Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board on
it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique is
fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).
Cheers,
cc
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it
> to
> produce a piece that is tapered?
A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece being
processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence that
would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?
Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
> relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result.
That all looks good on paper but the human element is not ever properly set
up. The human element is the reference point and it is very in consistent.
Do you expect
> your router to leave a tapered piece?
Yes, if I used it as a jointer to trim the entire edge of a board over and
over to achiece the desired width.
What's the difference between what
> the router is doing and what the jointer is doing?
Typically a router used free hand and in a table does not have two different
parallel surfaces that the wood is being processed on like that of a
jointer.
I think you've been
> settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch?
A jointer can produce good results but not as good as those done on the
proper machine.
I don't think you have been out to lunch so much as not having been trained
by a person that really knows what he is talking about.
You hear a lot of complaints about jointers, the reason is often because too
much is expected of them.
Andrew Barss wrote:
> Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
> parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
> other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
> reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give
> you anything comparable.
>
> -- Andy Bars
A straight edge is not the same as a parallel edge. You can make a
straight edge quite easily with only a plane. You can even make a
straight edge on two opposite sides of the same board. But getting them
straight AND parallel is an altogether different proposition. Do the
geometry ... without referencing the opposite edge, how will you know if
the two edges are parallel?
There IS a way ... but the jointer can't use it.
Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com
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James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the
>> blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for
>> this task.
>>
>> --
>> Stoutman
>> www.garagewoodworks.com
>>
>
> No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for
> anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another
> "confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that respect.
> I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few minutes
> setting the outfeed table and blades.
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
>
>
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> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
Cubby ... find a machinist who is willing to show you how. The whole
thing takes just moments. The indicator is used for a single series of
measurements with the understanding that you will need to do the same 3
second setup each time you start over.
I could show you how in 5 minutes and show you WAAAY mor than you will
ever need to know in 30. But I doubt if I can write anything up here
that will make much sense.
Understand that 1) the indicator must be firmly attached to a stable
base. 2) this stable base is resting on / sliding over the reference
plane (ie; on a jointer, one of the tables) 3) the surface being
adjusted will end up parallel to that plane. 4) the adjustements to be
made will consist of something called 'successive approximation' ...
even if you make the measurements under laboratory conditions, there
will always be measureable error left. If you can no longer measure the
error, great. But a better test instrument could. 5) the smallest level
of error you can reliably count on is 1/2 of 1 division on the dial.
That is, a dial indictaor marked in .001" increments can be relied on to
within .0005" +- .00025" To put this in perspective: at .003" you cannot
see wich of two blocks is the larger. Below .001" it is highly unlikely
that you can feel the difference between them.
All of which is to say ... don't waste time trying for more accuracy and
precision than you need. If you can reliably make cuts to within 1/64"
of where you intended them, you are a better man than I am and far
better than many who nonetheless do outstanding work.
An indicator is an excellent way to set a blade. Mark my words. But it
is not the only way to skin that particular cat.
Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com
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"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at
> my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
> operation.
>
> How good is Nahmie's saw? He routinely does this as well.
>
And I think we all agree including Norm that he does not always do things
correctly.
> Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
> at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
> and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).
By doing it "several times", yes, you will possibly accumulate error that
can be measured with a caliper. I think the OP is seeing taper with out
using a caliper.
If you start with parallel faces you should end up with parallel faces. If
you start with a taper you should end up with a taper.
>
> In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
> a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
> a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.
>
> A jointers function is to "face plane" stock and to do some
> edge work.
>
> Stoutman wrote:
>
>>>Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
>>
>>
>> Not on mine.
>>
>>
>>>Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
>>>surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
>>>parallel.
>>
>>
>> Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
> All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
> parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.
>
> Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
> check.
I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than
why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I
guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. <g>
Sounds like a loaded question, but I will answer it anyway.
I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.
--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why would you joint a strait board?
>
> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> > Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all
> jointers.
>>
>> Not on mine.
>>
>> > Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and
> flat
>> > surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
>> > parallel.
>>
>> Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at
my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
operation.
How good is Nahmie's saw? He routinely does this as well.
--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sounds like you need a better saw blade.
>
> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Sounds like a loaded question, but I will answer it anyway.
>>
>> I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.
>>
>
>
>> I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.
>
> The genesis of the question about a tapered rail on the bed slats?
Maybe. Not the slats though. The rails that join the slats.
I did however come up with a solution. As long as you cross cut both ends
of your rail using the same edge as your 90 reference against the fence, AND
you use the same reference edge in the slat joinery, taper will not have an
effect.
Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the
most comprehensive manner. :)
>
> ;)
>
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 2/07/07
>
>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Stoutman wrote:
>> >
>> > Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
>>
>>
>> Possibly.
>>
>> There is no parallel reference on a jointer. Jointers make a face flat,
>> and/or one face an exact angle to another, based on the setting of the
>> fence.
>>
>> Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. <G>
>>
>I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it to
>produce a piece that is tapered?
What is it about a jointer that would cause it to produce a piece that
is NOT tapered?
> Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
>relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result.
Well, that depends on what you are starting with. If the board already
has straight and parallel faces, then a "properly set up" jointer in the
hands of a good operator probably won't add a taper, if you're just making
a single shallow pass. That is what people that "rip to width, clean up on
jointer" rely on.
When you're starting with a cupped/twisted/bowed board and want to
flatten both sides, the chances that the two flattened faces will end up
parallel is pretty remote. That's why people flatten one side on the
jointer, then dimension the lumber on a planer.
...but I'm sure you agree, and the current argument is about the "rip
to width, clean up on jointer" process. (Some of the context has been lost
by editing.) So why bring in the flattening process? Because I'm sure
you'll also agree that the process of flattening will have rather
different results depending on how the operator applies pressure,
particularly in the transfer of weight from the infeed side to the outfeed
side. Especially in the beginning stages when there is still lots of curve
in the board - if you push one way to start cleaning up one part of the
board, you'll get a different result from what you'd get if you started
with pressure on a different point. That's where skill comes in.
...so I would argue (perhaps not strongly) that even when edge jointing
the saw-cut face, an operator that doesn't shift and balance pressure
between the infeed and outfeed sides runs the possibility of not making an
even cut, because there is nothing intrinsic in the design of the jointer
to prevent such uneven cutting.
...but I'd agree that this effect would be very small on a single,
shallow pass. And I think you'd probably agree that an unskilled operator
that takes several passes to both smooth the saw cut and reduce the board
width runs a risk of accumulating single unnoticable tapers into a
multi-pass noticable taper, because the jointer isn't going to do anything
to prevent it.
> Do you expect
>your router to leave a tapered piece? What's the difference between what
>the router is doing and what the jointer is doing? I think you've been
>settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch?
No, just disagreeing on what to have for a snack.
"George" <[email protected]> writes:
>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Hiya Folks,
>> Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed
>> table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe
>> and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info.
>> If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The
>> jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of
>> tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer
>> to remove the blade marks.
>Well, as close as possible, within wood tolerances. Though I'm still
>puzzled how you got the beginning of a board, as presented, narrower than
>the end which followed. That's characteristic of table droop, not high
>outfeed.
I can think of two possibilities:
1) the board is bowed (not straight, end-to-end), and he's holding the
board with the ends up and the middle down (as opposed to ends down and
middle up), and he's starting the cutting with pressure on the front of
the board, so the front edge is cut in the first pass. The tail of the
board is then well above the knifes when it gets there, on the first pass.
Subsequent passes keep cutting at the front, and eventually cut at the
back as the surface flattens, but the end result is a flat face with a
thin edge at the front (cut on every pass) and a thick one at the back
(only cut on last pass). Put pressure on the back first, and the opposite
occurs. You need to start with pressure in the middle, not the ends - or
even better, turn the board over so it sits on the two ends and they get
knocked off together. This is "technique". The less flat the board, the
more important that the technique be good.
2) something is a bit loose in the jointer tables. With no pressure on
them, everything seems to line up just fine - it is "properly set up". As
soon as pressure is placed on the infeed or outfeed table, however, it
droops. Thus, the droop or misalignment is there when cutting, but not
apparent when measured during setup.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
> from saw to glue up.
> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw
>> at
>> my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
>> operation.
>
>
Ok. So what is your point?
I think it is either that:
A) I am a shitty craftsman
B) I have higher standards for glue-ups.
--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com
> Stoutman,
>
> I don't know why this is irritating me tonight, but it seems like
> you're overlooking some pretty important things again.
>
> Things have to be done correctly, in the correct order, with the
> proper tools. It's your shop, and I'm glad you're happy with it- but
> you're going through a lot of extra work and probably frustration by
> apparently trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears.
>
> So here goes, a few tips you're sure to ignore.
Thanks for the chuckle professor!
> That is a solution, but the whole works will be out of square.
No it's not sir. The non-jointing edge of one rail will taper down. Both
ends are square to the slat jointing edge.
Let me know if you are still confused. I can make a cad drawing for you.
>>Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the
>>most comprehensive manner. :)
>
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya,
> I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
> I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
> trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
> be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
> checked the tables and they seem
> fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
> on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
> board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
> past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
> just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
> very fine line between snipe and taper here or
> is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
> is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
> been using a jointer with no problems).
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
Hiya Folks,
Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed table
relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe and
without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info. If
nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The jointer
needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of tolerances. And, I
need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer to remove the blade
marks.
Cheers.
cc
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the
> blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for
> this task.
>
> --
> Stoutman
> www.garagewoodworks.com
>
No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for
anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another
"confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that respect.
I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few minutes
setting the outfeed table and blades.
Cheers,
cc
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:02:49 -0500, "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>>> I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.
>>
>> The genesis of the question about a tapered rail on the bed slats?
>
>Maybe. Not the slats though. The rails that join the slats.
>
>I did however come up with a solution. As long as you cross cut both ends
>of your rail using the same edge as your 90 reference against the fence, AND
>you use the same reference edge in the slat joinery, taper will not have an
>effect.
That is a solution, but the whole works will be out of square.
>Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the
>most comprehensive manner. :)
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> : What woud be a better analogy?
>
>
> I'm not sure. What makes the TS special compared to a jointer (or
> planer, or router with a straight bit) is that the blade extends
> back several inches from where it cuts, and it doesn't have a reference
> straightedge without the fence.
>
> I guess the best I can think of is ripping on a TS (or a bandsaw)
> with the fence in place, but with the waste side running along the fence.
> So, you have aboard with one straight edge (call it A), a
> rough edge B to be trimmed, and you run B along the fence.
> The resulting trimmed edge C isn't going to necessarily be
> parallel to A.
>
>
>
> Where things get dodgy (or my thinking about 'em does) is
> when you have A and B already parallel -- trimming it with B running
> along the fence WILL give you a new edge C which is parallel to A.
> Jointer is supposed to go the same way (i.e. the "rip on a TS to width
> plus a hair, trim hair with jointer" approach). But I have a gutt
> feeling it won't be necessarily parallel to A unless the operator
> has impeccable technique.
OK, I agree, you probably have a better analogy here. At least closer
anyway ;~)
"Leuf" wrote in message
>"Swingman" wrote:
> >As Leon correctly stated, a jointer simply should not be used in an
attempt
> >to make opposite faces/edges "parallel".
>
> The practice I have seen on woodworking tv shows goes like joint one
> edge, rip on TS 1/32" oversize, then go back to the jointer to take
> that 1/32" off. If the jointer isn't introducing a taper then they
> should still be parallel.
Yep ... as long as the first step was joint an edge, then rip to width, that
should work providing the jointer is setup properly and you're a practiced
hand with the machine.
AAMOF, it's not uncommon to do that on panel glue-ups to take advantage of
complementary angles by jointing adjoining boards one edge face in, the
other face out.
That is not the same as what I stated above, however.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
>
> "B A R R Y" wrote in message
> > Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. <G>
> >
>
> I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it
to
> produce a piece that is tapered?
It doesn't have to be the jointer that causes the taper ... it can be the
stock, or even poor technique, or a combination of the two.
> Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
> relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result.
Providing that the stock is flat, the faces/edges are parallel start with,
and the technique is a practised one, yes. But getting stock to that point
is not going to be done by the jointer alone, unless you're lucky. ;)
I was under the impression that was Barry's point.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
> Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
> surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
> parallel.
>
>
>
I'm not trying to edge both edges with the jointer. I'm just trying to get
my one true edge so I can rip the other edge to parallel at the TS. I've
not had this problem before so I'm assuming an adjustment I made a few weeks
ago to eliminate snipe may have been too much of an "adjustment".
Cheers,
cc
"Pat Barber" wrote in message
> Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
> at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
> and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).
>
> In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
> a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
> a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.
Then add in board "length" ... IME, even on some well set up machines, the
shorter the board the easier to induce taper, or in extremes, snipe.
You are dead on ... there are just too many variables/factors involved to be
using a jointer for anything else but it's intended function, which is not
'dimensioning" stock, but preparing it to be dimensioned.
... and that in a specific, precise and methodical manner/procedure.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
"George" wrote in message
> What's most interesting about this thread is the number of people who
don't
> understand how a jointer works.
You seem to have some misconceptions about its use/misuse yourself:
> If you have parallel edges, they will remain
> parallel if you use your properly adjusted jointer to clip the edges.
Unfortunately, that is very often not true, as these threads clearly point
out.
The edges, or faces, of dimensioned stock are usually "parallel", but rarely
perfectly flat. Despite well set up machines and practiced technique, run
that stock over a jointer and the edges/faces are guaranteed to be no longer
"parallel".
Again, a jointers intended use is not for "dimensioning" stock, but for
preparing it to be dimensioned.
Use it any other way and the unwary should be prepared to be surprised with
stock that is tapered to some extent.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> With each pass of the board across the jointer knives which are banging
> against the board that they are cutting, the reference,"you", cannot
> provide absolute resistance like a TS fence or thickness planer base.
> There is too much give in your hands and skin to insure a perfectly
> straight path across the knives. The path may seem smooth and controlled
> however the resulting taper is proof that some give in your hold is the
> culprit. The shallower the cut the longer it takes for the taper to
> "visually" appear.
>
>
Sounds like an operator problem. If you hold to the properly set _limiting_
references, nothing bad will happen.
So just how does a plane work, Leon?
Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
from saw to glue up.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at
> my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
> operation.
"George" wrote in message
> Really? I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
> length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
> parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure
the
> difference.
Theorectically possible, providing you start with stock that is both
parallel AND perfectly "flat", but if your stock is already flat and
parallel there are much better ways to dimension it than running it over a
jointer.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
Sounds like you need a better saw blade.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sounds like a loaded question, but I will answer it anyway.
>
> I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.
>
"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
> at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
> and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).
>
> In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
> a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
> a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.
>
> A jointers function is to "face plane" stock and to do some
> edge work.
>
Oh I don't need calipers to see the taper forming. I had one board that I
had to continue to run through several times before it started jointing the
trailing edge of the board. By that point, I could visually tell that I
had taken much more material off the front vs. the rear. I think I'll go
spend some time today fiddling with the outfeed table height and see what I
come up with.
Cheers,
cc
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>>
>
> Ok, so it seems that a hair high gives me snipe and a hair low gives me
> taper. I'll have to take a look
> at it again tomorrow and run some wood through it at different heights to
> see if I can eliminate both!
> Cheers,
> cc
Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> What's most interesting about this thread is the number of people who
> don't understand how a jointer works.
That is true and place your self in the group that has not been properly
trained by a qualified instructor if you still believe that a taper will not
result.
"Leuf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The practice I have seen on woodworking tv shows goes like joint one
> edge, rip on TS 1/32" oversize, then go back to the jointer to take
> that 1/32" off. If the jointer isn't introducing a taper then they
> should still be parallel.
I have seen that too. I have also seen the shows use a guard when cutting
dado's on the TS. Because it is on TV does in mean it is right. My shop
teacher would give licks to any one that used the jointer on opposite sides
of a board. The TV shows that use a jointer after the TS are using the
jointer incorrectly and are not using a properly set up TS. I would not
dream of depending on a jointer to bring a board to an exact edge or
thickness. If the jointer was intended to make surfaces parallel it would
have a gauge like all other tools intended to make surfaces parallel.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
>> parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.
>>
>> Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
>> check.
>
> I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer
> than why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences?
> I guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. <g>
>
Yeah a bit confused. ;~) The fancy Bess fences give us the parallel
surfaces and with a great blade usually a surface that is smoother than what
the typical jointer will leave and the correct width.
Seriously, talk to some one that teaches proper use of a jointer, you may be
enlightened.
Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).
In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.
A jointers function is to "face plane" stock and to do some
edge work.
Stoutman wrote:
>>Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
>
>
> Not on mine.
>
>
>>Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
>>surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
>>parallel.
>
>
> Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hiya Folks,
> Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed
> table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe
> and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info.
> If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The
> jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of
> tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer
> to remove the blade marks.
Well, as close as possible, within wood tolerances. Though I'm still
puzzled how you got the beginning of a board, as presented, narrower than
the end which followed. That's characteristic of table droop, not high
outfeed.
What's most interesting about this thread is the number of people who don't
understand how a jointer works. Hopefully you're not one of them now,
having learned that the jointer removes a measured amount of stock
determined by the exposure of the knives from a board rested on the table
for best average straightness. If you have parallel edges, they will remain
parallel if you use your properly adjusted jointer to clip the edges.
Andrew seems to have set up his own straw man, but he's right in saying that
you don't _make_ stock parallel with a jointer normally. Takes scribing and
working it as the big plane it is to do that.
But, if your tablesaw produces a parallel but slightly fuzzy edge because
you've gone too long between sharpenings, or you're feeding too fast and it
vibrates, or you tuck it a bit into the side as you transition to the
push-stick, &cetera ... you can clean it up with a quick pass on the jointer
prior to gluing. Some of us are so lazy in the other areas we allow for one
pass in our original rip. Or three, with lower grade lumber where we might
release tension and get a bow in the resulting piece. Thing is to be smart
enough to sight it and repair it at the jointer. Betting ripping misfeeds
and less-than-great lumber are the reasons for people's stance against
jointers. Had they sighted after the rip, they might have other opinions.
I'm not Leon but am an experienced plane user. It works much the same way as
a jointer and it, like the jointer will not in any way ensure that the
planed side is parallel to the other side.
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So just how does a plane work, Leon?
>
George wrote:
>
> Really? I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
> length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
> parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure
> the difference.
>
> Assuming you set the outfeed properly, of course.
I'll simply credit you with superior jointer skills.
All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.
Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I
don't check.
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Stoutman wrote:
> >
> > Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
>
>
> Possibly.
>
> There is no parallel reference on a jointer. Jointers make a face flat,
> and/or one face an exact angle to another, based on the setting of the
> fence.
>
> Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. <G>
>
I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it to
produce a piece that is tapered? Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result. Do you expect
your router to leave a tapered piece? What's the difference between what
the router is doing and what the jointer is doing? I think you've been
settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:05:31 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
>
>> If you start with parallel faces you should end up with parallel faces.
>
>Not necessarily the case at all, either with edges, or faces. AAMOF, it you
>happen to have done so, just consider yourself lucky ... this time. ;)
>
>If the board has any edge or face bow the faces/edges can still be
>"parallel" ... joint one of those faces/edges and you will absolutely NO
>longer have parallel faces/edges.
>
>Then try to joint the opposite face/edge and you will be chasing your tail
>with "taper" on one or both ends ... guaranteed.
>
>As Leon correctly stated, a jointer simply should not be used in an attempt
>to make opposite faces/edges "parallel".
The practice I have seen on woodworking tv shows goes like joint one
edge, rip on TS 1/32" oversize, then go back to the jointer to take
that 1/32" off. If the jointer isn't introducing a taper then they
should still be parallel.
I don't follow that practice because I know I've got some warp on the
infeed table. I can run a square down the length of the fence and
it's square at the outfeed side and at the start of the infeed, but
not at the infeed just in front of the cutter. I don't do anything
about it at this point because a) I can't be bothered because it still
makes straight edges and that's what it's supposed to do b) I don't
have a straight edge long enough that I *really* trust c) I will
probably end up wasting two days screwing with it and not get any
better.
-Leuf
Why would you joint a strait board?
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all
jointers.
>
> Not on mine.
>
> > Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and
flat
> > surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
> > parallel.
>
> Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:15:24 -0500, "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>
>
>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
>> from saw to glue up.
>> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw
>>> at
>>> my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
>>> operation.
>>
>>
>
>Ok. So what is your point?
>
>I think it is either that:
>A) I am a shitty craftsman
>B) I have higher standards for glue-ups.
For a panel glue-up it doesn't reallly matter if the boards have a
little taper. Glue it up oversize and rip it parallel after. That's
the only time I run the second edge over the jointer.
-Leuf
The outfeed table should be at the same height as the blades. If it's not,
as you found out, snipe results.
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya,
> I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
> I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
> trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
> be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
> checked the tables and they seem
> fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on
> it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
> board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
> past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
> just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
> very fine line between snipe and taper here or
> is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is
> fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
> been using a jointer with no problems).
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
>>> parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.
>>>
>>> Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I
>>> don't check.
>>
>> I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer
>> than why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS
>> fences? I guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. <g>
>>
>
> Yeah a bit confused. ;~) The fancy Bess fences give us the parallel
> surfaces and with a great blade usually a surface that is smoother than
> what the typical jointer will leave and the correct width.
>
> Seriously, talk to some one that teaches proper use of a jointer, you may
> be enlightened.
>
Have to second that Leon - that's the way I always learned - joint the edge
flat and rip it parallel. I've had the RARE occasion of parallel edges after
jointing but I attribute it to pure luck.
Vic
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya,
> I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
> I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
> trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
> be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
> checked the tables and they seem
> fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on
> it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
> board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
> past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
> just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
> very fine line between snipe and taper here or
> is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is
> fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
> been using a jointer with no problems).
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
What I've found is that it is very important to ensure the total bed plane
is in proper alignment. It's easy to have the infeed tilted inward toward
the cutter head and the outfeed the opposite (or any of the myriad of other
combinations) - such that over the total length of the two beds, there is
not a parallelism. Co-planer and all those other words we like to throw
around. Re-do your measurements both at the cutter head and across the
total bed length.
Use your imagination and think about a piece of wood making its way through
the jointer bed in all of the various misalignment configurations.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
: A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece being
: processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence that
: would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?
Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give
you anything comparable.
-- Andy Bars
Bill in Detroit <[email protected]> wrote:
: Andrew Barss wrote:
:> Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
:> parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
:> other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
:> reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give
:> you anything comparable.
:>
:> -- Andy Barss
: A straight edge is not the same as a parallel edge.
Indeed it isn't.
All I was saying is that comparing (a) jointing an edge of a board
with a jointer (against the reference bed of the jointer) isn't
at all similar to freehand ripping on a tablesaw (i..e without the fence).
You can make a
: straight edge quite easily with only a plane. You can even make a
: straight edge on two opposite sides of the same board. But getting them
: straight AND parallel is an altogether different proposition. Do the
: geometry ... without referencing the opposite edge, how will you know if
: the two edges are parallel?
: There IS a way ... but the jointer can't use it.
As I clearly stated in my original post, I agree that the jointer is not the
proper tool to use to create parallel edges.
-- Andy Barss
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
: "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
:> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
:> : A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece
:> being
:> : processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence
:> that
:> : would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?
:>
:> Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
:> parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
:> other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
:> reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't
:> give
:> you anything comparable.
:>
:> -- Andy Bars
: With each pass of the board across the jointer knives which are banging
: against the board that they are cutting, the reference,"you", cannot
: provide absolute resistance like a TS fence or thickness planer base. There
: is too much give in your hands and skin to insure a perfectly straight path
: across the knives. The path may seem smooth and controlled however the
: resulting taper is proof that some give in your hold is the culprit. The
: shallower the cut the longer it takes for the taper to "visually" appear.
Pleae reread what I said, and/or the followup I posted. I am *agreeing with you*
that a jointer isn't able to give parallel edges.
But you were comparing (a) trying to get a parallel edge
on a board using a jointer to (b) trying to do the same
thing on a TS without a fence.
As I said, it's not a very good analogy.
-- Andy Barss
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
: "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
:>
:> As I said, it's not a very good analogy.
: What woud be a better analogy?
I'm not sure. What makes the TS special compared to a jointer (or
planer, or router with a straight bit) is that the blade extends
back several inches from where it cuts, and it doesn't have a reference
straightedge without the fence.
I guess the best I can think of is ripping on a TS (or a bandsaw)
with the fence in place, but with the waste side running along the fence.
So, you have aboard with one straight edge (call it A), a
rough edge B to be trimmed, and you run B along the fence.
The resulting trimmed edge C isn't going to necessarily be
parallel to A.
Where things get dodgy (or my thinking about 'em does) is
when you have A and B already parallel -- trimming it with B running
along the fence WILL give you a new edge C which is parallel to A.
Jointer is supposed to go the same way (i.e. the "rip on a TS to width
plus a hair, trim hair with jointer" approach). But I have a gutt
feeling it won't be necessarily parallel to A unless the operator
has impeccable technique.
-- Andy Barss
CW <[email protected]> wrote:
: I'm not Leon but am an experienced plane user. It works much the same way as
: a jointer and it, like the jointer will not in any way ensure that the
: planed side is parallel to the other side.
Yup.
The jointer plane actually works slightly differently, in that the sole
of the plane before and behind the mouth are coplanar (unlike the
beds of a powered jointer, where the infeed table is slightly lower
than the outfeed), and the blade protrudes down below both (unlike
a jointer, where the blades are even with the outfeed table).
This ought to produce diffrent results, I would think, but in practice
one can joint a pretty straight edge with a plane. I've never been sure
of exactly why!
-- Andy Barss
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> With each pass of the board across the jointer knives which are banging
>> against the board that they are cutting, the reference,"you", cannot
>> provide absolute resistance like a TS fence or thickness planer base.
>> There is too much give in your hands and skin to insure a perfectly
>> straight path across the knives. The path may seem smooth and controlled
>> however the resulting taper is proof that some give in your hold is the
>> culprit. The shallower the cut the longer it takes for the taper to
>> "visually" appear.
>>
>>
>
> Sounds like an operator problem. If you hold to the properly set
> _limiting_ references, nothing bad will happen.
>
> So just how does a plane work, Leon?
If you are asking about how a hand plate achieves parallel edges, the user
makes multiple passes and not all in the same spot.
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:42:59 -0500, "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>> Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
>
>Not on mine.
>
>> Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
>> surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
>> parallel.
>
>Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
Keep practicing.
Stoutman wrote:
>> All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
>> parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.
>>
>> Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
>> check.
>
> I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than
> why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I
> guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. <g>
>
My typical method of preparing stock:
- Cut the board to rough length with a hand or jigsaw.
- Possibly rip to rough width with the band saw. I don't always work
from a sawmill edge. If I'm not, I'd now create a roughly rectangular
board at the band saw, based on figure preference.
- Joint a face flat enough so I can thickness plane the other side.
This may leave hollows in the center of the board, as I'm not looking
for a perfect face yet.
- Thickness plane the non-jointed side flat, then flip the board to
totally flatten it and ensure both faces are parallel.
- Choose an edge and joint it 90 degrees to a face
- Rip the other edge to width, creating a second edge parallel to the
jointed edge.
This works great for me, others may prefer their own methods.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> A) I am a shitty craftsman
If you say so.
> B) I have higher standards for glue-ups.
I doubt it.
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Stoutman wrote:
>>
>> Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
>
>
> Possibly.
>
> There is no parallel reference on a jointer.
Really? I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure the
difference.
Assuming you set the outfeed properly, of course.
thanks Bill. I bought an indicator and base a while back but just haven't
figured out how to take more than one measurement without having to move the
thing to another location, thereby changing it's original reference. I'll
learn it one of these days. Thanks for the encouragement!
"Bill in Detroit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
>> "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the
>>> blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for
>>> this task.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stoutman
>>> www.garagewoodworks.com
>>>
>>
>> No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for
>> anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another
>> "confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that
>> respect. I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few
>> minutes setting the outfeed table and blades.
>> Cheers,
>> cc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 000713-4, 02/14/2007
>> Tested on: 2/14/2007 6:56:25 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
> Cubby ... find a machinist who is willing to show you how. The whole thing
> takes just moments. The indicator is used for a single series of
> measurements with the understanding that you will need to do the same 3
> second setup each time you start over.
>
> I could show you how in 5 minutes and show you WAAAY mor than you will
> ever need to know in 30. But I doubt if I can write anything up here that
> will make much sense.
>
> Understand that 1) the indicator must be firmly attached to a stable base.
> 2) this stable base is resting on / sliding over the reference plane (ie;
> on a jointer, one of the tables) 3) the surface being adjusted will end up
> parallel to that plane. 4) the adjustements to be made will consist of
> something called 'successive approximation' ... even if you make the
> measurements under laboratory conditions, there will always be measureable
> error left. If you can no longer measure the error, great. But a better
> test instrument could. 5) the smallest level of error you can reliably
> count on is 1/2 of 1 division on the dial. That is, a dial indictaor
> marked in .001" increments can be relied on to within .0005" +- .00025" To
> put this in perspective: at .003" you cannot see wich of two blocks is the
> larger. Below .001" it is highly unlikely that you can feel the difference
> between them.
>
> All of which is to say ... don't waste time trying for more accuracy and
> precision than you need. If you can reliably make cuts to within 1/64" of
> where you intended them, you are a better man than I am and far better
> than many who nonetheless do outstanding work.
>
> An indicator is an excellent way to set a blade. Mark my words. But it is
> not the only way to skin that particular cat.
>
> Bill
> --
> Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
> rascal less in the world.
> Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
> http://nmwoodworks.com
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 000713-4, 02/14/2007
> Tested on: 2/14/2007 7:15:06 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
"George" wrote in message
> But, apparently, not the obvious, which is that a parallel edge produced
by
> ripping against a _jointer-straightened_ edge, not the straw man, will
> remain parallel if a measured amount is removed along one edge by the
> jointer.
LOL! Quite different from your earlier, blanket statement, but close enough
for some purposes ... just like the results often obtained from using a
jointer for other than it's primary purpose.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> As I said, it's not a very good analogy.
What woud be a better analogy?
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
>
> Not on mine.
>
>> Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
>> surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
>> parallel.
>
> Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??
Try running a board edge on your jointer 15 to 20 times and see if the edges
are still parallel.
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:19:17 -0500, "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>
>> All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
>> parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.
>>
>> Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
>> check.
>
>I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than
>why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I
>guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. <g>
Stoutman,
I don't know why this is irritating me tonight, but it seems like
you're overlooking some pretty important things again.
Things have to be done correctly, in the correct order, with the
proper tools. It's your shop, and I'm glad you're happy with it- but
you're going through a lot of extra work and probably frustration by
apparently trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears.
So here goes, a few tips you're sure to ignore.
You've got a jointer, so I'll include that in the process- nothing
wrong with the tool, and you already have it.
When you get your stock, joint one face... if it needs it.
When it is flat, joint one edge, if it needs it, by putting the
jointed face against the fence.
If it needs it, plane the board to final thickness with the planer.
This insures that the two faces are parallel, which the jointer does
not do. If you do not own a planer, your next step involves a hand
plane and winding sticks, which can be fun to use as well- but going
back to the jointer will not help you unless you are doing a lot of
stock removal and just need to do some hogging off the thickness
before truing the piece by hand. You could also use a router with a
pair of "rails" on either side of the stock to adjust the thickness,
then sand or handplane the routed face- this will insure parallel
faces if done correctly.
After planing, rip the stock to width using your table saw, with the
jointed edge against the fence. This insures that both edges are
parallel, which the jointer does not do. Rip the piece to final
thickness- if you re-hit it with the jointer, you risk tapering it,
tearout, or leaving mill marks that are very difficult to sand out if
you feed too quickly, and will show up in your finish.
A good fence on the table saw is parallel to the blade without
excessive fiddling, is sturdy enough to prevent deflection when
ripping, and has an accurate indicator to allow for repeatable setups.
This will result in a glue-ready edge provided that you have a good,
clean, sharp blade, and have carefully set up your saw.
Then, crosscut the board to finished length. Occasionally, it will
make sense to route or rip dadoes down an entire length before
crosscutting, or route a profile on an edge, but we're just talking
about a simple rectangle here.
There you have it. It's a simple, time tested method for preparing
stock. All the gadgets and gizmos in the world will not do a better
job if you ignore the process. You can get your jointer to
micrometric precision, but if the fence on your table saw is out by a
sixteenth, it isn't going to matter. Nor will it matter if your table
saw is set to within one-tenth of a second of 90* if you are not
cutting a final edge with it, or if the ass end of the fence is
sliding out of adjustment when you're ripping (which happens fairly
frequently with your $15 Delta stock fence, if mine was anything to go
by.)
Once again, there is no magic bullet. There is no substitute for
thought, care and practice. A gadget will help you in some cases, but
you are losing something very important in the long run. If you're
not willing to discover what that is, there is no way for me to
explain it to you.
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>>
>
> I'm not trying to edge both edges with the jointer. I'm just trying to
> get my one true edge so I can rip the other edge to parallel at the TS.
> I've not had this problem before so I'm assuming an adjustment I made a
> few weeks ago to eliminate snipe may have been too much of an
> "adjustment".
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
Good. I thought that when you stated that the jointer tapered your board
that you were trying to prevent the taper. You are really only looking for
straight and flat edges.
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya,
> I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
> I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
> trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
> be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
> checked the tables and they seem
> fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
> on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
> board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
> past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
> just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
> very fine line between snipe and taper here or
> is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
> is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
> been using a jointer with no problems).
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
Ok, so it seems that a hair high gives me snipe and a hair low gives me
taper. I'll have to take a look
at it again tomorrow and run some wood through it at different heights to
see if I can eliminate both!
Cheers,
cc
In article <[email protected]>, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The edges, or faces, of dimensioned stock are usually "parallel", but rarely
>perfectly flat.
I see you *finally* understand the reason for using a jointer on S4S lumber.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
> : A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece
> being
> : processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence
> that
> : would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?
>
> Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
> parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
> other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
> reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't
> give
> you anything comparable.
>
> -- Andy Bars
With each pass of the board across the jointer knives which are banging
against the board that they are cutting, the reference,"you", cannot
provide absolute resistance like a TS fence or thickness planer base. There
is too much give in your hands and skin to insure a perfectly straight path
across the knives. The path may seem smooth and controlled however the
resulting taper is proof that some give in your hold is the culprit. The
shallower the cut the longer it takes for the taper to "visually" appear.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> If you start with parallel faces you should end up with parallel faces.
Not necessarily the case at all, either with edges, or faces. AAMOF, it you
happen to have done so, just consider yourself lucky ... this time. ;)
If the board has any edge or face bow the faces/edges can still be
"parallel" ... joint one of those faces/edges and you will absolutely NO
longer have parallel faces/edges.
Then try to joint the opposite face/edge and you will be chasing your tail
with "taper" on one or both ends ... guaranteed.
As Leon correctly stated, a jointer simply should not be used in an attempt
to make opposite faces/edges "parallel".
These results can only be guaranteed with, and are jobs for the well setup
thickness planer and table saw for the normite, respectively, or the
appropriate planes for the neander.
If you do NOT follow this truism, it will eventually bite you in the butt
... guaranteed.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>
>> There is no parallel reference on a jointer.
>
> Really?
Yes really.
Unlike a TS, a thickness planer, a thickness sander, or a RAS the jointer
has no fixed reference to insure exact width or thickness. On paper the
jointer should give you parallel edges if you started with parallel edges
but with the jointer you enter the human factor that controlls the
reference.
I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
> length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
> parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure
> the difference.
With a single pass, perhaps but if you want a board 1/2" narrower the
accumilated error will probably be measurable. Better to have the TS set up
properly and there would be no reason to revisit the jointer.
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya,
> I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
> I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
> trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
> be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
> checked the tables and they seem
> fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
> on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
> board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
> past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
> just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
> very fine line between snipe and taper here or
> is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
> is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
> been using a jointer with no problems).
If the outfeed were high you would get the taper on the trailing portion.
You'd also hit the leading edge on the table, because the cutterhead had not
removed enough material. If the outfeed is low, you get the snipe you
induced by lowering. The symptom you report is a characteristic of outfeed
droop or not feeding with even pressure.
Recheck parallel, make sure your stock is not bowed in the middle causing
misfeed, and try again.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Swingman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The edges, or faces, of dimensioned stock are usually "parallel", but
>>rarely
>>perfectly flat.
>
> I see you *finally* understand the reason for using a jointer on S4S
> lumber.
>
But, apparently, not the obvious, which is that a parallel edge produced by
ripping against a _jointer-straightened_ edge, not the straw man, will
remain parallel if a measured amount is removed along one edge by the
jointer.