Why did Grizzly raise their prices?

<snip>

> Are things really getting worse, or is it just this old fart stage of life?

<snip>

Hi Swingman,

When I get together to play poker with some fellow retirees,
we usually spend the night bitching about taxes, inflation,
prescriptions, weight gain, etc etc. We have played together
off & on for 35+ years. Used to talk about sex...

If you want a real answer as to whether things are as bad
as you think they are, ask some 20 or 30 somethings who
are doing ok, just buying a house, starting a family etc.
Usually they are very optimistic about things.

If you think back when you were younger, the last thing
on your mind was taxes, inflation, etc.

So, yes, we are in the old fart stage.


Lou

Hi Swingman,

> Discounting the fact that "20 or 30 somethings " aren't old enough to have
> any "perspective" on how much these things have changed, can you be certain
> that the only reason they are "optimistic about things" is that they are
> anticipating more SEX?

This is exactly the (my) point.

A that age, we didn't need no stinkin' perspective either.

Now (as old farts) we've got perspective up the wazoo...

;-)

Lou

"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:tvFBd.6886$wu4.4275@attbi_s52...
> Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
> will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
> foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
> are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
> strictly American unless, they out source to China.
>
>

Ether way a more popular brand is most likely a better way to go.
I thought about it for a long time before I bought my Jet 6" jointer. Now I
see Griz's 6" heaby duty jointer, with hand wheels, is more money after
freight then my Jet was 6 or so months ago. But now I see Jet apparently has
raised their price too as it is about 10% higher so they all may be raising
prices.
If resale value is a concern, my bet is Jet, Delta, or Powermatic will
resell at a better price than Grizzly.
Greg

"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> Check out the only Grizzly tool currently listed from:
>
<http://www.bargainnews.com/BNO/CatResult.cfm?RequestTimeout=5000&make=Tools
>
>
> "JOINTER,
> 6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
> 0-90 deg, good cond, $125. (203) 254-0164 . Fairfield "
>
> $125? <G>
>
>

I wonder how long it takes to sell it! If I had seen it in my area for that
price I would have grabbed it without even argueing the price.
Before I bought my Jet I watched adds for a couple of years. Any reputable
brand asking price was almost new price. In fact I just saw a Jet 6"
advertised in the local rag for $500. It was only listed for a couple of
days so my bet is it is gone. I see Sears/Craftsman jointers like this one
http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1754 for sale for $200 often!
They are garbage as far as I am concerned.
One day I told my wife that if I died to watch what she sells my tools for!
I said to get a tool catalog and ask 80% of new price!
Greg

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:19:14 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:

>
>Of course then there's the AlGore modification,where government money should
>go to "the right people...."
>

... and then there's the GB II modification, where the prez
spends huge amounts of money but does not have the
morals or courage to collect enough taxes to pay for it
(come to think of it, that Ronnie Reagan did the same
thing).

Here's one of the reasons...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-10-13-steel-prices_x.htm



On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:42:27 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"George" <george@least> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> As I recall, Cat also reported that their costs for plate steel went up
>> 105%
>>> in the past year!
>>
>> Amazing, isn't it? First we get anti-dumping trade restrictions reversed
>> by
>> the WTO and then the price skyrockets. If we could build a steel mill
>> anywhere, now'd be the time.
>
>It seems that the economic downturn lasted so long that many companies
>closed mills. Now that the demand is way up internationally there is not
>enough capacity to meet the demand. Add in the Chinese buying up all the
>scrap they can get their hands on and the prices have gone WAY up... Also
>add in the fact that the opportunity costs of opening a new mill are huge,
>and the time to get one on line long, it's pretty hard for the industry to
>respond to the high demand quickly... and with the investor's luck it's
>arrival on the scene would probably correspond with a new downturn!
>
>John
>Glad I bought all my big iron in the past... except a big lathe that is. ;-)
>
>
>

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:41:30 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
>
>> We are a small company. When we open for business on Monday, material cost
>> aside, our cost of operation will be $225,000 more than last year to make
>> the same amount of product. .
>
>The overriding question I keep asking myself the past few years:
>
>Are things really getting worse, or is it just this old fart stage of life?
>
>Despite the fact that here in Houston it cost me approximately 52% more in
>material costs to "dry in" the same size house in 2004 than it did in 2002,
>there is NO inflation, doncha know.
>
[snipped for space]

Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please kill
some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

> I have lost all hope of classic American quality
> being what it once was. It seems like there has been some kind of
> shift in the last couple of decades - big corporations seem to
> have short-term profit in mind rather than long-term customer loyalty.


I hear you. I started my search for a cabinet saw three years ago with fond
memory of the Unisaws I used in the 60's through the early 80's. When I
started seeing what it had become since then, I bought a Grizzly 1023s -
better value and better looking.

I think "American Quality" is becoming the stuff you buy here under American
brand names with offshore parts and/or assembly. The eastern manufacturers
are starting to kick our butts just like the Japaneese automakers did 30
years ago. Hopefully it will have the same effect and the local
manufacturers will wake up and start providing quality again.

RonB

My thinking over my 52 years has changed, and as I get nearer to retirement my
dream of retiring to woodworking as an income making part time job has vanished
also. But it's because everything changes, you can't fight it, you either
embrace change and move forward, or fight it. (ten years ago that statement
would have pissed me off! Hard to believe I now actually agree with it) Some
simple illustrations to my point. How many blacksmiths do we need today verses
150 years ago? How many auto mechanics do we need today verses 100 years ago?
How many computer technicians do we need today verses 50 years ago. How many
composite lumber manufacturers did we have 30 years ago?
Any farmers out there I don't mean this statement generically because I grew up
in a farming community, and have friends who are both successful at farming and
those who are not. I'm just citing this one real example.
I have a relative who is a farmer. He thinks he should be able to make a living
farming 100 till able acres, his dad did. But he (son) has his satellite tv,
cell phones, and routine eating out, nice home, late model cars, and machinery
that get his crops in and out less than a month a year. Gee's, I'd sure like to
be able to support my family on 1 month of work a year! But he's hung up that
it's the corporate farmers that are driving him out of business. He's lost in
the mire of not understanding farming has changed, and if you try to make a farm
of 70 years ago produce the same relative income, under the same business model
you just can't. Same goes for almost anything our country has in good or
services.
I do business with a number of small specialty machine shops, they are so busy
they can't see straight have been for years, and their making money like they
have never made before. Why, because mass production of the same part 100,000
times at a few cents profit is difficult to compete with countries who's economic
model is cheaper than ours. But those who have embraced the short run, prototype
business, are raking in the money.
If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the "Orange County
Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom one of a
kind machines, and business is good.

Human nature is to be value minded consumers, if not, Walmart and the likes
wouldn't have any business. Your can't fool with free enterprise.

Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are doing
better than the one trying to build bookcases.

No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
all.

Phil



Ba r r y wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:41:30 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >And just how will all these laid off folks be able to support $13/lb steak
> >prices? And do you REALLY believe that China produces the same quality goods
> >as Europe and the US have for decades? And has "reality TV" already replaced
> >"religion" as the "opium of the people", as you watched?
>
> A while back, I heard a radio report where the report questioned
> employees of a Carolina textile plant buying Chinese made clothing in
> the hometown Wal-Mart. Apparently, "Buy American" means you should
> buy MY stuff, while I'll buy the cheapest crap I can, and not talk
> about YOUR job going away. But when MY job goes to China, I'll cry
> on the TV news that Wal-Mart ran my factory out of bidnet.
>
> Support your neighbor for real, or sooner or later, the hypocrisy is
> going to drag us all down a hole.
>
> Barry

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. I rarely watch it, but the point is
still valid.

Markets change, jobs and skills change, not much doesn't. I was sitting trying
to think of something that probably didn't change a lot, came up with bartender
and minister, but even they have different skills they utilize than the did 30
years ago. Bur if I were a bartender I'd be studying for a different job. One
of these days, a robot that is either a babe or a hunk, and can mix and pour
straight from their finger is gonna take that job over.... :-) But, that
minister job is rock solid, we humans got sin in our jeans......... :-)

"Bullwinkle J. Moose" wrote:

> OCC=Soap Opera
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:35:59 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >"Phil" wrote in message
> > >
> > >> If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the
> "Orange
> > >County
> > >> Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom
> one
> > >of a
> > >> kind machines, and business is good.
> > >
> > >Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
> > >niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by
> the
> > >entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly
> not a
> > >market that you can build a national economy upon.
> > >
> > >Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
> > >like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or
> until
> > >the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of
> entertainment..
> > >
> > > ... sound vaguely familiar?
> >
> > When that happens you change your niche.
> > If you're fixiated on the idea that a market will continue to exist
> > for a long time you're setting yourself up for trouble in the modern
> > world.
> >
> > So no, I don't think that in 20 years "Orange County Choppers" or
> > whatever will still be building the products they are today. I
> > couldn't tell you what products they will be building. But if they're
> > smart they'll still be occupying a very profitable niche somewhere.
> >
> > --RC
> >
> > "Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
> > 'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
> > fly with a club.
> > -- John W. Cambell Jr.

Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
"housing costs," not the cost of housing.

A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....

"igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
> Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please
kill
> some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
> before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:40:21 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
>
> >A dollar spent by government benefits everyone.
>
> Even the dollars spent by our ex-Governor who took kickbacks to vastly
> overpay for construction projects?
>

You left off the part that applies to the governor - he's one of the
undeserving rich, or hoped to be. The dollars spent for "prevailing wage"
and "affirmative action" preferences were a definite societal plus.
Besides, as you know, it's employment, regardless of output, that counts.
It's a liberal Shibboleth - don't you remember how the WPA "pulled the
country out of the depression?"

Of course then there's the AlGore modification,where government money should
go to "the right people...."

And to the moronic bookend boys who replied so viciously - GOTCHA!

"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> As I recall, Cat also reported that their costs for plate steel went up
105%
> in the past year!

Amazing, isn't it? First we get anti-dumping trade restrictions reversed by
the WTO and then the price skyrockets. If we could build a steel mill
anywhere, now'd be the time.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:18:49 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ok, Reagan had huge deficits. Do you think it only cost a dollar and ninety
>five cents to win the Cold War? Wasn't the deficit worth it? Years ago my
>wife and I took a tour with a group to Russia. I asked the tour guide that
>all we ever saw about Russia on TV was their military might. How come we
>don't see it any more? The tour guides response to me was, "your President
>Reagan broke us". Now Greg tell me if the deficit was worth it.
>You are obviously a liberal democrat and nothing Bush or the Republicans do,
>will you EVER agree with. I used to be a democrat when they were for the
>working man. Like in the days of Truman, Roosevelt, and JFK. Now look at
>who the leaders of my old party are.

We didn't win the Cold War, we just had a bigger credit line than they
did and outspent them. Now, we have to figure out how to pay back all
the money Reagan flushed in his insane effort to show up the Russians.
I knew Reagan was sending us into disaster and I've been a
conservative Republican my entire life. Hell, I VOTED for Reagan and
now think he turned out to be one of the worst presidents we've ever
had.

And news flash, neither party represents the working man. They
haven't for decades now.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:09:48 GMT, "Bullwinkle J. Moose"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>OCC=Soap Opera

Well, there's always been a strong market for soap opera.

--RC

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:35:59 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >"Phil" wrote in message
>> >
>> >> If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the
>"Orange
>> >County
>> >> Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom
>one
>> >of a
>> >> kind machines, and business is good.
>> >
>> >Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
>> >niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by
>the
>> >entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly
>not a
>> >market that you can build a national economy upon.
>> >
>> >Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
>> >like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or
>until
>> >the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of
>entertainment..
>> >
>> > ... sound vaguely familiar?
>>
>> When that happens you change your niche.
>> If you're fixiated on the idea that a market will continue to exist
>> for a long time you're setting yourself up for trouble in the modern
>> world.
>>
>> So no, I don't think that in 20 years "Orange County Choppers" or
>> whatever will still be building the products they are today. I
>> couldn't tell you what products they will be building. But if they're
>> smart they'll still be occupying a very profitable niche somewhere.
>>
>> --RC
>>
>> "Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
>> 'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
>> fly with a club.
>> -- John W. Cambell Jr.
>

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:31:48 -0600, WD <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:44:47 -0600, Joe Wells <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> They sell us trash and be sell them back trash, that's fair? Or, trash in
>>> trash out? :-)
>>
>>Sounds like eBay writ large...
>
>Wanna see more trash? This may be the beginning of the end of Detroit.
>
>http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm

Doubt it. People may buy junk tools and toasters, but cars that fall
apart don't last long in the market. You will notice a steady churn in
the cheap models arena as people keep looking for a cheap *good* car.
One doesn't exist because it costs too much to make a car good, but
people keep trying. Only if they bring quality will they stand a real
chance in the US auto market, and then they will have to be able to
compete on price against the other low-cost imports.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:18:49 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ok, Reagan had huge deficits. Do you think it only cost a dollar and ninety
>five cents to win the Cold War? Wasn't the deficit worth it?


It cost a huge chunk of our wealth and apx 90,000 US servicemens'
lives (and that's not counting the wounded) over a period of 40-odd
years to "win" the Cold War. Do you truly believe that RR was
"responsible ?" Or did he accelerate it by a few years ?

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:07:56 -0500, GregP <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:21:08 GMT, Ba r r y
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>We actually have local dealers here in East Westchester County who
>>sell Uni's in the $1650 range. The smaller, local guys, will match
>>Tool Crib, as did Wooddorker's Warehouse. Only Woodcraft dosen't do
>>local to web price matching.

> But back to the subject, that still makes the Unisaw the
> only one of the 3 selling for less than half of list price.

These are listings, not actual sale prices. The Unisaws sell in
hours, maybe the owners should ask more. The 1023 was listed for
months, I have no idea what the eventual selling price was.

My $400 Jet CS went in about an hour after listing it in the same web
/ paper ads. More calls were continually coming in as I helped the
guy load it up.

My original observation is that people would quickly line up to pay
$400 for a 6 year old Jet CS with stamped wings, yet nobody was
touching an 8 month old 1023SL, with sliding table, for $600.

If I didn't have a cabinet saw, I would have certainly investigated
the $600 Grizzly.

Barry

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 10:33:41 -0800, Tim Douglass <[email protected]>
wrote:

You think so, still remember those tin can shit in the 60's, Datsun or Toyota?
Toyota is the best-selling car today surpasses even GM, while Ford is struggling
to remain as a major player:-)

Never, never underestimate your competitors. There are differences between our
manufacturers here and elsewhere. In Japan, I presume later China; Our
manufacturers are more interested in big buck NOW, or how much they can rip us
today. While they (Japan, Taiwan, China etc.) gave us what some of us could not
never afford, No?

Look at the drugs' companies...racking billions and they do not allow our govt.
to negotiate for lower prices. Go to any HF and buy a set of hole saw for
two-ninety-nine, or looking longingly at a US-MADE hole saw for fifty bucks.
Maybe, they should enact laws, only family with more than $200,000 income
are allow to have woodworking hobby (just joking and I really do not mean it).

We can argue till the cow come home in the evening who is right.

Greed is what killing.

>Doubt it. People may buy junk tools and toasters, but cars that fall
>apart don't last long in the market. You will notice a steady churn in
>the cheap models arena as people keep looking for a cheap *good* car.
>One doesn't exist because it costs too much to make a car good, but
>people keep trying. Only if they bring quality will they stand a real
>chance in the US auto market, and then they will have to be able to
>compete on price against the other low-cost imports.
>
>Tim Douglass
>
>http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 20:03:59 GMT, max <[email protected]> wrote:

>I agree.
>While Amazon has some amazing deals, I feel it is only because they still
>have some competition. Their free shipping and discount pricing is very
>attractive, but what happens when all of the little guys are driven out of
>business?

That might be an interesting story. I live near Coastal Tool and
Tools Plus, two independent web vendors. Both say they make a fair
profit at Amazon's price, both routinely beat BORG prices. Both
vendors existed before Al's 'net, both were savvy enough to get
online. Since the item is already there, shipping is included, but
they collect tax. Legally, we in CT are required to pay use tax on
web and out of state purchases, so technically the tax is a wash.

We've actually had Western Tool move into the state to fill some of
Woodworker's Warehouse voids. Woodworker's Warehouse killed
themselves. <G>

>I used to subscribe to Fine Woodworking and a couple of the other WW mags.
>There used to be full page ads for tools from at least a dozen sellers. I
>picked up a copy recently and there were no such ads.

Woodshop News is full of tool vendor ads in CT, MA, and a large one in
"Tax Free NH". WSN may do regional issues as far as ads go, I'm not
sure.

>Amazon either killed or bought the competition.
>We are circling the drain as a country that used to lead the world in
>competition, quality and innovation.

I agree with most of what you said, but Amazon is simply one American
vendor competing with the rest. Mail order is as old as the mail.

Crap, with the exception of those screwy 4 hour sales, Ballew Tool,
Coastal, Tools Plus, Lee Valley, Highland Hardware, Museum of
Woodworking, BC Saw, etc... seem to me to be better places to buy
anyway.

By "neighbor", I meant American, Canadian, or other free living
citizen, that lives in a non-market dumping, free country. For
example, bicycle parts plants. The atmosphere there is similar to Lie
Nielsen. People who take pride in what they do, and make a product
that is top quality. I don't think a Chinese factory is quite the
same.

Although, I do avoid BORGs and chain restaurants as well as I can.
<G>

Barry

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:40:47 -0600, "Greg O" <[email protected]>
wrote:


>If resale value is a concern, my bet is Jet, Delta, or Powermatic will
>resell at a better price than Grizzly.

For the most part, I agree with you. However, notice that some
Grizzly tools sell for more than the comparable popular brand. The
following examples use Amazon's free shipping vs. Grizzly's published
shipping charges.

Exhibit A: Grizzly makes an 8" jointer that is comparable to Delta's
8" "Professional" jointer, with the Grizz selling for a bit less.

Exhibit B: The Grizzly 8" jointer that has parallelogram tables, and
is actually comparable to a DJ-20 sells for MORE than the X-5 DJ-20.

Once you get into Grizzly's "Industrial" line, you're in a completely
different realm, and I don't think resale value would suffer. Grizz's
"Woodshop News" ads usually show these tools. For 10" tablesaws,
smaller band saws, etc... I think Grizzly does not carry the same
resale percentage as the old line brands, regardless of what anyone
here thinks of quality.

Our local ad rag, which covers Southeastern NY, Long Island, CT, MA,
and RI, (East Westchester County to you, Charlie <G>) had an 8 month
old 3HP 1023 SL, with a _sliding table_ for $600 listed for months.
$700 Unisaws and JTAS-10s, without accessories, get sold in hours in
this paper. I sold my 6 year old Jet contractor's saw there for
almost $400! This newspaper and it's web counterpart cover an area of
12-15 million people, and an awful lot of wooddorkers.

This very well may be a local thing, as this is area was the home of
Woodworker's Warehouse. A few years back, WW had a house brand known
as Reliant. Reliant went belly up, and left some folks without spare
parts. I'm sure Grizzly is in a much better place than Reliant, but
to those outside the 'wreck, Grizz is still an "off" brand.

Check out the only Grizzly tool currently listed from:
<http://www.bargainnews.com/BNO/CatResult.cfm?RequestTimeout=5000&make=Tools>

"JOINTER,
6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
0-90 deg, good cond, $125. (203) 254-0164 . Fairfield "

$125? <G>

Here's the rest of the jointers:
" JOINTER,
4", Craftsman, table top model, $60. (860) 557-1638. East Hartford

JOINTER,
6'', Delta, w/steel stand, $200, Walker Turner, 6'' jointer, on cast
iron stand, $285, 8'' Craftsman planer/molder thickness planer w/power
feed & steel stand, $225. (203) 938-9502 . Redding

JOINTER,
6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
0-90 deg, good cond, $125. (203) 254-0164 . Fairfield

JOINTER,
4", Craftsman, with belt driven motor, table. (203) 931-1711 Lou.
West Haven

JOINTER/PLANER,
4'', $100. (860) 349-9207. Durham

WOOD JOINTER,
Rockwell, 6"x42", cast iron, w/cast iron stand, 220 volts, single
phase, excellent condition & blades, $400. (516) 795-7151 . Massapequa
"

Barry

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 20:54:57 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:
>
>[snip of wisdom]
>
>> Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are doing
>> better than the one trying to build bookcases.
>>
>> No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
>> perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
>> all.
>
>Amen!
>
>- Doug

By and large I think you're right.

One of the great lies we tell our kids is that they can train for a
job and expect to that job until they retire. With very few exceptions
that isn't true any more. The average worker will have 2 or 3 or more
'careers' over the course of their working life.

Sometimes the jobs change names and sometimes they don't, but you end
up doing something very different over time.

The smart way to handle this, I think, is to decide what you're truly
excellent at -- not just what you're skilled at, but what truly turns
you on. That gives you a basic skill set and you have to keep looking
for ways to apply that skill set and that level of excellence. I
guarantee you it will keep you interested and it's more than likely to
keep you fully employed.

I was thinking about this tonight as I was making out invoices for
customers. Back in mumblety-mupfh I graduated with a degree in
journalism and a minor in advertising. I haven't worked for a
newspaper or wire service in 25 years and I never worked in
advertising. Today most of my customers are web sites. But I'm still
working and, by and large, I'm still enjoying it.

And oh yeah -- there are still a lot of gainfully employed blacksmiths
out there.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

I agree.
While Amazon has some amazing deals, I feel it is only because they still
have some competition. Their free shipping and discount pricing is very
attractive, but what happens when all of the little guys are driven out of
business?
I used to subscribe to Fine Woodworking and a couple of the other WW mags.
There used to be full page ads for tools from at least a dozen sellers. I
picked up a copy recently and there were no such ads.
Amazon either killed or bought the competition.
We are circling the drain as a country that used to lead the world in
competition, quality and innovation.
max

> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:41:30 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> And just how will all these laid off folks be able to support $13/lb steak
>> prices? And do you REALLY believe that China produces the same quality goods
>> as Europe and the US have for decades? And has "reality TV" already replaced
>> "religion" as the "opium of the people", as you watched?
>
> A while back, I heard a radio report where the report questioned
> employees of a Carolina textile plant buying Chinese made clothing in
> the hometown Wal-Mart. Apparently, "Buy American" means you should
> buy MY stuff, while I'll buy the cheapest crap I can, and not talk
> about YOUR job going away. But when MY job goes to China, I'll cry
> on the TV news that Wal-Mart ran my factory out of bidnet.
>
> Support your neighbor for real, or sooner or later, the hypocrisy is
> going to drag us all down a hole.
>
> Barry

When we opened our shop in SF we made $20 the first month. The second month
we made $120 thanks to our landlord. The second year we pulled in over
$150K. No advertising, no down time, 4 month backlog. You get connected with
the group (economic level?) you are aiming for. We wanted high end stuff and
that is all we did. Our names were passed around and we had more work than
we could handle.
max

> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:
>
> [snip of wisdom]
>
>> Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are
>> doing
>> better than the one trying to build bookcases.
>>
>> No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
>> perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
>> all.
>
> Amen!
>
> - Doug

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message

> We are a small company. When we open for business on Monday, material cost
> aside, our cost of operation will be $225,000 more than last year to make
> the same amount of product. .

The overriding question I keep asking myself the past few years:

Are things really getting worse, or is it just this old fart stage of life?

Despite the fact that here in Houston it cost me approximately 52% more in
material costs to "dry in" the same size house in 2004 than it did in 2002,
there is NO inflation, doncha know.

And the collective "tax spenders" love it ... it cost's more to build a
house, therefore the house costs more, therefore it can be appraised at a
higher valuation by an authority cleverly NOT beholden to the voter/tax
payer, thereby increasing the tax "ba$e" for perks, boondoggles and self
perpetuation of the "tax spenders" of a all stripes.

Example abound of just how collectively stupid/naive the populace, and how
twisted the economic thinking, have become:

A couple of months back there was an article in the local paper with the
headlines" "Windfall for Tax Payers".

The gist of the article was that due to higher real estate property
valuations in our 'city of homes', there was going to be vastly more money
in the city coffers in 2005.

Think about that for a few seconds (or minutes if you suffer from a
state-of-the-art education).

Shirley, I am thinking, this is a tongue-in-cheek joke and the punch line is
soon to follow, right? I mean, "Windfall for Taxpayers"??

Hell NO ... "they" (the author, and interviewed bureaucrats) were serious
and presented the article with a straight face, apparently blissfully
unaware of just where/who the hell that "windfall" revenue was coming!

And, although it was not apparent for a while, it is getting difficult to
NOT notice that where prices have actually been maintained, quality has
declined substantially.

We are apparently thought too stupid to notice that maintaining low
inflation, as an economic index, ultimately equals lower quality goods?

Again, examples abound: The t-shirts at Sam's are the same $5 price they
were in 2002, but instead of the generous use of "heavyweight cotton" of two
years ago, the material is thin and decidedly less generous for the same
sized product. (Anyone remember the "victory cigarettes" in G. Orwell's
"1984", or is that tome too possibly damaging to self-esteem for current
educational purposes?)

And just how will all these laid off folks be able to support $13/lb steak
prices? And do you REALLY believe that China produces the same quality goods
as Europe and the US have for decades? And has "reality TV" already replaced
"religion" as the "opium of the people", as you watched?

But I digress ... back to the original question?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

The dollar's only a part of it. Steel prices, even scrap, are at record
levels. The price change was known, thanks to some good folks in this
forum. It pushed me into a purchase before years end.

Dave


"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:tvFBd.6886$wu4.4275@attbi_s52...
> Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
> will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
> foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
> are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
> strictly American unless, they out source to China.
>
>

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:18:49 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Ok, Reagan had huge deficits. Do you think it only cost a dollar and
ninety
> >five cents to win the Cold War? Wasn't the deficit worth it? Years ago
my
> >wife and I took a tour with a group to Russia. I asked the tour guide
that
> >all we ever saw about Russia on TV was their military might. How come we
> >don't see it any more? The tour guides response to me was, "your
President
> >Reagan broke us". Now Greg tell me if the deficit was worth it.
> >You are obviously a liberal democrat and nothing Bush or the Republicans
do,
> >will you EVER agree with. I used to be a democrat when they were for the
> >working man. Like in the days of Truman, Roosevelt, and JFK. Now look
at
> >who the leaders of my old party are.
>
> We didn't win the Cold War, we just had a bigger credit line than they
> did and outspent them. Now, we have to figure out how to pay back all
> the money Reagan flushed in his insane effort to show up the Russians.
> I knew Reagan was sending us into disaster and I've been a
> conservative Republican my entire life. Hell, I VOTED for Reagan and
> now think he turned out to be one of the worst presidents we've ever
> had.
>
> And news flash, neither party represents the working man. They
> haven't for decades now.

They don't because the American people no longer hold them accountable.

--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

"loutent" wrote in message

> If you want a real answer as to whether things are as bad
> as you think they are, ask some 20 or 30 somethings who
> are doing ok, just buying a house, starting a family etc.
> Usually they are very optimistic about things.

Discounting the fact that "20 or 30 somethings " aren't old enough to have
any "perspective" on how much these things have changed, can you be certain
that the only reason they are "optimistic about things" is that they are
anticipating more SEX?

... work(s)(ed) for me. ;>)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:tvFBd.6886$wu4.4275@attbi_s52...
> Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
> will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
> foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
> are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
> strictly American unless, they out source to China.

I'm sure they thought long and hard about it. Increases in shipping costs,
steel, plastics, have all gone up considerably. In my business, we are
paying 40% more for raw material in December than we did in May. We raised
prices to cover it but some customer refused to pay any increase. We said
goodbye; we don't work for free or at a loss. These customers went to one
of our competitors that did not raise prices figuring to cash in and get
market share. . That company no longer exists as of early December.

We are a small company. When we open for business on Monday, material cost
aside, our cost of operation will be $225,000 more than last year to make
the same amount of product. Fuel, insurance, rent. (no wage increases
included) Grizzly is probably faced with a similar situation so no, they
are not shooting themselves in the foot; they are planning to survive. They
must make money or die. Delta and Jet will probably be doing the same.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian Henderson <[email protected]> writes:
>>On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up
>>>again
>>>will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
>>>foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
>>>are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
>>>strictly American unless, they out source to China.
>>
>>Because *ALL* prices are going up across the board. We've been
>>talking about this for months now, woodworking tools are going up in
>>price because they've been artificially low for years now. It won't
>>be just Grizzly, it'll be every brand taking a 10-20% increase over
>>the next couple months.
>
> Indeed. The prices of commodity like lead, copper and iron have
> increased by 30-40% over the past year. Add in 50% increase in
> energy costs and it's no wonder prices have been increasing at a
> rate greater than inflation. Caterpillar has increased prices
> by 3% twice in the last 9 months to accomodate rising commodity
> prices.
>

As I recall, Cat also reported that their costs for plate steel went up 105%
in the past year!

John

"max" wrote in message

> We are circling the drain ....

LOL ... I like the "poetic justice" nature of that imagery!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
> Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
> "housing costs," not the cost of housing.
>
> A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
> individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....
>
> "igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
> > Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please
> kill
> > some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
> > before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

You sound just like a jackass who slobbers in the public trough for his
daily bread, or is paid by a company or entity that does.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 21:17:26 -0600, Phil <[email protected]> wrote:

If I could act as well as Benny Hinn, I'll be a minister. I'm on the road to
riches.

>I wouldn't disagree with that at all. I rarely watch it, but the point is
>still valid.
>
>Markets change, jobs and skills change, not much doesn't. I was sitting trying
>to think of something that probably didn't change a lot, came up with bartender
>and minister, but even they have different skills they utilize than the did 30
>years ago. Bur if I were a bartender I'd be studying for a different job. One
>of these days, a robot that is either a babe or a hunk, and can mix and pour
>straight from their finger is gonna take that job over.... :-) But, that
>minister job is rock solid, we humans got sin in our jeans......... :-)
>
>"Bullwinkle J. Moose" wrote:
>
>> OCC=Soap Opera
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:35:59 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > >"Phil" wrote in message
>> > >
>> > >> If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the
>> "Orange
>> > >County
>> > >> Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom
>> one
>> > >of a
>> > >> kind machines, and business is good.
>> > >
>> > >Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
>> > >niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by
>> the
>> > >entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly
>> not a
>> > >market that you can build a national economy upon.
>> > >
>> > >Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
>> > >like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or
>> until
>> > >the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of
>> entertainment..
>> > >
>> > > ... sound vaguely familiar?
>> >
>> > When that happens you change your niche.
>> > If you're fixiated on the idea that a market will continue to exist
>> > for a long time you're setting yourself up for trouble in the modern
>> > world.
>> >
>> > So no, I don't think that in 20 years "Orange County Choppers" or
>> > whatever will still be building the products they are today. I
>> > couldn't tell you what products they will be building. But if they're
>> > smart they'll still be occupying a very profitable niche somewhere.
>> >
>> > --RC
>> >
>> > "Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
>> > 'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
>> > fly with a club.
>> > -- John W. Cambell Jr.

In article <p0lCd.20055$wu4.12963@attbi_s52>, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>Are you talking about WW2? I don't recall that many lives lost in the Cold
>War. I served 8 years during the cold war and accidents excluded I do not
>recall any casualties. I don't think you know what ur talking about.
>And that's the facts Jack
<...snipped...>

Uh, seems to me that Korea and Viet Nam, to mention the bigger
conflicts, were fought during and as a result of cold war policies...


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

Ok, Reagan had huge deficits. Do you think it only cost a dollar and ninety
five cents to win the Cold War? Wasn't the deficit worth it? Years ago my
wife and I took a tour with a group to Russia. I asked the tour guide that
all we ever saw about Russia on TV was their military might. How come we
don't see it any more? The tour guides response to me was, "your President
Reagan broke us". Now Greg tell me if the deficit was worth it.
You are obviously a liberal democrat and nothing Bush or the Republicans do,
will you EVER agree with. I used to be a democrat when they were for the
working man. Like in the days of Truman, Roosevelt, and JFK. Now look at
who the leaders of my old party are.


"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:20:32 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. JFK, Reagan, or GW
> >doesn't think so either. As the economy grows, so will the revenue taken
in
> >by the government.
>
> Reagan lowered taxes for high-income people but he raised
> taxes on everyone else a number of times throughout his tenure.
> In spite of that, he and the Dem-controlled congress still managed
> to produce huge deficits (they seemed huge then, but GB II's
> make them seem small by comparison).

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
>will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
>foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
>are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
>strictly American unless, they out source to China.

Because *ALL* prices are going up across the board. We've been
talking about this for months now, woodworking tools are going up in
price because they've been artificially low for years now. It won't
be just Grizzly, it'll be every brand taking a 10-20% increase over
the next couple months.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:55:34 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"George" <george@least> wrote in message
>> Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
>> "housing costs," not the cost of housing.
>>
>> A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
>> individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....
>>
>> "igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
>> > Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please
>> kill
>> > some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
>> > before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor
>
>You sound just like a jackass who slobbers in the public trough for his
>daily bread, or is paid by a company or entity that does.

I'm thinking George's post was made with significant tongue-in-cheek
sarcasm. At least based upon some of his past postings.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 20:54:57 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:

>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:
>
>[snip of wisdom]
>
>> Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are doing
>> better than the one trying to build bookcases.
>>
>> No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
>> perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
>> all.
>
>Amen!

Our very own Tom Plamann, Phully Laird, Sigh Kaplan, Kim Whitmyre, and
Tawm Watson are all pretty good proof of that premise, wot?


-----------------------------------------------------------------
When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:21:08 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>We actually have local dealers here in East Westchester County who
>sell Uni's in the $1650 range. The smaller, local guys, will match
>Tool Crib, as did Wooddorker's Warehouse. Only Woodcraft dosen't do
>local to web price matching.


I'll have to take a ride over the next time I "go home"
(Dobbs Ferry). I looked up woodworking places in
the phone book last timeI was there, but didn't have
the time to visit any of them.

But back to the subject, that still makes the Unisaw the
only one of the 3 selling for less than half of list price.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 00:52:45 GMT, "patrick conroy"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The explanation is steel prices and a few other reasons. Griz and others
>have been saying they'll be raising prices. At least they were up front
>about it and gave us plenty of time to buy at the lower costs.

Grizzly also seems to be getting more popular. Most businesses will
attempt to price to what the market will bear.

Barry

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 11:37:40 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>These are listings, not actual sale prices. The Unisaws sell in
>hours, maybe the owners should ask more.

It sounds like it, especially in the NYC area.

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
>will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
>foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
>are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
>strictly American unless, they out source to China.
>

Our dollar is losing value. Our government is spending a million
dollars every 7-1/2 minutes for some kind of a war. Eventually they
will print more money in attempt to get out of debt. Recently I
traded a hand saw made in China for one made in the USA of equal
dollar, but the USA saw is much better.

OCC=Soap Opera

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:35:59 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Phil" wrote in message
> >
> >> If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the
"Orange
> >County
> >> Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom
one
> >of a
> >> kind machines, and business is good.
> >
> >Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
> >niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by
the
> >entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly
not a
> >market that you can build a national economy upon.
> >
> >Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
> >like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or
until
> >the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of
entertainment..
> >
> > ... sound vaguely familiar?
>
> When that happens you change your niche.
> If you're fixiated on the idea that a market will continue to exist
> for a long time you're setting yourself up for trouble in the modern
> world.
>
> So no, I don't think that in 20 years "Orange County Choppers" or
> whatever will still be building the products they are today. I
> couldn't tell you what products they will be building. But if they're
> smart they'll still be occupying a very profitable niche somewhere.
>
> --RC
>
> "Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
> 'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
> fly with a club.
> -- John W. Cambell Jr.

"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> As I recall, Cat also reported that their costs for plate steel went up
> 105%
>> in the past year!
>
> Amazing, isn't it? First we get anti-dumping trade restrictions reversed
> by
> the WTO and then the price skyrockets. If we could build a steel mill
> anywhere, now'd be the time.

It seems that the economic downturn lasted so long that many companies
closed mills. Now that the demand is way up internationally there is not
enough capacity to meet the demand. Add in the Chinese buying up all the
scrap they can get their hands on and the prices have gone WAY up... Also
add in the fact that the opportunity costs of opening a new mill are huge,
and the time to get one on line long, it's pretty hard for the industry to
respond to the high demand quickly... and with the investor's luck it's
arrival on the scene would probably correspond with a new downturn!

John
Glad I bought all my big iron in the past... except a big lathe that is. ;-)

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:24:58 -0500, GregP <[email protected]>
wrote:


> The 1023 SL with sliding table is(was) in the range $1100,
> the Unisaw in the range of $1800, and the JTAS-10s in
> the range of $1400. Based on these numbers, it appears to
> me that the best buy percentage-wise is the Unisaw and
> the worst is the Grizzly.


We actually have local dealers here in East Westchester County who
sell Uni's in the $1650 range. The smaller, local guys, will match
Tool Crib, as did Wooddorker's Warehouse. Only Woodcraft dosen't do
local to web price matching.

Barry

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:35:59 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Phil" wrote in message
>
>> If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the "Orange
>County
>> Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom one
>of a
>> kind machines, and business is good.
>
>Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
>niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by the
>entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly not a
>market that you can build a national economy upon.
>
>Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
>like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or until
>the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of entertainment..
>
> ... sound vaguely familiar?

When that happens you change your niche.
If you're fixiated on the idea that a market will continue to exist
for a long time you're setting yourself up for trouble in the modern
world.

So no, I don't think that in 20 years "Orange County Choppers" or
whatever will still be building the products they are today. I
couldn't tell you what products they will be building. But if they're
smart they'll still be occupying a very profitable niche somewhere.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"Bob" <[email protected]> writes:

> Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
> will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
> foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
> are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
> strictly American unless, they out source to China.

Yeah, except some of the Delta stuff I have seen lately has made it
a tough decision. I have lost all hope of classic American quality
being what it once was. It seems like there has been some kind of
shift in the last couple of decades - big corporations seem to
have short-term profit in mind rather than long-term customer loyalty.

A friend of mine asked me a while back "why is everything turning
to crap?"

A good question. I never thought I would see the day when I *had*
to buy a $250 mixer for my wife - just to keep from buying a $20
mixer every 6 months.

I think I am turning into a geezer...

~Pike~

No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. JFK, Reagan, or GW
doesn't think so either. As the economy grows, so will the revenue taken in
by the government.


"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:19:14 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
> >
> >Of course then there's the AlGore modification,where government money
should
> >go to "the right people...."
> >
>
> ... and then there's the GB II modification, where the prez
> spends huge amounts of money but does not have the
> morals or courage to collect enough taxes to pay for it
> (come to think of it, that Ronnie Reagan did the same
> thing).
>
>
>

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:09:54 -0600, "Greg O" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>> "JOINTER,
>> 6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
>>
>> $125? <G>
>
>I wonder how long it takes to sell it! If I had seen it in my area for that
>price I would have grabbed it without even argueing the price.

You know what's really funny?

That jointer is located in the land of the $4-500,000 starter home
with $100,000 of cars in the driveway, Fairfield County, CT. So was
the $600 8 month old 1023SL w/ sliding table.

If you drew a "C" on a map from Bridgeport, CT, down I-95 to NYC,
arcing back out onto Long Island, the "C" could stand for ca$h. I
know cabinetmakers who routinely drive 2-3 hours one way, because
there are plenty of ultra high-end jobs inside that same "C".

Barry

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:40:21 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:


>A dollar spent by government benefits everyone.

Even the dollars spent by our ex-Governor who took kickbacks to vastly
overpay for construction projects?

Barry

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:44:47 -0600, Joe Wells <[email protected]> wrote:

>> They sell us trash and be sell them back trash, that's fair? Or, trash in
>> trash out? :-)
>
>Sounds like eBay writ large...

Wanna see more trash? This may be the beginning of the end of Detroit.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:40:21 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:

>Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
>"housing costs," not the cost of housing.
>
>A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
>individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....

George, as an economist, you are probably an excellent woodworker.

The thing that _really_ scares me is that you are among the tiny
minority of voters who even give a damn about economics. Kinda like
realizing that the people who devour supermarket tabloids are among
the minority of Americans who actually read.

--RC



"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

Are you talking about WW2? I don't recall that many lives lost in the Cold
War. I served 8 years during the cold war and accidents excluded I do not
recall any casualties. I don't think you know what ur talking about.
And that's the facts Jack

"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:18:49 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Ok, Reagan had huge deficits. Do you think it only cost a dollar and
ninety
> >five cents to win the Cold War? Wasn't the deficit worth it?
>
>
> It cost a huge chunk of our wealth and apx 90,000 US servicemens'
> lives (and that's not counting the wounded) over a period of 40-odd
> years to "win" the Cold War. Do you truly believe that RR was
> "responsible ?" Or did he accelerate it by a few years ?

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:00:05 -0600, WD wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:23:34 -0800, Larry Jaques
> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
> They sell us trash and be sell them back trash, that's fair? Or, trash in
> trash out? :-)

Sounds like eBay writ large...

--
Joe Wells

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:

[snip of wisdom]

> Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are doing
> better than the one trying to build bookcases.
>
> No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
> perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
> all.

Amen!

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:tvFBd.6886$wu4.4275@attbi_s52...
>
>
> Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again

The explanation is steel prices and a few other reasons. Griz and others
have been saying they'll be raising prices. At least they were up front
about it and gave us plenty of time to buy at the lower costs.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:41:30 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:


>And just how will all these laid off folks be able to support $13/lb steak
>prices? And do you REALLY believe that China produces the same quality goods
>as Europe and the US have for decades? And has "reality TV" already replaced
>"religion" as the "opium of the people", as you watched?

A while back, I heard a radio report where the report questioned
employees of a Carolina textile plant buying Chinese made clothing in
the hometown Wal-Mart. Apparently, "Buy American" means you should
buy MY stuff, while I'll buy the cheapest crap I can, and not talk
about YOUR job going away. But when MY job goes to China, I'll cry
on the TV news that Wal-Mart ran my factory out of bidnet.

Support your neighbor for real, or sooner or later, the hypocrisy is
going to drag us all down a hole.

Barry

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:23:34 -0800, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:

They sell us trash and be sell them back trash,
that's fair? Or, trash in trash out? :-)

Happy New Year everyone, it's not the end of the world trading trashes.

>
>The price of scrap steel has doubled recently. Watch for prices to go
>up on other things, too. The Chinese are buying every piece of scrap
>they can get their hands on, hence the scarcity, though it usually
>ends up back here anyway.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:31:48 -0600, WD <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Wanna see more trash? This may be the beginning of the end of Detroit.
>
>http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm


The beginning of the end of Detroit came about 20
years ago.

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:26:52 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Our local ad rag, which covers Southeastern NY, Long Island, CT, MA,
>and RI, (East Westchester County to you, Charlie <G>) had an 8 month
>old 3HP 1023 SL, with a _sliding table_ for $600 listed for months.
>$700 Unisaws and JTAS-10s, without accessories, get sold in hours in
>this paper. I sold my 6 year old Jet contractor's saw there for
>almost $400! This newspaper and it's web counterpart cover an area of
>12-15 million people, and an awful lot of wooddorkers.

The 1023 SL with sliding table is(was) in the range $1100,
the Unisaw in the range of $1800, and the JTAS-10s in
the range of $1400. Based on these numbers, it appears to
me that the best buy percentage-wise is the Unisaw and
the worst is the Grizzly.

"Phil" wrote in message

> If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the "Orange
County
> Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom one
of a
> kind machines, and business is good.

Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by the
entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly not a
market that you can build a national economy upon.

Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or until
the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of entertainment..

... sound vaguely familiar?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> calmly
ranted:

>Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
>will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
>foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
>are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
>strictly American unless, they out source to China.

The price of scrap steel has doubled recently. Watch for prices to go
up on other things, too. The Chinese are buying every piece of scrap
they can get their hands on, hence the scarcity, though it usually
ends up back here anyway.

--
Save the Endangered ROAD NARROWS! -|- www.diversify.com
Ban SUVs today! -|- Full Service Websites

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:20:32 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. JFK, Reagan, or GW
>doesn't think so either. As the economy grows, so will the revenue taken in
>by the government.

Reagan lowered taxes for high-income people but he raised
taxes on everyone else a number of times throughout his tenure.
In spite of that, he and the Dem-controlled congress still managed
to produce huge deficits (they seemed huge then, but GB II's
make them seem small by comparison).

> I bought a Grizzly 1442 about 14 months ago for $799.


Pardon-Should have said Jet 1442

The dollar is probably making it worse, but the raise in the cost of steel,
earlier this year, was what caused the initial problem. They published a
warning during early to mid summer that prices would raise at years end.
You have to give them credit for providing ample warning. My son is a heavy
construction manager and the rise in steel prices was driving their
estimators nuts during the first two quarters of the year.

As far hurting them - I doubt it. The others are going up too and the
margin will probably stay the same. I bought a Grizzly 1442 about 14 months
ago for $799. I saw it in the same store, during a show/sale, in October
and it was $915. The Jet rep blamed it on steel.

Steel, dollar probably doesn't matter they still have to make a profit and I
credit Griz with issuing the warning.

Brian Henderson <[email protected]> writes:
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
>>will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
>>foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
>>are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
>>strictly American unless, they out source to China.
>
>Because *ALL* prices are going up across the board. We've been
>talking about this for months now, woodworking tools are going up in
>price because they've been artificially low for years now. It won't
>be just Grizzly, it'll be every brand taking a 10-20% increase over
>the next couple months.

Indeed. The prices of commodity like lead, copper and iron have
increased by 30-40% over the past year. Add in 50% increase in
energy costs and it's no wonder prices have been increasing at a
rate greater than inflation. Caterpillar has increased prices
by 3% twice in the last 9 months to accomodate rising commodity
prices.