Doors and Out of Plumb Walls

Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I have installed a few. Pre-hung doors are fairly straightforward. I
> make my own wooden shims from the scrap pile, after seeing what they
> cost. Rough framing is rarely square and plumb. And walls are
> bowed or sunken, a challenge when installing crown molding. I am
> currently fixing a door jamb so the trim can be installed properly.
> Jobs usually take longer than you might think, and when it's my house
> I'll fuss with it until it is right. If a door (or drawer) does not
> open/close sweetly, you'll be reminded every time you use it.
>

I was in a motel one time where the bathroom door shut sweetly. I've
never seen it before, and unfortunately will probably never see it again.
The door simply shut quietly, and with a little reveal all around. It
really didn't need the trim stop piece in the middle, the fit was so
perfect.

We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year old
that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't installed
straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the load.

Puckdropper
--
This signature was typed manually.

Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 08 May 2009 06:55:01 GMT, Puckdropper
> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>
>>We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year old
>>that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't installed
>>straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the load.
>
> It's pretty rare that the hinges would give up in a year.
>
> What's it doing?
> Can you see poor clearances anywhere now?
> Does it seem like one side is dropping?
> Could the door be warping?
>
> Mike O.

The door misses the catch consistently, and has to be lifted via the knob
to engage it.

I just checked with the level. The frame is straight, but installed
skewed. Over 4', the frame is out of plumb by 1/4". (I bet this is
where the problem is.)

The hinges aren't that great either, the top hinge allows quite a bit of
play between the two halves. Lifting the door can align or mis-align the
hinges by 1/32-1/16". Several of the frame-side screws have stripped
out, and a few of them were working their way out. The door-side screws
were all tight, though.

Puckdropper
--
Deep drawer: A shallow drawer with thought provoking words.

Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I've seen the hinge screws come loose on jambs before, especially on
> particle board jambs. Probably stripped when they were manufactured.
> You can try to glue some toothpicks or something in the holes and try
> the screws again. If they still strip you can use some long utility
> screws and go into the trimmer stud. Either method might pull the
> door back toward the hinge side jamb enough to let it latch.
>
> If not, and the clearances on the sides look okay but you see more gap
> at the header on the lock side than the hinge side you can take the
> trim off the hinge side (and maybe the two header pieces) and pry from
> the bottom to lift the hinge side jamb.
> This won't fix the out of plumb situation but it will let you put the
> trim back where it was (except for height) so you don't have to paint
> the walls again.
>
> We had a pretty similar situation on a new house. We had trimmed the
> house and after about 6 months the builder called to tell us that
> there was a door that would no longer latch.
> I went over to fix it. The door was at the head of the stairs and
> sure enough the hinge side had dropped and the door wouldn't latch.
> I got out my levels and the door was still plumb but the header was no
> longer level. I re-set the door and told the builder that I thought
> that the floor was sagging on one side of the stairs. He didn't
> really think so but we got it fixed and all was okay.
> Within the next year we had repaired the same door in three different
> houses all of which were the same plan. On the last two you could see
> the cracks in the sheet rock running from the corner of the opening
> towards the ceiling. He finally believed me but it took him a while.
> After that they extended the stair wall in the basement to pick up one
> more floor truss. We never had to fix another one.
>
> Mike O.
>

Thanks for all the advice Mike. When I get a chance, I'll pull the trim
off the hinge side and get a good idea what's there. Then I'll take your
advice about replacing one screw per hinge with a 3" screw that goes
through a shim.

The catch only misses by a small amount, so as long as the door is stable
moving the catch plate would probably permanently solve the problem.

Puckdropper
--
Running Windows 7 RC. It's better than Vista.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I'm sure you know this, but someone lurking may not.
>
> It's a good idea to replace one hinge screw (casement side) per hinge,
> with a long (3+") screw, that goes all the way through the casement,
> shims, jack stud and king stud. For heavy doors, like thick solid wood
> panel doors, replacing two per hinge can do wonders for keeping
> everything straight and operating properly.
>

That sounds like a good suggestion, -MIKE-. I plan on taking it.

Puckdropper

On Wed, 06 May 2009 16:04:20 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level and
>plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
>never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
>install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the framers
>even used a level?


I have installed a few. Pre-hung doors are fairly straightforward. I
make my own wooden shims from the scrap pile, after seeing what they
cost. Rough framing is rarely square and plumb. And walls are
bowed or sunken, a challenge when installing crown molding. I am
currently fixing a door jamb so the trim can be installed properly.
Jobs usually take longer than you might think, and when it's my house
I'll fuss with it until it is right. If a door (or drawer) does not
open/close sweetly, you'll be reminded every time you use it.

On May 10, 3:30=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> 1D10T wrote:
> > and the ability to move or loosen them easily.
>
I used them to install window jamb extensions to accommodate our 2x6
walls. They pulled the jamb in nice and tight but I also used glue.
Basically they acted as clamps.

RonB

"charlie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
>> look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
>> each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least 1/8
>> inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
>> reverse, up the entire wall.
>>
>> -MIKE-
>
> that's a design feature, not a bug

You must work with software... LOL

John

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> A friend wanted to separate a second story (third, if you count the
> dug-out garage/basement at ground level) master suite into two bedrooms
> (as per the original home plans-- first owner left out the wall to make
> one huge suite). No big deal, I go in and build a simple 14-or-so foot
> stud wall and lift into place.
>
> My helper and I lift the wall up and discover a gap you could fit a 2x4
> in sideways at the top of the wall, where it t-bones the exterior
> load-bearing wall. That's right, the wall is leaning out at the top,
> 3-1/2 inches. You don't even need a 4' level to see something like
> that. I'm wondering how no one caught this.
>
> We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
> look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
> each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least 1/8
> inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
> reverse, up the entire wall.
>

All right - enough of this crap. It's my turn to throw in a horror story.
So - back in '94 our house suffered some snow weight damage while I was out
of town every week, for months at a time. It's a log home and the walls
bowed out by inches - maybe close to 6 inches at the point where the second
floor joists are. No big deal - get the snow load off, call the insurance
company, get a contractor on the job, and in short order it's all supposed
to be fine. Well... the insurance company insisted on who I used for a
contractor - didn't know any better at the time so I let them. They brought
in two local hacks that clearly have never worked on a real project and
produced a professional result in their lives.

As part of the project, we agreed to build an addition off the back of the
house - a two story 13x18 extension that would serve to buttress the back
wall after pulling it back into plumb. (that's a whole 'nother story...).
I brought in an excavator and had him dig a basement hole for the addition.
Had him dig it 4 feet wider on all exposed sides to allow for work room,
drainage tiles, drainage to the tiles, etc. I come home from a trip and
find the contractor had poured the footers and laid up the block. Not a
damned thing straight, plumb, or at a right angle. I called a stop work.
The contractor had the audacity to tell me that there is no way to build a
basement wall perpendicular to an existing wall on a log home because logs
are round. After considering just how stupid this person really was, I
explained to him that the foundation he was working off of was a standard
block wall and those logs on top of it really did not affect his below grade
work. He was lost with that concept and was a slob - the job site was an
absolute disaster. Nailed boards laying all over, debris all over, no
safety fence, kids, etc. Fired him. On the spot. Insurance company tried
to tell me I could not fire him - but I did anyway.

So - they brought in another. He could not figure out how to overcome the
problems created by the first contractor, and decided (I guess...) to simply
continue in the same spirit of crummy workmanship. He built the two story
structure and added to it the slight problem of being out of plumb by two
inches over a 20 foot span. Get this - he was proud of his work!

Fired the ignorant fool.

Finally I told the insurance company to cut me a check and I would contract
out the work myself and GC the project. They came back with a proposal I
finally accepted, which resulted in another crew on the site. One and a
half years later, I finally fired the damned insurance company (Nationwide).
I had been advising them of theft of materials from my job site, double
billings, work either undone or done to less than generally acceptable
standards, and they turned a blind eye. So - I insisted that I would be my
own GC and their GC company was out of here. Submitted new invoices and
estimates for the remaining work and farmed it out to people I could trust.
Documented the shit out of everything. Got the job completed in a matter of
months.

I felt I had been pretty damned diligent - let the insurance company have
their way (for way too long...) and allowed them to provide their "preferred
contractors", advised them of losses they were incurring daily, closed out
the job at a fraction of what the remaining schedule was, only to be...
dropped on my anniversary date.

Oh well...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Kinda sorry I started this thread. Did realize there's some really shitty
> workmanship out there and wondered how any of them keep their license.
> Guess that's why in tough times the ones with the reputation are still
> busy. I seem busier then when things were going nuts. I know I'm in a
> business that is sometimes looked at like lawyers, used car salesman, and
> Politicians. I just do the best I can and at the end ask the customer if

How dare you spell "politician" with a capital "P"!

"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>>
>> "charlie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>> We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
>>>> look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
>>>> each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least
>>>> 1/8
>>>> inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
>>>> reverse, up the entire wall.
>>>>
>>>> -MIKE-
>>>
>>> that's a design feature, not a bug
>>
>> You must work with software... LOL
>>
>> John
>
> Kinda sorry I started this thread. Did realize there's some really shitty
> workmanship out there and wondered how any of them keep their license.
> Guess that's why in tough times the ones with the reputation are still
> busy. I seem busier then when things were going nuts. I know I'm in a
> business that is sometimes looked at like lawyers, used car salesman, and
> Politicians. I just do the best I can and at the end ask the customer if
> their happy and if there's something they're not happy with? I usually get
> a big smile and a NO. Do your homework!!!!!

Reminds me of a situation maybe 10-15 years ago when a bunch of McMansions
were being built where my favorite hunting woods once stood. There was a
real dumb a... I knew of from high school working as a laborer on some of
those houses... spent his youth doing burglaries, and using and selling
drugs. The guy who owned the contracting business wouldn't let the DA do
anything resembling thinking work. This because the DA ruined material and
pretty much everything needed rework. I didn't see the DA around for a few
years and then ran into him in a restaurant. He proceeded to tell me he had
been earning a 6 figure income for the prior two years building western
style homes in Japan! I didn't know how to respond to that information as it
was unfathomable... Probably put a serious hurting on the industry in Japan
too once people started to understand what garbage work the guy really did!
LOL

My problem is I do construction like it's furniture. ;~) I know it, and I
also know it's nuts! LOL The facia and soffits on my house are, after
renovation, perfectly level in all directions and in one plane... come put a
laser level on it and see for yourself! LOL When the day comes that all the
interior renovation work is completed it will be of similar caliber...
assuming I get it all done in the next 20-25 years. ;~)

John

On Sun, 10 May 2009 15:15:02 -0500, "1D10T" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> 1D10T wrote:
>>>>> I never use nails to install/repair a door. Screws for me!
>>>> Just curious. What do you do to the screw heads?
>>>
>>> Probably what you do to the nail heads. It's no more of an issue with
>>> screws than with nails. As with nails, I do try to place them where
>>> they'll be under the stop molding, which also leaves nail heads to be
>>> dealt with.
>>
>> Ever try those trim screws with the little heads?
>> I've used them on other things and they're nice, but easy to pull through.
>
>No I haven't, but with the small heads they're probably as bad as using
>casing or finishing nails. The two reasons I like screws are the head size
>and the ability to move or loosen them easily.

I've used a bunch of trim-head #7 SS square head recess screws for
such things. They do have the (dis)advantages you state; small head
and potential to modify the installation. However, the screw head
isn't small enough disappear. They have their use and beat nails all
to hell, but aren't a panacea. They don't replace the big honkin'
screw through the hinges either. I too had an exterior door (almost)
held on by the brickmold). :-(

On Sat, 09 May 2009 11:52:33 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> The door misses the catch consistently, and has to be lifted via the knob
>> to engage it.
>>
>> I just checked with the level. The frame is straight, but installed
>> skewed. Over 4', the frame is out of plumb by 1/4". (I bet this is
>> where the problem is.)
>>
>> The hinges aren't that great either, the top hinge allows quite a bit of
>> play between the two halves. Lifting the door can align or mis-align the
>> hinges by 1/32-1/16". Several of the frame-side screws have stripped
>> out, and a few of them were working their way out. The door-side screws
>> were all tight, though.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>
>I'm sure you know this, but someone lurking may not.
>
>It's a good idea to replace one hinge screw (casement side) per hinge,
>with a long (3+") screw, that goes all the way through the casement,
>shims, jack stud and king stud. For heavy doors, like thick solid wood
>panel doors, replacing two per hinge can do wonders for keeping
>everything straight and operating properly.

Make sure you put shims behind the casement right where the screws go
before driving those long screws. Most cheap door installations don't
have any shims behind the hinges, so that whole side flexes and if you
put a long screw in you will make things much worse.

DAMHIKT

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

My laptop knows me too well - it just announced "your battery is low!"

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f7cd8af1-fe23-4c17-a630-4ff59caaebfe@r34g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> Yeah. We just built a house and we are in the process of finishing
> it. Our framer actually did an exceptional job of keeping everything
> very straight and plumb.
>
> Except once.
>
> We had one entry closet door that was a little out of plumb on one
> side; and a little out in the opposite direction on the other side.
> And the damned thing was a narrow 20" door. We fought the thing with
> me on the inside of the tiny closet and the wife outside trying to get
> it workable. When I started trimming, I ended up removing it,
> rehanging it and modifying every bit of trim to make it work. Glad I
> didn't have to do that on every door.

You guys ever hear of using a persuader to move the bottom of the wall at
the door openings? Often saves a lot of horsing around... even with rock
hanging and taped it works pretty well. ;~)

John

"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level
> and
> plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
> never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the
> framers
> even used a level?


HA Ha. You should see some of the old buildings i work on. The level wasn't
invented when they went up, and neither was the straight timber. Last year I
was working on a floor wearing hard plastic knee pads and I found if I put
too much weight on my knees I slid down the floor and hit the wall.

Tim W

Keith Nuttle wrote:
> evodawg wrote:
>> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level and
>> plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
>> never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
>> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the framers
>> even used a level?
>
> Fortunately we did were renting but one house we lived in was the worst
> out of square house I ever lived in. The good thing was the lazy cat.
> He would lay on the floor for hours hit the ball up the floor and watch
> it roll back to him. After living in the house for several years we
> moved, to a house that was more square with the world.
>
> The cat was frustrated for months because he would have to get up and
> chase his ball as it would not roll back to him.

10 years ago when we were house hunting I went to a building site to
talk with a builder. It was all framed up. They had used warped, bowed
and/or twisted studs. Sighting down a wall it went in and out like a
snake. I called it to the attention of the builder. He said, "The
sheet rock will pull it all straight". I thought Yeah, right.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

There's always the temptation to let
other people think you're normal.

"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:

>> less than desirable walls and openings. Thank goodness the door openings
>> are bigger than necessary, HUH?
> These openings are 1/2" out from top to bottom. You know what that does to
> the door? Half of it is either to far in on the casing or sticking out
> from
> the casing. Then you have to reset the stop, its a mess.


Yeah, I see that quite often. AAMOF my last 2 prehung door job, presented
the same problem. Remember, the casing moldings are not necessarily there
to "pretty up" the door opening.

> 10 years ago when we were house hunting I went to a building site to
> talk with a builder. It was all framed up. They had used warped, bowed
> and/or twisted studs. Sighting down a wall it went in and out like a
> snake. I called it to the attention of the builder. He said, "The
> sheet rock will pull it all straight". I thought Yeah, right.

It is the the painter's responsibility to make the framing, drywall and
trim look good.

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 1D10T wrote:
>> "Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 06 May 2009 23:55:33 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only
>>>> problem I
>>>> have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all
>>>> this
>>>> shifting?
>>> Nail the jamb near the top and bottom of each jamb side near the
>>> hinges on that side and about the same place on the lock side. Get
>>> the door pretty much set (level and plumb) with your shims. Only the
>>> 4 nails are still holding things close. Tap the jambs in or out,
>>> where you need them, and add nails as you go. Check your clearance
>>> along the way.
>>
>> I never use nails to install/repair a door. Screws for me!
>
> Just curious. What do you do to the screw heads?

Probably what you do to the nail heads. It's no more of an issue with screws
than with nails. As with nails, I do try to place them where they'll be
under the stop molding, which also leaves nail heads to be dealt with.

RE: Subject

By definition a house is little more than a poorly built boat.

Lew

On Fri, 08 May 2009 20:20:17 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Around here, it's very common to see them installed with only the
>pre-attached trim nailed through the drywall and *no* nails or shims
>through the casement. Not kidding.

The exterior doors on the manufactured home I live in were pretty much
installed that way. They had a dozen or so 3" staples through the
brick-mould and that was about it. Getting those doors to function in
anything like a "normal" manner took a bit of doing.

--
Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

I started out with nothing and after years of hard work have finally managed to double it!

Mike Marlow wrote:
> One and a
> half years later, I finally fired the damned insurance company (Nationwide).
<snip>
>
> I felt I had been pretty damned diligent - let the insurance company have
> their way (for way too long...) and allowed them to provide their "preferred
> contractors", advised them of losses they were incurring daily, closed out
> the job at a fraction of what the remaining schedule was, only to be...
> dropped on my anniversary date.
>
> Oh well...

How can that be? Nationwide is "On Your Side"!

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Wed, 06 May 2009 19:44:45 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
wrote:

>These openings are 1/2" out from top to bottom. You know what that does to
>the door? Half of it is either to far in on the casing or sticking out from
>the casing. Then you have to reset the stop, its a mess.


1/2" is pretty bad but there are some things you can try depending on
the size and style of trim. As has been suggested, move the bottom of
the wall if possible. If you can't do that, you can try to spread
the problem around the door on all four corners.
Lets say you're standing outside the door the door is closed and the
top lock side of the door is hanging out 1/2" past the jamb. Push the
top hinge side in 1/8" past the rock and pull the bottom hinge side
toward you past the rock 1/8". With the door closed, now the door
should only be hanging out 1/4" at the top. Now do the opposite to
the lock side jamb. Pull the top 1/8" towards you and push the bottom
of the lock side jamb in 1/8". Now the door should close against the
stop. Although all four corners will be off, no corner will be off
more than 1/8".

Basically that still makes it a pain to trim and if you are using 1x
material it can still be quite difficult. If your jambs are beveled
and the casing does have some relief cut, you should be able to handle
the 1/8" without too much problem. If you are using mitered corners
(with casing that has a detail) you'll have to adjust the angles
since the casing will no longer be laying flat on the wall.

I feel your pain.
Good luck.

Mike O.

On May 7, 2:55=A0am, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mike O. wrote:
> > On Wed, 06 May 2009 19:44:45 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >>These openings are 1/2" out from top to bottom. You know what that does=
to
> >>the door? Half of it is either to far in on the casing or sticking out
> >>from the casing. Then you have to reset the stop, its a mess.
>
> > 1/2" is pretty bad but there are some things you can try depending on
> > the size and style of trim. =A0As has been suggested, move the bottom o=
f
> > the wall =A0if possible. =A0If you can't do that, you can try to spread
> > the problem around the door on all four corners.
> > Lets say you're standing outside the door the door is closed and the
> > top lock side of the door is hanging out 1/2" past the jamb. =A0Push th=
e
> > top hinge side in 1/8" past the rock and pull the bottom hinge side
> > toward you past the rock 1/8". =A0With the door closed, now the door
> > should only be hanging out 1/4" at the top. =A0 Now do the opposite to
> > the lock side jamb. =A0Pull the top 1/8" towards you and push the botto=
m
> > of the lock side jamb in 1/8". =A0 Now the door should close against th=
e
> > stop. =A0Although all four corners will be off, no corner will be off
> > more than 1/8".
>
> > Basically that still makes it a pain to trim and if you are using 1x
> > material it can still be quite difficult. =A0If your jambs are beveled
> > and the casing does have some relief cut, you should be able to handle
> > the 1/8" without too much problem. =A0If you are using mitered corners
> > (with casing that has a detail) =A0you'll have to adjust the angles
> > since the casing will no longer be laying flat on the wall.
>
> > I feel your pain.
> > Good luck.
>
> > Mike O.
>
> Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only proble=
m I
> have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all this
> shifting? On one of them I just divided the difference on the lock side.
> The door at the top is sticking out a bit and in a bit at the bottom. I d=
id
> take the stop off and reposition it. It looks alright, and I doubt anyone
> will notice. I already told the homeowner about the problem and he's awar=
e
> of it and just told me to do the best I can.
>
> Thanks
> --
> "You can lead them to LINUX
> but you can't make them THINK"
> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
> Website Addresshttp://rentmyhusband.biz/

Put the frame up flush with everything, then take the door off and
toss it in the back yard for a few days. Stick some tile under the
correct corners and toss a few cinder blocks on top.

That should warp the door enough that it should look straight in the
frame! :-)

-Nathan

On Wed, 06 May 2009 16:04:20 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level and
>plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
>never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
>install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the framers
>even used a level?

I lived in a house like that for 30 years. The back wall of the
carport was out of plumb 1.5 inches from top to bottom. When I
enclosed the carport, I ripped 2x4's into long shims to have vertical
studs for hanging the finish wall.

There was also some plumbing that repeatedly clogged - the drains had
no slope.

Probably not too bad a job of building from people who were
structurally illiterate - not knowing square, plumb, or level.

John

"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year old
> that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't installed
> straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the load.

Any chance it's caused by wood shrinkage/movement or can you now see some
space between hinge leaves?

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I can honestly say that I have never seen walls that are plumb or door
> openings that are square.

Ahhh, but how many of them are out of plumb/square from the get go and how
many of them have shifted over time from incorrect installation or
shrinkage/wood movement?

Yeah. We just built a house and we are in the process of finishing
it. Our framer actually did an exceptional job of keeping everything
very straight and plumb.

Except once.

We had one entry closet door that was a little out of plumb on one
side; and a little out in the opposite direction on the other side.
And the damned thing was a narrow 20" door. We fought the thing with
me on the inside of the tiny closet and the wife outside trying to get
it workable. When I started trimming, I ended up removing it,
rehanging it and modifying every bit of trim to make it work. Glad I
didn't have to do that on every door.

RonB

John Grossbohlin wrote:

>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:f7cd8af1-fe23-4c17-a630-4ff59caaebfe@r34g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>> Yeah. We just built a house and we are in the process of finishing
>> it. Our framer actually did an exceptional job of keeping everything
>> very straight and plumb.
>>
>> Except once.
>>
>> We had one entry closet door that was a little out of plumb on one
>> side; and a little out in the opposite direction on the other side.
>> And the damned thing was a narrow 20" door. We fought the thing with
>> me on the inside of the tiny closet and the wife outside trying to get
>> it workable. When I started trimming, I ended up removing it,
>> rehanging it and modifying every bit of trim to make it work. Glad I
>> didn't have to do that on every door.
>
> You guys ever hear of using a persuader to move the bottom of the wall at
> the door openings? Often saves a lot of horsing around... even with rock
> hanging and taped it works pretty well. ;~)
>
> John
hmmmm, not with trim and a wood floor already installed and the plate Ramset
in. I swear some Illegal freakin Mexican Framed this house. I'm just glad
they don't want Crown Molding, hahaha
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Leon wrote:

>
> "evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level
>> and
>> plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
>> never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
>> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the
>> framers
>> even used a level?
>
>
> I can honestly say that I have never seen walls that are plumb or door
> openings that are square. I have done the prehung door thing many times
> on
> less than desirable walls and openings. Thank goodness the door openings
> are bigger than necessary, HUH?
These openings are 1/2" out from top to bottom. You know what that does to
the door? Half of it is either to far in on the casing or sticking out from
the casing. Then you have to reset the stop, its a mess.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Mike O. wrote:

> On Wed, 06 May 2009 19:44:45 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>These openings are 1/2" out from top to bottom. You know what that does to
>>the door? Half of it is either to far in on the casing or sticking out
>>from the casing. Then you have to reset the stop, its a mess.
>
>
> 1/2" is pretty bad but there are some things you can try depending on
> the size and style of trim. As has been suggested, move the bottom of
> the wall if possible. If you can't do that, you can try to spread
> the problem around the door on all four corners.
> Lets say you're standing outside the door the door is closed and the
> top lock side of the door is hanging out 1/2" past the jamb. Push the
> top hinge side in 1/8" past the rock and pull the bottom hinge side
> toward you past the rock 1/8". With the door closed, now the door
> should only be hanging out 1/4" at the top. Now do the opposite to
> the lock side jamb. Pull the top 1/8" towards you and push the bottom
> of the lock side jamb in 1/8". Now the door should close against the
> stop. Although all four corners will be off, no corner will be off
> more than 1/8".
>
> Basically that still makes it a pain to trim and if you are using 1x
> material it can still be quite difficult. If your jambs are beveled
> and the casing does have some relief cut, you should be able to handle
> the 1/8" without too much problem. If you are using mitered corners
> (with casing that has a detail) you'll have to adjust the angles
> since the casing will no longer be laying flat on the wall.
>
> I feel your pain.
> Good luck.
>
> Mike O.

Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only problem I
have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all this
shifting? On one of them I just divided the difference on the lock side.
The door at the top is sticking out a bit and in a bit at the bottom. I did
take the stop off and reposition it. It looks alright, and I doubt anyone
will notice. I already told the homeowner about the problem and he's aware
of it and just told me to do the best I can.

Thanks
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

basilisk wrote:

> evodawg wrote:
>
>> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level
>> and plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I
>> have never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
>> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the
>> framers even used a level?
>
>
> If only two things are messed up in a framing job it will be the
> master bedroom ceiling and the front entrance door framing.
>
> basilisk

I can only hope its 2
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

nhurst wrote:

> On May 7, 2:55 am, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Mike O. wrote:
>> > On Wed, 06 May 2009 19:44:45 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>These openings are 1/2" out from top to bottom. You know what that does
>> >>to the door? Half of it is either to far in on the casing or sticking
>> >>out from the casing. Then you have to reset the stop, its a mess.
>>
>> > 1/2" is pretty bad but there are some things you can try depending on
>> > the size and style of trim.  As has been suggested, move the bottom of
>> > the wall  if possible.  If you can't do that, you can try to spread
>> > the problem around the door on all four corners.
>> > Lets say you're standing outside the door the door is closed and the
>> > top lock side of the door is hanging out 1/2" past the jamb.  Push the
>> > top hinge side in 1/8" past the rock and pull the bottom hinge side
>> > toward you past the rock 1/8".  With the door closed, now the door
>> > should only be hanging out 1/4" at the top.   Now do the opposite to
>> > the lock side jamb.  Pull the top 1/8" towards you and push the bottom
>> > of the lock side jamb in 1/8".   Now the door should close against the
>> > stop.  Although all four corners will be off, no corner will be off
>> > more than 1/8".
>>
>> > Basically that still makes it a pain to trim and if you are using 1x
>> > material it can still be quite difficult.  If your jambs are beveled
>> > and the casing does have some relief cut, you should be able to handle
>> > the 1/8" without too much problem.  If you are using mitered corners
>> > (with casing that has a detail)  you'll have to adjust the angles
>> > since the casing will no longer be laying flat on the wall.
>>
>> > I feel your pain.
>> > Good luck.
>>
>> > Mike O.
>>
>> Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only
>> problem I have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're
>> doing all this shifting? On one of them I just divided the difference on
>> the lock side. The door at the top is sticking out a bit and in a bit at
>> the bottom. I did take the stop off and reposition it. It looks alright,
>> and I doubt anyone will notice. I already told the homeowner about the
>> problem and he's aware of it and just told me to do the best I can.
>>
>> Thanks
>> --
>> "You can lead them to LINUX
>> but you can't make them THINK"
>> Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
>> Website Addresshttp://rentmyhusband.biz/
>
> Put the frame up flush with everything, then take the door off and
> toss it in the back yard for a few days. Stick some tile under the
> correct corners and toss a few cinder blocks on top.
>
> That should warp the door enough that it should look straight in the
> frame! :-)
>
> -Nathan

You forgot the part where you spray water all over it everyday until it
forms to the correct specifications.

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

In the past decade, the Nashville area has had a housing boom, probably
rivaled only by Las Vegas. I don't know if it's the fact that Nashville
has become a sanctuary city for illegals and the State turns a blind eye
to their hiring, or the houses are just going up too darn fast and
builders don't care about quality or a combination of those factors, but
I've run across some ridiculous gaffs in half million dollar homes
around here.

A friend wanted to separate a second story (third, if you count the
dug-out garage/basement at ground level) master suite into two bedrooms
(as per the original home plans-- first owner left out the wall to make
one huge suite). No big deal, I go in and build a simple 14-or-so foot
stud wall and lift into place.

My helper and I lift the wall up and discover a gap you could fit a 2x4
in sideways at the top of the wall, where it t-bones the exterior
load-bearing wall. That's right, the wall is leaning out at the top,
3-1/2 inches. You don't even need a 4' level to see something like
that. I'm wondering how no one caught this.

We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least 1/8
inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
reverse, up the entire wall.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In the past decade, the Nashville area has had a housing boom, probably
> rivaled only by Las Vegas. I don't know if it's the fact that Nashville
> has become a sanctuary city for illegals and the State turns a blind eye
> to their hiring, or the houses are just going up too darn fast and
> builders don't care about quality or a combination of those factors, but
> I've run across some ridiculous gaffs in half million dollar homes
> around here.
>
> A friend wanted to separate a second story (third, if you count the
> dug-out garage/basement at ground level) master suite into two bedrooms
> (as per the original home plans-- first owner left out the wall to make
> one huge suite). No big deal, I go in and build a simple 14-or-so foot
> stud wall and lift into place.
>
> My helper and I lift the wall up and discover a gap you could fit a 2x4
> in sideways at the top of the wall, where it t-bones the exterior
> load-bearing wall. That's right, the wall is leaning out at the top,
> 3-1/2 inches. You don't even need a 4' level to see something like
> that. I'm wondering how no one caught this.
>
> We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
> look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
> each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least 1/8
> inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
> reverse, up the entire wall.
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-

that's a design feature, not a bug

charlie wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In the past decade, the Nashville area has had a housing boom, probably
>> rivaled only by Las Vegas. I don't know if it's the fact that Nashville
>> has become a sanctuary city for illegals and the State turns a blind eye
>> to their hiring, or the houses are just going up too darn fast and
>> builders don't care about quality or a combination of those factors, but
>> I've run across some ridiculous gaffs in half million dollar homes
>> around here.
>>
>> A friend wanted to separate a second story (third, if you count the
>> dug-out garage/basement at ground level) master suite into two bedrooms
>> (as per the original home plans-- first owner left out the wall to make
>> one huge suite). No big deal, I go in and build a simple 14-or-so foot
>> stud wall and lift into place.
>>
>> My helper and I lift the wall up and discover a gap you could fit a 2x4
>> in sideways at the top of the wall, where it t-bones the exterior
>> load-bearing wall. That's right, the wall is leaning out at the top,
>> 3-1/2 inches. You don't even need a 4' level to see something like
>> that. I'm wondering how no one caught this.
>>
>> We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
>> look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
>> each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least 1/8
>> inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
>> reverse, up the entire wall.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -MIKE-
>
> that's a design feature, not a bug
>

Yeah. lol
The designation was assigned somewhere between the architect and final
inspection.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <[email protected]>,
evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level and
>plumb? What a pain in the ass.
<...snipped...>

not level or plumb is bad enough, just try it when they aren't even _flat_



--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

John Grossbohlin wrote:

>
> "charlie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
>>> We go outside to look at the wall from the exterior... it's brick. I
>>> look straight up the wall, from the garage door opening, and can see
>>> each row of bricks is sitting out further than the next, by at least 1/8
>>> inch. The wall looks like a little staircase with tiny steps going in
>>> reverse, up the entire wall.
>>>
>>> -MIKE-
>>
>> that's a design feature, not a bug
>
> You must work with software... LOL
>
> John

Kinda sorry I started this thread. Did realize there's some really shitty
workmanship out there and wondered how any of them keep their license.
Guess that's why in tough times the ones with the reputation are still
busy. I seem busier then when things were going nuts. I know I'm in a
business that is sometimes looked at like lawyers, used car salesman, and
Politicians. I just do the best I can and at the end ask the customer if
their happy and if there's something they're not happy with? I usually get
a big smile and a NO. Do your homework!!!!!

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Last year I
> was working on a floor wearing hard plastic knee pads and I found if I put
> too much weight on my knees I slid down the floor and hit the wall.
>
> Tim W
>

<SPEW!> lmao!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

John Grossbohlin wrote:
> My problem is I do construction like it's furniture. ;~) I know it, and
> I also know it's nuts! LOL The facia and soffits on my house are, after
> renovation, perfectly level in all directions and in one plane... come
> put a laser level on it and see for yourself!

The sad part is that you have to jokingly refer to that kind of
attention to detain as doing it "like it's furniture."

There is no reason for it to be any different. I've always said, "There
are a million ways to do something, and one right way." You did it the
right way.

There is no reason for anything in a house to be out of plumb or out of
square or not in a straight line.

I think the main issues are unskilled, often illegal, workers, coupled
with the fact that there are no GC's who do everything or use the same
crews anymore. If the framers know they're going to catch heck from the
drywallers, and the drywallers know they're going to catch heck from the
trim guys and cabinet guys, and the plumbers and HVAC guys know that the
GC is going to rip them a new one for cutting giant holes in the wrong
places in joists, then they have accountability.

But they're all fly-by-nighters now and no one knows or cares who did
the job or who screwed it up. The "Home Builder" is an LLC and he'll
cookie-cutter as many McMansions as fast as he can, make a couple
million, go bankrupt and move to the Keys until he runs out of money...
then start up all over again under a different name.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Mike O. wrote:

> On Wed, 06 May 2009 23:55:33 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only problem
>>I have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all
>>this shifting?
>
> Nail the jamb near the top and bottom of each jamb side near the
> hinges on that side and about the same place on the lock side. Get
> the door pretty much set (level and plumb) with your shims. Only the
> 4 nails are still holding things close. Tap the jambs in or out,
> where you need them, and add nails as you go. Check your clearance
> along the way.
>
> Mike O.

That's the way I normally do it. But when the wall is out by 1/2" the other
side is a bit difficult to keep the door in line with the stops or drywall
edge. Either the bottom of door sticks out of the jam or the top is to far
inside the jam. Then it's time to get the Sawzall out and readjust the
hinge side.

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

In news:[email protected],
Upscale <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
> "Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
>> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year
>> old that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't
>> installed straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the
>> load.=20
>=20
> Any chance it's caused by wood shrinkage/movement or can you now see
> some space between hinge leaves?

Like Puckdropper, I have much the same problem. My slab is still =
perfect (steel), however, the lock side jamb has warped such that it =
takes some grunting to open or close. I have tried the big screw to the =
problem area with no improvement. Anyone know of a good way to prevent =
this happening that I can apply to my new pre-hung door??

P D Q

PDQ wrote:

>
>
> In news:[email protected],
> Upscale <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
>> "Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
>>> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year
>>> old that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't
>>> installed straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the
>>> load.
>>
>> Any chance it's caused by wood shrinkage/movement or can you now see
>> some space between hinge leaves?
>
> Like Puckdropper, I have much the same problem. My slab is still perfect
> (steel), however, the lock side jamb has warped such that it takes some
> grunting to open or close. I have tried the big screw to the problem area
> with no improvement. Anyone know of a good way to prevent this happening
> that I can apply to my new pre-hung door??
>
> P D Q
Sounds like it's time to get out the planner and build some muscle.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

In news:[email protected],
evodawg <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
> PDQ wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> In news:[email protected],
>> Upscale <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
>>> "Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
>>>> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year
>>>> old that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't
>>>> installed straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the
>>>> load.
>>>=20
>>> Any chance it's caused by wood shrinkage/movement or can you now see
>>> some space between hinge leaves?
>>=20
>> Like Puckdropper, I have much the same problem. My slab is still
>> perfect (steel), however, the lock side jamb has warped such that it
>> takes some grunting to open or close. I have tried the big screw to
>> the problem area with no improvement. Anyone know of a good way to
>> prevent this happening that I can apply to my new pre-hung door??
>>=20
>> P D Q
> Sounds like it's time to get out the planner and build some muscle.

Already did that and gave up when I detetrmined how much really had to =
disappear.
Didn't want to pull the jambs just to shave off some swelling.

That is why I now have a new pre-hung door to install. I have been =
toying with the idea of painting the backside of the jambs in an effort =
to seal them before installation.

P D Q

PDQ wrote:

>
>
> In news:[email protected],
> evodawg <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
>> PDQ wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In news:[email protected],
>>> Upscale <[email protected]> dropped this bit of wisdom:
>>>> "Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
>>>>> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year
>>>>> old that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't
>>>>> installed straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the
>>>>> load.
>>>>
>>>> Any chance it's caused by wood shrinkage/movement or can you now see
>>>> some space between hinge leaves?
>>>
>>> Like Puckdropper, I have much the same problem. My slab is still
>>> perfect (steel), however, the lock side jamb has warped such that it
>>> takes some grunting to open or close. I have tried the big screw to
>>> the problem area with no improvement. Anyone know of a good way to
>>> prevent this happening that I can apply to my new pre-hung door??
>>>
>>> P D Q
>> Sounds like it's time to get out the planner and build some muscle.
>
> Already did that and gave up when I detetrmined how much really had to
> disappear. Didn't want to pull the jambs just to shave off some swelling.
>
> That is why I now have a new pre-hung door to install. I have been toying
> with the idea of painting the backside of the jambs in an effort to seal
> them before installation.
>
> P D Q
Never heard of that, think that might be going a little to far. Just install
it with enough of a gap that if it does swell you're covered. I live in a
dry area and when it rains it does swell. I leave about 1/8th of an inch.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Mike O. wrote:
> On 08 May 2009 06:55:01 GMT, Puckdropper
> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year old
>> that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't installed
>> straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the load.
>
> It's pretty rare that the hinges would give up in a year.
>
> What's it doing?
> Can you see poor clearances anywhere now?
> Does it seem like one side is dropping?
> Could the door be warping?
>
> Mike O.

Those cheap pre-hungs have such thin casements that they can bow out if
not shimmed and nailed in enough.

Around here, it's very common to see them installed with only the
pre-attached trim nailed through the drywall and *no* nails or shims
through the casement. Not kidding.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:

> Mike O. wrote:
>> On 08 May 2009 06:55:01 GMT, Puckdropper
>> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>>
>>> We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year old
>>> that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't installed
>>> straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the load.
>>
>> It's pretty rare that the hinges would give up in a year.
>>
>> What's it doing?
>> Can you see poor clearances anywhere now?
>> Does it seem like one side is dropping?
>> Could the door be warping?
>>
>> Mike O.
>
> Those cheap pre-hungs have such thin casements that they can bow out if
> not shimmed and nailed in enough.
>
> Around here, it's very common to see them installed with only the
> pre-attached trim nailed through the drywall and *no* nails or shims
> through the casement. Not kidding.
>
>

Ive seen that in your lower cost tract house, (500,000 Moderate home price
here a few years back). No shims and the casement or trim holding the door
in place. I couldn't believe it when I first saw it. I thought what a neat
trick, to bad it doesn't work.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

> The door misses the catch consistently, and has to be lifted via the knob
> to engage it.
>
> I just checked with the level. The frame is straight, but installed
> skewed. Over 4', the frame is out of plumb by 1/4". (I bet this is
> where the problem is.)
>
> The hinges aren't that great either, the top hinge allows quite a bit of
> play between the two halves. Lifting the door can align or mis-align the
> hinges by 1/32-1/16". Several of the frame-side screws have stripped
> out, and a few of them were working their way out. The door-side screws
> were all tight, though.
>
> Puckdropper

I'm sure you know this, but someone lurking may not.

It's a good idea to replace one hinge screw (casement side) per hinge,
with a long (3+") screw, that goes all the way through the casement,
shims, jack stud and king stud. For heavy doors, like thick solid wood
panel doors, replacing two per hinge can do wonders for keeping
everything straight and operating properly.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

>
>> Around here, it's very common to see them installed with only the
>> pre-attached trim nailed through the drywall and *no* nails or shims
>> through the casement. Not kidding.
>
> The exterior doors on the manufactured home I live in were pretty much
> installed that way. They had a dozen or so 3" staples through the
> brick-mould and that was about it. Getting those doors to function in
> anything like a "normal" manner took a bit of doing.
>
> --
> Tim Douglass
>

I think I've seen that, too.
I talked to a rep from a door company, who was at Lowes for whatever
reason. I was asking him about those "clam-shell" doors with the
pre-installed trim. He said those staples were never intended to be the
final attachment fasteners. He said they're just in there to hold the
trim on through shipping and to help square the door during
installation. They always recommend finish nails installed on site.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Tim Douglass wrote:
>> It's a good idea to replace one hinge screw (casement side) per hinge,
>> with a long (3+") screw, that goes all the way through the casement,
>> shims, jack stud and king stud. For heavy doors, like thick solid wood
>> panel doors, replacing two per hinge can do wonders for keeping
>> everything straight and operating properly.
>
> Make sure you put shims behind the casement right where the screws go
> before driving those long screws. Most cheap door installations don't
> have any shims behind the hinges, so that whole side flexes and if you
> put a long screw in you will make things much worse.
>

Yes, I should have typed shims in all caps. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Puckdropper wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm sure you know this, but someone lurking may not.
>>
>> It's a good idea to replace one hinge screw (casement side) per hinge,
>> with a long (3+") screw, that goes all the way through the casement,
>> shims, jack stud and king stud. For heavy doors, like thick solid wood
>> panel doors, replacing two per hinge can do wonders for keeping
>> everything straight and operating properly.
>>
>
> That sounds like a good suggestion, -MIKE-. I plan on taking it.
>
> Puckdropper

Like another guy reiterated, make sure you shim it or it will keep
pulling.

That actually can come in handy. When I run across a door sticking in
its jam, first thing I try is putting a long screw in the opposite hinge
to see if it will pull back in line. Works a lot of the time.

Usually, if it were done to start, it would never had sagged.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

1D10T wrote:

>
> How dare you spell "politician" with a capital "P"!


You're right Lowercase applies

1D10T wrote:
> "Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 06 May 2009 23:55:33 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only problem
>>> I
>>> have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all this
>>> shifting?
>> Nail the jamb near the top and bottom of each jamb side near the
>> hinges on that side and about the same place on the lock side. Get
>> the door pretty much set (level and plumb) with your shims. Only the
>> 4 nails are still holding things close. Tap the jambs in or out,
>> where you need them, and add nails as you go. Check your clearance
>> along the way.
>
> I never use nails to install/repair a door. Screws for me!
>

Just curious. What do you do to the screw heads?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

1D10T wrote:
>>> I never use nails to install/repair a door. Screws for me!
>> Just curious. What do you do to the screw heads?
>
> Probably what you do to the nail heads. It's no more of an issue with screws
> than with nails. As with nails, I do try to place them where they'll be
> under the stop molding, which also leaves nail heads to be dealt with.
>

Ever try those trim screws with the little heads?
I've used them on other things and they're nice, but easy to pull through.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

1D10T wrote:
> and the ability to move or loosen them easily.
>

Tru dat.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 1D10T wrote:
>>>> I never use nails to install/repair a door. Screws for me!
>>> Just curious. What do you do to the screw heads?
>>
>> Probably what you do to the nail heads. It's no more of an issue with
>> screws than with nails. As with nails, I do try to place them where
>> they'll be under the stop molding, which also leaves nail heads to be
>> dealt with.
>
> Ever try those trim screws with the little heads?
> I've used them on other things and they're nice, but easy to pull through.

No I haven't, but with the small heads they're probably as bad as using
casing or finishing nails. The two reasons I like screws are the head size
and the ability to move or loosen them easily.

"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level
> and
> plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
> never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the
> framers
> even used a level?


I can honestly say that I have never seen walls that are plumb or door
openings that are square. I have done the prehung door thing many times on
less than desirable walls and openings. Thank goodness the door openings
are bigger than necessary, HUH?

"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 06 May 2009 23:55:33 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only problem
>>I
>>have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all this
>>shifting?
>
> Nail the jamb near the top and bottom of each jamb side near the
> hinges on that side and about the same place on the lock side. Get
> the door pretty much set (level and plumb) with your shims. Only the
> 4 nails are still holding things close. Tap the jambs in or out,
> where you need them, and add nails as you go. Check your clearance
> along the way.

I never use nails to install/repair a door. Screws for me!

evodawg wrote:

> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level
> and plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I
> have never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the
> framers even used a level?


If only two things are messed up in a framing job it will be the
master bedroom ceiling and the front entrance door framing.

basilisk

On Wed, 06 May 2009 22:44:28 -0500, basilisk <[email protected]>
wrote:

>If only two things are messed up in a framing job it will be the
>master bedroom ceiling and the front entrance door framing.

Re. the MBR ceiling - this excerpt from a letter from a WWI soldier to
his wife:

"Honey, take a good look at the floor, because when I get home all you
are going to see is the ceiling."

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Definition of a teenager: God's punishment for enjoying sex.

evodawg wrote:
> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level and
> plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
> never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the framers
> even used a level?

Fortunately we did were renting but one house we lived in was the worst
out of square house I ever lived in. The good thing was the lazy cat.
He would lay on the floor for hours hit the ball up the floor and watch
it roll back to him. After living in the house for several years we
moved, to a house that was more square with the world.

The cat was frustrated for months because he would have to get up and
chase his ball as it would not roll back to him.

"evodawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any of you guys tried to install pre-hung doors when walls aren't level
> and
> plumb? What a pain in the ass. Installed 5 and they took forever. I have
> never seen a house this bad. Nothing is square or plumb and I get to
> install the kitchen cabinets too. Oh I can't wait!! I wonder if the
> framers
> even used a level?

The house I live in now is around 50 years old... The builder was a real
genius and unfortunately dead or I'd sue him... It's built on a slab with
no
foundation underneath. the slab is at ground level in front of the house.
Behind the house the property slants into the house foundation so water runs
up to, down and under the house. The kitchen sink's drain, at the back of
the house went into the slab but was never connected to the main drain so
for 30 years we ran dishwashing water including a dishwasher down there and
eroded away the dirt...

The center of my house is stable. The back left corner is stable. The
front left corner is down 4". The front right corner is down 4.5" and the
rear right corner was down almost 8".

I just finished lifting the house and re-leveling the entire thing, putting
in foundations and new basement walls as well as a poured floor and a
channel around the exterior of the floor to catch any water that may someday
be there. Regraded the outside of the house. Fixed the aluminum siding
(half was installed pre-settle and half post-settle!) While lifting, the
copper drain pipe from the second floor separated from the main drain. The
cast iron did not. Had to fix that. I've had a storage container in my
driveway for 6 months.

The entire 2nd floor was done after the house settled. Half of the first
floor was remodeled mid-settle.

I have 14 doors to rehang inside and two entrance doors. I have a garage
door to hang but the slab is cracked and heaved 3" in the center of the
doorway so I have to fix that first...

I have to fix stress cracks, replace windows, fix buckled siding and paint
it all.

I have until the end of June to do this. Why? Because I want to move
before my two kids start school in September.

I haven't decided whether I'm balding or just loosing my hair. <grin>
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

On 09 May 2009 04:48:29 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>The door misses the catch consistently, and has to be lifted via the knob
>to engage it.
>
>I just checked with the level. The frame is straight, but installed
>skewed. Over 4', the frame is out of plumb by 1/4". (I bet this is
>where the problem is.)

>The hinges aren't that great either, the top hinge allows quite a bit of
>play between the two halves. Lifting the door can align or mis-align the
>hinges by 1/32-1/16". Several of the frame-side screws have stripped
>out, and a few of them were working their way out. The door-side screws
>were all tight, though.

I've seen the hinge screws come loose on jambs before, especially on
particle board jambs. Probably stripped when they were manufactured.
You can try to glue some toothpicks or something in the holes and try
the screws again. If they still strip you can use some long utility
screws and go into the trimmer stud. Either method might pull the
door back toward the hinge side jamb enough to let it latch.

If not, and the clearances on the sides look okay but you see more gap
at the header on the lock side than the hinge side you can take the
trim off the hinge side (and maybe the two header pieces) and pry from
the bottom to lift the hinge side jamb.
This won't fix the out of plumb situation but it will let you put the
trim back where it was (except for height) so you don't have to paint
the walls again.

We had a pretty similar situation on a new house. We had trimmed the
house and after about 6 months the builder called to tell us that
there was a door that would no longer latch.
I went over to fix it. The door was at the head of the stairs and
sure enough the hinge side had dropped and the door wouldn't latch.
I got out my levels and the door was still plumb but the header was no
longer level. I re-set the door and told the builder that I thought
that the floor was sagging on one side of the stairs. He didn't
really think so but we got it fixed and all was okay.
Within the next year we had repaired the same door in three different
houses all of which were the same plan. On the last two you could see
the cracks in the sheet rock running from the corner of the opening
towards the ceiling. He finally believed me but it took him a while.
After that they extended the stair wall in the basement to pick up one
more floor truss. We never had to fix another one.

Mike O.

On Wed, 06 May 2009 23:55:33 -0700, evodawg <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Thanks for that detailed explanation of what I should do. The only problem I
>have with it is how do you hold the door frame when you're doing all this
>shifting?

Nail the jamb near the top and bottom of each jamb side near the
hinges on that side and about the same place on the lock side. Get
the door pretty much set (level and plumb) with your shims. Only the
4 nails are still holding things close. Tap the jambs in or out,
where you need them, and add nails as you go. Check your clearance
along the way.

Mike O.

On Fri, 8 May 2009 12:32:53 -0300, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Like Puckdropper, I have much the same problem. My slab is still perfect (steel), however, the lock
>side jamb has warped such that it takes some grunting to open or close.
>I have tried the big screw to the problem area with no improvement.
>Anyone know of a good way to prevent this happening that I can apply to my new pre-hung door??

You might try taking the trim off the lock side and see what's holding
it from moving with your screw. It may be that some of the insulation
needs to be removed (especially if it's foam) or, worst case, it may
be up against the framing already.

Mike O.

On 08 May 2009 06:55:01 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>We've got a prehung door in the house now that is less than a year old
>that's already having trouble shutting. Either it wasn't installed
>straight enough or the hinges were insufficient for the load.

It's pretty rare that the hinges would give up in a year.

What's it doing?
Can you see poor clearances anywhere now?
Does it seem like one side is dropping?
Could the door be warping?

Mike O.