Tom H wrote:
> I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
Those sound very close to the dimensions of the doors I built for an
amoire about 15 years ago. I used 1/4 oak plywood, and they have held
up fine in daily service as an entertainment center. Actually, since
the panel floats in the frame and adds no strength except resistance to
wracking, I think the lighter panels help avoid strain on the rail &
stile joints and on the hinges.
DonkeyHody
"You don't really know a man until you have shared an inheritance with
him." - Mark Twain
Tom H wrote:
> I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
Those sound very close to the dimensions of the doors I built for an
amoire about 15 years ago. I used 1/4 oak plywood, and they have held
up fine in daily service as an entertainment center. Actually, since
the panel floats in the frame and adds no strength except resistance to
wracking, I think the lighter panels help avoid strain on the rail &
stile joints and on the hinges.
DonkeyHody
"You don't really know a man until you have shared an inheritance with
him." - Mark Twain
Dont rely on the integrity of the mighty oak. What are your weather
issues? Lots of rain, chainge of climate, ect...
I like to build between bomb proof and reality. Do you want to do this
again in three years or build a monster? By the way plywood will not
hold up; cell cure, prime & painted, marine epoxy... Is this
exterior?
There is some really nice 5/16 ply that could be routed if you have the
means but again ply, if interior you should be good to go.
shoot me a line :
[email protected]
ShutUpAndFish
Master Builder
Cheers and good luck!!!
On Dec 7, 6:15 pm, "Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
Tom H wrote:
> Every show I've ever seen or book read, they let the plywood panel door
> float.
> I always thought this was mandatory, even with plywood.
> Apparently this isn't so, you say!!!!
>
>
Nope - it's not mandatory. I've done it for years with no problems and
that includes cabinets in bathrooms that have HUGE swings in humidity.
Wood movement for inside furniture isn't nearly the issue that people
make it up to be. The wood is sealed which really cuts down the
ammount of moisture absorbed; and with today's climate control, there
isn't all that much moisture to be absorbed for the extended period of
time necessary to make the wood move.
Chris Friesen wrote:
> DonkeyHody wrote:
>
> > Those sound very close to the dimensions of the doors I built for an
> > amoire about 15 years ago. I used 1/4 oak plywood, and they have held
> > up fine in daily service as an entertainment center. Actually, since
> > the panel floats in the frame and adds no strength except resistance to
> > wracking, I think the lighter panels help avoid strain on the rail &
> > stile joints and on the hinges.
>
> With plywood panels why would you not glue it in to add more strength?
>
> Chris
Well, to me it's sort of like whistling while you're making love.
Everything can still be accomplished, but it's very bad form.
DonkeyHody
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there." - Will Rogers
Leon wrote:
> "Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Every show I've ever seen or book read, they let the plywood panel door
> > float.
> > I always thought this was mandatory, even with plywood.
> > Apparently this isn't so, you say!!!!
>
>
> You can glue the panels in place HOWEVER, I have built both ways and get
> different results years later. With the floating panel the rails can expand
> in both directions. If the panels are glued in place that expansion tends
> to move in 1 direction and is twice as significant.
Are these plywood panels or solid wood panels?
I would not expect noticeable expansion of a frame and panel
door with a floating panel or with a plywood panel whether it
floats or not.
With a solid wood panel I would only glue one long-grain
edge and an inch or so of the adjacent corners, or not
at all.
I'd have no qualms about gluing a plywood panel all the way
around as I've had no problem doing that with plywood bottoms
to chests and drawers.
> About 17 years ago I gutted our kitchen an built all the cabinets. I used
> 3/4" plywood trimmed with 2" wide oak glued and reinforced with biscuits.
> All of the joints can be felt and seen "if you look close enough" at the
> ends where the rails have expanded or contracted with seasonal changes. Not
> a big deal, however this difference is much less significant when I use
> floating panels.
> I live in Humid Houston however the house has central air and heat and is
> not often left open to the outside humidity.
--
FF
DonkeyHody wrote:
> Those sound very close to the dimensions of the doors I built for an
> amoire about 15 years ago. I used 1/4 oak plywood, and they have held
> up fine in daily service as an entertainment center. Actually, since
> the panel floats in the frame and adds no strength except resistance to
> wracking, I think the lighter panels help avoid strain on the rail &
> stile joints and on the hinges.
With plywood panels why would you not glue it in to add more strength?
Chris
Leon wrote:
> It really does not affect integrity that much and especially in a controlled
> environment and the panel is not normally the problem so much as the joint
> between the rails and stiles.
But that's the whole point...if you glue the panel solidly all the way
around, then the joint between the rails/stiles becomes essentially
cosmetic. All the loads are taken up by the panel itself.
Chris
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:15:54 GMT, "Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
>I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
>1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
>Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
>
>
Raised panel doors were originally designed to address this problem.
The 3/4" or 5/8" panel was raised and the raised part was on the
hidden side.
I would use the easily available 1/2" ply and cut a rabbet to form a
tongue that would fit the groove.
Let the balance of the ply show towards the back, as they intended
with the raised panel.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
>
I definitely agree with those who say to go with the thin stuff. The
plywood adds no strength to the door; if you cut your slots properly it will
not shake or wobble. But being lighter is a big asset.
You could put in and intermediate rail, so you two 21"x 36" panels. I have
done that on cabinet sides where I wanted extra strength. Since a door
doesn't really need any strength I don't think it is necessary, but you
could...
You want to be darn sure a long thin frame like that doesn't twist. I did a
door about that size and it doesn't really close properly. It is on a
utility cabinet, so I haven't lost any sleep over it.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Are these plywood panels or solid wood panels?
In both reference, plywood panels wurrounded with solid wood rails and
stiles.
>
> I would not expect noticeable expansion of a frame and panel
> door with a floating panel or with a plywood panel whether it
> floats or not.
Well remember on my glued in place with biscuits 3/4" panel the rails and
stiles are butted up against the edge of the 3/4" panel. Wood moves, and
when it has a solid stop such as a glued in place panel it normelly moves in
the path of least resistance and typically twice as much on that direction.
I would not even think of trying to measure that distance on 2" rails and
stiles but if you focus on the joint or run a finger over it you can feel
that the rail is sometimes obviousely proud of the ends of the stiles. If I
had to guess, maybe .008"
With the floating panel designs I dont see as much movement in the rail and
stile joint.
> With a solid wood panel I would only glue one long-grain
> edge and an inch or so of the adjacent corners, or not
> at all.
Correct. The solid wood panel could easily split during seasonal changes.
>
> I'd have no qualms about gluing a plywood panel all the way
> around as I've had no problem doing that with plywood bottoms
> to chests and drawers.
It really does not affect integrity that much and especially in a controlled
environment and the panel is not normally the problem so much as the joint
between the rails and stiles.
I think "Norm" recently dealt with this problem by going thicker,
and then thinning the edges so it fits in a 1/4" slot. Perhaps
it was the 2nd fireplace episode.
Best of both worlds: Sturdy, and no slop at the cost of a little
extra work.
Tom H <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
>
>
>
On 7 Dec 2006 19:00:05 -0800, "Lou" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Although I agree, 1/4" will work just fine, I wonder,,
>how hard is it to find 1/2" oak plywood?
>And if he really wanted 3/8" he could just veneer a peice.
We don't have a problem getting 1/2" oak veneer ply here but I've
never seen 3/8". I've never looked for it though.
Mike O.
"Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Every show I've ever seen or book read, they let the plywood panel door
> float.
> I always thought this was mandatory, even with plywood.
> Apparently this isn't so, you say!!!!
You can glue the panels in place HOWEVER, I have built both ways and get
different results years later. With the floating panel the rails can expand
in both directions. If the panels are glued in place that expansion tends
to move in 1 direction and is twice as significant.
About 17 years ago I gutted our kitchen an built all the cabinets. I used
3/4" plywood trimmed with 2" wide oak glued and reinforced with biscuits.
All of the joints can be felt and seen "if you look close enough" at the
ends where the rails have expanded or contracted with seasonal changes. Not
a big deal, however this difference is much less significant when I use
floating panels.
I live in Humid Houston however the house has central air and heat and is
not often left open to the outside humidity.
In article <[email protected]>, "Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
>I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
>1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
>Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
If those are the only choices, I'd say go with the thicker ply -- but if you
can find plywood that's 1/4" actual, that's probably sufficient.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Every show I've ever seen or book read, they let the plywood panel door
float.
I always thought this was mandatory, even with plywood.
Apparently this isn't so, you say!!!!
"Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom,
>
> My Mission entertainment center built 15 years ago utilized 1/"4 plywood
> in the large double doors. (see photos on website). While I did "skin"
> them with quartersawn veneer on both front and back, I do not think that
> made any difference. And contrary to other posts here in my opinion, since
> you are using STABLE plywood material, you CAN glue them in the frames.
> Every plywood panel door I have ever built including my entire new
> kitchen, I glued the panels for strength, stability and noise factor. The
> expansion of the rails and stiles in the home environment is minimal. It
> is the SOLID wood panels we worry about moving hence the reason not to
> glue then in the frame.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Dennis Slabaugh, Hobbyist Woodworker
>
> www.woodworkinghobby.com
>
>
>
>
> "Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
>> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>>
>> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
>> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
"Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
Good luck finding Oak plywood between 1/4" and 3/4".
1/4" Oak will be fine.
Tom,
My Mission entertainment center built 15 years ago utilized 1/"4 plywood in
the large double doors. (see photos on website). While I did "skin" them
with quartersawn veneer on both front and back, I do not think that made any
difference. And contrary to other posts here in my opinion, since you are
using STABLE plywood material, you CAN glue them in the frames. Every
plywood panel door I have ever built including my entire new kitchen, I
glued the panels for strength, stability and noise factor. The expansion of
the rails and stiles in the home environment is minimal. It is the SOLID
wood panels we worry about moving hence the reason not to glue then in the
frame.
Good luck!
Dennis Slabaugh, Hobbyist Woodworker
www.woodworkinghobby.com
"Tom H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am making two mission style rail & stile doors (21" x 75")
> I had planned on using 1/4" oak plywood for the panels (2 in each door)
>
> 1/4" (3/16" actual) oak plywood seems kind of flimsy.
> Would I be better off using 3/8" (5/16" actual)
>
>
>
"Lou" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Although I agree, 1/4" will work just fine, I wonder,,
> how hard is it to find 1/2" oak plywood?
> And if he really wanted 3/8" he could just veneer a peice.
> Lou
>
With the exception of Birch plywood's like Baltic Birch I can honestly say
that I have never seen hardwood veneer plywood in anything but "sold as"
1/4 and 3/4" thicknesses in the last 30 years in Houston. The thicknesses
are probably available but probably at a premium price and special ordered.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>> It really does not affect integrity that much and especially in a
>> controlled environment and the panel is not normally the problem so much
>> as the joint between the rails and stiles.
>
> But that's the whole point...if you glue the panel solidly all the way
> around, then the joint between the rails/stiles becomes essentially
> cosmetic. All the loads are taken up by the panel itself.
I don't know about you but I strongly consider cosmetics when wood working.
These type doors do not need the strength of the panel holding them
together. Rail and stile doors with glass panels typically weigh much more
than those with 1/4" panels in them and the glass typically floats in them.
Additionally, the entire load is carried by the stile that has the hinges
not the panel.