Dust Collector Nightmare HELP!!!

Downtown Atlanta. I looked at some of the smaller duct and the spiral
duct is a lot smoother than I expected. In other words I was wrong
about the stuff being leaky and rough.

I don't what I will do with it. It is a Torrit with at least 4 dust
bags but may have more bags. I just forget how many. It also uses two
55 gallon drums for large chip collection. You need about 10 feet of
height to install the beast. I think it is a Model 230-5fb-255. Maybe
I can trade it for a good size Jet DC and some cash.

Greg G. wrote:

>Jim Behning said:
>
>>Better, faster for duct work. You can do some real covering up of
>>stuff with the mastic. I just find it easier to work with. Hey if you
>>want you can come over and help me strike a dust collection system. It
>>can't be but 15 miles from your house. Nothing more fun that years of
>>dust accumulated on the top of duct work. Or taking down 6 foot long
>>dust bags which probably had not been cleaned since I left the place
>>over 6 years ago.
>
>I'm familiar with mastic sealant, but the last reference I saw in this
>thread was M&J's reference to blue lined pipe at some exorbitant
>price. Maybe I missed a few messages in between... :-\
>
>You wouldn't happen to be removing this DC from a place in Austell?
>I snagged a bunch of leftover plywood from a cabinet shop there when
>they closed up a few years ago. Mostly used for shop jigs and such.
>
>Helping might be an interesting experience - who gets the DC? ;-)
>What part of town are you/is this in and when are you removing it?
>BYODM? (Bring Your Own Dust Mask) ;-)
>
>
>Greg G.

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
>in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
>blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
>complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
>someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
>advance.
>

You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
spiral pipe.

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:42:15 GMT, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
>>>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
>>>in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
>>>blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
>>>complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
>>>someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
>>>advance.
>>>
>>
>> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
>>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>>spiral pipe.
>>

>I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
>used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
>the flow I would expect.

This is true with plastic flex pipe. The metal spiral pipe I'm talking
about is smooth on the inside. Like:
<http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PSI&Product_Code=N-BC05%2F5&Category_Code=ALL5>
This type of ductwork has very low static pressure loss.


The kind I bought is lined with goretex on the inside.

The spreadsheet on Bill Penz's website:
<http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm> also supports this.
Anecdotally, I know that the metal ductwork with my 2 hp Woodtek system
greatly improved the performance of my system vs. what I had set up
previously. The key is making sure the system is well sealed with silicone
seal. As I said, at least with the ductwork I got, there are no leaks due
to the gore sealing.


> It had 6 or 8 dust bags and made all kinds of
>noise but not enough volume. You get all kinds of leakage from the
>little joints, internal turbulance from the rough texture. I would
>rather see 4 inch pvc than 5 inch spiral metal. I guess I would have
>to do some research to support my position but I know that all the
>duct mastic I added to that spiral system did little to increase the
>flow. Yes the system had blast gates and I cleaned the filter bags.
>

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:18:41 GMT, Jim Behning
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:42:15 GMT, Jim Behning
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
... snip
>>>>
>>>> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>>>>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
>>>>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>>>>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>>>>spiral pipe.
>>>>
>>
>>>I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
>>>used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
>>>the flow I would expect.
>>
>> This is true with plastic flex pipe. The metal spiral pipe I'm talking
>>about is smooth on the inside. Like:
>><http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PSI&Product_Code=N-BC05%2F5&Category_Code=ALL5>
>>This type of ductwork has very low static pressure loss.
>>
>>
>> The kind I bought is lined with goretex on the inside.
>>
... snip

>I am striking that old collection system I was talking about this
>week. I shall inspect the inside of the metal spiral ductwork. I still
>suspect it is not as smoothand leakproof as pvc.
>
>Duct mastic is a whole lot less expensive then caulk and installs much
>faster. Just brush it on.
>
>Now you have me curious. What duct has a gore lining and do you have a
>link?

I don't have a link, I bought mine locally (in Tucson) from a
manufacturer who actually makes the stuff. FWIW:

Metal Manufacturing Company
4795 South Julian Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85714
(520) 748-1117

I also got my elbows and y's from them as well.

The lining is a blueish tint and seems reasonably smooth as well as
serving as a seal for the seams.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 02:52:52 -0400, Greg G. wrote:

>Jim Behning said:
>
>>Better, faster for duct work. You can do some real covering up of
>>stuff with the mastic. I just find it easier to work with. Hey if you
>>want you can come over and help me strike a dust collection system. It
>>can't be but 15 miles from your house. Nothing more fun that years of
>>dust accumulated on the top of duct work. Or taking down 6 foot long
>>dust bags which probably had not been cleaned since I left the place
>>over 6 years ago.
>
>I'm familiar with mastic sealant, but the last reference I saw in this
>thread was M&J's reference to blue lined pipe at some exorbitant
>price. Maybe I missed a few messages in between... :-\
>

??? Exhorbitant price? I never mentioned what I paid for the pipe.
However, just to set the record straight: 4" was $10.13 per 10 foot
section, 5" was $9.16 per 10 foot section. 5" was cheaper because I bought
10 of them and only two 4" pipes. I thought those were pretty reasonable
prices.

When I did mine, I realized that every tool almost has a 4" collection
hood. This is because when DC's were introduced to the home WW'er, they
were 4" to begin with and the after thought of dust hoods were also made
4" to match the DC input. When I changed the size of the collection
hoods on my tools there was no affect on the dust collection process.

Here's a note. To start with, I was using a 4" line into the
collection hood of my planer which went from 4" round to a 4" square.
This meant that there was 12.56 sq in. area where the air from the dust
collector was coming from was being drawn from a 16 sq in area hood.
This meant that before anything could be done, there was a 25% drop in
the efficiency of the DC dust collection when it was hooked up because
of the dust hood design. When a 2.5 inch line was made as the DC line
there was a 7.85 sq in suction area from the same 16 sq in. hood, which
made a less than a 50% loss. When the hood was redesigned to a 8.2 sq
in suction area, the dust from the new hood rushes from the planner as
fast as if you were picking the dust from the floor. Thus the hoods of
all tools were redesigned to be a better comparison from the vacuum line
to the hood. Now, even a shop vac would work well on my planner.

--
Woody


Check out my Web Page at:

http://community-1.webtv.net/WoodworkerJoe/WoodworkerJoesInfo

Where you will find:

******** How My Shop Works ******** 5-21-03

* * * Build a $20 DC Separator Can Lid. 1-14-03
* * * DC Relay Box Building Plans. 1-14-03
* * * The Bad Air Your Breath Everyday.1-14-03
* * * What is a Real Woodworker? 2-8-03
* * * Murphy's Woodworking Definitions. 2-8-03
* * * Murphy's Woodworking Laws. 4-6-03
* * * What is the true meaning of life? 1-14-03
* * * Woodworker Shop Signs. 2-8-03

Hi Bill,

I can't argue with your figures, but you might be over analyzing this.
If you have a blast gate at each tool, any normal DC will pobably do
the job. Although I sometimes wish I had a bigger unit, the 1 HP Penn
State model that I have does a very good job through 4" PVC from 5
different machines throughout my basement. Don't forget the ground with
PVC.

Lou

In article <%[email protected]>, Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
> different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
> in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
> blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
> complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
> someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
> advance.
>
>

<snip>

> You may be in the wrong department looking for the PVC. Your cheapest
> type will be DRAIN pipe, not supply water pipe, it's much thinner. I
> have seen it at Loews and Home Depot for around $4 per 10' length.

This is what I used, mainly because it provided a better (tighter) fit
with the black PVC bends which I picked up at the local WW store.

They work fine.

Lou

They should have 5" too... it's code in most areas for second floor heating
applications (Ontario for sure)
-Brian

"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
:
: > They sell it at both Home Depot and Lowes in the plumbing department.
: > I've
: > never been in one that DIDN'T sell it.
: >
:
: You know what, you are right. I have two old propane furnaces I was going
to
: use for my shop heat, and they require 5" -- I think THAT was the one I
: couldn't find, now that you mention it....so my dust collection needs are
: met. :) I see a lot of catalogs that show the flexible plastic see thru
: stuff hanging on hooks -- I can't imagine that this works very well.
Sorry,
: didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back to your regularly scheduled
program.
:
:

I don't doubt your analysis but I'd sure like to know how you deduced
that you need a 16" impeller and 5 hp motor. How does rpm of the motor
affect impeller diameter?

Do you have shutoff valves or gates to each of the tools or are all of
them being sucked at the same time?

BTW, I can't cite the magazine but I have seem how-to articles on dust
collection systems that might help....

Good luck!


"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]>...
> Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
> different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
> in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
> blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
> complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
> someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
> advance.

That sounds like really neat stuff to reduce the problems of leaky
standard sheet metal.

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:18:41 GMT, Jim Behning
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:42:15 GMT, Jim Behning
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>... snip
>>>>>
>>>>> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>>>>>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
>>>>>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>>>>>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>>>>>spiral pipe.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
>>>>used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
>>>>the flow I would expect.
>>>
>>> This is true with plastic flex pipe. The metal spiral pipe I'm talking
>>>about is smooth on the inside. Like:
>>><http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PSI&Product_Code=N-BC05%2F5&Category_Code=ALL5>
>>>This type of ductwork has very low static pressure loss.
>>>
>>>
>>> The kind I bought is lined with goretex on the inside.
>>>
>... snip
>
>>I am striking that old collection system I was talking about this
>>week. I shall inspect the inside of the metal spiral ductwork. I still
>>suspect it is not as smoothand leakproof as pvc.
>>
>>Duct mastic is a whole lot less expensive then caulk and installs much
>>faster. Just brush it on.
>>
>>Now you have me curious. What duct has a gore lining and do you have a
>>link?
>
> I don't have a link, I bought mine locally (in Tucson) from a
>manufacturer who actually makes the stuff. FWIW:
>
>Metal Manufacturing Company
>4795 South Julian Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85714
>(520) 748-1117
>
> I also got my elbows and y's from them as well.
>
> The lining is a blueish tint and seems reasonably smooth as well as
>serving as a seal for the seams.
>

"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > I can't argue with your figures, but you might be over analyzing this.
> > If you have a blast gate at each tool, any normal DC will pobably do
> > the job. Although I sometimes wish I had a bigger unit, the 1 HP Penn
> > State model that I have does a very good job through 4" PVC from 5
> > different machines throughout my basement. Don't forget the ground with
> > PVC.
> >
>
> What are alternativest to PVC? furnace pipe? I can't seem to find any 4"

Can't see any reason why furnace pipe, 4" or 5" wouldn't work, as long
as it doesn't leak.
You may be in the wrong department looking for the PVC. Your cheapest
type will be DRAIN pipe, not supply water pipe, it's much thinner. I
have seen it at Loews and Home Depot for around $4 per 10' length.

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<1098416169.ElPQrB+IvRXbUpuH7NsP7w@teranews>...
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 02:52:52 -0400, Greg G. wrote:
>
> >Jim Behning said:
> >
> >>Better, faster for duct work. You can do some real covering up of
> >>stuff with the mastic. I just find it easier to work with. Hey if you
> >>want you can come over and help me strike a dust collection system. It
> >>can't be but 15 miles from your house. Nothing more fun that years of
> >>dust accumulated on the top of duct work. Or taking down 6 foot long
> >>dust bags which probably had not been cleaned since I left the place
> >>over 6 years ago.
> >
> >I'm familiar with mastic sealant, but the last reference I saw in this
> >thread was M&J's reference to blue lined pipe at some exorbitant
> >price. Maybe I missed a few messages in between... :-\
> >
>
> ??? Exhorbitant price? I never mentioned what I paid for the pipe.
> However, just to set the record straight: 4" was $10.13 per 10 foot
> section, 5" was $9.16 per 10 foot section. 5" was cheaper because I bought
> 10 of them and only two 4" pipes. I thought those were pretty reasonable
> prices.

Where did you buy your pipe? Sounds like a good price to me.
Thanks

mark wrote:
> What are alternativest to PVC? furnace pipe? I can't seem to find any 4"


They sell it at both Home Depot and Lowes in the plumbing department. I've
never been in one that DIDN'T sell it.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[email protected]
http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

mark wrote:
> You know what, you are right. I have two old propane furnaces I was going to
> use for my shop heat, and they require 5" -- I think THAT was the one I
> couldn't find, now that you mention it....so my dust collection needs are
> met. :) I see a lot of catalogs that show the flexible plastic see thru
> stuff hanging on hooks -- I can't imagine that this works very well. Sorry,
> didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back to your regularly scheduled program.


You didn't hijack the thread. It's the nature of these discussions that we go
back and forth.

As a point of possible interest, I just went through a little plumbing project
myself: running tubing from my 1.5 HP dust collector to my table saw, RAS,
jointer, floor sweep, and an auxilary port. I used a combination of 4" PVC and
the free 50' of 4" hose that came with the dust collector (plus a bunch of blast
gates and fittings). I can post a picture of my Rube Goldberg creation in APBW
if anyone's interested. Of course, if I do, you have to promise not to laugh.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[email protected]
http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

> I can't argue with your figures, but you might be over analyzing this.
> If you have a blast gate at each tool, any normal DC will pobably do
> the job. Although I sometimes wish I had a bigger unit, the 1 HP Penn
> State model that I have does a very good job through 4" PVC from 5
> different machines throughout my basement. Don't forget the ground with
> PVC.
>

What are alternativest to PVC? furnace pipe? I can't seem to find any 4"

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Well your right I don't like that answer, but I think you are right.
> Ever had a bad idea you just wouldn't let go of?

It's time to let go, Bill.

The collected experience of an entire industry points you in a different
direction. And you seem to be leaning towards spending more money than you
otherwise would need to, on a non-standard solution, with no guarantee of
success.

I can see that easily in others. And yet it took a bunch of head banging
to get me to stop trying to repair that darned Maytag Neptune washing
machine, over and over again. ;-)

Wanna borrow a hard hat? ;-)

Patriarch

Bill wrote:

> Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
> different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my
> tools in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at
> least 5hp blower to run this setup.

That's a honkin-big dust collector. 3" PVC is not likely to flow enough air
to utilize the full power of anything that size.

> Nope can't find a dang thing. I really
> need a complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I
> know someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks
> in advance.

You could start with one of Clarke Echols welded blower housings
<http://www.cleanshopair.com/BlowerHousingDescription.html> and a Sheldon's
Engineering 14" material handling impeller
<http://www.sheldonsengineering.com/html/BillPUS.html> with a 5 horsepower
Leeson motor <http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/120554.htm>. That
housing is a welded version of the Bill Pentz plywood and sheet-metal
design <http://billpentz.com> and look for "budget blower".

The blower housing is designed to work with a cyclone, but with a couple of
sheets of MDF and some ducting it should be possible to adapt it to serving
in a non-cyclone dust collector. Or you could build one of Bill Pentz'
cyclone designs <http://billpentz.com/>--Clarke's is based on Bill's
design, and it will fit, barely, under a 7 foot ceiling.

If you have 3-phase power you can get a 5 horsepower dust collection blower
from Penn State Industries
<http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DC500MB&Category_Code=DC3600>,
but again it's a 14" impeller.


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Jim Behning wrote:

> I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
> used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
> the flow I would expect. It had 6 or 8 dust bags and made all kinds of
> noise but not enough volume. You get all kinds of leakage from the
> little joints, internal turbulance from the rough texture. I would
> rather see 4 inch pvc than 5 inch spiral metal. I guess I would have
> to do some research to support my position but I know that all the
> duct mastic I added to that spiral system did little to increase the
> flow. Yes the system had blast gates and I cleaned the filter bags.

Bill Pentz discusses this and has numbers for various types of ducting.
Spiral duct is indeed not very good from a flow viewpoint. And smooth
metal duct unless it's very heavy generally won't stand up to a big dust
collector with all the blast-gates closed, so PVC is the obvious choice.

> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
>>>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my
>>>tools in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at
>>>least 5hp blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I
>>>really need a complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent.
>>>Please I know someone has been through this any and all advice is
>>>welcome. Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>
>> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
>>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>>spiral pipe.
>>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Bill wrote:

> Well your right I don't like that answer, but I think you are right. Ever
> had a bad idea you just wouldn't let go of? Yes I have blast gates for
> each tool and have read all of Bill Pentz pages that's why I am where I
> am. How bout this I buy the 14" impeller and make a belt driven pulley to
> increase
> RPM will this make much of a difference or do I really need to take down
> all of that pipe.

Increasing the RPM shouldn't make any difference in flow--once the
impeller's stalled out more RPM doesn't help very much. And even the
material handling impeller will stall out if the flow is restricted enough.

Might not need to take down all the pipe though, plumb it into the big ducts
and then only run a big one where the little one doesn't do the job for
you.

> Thanks
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jim Behning wrote:
>>
>> > I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
>> > used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
>> > the flow I would expect. It had 6 or 8 dust bags and made all kinds of
>> > noise but not enough volume. You get all kinds of leakage from the
>> > little joints, internal turbulance from the rough texture. I would
>> > rather see 4 inch pvc than 5 inch spiral metal. I guess I would have
>> > to do some research to support my position but I know that all the
>> > duct mastic I added to that spiral system did little to increase the
>> > flow. Yes the system had blast gates and I cleaned the filter bags.
>>
>> Bill Pentz discusses this and has numbers for various types of ducting.
>> Spiral duct is indeed not very good from a flow viewpoint. And smooth
>> metal duct unless it's very heavy generally won't stand up to a big dust
>> collector with all the blast-gates closed, so PVC is the obvious choice.
>>
>> > Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
>> >>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the
>> >>>23 different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all
>> >>>my tools in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller
>> >>>and
> at
>> >>>least 5hp blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I
>> >>>really need a complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non
> existent.
>> >>>Please I know someone has been through this any and all advice is
>> >>>welcome. Thanks in advance.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>> >>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the
> dust
>> >>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>> >>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>> >>spiral pipe.
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> --John
>> Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

I am striking that old collection system I was talking about this
week. I shall inspect the inside of the metal spiral ductwork. I still
suspect it is not as smoothand leakproof as pvc.

Duct mastic is a whole lot less expensive then caulk and installs much
faster. Just brush it on.

Now you have me curious. What duct has a gore lining and do you have a
link?

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:42:15 GMT, Jim Behning
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
>>>>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
>>>>in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
>>>>blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
>>>>complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
>>>>someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
>>>>advance.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>>>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
>>>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>>>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>>>spiral pipe.
>>>
>
>>I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
>>used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
>>the flow I would expect.
>
> This is true with plastic flex pipe. The metal spiral pipe I'm talking
>about is smooth on the inside. Like:
><http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PSI&Product_Code=N-BC05%2F5&Category_Code=ALL5>
>This type of ductwork has very low static pressure loss.
>
>
> The kind I bought is lined with goretex on the inside.
>
> The spreadsheet on Bill Penz's website:
><http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm> also supports this.
>Anecdotally, I know that the metal ductwork with my 2 hp Woodtek system
>greatly improved the performance of my system vs. what I had set up
>previously. The key is making sure the system is well sealed with silicone
>seal. As I said, at least with the ductwork I got, there are no leaks due
>to the gore sealing.
>
>
>> It had 6 or 8 dust bags and made all kinds of
>>noise but not enough volume. You get all kinds of leakage from the
>>little joints, internal turbulance from the rough texture. I would
>>rather see 4 inch pvc than 5 inch spiral metal. I guess I would have
>>to do some research to support my position but I know that all the
>>duct mastic I added to that spiral system did little to increase the
>>flow. Yes the system had blast gates and I cleaned the filter bags.
>>

I've found 4" ductwork At Menard's and the Orange BORG.

Bowhunter

Well your right I don't like that answer, but I think you are right. Ever
had a bad idea you just wouldn't let go of? Yes I have blast gates for each
tool and have read all of Bill Pentz pages that's why I am where I am. How
bout this I buy the 14" impeller and make a belt driven pulley to increase
RPM will this make much of a difference or do I really need to take down
all of that pipe. Thanks
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jim Behning wrote:
>
> > I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
> > used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
> > the flow I would expect. It had 6 or 8 dust bags and made all kinds of
> > noise but not enough volume. You get all kinds of leakage from the
> > little joints, internal turbulance from the rough texture. I would
> > rather see 4 inch pvc than 5 inch spiral metal. I guess I would have
> > to do some research to support my position but I know that all the
> > duct mastic I added to that spiral system did little to increase the
> > flow. Yes the system had blast gates and I cleaned the filter bags.
>
> Bill Pentz discusses this and has numbers for various types of ducting.
> Spiral duct is indeed not very good from a flow viewpoint. And smooth
> metal duct unless it's very heavy generally won't stand up to a big dust
> collector with all the blast-gates closed, so PVC is the obvious choice.
>
> > Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
> >>>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my
> >>>tools in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and
at
> >>>least 5hp blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I
> >>>really need a complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non
existent.
> >>>Please I know someone has been through this any and all advice is
> >>>welcome. Thanks in advance.
> >>>
> >>
> >> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
> >>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the
dust
> >>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
> >>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
> >>spiral pipe.
> >>
>
> --
> --John
> Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Jim Behning said:

>That sounds like really neat stuff to reduce the problems of leaky
>standard sheet metal.

Not to butt in here, but is there some reason you don't use HVAC tape
to seal those "leaky standard sheet metal" pipes? Pretty common
product used to, well, seal metal HVAC pipes... ;-)

I use it for just this purpose. An aluminized adhesive tape that
withstands all extremes of heat and cold. I keep several rolls of it
around, as it's useful for all sorts of things. Sits right next to
the duct tape, which curiously enough, is not as useful for ductwork.

FWIW,

Greg G.

Better, faster for duct work. You can do some real covering up of
stuff with the mastic. I just find it easier to work with. Hey if you
want you can come over and help me strike a dust collection system. It
can't be but 15 miles from your house. Nothing more fun that years of
dust accumulated on the top of duct work. Or taking down 6 foot long
dust bags which probably had not been cleaned since I left the place
over 6 years ago.

Greg G. wrote:

>Jim Behning said:
>
>>That sounds like really neat stuff to reduce the problems of leaky
>>standard sheet metal.
>
>Not to butt in here, but is there some reason you don't use HVAC tape
>to seal those "leaky standard sheet metal" pipes? Pretty common
>product used to, well, seal metal HVAC pipes... ;-)
>
>I use it for just this purpose. An aluminized adhesive tape that
>withstands all extremes of heat and cold. I keep several rolls of it
>around, as it's useful for all sorts of things. Sits right next to
>the duct tape, which curiously enough, is not as useful for ductwork.
>
>FWIW,
>
>Greg G.

I believe you lose a lot of velocity with spiral ductwork. The shop I
used to work in had spiral ductwork and that cyclone system never had
the flow I would expect. It had 6 or 8 dust bags and made all kinds of
noise but not enough volume. You get all kinds of leakage from the
little joints, internal turbulance from the rough texture. I would
rather see 4 inch pvc than 5 inch spiral metal. I guess I would have
to do some research to support my position but I know that all the
duct mastic I added to that spiral system did little to increase the
flow. Yes the system had blast gates and I cleaned the filter bags.

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
>>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
>>in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
>>blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
>>complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
>>someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
>>advance.
>>
>
> You're not going to like the answer, but I think you need to consider
>changing the ductwork rather than trying to increase the size of the dust
>collector. When I went through the analysis, 5" duct seemed to be the
>optimum for a home shop -- check with HVAC supply companies for metal
>spiral pipe.
>

Jim Behning said:

>Better, faster for duct work. You can do some real covering up of
>stuff with the mastic. I just find it easier to work with. Hey if you
>want you can come over and help me strike a dust collection system. It
>can't be but 15 miles from your house. Nothing more fun that years of
>dust accumulated on the top of duct work. Or taking down 6 foot long
>dust bags which probably had not been cleaned since I left the place
>over 6 years ago.

I'm familiar with mastic sealant, but the last reference I saw in this
thread was M&J's reference to blue lined pipe at some exorbitant
price. Maybe I missed a few messages in between... :-\

You wouldn't happen to be removing this DC from a place in Austell?
I snagged a bunch of leftover plywood from a cabinet shop there when
they closed up a few years ago. Mostly used for shop jigs and such.

Helping might be an interesting experience - who gets the DC? ;-)
What part of town are you/is this in and when are you removing it?
BYODM? (Bring Your Own Dust Mask) ;-)


Greg G.

I'm a mechanical engineer and being doing alot of calculations on
compressible and noncompressible fluid systems for the last 27 years
and I can tell you that you did not read enough, AND, you are heading
down the wrong path..

Figuring a dust collection system is trial an error if you have not
picked out your blower.

First, you want the stuff moving in those pipe at 4000 feet per
minute. Pick your longest run and hopefully the piece of equipment
that has the most load. Calculate all the pressure drops through the
system, including hoods, entrance losses and losses through the
filters. For larger shop tools, 800 cfm is a good figure to use for
flow rate and 500 cfm for smaller tools. 3" pipe will give you about
16,000 fpm for the 800cfm and 500cfm will yield 5/8ths of that. It
will sound like a jet running.

You better go get some help before you make a real costly mistake.













On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:05:23 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Before I became educated on static pressures, duct size, cfm and the 23
>different stylizes of impellers. I installed 3" pvc ducting to all my tools
>in a 2 car garage. Near as I can tell I need a 16" impeller and at least 5hp
>blower to run this setup. Nope can't find a dang thing. I really need a
>complete blower as my sheet metal skills are non existent. Please I know
>someone has been through this any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in
>advance.
>

> They sell it at both Home Depot and Lowes in the plumbing department.
> I've
> never been in one that DIDN'T sell it.
>

You know what, you are right. I have two old propane furnaces I was going to
use for my shop heat, and they require 5" -- I think THAT was the one I
couldn't find, now that you mention it....so my dust collection needs are
met. :) I see a lot of catalogs that show the flexible plastic see thru
stuff hanging on hooks -- I can't imagine that this works very well. Sorry,
didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back to your regularly scheduled program.