I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's time
to consider buying some new reference edges.
Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
shocking to me.
So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price) But
are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot for
in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should I
look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>
>
> For straightedges, make your own.
>
> http://www.tdl.com/~swensen/machines/straight_edge/straight_edge.html
Takes me back to my days of working with red lead and persian blue.
I may try it as an experiment some day, ror now I'll be happy with my steel rule.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
OK, not having much difficulty finding reasonably squares. Thanks everyone
for the pointers! Lee Valley has a good collection of them for good prices.
Straight edges aren't leaping out of google the way I was hoping, though.
Any help to offer there?
>Just what kind of precision should I shoot for
> in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should
I
> look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
>
I've got a 6" jointer coming (maybe tomorrow...) so I'd like to get a hold
of a good straight edge for setting it up, but don't want to drop another
$100. I'm thinking 36" would be adequate, ya?
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:93%[email protected]...
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> About the only place I know you can get a decent straight edge on a
saturday
> morning is Grainger. (I think their open saturdays, I tried checking but
the
> web sites down).
Good tip. I'll see if I can find one when their site's back up.
> > I've got a 6" jointer coming (maybe tomorrow...) so I'd like to get a
hold
> > of a good straight edge for setting it up, but don't want to drop
another
> > $100. I'm thinking 36" would be adequate, ya?
>
>
> LMAO.....
>
> You won't get a relyable 36" long straight edge for $100.
Found one for $88 so far...
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Straightedges/Straight_Edges.html
This one I knew about before even asking. And stewmac's not known for their
generous pricing, either. I was actually hoping to do better. SWMBO
understands tools you use on wood. She doesn't understand tools you use on
tools.
> A 24" Starrett is in the neighborhood of $80. The price of a good steel
rule
> is not lineal.
Would 24" be good enough for setting up most shop tools, especially a
jointer with a 46" bed?
And here I always thought it was Prussian Blue :).
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
>
> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > For straightedges, make your own.
> >
> > http://www.tdl.com/~swensen/machines/straight_edge/straight_edge.html
>
>
>
> Takes me back to my days of working with red lead and persian blue.
>
> I may try it as an experiment some day, ror now I'll be happy with my
steel rule.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A.
> Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense.
> (Gaz, r.moto)
>
I'd say for close work, your work should be within .001" or .002"/foot.
For rough work you can do a hell of a lot worse.
Some novel set up tools at the links below:
http://www.patwarner.com/setup_square.html and
http://www.patwarner.com/rat.html
********************************************************
> I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
> around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's time
> to consider buying some new reference edges.
>
> Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
> shocking to me.
>
> So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
> instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
> (http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price) But
> are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot for
> in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should I
> look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
>I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
>around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's time
>to consider buying some new reference edges.
>
>Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
>shocking to me.
>
>So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
>instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
>(http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price) But
>are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot for
>in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should I
>look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
Well, my set of three engineers squares from Harbor Freight are as square as my
Starret combo square can measure.
Dave Hall
I requested and got a Starrett 12" combination square for Christmas in 2002.
It's worth every penny of the cost. Everything about it is superior to
anything I had before. The peace of mind in knowing that it is square and I
don't have to be concerned about it is great. I've made my mind up to get
the 4" double square and be done with it. :-)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
> around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's
time
> to consider buying some new reference edges.
>
> Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
> shocking to me.
>
> So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
> instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
> (http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price) But
> are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot
for
> in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should
I
> look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
>
>
That's great advice!
Dave
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let me make a suggestion to you. As a diemaker I own a lot of squares.
> They are all decent quality (Starrett, B&S, etc) but I have one that
> is dead nuts square (within .0001" over 6") and I don't use it for
> anything except as a reference to check my other squares. It stays in
> my toolbox, when I need to check another one I bring it to my bench and
> check it there. In other words, get one square of the best quality you
> can afford and use it ONLY to maintain the other ones. If you take care
> of it, it will never lie to you. Mark
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have
lying
> > around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's
time
> > to consider buying some new reference edges.
> >
> > Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
> > shocking to me.
> >
> > So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
> > instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
> > (http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price)
But
> > are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot
for
> > in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square
should I
> > look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
> >
> >
>
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:35:49 -0500, <[email protected]> wrote:
>So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things?
Most small engineer's squares are OK.
For a combination square, look for a cast iron head, not a diecast
mazak one. Even if they're both made square initially, the mazak one
will have trouble with warping or wear leading to inaccuracy where the
rule is clamped into the stock.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Unisaw A100 wrote:
> Absolutely right but you can get one that's dead on for the
> cost of a 2' X 4' MDF panel from (insert name of local MDF
> provider here). Look up an old article in Fine Woodworking
> on making a test bar from MDF and drywall screws. If memory
> serves me it was written by 'Chinery Guru John White. It
> involves taking three pieces of MDF and with screws along
> one edge and by checking the one against the next a reliable
> (and adjustable) test bar can be made.
How many screws did they use on the 4' length? I understand the concept and
plan to make a set.
-- Mark
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:35:49 -0500, <[email protected]> scribbled:
>I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
>around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's time
>to consider buying some new reference edges.
>
>Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
>shocking to me.
>
>So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
>instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
>(http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price) But
>are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot for
>in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should I
>look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
For straightedges, make your own.
http://www.tdl.com/~swensen/machines/straight_edge/straight_edge.html
See my post here on how I did it:
http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=v6nu1011u8ftslbb2ist7vli4ncbo8v0bp%404ax.com
Luigi
Note the new email address.
Please adjust your krillfiles (tmAD) accordingly
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > OK, not having much difficulty finding reasonably squares. Thanks
everyone
> for the pointers! Lee Valley has a good collection of them for good
prices.
>
> Straight edges aren't leaping out of google the way I was hoping, though.
> Any help to offer there?
About the only place I know you can get a decent straight edge on a saturday
morning is Grainger. (I think their open saturdays, I tried checking but the
web sites down).
I was looking to replace the square head or buy a new combinati0on square
setup. IIRC Woodworker had the Starrett combination with cast square head
for ~ $70, Grainger had the combination set with a forged head for around
the same price, or less.
>
> I've got a 6" jointer coming (maybe tomorrow...) so I'd like to get a hold
> of a good straight edge for setting it up, but don't want to drop another
> $100. I'm thinking 36" would be adequate, ya?
LMAO.....
You won't get a relyable 36" long straight edge for $100.
A 24" Starrett is in the neighborhood of $80. The price of a good steel rule
is not lineal.
Let me make a suggestion to you. As a diemaker I own a lot of squares.
They are all decent quality (Starrett, B&S, etc) but I have one that
is dead nuts square (within .0001" over 6") and I don't use it for
anything except as a reference to check my other squares. It stays in
my toolbox, when I need to check another one I bring it to my bench and
check it there. In other words, get one square of the best quality you
can afford and use it ONLY to maintain the other ones. If you take care
of it, it will never lie to you. Mark
[email protected] wrote:
> I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
> around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's time
> to consider buying some new reference edges.
>
> Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
> shocking to me.
>
> So where can I get the best bang for the buck for these things? For
> instance, I see Grizzly carries some at a more reasonable price
> (http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=260130&sort=price) But
> are they worthless, or what? Just what kind of precision should I shoot for
> in setting up, say, ts or jointer? How long an edge, large a square should I
> look for? Is my best bet to use a specialty setup tool?
>
>
[email protected]> wrote in message
> I've always set my tools up using whatever rulers and squares I have lying
> around the shop. Well, I caught one of my squares lying to me, so it's
time
> to consider buying some new reference edges.
In accuracy, you mostly get what you pay for ... but how much accuracy do
you need? There are some reasonably priced engineer squares available at
places like WoodCraft that are more than accurate enough for woodworking
tasks and for setting up woodworking blades, bits, etc.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/05/04
Mark
>> You won't get a relyable 36" long straight edge for $100.
Absolutely right but you can get one that's dead on for the
cost of a 2' X 4' MDF panel from (insert name of local MDF
provider here). Look up an old article in Fine Woodworking
on making a test bar from MDF and drywall screws. If memory
serves me it was written by 'Chinery Guru John White. It
involves taking three pieces of MDF and with screws along
one edge and by checking the one against the next a reliable
(and adjustable) test bar can be made.
This just in from a Google search of rec.wood, the Fine
Woodworking article mentioned above is Issue #142,
June 2000.
mslatter wrote:
>This one I knew about before even asking. And stewmac's not known for their
>generous pricing, either. I was actually hoping to do better. SWMBO
>understands tools you use on wood. She doesn't understand tools you use on
>tools.
SWMBO has a point on this one though I say that with some
reservation. You would be smart to hunt up a good combo
square and take the advice above for the straight edge.
>Would 24" be good enough for setting up most shop tools, especially a
>jointer with a 46" bed?
Again, make your own and make it the size you need.
Now, having said all of that, you'll still need a straight
edge for routing/circular saw work but this can also be
built from available sheet stock (MDF) as I would never use
a store bought (Starrett) for this kind of work.
UA100
A draftsman's triangle is more than adequate. Also, a T-square 36"long
in nowhere near $100. Also, a parallel bar for a drafting table is
around $100. Why don't more people use them? maybe because they don't
cost enough. I set my drill press with a 30-60 triangle, my bandsaw
with it also. I use a parallel bar for my jointer and my planer, and a
45 degree triangle for setting my table saw and es[pecially the miter
guage. By the way, a UniFence fence is wonderful for setting up the
planer; it is long, very stable and very straight.
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 13:59:43 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 07 Feb 2004 00:02:28 GMT, [email protected] (David Hall) wrote:
>
>>Well, my set of three engineers squares from Harbor Freight are as square as my
>>Starret combo square can measure.
>
>I'm sure they are. And as rigid squares, they certainly ought to be,
>for they're a lot easier to manufacture with good accuracy.
>
>But try a "low end" combination square and you might as well use a
>carved stick.
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:28:22 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Mark
>>> You won't get a relyable 36" long straight edge for $100.
>
>Absolutely right but you can get one that's dead on for the
>cost of a 2' X 4' MDF panel from (insert name of local MDF
>provider here). Look up an old article in Fine Woodworking
>on making a test bar from MDF and drywall screws. If memory
>serves me it was written by 'Chinery Guru John White. It
>involves taking three pieces of MDF and with screws along
>one edge and by checking the one against the next a reliable
>(and adjustable) test bar can be made.
>
>This just in from a Google search of rec.wood, the Fine
>Woodworking article mentioned above is Issue #142,
>June 2000.
>
>mslatter wrote:
>>This one I knew about before even asking. And stewmac's not known for their
>>generous pricing, either. I was actually hoping to do better. SWMBO
>>understands tools you use on wood. She doesn't understand tools you use on
>>tools.
>
>SWMBO has a point on this one though I say that with some
>reservation. You would be smart to hunt up a good combo
>square and take the advice above for the straight edge.
>
>>Would 24" be good enough for setting up most shop tools, especially a
>>jointer with a 46" bed?
>
>Again, make your own and make it the size you need.
>
>Now, having said all of that, you'll still need a straight
>edge for routing/circular saw work but this can also be
>built from available sheet stock (MDF) as I would never use
>a store bought (Starrett) for this kind of work.
>
>UA100
Keeter-
could you talk about this a bit more? I'm having a hard time picturing
it. are the reference points the screw heads or are the screws being
used to warp the mdf into/out of line so that the opposite edge is
straight?
Bridger
(who can be hopelessly dense at times)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> Well the prices of the Starrett and Pinske edges and squares was kind of
> shocking to me.
Me too. But you *will* have an accurate tool.
After spending about $20 at Harbor Freight and others on imports - I gave up
and bought the Starrett.
Bridger wrote:
>Keeter-
>could you talk about this a bit more? I'm having a hard time picturing
>it. are the reference points the screw heads or are the screws being
>used to warp the mdf into/out of line so that the opposite edge is
>straight?
The MDF is solely there as the carrier (fixture) for holding
the screws. The screws are acting as the contact points for
the straight edge. In other words, you could use just about
anything suitable that would hold a screw because the beauty
of this is, you can re-calibrate it as often as needed.
Let me get the article and see if I can relate what John
White has done without re-writing the entire text.
Here we go. I'll hit on the high spots.
Three pieces of MDF 3/4" X 5" X the length of what you are
wanting to test.
Into one edge of each piece screw in three fine thread
1 3/4" drywall screws, one at each end and one at the center
(center David). I should point out that the spacing needs
to be semi-exact (same) from piece to piece otherwise it
don't want to work right. I should also note that the
spacing of the screws has to be per the surface being
tested, i.e., say your leveling your jointer and the infeed
table is 22" long, the screws need to be 21"ish on center.
Leave the screws with a 1/4" projection. File down the
heads of the screws to remove any burrs.
Mark the MDF pieces:
A - Test Bar (the final product/what you are making here)
B - Calibration Bar
C - Calibration Bar
Place A against B and adjust only the center screw on B
until all six screws touch.
Place A against C and adjust the center screw on C until all
six screws touch.
Place B against C and adjust the center screws of "both"
equally until all six screws touch.
Place B against A and adjust the center screw on A only
until it touches.
Rinse and repeat the earlier steps until all pieces touch at
all six screws on any given combination of parts A, B and C
and no additional fiddling needs to be done.
Myself? I need chalk when something like this is being
es'plained textorally so I'd advise (advice in rec.wood
speak) that you visit the Swenson site and see how he
'splains it with actual straight edges as the principle is
the same.
http://www.tdl.com/~swensen/machines/straight_edge/straight_edge.html
The difference here is with the MDF any hack wooddorker can
have a test bar using snot, a pointy stick, some shards of
glass and dental floss. Things would go way better if the
wreckreite had a Laguna Boutique Band Saw and a whole bunch
of other shiny tools at their disposal (along with some
steel wool and Boeshield to keep the shiny parts shiny).
Your Mileage May Vary.
Oh! Someone had mentioned there only being three points and
trying to level a table where four points would be
desirable? What White does is, raise the tables to where
they clear the cutters (rotate cutters?) and leveling the
table at the throat of the jointer. Then you place the test
bar across the tables with two screws on the infeed table
and one screw on the far end of the outfeed table. Then
using feeler gages (gauges David) measure the amount of rise
or fall in that table. Shim to makes things right and make
final adjustments when done.
UA100
On 07 Feb 2004 00:02:28 GMT, [email protected] (David Hall) wrote:
>
>Well, my set of three engineers squares from Harbor Freight are as square as my
>Starret combo square can measure.
>
>Dave Hall
you got lucky. mine aren't.
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:17:34 -0600, Lawrence A. Ramsey
<[email protected]> wrote:
>A draftsman's triangle is more than adequate.
A small engineer's square will stand up on its edge. A draughtsman's
square won't.
On 07 Feb 2004 00:02:28 GMT, [email protected] (David Hall) wrote:
>Well, my set of three engineers squares from Harbor Freight are as square as my
>Starret combo square can measure.
I'm sure they are. And as rigid squares, they certainly ought to be,
for they're a lot easier to manufacture with good accuracy.
But try a "low end" combination square and you might as well use a
carved stick.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
>>Well, my set of three engineers squares from Harbor Freight are as square as
>my
>>Starret combo square can measure.
>
>I'm sure they are. And as rigid squares, they certainly ought to be,
>for they're a lot easier to manufacture with good accuracy.
>
>But try a "low end" combination square and you might as well use a
>carved stick.
The OP was asking about squares to set up equipment. That is what I use the
engineer squares for.
Dave Hall
On 07 Feb 2004 17:46:35 GMT, [email protected] (David Hall) wrote:
>The OP was asking about squares to set up equipment. That is what I use the
>engineer squares for.
>
>Dave Hall
Why have a bunch of them?
Get one GOOD 12" combo, a 6" combo of the same quality, and a saddle
square, and you're good to go. You can do the whole deal for under
$100 if you shop around.
Barry
>>The OP was asking about squares to set up equipment. That is what I use the
>>engineer squares for.
>>
>>Dave Hall
>
>Why have a bunch of them?
>
>Get one GOOD 12" combo, a 6" combo of the same quality, and a saddle
>square, and you're good to go. You can do the whole deal for under
>$100 if you shop around.
>
>Barry
Set of 3 engineer squares from HF were about $10 and like I say as square as
the starret combo could measure. The Starret was my dad's and handed down (has
all three heads). I also have a Disston wood handled square handed down, a $5
carpenter's square, a $5.99 speed square (I think that is the right term for a
fairly rough cast aluminum dohicky from HD) and a plastic drafting triangle.
Thus I have far more squares than I need and I have about $25 in them (I don't
know what dad spent on the starrets and Disston, but I would bet they were
bought used and cheap knowing him).
Dave Hall
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
>Why have a bunch of them?
>Get one GOOD 12" combo, a 6" combo of the same quality, and a saddle
>square, and you're good to go. You can do the whole deal for under
>$100 if you shop around.
I would consider the above to be the minimum requirement.
Like clamps, you can never have enough combination squares
when marking out a project.
UA100
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:17:34 -0600, Lawrence A. Ramsey
<[email protected]> wrote:
>A draftsman's triangle is more than adequate. Also, a T-square 36"long
>in nowhere near $100. Also, a parallel bar for a drafting table is
>around $100. Why don't more people use them? maybe because they don't
>cost enough.
Or maybe they're a bit unwieldy in the apron? <G>
Drafting triangles do make excellent setup squares, but why go looking
for it when a perfectly adequate tool is already in your pocket?
Any good combination square measures 90 and 45 degrees accurately, is
square to the handle on both sides and ends of the ruler, is very easy
on the eyes with clear markings, measures depth, thickness, and
distance to about 1/128" accuracy, quickly finds centers of boards,
acts as a great marking gauge, and fits in your pocket. All of this
can be done with no extra parts or add-ons, just the blade and handle.
A 6", my favorite size, is about $40 or so, brand new on eBay.
It's the Swiss Army layout tool! <G>
Barry