel you could get a harder and tougher
chisel.

The least expensive chisel was from Sears at $6/chisel and ranked 9th in
toughness with a hardness of 60C which wasn't too bad compared to the
others.

In the test the top three spots went to Japanese chisels, but then down
below the cheap Craftsman came another Japanese chisel so it wasn't a give
that a Japanese chisel would outperform all others. I guess the bottom line
is that you can't be sure the Grizzly chisel is good just because it's a
Japanese chisel. OTOH, you can't be sure that it isn't good just because it
costs less than expected.

I should point out that the article also came to the conclusion that none of
the 17 chisels tested were "junk". They also came to the conclusion that
it's probably more important how the chisel feels in your hand than it's
toughness because the quality of the metal really just dictates how often
you have to sharpen it. As the FWW article says "What's the point of buying
a chisel made of super-tough steel if it feels lousy in your hand?" Seems
like good advice.

--
Larry C in Auburn, WA



<Layne> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
> like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
> pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
> okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
> apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
> chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
> look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
> get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
> chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
> chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
> not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.
>
> Layne
> ps, usual disclaimers apply.

I didn't use a hammer, Chuck. You aren't reading my posts very closely,
are you? :)

dave

Conan The Librarian wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top,
>> mentioned on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and
>> the "occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a
>> hinge mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel
>> instead of a bench chisel.
>
>
> You use a hammer on your chisels when cutting hinge mortises?
>
>
> Chuck Vance
> Just say (tmPL) Well, that explains a lot.
>

wouldn't they be discolored? I use to harden chisels for automotive
use. Worked great; heat 'em and quench 'em in oil.

dave

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>you mean they are tipped with sh*t for steel but the rest of the tool
>>is better??
>
>
> or got hot during grinding, as should not happen...
>

perhaps you should read this before you condemn me for using a mallet.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00116.asp


dave

[email protected] wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>I used a dead blow mallet
>
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>I saw that, but that wasn't what I was saying. I never mentioned what
>>>to hit them with
>
>
> Still missing my point. <Sigh>
> Dave in Fairfax

not to worry, David. the pundits here think it's MY fault the edge fell
apart. and I didn't get the Blue Chip chisels.

dave

David Binkowski wrote:

> This is really bumming me out. My Marples chisels ARE my good
> chisels. I bought them to use instead of my Stanley's, which are
> probably just as good.
>
>

you mean they are tipped with sh*t for steel but the rest of the tool is
better??

dave

blabla wrote:

> Did you grind off the first 1/8" to get to the good steel? I've got Buck,
> Ashley Isles, Marples and they all are the shits right out of the box. Some
> of the guys at the shop have 2 Cherries and they say thiers were good right
> out of the box, but I don't know if they were trying to chop oak or
> something just as hard.
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
>>performs the same cuts with nary a blemish?? I decimated the edge on
>>the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
>>into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Conan the Librarian wrote:
>>
>>>Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:<uN%[email protected]>...
>
>>>
>>>>I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
>>>>the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
>>>>Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
>>>>was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
>>>>saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
>>>>to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>>>>
>>>>I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
>>>>What's up with these Marples?
>>>
>>>
>>> Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
>>>the first place?
>>>
>>> FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
>>>real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
>>>about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck Vance
>>
>
>

I wasn't intending to chop deep mortises without getting dedicated
mortising chisels, but what I'm trying to explain in this thread is that
by cutting into red oak four times less than 3/16" deep, for testing the
chisel, I found the edge destroyed. my Sears did the same thing and
came away none the worse for wear. I don't intended to use a beveled
edge chisel to chop inch deep mortises, but I should be able to tap the
chisel into the wood to "mark" it.

Thanks for the snide comment.

I didn't say I had the Bluechip chisels. they are Protouch.

Again, you aren't reading my posts closely. I know, I know, my posts
don't deserve any attention...

dave

Conan The Librarian wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> I didn't use a hammer, Chuck. You aren't reading my posts very
>> closely, are you? :)
>
>
> I give them them as much attention as they deserve. (And in this
> case, sadly, a lot more.)
>
> In one sentence you mentioned that they were supposed to be able to
> withstand mallet and hammer blows. In the next sentence you talked
> about chopping hinge mortises.
>
> Can you see how someone might logically infer that the two were related?
>
> OK, fine ... you win. All Blue Chips are a piece of crap (despite my
> experiences to the contrary). And you don't need mortising chisels to
> chop mortises. And you should be able to do everything from opening
> paintcans to paring a paper thin slice of endgrain with the same chisel.
> And it should never get dull or chip. And you should be able to buy it
> for less than $20. Happy now?
>
>
> Chuck Vance
>

a torch. I still have those chisels. they are hard; not brittle, tough
as a proverbial nail.

dave

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>wouldn't they be discolored? I use to harden chisels for automotive
>
>
> Not necessarily, softening starts well before coloring (depending on
> the steel type, of course).
>
>
>>use. Worked great; heat 'em and quench 'em in oil.
>
>
> But makes then brittle, you should temper them after that, there are
> lots of web sites that tell you how. What do you use to heat them up?
>

Juergen Hannappel wrote...
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > wouldn't they be discolored? I use to harden chisels for automotive
>
> Not necessarily, softening starts well before coloring (depending on
> the steel type, of course).

They might not be discolored because oxidation colors are easily removed
by abrasion -- grinding, polishing, honing or other normal tool finishing
practices. They may also have been tempered in a controlled environment
(inert atmosphere or vacuum) that prevents the oxidation that causes the
coloring.

However, if heated in air, the tool steel used in Marples chisels will
certainly discolor before it softens beyond its intended use hardness. In
fact, it discolors if heated to its normal tempering temperature in an
oxygen-bearing atmosphere.

Jim

Bay Area Dave wrote...
> perhaps the quality of the one ProTouch that I purchased isn't the same
> as your 30 year old blue chips, Mike.

Tell you what, Dave. Send me your ProTouch chisel and I'll test it for
you. I am reasonably confident that a thorough examination of the
specific tool in question will reveal the reason it didn't perform well.
If it has a correctable problem, I'll fix it.

Either way, I'll return it to you. There's a very good chance the mystery
will be resolved, and you might even get a better tool back than you
bought. Although it is highly unlikely that I'll harm the tool in any
substantial way [1], if I do somehow manage to damage it, I'll gladly
repay you its purchase price.

See? There *is* such a thing as a free lunch. Well, you pay postage, ok?

Cheers!

Jim

[1] The hardness tester leaves a tiny dimple at the test point. I expect
to do that particular test in probably four or five places. It is
possible that I'll need to test the face (or do you call it the back?)
near the edge, in which case I'll restore that area to flat. Any other
test marks will be left behind, as they will not impair the tool's
function.

charlie b wrote...
> In the event that anyone's unaware of who Jim Wilson is and
> why Dave missed a great opportunity - Jim made the mortising
> chisels Steve Knight carried. He's a tool maker and knows
> his stuff. I recall that he's gotten back into making his
> mortising chisels again after a hiatus.

Hi, Charlie, and thank you for your kind words!

Roy's right. I had to stop taking orders again in October. I was able to
get a few hundred chisels out over the summer but had to shut down soon
after, owing once again to lack of time. I sure love making tools, but
haven't yet been able to set aside enough time to it to keep pace with
demand. Unfortunately, I still have other commitments that prevent me
from devoting all my time to tool making. Perhaps someday...

> Can't find the new
> url but here's his old one. Perhaps he'll provide his new
> url
>
> www.paragoncode.com/toolmaking/

The pages are still intact, and that's as good a start point as any.
Folks interested in making their own chisels might find some useful
information. The mortise chisel pages start at

www.paragoncode.com/toolmaking/mortise_chisels

Cheers!

Jim

Myxylplyk wrote...
> If the demand is that great, why not do it full time?
> No or low profit?

Well, profit is controllable, and it could be used to moderate demand,
too, but income isn't the real issue for me. It's time.

In order to keep pace with demand and maintain control of the time spent
on tool making, I would have to change my methods a bit. I would need to
hire employees, subcontract parts, deal with vendors, purchase and use
more modern equipment and production methods, manage retail channels, and
so on. In short, I'd need to start running a company again.

Now, there's nothing wrong with running a company, if that's what you
want to spend your time doing, or if you are trying to earn an income.
It's a great way to make a living, especially if you are a hard-working
and diligent person. But it's not how I want to spend my days at this
point in my life. There are too many other things I'd rather do with the
time. One of them is making tools. (G)

One potential solution that I've been considering is to handle things
more like an art studio than a manufacturer. Instead of taking and
fulfilling orders for copies of tools that I've made in the past, I could
get back to making interesting and new (to me) things, perhaps filling
the occasional commission. I would like to keep the prices low enough
that my tools can be purchased by folks who will actually put them to
good use. Unfortunately, it's hard to do that in a cottage
industry, without giving things away.

Cheers!

Jim

Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote...
>
> The most expensive chisels ("you get what you pay for", right?) were ones
> from Barr Specialty Tools at about $75 per chisel. These had a Rockwell
> hardness of 61C and ranked 5th in toughness. Pretty disappointing for the
> most expensive tool tested. However, the article also pointed out the feel
> of it is a "delight to hold and behold".
>
> A $20 chisel from Hirsch was even harder (59C) and ranked higher at 4th in
> toughness. So for $55 less per chisel you could get a harder and tougher
> chisel.
>
> The least expensive chisel was from Sears at $6/chisel and ranked 9th in
> toughness with a hardness of 60C which wasn't too bad compared to the
> others.

I'm a tad confused by your numbers. A material which measures 61 on the
Rockwell "C" scale is harder than one that measures HRC59. In steels,
hardness and toughness tend to work against each other (though good
compromises can be achieved), so it makes sense that a HRC61 blade might
not be as tough as a HRC59 blade.

> I should point out that the article also came to the conclusion that none of
> the 17 chisels tested were "junk". They also came to the conclusion that
> it's probably more important how the chisel feels in your hand than it's
> toughness because the quality of the metal really just dictates how often
> you have to sharpen it. As the FWW article says "What's the point of buying
> a chisel made of super-tough steel if it feels lousy in your hand?" Seems
> like good advice.

Yes, it does. Did they by any chance detail the metrics they used to rank
the chisels? From your description above, it sounds like they ranked
toughness pretty highly, but that seems contrary to this last bit of
advice.

Also, did they attempt to identify the types of steel used in the tested
chisels?

Thanks,

Jim

Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote...

> They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
> straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC
> number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is
> where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17.

Wow. By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel
would have rated highly, as it is extremely tough, although not at all
hard, being typically HRC35 or below. Of course, the edge would fail by
bending despite the toughness, so I am being a little facetious.

> They ran the chisels through
> a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
> micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they
> rated the toughness of the edge.

Wow, again. Those are some mighty big microns! (G) They're even bigger
than tenths! Most microns, properly "micrometers," are about 0.00003937";
25,400 of 'em fit in an inch.

> Seemed to be something of a crap shoot to find the "right" chisel.

IME, that's exactly how it is "in real life." Thanks for the information
on the article, Larry. I haven't seen it and wondered how they would
compare the tools quantitatively. Please forgive me for picking on it a
little bit. I don't mean to be giving you a hard time at all.

Cheers!

Jim

Jim Wilson wrote...

> By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel
> would have rated highly

A good quality screwdriver would have rated even better!

Jim

Aw, cut the poor guy some slack for change.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

Thanks for the input Ian. Just had that phrase ("if is sounds too good
to be true.....") running around in my head. Better to hear of someone
else's experience.

Bill

--

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
-Theodore Roosevelt


"Ian Dodd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yes, SWMBO gave me the set of 10 last Christmas. Before using them I
> spent a little time sharpening them (using the scary sharp system).
> Once I had put an edge on the 1" chisel, I used it to shave off some
> end grain from a scrap of maple. Sweet! Now, I can't really compare
> them to the Marples since these were my first chisels, but I can say
> that after a year they are still a pleasure to use.
>
> Ian
>
> "Wm Gardner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<dLRQb.149168$na.246764@attbi_s04>...
> > While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried
that
> > set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they
look
> > and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
> > anyone out there taken the chance?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Bill
> >
> > --
> >
> > "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
> > -Theodore Roosevelt
> >
> >
> > "Alan W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > Dave,
> > > > If you want some SERIOUS chisels, drive on up to Alameda, and
visit
> > The
> > > > Japan Woodworker. Make certain you bring your high limit credit
> > card,
> > > > though. They are rightly proud of their tools.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, your grandchildren will be trying to decide
who
> > gets
> > > > them when you're gone....
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've been looking at just buying a couple of chisels from Japan
> > > Woodworker. My limited set of 1/4, 1/2, and 1" of cheap stanleys
have
> > > seen only use of the smaller two. And they are better suited to
glue
> > > line scraping than mortising.
> > >
> > > What does one need to spend on individual chisels to get a good
> > > mortising chisel? $30 $50 $150?
> > >
> > > Thanks for those who have used them.

I used a dead blow mallet

dave

[email protected] wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>that they are designated for use with a mallet and occasional hammer blows?
>
>
> I saw that, but that wasn't what I was saying. I never mentioned what
> to hit them with, just that different types of chisels are used for
> different purposes. I don't use hammers with chisels, mallets only. My
> motising and corner chisels are struck by mallets, paing chisels never
> are. I hope that makes it clearer.
> Dave in Fairfax

I spent a fair amount of time flattening them with some 150 grit wet/dry
sandpaper. I didn't time it exactly, but let's just say it took more than
30 seconds but less than 5 minutes. As these things go, I'd say that they
were pretty flat right out of the box. Keep in mind, I only flattened the
1-2 inches right near the edge.

Mike

"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:25:46 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >They are MUCH higher quality than the Marples, and for $100, I think an
even
> >better value.
>
> Mike,
> How flat was the back of the two cherries when you got them?
> They look good, and I'm thinking of picking some up myself.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry

In article <[email protected]>, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top, mentioned
>on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and the
>"occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a hinge
>mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel instead
>of a bench chisel.
>
Must be one hell of a hinge, if you have to chop a mortise 3/16" deep.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

cool!

dave

charlie b wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>I'd send it to you, but I've gotten a refund on it already. :)
>>
>>Nice try, Jim!
>>
>>dave
>>
>
>
> In the event that anyone's unaware of who Jim Wilson is and
> why Dave missed a great opportunity - Jim made the mortising
> chisels Steve Knight carried. He's a tool maker and knows
> his stuff. I recall that he's gotten back into making his
> mortising chisels again after a hiatus. Can't find the new
> url but here's his old one. Perhaps he'll provide his new
> url
>
> www.paragoncode.com/toolmaking/
>
> I'm certain that when you got your chisel back it'd be
> sharper than you could make it and the back would be
> dead flat.
>
> As for his mortising chisels - well you can try one out
> when the lock miter joints are done :)
>
> charlie b

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
news:uN%[email protected]:

> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave
>

Dave,
If you want some SERIOUS chisels, drive on up to Alameda, and visit The
Japan Woodworker. Make certain you bring your high limit credit card,
though. They are rightly proud of their tools.

On the other hand, your grandchildren will be trying to decide who gets
them when you're gone....

Patriarch

I bought a Marples chisel twenty years ago that was in the same category as
yours. Looks nice but performs like pasta. I am glad you posted.
Dave
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<uN%[email protected]>...
>
> > I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> > the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> > Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> > was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> > saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> > to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
> >
> > I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> > What's up with these Marples?
>
> Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
> the first place?
>
> FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
> real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
> about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
>
>
> Chuck Vance

perhaps the quality of the one ProTouch that I purchased isn't the same
as your 30 year old blue chips, Mike.

dave

Mike Hide wrote:

> I have been using blue chip for 30 years and am quite happy with the
> product. My projects being rudimentary probably are not so demanding of my
> chisels as they are of Dave's..
>
> I suppose Marples must be either fooling a bunch of people or at least
> producing an acceptable product, after all they have only been doing it for
> a hundred years or so ....mjh
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> "Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>>I wasn't intending to chop deep mortises without getting dedicated
>>>mortising chisels, but what I'm trying to explain in this thread is that
>>>by cutting into red oak four times less than 3/16" deep, for testing the
>>>chisel, I found the edge destroyed. my Sears did the same thing and
>>>came away none the worse for wear. I don't intended to use a beveled
>>>edge chisel to chop inch deep mortises, but I should be able to tap the
>>>chisel into the wood to "mark" it.
>>
>> Fine. Buy Sears chisels then. Some of us will continue to use our
>>Marples chisels. And guess what? We will post about our own
>>experiences with them. And guess what? We might not agree with you.
>>Get used to it.
>>
>>
>>>Thanks for the snide comment.
>>
>> I'm glad you enjoyed it. I assumed that you must, seeing how often
>>you you beg for it.
>>
>>
>>>I didn't say I had the Bluechip chisels. they are Protouch.
>>
>> I know that. My mistake to include the words "Blue Chip" in my
>>previous post. But I have Blue Chips. And guess what? They're made
>>by the same company. And guess what? They perform about as well as I
>>would expect for a set that runs less than $30.
>>
>>
>>>Again, you aren't reading my posts closely. I know, I know, my posts
>>>don't deserve any attention...
>>
>> Not nearly as much as you seem to think they do.
>>
>>
>> Chuck Vance
>
>

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...

Just a couple of comments. Are these chisels actually mortising
chisels? If not, you might consider picking up a set of them for that
purpose. That said, you can get a special on a four chisel unpolished
Two Cherries bench chisel set in a wooden box for $75 at:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-5009050&Category_Code=TXQ1-2
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave
>

Dang, I hate it when that happens. Yeah, I should have remembered the way
the Rockwell hardness test goes. I was relying on my old memory... The
numbers were all generally close though.

They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC
number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is
where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17. They ran the chisels through
a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they
rated the toughness of the edge.

No mention of the chisel composition.

As I mentioned in another post, this review is now 4 years old and they only
tested 17 chisels out of hundreds (thousands?) available so it all has to be
taken with a grain of salt. I couldn't figure out any hard-and-fast rules
based on brand (e.g. Sears was tougher than many others), country of origin
(e.g. not all Japanese chisels rated high), or cost (e.g. several lower cost
chisels beat out higher cost chisels). Seemed to be something of a crap
shoot to find the "right" chisel.

--
Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Jim Wilson" <[email protected]> pointed out Larry's confusion plus
more...

I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.

Layne
ps, usual disclaimers apply.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:13 GMT, "Wm Gardner"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried that
>set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
>and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
>anyone out there taken the chance?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Bill

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
> performs the same cuts with nary a blemish??

Uh, no ... because you didn't say that. You said you have a 3/4"
Sears chisel that holds an edge nicely, but that you were using a 3/8"
Marples for cutting a mortise.

I don't know about you, but I don't use a 3/4" chisel to cut a 3/8"
mortise or vice versa.

> I decimated the edge on
> the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
> into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.

I have several recent-vintage Stanleys that I keep ground to fairly
steep angles. They work great for pounding into things. I keep my Blue
Chips sharpened at pretty low bevel-angles. Guess what? They don't
work so great for pounding into things. But they do work well for
paring cuts.


Chuck Vance

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top, mentioned
> on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and the
> "occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a hinge
> mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel instead
> of a bench chisel.

You use a hammer on your chisels when cutting hinge mortises?


Chuck Vance
Just say (tmPL) Well, that explains a lot.

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> I didn't use a hammer, Chuck. You aren't reading my posts very closely,
> are you? :)

I give them them as much attention as they deserve. (And in this
case, sadly, a lot more.)

In one sentence you mentioned that they were supposed to be able to
withstand mallet and hammer blows. In the next sentence you talked
about chopping hinge mortises.

Can you see how someone might logically infer that the two were related?

OK, fine ... you win. All Blue Chips are a piece of crap (despite
my experiences to the contrary). And you don't need mortising chisels
to chop mortises. And you should be able to do everything from opening
paintcans to paring a paper thin slice of endgrain with the same chisel.
And it should never get dull or chip. And you should be able to buy
it for less than $20. Happy now?


Chuck Vance

Lowell Holmes wrote:

> Another point of view. . . .
>
> When I made the rocking chair at Homestead Heritage, The class used nothing
> but blue handled Marples chisels. The chair has 42 M&T joints, all hand
> made. :-)
> I wonder how we managed that. There were 10 chairs made in that class.

You have my utmost respect. :-)

> Having said that, I have purchased some mortise chisels. I tend not to use
> them because the bench chisels are always out and always scalpel sharp. I
> learned to keep the stones out on the bench when working, and it is easy to
> touch up the edge when required. We learned to sharpen chisels and plane
> irons without grinders or honing jigs at Homestead Heritage.
> I've started using files to clean up the edges on damaged chisels ala The
> Furniture Doctor (George Grotz).
> I really think it is more a matter of technique than some realize.

Your technique is probably better than mine. I find that I need the
thick cross-section and square sides to make my mortises come out
halfway decent.

> If I were chopping mortises in mesquite though like you do, I'm sure my
> attitude would change. Has anybody here tried Jim Cummings instructions for
> tempering chisels with propane torches. I think I will try it on one of my
> really soft chisels (old Stanley Defiance) and report back.

Please do. While I don't know that I'll experiment much with the
metallurgical side of things, it might be interesting to see the results
and compare that back to the chisels we buy and see if we can draw
conclusions on how they were tempered. (Or why we report such wildly
different results with some of the same brands of chisels.)

> Woodworking is largely a matter of personal preferences. I'll spend $140 for
> a dovetail saw, and $200 for a hand plane, but I've never purchased a $100
> chisel.

Funny you should mention that. I guess I've figured mine are "good
enough", because I'm like you. I don't think I've spent more than $40
for a chisel, and that was for a big old 1-1/2" honker I bought when
building my bench.

But they still seem to do what I need them to do. Go figure. :-)


Chuck Vance

Larry, THANK YOU for this info! I started my subscription to FWW about
a year ago so that one isn't in my library. Nice to see that their test
ing bears out my very LIMITED experience with the Pro touch vs the one
Sears venerable chisel that has survived from the 70's.

Did they give a rating for "Best Buy"?

dave

Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote:

> I was just looking through some old FWW mags and ran across an article on
> chisels in the Dec/1999, issue 139. They looked at 17 different chisels and
> tested their hardness and toughness. It might be worth looking at if you
> have a copy although it's 4 years old now.
>
> FWIW, they ranked the Marples Blue Chip as coming in 16th out of the 17
> chisels tested, IOW almost dead last. Craftsman came in 9th. The chisels
> that tested best for toughness were White Steel ($32 for a 1/2" chisel)
> first, then Blue Steel ($38 for a 1/2" chisel), and in third was Iyori ($156
> for a set of 4 chisels).
>
> Double FWIW, the Craftsman rated better for toughness than Japan Woodworker
> (10th), Garrett Wade (11th), Robert Sorby Gilt-Edge (12th), Lee Valley
> (13th), Robert Sorby Octagonal (14th), Stanley 5002 (15th), Marples Blue
> Chip (16th), and Pfeil (17th).
>
> Again, this test is now 4 years old and they were only testing current
> models of chisels and they didn't test all models (e.g. Marples Protech),
> but maybe this helps explain why your Sears holds up better than your
> Marples.
>

I don't mind you questioning what I wrote, getting accurate info is more
important. Besides, I question people all the time so it's about time I get
questioned back. <g>

I don't think I said what I wanted to say very clearly. Let me try again.
They didn't come up with an overall rating of the chisels. What they did
was measure two things. Hardness and toughness. Hardness is an objective
measurement so they just provided the RC number. Toughness is more
subjective so after testing the tools they measured the roughness of the
edge and then provided a ranking of the chisels by roughness (i.e. their
definition of toughness). It was left to the reader to balance the two
measurements (actual harness measurement and the roughness ranking). They
made 9,500 (9 thousand 5 hundred, not 9 point 5) measurements across a 1/2"
chisel so I think that works out to about 1.3 microns. I earlier said it
was 9,500 measurements across a 1" chisel, but it was actually across a 1/2"
chisel.

Most of the chisels were close in hardness so that wasn't a determining
factor in my opinion. Ignoring the ergonomics of the various brands for a
minute leaves us with these two measurements to evaluate. Given a
particular hardness number (over 1/2 the chisels had an RC number between 59
and 61) then the FWW hardness factor would seem to be the determining
measurement. I understand your point that the two factors (hardness &
toughness) fight against each other. A kitchen spatula would rank very high
on the FWW toughness scale, but still couldn't cut anything, OTOH a ceramic
chisel might be hard but wouldn't be very tough. This is why they gave both
numbers. However, since the chisels scored roughly in the same hardness
band we're talking about similar materials.

As a point of interest (maybe?), the softest chisel only ranked 8th for
toughness rather than 1st as might be expected and the hardest chisel scored
second for toughness rather than last.

Now factor in cost, ease of sharpening and I give up, I'm just going to stic
k to the coolest looking chisels... At least THAT I can figure out.
--
Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Jim Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry C in Auburn, WA wrote...
>
> > They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty
> > straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the
RC
> > number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this
is
> > where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17.
>
> Wow. By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel
> would have rated highly, as it is extremely tough, although not at all
> hard, being typically HRC35 or below. Of course, the edge would fail by
> bending despite the toughness, so I am being a little facetious.
>
> > They ran the chisels through
> > a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1
> > micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data
they
> > rated the toughness of the edge.
>
> Wow, again. Those are some mighty big microns! (G) They're even bigger
> than tenths! Most microns, properly "micrometers," are about 0.00003937";
> 25,400 of 'em fit in an inch.
>
> > Seemed to be something of a crap shoot to find the "right" chisel.
>
> IME, that's exactly how it is "in real life." Thanks for the information
> on the article, Larry. I haven't seen it and wondered how they would
> compare the tools quantitatively. Please forgive me for picking on it a
> little bit. I don't mean to be giving you a hard time at all.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Jim

Charlie could not be more correct in his description of Jim Wilson & Jim's
work. I was able to sneak an order in earlier this year, and the chisels
Jim made for me are outstanding. Jim was also a pleasure to work with in
his handling of my order and the delays due to back orders and some other
glitches. The chisels Jim makes are well worth the money IMO.

Mike Dembroge


"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
> >
> > I'd send it to you, but I've gotten a refund on it already. :)
> >
> > Nice try, Jim!
> >
> > dave
> >
>
> In the event that anyone's unaware of who Jim Wilson is and
> why Dave missed a great opportunity - Jim made the mortising
> chisels Steve Knight carried. He's a tool maker and knows
> his stuff. I recall that he's gotten back into making his
> mortising chisels again after a hiatus. Can't find the new
> url but here's his old one. Perhaps he'll provide his new
> url
>
> www.paragoncode.com/toolmaking/
>
> I'm certain that when you got your chisel back it'd be
> sharper than you could make it and the back would be
> dead flat.
>
> As for his mortising chisels - well you can try one out
> when the lock miter joints are done :)
>
> charlie b

Most chisels tips have been de-tempered from the final grinding and
polishing processes at the factory.


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> you mean they are tipped with sh*t for steel but the rest of the tool is
> better??
>
> dave
>
> blabla wrote:
>
> > Did you grind off the first 1/8" to get to the good steel? I've got
Buck,
> > Ashley Isles, Marples and they all are the shits right out of the box.
Some
> > of the guys at the shop have 2 Cherries and they say thiers were good
right
> > out of the box, but I don't know if they were trying to chop oak or
> > something just as hard.
> >
> > "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
> >>performs the same cuts with nary a blemish?? I decimated the edge on
> >>the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
> >>into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.
> >>
> >>dave
> >>
> >>Conan the Librarian wrote:
> >>
> >>>Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > news:<uN%[email protected]>...
> >
> >>>
> >>>>I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> >>>>the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> >>>>Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's
edge
> >>>>was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> >>>>saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> >>>>to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
> >>>>
> >>>>I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> >>>>What's up with these Marples?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
> >>>the first place?
> >>>
> >>> FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
> >>>real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
> >>>about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Chuck Vance
> >>
> >
> >
>

While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried that
set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
anyone out there taken the chance?

Thanks in advance,
Bill

--

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
-Theodore Roosevelt


"Alan W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Dave,
> > If you want some SERIOUS chisels, drive on up to Alameda, and visit
The
> > Japan Woodworker. Make certain you bring your high limit credit
card,
> > though. They are rightly proud of their tools.
> >
> > On the other hand, your grandchildren will be trying to decide who
gets
> > them when you're gone....
> >
>
>
> I've been looking at just buying a couple of chisels from Japan
> Woodworker. My limited set of 1/4, 1/2, and 1" of cheap stanleys have
> seen only use of the smaller two. And they are better suited to glue
> line scraping than mortising.
>
> What does one need to spend on individual chisels to get a good
> mortising chisel? $30 $50 $150?
>
> Thanks for those who have used them.

>
> Dave,
> If you want some SERIOUS chisels, drive on up to Alameda, and visit The
> Japan Woodworker. Make certain you bring your high limit credit card,
> though. They are rightly proud of their tools.
>
> On the other hand, your grandchildren will be trying to decide who gets
> them when you're gone....
>


I've been looking at just buying a couple of chisels from Japan
Woodworker. My limited set of 1/4, 1/2, and 1" of cheap stanleys have
seen only use of the smaller two. And they are better suited to glue
line scraping than mortising.

What does one need to spend on individual chisels to get a good
mortising chisel? $30 $50 $150?

Thanks for those who have used them.

Hi Dave,

I have a set of the Marples Blue Chip and I'd rate them as "o.k.". A
reasonable value for the money, but they definitely require a bit more
diligent work to use regularly.

I subsequently purchased these:
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html/fine_tools/two_cherries/two_cherries.htm

(I got the 6 piece promotional boxed set).

They are MUCH higher quality than the Marples, and for $100, I think an even
better value. These promotional chisels aren't polished, but they are made
with the same steel as the "regular" two cherries chisels. If you want a
shiny chisel you can pay $65 more.

Anyway, that's my recommendation.

Mike

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:uN%[email protected]...
> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave
>

No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top, mentioned
on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and the
"occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a hinge
mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel instead
of a bench chisel.

dave

Joseph Crowe wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
>> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
>> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's
>> edge was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses!
>> That's saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and
>> then up to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
>
> Just a couple of comments. Are these chisels actually mortising
> chisels? If not, you might consider picking up a set of them for that
> purpose. That said, you can get a special on a four chisel unpolished
> Two Cherries bench chisel set in a wooden box for $75 at:
>
> http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-5009050&Category_Code=TXQ1-2
>
>
>>
>> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
>> What's up with these Marples?
>>
>> dave
>>
>

your point being that the chisels I bought are "paring"? I thought what
I got were bench chisels. certainly not firmer or mortise, but just as
certain they aren't paring, either.

dave

[email protected] wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>I used a dead blow mallet
>
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>I saw that, but that wasn't what I was saying. I never mentioned what
>>>to hit them with
>
>
> Still missing my point. <Sigh>
> Dave in Fairfax

chuck, chuck, chuck. I was TESTING the Sears to see that it could
handle the same wood under the same conditions. I wasn't doing a real
project!

dave

Conan The Librarian wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears
>> chisel performs the same cuts with nary a blemish??
>
>
> Uh, no ... because you didn't say that. You said you have a 3/4"
> Sears chisel that holds an edge nicely, but that you were using a 3/8"
> Marples for cutting a mortise.
>
> I don't know about you, but I don't use a 3/4" chisel to cut a 3/8"
> mortise or vice versa.
>
>> I decimated the edge on the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't
>> even get past 3/16" deep into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.
>
>
> I have several recent-vintage Stanleys that I keep ground to fairly
> steep angles. They work great for pounding into things. I keep my Blue
> Chips sharpened at pretty low bevel-angles. Guess what? They don't
> work so great for pounding into things. But they do work well for
> paring cuts.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
>

thanks for the confirmation. too bad they didn't work out for me; I
liked the handles!

dave

RB wrote:

> It's marketing hype. The tool is so soft it is all but worthless. I
> have a set that I let the "grandkids" play with. The others come from
> Japan.
>
> I called LN this week. Sometime this quarter they promise to have their
> chisels out.
>
> RB
>
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
>> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
>> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's
>> edge was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses!
>> That's saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and
>> then up to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>>
>> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
>> What's up with these Marples?
>>
>> dave
>>
>

Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
performs the same cuts with nary a blemish?? I decimated the edge on
the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.

dave

Conan the Librarian wrote:
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<uN%[email protected]>...
>
>
>>I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
>>the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
>>Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
>>was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
>>saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
>>to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>>
>>I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
>>What's up with these Marples?
>
>
> Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
> the first place?
>
> FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
> real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
> about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
>
>
> Chuck Vance

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:uN%[email protected]...
><snippage>
> What's up with these Marples?
>
You need to get a Marple BlueChip chisel. They are the ones we all say are good.

Myx

on a number of occations I have run into this- the first few
sharpenings of a new chisel don't last. I assume that it has to do
with the manufacturers being a bit agressive about the initial
grinding of the bevel and cooking the temper right at the edge.



On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:39:19 GMT, "blabla" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Did you grind off the first 1/8" to get to the good steel? I've got Buck,
>Ashley Isles, Marples and they all are the shits right out of the box. Some
>of the guys at the shop have 2 Cherries and they say thiers were good right
>out of the box, but I don't know if they were trying to chop oak or
>something just as hard.
>
>"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
>> performs the same cuts with nary a blemish?? I decimated the edge on
>> the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
>> into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.
>>
>> dave
>>
>> Conan the Librarian wrote:
>> > Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<uN%[email protected]>...
>> >
>> >
>> >>I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
>> >>the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
>> >>Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
>> >>was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
>> >>saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
>> >>to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>> >>
>> >>I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
>> >>What's up with these Marples?
>> >
>> >
>> > Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
>> > the first place?
>> >
>> > FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
>> > real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
>> > about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
>> >
>> >
>> > Chuck Vance
>>
>

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:57:22 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>Must be one hell of a hinge, if you have to chop a mortise 3/16" deep.


Yes, it would be one hell of a hinge and this would be the mark of a
hinge made by someone who gave a damn about how hinges should be made.

I've had the pleasure of working with a few mongers who grew such
hinges and they are a rare pleasure.


Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

I also have had the same experience . It should be noted that the honing a
ngle should vary according to the hardness of the material they are used on
, oak for instance would require a greater angle than say pine . In
particular mortise chisel edges really take beating that is why they are
more robust in design.

One other consideration is the old saying what you loose on the roundablouts
you gain on the swings , personally one has to weigh using a softer material
and consequently sharpening the tool more frequently against using a harder
material and sharpening it less frequently but the proceedure taking half
the day .

My SET of Marples blue chips ran me at the time $25 from Highland hardware
[it used to be somewhat of a specialty with them]. The UK pound is currently
higher against the dollar so I would expect them currently to be 10 to 15%
higher....mjh

--




"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<uN%[email protected]>...
>
> > I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> > the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> > Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> > was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> > saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> > to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
> >
> > I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> > What's up with these Marples?
>
> Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
> the first place?
>
> FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
> real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
> about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
>
>
> Chuck Vance

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:25:05 GMT, "Mike in Mystic"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I spent a fair amount of time flattening them with some 150 grit wet/dry
>sandpaper. I didn't time it exactly, but let's just say it took more than
>30 seconds but less than 5 minutes. As these things go, I'd say that they
>were pretty flat right out of the box.

Sounds like that to me, as well.

>Keep in mind, I only flattened the
>1-2 inches right near the edge.

As is all you need to.

Thanks!
Barry

guess you didn't read the insert that came with your Protouch?

dave

[email protected] wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>>No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top, mentioned
>>on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and the
>>"occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a hinge
>>mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel instead
>>of a bench chisel.
>
>
> Dave, I don't usually come in on these discussions, but this time I
> gotta. I've got some Blue Chips - they work fine as paring chisels.
> I've got some Pro-touches, they're for beating on stuff with, not the
> same thing at all. I've got one Sorby mortise chisel, a Keen Kutter
> corner chisel and a handful of old mortise chisels. Each one is for a
> different purpose. I'm glad that your old Stanley bench chisels will
> work as mortise chisels, but it isn't their purpose in life. Why not
> use the right tools, you'll be less upset with the results.
> Dave in Fairfax

While I agree with you in principle, budgets do eventually come into
play also. For the chisels you mentioned, the 1.5" (alone) is 1/2 the
price of the entire Grizzly set. Frankly this is more than I intended to
spend on chisels.

Don't misunderstand, I am not questioning the quality/price/value of the
higher end Japanese chisels, I was just hoping to get something of
reasonable quality for an affordable price. If these chisels are of low
quality, I will likely purchase the Freud set instead. Though I would
like Japanese chisels, I do not want a poor quality tool just because it
is Japanese.

Thanks for the advice (domo arigato),
Bill

--

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
-Theodore Roosevelt


<Layne> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've the chisels you mention, but have not tried them. Japanese are
> like any other tool when it comes to value. You usually get what you
> pay for. I wouldn't doubt that the chisels offered by Grizzly are
> okay, but they were probably made by lesser craftsmen. It takes an
> apprentice years to learn just how to work the metals so that the
> chisel has all the right working qualities. You might want to take a
> look at the Mastumura chisels offered by JapanWoodworker.com. You'll
> get a handcrafted Japanese chisel made by a bonafide master
> chiselmaker. They're a great value. Then you can drool over the other
> chisels like those made by Tasai. When you get to that level you're
> not just buying a tool you're buying a work of art.
>
> Layne
> ps, usual disclaimers apply.
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:13 GMT, "Wm Gardner"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >While we are on the subject of Japanese chisels, has anyone tried
that
> >set offered by Grizzly? From what you can tell in a catalog they look
> >and sound pretty good but the price seems too good to be true. Has
> >anyone out there taken the chance?
> >
> >Thanks in advance,
> >Bill
>

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:57:22 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>Must be one hell of a hinge, if you have to chop a mortise 3/16" deep.

Why not ? Not unreasonable for an old cast iron hinge.

If I were using plastic-handled Marples chisels (which I would hope
not to be, as they're low-end rubbish) then I'd expect a light hammer
to be the appropriate thing to drive them, and I wouldn't worry too
much over the bevel-edge / mortice chisel distinction.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

I know of the chisels you're talking about. Japanese tools are
inherently more expensive (shipping, duties, taxes, etc.). Thus, when
you do buy a "cheap" Japanese tool -- or even English tool -- you are
paying more for it.

The thing with the Japan Woodworker brand is you don't really know who
the maker is. It could be an apprentice or some factory shlep. At
least with the higher end tools that may cost only slightly more...and
sometimes a lot more...you know the individual maker spent years
learning their craft to make the best possible tool for you.

If I'm not mistaken Mastumura, who's chisels aren't exorbitantly
priced, is considered a national "living treasure" by the government
of Japan.

Layne

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:09:00 GMT, [email protected] (Adrian Mariano)
wrote:

>I got a cheap Japanese chisel (the Japan Woodworker brand) and I find
>that the edge chips out if I look at it the wrong way. It got
>frustrating enough that I relegated it to scraping paint and got
>something else to replace it. Hard to say if the Grizzly ones are
>good or not, but if they're really cheap I'd be nervous. (Unless you
>like sharpening your chisels all the time.)

"Jim Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Roy's right. I had to stop taking orders again in October. I was able to
> get a few hundred chisels out over the summer but had to shut down soon
> after, owing once again to lack of time. I sure love making tools, but
> haven't yet been able to set aside enough time to it to keep pace with
> demand. Unfortunately, I still have other commitments that prevent me
> from devoting all my time to tool making. Perhaps someday...

If the demand is that great, why not do it full time?
No or low profit?

Myx

Interestingly, Robert, over in the woodturner's group, complained about
the Marples not holding an edge, AND he prefers his Sears chisels... :)

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
>
> I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> What's up with these Marples?
>
> dave
>

SHARPEN a chisel?!? Damn ... I've just been moving them over to the
screwdriver rack when they get dull.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/23/04


"Mike Hide" wrote in message

> and consequently sharpening the tool more frequently against using a
harder
> material and sharpening it less frequently but the proceedure taking half
> the day .

Did you grind off the first 1/8" to get to the good steel? I've got Buck,
Ashley Isles, Marples and they all are the shits right out of the box. Some
of the guys at the shop have 2 Cherries and they say thiers were good right
out of the box, but I don't know if they were trying to chop oak or
something just as hard.

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chuck, did you miss the part where I mentioned that my old Sears chisel
> performs the same cuts with nary a blemish?? I decimated the edge on
> the Marples in just a few moments. I didn't even get past 3/16" deep
> into the wood. That's pretty pathetic.
>
> dave
>
> Conan the Librarian wrote:
> > Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<uN%[email protected]>...
> >
> >
> >>I just picked up 3 Marples protouch chisels, wasted my time to sharpen
> >>the 3/8" one and then proceeded to put chisel to wood; namely red oak.
> >>Before getting more than 4 sides of a mortise started the chisel's edge
> >>was so nicked that I could see it without my reading glasses! That's
> >>saying something. BTW, I sharpened it on 3 diamond stones and then up
> >>to around 5k+ papers. I used the Lee Valley honing guide...
> >>
> >>I've got a Sears chisel, 3/4" that holds an edge for quite a while.
> >>What's up with these Marples?
> >
> >
> > Why were you using a standard bevel-edge chisel to chop mortises in
> > the first place?
> >
> > FWIW, I've been using Blue Chips for several years now without any
> > real complaints. I also have some nicer chisels, but I've gotten
> > about what I expected from a $20 set of chisels.
> >
> >
> > Chuck Vance
>

In article <[email protected]>,
charlie b <[email protected]> wrote:

> In the event that anyone's unaware of who Jim Wilson is and
> why Dave missed a great opportunity - Jim made the mortising
> chisels Steve Knight carried. He's a tool maker and knows
> his stuff. I recall that he's gotten back into making his
> mortising chisels again after a hiatus.

I tried to order a set from him a couple of months ago. His response
was that he's back out again. He's finishing up the backlog of orders
he's got and not taking any new orders.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00116.asp

I bought bench chisels. this webpage says what you can use them for.

dave

Conan The Librarian wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> No they weren't mortising chisels. But they have a metal top,
>> mentioned on the package as being able to withstand mallet blows and
>> the "occasional" hammer blow! Besides, if I were to want to make a
>> hinge mortise, I can't believe I need to use a beefy mortising chisel
>> instead of a bench chisel.
>
>
> You use a hammer on your chisels when cutting hinge mortises?
>
>
> Chuck Vance
> Just say (tmPL) Well, that explains a lot.
>

I hope the steel is MUCH tougher in their other line. I can't believe
that my old sears chisel goes on and on with a sharp edge and I
literally wiped out the Marples edge (ground exactly the same way as the
Sears) in a few moments. I ran over to Sears to see what they have but
there are no 3/8" and they didn't have a separate 1/4" in stock so I'll
consider a better Marples or something else at Lee Valley.


Here is what one reviewer said about the Bluechips:
"
Don't be fooled. This chisels are not worth their price. I was given a
set two years ago. I never used them until three months ago. I was using
my old reliable set. I took this chisels out of the box and went to hone
them. Come to find out, the still is severly deformed. The facets are
totally out of place and you can not get a smooth bevel on
them---There's NO WAY you could double bevel these. I reground them
myself to as square as possible. No sooner than I did that, the half
inch chisel started breaking the corners! I did not blue the steel as I
use a Tormek sharpening system. Plus, I was using them without a
mallet---by hand! Cheap metal, cheap craftsmanship, poor quality! "

sounds like he had almost the same problem I did: the edge fell apart.

Other reviewers were more kind.

dave

dave

Myxylplyk wrote:

> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:uN%[email protected]...
>
>><snippage>
>>What's up with these Marples?
>>
>
> You need to get a Marple BlueChip chisel. They are the ones we all say are good.
>
> Myx
>
>

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:

> you mean they are tipped with sh*t for steel but the rest of the tool
> is better??

or got hot during grinding, as should not happen...

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

[email protected] (Alan W) writes:

>>
>> Dave,
>> If you want some SERIOUS chisels, drive on up to Alameda, and visit The

[...]

> I've been looking at just buying a couple of chisels from Japan
> Woodworker. My limited set of 1/4, 1/2, and 1" of cheap stanleys have
> seen only use of the smaller two. And they are better suited to glue
> line scraping than mortising.
>
> What does one need to spend on individual chisels to get a good
> mortising chisel? $30 $50 $150?

I have a 6mm mortising chisel from E.C. Emmerich (ECE) and am very
plaesed with it, although before the initial honing i had to re-grind
the bevel because it was slightly skewed, but 5 minutes on a coarse
cheap waterstone mended that. It cost me 23.50 EUR, including 16% VAT.

For "general" use i wouyld recommend cheap chinese HSS chisels as seen
here:
http://www.dick-gmbh.com/shop/prodausgtabfs.asp?index=ChineseChisels
or (if you want really wide ones) here:
http://www.dick-gmbh.com/shop/prodausgtabfs.asp?index=ChineseBroadChisels

They take an edge very well, are very sturdy and keep their edge
exceptionally well. They look a bit strange (especially the broad
ones), so you are not going to impress someone by their exceptional
beauty, but they are extremely useful and handy. Wish i had a complete
et of them and also that smaller sizes (most narrow is 12.5mm) were
available.



--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:

> wouldn't they be discolored? I use to harden chisels for automotive

Not necessarily, softening starts well before coloring (depending on
the steel type, of course).

> use. Worked great; heat 'em and quench 'em in oil.

But makes then brittle, you should temper them after that, there are
lots of web sites that tell you how. What do you use to heat them up?

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23