I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
to miter such corners, rather than coping?
Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
construction and trim carpentry.
Kelly
I did my kids room a couple of years ago and it has a moulding around the
base, a chair rail, then a moulding around the top (not crown ). There were
17 "inside" joints in that one room. I coped them all and got to where I
could to one in about 5 minutes per. It seems harder at first, but whenever
I do miters, I always end up sneaking up on them which takes for ever. I
still can't simply measure a miter cut and cut it dead on. I have to cut it
a hair long, then sneak up on it.
It's always been my understanding that the main advantages to coping over
miters are:
1. The work for corners that are not exactly at 90 degrees.
2. The joint doesn't spread apart when you nail it to the wall. I still
don't know how you'd miter an inside corner and nail it without it spreading
apart.
As far as the expansion/contraction issues to humidity, I'm not
understanding now one would be better than the other. The wood will expand
the same either way. No?
Mike Dembroge
"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> construction and trim carpentry.
>
> Kelly
bull pucky!!!
Robert Allison wrote:
> Kelly E Jones wrote:
>
>>I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
>>job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
>>mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>>
>>Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
>>to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>>
>>Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
>>wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
>>right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
>>construction and trim carpentry.
>>
>>Kelly
>
>
> Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
> cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
> coped joint, if they are done correctly.
>
>
Kelly E Jones wrote:
>
> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> construction and trim carpentry.
>
> Kelly
Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
coped joint, if they are done correctly.
--
Robert Allison
Georgetown, TX
>Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
>cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
>coped joint, if they are done correctly.
>
At least not right away, even WITH spot-on miters. Wait until the seasons
change!
Michael Helms
Mountaineer Millworks
Weddington, NC
remove "nogoons" from email for replies
Morgans wrote:
>
> "Jeff Cochran" <[email protected]> wrote in message > Coping takes time.
> Unless a workman is getting paid for the time,
> > he's not going to take it.
> >
> > Jeff
>
> He wouldn't be working for me, and I would not take a job that demanded such
> shortcuts.
>
> I teach carpentry. Guess what my students learn.
> --
> Jim in NC
Only one way of doing things? I also taught trim carpentry and I
taught both ways, because their are situations for both. How did
they cope outside corners?
Perhaps if you don't know what you are doing, a mitered joint may
look bad after a while, but I have mitered joints in my parents home
that I did back in 1968 and they still look fine. And thats in a
house with no air conditioning in Brownsville, Texas. Try finding a
place with greater humidity changes than that.
I almost always cope corners, because I do mostly stain grade work,
and to me, coping is as easy if not easier than mitering. It just
takes an extra step. But please don't try to instruct me that there
is only one way to do something,...your way. I have been in this
business too long to believe that.
A good carpenter can make either joint look and last just as long
and as good. I know this from experience. The problem is, there
aren't that many good carpenters anymore, if there ever were that
many.
--
Robert Allison
Georgetown, TX
Coping baseboard is way easy. Even one piece is fine.
bentcajungirl wrote:
> I coped all my joints in my house. There is no argument in my book good
> enough for not coping. It's pretty quick, the result is way better than
> mitering. On my trim, there was a tricky round part, I coped the straight
> aways and basically trimmed the round part with the coping saw, then with a
> big round bit on the Dremel tool, cleaned out the round part. I'd say it
> took about a minute per joint.
> Perry
> "andy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > My neighbor wanted to borrow my miter saw to re-trim several rooms in his
> > house. I loaned him that saw and a coping saw and taught him how to cope
> the
> > joints. He practiced in my garage/shop till he was comfortable with the
> > technique. He then proceded to do the entire job with carefully coped
> joints
> > and it looks great. He did a quality job and he is very proud of the
> result.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> > > job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> > > mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
> > >
> > > Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> > > to miter such corners, rather than coping?
> > >
> > > Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> > > wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> > > right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> > > construction and trim carpentry.
> > >
> > > Kelly
> >
> >
My neighbor wanted to borrow my miter saw to re-trim several rooms in his
house. I loaned him that saw and a coping saw and taught him how to cope the
joints. He practiced in my garage/shop till he was comfortable with the
technique. He then proceded to do the entire job with carefully coped joints
and it looks great. He did a quality job and he is very proud of the result.
"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> construction and trim carpentry.
>
> Kelly
until the mitered joint separates due to changes in humidity
--
There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
"Robert Allison" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kelly E Jones wrote:
> >
> > I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> > job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> > mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
> >
> > Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> > to miter such corners, rather than coping?
> >
> > Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> > wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> > right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> > construction and trim carpentry.
> >
> > Kelly
>
> Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
> cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
> coped joint, if they are done correctly.
>
>
> --
> Robert Allison
> Georgetown, TX
In article <[email protected]>, "WIlliam Morris" <[email protected]> wrote:
>So, on the subject of coping...I tried it for the first time in redoing the
>family room last winter, and really liked the result. The method I used was
>to cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, then cut along the profile created
>with a coping saw. Where I didn't slip with the saw, the results were very
>nice. Is there a better method, or is that the way it's done?
Nope, that's the way it's done. Congrats on your success. It really does
produce better-looking results than a miter, doesn't it?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:40:54 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
(Kelly E Jones) wrote:
>
>I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
>job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
>mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
>Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
>to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
>Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
>wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
>right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
>construction and trim carpentry.
>
>Kelly
Mitering rather than coping the baseboard is a cheap way of going
about things but might not be considered "wrong".
If the guy was hired as the low bidder and there's no specs written
into the contract you may not have much of an argument. You would
have a right to complain about the quality of the mitered joints.
A first rate coping job takes a little bit of thought. I usually run
my squared end pieces on the most viewed wall of the room and then run
the coped pieces onto these. This way, if the wood contracts too
much, the crack line will not be as obvious to those using the room.
I also usually run a three piece base. The baseboard is most often a
one by six and this gets butted. The cap can be one of several kinds
of profile and it is coped. The cap can follow the dips and dives of
the wall better than a solid base can. The bottom is usually a shoe
or quarter round molding and this is also coped. The baseboard should
be back primed and should be applied 'belly out', so that the top and
bottom edge of the baseboard contacts the wall solidly.
Another thing to consider in running baseboard is the kind of nailing
that you have. I always check the stud layout and make sure that I
have good nailing. Too many guys use the air nailer and simply oppose
the angles of the nails - but too many of the nails are in the wall
covering rather than the studs. The baseboard should be nailed
through the top edge, so that the cap will cover the nails. It should
be nailed at the bottom so that the shoe or quarter round will cover
the nail but the nails should not be on the same stud, in order to
reduce the possibility of cracking the baseboard during dry spells.
The shoe or quarter round should be nailed to the floor so that the
baseboard can expand and contract behind it without cracking.
However, if you have a hardwood floor, you must angle the nail so that
it does not penetrate the flooring.
Also, the inside corners often have to be scraped out in order for the
baseboard to get tight into the corner. Drywall guys often leave the
inside corners with too much mud in them and, if the situation is not
corrected, there will be gaps that allow for more wood movement than
the joint can tolerate.
The outside corners may have to be tuned up as well. Less skilled
drywall finishers will leave a hollowed area from the point of the
metal corner to the un-mudded field of the wall. This will create a
gap.
On runs greater than the length of the molding available (usually over
sixteen feet) the joints should be mitered, glued and pinned. The
outside miters should be glued and pinned. If the guy tells you that
end grain gluing doesn't hold up, go on to the next guy. The glue is
used to slow down the absorbtion of moisture into the endgrain. The
inside joints have glue applied to the end grain for the same reason.
If the trim is pre-finished, you might want to ask how many different
colors of putty will be used to fill the nail holes. If the guy looks
at you funny, or says "one", go on to the next guy. I use a minimum
of three putty colors on a clear finished job.
You can see that a mechanic who takes all of this into consideration
is going to take a lot longer to do the job than a run and gun sort of
guy. That translates into more money.
On those rare occasions that I am called out on a competitive bid, I
show the customer my specs and ask that everybody else bid to those
specs. That sometimes chases off the lowballers.
Regards, Tom
Tom Watson - Woodworker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
"WIlliam Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, on the subject of coping...I tried it for the first time in
redoing the
> family room last winter, and really liked the result. The method I
used was
> to cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, then cut along the profile
created
> with a coping saw. Where I didn't slip with the saw, the results were
very
> nice. Is there a better method, or is that the way it's done?
>
> - Wm, dedicated amateur
>
>
> --
> William Morris, Tailor
> Seamlyne Reproductions
> http://www.seamlyne.com
That's the way it's done but there are tricks to make it easier. If the
piece is short you can cut the straight part on the tablesaw (just set
it for a slight bevel). Then stop the cut and continue the curved parts
with a coping saw. If the piece is long, it helps if you have a RAS.
You can also use a saber saw with a thin blade set for a slight bevel.
(the reason for making the 45 degree cut first is to give you a profile
to follow)
My 2 cents worth is that I'd be PISSED! A mitered baseboard looks like
hoky. Even with my lack of experience, with about 3 practice pieces, I
was able to turn out acceptable coped joints when I replaced all the
baseboards in my home. It isn't THAT hard to do. Sounds like he is the
laziest of the lazy. However, having said that, I don't know if you
have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did you
have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
dave
Kelly E Jones wrote:
> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> construction and trim carpentry.
>
> Kelly
OK, I'll have to bite. What is coping, other than using a
coping saw, that is? I have mitered many baseboards, and have
had to make fine adjustments after cutting. Is this a way of
making these "adjustments."
WIlliam Morris wrote:
> Yes, I was surprised at what a huge difference it made. Other joints in my
> house (the entry way for example) which were mitered REALLY started showing
> the difference during the drought this summer, when the north end of the
> house settled a measurable 1/4". The coped joints hardly budged.
>
> - Wm
>
>
> --
> William Morris, Tailor
> Seamlyne Reproductions
> http://www.seamlyne.com
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, "WIlliam Morris"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>So, on the subject of coping...I tried it for the first time in redoing
>
> the
>
>>>family room last winter, and really liked the result. The method I used
>
> was
>
>>>to cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, then cut along the profile created
>>>with a coping saw. Where I didn't slip with the saw, the results were
>
> very
>
>>>nice. Is there a better method, or is that the way it's done?
>>
>>Nope, that's the way it's done. Congrats on your success. It really does
>>produce better-looking results than a miter, doesn't it?
>>
>>--
>>Regards,
>> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
>
>
>
"Scott Cramer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 19 Sep 2003, Art Todesco spake unto rec.woodworking:
>
> > OK, I'll have to bite. What is coping, other than using a
> > coping saw, that is? I have mitered many baseboards, and have
> > had to make fine adjustments after cutting. Is this a way of
> > making these "adjustments."
>
> Coping is cutting the profile of a molding onto the abutting piece.
When
> the two pieces are fitted together, it is indistinguishable from a
mitered
> joint. When a mitered joint shrinks with lower humidity, the joint
opens
> up. When a coped joint shrinks, it is much less obvious.
They're also useful because the joint doesn't need to be 90 degrees. If
the angle is acute or obtuse, the joint will still look "closed".
[email protected] (Kelly E Jones) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> However, having said that, I don't know if you
>>have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did
>>you have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
>
> No, Yes, No.
>
> Kelly
>
Kelly,
In the contract, is there a clause to the effect that the work will be
done "in a professional and workman like manner" ?
In the work we've had done around our house (involving different
contractors for plumbing, septic system, well, drain fields ..), that
was standard wordage; we never had to fall back on that, but I would
think that mitered corners would not look "professional".
Of course, IANAL, and all that ....
Regards,
JT
On 19 Sep 2003, Art Todesco spake unto rec.woodworking:
> OK, I'll have to bite. What is coping, other than using a
> coping saw, that is? I have mitered many baseboards, and have
> had to make fine adjustments after cutting. Is this a way of
> making these "adjustments."
Coping is cutting the profile of a molding onto the abutting piece. When
the two pieces are fitted together, it is indistinguishable from a mitered
joint. When a mitered joint shrinks with lower humidity, the joint opens
up. When a coped joint shrinks, it is much less obvious.
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
// massive snip
> On those rare occasions that I am called out on a competitive bid, I
> show the customer my specs and ask that everybody else bid to those
> specs. That sometimes chases off the lowballers.
>
>
> Regards, Tom
> Tom Watson - Woodworker
> Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
>
Tom,
That's one helluva writeup on how to cope joints. I've saved this, as
I'll be attempting to add molding in our (old) house at some point in
the (hopefully sort of)near future.
Your post here is a prime example of how this newsgroup can be (and
often is) one of the best resources on the net for woodworking
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
Regards,
JT
"WIlliam Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kelly:
>
> "IANAL"?
>
> New acronym...share, share? :)
>
> - Wm
>
I Am Not A Lawyer
I coped all my joints in my house. There is no argument in my book good
enough for not coping. It's pretty quick, the result is way better than
mitering. On my trim, there was a tricky round part, I coped the straight
aways and basically trimmed the round part with the coping saw, then with a
big round bit on the Dremel tool, cleaned out the round part. I'd say it
took about a minute per joint.
Perry
"andy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My neighbor wanted to borrow my miter saw to re-trim several rooms in his
> house. I loaned him that saw and a coping saw and taught him how to cope
the
> joints. He practiced in my garage/shop till he was comfortable with the
> technique. He then proceded to do the entire job with carefully coped
joints
> and it looks great. He did a quality job and he is very proud of the
result.
>
>
>
> "Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> > job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> > mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
> >
> > Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> > to miter such corners, rather than coping?
> >
> > Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> > wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> > right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> > construction and trim carpentry.
> >
> > Kelly
>
>
"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> construction and trim carpentry.
>
> Kelly
if it's going to be caulked and painted, then that's probably the standard
now. if it's to be stained (or already is), then i'd have them redo it
again. they may not know how to.
regards,
charlie
cave creek, az
In article <[email protected]>,
Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>My 2 cents worth is that I'd be PISSED! A mitered baseboard looks like
>hoky. Even with my lack of experience, with about 3 practice pieces, I
>was able to turn out acceptable coped joints when I replaced all the
>baseboards in my home. It isn't THAT hard to do. Sounds like he is the
>laziest of the lazy. However, having said that, I don't know if you
>have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did you
>have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
No, Yes, No.
Kelly
In article <[email protected]>,
Charlie Spitzer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
>> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
>> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>>
>> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
>> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>>
>> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
>> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
>> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
>> construction and trim carpentry.
>>
>> Kelly
>
>if it's going to be caulked and painted, then that's probably the standard
>now. if it's to be stained (or already is), then i'd have them redo it
>again. they may not know how to.
Good point. I should have mentioned that this is pre-finished (clear-coated),
hemlock molding. Will not be caulked or painted (though the
contractor will probably try to hide the problem with some colored
putty).
Kelly
In article <[email protected]>,
Robert Allison <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
>cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
>coped joint, if they are done correctly.
You can from above. And if you're suggesting that it makes no
difference which you do (as long as done correctly), that is not
right - a coped joint will look better when the wood moves.
Kelly
So, on the subject of coping...I tried it for the first time in redoing the
family room last winter, and really liked the result. The method I used was
to cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, then cut along the profile created
with a coping saw. Where I didn't slip with the saw, the results were very
nice. Is there a better method, or is that the way it's done?
- Wm, dedicated amateur
--
William Morris, Tailor
Seamlyne Reproductions
http://www.seamlyne.com
"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Robert Allison <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
> >cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
> >coped joint, if they are done correctly.
>
> You can from above. And if you're suggesting that it makes no
> difference which you do (as long as done correctly), that is not
> right - a coped joint will look better when the wood moves.
>
> Kelly
Yes, I was surprised at what a huge difference it made. Other joints in my
house (the entry way for example) which were mitered REALLY started showing
the difference during the drought this summer, when the north end of the
house settled a measurable 1/4". The coped joints hardly budged.
- Wm
--
William Morris, Tailor
Seamlyne Reproductions
http://www.seamlyne.com
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "WIlliam Morris"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >So, on the subject of coping...I tried it for the first time in redoing
the
> >family room last winter, and really liked the result. The method I used
was
> >to cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, then cut along the profile created
> >with a coping saw. Where I didn't slip with the saw, the results were
very
> >nice. Is there a better method, or is that the way it's done?
>
> Nope, that's the way it's done. Congrats on your success. It really does
> produce better-looking results than a miter, doesn't it?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Kelly:
"IANAL"?
New acronym...share, share? :)
- Wm
--
William Morris, Tailor
Seamlyne Reproductions
http://www.seamlyne.com
"John Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Kelly E Jones) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > However, having said that, I don't know if you
> >>have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did
> >>you have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
> >
> > No, Yes, No.
> >
> > Kelly
> >
>
> Kelly,
>
> In the contract, is there a clause to the effect that the work will be
> done "in a professional and workman like manner" ?
>
> In the work we've had done around our house (involving different
> contractors for plumbing, septic system, well, drain fields ..), that
> was standard wordage; we never had to fall back on that, but I would
> think that mitered corners would not look "professional".
>
> Of course, IANAL, and all that ....
>
> Regards,
> JT
Means "I Am Not A Lawyer", so not a "legal" opinion.
"WIlliam Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kelly:
>
> "IANAL"?
>
> New acronym...share, share? :)
>
> - Wm
>
>
> --
> William Morris, Tailor
> Seamlyne Reproductions
> http://www.seamlyne.com
>
>
> "John Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > [email protected] (Kelly E Jones) wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > > However, having said that, I don't know if you
> > >>have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did
> > >>you have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
> > >
> > > No, Yes, No.
> > >
> > > Kelly
> > >
> >
> > Kelly,
> >
> > In the contract, is there a clause to the effect that the work will be
> > done "in a professional and workman like manner" ?
> >
> > In the work we've had done around our house (involving different
> > contractors for plumbing, septic system, well, drain fields ..), that
> > was standard wordage; we never had to fall back on that, but I would
> > think that mitered corners would not look "professional".
> >
> > Of course, IANAL, and all that ....
> >
> > Regards,
> > JT
>
>
I think that detail work is rapidly becoming a lost art.
In my case, I have to go to a psychiatrist to learn to cope. I mean, life is
so rough. (ha-ha)
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.org
.
.
"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
to miter such corners, rather than coping?
Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
construction and trim carpentry.
Kelly
"Mike in Mystic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> until the mitered joint separates due to changes in humidity
>
> --
>
I've seen this happen with coped joints, too. Looks just as bad.
Gary (speed coper <g>)
BeerBoy wrote:
> read that one about the Ryobi portable table saw once in a while for a
> good chuckle.
El Guano... :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17860 Approximate word count: 535800
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:48:29 GMT, Robert Allison
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Kelly E Jones wrote:
>>
>> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
>> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
>> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>>
>> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
>> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>>
>> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
>> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
>> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
>> construction and trim carpentry.
>>
>> Kelly
>
>Well then he did not do a good job of mitering the joints. You
>cannot tell the difference between a good mitered joint and a good
>coped joint, if they are done correctly.
Assuming a true 90 degree corner, and a foam or otherwise stable
material, a mitered joint in baseboard may look fine. Locally,
painted joints are almost always mitered for speed and since they'll
be caulked. That and baseboards don't show as often as crown joints,
especially outside crown joints (my personal problematic joint, always
takes three or four tries...)
I don't completely buy into the wood movement argument as much, I've
seen bad coped joints from separation as often as bad mitered ones
from separation. And I've seen a whole lot of bad coped joints
because somebody got the trim too short during the coping process.
Coping takes time. Unless a workman is getting paid for the time,
he's not going to take it.
Jeff
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:44:19 -0400, "IDontThinkSo" <YouDont@Getit>
wrote:
>
>"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
>> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
>> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>>
>> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
>> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>>
>> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
>> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
>> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
>> construction and trim carpentry.
>>
>> Kelly
>
>
>I'm a Trim carpenter to trade, and as far as I'm concerned all joints (base,
>crown, mouldings etc) should be coped, But having said that sometimes if you
>pay 50c a foot thats what you will get. Not nowing what he is charging
>it's hard to say how he should be doing it. But again if you think the
>joints look crappy, then maybe he's just not good at what he's doing.
That's actually a good point. If mitered joints look crappy then
there's no guarantee the coped ones would be any better. The workman
may just be low quality or inexperienced at trim carpentry.
Jeff
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:57:28 -0400, "Morgans" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Jeff Cochran" <[email protected]> wrote in message > Coping takes time.
>Unless a workman is getting paid for the time,
>> he's not going to take it.
>He wouldn't be working for me, and I would not take a job that demanded such
>shortcuts.
You might not. The realities of construction might make you
ineligible for some jobs.
> I teach carpentry. Guess what my students learn.
Hopefully both coping and mitering.
Keep in mind that a lot depends on the area of the country as well.
Locally, shrinkage is often less of a problem than in northern
climates with a heating season. I'm looking at the original trim
molding in my house right now, all mitered, no cracks, all done in
1954.
Jeff
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 21:28:04 GMT, Jeff Cochran <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:48:29 GMT, Robert Allison
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Kelly E Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home.
<snip to obvious follow up contractor working in home
>>> The joints look crappy.
>I don't completely buy into the wood movement argument as much, I've
>seen bad coped joints from separation as often as bad mitered ones
>from separation. And I've seen a whole lot of bad coped joints
>because somebody got the trim too short during the coping process.
>Coping takes time. Unless a workman is getting paid for the time,
>he's not going to take it.
>
>Jeff
I agree. I'n my house I personally coped all the inside base and crown
corners, paying carefull attention to location of coped and butt ends
when entering exiting rooms and areas. I did however mitre, restain,
and glue the chair rail corners. they just looked wrong at the level
coped. I don;t know why, maybe it was the profile.... Did it take
longer? You betcha. Was it worth it? I think it was.
There are a few quicker techinques when installing paint grade base
that makes mitering corners much faster, especially for contract work.
Granted, acceptable levels of quality have deteriorated over the
years, but the job still needs to be done right. Paint grade we glue
and shim the corners together and the paitners caulk in the gap
between the base and the wall. this works well on base with a larger
top edge than with a narrower one. Stain grade is coped. One
dedicated guy pre-copes pc, while the others cut and nail.
It should be noted that I am now convinced that I am one of the only
remaining few contractors in South Fla. that even knows what a coped
joint is......sigh....
Bossman
bummer, to your 3rd answer. :)
dave
Kelly E Jones wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>My 2 cents worth is that I'd be PISSED! A mitered baseboard looks like
>>hoky. Even with my lack of experience, with about 3 practice pieces, I
>>was able to turn out acceptable coped joints when I replaced all the
>>baseboards in my home. It isn't THAT hard to do. Sounds like he is the
>>laziest of the lazy. However, having said that, I don't know if you
>>have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did you
>>have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
>
>
> No, Yes, No.
>
> Kelly
This is great advice Tom. I took a course at the local college last year on
baseboards and I did learn a few things but you just taught me way more in a
60 second write-up. It's just to bad you didn't put it the form of one of
your humorous stories - I get a kick out of those. I still go back and read
that one about the Ryobi portable table saw once in a while for a good
chuckle.
Thanks for the advice and instruction.
---BeerBoy
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:40:54 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
> (Kelly E Jones) wrote:
>
> >
> >I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> >job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> >mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
> >
> >Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> >to miter such corners, rather than coping?
> >
> >Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> >wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> >right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> >construction and trim carpentry.
> >
> >Kelly
>
> Mitering rather than coping the baseboard is a cheap way of going
> about things but might not be considered "wrong".
>
> If the guy was hired as the low bidder and there's no specs written
> into the contract you may not have much of an argument. You would
> have a right to complain about the quality of the mitered joints.
>
> A first rate coping job takes a little bit of thought. I usually run
> my squared end pieces on the most viewed wall of the room and then run
> the coped pieces onto these. This way, if the wood contracts too
> much, the crack line will not be as obvious to those using the room.
>
> I also usually run a three piece base. The baseboard is most often a
> one by six and this gets butted. The cap can be one of several kinds
> of profile and it is coped. The cap can follow the dips and dives of
> the wall better than a solid base can. The bottom is usually a shoe
> or quarter round molding and this is also coped. The baseboard should
> be back primed and should be applied 'belly out', so that the top and
> bottom edge of the baseboard contacts the wall solidly.
>
> Another thing to consider in running baseboard is the kind of nailing
> that you have. I always check the stud layout and make sure that I
> have good nailing. Too many guys use the air nailer and simply oppose
> the angles of the nails - but too many of the nails are in the wall
> covering rather than the studs. The baseboard should be nailed
> through the top edge, so that the cap will cover the nails. It should
> be nailed at the bottom so that the shoe or quarter round will cover
> the nail but the nails should not be on the same stud, in order to
> reduce the possibility of cracking the baseboard during dry spells.
> The shoe or quarter round should be nailed to the floor so that the
> baseboard can expand and contract behind it without cracking.
> However, if you have a hardwood floor, you must angle the nail so that
> it does not penetrate the flooring.
>
> Also, the inside corners often have to be scraped out in order for the
> baseboard to get tight into the corner. Drywall guys often leave the
> inside corners with too much mud in them and, if the situation is not
> corrected, there will be gaps that allow for more wood movement than
> the joint can tolerate.
>
> The outside corners may have to be tuned up as well. Less skilled
> drywall finishers will leave a hollowed area from the point of the
> metal corner to the un-mudded field of the wall. This will create a
> gap.
>
> On runs greater than the length of the molding available (usually over
> sixteen feet) the joints should be mitered, glued and pinned. The
> outside miters should be glued and pinned. If the guy tells you that
> end grain gluing doesn't hold up, go on to the next guy. The glue is
> used to slow down the absorbtion of moisture into the endgrain. The
> inside joints have glue applied to the end grain for the same reason.
>
> If the trim is pre-finished, you might want to ask how many different
> colors of putty will be used to fill the nail holes. If the guy looks
> at you funny, or says "one", go on to the next guy. I use a minimum
> of three putty colors on a clear finished job.
>
> You can see that a mechanic who takes all of this into consideration
> is going to take a lot longer to do the job than a run and gun sort of
> guy. That translates into more money.
>
> On those rare occasions that I am called out on a competitive bid, I
> show the customer my specs and ask that everybody else bid to those
> specs. That sometimes chases off the lowballers.
>
>
> Regards, Tom
> Tom Watson - Woodworker
> Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
> http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:57:31 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On those rare occasions that I am called out on a competitive bid, I
>show the customer my specs and ask that everybody else bid to those
>specs. That sometimes chases off the lowballers.
I do the same. Nice pics on your site. Would like to see some of the
detail a little better though.
Bossman
>
>
>Regards, Tom
>Tom Watson - Woodworker
>Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
>http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson
In my neck of the woods, they come around and nail a little decorative
molding in each corner over the baseboards/trim. It looks kinda fancy
but it is really to hide the joint. Maybe that is what they are doing
there?
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:48:59 -0700, "Charlie Spitzer"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
>> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
>> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>>
>> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
>> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>>
>> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
>> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
>> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
>> construction and trim carpentry.
>>
>> Kelly
>
>if it's going to be caulked and painted, then that's probably the standard
>now. if it's to be stained (or already is), then i'd have them redo it
>again. they may not know how to.
>
>regards,
>charlie
>cave creek, az
>
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My 2 cents worth is that I'd be PISSED! A mitered baseboard looks like
> hoky. Even with my lack of experience, with about 3 practice pieces, I
> was able to turn out acceptable coped joints when I replaced all the
> baseboards in my home. It isn't THAT hard to do. Sounds like he is the
> laziest of the lazy. However, having said that, I don't know if you
> have the leverage to make his redo the work. Have you paid him? did you
> have a contract? Did it specify what type of joints he'd use?
>
> dave
It is reasonable to expect workman-like product. He should do it right, or
pay for damaged materials and leave. He should eat the price of extra
material.
--
Jim in NC
"Charlie Spitzer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> > job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> > mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
> >
> > Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> > to miter such corners, rather than coping?
> >
> > Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> > wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> > right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> > construction and trim carpentry.
> >
> > Kelly
>
> if it's going to be caulked and painted, then that's probably the standard
> now. if it's to be stained (or already is), then i'd have them redo it
> again. they may not know how to.
>
> regards,
> charlie
> cave creek, az
>
>
Bull. No journeyman carpenter would consider using miters. That is totally
amateuristic, or lower.
--
Jim in NC
"Jeff Cochran" <[email protected]> wrote in message > Coping takes time.
Unless a workman is getting paid for the time,
> he's not going to take it.
>
> Jeff
He wouldn't be working for me, and I would not take a job that demanded such
shortcuts.
I teach carpentry. Guess what my students learn.
--
Jim in NC
I mastered coping after wasting about 2 feet of molding by practicing. Not sure
why a pro can't do it, unless he is just in a hurry.
After contracting for a lot of renovations this year (windows, siding,
skylights) I am convinced that there are very few craftsmen left, just employees
of companies whose only concern is billing jobs.
I have decided in the future that, where possible, I'll just buy the tools,
practice, and do it myself.
"Art Todesco" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:V6Jab.521735$o%2.228021@sccrnsc02...
> OK, I'll have to bite. What is coping, other than using a
> coping saw, that is? I have mitered many baseboards, and have
> had to make fine adjustments after cutting. Is this a way of
> making these "adjustments."
http://www.diyonline.com/servlet/GIB_BaseT/diylib_article.html?session.docid=1666
"Kelly E Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I've got a contractor working on a remodel in my home. As part of the
> job, he's installed some base molding. On inside corners, he has
> mitered (rather than coped) the joint. The joints look crappy.
>
> Is this what passes for workmanship these days? Is it now commonplace
> to miter such corners, rather than coping?
>
> Although this is partly a rant, it's mostly a question. I'm
> wondering whether it's reasonable to ask him to tear it out and do it
> right, or if mitering is what is considered normal these days in
> construction and trim carpentry.
>
> Kelly
I'm a Trim carpenter to trade, and as far as I'm concerned all joints (base,
crown, mouldings etc) should be coped, But having said that sometimes if you
pay 50c a foot thats what you will get. Not nowing what he is charging
it's hard to say how he should be doing it. But again if you think the
joints look crappy, then maybe he's just not good at what he's doing.