Mistakes or sloppy work

[email protected] wrote:
> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>
> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
> Walmart.

You're only seeing one side of the picture. You're forgetting that
Walmart screws their employees out of benefits.

R

RicodJour wrote:
>
> You're only seeing one side of the picture. You're forgetting that
> Walmart screws their employees out of benefits.
>
> R

I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
employees out of benefits."

RayV wrote:

> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
> employees out of benefits."

It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.
Whether that's screwing them or not is a matter of perspective, I
guess.
I boycott Walmart (for various reasons), but I don't want to get in an
argument about them here... I know there's people here that buy
everything there.

On the benefits issue, which would you prefer, no benefits or poverty
level wages? Wait! Wal-Mart provides both! :-)

On another note, I love waking through stores looking at furniture. It
can be rewarding or condemning. Sometimes I'm checking to see if I can
beat craftsmanship (usually not too hard in discount stores) or whether
I can build better for less. Other times I study their construction
techniques, joinery, finish, etc. Same with catalogues. I think one
of the great rewards with woodworking is that you find, after practice,
you can build the same quality or better (sometimes exponentially
better) than what you can buy and that it came from your own hands. If
there's anything good for America I really think it is the spirit of
woodworking. Wait, I'm getting verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves. .
. . I'll give you a new topic. The Italian Neo Realist Movement in
film was neither Italian nor neo nor particuarly a movement. Discuss!


[email protected] wrote:
> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>
> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
> Walmart.
>
> I got to get out more.
>
> Pete

I never rant but there is always the exception.

I love Walmart when I need to by cheap shit. They have the best. I
think there is a union crowd that hates Walmart and they are aligned
with the same crowd that thinks a minimum wage job should pay enough to
raise a family. Walmart has cheap jobs for unskilled people. Whats so
bad about that. I agree we need a minimum wage but some concept that
says every job should provide full benefits and enough money to live on
is just socialism and we decided not to go that route a few hundered
years ago. Get used to it.


Locutus wrote:
> "bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > RayV wrote:
> >
> >> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
> >> employees out of benefits."
> >
> > It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
> > wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
> > cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.
> > Whether that's screwing them or not is a matter of perspective, I
> > guess.
> > I boycott Walmart (for various reasons), but I don't want to get in an
> > argument about them here... I know there's people here that buy
> > everything there.
> >
>
> No body makes them work there. They are not "screwing" their employees out
> of anything.

That is illegal and wrong and should and was prosecuted. If my company
became so large I assume some asshole managers looking to make a better
bottom line might try crap like that too. I wouldn't stand for it and I
don't hear any Walmart executive standing up for it.

Our great country is great because we have and enforce laws. Take
Pakistan or Malaysia where that crap furniture is being made in a
forced labor factory, under government control and approval, using old
toxic motor oil to stain the furniture and then talk about how Walmart
is complicite by buying from them, and then maybe I'll agree.

Nova wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> > I never rant but there is always the exception.
> >
> > I love Walmart when I need to by cheap shit. They have the best. I
> > think there is a union crowd that hates Walmart and they are aligned
> > with the same crowd that thinks a minimum wage job should pay enough to
> > raise a family. Walmart has cheap jobs for unskilled people. Whats so
> > bad about that. I agree we need a minimum wage but some concept that
> > says every job should provide full benefits and enough money to live on
> > is just socialism and we decided not to go that route a few hundered
> > years ago. Get used to it.
> >
> >
> > Locutus wrote:
>
>
> How about getting used to being forced to work "off the clock"?
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/13/business/main2088901.shtml
>
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]

Locutus wrote:
>
> Again, nobody makes them work there. Nobody "forces" them to work off the
> clock (though I'm sure that is an isolated instance... no company has
> perfect managers)
>
> As Sonoma said, Walmart provides jobs, it's up to the job marketplace to
> determine how well those jobs pay. When the demand goes up for that valuable
> unskilled labor, I am sure we will see a raise in pay.

Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
wage to illegal aliens.

They've also cost a lot of Americans jobs by
encouraging/helping/forcing manufacturers to move overseas.

State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
money.

Sure, nobody forces anyone to work at Walmart, but Walmart is certainly
not a model coorporate citizen. In the end, I'm not sure it's helped
America (other than the Waltons) that Walmart has grown so big.

bf wrote:
>
> Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> wage to illegal aliens.

Have a source for that statement?

>
> They've also cost a lot of Americans jobs by
> encouraging/helping/forcing manufacturers to move overseas.
>
> State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
> those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
> money.

Only uninsured Wal Mart employees get health care from the taxpayers?

RayV wrote:
> bf wrote:
> >
> > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> > wage to illegal aliens.
>
> Have a source for that statement?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/employment.html

Some of Walmart's practices are just plain sketchy. It's not good
business, and it's certainly not what people would consider "the
American Way".

>From one article:
"One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria Gamble
of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at Wal-Mart
as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked her in the
store with her co-employees after the store closed when all employees
were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her experiences at Wal-Mart:

"When I worked at Wal-Mart, we were routinely expected to work at
times when we were not paid. The worst part of this was we were
locked-in to the store at night. Every week, I worked at least one
shift that went from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. or 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. When the
store closed at the end of my shift, the manager or the person closing
the store would lock the exterior doors but the hourly employees like
me would have to remain in the store and restock merchandise and count
out the cash registers, even though we had already clocked off and were
not getting paid. The tasks we had to do after the store closed always
took at least an hour-and-a-half, and often two hours. The doors
weren't unlocked until the work was completed. There were other ways in
which I wasn't paid for time I was working, as well, such as mandatory
attendance at unpaid meetings, and times I had to work through lunch
and breaks."

> > They've also cost a lot of Americans jobs by
> > encouraging/helping/forcing manufacturers to move overseas.
> >
> > State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
> > those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
> > money.
>
> Only uninsured Wal Mart employees get health care from the taxpayers?

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/08/02_walmart.shtml

Walmart keeps pushing everything down. Sounds great, right? What's
not to like about low low prices? It's how they're pushing down and
what gets squeezed out.

I had to laugh at the comments about no one holding a gun to Walmart
employees' heads. Walmart comes in and a bunch of businesses go out.
Due to the economies of scale, which dictates everything that Walmart
does, they don't need as many employees as the other stores would have
required. Those out of work people are now looking for jobs to support
their families and the jobs that are available in the area are Walmart
jobs paying substantially lower wages. Ask yourself the question, what
would you do if you were on one of the lower rungs of the economic
ladder and needed to put food on the table. You'd do about anything -
even work for Walmart.

You're kidding yourself if you think that Walmart's practices only
affect the employees. If you want to contrast their employment
practices with another, similar warehouse store, check out Costco.
Entirely different corporate culture, far better employment practices
and still damn profitable. That's the American way.

R

On Nov 16, 5:36 pm, "Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
> > and still damn profitable. That's the American way.
>
> > R
>
> Since you are not an American, it doesn't surprise me that you don't know
> jack about the American way.

LOL! Good one! I'm always fascinated by assumptions that lead to
wrong conclusions. Which assumption of yours led you astray and why
did you make that assumption in the first place?

> Capitalism is the American way, and Wal-mart is a shining example of that.
> The good part about the American way is that others have the opportunity to
> compete with Wal-Mart, if no one is currently capable of doing that, that
> isn't Wal-mart's fault.

What does competing with Walmart have to do with Walmart hiring illegal
immigrants, locking employees in stores, not paying overtime, sexual
discrimination, etc.? Which of your relatives would you want some of
those things to happen to? Are you saying that those shady practices
are what gives Walmart the edge? Give me an edge and you can go screw
yourself? Is that how you believe capitalism is supposed to work?

BTW, we're not in a capitalist society. Them there are buzz words that
people like to hang on to. Our economy has capitalistic tendencies.
We're actually in a mixed economy where the government regulates a
large portion of it. It is not a free market and it is not a
capitalist economy. Turn of the 20th century America was far closer to
a capitalist economy. That was the era of robber barons, market
manipulation and monopolistic trusts. As, those were the days, eh?

R

On Nov 16, 6:57 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote...
> > RayV wrote:
> >> bf wrote:
>
> >> > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> >> > wage to illegal aliens.
>
> >> Have a source for that statement?
>
> >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/emplo...That's busted once and according to that source most of the "illegal aliens"
> were in the employ of third-party contractors.
>
> So show us the "numerous times".

Okay, but this is the last time I'm doing your homework for you.
http://immigration.about.com/b/a/162521.htm
A dozen subcontractors were implicated, but Walmart was the one made to
pay the bulk of the penalty. Walmart was trying to push the
responsibility down on the subcontractors - it didn't fool the
government.

> > Some of Walmart's practices are just plain sketchy. It's not good
> > business, and it's certainly not what people would consider "the
> > American Way".
>
> >>From one article:
> > "One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria Gamble
> > of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at Wal-Mart
> > as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked her in the
> > store with her co-employees after the store closed when all employees
> > were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her experiences at Wal-Mart:Locking someone in a store would be a violation of Section 135.05 of the
> Laws of New York (unlawful imprisonment), and depending on the class of
> occupancy would probably be a violation of Section 27-371 of the NYC
> Administrative Code as well. Since egress in case of fire was prevented
> that might also elevate the offense to Unlawful Imprisonment in the First
> Degree, which is a Class E felony that could have the manager in the slammer
> for four years.
>
> Personally if my boss locked me in a store with no way out I'd call the cops
> and if I had no way of doing that I'd pull the fire alarm and explain the
> problem to the fire chief after he got through busting the door down.

Before or after beating the crap out of the boss?

R

On Nov 16, 8:43 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 6:57 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> So show us the "numerous times".
>
> > Okay, but this is the last time I'm doing your homework for you.
> >http://immigration.about.com/b/a/162521.htm
> > A dozen subcontractors were implicated, but Walmart was the one made to
> > pay the bulk of the penalty. Walmart was trying to push the
> > responsibility down on the subcontractors - it didn't fool the
> > government.
>
> It's the same bust--you still haven't demonstrated "numerous times". One
> bust is not "numerous times".

>From that link I posted - you may have missed this part: "The
investigation evolved out of two prior immigration operations that
began in 1998 and 2001, respectively. These operations targeted
cleaning contractors that were hiring unauthorized workers from Eastern
Europe.
The follow-up investigation culminated on October 23, 2003, with a
series of immigration enforcement actions at some 60 Wal-Mart stores in
21 states. In these actions, ICE agents arrested approximately 245
illegal aliens employed by cleaning contractors and put these
individuals into deportation proceedings."

It was a sting operation where the feds descended on numerous stores..
There were numerous busts. I also am not sure how much more severe of
a situation it would need to be to satisfy you that it was egregious.
There were a dozen companies and the single largest fine in US history
for hiring illegal immigrants. If it were an isolated incident, and
not a pattern of abuse, there wouldn't have been such a large fine.

I think this is where you move on to say that it was the subcontractors
that hired the illegal immigrants. Then I reply that obviously Walmart
was aware of it, that it was a pattern of abuse that Walmart took
advantage of to line their coffers, and why they ended up paying a fine
almost three times as much as the 12 subcontractors' fines combined.
Then you call my heritage into question, I pop you one, we scuffle for
a while, then get winded pretty quickly being old farts, and we retire
to a local tavern for some libations and to trade war stories. It's a
formula, but it works. ;)

R

On Nov 17, 1:10 am, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 16 Nov 2006 12:52:55 -0800, "bf" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> >wage to illegal aliens.
>
> For which they should be busted because they are breaking the law.
> They are not breaking the law by paying minimum wage to people with no
> skills.
>
> >State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
> >those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
> >money.
>
> That's not their problem. Maybe if these people had an education and
> were more responsible, they'd have better jobs. It's not Walmart's
> fault that people are stupid.

Back up there a moment, Hoss. Walmart foists some of what should be
their costs of doing business onto government programs. So instead of
paying their own way, Walmart is essentially getting subsidized by the
government. Do you feel Walmart needs the help financially? You're
okay with a mega-rich company taking some of your tax money simply
because they want bigger profits?

R

RicodJour wrote:
> RayV wrote:
> > bf wrote:
> > >
> > > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> > > wage to illegal aliens.
> >
> > Have a source for that statement?
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/employment.html
>
>From your link:
" Though most of the illegal workers were employed by third-party
contractors"

Hardly backs up the statement that Wal Mart has been busted.

On Nov 17, 8:21 am, "RayV" <[email protected]> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>
> >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/emplo...
>
> >From your link:" Though most of the illegal workers were employed by third-party
> contractors"
>
> Hardly backs up the statement that Wal Mart has been busted.

You seem to have missed a good bit of this thread. Go back and read
the parts you missed. This was already covered.

R

On Nov 17, 9:00 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:20:30 -0800, RicodJour wrote:
>
> > I think this is where you move on to say that it was the subcontractors
> > that hired the illegal immigrants. Then I reply that obviously Walmart
> > was aware of it, that it was a pattern of abuse that Walmart took
> > advantage of to line their coffers, and why they ended up paying a fine
> > almost three times as much as the 12 subcontractors' fines combined.
> > Then you call my heritage into question, I pop you one, we scuffle for
> > a while, then get winded pretty quickly being old farts, and we retire
> > to a local tavern for some libations and to trade war stories. It's a
> > formula, but it works. ;)
>
> Fine, you want to call the results a single government operation that led
> to a single trial against Wal-Mart "numerous busts" you go right ahead.

61 stores were raided. Coincidence or a pattern?

I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. Would you
prefer the sting operation extracted one illegal alien from one store
at a time? That sounds efficient. Maybe the feds are taking a page
from Walmart's book and consolidating to take advantage of the
economies of scale.

R

On Nov 17, 12:15 pm, "Thom" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I find that I am my own worst critic.

I think that is as it should be. I only compare my work to superior
work - work that impresses me. There's enough satisfaction in doing
the work itself that I don't need validation comparing my work to
inferior work. Don't get me wrong - I have no problem bitching about
inferior work and inflated price tags on inferior work.

R

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I never rant but there is always the exception.
>
> I love Walmart when I need to by cheap shit. They have the best. I
> think there is a union crowd that hates Walmart and they are aligned
> with the same crowd that thinks a minimum wage job should pay enough to
> raise a family. Walmart has cheap jobs for unskilled people. Whats so
> bad about that. I agree we need a minimum wage but some concept that
> says every job should provide full benefits and enough money to live on
> is just socialism and we decided not to go that route a few hundered
> years ago. Get used to it.
>
>
> Locutus wrote:
> > "bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > RayV wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
> > >> employees out of benefits."
> > >
> > > It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
> > > wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
> > > cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.
> > > Whether that's screwing them or not is a matter of perspective, I
> > > guess.
> > > I boycott Walmart (for various reasons), but I don't want to get in an
> > > argument about them here... I know there's people here that buy
> > > everything there.
> > >
> >
> > No body makes them work there. They are not "screwing" their employees out
> > of anything.
-rant on-
Cheap jobs for unskilled people is one thing. Abusing them is another.
If they fraternize, the get fired. They now have a demerit system,
where they get demerits if they are more then 10 min late, or, God
forbid, they leave to tend to a sick child. Awhile back they were
offering life insurance to the employees, they (Wal-Mart) even the
premium. Of course, they (Wal Mart) were the beneficiary. What about
the recent lawsuit regarding hours? My wife used to work for the Red
Cross. When Wal Mart made their yearly "donations" it was a pile of
broken crap in truck, then they would state the retail value product as
their donation. Meanwhile, the local hardware store give something
nice. There is just no excuse for that.

They have 1.2 million employees. They have a responsibility, if not to
pay them well, to treat them like human beings. I just know I don't
need to save a buck so badly as to support a place that treats people
badly enough that I wouldn't advise my kids to work there.

.I realize we can find faults with any place, but they are the biggest
and the worst. Anyway the shopping experience sucks, I did go in once.

-rant off-



-Jim

J. Clarke wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > RayV wrote:
> >> bf wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> >> > wage to illegal aliens.
> >>
> >> Have a source for that statement?
> >
> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/employment.html
>
> That's busted once and according to that source most of the "illegal aliens"
> were in the employ of third-party contractors.
>
> So show us the "numerous times".
>
> > Some of Walmart's practices are just plain sketchy. It's not good
> > business, and it's certainly not what people would consider "the
> > American Way".
> >
> >>From one article:
> > "One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria Gamble
> > of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at Wal-Mart
> > as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked her in the
> > store with her co-employees after the store closed when all employees
> > were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her experiences at Wal-Mart:
>
> Locking someone in a store would be a violation of Section 135.05 of the
> Laws of New York (unlawful imprisonment), and depending on the class of
> occupancy would probably be a violation of Section 27-371 of the NYC
> Administrative Code as well. Since egress in case of fire was prevented
> that might also elevate the offense to Unlawful Imprisonment in the First
> Degree, which is a Class E felony that could have the manager in the slammer
> for four years.
>
> Personally if my boss locked me in a store with no way out I'd call the cops
> and if I had no way of doing that I'd pull the fire alarm and explain the
> problem to the fire chief after he got through busting the door down.


Oh yeah, sure you would. Now, put your self in the place of the
"uneducated, unskilled" employee that Walmart preys on. No place else
to work, you're not calling the cops or pulling any fire alarms. It's
best not to try and put your self into the mindset of the people that
Walmart hires.

-Jim

jtpr wrote:
>
>
> Oh yeah, sure you would. Now, put your self in the place of the
> "uneducated, unskilled" employee that Walmart preys on. No place else
> to work, you're not calling the cops or pulling any fire alarms. It's
> best not to try and put your self into the mindset of the people that
> Walmart hires.
>

I used to be one of the uneducated, unskilled and joined the military.
Got out with better skills and some college.
Got a good paying job with no benefits.
Quit that job for one that paid less but had benefits
Got more education
Worked hard
Got more money

Fairly simple to improve your situation, quit whining and do it.

On Nov 17, 1:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:00:29 -0800, RicodJour wrote:
>
> > 61 stores were raided. Coincidence or a pattern?
>
> Single bust, multiple locations.
>
> > I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. Would you
> > prefer the sting operation extracted one illegal alien from one store
> > at a time?
>
> That would be repeated busts.
>
> > That sounds efficient. Maybe the feds are taking a page
> > from Walmart's book and consolidating to take advantage of the economies
> > of scale.

> Yes, they are, hence the single bust that you keep claiming was not a
> single bust.

Bust - Slang.
a. an arrest.
b. a police raid.

Notice that the articles 'an' and 'a' - those are singular in nature.
There were multiple raids, at multiple locations, and multiple people
were arrested.

BF, the poster who used the word numerous, wrote: Walmart has also
been busted numerous times for paying below minimum wage to illegal
aliens."
245 illegal aliens were arrested and deported from those raids - that's
numerous...at least in most people's definitions of the word.
Numerous - adj : amounting to a large indefinite number; "numerous
times"; "the family was numerous"

I'm kind of surprised that you've gotten so hung up on a word. I would
think that you would have more to offer than simply asking for
citations, references and definitions. Information on Walmart's
practices is readily available on the net if you care to look. Of
course if your mind is already made up, that's unnecessary. Facts
might muddy the waters of your clear thinking.

R

On Nov 17, 8:01 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart driving businesses out of the
> "cheap crap"market.

I don't either. Read the book "The Tipping Point" by Gladstone if you
haven't already. One of his points is that it's not a race to the
bottom.

R

B A R R Y wrote:
> On 18 Nov 2006 06:05:16 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 17, 8:01 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart driving businesses out of the
> >> "cheap crap"market.
> >
> >I don't either. Read the book "The Tipping Point" by Gladstone if you
> >haven't already. One of his points is that it's not a race to the
> >bottom.
>
> Thanks!
>
> I'm going to look up that book. I totally agree that big-box stores
> are quite easy to compete against if you aren't competing on price
> alone, and have many friends who have been very successful in doing
> so.

I definitely recommend Gladstone's book...unfortunately that was not
the book that had the information I was referring to. The book I
should have referenced is, "The World Is Flat", by Thomas Friedman.
http://www.amazon.com/World-Flat-Updated-Expanded-Twenty-first/dp/0374292795/sr=8-1/qid=1163887724/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-6499016-3745560?ie=UTF8&s=books

Gladstone's book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point_(book)

R

B A R R Y wrote:
[snip]
>
> I already have Gladstone's book on reserve at my library. Now, I'll
> log on and request Friedman's.
G>

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I can't help myself now
that Thomas Friedman's name came up.

I'll put it in a simple way: Friedman is a jerk. No clue what he's
talking about most of the time. The deity whom D.C. bows down to on
trade, could be so uninformed he would call the Central American Free
Trade Agreement the "Carribbean" Free Trade Agreement. Friedman didn't
even bother to consider the widespread concerns about the pact's lack
of labor, human rights, environmental provisions. He has admitted to
offering his opinion on CAFTA without having read it.
Just another attention whore who's in it for the money.

I, of course, didn't mean this rant in a bad way.

<G>

Robatoy wrote:
> B A R R Y wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > I already have Gladstone's book on reserve at my library. Now, I'll
> > log on and request Friedman's.
> G>
>
> I was going to stay out of this thread, but I can't help myself now
> that Thomas Friedman's name came up.
>
> I'll put it in a simple way: Friedman is a jerk. No clue what he's
> talking about most of the time. The deity whom D.C. bows down to on
> trade, could be so uninformed he would call the Central American Free
> Trade Agreement the "Carribbean" Free Trade Agreement. Friedman didn't
> even bother to consider the widespread concerns about the pact's lack
> of labor, human rights, environmental provisions. He has admitted to
> offering his opinion on CAFTA without having read it.
> Just another attention whore who's in it for the money.
>
> I, of course, didn't mean this rant in a bad way.
>
> <G>

Friedman's work is often criticized for not being scientific enough,
that he totally ignores certain aspects and consequences, that he gets
details wrong. My response? Yep. So what? I don't let popular
criticism or adulation decide what I read for my information. I don't
take any one source of information as infallible - in anything. Both
sides have valid views in regards to Friedman's work.

Usenet often has a similar dichotomy with concepts - someone will
broach a concept and immediately someone will jump on with,
"References?!", as if without written backup a person's opinion or
viewpoint is invalid.

I am often more interested in ideas and concepts than the details, and
so it is with Friedman's book. There's little room for argument that
the internet and global outsourcing is accelerating the pace of
modernization in certain areas, and Friedman's book certainly had some
interesting views on the topic that were new to me. Even though I
disagreed with certain things he wrote, I didn't close my mind to the
rest of his writing. There's no point in reading if you either have to
entirely agree or entirely disagree with the writer for you to feel the
writer has validity.

BTW, your comments about Freidman seem centered on CAFTA. Did you read
The World Is Flat? If so, what did you think of his non-CAFTA
writings?

R

On Nov 18, 10:46 pm, "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipped a solid post for brevity]

> There's no point in reading if you either have to
> entirely agree or entirely disagree with the writer for you to feel the
> writer has validity.

You are absolutely right on the money there. However, if, after many
exposures to Friedman's drivel in the NYT, it has become evident to me
that this guy has an agenda which is completely out-of-synch with mine.
I can't comment on any of his books, it is highly unlikely that I will
ever read anything else by Friedman, he's made his impression on me
already. He is as repulsive to me as Anne Coulter. My comment was about
Friedman, he continues to foment hatred along ethnic lines especially
in the Middle East. He is a phoney liberal who is a deep-down Zionist
skinhead.
>
> BTW, your comments about Freidman seem centered on CAFTA.

The CAFTA thing was what popped into my head at the time I wrote my
post.
I have many more issues with Friedman. Almost all are because he's a
nasty hypocrite. Maybe he's doing a Limbaugh 'shock-jock' thing to get
ratings/sell books...I don't know.

But... this isn't the place for these types of discussions. *G*

r

Robatoy wrote:
>
> The CAFTA thing was what popped into my head at the time I wrote my
> post.
> I have many more issues with Friedman. Almost all are because he's a
> nasty hypocrite. Maybe he's doing a Limbaugh 'shock-jock' thing to get
> ratings/sell books...I don't know.
>
> But... this isn't the place for these types of discussions. *G*

I haven't read any reviews of Friedman's books, nor anything else about
him or by him in the NY Times. The NY Times has its own agenda and
some of what you read in it is certainly run through their filters.

But you're right - no place for typing these discussions. ;)

R

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
>> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
>> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
>> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
>> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
>> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>>
>> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
>> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
>> Walmart.
>
> You're only seeing one side of the picture. You're forgetting that
> Walmart screws their employees out of benefits.
>
> R
>

Screws them out of benefits? Are you saying that Walmart tells their
employees that they are going to receive benefits but don't actually give
them to them?

"bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> RayV wrote:
>
>> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
>> employees out of benefits."
>
> It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
> wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
> cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.
> Whether that's screwing them or not is a matter of perspective, I
> guess.
> I boycott Walmart (for various reasons), but I don't want to get in an
> argument about them here... I know there's people here that buy
> everything there.
>

No body makes them work there. They are not "screwing" their employees out
of anything.

"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:F127h.3403$%U.3029@trndny07...
> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> I never rant but there is always the exception.
>>
>> I love Walmart when I need to by cheap shit. They have the best. I
>> think there is a union crowd that hates Walmart and they are aligned
>> with the same crowd that thinks a minimum wage job should pay enough to
>> raise a family. Walmart has cheap jobs for unskilled people. Whats so
>> bad about that. I agree we need a minimum wage but some concept that
>> says every job should provide full benefits and enough money to live on
>> is just socialism and we decided not to go that route a few hundered
>> years ago. Get used to it.
>>
>>
>> Locutus wrote:
>
>
> How about getting used to being forced to work "off the clock"?
>

Again, nobody makes them work there. Nobody "forces" them to work off the
clock (though I'm sure that is an isolated instance... no company has
perfect managers)

As Sonoma said, Walmart provides jobs, it's up to the job marketplace to
determine how well those jobs pay. When the demand goes up for that valuable
unskilled labor, I am sure we will see a raise in pay.

"Lee K" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> RayV wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
>>>> employees out of benefits."
>>>
>>> It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
>>> wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
>>> cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.
>>
>> If the worker pays for it out of pocket then it's not "benefits".
>>
>
> Sure they are. If you get employee health insurance at work for, say $50
> a month, yet the insurance company is charging the employer $300 a month
> for it, what do you call the $250 picked up by the company?

Or even if the company is only paying $50 and the employee is paying $250,
it's still a benefit. Heck, the employer could not pay anything and it could
still be a benefit if the employer size allows the employees to get
discounted rates.

"RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> bf wrote:
>>
>> Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
>> wage to illegal aliens.
>
> Have a source for that statement?
>
>>
>> They've also cost a lot of Americans jobs by
>> encouraging/helping/forcing manufacturers to move overseas.
>>
>> State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
>> those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
>> money.
>
> Only uninsured Wal Mart employees get health care from the taxpayers?
>

Of course, Walmart is the only company that doesn't offer full medical
benefits... besides my company... :(

"bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Locutus wrote:
>>
>> Again, nobody makes them work there. Nobody "forces" them to work off the
>> clock (though I'm sure that is an isolated instance... no company has
>> perfect managers)
>>
>> As Sonoma said, Walmart provides jobs, it's up to the job marketplace to
>> determine how well those jobs pay. When the demand goes up for that
>> valuable
>> unskilled labor, I am sure we will see a raise in pay.
>
> Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
> wage to illegal aliens.
>

Source?

> They've also cost a lot of Americans jobs by
> encouraging/helping/forcing manufacturers to move overseas.
>

Those jobs are replaced by other, higher paying jobs. Such as transport,
importation, sales, and distribution. Also, the products are cheaper,
allowing your US dollar to buy more than it otherwise could.

> State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
> those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
> money.
>

So are you suggesting that companies be required to provide full medical
benefits for all employees? Or just Walmart?

Because that certainly would cost us anything would it? $5 roll of toilet
paper anyone?

> Sure, nobody forces anyone to work at Walmart, but Walmart is certainly
> not a model coorporate citizen. In the end, I'm not sure it's helped
> America (other than the Waltons) that Walmart has grown so big.
>

This is America, that Wal-Mart may only be helping the Waltons is not a bad
thing. (not that it is true).

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> and still damn profitable. That's the American way.
>
> R
>

Since you are not an American, it doesn't surprise me that you don't know
jack about the American way.

Capitalism is the American way, and Wal-mart is a shining example of that.
The good part about the American way is that others have the opportunity to
compete with Wal-Mart, if no one is currently capable of doing that, that
isn't Wal-mart's fault.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Those jobs are replaced by other, higher paying jobs. Such as transport,
>> importation, sales, and distribution. Also, the products are cheaper,
>> allowing your US dollar to buy more than it otherwise could.
>
> Considering the amount of jobs that are being contracted at cheaper rates
> overseas, it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking
> about.
>

Amazing that more people are employeed now than ever before, since you think
there are now fewer jobs to be had.

I didn't say there were not jobs being contracted out overseas, what I said
is that contracting work out overseas creates jobs here. How? The product
price becomes lower, more units can be sold, more people are need to sell
those units, transport those units, distribute those units and import those
units. Because of lower production costs, many products are a reality that
would have never seen the market if they had to be made here, as the
production costs wouldn't support the price point of the product.

I own and operate company that has many of it's products made overseas. And
you think I don't have any idea what I am talking about? What do you do for
a living?

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You're working in the wrong area. They all do here. I once worked in a
> place
> where I was the Boss's one employee. Paid full benefits.
>

They all do there? Not likely. Your personal example doesn't necessarily
reflect upon every employer.

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> What does competing with Walmart have to do with Walmart hiring illegal
> immigrants, locking employees in stores, not paying overtime, sexual
> discrimination, etc.? Which of your relatives would you want some of
> those things to happen to? Are you saying that those shady practices
> are what gives Walmart the edge? Give me an edge and you can go screw
> yourself? Is that how you believe capitalism is supposed to work?
>

Where did I ever say that kind of behavior is OK? I never defended those
practices, those practices are illegal, and if they are legitimately
happening, then they should be prosecuted for it.

This conversation started out by people saying that Wal-mart is "screwing"
their employees with no benefits and low wage. This is what I have a problem
with.

> BTW, we're not in a capitalist society. Them there are buzz words that
> people like to hang on to. Our economy has capitalistic tendencies.
> We're actually in a mixed economy where the government regulates a
> large portion of it. It is not a free market and it is not a
> capitalist economy. Turn of the 20th century America was far closer to
> a capitalist economy. That was the era of robber barons, market
> manipulation and monopolistic trusts. As, those were the days, eh?
>
> R
>

Semantics.

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Nov 16, 8:43 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On Nov 16, 6:57 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> So show us the "numerous times".
>>
>> > Okay, but this is the last time I'm doing your homework for you.
>> >http://immigration.about.com/b/a/162521.htm
>> > A dozen subcontractors were implicated, but Walmart was the one made to
>> > pay the bulk of the penalty. Walmart was trying to push the
>> > responsibility down on the subcontractors - it didn't fool the
>> > government.
>>
>> It's the same bust--you still haven't demonstrated "numerous times". One
>> bust is not "numerous times".
>
>>From that link I posted - you may have missed this part: "The
> investigation evolved out of two prior immigration operations that
> began in 1998 and 2001, respectively. These operations targeted
> cleaning contractors that were hiring unauthorized workers from Eastern
> Europe.
> The follow-up investigation culminated on October 23, 2003, with a
> series of immigration enforcement actions at some 60 Wal-Mart stores in
> 21 states. In these actions, ICE agents arrested approximately 245
> illegal aliens employed by cleaning contractors and put these
> individuals into deportation proceedings."
>
> It was a sting operation where the feds descended on numerous stores..
> There were numerous busts. I also am not sure how much more severe of
> a situation it would need to be to satisfy you that it was egregious.
> There were a dozen companies and the single largest fine in US history
> for hiring illegal immigrants. If it were an isolated incident, and
> not a pattern of abuse, there wouldn't have been such a large fine.
>
> I think this is where you move on to say that it was the subcontractors
> that hired the illegal immigrants.

I have a cleaning company that cleans my business. I have no idea if they
are illegal or not.

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm kind of surprised that you've gotten so hung up on a word. I would
> think that you would have more to offer than simply asking for
> citations, references and definitions. Information on Walmart's
> practices is readily available on the net if you care to look. Of
> course if your mind is already made up, that's unnecessary. Facts
> might muddy the waters of your clear thinking.
>
> R
>

The facts are certainly not doing a whole lot for your spin. ;)

Cite one case where Wal-mart had illegals on their payroll.

Here's at least one on-topic response to your observation:

The Wal-Mart where I shop has a small collection of furniture, usually low
cost and assemble-it-yourself type. Most of it is adequate quality but as
you found out, there are exceptions. I bought a good quality hi-fi shelf
unit for $79, whereas the identical unit was selling at Best Buy for $250.

Regards,
Key Bored

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>
> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
> Walmart.
>
> I got to get out more.
>
> Pete
>

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 05:32:16 -0500, Joe Bemier
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:09:21 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
>>around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
>>unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
>>(read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
>>and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
>>makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>>
>>Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
>>up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
>>Walmart.
>>
>>I got to get out more.
>>
>>Pete
>I feel that's a poor way of looking at things, Pete. Go out and find
>the worst presentation of things so you can feel better about your own
>shortcomings? I'd hate to think what will happen if you are exposed to
>a prison.

I have to laugh. This thread has taken on a whole new dimension. I
was merely making an observation about something I saw at a time when
I was thinking about my own work. Perhaps I should have said 'go
wandering though furniture stores'.

When I can see all the goofs in my work that I don't charge money for
(the work not the goofs) and then see the crap being sold for money, I
begin to rethink how I see my work. This is not an excuse to stagnate
nor feel that my mistakes are OK but a wake up to stop being so hard
on myself. My work will always improve and I try to avoid making the
same mistakes twice, but only when I remember what the original
problem was. I only need to put out good work not perfection.

As for my shortcomings, I have plenty just like you and everone else.
I don't need you or anyone else to point them out to me because that's
my job and I can do that much better than you. And what the hell does
any of this have to do with prison?

These days I rarely go through life thinking I can do things as good
or better as another man's work. This particular chest was an
exception.

Pete

In my line of work, that is the case (and that of Prometheus, who I was
addressing). It is not the low skilled, low pay crap you are talking about.

"Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > You're working in the wrong area. They all do here. I once worked in a
> > place
> > where I was the Boss's one employee. Paid full benefits.
> >
>
> They all do there? Not likely. Your personal example doesn't necessarily
> reflect upon every employer.
>
>

On 18 Nov 2006 06:05:16 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Nov 17, 8:01 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart driving businesses out of the
>> "cheap crap"market.
>
>I don't either. Read the book "The Tipping Point" by Gladstone if you
>haven't already. One of his points is that it's not a race to the
>bottom.

Thanks!

I'm going to look up that book. I totally agree that big-box stores
are quite easy to compete against if you aren't competing on price
alone, and have many friends who have been very successful in doing
so.

"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Even when carpenters look at my work and compliment, I am not
> satisfied because I know where the flaws are - and they are always
> there if perfection is our only standard.

Agree, I think that attitude is the mark of the better carpenter. At times
when I've received compliments on some of the things I've made, I always
known there's some imperfection somewhere and constantly strive not to
repeat that type of imperfection again. If we're not always improving
ourselves, then we're either stagnant or getting worse.

On 18 Nov 2006 14:13:21 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I definitely recommend Gladstone's book...unfortunately that was not
>the book that had the information I was referring to. The book I
>should have referenced is, "The World Is Flat", by Thomas Friedman.
>http://www.amazon.com/World-Flat-Updated-Expanded-Twenty-first/dp/0374292795/sr=8-1/qid=1163887724/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-6499016-3745560?ie=UTF8&s=books
>

Thanks again.

I already have Gladstone's book on reserve at my library. Now, I'll
log on and request Friedman's.

Ain't online card catalogs great? <G>

I find that I am my own worst critic.
I see plenty of stuff and wonder how the he** can they sell that for some
gosh awful price tag. I see that stuff and agree with the wifey ... mine is
much higher quality and I usually just give the stuff away.
I'm in for the hobby not the dollars. The satisfactions are in the completed
process and watching the smile come on a face.
Thom

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:09:21 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
> >around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
> >unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
> >(read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
> >and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
> >makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
> >
> >Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
> >up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
> >Walmart.
> >
> >I got to get out more.
>
> If you want a real ego boost, go to a Pier One store- all the defects
> you've described, with a much higher price tag!

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I never rant but there is always the exception.
>
> I love Walmart when I need to by cheap shit. They have the best. I
> think there is a union crowd that hates Walmart and they are aligned
> with the same crowd that thinks a minimum wage job should pay enough to
> raise a family. Walmart has cheap jobs for unskilled people. Whats so
> bad about that. I agree we need a minimum wage but some concept that
> says every job should provide full benefits and enough money to live on
> is just socialism and we decided not to go that route a few hundered
> years ago. Get used to it.
>
>
> Locutus wrote:


How about getting used to being forced to work "off the clock"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/13/business/main2088901.shtml


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> That is illegal and wrong and should and was prosecuted. If my company
> became so large I assume some asshole managers looking to make a better
> bottom line might try crap like that too. I wouldn't stand for it and I
> don't hear any Walmart executive standing up for it.
>

I think it more than one or two managers:

"Wal-Mart has known for years of a massive companywide problem of fair
labor standards violations but did not take sufficient steps to address
the problem. An internal Wal-Mart audit of one week of time records in
2000 from 25,000 employees had alerted Wal-Mart officials to potential
violations. The audit found 60,767 missed breaks and 15,705 lost meal
times. It also alerted Wal-Mart executives to 1,371 instances of minors
working too late, during school hours, or for too many hours in a day.
[Steven Greenhouse, “Suits Say Wal-Mart Forces Workers to Toil Off the
Clock,” New York Times, A1, 6/25/02]"

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> RayV wrote:
>>
>>> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
>>> employees out of benefits."
>>
>> It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
>> wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
>> cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.
>
> If the worker pays for it out of pocket then it's not "benefits".
>

Sure they are. If you get employee health insurance at work for, say $50 a
month, yet the insurance company is charging the employer $300 a month for
it, what do you call the $250 picked up by the company?

In article <[email protected]>, "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
>> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
>> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
>> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
>> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
>> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>>
>> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
>> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
>> Walmart.
>
>You're only seeing one side of the picture. You're forgetting that
>Walmart screws their employees out of benefits.

And that is related to the quality of the furniture they sell exactly how...?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart driving businesses out of the
"cheap crap"market.

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 05:27:06 -0600, Prometheus
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >If you want a real ego boost, go to a Pier One store- all the defects
> >you've described, with a much higher price tag!
>
> Exactly. I have a friend who is a manager for Pier One in Washington
> and she says they're having a heck of a time because most people are
> saying screw it, they can buy the same quality furniture at 1/2 the
> price at Walmart and other discounters, why bother going to Pier One?

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> These days I rarely go through life thinking I can do things as good
> or better as another man's work. This particular chest was an
> exception.

SWMBO used to remind me as we paid for good lumber and fittings that almost
anything I made was going to be better than store-bought. True way back,
and hasn't changed.

OTOH, all the Wally World bashers need to stop and think. Who shops at the
store? Poor people? Aren't we all about helping the poor? Why force them
to shop elsewhere or do without.

You're working in the wrong area. They all do here. I once worked in a place
where I was the Boss's one employee. Paid full benefits.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> And being skilled labor doesn't guarantee health care, either. Most
> job shops with less than fifteen employees (and some larger ones as
> well) don't offer it either.

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>
> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
> Walmart.
>
> I got to get out more.
>
> Pete
>

You are mistaken. Wal-Mart does not sell furniture. You went down their
"Reclaimed for Firewood Isle".

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:10:35 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 16 Nov 2006 12:52:55 -0800, "bf" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
>>wage to illegal aliens.
>
>For which they should be busted because they are breaking the law.
>They are not breaking the law by paying minimum wage to people with no
>skills.

All right guys- I'm no fan of WalMart, but they're *not* paying
minimum wage. Around here, the stockers get something on the order of
$9 an hour. While that's still crappy pay, it's close to double the
minimum wage, and higher than unskilled factory work in the area.

Of course the job sucks- just like any other job that requires nothing
more than a pulse.

>>State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
>>those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
>>money.
>
>That's not their problem. Maybe if these people had an education and
>were more responsible, they'd have better jobs. It's not Walmart's
>fault that people are stupid.

You've got a real point there. I've met dozens of people over the
years who I've seen fired from real jobs because they were not only
unable to do the job, but also unwilling to show up every day and at
least make an attempt to learn. Almost invariably, I end up seeing
those folks later on- stacking boxes at the WalMart when I need to get
something late at night and everything else is closed. Better that
they have that to occupy their time, instead of being out robbing
liquor stores.

And being skilled labor doesn't guarantee health care, either. Most
job shops with less than fifteen employees (and some larger ones as
well) don't offer it either. If the government would stop giving
people free health coverage because they're lazy, we might see the
premiums go down a bit. I have seen, time after time, with no
hyperbole- that the laziest and least useful people (usually the ones
with government sponsored health care) are the first to run to the
doctor for even the most minor of injuries or percieved ailments. The
doctors' billing desks know that they can get cash out of Medicare and
it's analogs, and they charge accordingly- it runs up the cost for
everyone.

Now, that's not to say that everyone that works in a WalMart is an
ignorant and/or useless person- of course some of them are not.
That's true anywhere. What I'm saying is that they are providing a
whole lot of people who cannot or will not do even the most modest
things to better themselves with an income.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:09:21 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>
>
>I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
>around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
>unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
>(read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
>and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
>makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>
>Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
>up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
>Walmart.
>
>I got to get out more.

If you want a real ego boost, go to a Pier One store- all the defects
you've described, with a much higher price tag!

"RayV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
>> those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
>> money.
>
> Only uninsured Wal Mart employees get health care from the taxpayers?
>

Wal*Mart bashers seem to think so.

"Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a cleaning company that cleans my business. I have no idea if they
> are illegal or not.
>

Taking bets?

Like everything else, it seems the person with the deepest pockets is held
responsible. Get on in there in the evening and check those green cards, or
someone with a grudge will.

[email protected] wrote:

>
>
> I was at Walmart the other day getting a tire repaired. As I wandered
> around the store, I came up the 'furniture' aisle and saw an
> unfinished spruce/pine chest. It was crudely made of rough milled
> (read construction wood) and warped 1x4, rough cut ends, badly fitted
> and nailed together with a pallet nail gun. Only 49$. This thing
> makes Ikea knock down furniture look like heirloom craftmanship.
>
> Puts a whole new perspective on things. The next time I beat myself
> up for the flaws I see in my finished stuff I'll go wandering through
> Walmart.
>
> I got to get out more.
>
> Pete

Hopefully the tire repair was done better :)

"Locutus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Those jobs are replaced by other, higher paying jobs. Such as transport,
> importation, sales, and distribution. Also, the products are cheaper,
> allowing your US dollar to buy more than it otherwise could.

Considering the amount of jobs that are being contracted at cheaper rates
overseas, it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking
about.

"bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> RayV wrote:
>
>> I'm no fan of Wal Mart but would like to know how "Walmart screws their
>> employees out of benefits."
>
> It's my understanding that the benefits are so expensive that the low
> wage workers can't afford them (only management can).. So the
> cashier/stockers can't afford benefits.

If the worker pays for it out of pocket then it's not "benefits".

> Whether that's screwing them or not is a matter of perspective, I
> guess.
> I boycott Walmart (for various reasons), but I don't want to get in an
> argument about them here... I know there's people here that buy
> everything there.
>

"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:F127h.3403$%U.3029@trndny07...
> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> I never rant but there is always the exception.
>>
>> I love Walmart when I need to by cheap shit. They have the best. I
>> think there is a union crowd that hates Walmart and they are aligned
>> with the same crowd that thinks a minimum wage job should pay enough to
>> raise a family. Walmart has cheap jobs for unskilled people. Whats so
>> bad about that. I agree we need a minimum wage but some concept that
>> says every job should provide full benefits and enough money to live on
>> is just socialism and we decided not to go that route a few hundered
>> years ago. Get used to it.
>>
>>
>> Locutus wrote:
>
>
> How about getting used to being forced to work "off the clock"?
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/13/business/main2088901.shtml


How about _not_ "getting used to it", filing a lawsut, and collecting
damages? Because that's what that story is reporting.

That has nothing to do with benefits or wage levels.

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> RayV wrote:
>> bf wrote:
>> >
>> > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
>> > wage to illegal aliens.
>>
>> Have a source for that statement?
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/employment.html

That's busted once and according to that source most of the "illegal aliens"
were in the employ of third-party contractors.

So show us the "numerous times".

> Some of Walmart's practices are just plain sketchy. It's not good
> business, and it's certainly not what people would consider "the
> American Way".
>
>>From one article:
> "One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria Gamble
> of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at Wal-Mart
> as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked her in the
> store with her co-employees after the store closed when all employees
> were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her experiences at Wal-Mart:

Locking someone in a store would be a violation of Section 135.05 of the
Laws of New York (unlawful imprisonment), and depending on the class of
occupancy would probably be a violation of Section 27-371 of the NYC
Administrative Code as well. Since egress in case of fire was prevented
that might also elevate the offense to Unlawful Imprisonment in the First
Degree, which is a Class E felony that could have the manager in the slammer
for four years.

Personally if my boss locked me in a store with no way out I'd call the cops
and if I had no way of doing that I'd pull the fire alarm and explain the
problem to the fire chief after he got through busting the door down.

> "When I worked at Wal-Mart, we were routinely expected to work at
> times when we were not paid. The worst part of this was we were
> locked-in to the store at night. Every week, I worked at least one
> shift that went from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. or 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. When the
> store closed at the end of my shift, the manager or the person closing
> the store would lock the exterior doors but the hourly employees like
> me would have to remain in the store and restock merchandise and count
> out the cash registers, even though we had already clocked off and were
> not getting paid. The tasks we had to do after the store closed always
> took at least an hour-and-a-half, and often two hours. The doors
> weren't unlocked until the work was completed. There were other ways in
> which I wasn't paid for time I was working, as well, such as mandatory
> attendance at unpaid meetings, and times I had to work through lunch
> and breaks."

>
>> > They've also cost a lot of Americans jobs by
>> > encouraging/helping/forcing manufacturers to move overseas.
>> >
>> > State Governments have to pay a lot of money in health care benefits to
>> > those walmart workers that don't have insurance.. that's your and my
>> > money.
>>
>> Only uninsured Wal Mart employees get health care from the taxpayers?
>
> http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/08/02_walmart.shtml
>
> Walmart keeps pushing everything down. Sounds great, right? What's
> not to like about low low prices? It's how they're pushing down and
> what gets squeezed out.
>
> I had to laugh at the comments about no one holding a gun to Walmart
> employees' heads. Walmart comes in and a bunch of businesses go out.
> Due to the economies of scale, which dictates everything that Walmart
> does, they don't need as many employees as the other stores would have
> required. Those out of work people are now looking for jobs to support
> their families and the jobs that are available in the area are Walmart
> jobs paying substantially lower wages. Ask yourself the question, what
> would you do if you were on one of the lower rungs of the economic
> ladder and needed to put food on the table. You'd do about anything -
> even work for Walmart.
>
> You're kidding yourself if you think that Walmart's practices only
> affect the employees. If you want to contrast their employment
> practices with another, similar warehouse store, check out Costco.
> Entirely different corporate culture, far better employment practices
> and still damn profitable. That's the American way.
>
> R
>

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Nov 16, 6:57 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote...
>> > RayV wrote:
>> >> bf wrote:
>>
>> >> > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below minimum
>> >> > wage to illegal aliens.
>>
>> >> Have a source for that statement?
>>
>> >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/emplo...That's
>> >busted once and according to that source most of the "illegal aliens"
>> were in the employ of third-party contractors.
>>
>> So show us the "numerous times".
>
> Okay, but this is the last time I'm doing your homework for you.
> http://immigration.about.com/b/a/162521.htm
> A dozen subcontractors were implicated, but Walmart was the one made to
> pay the bulk of the penalty. Walmart was trying to push the
> responsibility down on the subcontractors - it didn't fool the
> government.

It's the same bust--you still haven't demonstrated "numerous times". One
bust is not "numerous times".

>> > Some of Walmart's practices are just plain sketchy. It's not good
>> > business, and it's certainly not what people would consider "the
>> > American Way".
>>
>> >>From one article:
>> > "One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria Gamble
>> > of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at Wal-Mart
>> > as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked her in the
>> > store with her co-employees after the store closed when all employees
>> > were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her experiences at
>> > Wal-Mart:Locking someone in a store would be a violation of Section
>> > 135.05 of the
>> Laws of New York (unlawful imprisonment), and depending on the class of
>> occupancy would probably be a violation of Section 27-371 of the NYC
>> Administrative Code as well. Since egress in case of fire was prevented
>> that might also elevate the offense to Unlawful Imprisonment in the First
>> Degree, which is a Class E felony that could have the manager in the
>> slammer
>> for four years.
>>
>> Personally if my boss locked me in a store with no way out I'd call the
>> cops
>> and if I had no way of doing that I'd pull the fire alarm and explain the
>> problem to the fire chief after he got through busting the door down.
>
> Before or after beating the crap out of the boss?

Wouldn't lay a hand on the boss, that would be assault. Besides, I'm
getting too old for that shit.

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:20:30 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

> On Nov 16, 8:43 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On Nov 16, 6:57 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> So show us the "numerous times".
>>
>> > Okay, but this is the last time I'm doing your homework for you.
>> >http://immigration.about.com/b/a/162521.htm
>> > A dozen subcontractors were implicated, but Walmart was the one made to
>> > pay the bulk of the penalty. Walmart was trying to push the
>> > responsibility down on the subcontractors - it didn't fool the
>> > government.
>>
>> It's the same bust--you still haven't demonstrated "numerous times". One
>> bust is not "numerous times".
>
>>From that link I posted - you may have missed this part: "The
> investigation evolved out of two prior immigration operations that
> began in 1998 and 2001, respectively. These operations targeted
> cleaning contractors that were hiring unauthorized workers from Eastern
> Europe.
> The follow-up investigation culminated on October 23, 2003, with a
> series of immigration enforcement actions at some 60 Wal-Mart stores in
> 21 states. In these actions, ICE agents arrested approximately 245
> illegal aliens employed by cleaning contractors and put these
> individuals into deportation proceedings."
>
> It was a sting operation where the feds descended on numerous stores..
> There were numerous busts. I also am not sure how much more severe of
> a situation it would need to be to satisfy you that it was egregious.
> There were a dozen companies and the single largest fine in US history
> for hiring illegal immigrants. If it were an isolated incident, and
> not a pattern of abuse, there wouldn't have been such a large fine.
>
> I think this is where you move on to say that it was the subcontractors
> that hired the illegal immigrants. Then I reply that obviously Walmart
> was aware of it, that it was a pattern of abuse that Walmart took
> advantage of to line their coffers, and why they ended up paying a fine
> almost three times as much as the 12 subcontractors' fines combined.
> Then you call my heritage into question, I pop you one, we scuffle for
> a while, then get winded pretty quickly being old farts, and we retire
> to a local tavern for some libations and to trade war stories. It's a
> formula, but it works. ;)

Fine, you want to call the results a single government operation that led
to a single trial against Wal-Mart "numerous busts" you go right ahead.




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On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:00:29 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

> On Nov 17, 9:00 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:20:30 -0800, RicodJour wrote:
>>
>> > I think this is where you move on to say that it was the subcontractors
>> > that hired the illegal immigrants. Then I reply that obviously Walmart
>> > was aware of it, that it was a pattern of abuse that Walmart took
>> > advantage of to line their coffers, and why they ended up paying a fine
>> > almost three times as much as the 12 subcontractors' fines combined.
>> > Then you call my heritage into question, I pop you one, we scuffle for
>> > a while, then get winded pretty quickly being old farts, and we retire
>> > to a local tavern for some libations and to trade war stories. It's a
>> > formula, but it works. ;)
>>
>> Fine, you want to call the results a single government operation that led
>> to a single trial against Wal-Mart "numerous busts" you go right ahead.
>
> 61 stores were raided. Coincidence or a pattern?

Single bust, multiple locations.

> I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. Would you
> prefer the sting operation extracted one illegal alien from one store
> at a time?

That would be repeated busts.

> That sounds efficient. Maybe the feds are taking a page
> from Walmart's book and consolidating to take advantage of the economies
> of scale.

Yes, they are, hence the single bust that you keep claiming was not a
single bust.




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On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:59:22 -0800, jtpr wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > RayV wrote:
>> >> bf wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Walmart has also been busted numerous times for paying below
>> >> > minimum wage to illegal aliens.
>> >>
>> >> Have a source for that statement?
>> >
>> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/transform/employment.html
>>
>> That's busted once and according to that source most of the "illegal
>> aliens" were in the employ of third-party contractors.
>>
>> So show us the "numerous times".
>>
>> > Some of Walmart's practices are just plain sketchy. It's not good
>> > business, and it's certainly not what people would consider "the
>> > American Way".
>> >
>> >>From one article:
>> > "One of the class representatives in the New York lawsuit, Maria
>> > Gamble of Suffolk County, New York, claims that while she worked at
>> > Wal-Mart as a customer service manager, Wal-Mart supervisors locked
>> > her in the store with her co-employees after the store closed when
>> > all employees were "off-the-clock." Ms. Gamble described her
>> > experiences at Wal-Mart:
>>
>> Locking someone in a store would be a violation of Section 135.05 of
>> the Laws of New York (unlawful imprisonment), and depending on the
>> class of occupancy would probably be a violation of Section 27-371 of
>> the NYC Administrative Code as well. Since egress in case of fire was
>> prevented that might also elevate the offense to Unlawful Imprisonment
>> in the First Degree, which is a Class E felony that could have the
>> manager in the slammer for four years.
>>
>> Personally if my boss locked me in a store with no way out I'd call the
>> cops and if I had no way of doing that I'd pull the fire alarm and
>> explain the problem to the fire chief after he got through busting the
>> door down.
>
>
> Oh yeah, sure you would.

Yep.

> Now, put your self in the place of the "uneducated, unskilled" employee
> that Walmart preys on. No place else to work, you're not calling the
> cops or pulling any fire alarms. It's best not to try and put your self
> into the mindset of the people that Walmart hires.

If someone is willing to let himself be unlawfully detained he deserves
what happens to him.

I had a car salesman pull something like that on me--locked me in his
office while he went to "try to negotiate a better price". He stained his
pants when he came back and found me sitting in his chair and my buddy Sam
Colt sitting on his desk.

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On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:59:10 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

> On Nov 17, 1:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:00:29 -0800, RicodJour wrote:
>>
>> > 61 stores were raided. Coincidence or a pattern?
>>
>> Single bust, multiple locations.
>>
>> > I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. Would you
>> > prefer the sting operation extracted one illegal alien from one store
>> > at a time?
>>
>> That would be repeated busts.
>>
>> > That sounds efficient. Maybe the feds are taking a page
>> > from Walmart's book and consolidating to take advantage of the economies
>> > of scale.
>
>> Yes, they are, hence the single bust that you keep claiming was not a
>> single bust.
>
> Bust - Slang.
> a. an arrest.
> b. a police raid.
>
> Notice that the articles 'an' and 'a' - those are singular in nature.
> There were multiple raids, at multiple locations, and multiple people
> were arrested.

Notice that you have not stated from what source you took this definition.

> BF, the poster who used the word numerous, wrote: Walmart has also been
> busted numerous times for paying below minimum wage to illegal aliens."
> 245 illegal aliens were arrested and deported from those raids - that's
> numerous...at least in most people's definitions of the word. Numerous -
> adj : amounting to a large indefinite number; "numerous times"; "the
> family was numerous"
>
> I'm kind of surprised that you've gotten so hung up on a word. I would
> think that you would have more to offer than simply asking for
> citations, references and definitions. Information on Walmart's
> practices is readily available on the net if you care to look. Of
> course if your mind is already made up, that's unnecessary. Facts might
> muddy the waters of your clear thinking.

The statement that there were "numerous busts" implies that Wal-Mart was
busted, taken to court, found guilty or innocent as the case may
be, continued the practice, was busted again, continued the practice, was
busted again, etc, numerous times. That is not what happened, what
happened was that they were raided, in many locations, as part of a single
unified police operation that led to a single trial and a single ruling.

It's not a matter of "being hung up on a word", it's a matter of not
letting you get away with a misleading accusation.



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