OT: Electrical Fire

On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:31:42 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:08:41 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>
>>>
>>>Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>>boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>>unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>
>> Your tool has a leak to ground.
>
>Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
>radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the 15
>amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time.

If that's the case it's not the GFCI tripping, rather the OC device tripping
(may be the same).

>Typically it only happens
>when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.

Sounds like an over-current trip.

>Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all. It
>use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
>So it is certainly a load thing.
>

"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I went to turn the pool pump on today and noticed the outlet the timer
> plugged in to was charred and black. I'm not 100% sure of the cause, but
> the important thing is the electrical box contained the fire and prevented
> it from spreading.
>
> I'm not sure of the exact cause (I suspect it was a combination of
> things),
> but the outlet shows the most char (the fire happened in the box) while
> the
> pump power cord was melted to the timer.
>
> I suppose I'll have to have an electrician come out on Monday. Anything I
> should ask them before accepting them?
>
> Puckdropper
> --

Any lightning in the area? Not a direct hit, mind you, but a jolt to the
ground that found its way to the pool circuit.

I had a similar situation a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure where the hit
was, but an X-1- module in the garage was burned, as was the receptacle it
was plugged into. Repaired that and found that the outside light fixture it
control was out. One bulb had the base welded into the socket so I replaced
the fixture. Doing so, If found a 3/16" hole in the downspout where there
was an arc from the lamp holder that was nearly touching it. Travelled
back to the main panel where it took out a breaker, AV receiver, and TV on
that circuit.

On Jul 6, 7:42=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> >On Jul 5, 6:47 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> >> >On Jul 4, 10:35 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >> On 7/4/2010 9:08 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> >> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(do=
t)com>
> >> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$=
32442
> >> >> >>> [email protected]:
>
> >> >> >>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>
> >> >> >>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective d=
evice
> >> >> >>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit whi=
ch was
> >> >> >>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>
> >> >> >>> That does make sense. I could see a partial short arcing and sn=
apping
> >> >> >>> for quite some time until something burns.
>
> >> >> >>> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? Th=
e outlet
> >> >> >>> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we mo=
ved in)
> >> >> >>> and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring befo=
re the
> >> >> >>> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>
> >> >> >> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. This may have been a hig=
h
> >> >> >> resistance
> >> >> >> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI wo=
uld catch
> >> >> >> but
> >> >> >> a GFCI would not.
>
> >> >> > Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my =
2
> >> >> > boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is =
not
> >> >> > unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>
> >> >> If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
> >> >> between hot and neutral If it's tripping under a load from a power =
tool
> >> >> you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>
> >> >i thought it was between the neutral and ground?
>
> >> Nope. Hot and neutral. If there is an imbalance between the hot and th=
e
> >> neutral, there is current going somewhere it shouldn't. This imbalance=
can be
> >> measured very accurately and the circuit "interrupted".
>
> >but the gfci should also monitor (and cut out on) any current flow at
> >all between the hot and ground - hence the term ground fault =A0- or am
> >i completely mistaken?
>
> Not quite. =A0Any current that "gazintas" the hot and doesn't "gazouta" t=
he
> neutral must be "flowing" through a fault to ground, hence the "ground fa=
ult".
> So yes, if you have a fault from the hot to the ground the GFCI will trip=
, but
> not because there is current in the ground, rather because the current in=
the
> neutral doesn't match, rather precisely, the current in the hot. =A0Of co=
urse
> this is AC, so I'm playing very loose with the highly technical terms,
> "gazinta" and "gazouta". =A0;-)
>
> A ground isn't even necessary for a GFCI to work properly. =A0In fact, on=
e of
> the important uses for GFCIs is a substitution for the safety ground in
> existing structures that have no safety ground. =A0It's not a replacement
> because there is no connection to the ground pin but it will protect in t=
he
> case of a fault.

thx for the info!!!
shelly

On Jul 5, 6:47=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
> >On Jul 4, 10:35=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 7/4/2010 9:08 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> >> > <[email protected]> =A0wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)c=
om>
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> =A0wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$=
32442
> >> >>> [email protected]:
>
> >> >>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>
> >> >>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective devi=
ce
> >> >>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which =
was
> >> >>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>
> >> >>> That does make sense. =A0I could see a partial short arcing and sn=
apping
> >> >>> for quite some time until something burns.
>
> >> >>> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? =A0Th=
e outlet
> >> >>> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved=
in)
> >> >>> and might have failed on. =A0OTOH, if the arcing was occuring befo=
re the
> >> >>> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>
> >> >> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. =A0This may have been a hig=
h
> >> >> resistance
> >> >> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would=
catch
> >> >> but
> >> >> a GFCI would not.
>
> >> > Not always the case , =A0I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my =
2
> >> > boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. =A0It is =
not
> >> > unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>
> >> If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
> >> between hot and neutral =A0If it's tripping under a load from a power =
tool
> >> you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>
> >i thought it was between the neutral and ground?
>
> Nope. =A0Hot and neutral. =A0If there is an imbalance between the hot and=
the
> neutral, there is current going somewhere it shouldn't. =A0This imbalance=
can be
> measured very accurately and the circuit "interrupted". =A0

but the gfci should also monitor (and cut out on) any current flow at
all between the hot and ground - hence the term ground fault - or am
i completely mistaken?

shelly

"Martin H. Eastburn" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> My suspect is a loose wire (due to heat of the day or vibration) and
> arcing did the rest.
>
> Martin
>
> Martin H. Eastburn

I took the timer apart, and think I've found a contributer. The timer
outlet connected via 6" long wires with 16 gauge wire. The hot wire
shows a significant amount of melting (plastic completely removed) while
the nuetral and ground wires are fine.

Once I get some daylight, I'll take the outlet apart and look around
there.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Puckdropper" wrote:

>I went to turn the pool pump on today and noticed the outlet the
>timer
> plugged in to was charred and black. I'm not 100% sure of the
> cause, but
> the important thing is the electrical box contained the fire and
> prevented
> it from spreading.
>
> I'm not sure of the exact cause (I suspect it was a combination of
> things),
> but the outlet shows the most char (the fire happened in the box)
> while the
> pump power cord was melted to the timer.

------------------------
Classic description of an arcing ground fault.

The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
probably a conductor that melted thru.

Consider yourself lucky.

During my career, had a customer who lost a 1,200 amp, 480V
switchboard the same way when a rat touched a hot bus bar and case
ground at the same time, on a cold winter's evening.

The plant was down almost a month while a replacement switchboard was
built, then installed and fire repairs were made.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
[email protected]:

> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>
> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
> probably a conductor that melted thru.

That does make sense. I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
for quite some time until something burns.

Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? The outlet
was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
outlet it would have done no good to trip.

> Consider yourself lucky.

I do, but want to point out that the outlet box was responsible for
stopping the spread of fire.

We've got space to mount the electrical box on its own post 6-18" away
from the deck, so if something happens again a fire would have to travel
that far to catch the deck.

*snip*
>
> Lew

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Puckdropper" wrote:

> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? The
> outlet
> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved
> in)
> and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before
> the
> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
------------------------------
You have answered your own question.

One of the advantages of having a GFCI c'bkr as opposed to a GFCI
receptacle.

Lew


Lew

Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> You might ask for references, hourly prices, quote for the job, and
> what they feel is the cause of the failure. It could have been
> something as simple as a loose connection at the outlet which built up
> enough resistance that heat built up and caused the meltdown. Was it
> the proper metal-canned high-wattage timer or a cheap plastic plugin,
> Pucky? What size pool/pump?
>

The timer was a $15-20 outdoor timer rated at 15A for all types of loads.
The pump is a 1.5 horse motor, with 15A on the motor information sticker.

I've looked in to better timers, and there's one for somewhere around $70
that can handle up to 24A. That's more than the circuit breaker.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


>
> Any lightning in the area? Not a direct hit, mind you, but a jolt to
> the ground that found its way to the pool circuit.
>
*snip*

No lightning anywhere around for the last several days. Not even a drop of
rain (pardon my use of that 4-letter word).

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Puckdropper" wrote:

> The timer was a $15-20 outdoor timer rated at 15A for all types of
> loads.

> The pump is a 1.5 horse motor, with 15A on the motor information
> sticker.

-----------------------------
IOW, you're basic POS resi device.

You need a timer with a 2HP@120V rated set of contacts.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c317362$0$4745
[email protected]:

>
> "Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> The timer was a $15-20 outdoor timer rated at 15A for all types of
>> loads.
>
>> The pump is a 1.5 horse motor, with 15A on the motor information
>> sticker.
>
> -----------------------------
> IOW, you're basic POS resi device.
>
> You need a timer with a 2HP@120V rated set of contacts.
>
> Lew
>

Yeah, basically. It said something on the back about 15A motor load
rating, but the outlet in the timer was 16 gauge wire.

I'm looking at replacing it with this timer:
http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-T101R-120-Volt-Mechanical-
Outdoor/dp/B000BVZB3E/ref=dp_cp_ob_hi_title_1

I have to replace the cord on the pump motor anyway, so it's no big deal
to cut the plug off and wire it in to the timer box.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Puckdropper" wrote:

> I'm looking at replacing it with this timer:
> http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-T101R-120-Volt-Mechanical-
> Outdoor/dp/B000BVZB3E/ref=dp_cp_ob_hi_title_1
--------------------------------------
Intermatic has been around forever, good choice.

You don't need it now, but I'd get a 2 pole device rather than a 1
pole.

Down the road, you might want this timer for 240V service.

Lew

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:47:51 -0700, Mike M <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:31:42 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:08:41 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>>>boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>>>unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>>
>>> Your tool has a leak to ground.
>>
>>Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
>>radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the 15
>>amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only happens
>>when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
>>Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all. It
>>use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
>>So it is certainly a load thing.
>>
>A motor load like a compressor can trip a GFCI. If you get something
>with a leading or lagging current the device can detect the difference
>between legs.

That's still leakage but if so, replace the GFCI. Older ones had this issue
but it's been fixed with more recent units.

On Jul 4, 10:35=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/4/2010 9:08 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> =A0wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> =A0wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$324=
42
> >>> [email protected]:
>
> >>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>
> >>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
> >>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
> >>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>
> >>> That does make sense. =A0I could see a partial short arcing and snapp=
ing
> >>> for quite some time until something burns.
>
> >>> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? =A0The o=
utlet
> >>> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in=
)
> >>> and might have failed on. =A0OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before =
the
> >>> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>
> >> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. =A0This may have been a high
> >> resistance
> >> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would ca=
tch
> >> but
> >> a GFCI would not.
>
> > Not always the case , =A0I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
> > boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. =A0It is not
> > unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>
> If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
> between hot and neutral =A0If it's tripping under a load from a power too=
l
> you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>
>
>
>
i thought it was between the neutral and ground?
shelly

My suspect is a loose wire (due to heat of the day or vibration) and
arcing did the rest.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 7/3/2010 8:44 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> I went to turn the pool pump on today and noticed the outlet the timer
> plugged in to was charred and black. I'm not 100% sure of the cause, but
> the important thing is the electrical box contained the fire and prevented
> it from spreading.
>
> I'm not sure of the exact cause (I suspect it was a combination of things),
> but the outlet shows the most char (the fire happened in the box) while the
> pump power cord was melted to the timer.
>
> I suppose I'll have to have an electrician come out on Monday. Anything I
> should ask them before accepting them?
>
> Puckdropper

On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:31:42 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:08:41 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>
>>>
>>>Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>>boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>>unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>
>> Your tool has a leak to ground.
>
>Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
>radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the 15
>amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only happens
>when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
>Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all. It
>use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
>So it is certainly a load thing.
>
A motor load like a compressor can trip a GFCI. If you get something
with a leading or lagging current the device can detect the difference
between legs.

Mike M

"Mike M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:31:42 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:

>>
>>Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
>>radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the
>>15
>>amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only
>>happens
>>when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
>>Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all.
>>It
>>use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
>>So it is certainly a load thing.
>>
> A motor load like a compressor can trip a GFCI. If you get something
> with a leading or lagging current the device can detect the difference
> between legs.
>
> Mike M

I believe the compressor coming on indeed is when the GFCI trips. Typically
I try to turn the compressor off if I am going to be running much at the
same time.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
>>[email protected]:
>>
>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>>>
>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>>
>>That does make sense. I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
>>for quite some time until something burns.
>>
>>Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? The outlet
>>was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
>>and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
>>outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>
> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. This may have been a high
> resistance
> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would catch
> but
> a GFCI would not.

Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote
> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>
> Consider yourself lucky.
>
> During my career, had a customer who lost a 1,200 amp, 480V
> switchboard the same way when a rat touched a hot bus bar and case
> ground at the same time, on a cold winter's evening.

Was the rat OK? PETA wants to know about the poor fellow.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:31:42 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:


>>Typically it only happens
>>when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
>
> Sounds like an over-current trip.


Correct, but mostly only affects the GFI outlet. Bigger demands will
generelly trip the circuit breaker.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 7/5/2010 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>>> Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>>> boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>>> unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>>
>>> Your tool has a leak to ground.
>>
>> Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have
>> the
>> radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the
>> 15
>> amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only
>> happens
>> when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
>> Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all.
>> It
>> use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
>> So it is certainly a load thing.
>
> There's a good chance that if it's done that as much as this one has it is
> no longer providing ground fault protection at all.
>
> When you replace it look for one with "smartlock" which won't allow a
> reset if the receptacle is not functioning as designed. Hospital grade all
> have that now, IIRC ... spendy, but worth the price for those areas where
> you really need gfci protection.


It happens probably once each summer if I am not careful with the loads and
if the day is HOT enough. More heat, more fans running. ;~)

The test button still makes it trip instantly.

I'll look into the smartlock one if I have any pressing problems.

On 7/5/2010 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:

>>> Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>> boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>> unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>
>> Your tool has a leak to ground.
>
> Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
> radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the 15
> amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only happens
> when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
> Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all. It
> use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
> So it is certainly a load thing.

There's a good chance that if it's done that as much as this one has it
is no longer providing ground fault protection at all.

When you replace it look for one with "smartlock" which won't allow a
reset if the receptacle is not functioning as designed. Hospital grade
all have that now, IIRC ... spendy, but worth the price for those areas
where you really need gfci protection.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:08:41 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>>> wrote:
>>>

>>
>>Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>
> Your tool has a leak to ground.

Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the 15
amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only happens
when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all. It
use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
So it is certainly a load thing.

Sorry but a GFCI breaker only detects differences between current in the hot
and neutral.

Phase angle and waveform distortion cannot and donnot cause a GFI or GFCI
breaker to detect faults to ground. What is detected in one leg is the same
detection circuit in the other leg of the wiring because it is the same
sensing mechanism.

Inductive (motors and coil) loads starting or stopping can give high voltage
kicks (high voltage spikes) and one side is tied to ground via the street
transformer and other loads to neutral in different locations / circuits in
your house. The other line (neutral usually) of the device acting up gets a
high voltage spike that can punch through insulation weak spots and trip the
GFI detection circuit. Drywaller's routers nick the insulation on wiring
inside metal boxes and dust (where would that be in a woodshop?) combined
with moisture (humid weather lately?) bring out the best in our wiring
integrity.


"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I believe the compressor coming on indeed is when the GFCI trips. Typically
I try to turn the compressor off if I am going to be running much at the
same time


"Mike M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:31:42 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:

>>
>>Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
>>radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the
>>15
>>amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only
>>happens
>>when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
>>Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all.
>>It
>>use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
>>So it is certainly a load thing.
>>
> A motor load like a compressor can trip a GFCI. If you get something
> with a leading or lagging current the device can detect the difference
> between legs.
>
> Mike M

.

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 08:28:50 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote the following:

>
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote
>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>>
>> Consider yourself lucky.
>>
>> During my career, had a customer who lost a 1,200 amp, 480V
>> switchboard the same way when a rat touched a hot bus bar and case
>> ground at the same time, on a cold winter's evening.
>
>Was the rat OK? PETA wants to know about the poor fellow.

Riddle me this:

How do you lose a 1,200A/480V switchboard and NOT lose the rat, Ed?
Hell, it was so crispified, Colonel Sanders couldn't even use it over
at Kentucky Fried Rat.

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 22:53:38 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote the following:

>
>"Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> The timer was a $15-20 outdoor timer rated at 15A for all types of
>> loads.
>
>> The pump is a 1.5 horse motor, with 15A on the motor information
>> sticker.
>
>-----------------------------
>IOW, you're basic POS resi device.
>
>You need a timer with a 2HP@120V rated set of contacts.

INDUCTIVE-rated horsies!

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

On 05 Jul 2010 05:09:29 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote the following:

>Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> You might ask for references, hourly prices, quote for the job, and
>> what they feel is the cause of the failure. It could have been
>> something as simple as a loose connection at the outlet which built up
>> enough resistance that heat built up and caused the meltdown. Was it
>> the proper metal-canned high-wattage timer or a cheap plastic plugin,
>> Pucky? What size pool/pump?
>>
>
>The timer was a $15-20 outdoor timer rated at 15A for all types of loads.
>The pump is a 1.5 horse motor, with 15A on the motor information sticker.
>
>I've looked in to better timers, and there's one for somewhere around $70
>that can handle up to 24A. That's more than the circuit breaker.

An outdoor pump should have a hardwired timer which can handle a
higher amperage than any plug-in style.

http://fwd4.me/Vjo 240v
http://fwd4.me/Vjp 120v
http://fwd4.me/Vjq cheaper digital 120v

Ask the electrician. He probably has one in the truck with him or can
bring one.

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

Your wiring has a leak to ground.

When you shut off the power tool they generate high voltage spikes on your
wiring and the high voltage spike finds the nick in the insulation and the
GFCI sees it and does it's thing. This soculd be in the tool also.


WTF are you doing sharing a GFCI in your bathroom with the garage and
kitchen?...LOL

Nobody ever use a hairdryer while your engine block heater cuts in or a
kettle gets plugged in?


"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.

On 7/4/2010 9:08 PM, Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]> wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>>>>
>>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>>>
>>> That does make sense. I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
>>> for quite some time until something burns.
>>>
>>> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? The outlet
>>> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
>>> and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
>>> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>>
>> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. This may have been a high
>> resistance
>> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would catch
>> but
>> a GFCI would not.
>
> Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
> boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
> unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.

If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
between hot and neutral If it's tripping under a load from a power tool
you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>
>

On 7/5/2010 9:31 AM, Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:08:41 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>
>>>
>>> Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>>> boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>>> unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>
>> Your tool has a leak to ground.
>
> Apparently all of them do, and it only happens on hot days when I have the
> radio, fan, dust collector, air compressor and what ever tool pushes the 15
> amp circuit past it's limit on at the same time. Typically it only happens
> when the compressor decides to cycle with all this other stuff running.
> Have fewer of them on in any combination and it does not happen at all. It
> use to be that cutting a thick board on my smaller TS would do the trick.
> So it is certainly a load thing.

Is it the GFCI or the breaker that is tripping?

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:08:41 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
>>>[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>>>>
>>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>>>
>>>That does make sense. I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
>>>for quite some time until something burns.
>>>
>>>Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? The outlet
>>>was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
>>>and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
>>>outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>>
>> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. This may have been a high
>> resistance
>> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would catch
>> but
>> a GFCI would not.
>
>Not always the case , I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets. It is not
>unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.

Your tool has a leak to ground.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

>On Jul 5, 6:47 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:
>> >On Jul 4, 10:35 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> On 7/4/2010 9:08 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> >> > <[email protected]>  wrote in message
>> >> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> >> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]>  wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
>> >> >>> [email protected]:
>>
>> >> >>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>>
>> >> >>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>> >> >>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>> >> >>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>>
>> >> >>> That does make sense.  I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
>> >> >>> for quite some time until something burns.
>>
>> >> >>> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs?  The outlet
>> >> >>> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
>> >> >>> and might have failed on.  OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
>> >> >>> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>>
>> >> >> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground.  This may have been a high
>> >> >> resistance
>> >> >> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would catch
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> a GFCI would not.
>>
>> >> > Not always the case ,  I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>> >> > boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets.  It is not
>> >> > unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>
>> >> If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
>> >> between hot and neutral  If it's tripping under a load from a power tool
>> >> you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>>
>> >i thought it was between the neutral and ground?
>>
>> Nope.  Hot and neutral.  If there is an imbalance between the hot and the
>> neutral, there is current going somewhere it shouldn't.  This imbalance can be
>> measured very accurately and the circuit "interrupted".  
>
>but the gfci should also monitor (and cut out on) any current flow at
>all between the hot and ground - hence the term ground fault - or am
>i completely mistaken?

Not quite. Any current that "gazintas" the hot and doesn't "gazouta" the
neutral must be "flowing" through a fault to ground, hence the "ground fault".
So yes, if you have a fault from the hot to the ground the GFCI will trip, but
not because there is current in the ground, rather because the current in the
neutral doesn't match, rather precisely, the current in the hot. Of course
this is AC, so I'm playing very loose with the highly technical terms,
"gazinta" and "gazouta". ;-)

A ground isn't even necessary for a GFCI to work properly. In fact, one of
the important uses for GFCIs is a substitution for the safety ground in
existing structures that have no safety ground. It's not a replacement
because there is no connection to the ground pin but it will protect in the
case of a fault.

On 05 Jul 2010 08:55:13 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote the following:

>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c317362$0$4745
>[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "Puckdropper" wrote:
>>
>>> The timer was a $15-20 outdoor timer rated at 15A for all types of
>>> loads.
>>
>>> The pump is a 1.5 horse motor, with 15A on the motor information
>>> sticker.
>>
>> -----------------------------
>> IOW, you're basic POS resi device.
>>
>> You need a timer with a 2HP@120V rated set of contacts.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
>Yeah, basically. It said something on the back about 15A motor load
>rating, but the outlet in the timer was 16 gauge wire.
>
>I'm looking at replacing it with this timer:
>http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-T101R-120-Volt-Mechanical-
>Outdoor/dp/B000BVZB3E/ref=dp_cp_ob_hi_title_1
>
>I have to replace the cord on the pump motor anyway, so it's no big deal
>to cut the plug off and wire it in to the timer box.

There ya go! Perfect.

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

On 04 Jul 2010 01:44:57 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote the following:

>I went to turn the pool pump on today and noticed the outlet the timer
>plugged in to was charred and black. I'm not 100% sure of the cause, but
>the important thing is the electrical box contained the fire and prevented
>it from spreading.
>
>I'm not sure of the exact cause (I suspect it was a combination of things),
>but the outlet shows the most char (the fire happened in the box) while the
>pump power cord was melted to the timer.
>
>I suppose I'll have to have an electrician come out on Monday. Anything I
>should ask them before accepting them?

You might ask for references, hourly prices, quote for the job, and
what they feel is the cause of the failure. It could have been
something as simple as a loose connection at the outlet which built up
enough resistance that heat built up and caused the meltdown. Was it
the proper metal-canned high-wattage timer or a cheap plastic plugin,
Pucky? What size pool/pump?

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

>On Jul 4, 10:35 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7/4/2010 9:08 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > <[email protected]>  wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >>> "Lew Hodgett"<[email protected]>  wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
>> >>> [email protected]:
>>
>> >>>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>>
>> >>>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>> >>>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>> >>>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>>
>> >>> That does make sense.  I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
>> >>> for quite some time until something burns.
>>
>> >>> Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs?  The outlet
>> >>> was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
>> >>> and might have failed on.  OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
>> >>> outlet it would have done no good to trip.
>>
>> >> A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground.  This may have been a high
>> >> resistance
>> >> or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would catch
>> >> but
>> >> a GFCI would not.
>>
>> > Not always the case ,  I have a GFCI in my bathroom, it covers my 2
>> > boathrooms, out door outlets, kitchen, and garage outlets.  It is not
>> > unusual for that thing to trip under a load form a power tool.
>>
>> If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
>> between hot and neutral  If it's tripping under a load from a power tool
>> you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>i thought it was between the neutral and ground?

Nope. Hot and neutral. If there is an imbalance between the hot and the
neutral, there is current going somewhere it shouldn't. This imbalance can be
measured very accurately and the circuit "interrupted".

On 04 Jul 2010 07:53:23 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4c301bf0$0$32442
>[email protected]:
>
>> Classic description of an arcing ground fault.
>>
>> The fault current was less than the rating of the protective device
>> which allowed it to continue until it reached open circuit which was
>> probably a conductor that melted thru.
>
>That does make sense. I could see a partial short arcing and snapping
>for quite some time until something burns.
>
>Isn't the GFCI supposed to detect and trip when this occurs? The outlet
>was an older GFCI (at least 3 years old, it was here when we moved in)
>and might have failed on. OTOH, if the arcing was occuring before the
>outlet it would have done no good to trip.

A GFCI only trips on a fault to ground. This may have been a high resistance
or intermittent connection, like a loose screw, which an AFCI would catch but
a GFCI would not.

>> Consider yourself lucky.
>
>I do, but want to point out that the outlet box was responsible for
>stopping the spread of fire.

That's why they're required. ;-)

>We've got space to mount the electrical box on its own post 6-18" away
>from the deck, so if something happens again a fire would have to travel
>that far to catch the deck.

If it makes you feel better. An electrical fire isn't likely to get out of a
weatherproof box before the breaker trips.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT), [email protected] wrote:

>> >> If you want to be precise, a GFCI trips on an imbalance in currents
>> >> between hot and neutral  If it's tripping under a load from a power tool
>> >> you really should find the leakage path and fix it.
>>
>> >i thought it was between the neutral and ground?
>>
>> Nope.  Hot and neutral.  If there is an imbalance between the hot and the
>> neutral, there is current going somewhere it shouldn't.  This imbalance can be
>> measured very accurately and the circuit "interrupted".  
>
>but the gfci should also monitor (and cut out on) any current flow at
>all between the hot and ground - hence the term ground fault - or am
>i completely mistaken?
>
>shelly

No need to monitor current flow between hot and ground.
If current flow between hot and neutral is not equal then it is going
somewhere it shoud NOT.

Hence a GFCI works with no metal ground wire in the set up.

If the currents are not equal then TURN OFF.

Simple.

Of course there are various sensitivities for various purposes and in
different juristictions.

Some trip at 5ma and some at 30ma and I am sure there are others.

John G.

Lightening?

Puckdropper wrote:
> I went to turn the pool pump on today and noticed the outlet the timer
> plugged in to was charred and black. I'm not 100% sure of the cause, but
> the important thing is the electrical box contained the fire and prevented
> it from spreading.
>
> I'm not sure of the exact cause (I suspect it was a combination of things),
> but the outlet shows the most char (the fire happened in the box) while the
> pump power cord was melted to the timer.
>
> I suppose I'll have to have an electrician come out on Monday. Anything I
> should ask them before accepting them?
>
> Puckdropper