My Poly Freaken Pealed Off!!

"WOW what a thread for such a little question!!!!

Mike G is right about the sand paper, I have never noticed any real problems
Myself with it, but it is a possible. Now on your finish, when you mixed
the poly with the thinner did you spill any thinner on the wood? did you by
some chance wash your hands with soap before you applied the finish? When
did you last wax you cast-iron? Did any contact glues, like sticker or
label glue get on the surface of the table before applying finish? Any of
these and a few dozen other items getting on the bare wood could cause the
finish not to stick. Did you sand it to fine to allow the finish to grip the
wood. Was the wood cold when you applied the finish? All of these are long
shots but might lead you to an answer on the problem. Lemon or Citrus oil
used to be death to Deft poly finish even after it had cured for a year or
two, not so much of a problem now but think back and see if you can find the
problem and good luck with the refinish.

Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.

--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol per
> the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and let
> dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24 hours
in
> between coats.
>
> The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
> thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup on
it
> earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
from
> the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
was
> actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the table.
> When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
area.
> I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> outer layer pealing off).
>
> I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
What
> a big f---en pain in the a--.
>
> Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
stain
> dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You can
> put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
>
> I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
poly
> (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
> top.
>
>
>

Mike Hide wrote:
> I don't think a water stain under poly should make any difference so long as
> it is absolutely dry. the alcohol should quicken drying but I think you
> should leave it at last overnight in a dry warm environment.
>
> Read the instructions on the dye you are using to make sure even when dry
> that there is nothing in the colorant that could react with the
> finish.....mjh
>
> --
>
>
>
>
I agree, 30 minutes is way too short of time. I've put lots of poly (oil
and WB) over water soluble dyes without events, but I've always allowed
a day or two to dry.

-Bruce



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I used Deft many years ago and hated it due to the fumes. I applied it
outside and still got zonked by it. I used it on an unfinished stereo
cabinet and stuck my head into the interior while brushing it on. It
clears the sinuses and rots the brain. It's a concoction of lacquer and
other junk to allow it to be brushed on. "Nasty" doesn't do it justice.
Wear a respirator if you choose to use it.

dave

stoutman wrote:

> I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time I
> have tried to finish this piece. The first time I used wipe-on poly all
> over the table. On the top I had 4-5 coats. I rubbed out the top with 4F
> pumice and cut through. I had to resand and restain the top. But I didn't
> wipe the poly on again (never again on a top!). I foam brushed it on and
> used a higher ratio of poly to mineral spirits.
>
> I think next time I am gonna try Deft brush on lacquer. The guy at
> woodcraft raves about it. Anyone have any with this stuff?
>
>
> "Young_carpenter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I can think of one big reason
>>Ok two
>>The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would help)
>>An you didn't mention sanding between Poly coats. 24 hours is a long time
>>in the poly realm to recoat and not sand. 4-6 hours might be ok but not
>
> 24,
>
>>especially since at 50:50 the drying/curing time for poly goes down
>>considerably (experience talking here).
>>
>>--
>>Young Carpenter
>>
>>"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
>>plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"
>>
>>{Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
>
> news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
>
>>>I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
>>>stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol
>
> per
>
>>>the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and
>
> let
>
>>>dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
>>>(50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24
>
> hours
>
>>in
>>
>>>between coats.
>>>
>>>The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
>>>noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
>>>thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup
>
> on
>
>>it
>>
>>>earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
>>
>>from
>>
>>>the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
>>
>>was
>>
>>>actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the
>
> table.
>
>>>When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
>>
>>area.
>>
>>>I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
>>>outer layer pealing off).
>>>
>>>I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
>>
>>What
>>
>>>a big f---en pain in the a--.
>>>
>>>Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
>>
>>stain
>>
>>>dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You
>
> can
>
>>>put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
>>>
>>>I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
>>
>>poly
>>
>>>(minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
>>>top.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
> your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
>

Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
caused the failure.

Mike G wrote:

> fine by me. Due to arcane naming a case may even be made for doing so but
> that hasn't been the relevant since the turn of the last century..

Just out of boredom, I piddled around. A dictionary definition from the
turn of the last century (1913) was pretty clear on the point that a
varnish is "resinous matter in an oil or a volatile liquid" and that it
"soon dries, either by evaporation or chemical action."

I consulted a dictionary from 2002 or thereabouts, and the largest
difference between the two was in the etymology of the word. The 1913
definition showed the term "varnish" having come from Latin words related
to glass:

[OE. vernish, F. vernis, LL. vernicium;
akin to F. vernir to varnish, fr. (assumed) LL. vitrinire to
glaze, from LL. vitrinus glassy, fr. L. vitrum glass. See
Vitreous.]

The newer definition shows it coming from Midieval Latin /veronix/,
"sandarac resin," from Midieval Greek /verenike/, from Greek /Berenike/,
which was an "ancient city of Cyrenaica."

Interesting.

Either way, it's pretty clear that all shiny, glassy looking coatings could
be called "varnish" by speakers of the American dialect of the English
language all the way up until 2002. I don't think you have a leg to stand
on with respect to the distinction you're trying to make. Perhaps it would
be less ambiguous to use the term "spirit varnish" to refer to varnishes
that are neither lacquer nor shellac.

Hey, not that I really care. I'm just a bored language weenie, so don't get
bent out of shape over this.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Since there are definitive physical characteristics that have to be
> considered when choosing between shellac, lacquer, and varnish as an
> appropriate finish I continue to find your arguments somewhat less then
> compelling, but if you want to call every common film finish varnish it's
> fine by me. Due to arcane naming a case may even be made for doing so but
> that hasn't been the relevant since the turn of the last century..

I will not disagree with you here. I was simply stating that lacquers and
shellacs are varnishes.
Further, the Bareleys Oil Varnish need not be sanded between coats and that
it will indeed soften the previous layer with reaplication long after 24
hours.

> Personally I would prefer that when I say I varnished, lacquered, or
> shellacked something, the person I am talking to too knows what finish I
am
> referring to plus the make up, physical characteristics, and plusses and
> minuses of that finish.

Generally speaking most people probably do "not" think of a varnish as
being a shellac or lacquer and probably follow your thinking. Up until
about 6 years ago I went with that way of thinking. My brother in-law, an
artist who does mix his own paints pointed out the error in my thinking.
When I first called you on your comments you seemed to be quite specific
about the properties and characteristics of varnishes. I was merely
pointing out that there were exceptions to what you were indicating. Since
I use the Bartley products that do indeed work in some ways contrary to
what you were indicating, no need to sand between coats, I thought I would
point this out. Bartley's is commonly found in most better ww stores.
For grins, you should pick up a small can of the Bartley Gel Varnish and
experiment with it. Just something to try out FYI. I think you will find
that it works a bit differently that the finishes that you categorize as
varnishes. I don't in any way suggest that you switch to this product
unless you want, I am sure that you are getting the results that you are
looking for now.

Ah come on Mike. Are you still mad at me? Ok, everything you said was
right and I apologize. Can we be friends?

I am still a little confused though about your 3D grain, but like you said,
I only have 1.5 years experience. Maybe in a few years my grain will appear
3-D. Can you offer any advise on this matter? Do you give seminars on
finishing?

:)


"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
> your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
>
> --
> Mike G.
> [email protected]
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> > I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> > stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol
per
> > the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and
let
> > dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> > (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24
hours
> in
> > between coats.
> >
> > The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> > noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
> > thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup
on
> it
> > earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
> from
> > the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
> was
> > actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the
table.
> > When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
> area.
> > I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> > outer layer pealing off).
> >
> > I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
> What
> > a big f---en pain in the a--.
> >
> > Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
> stain
> > dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You
can
> > put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
> >
> > I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
> poly
> > (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
> > top.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

A little more on the definition of a varnish including those in the form of
shellac's and lacquers.

This was taken from Columbia University Electronic Encyclopedia Sixth
edition.

varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in
oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on
exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for
the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile
solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish
with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a
volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the
sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for
the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied
when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and
other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their
instruments.

added that one to the keepers file,

thanks mike

KY

--

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland


"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> First thing to do is to take a look at the packages of your sandpaper.and
> check to see if it says stearted or some derivitated there of anywhere on
> it.
>
> Steartes on the sandpaper or in sanding sealrs are metallic soaps added to
> make sanding easier by acting as a lubricant to keep the paper from
> clogging.
>
> The down side is that it can give you adhesion problems. In general
sanding
> sealer and stearated sandpaper are best avoided. If the sandpaper getting
> gummed up is a problem it's better to use and open coat paper or more
> sandpaper..
>
> It isn't absoutly necessary to sand a varnish if you are recoating in less
> then 24 hours but it doesn't hurt. After 24 hours it is necessary to
provide
> some tooth so the next coat of varnish can mechanically bond to the
previous
> coat. Unlike shellac and lacquer varnish doesn't bun in to previous coats.
>
> However long you waited between coats I'll assume you sanded then wiped
down
> the surface. What did you use to wipe down after sanding? That would be
> another place to look for this type of problem. My preference is to vac
the
> surface rather then taking a chance on leaving any residuales on it. I'd
> have to also ask to what grit you sanded between coats. Hopefull not a
real
> high grit. 220 is usually sufficiant, get much higher then that and you
> aren't leaving a lot of tooth. Think sanding maple to, say, 600 grit and
> trying to stain it with a pigment stain. It's be like trying to stain
steel.
> There are insufficient places for the pigment to gather and get bonded.l
>
> Temperature and thickness of coats can have a lot to do on the curing of a
> finish. The principal ingrediant of an oil varnish is tung oil
(hopefully).
> The thicker the coat/coats the longer it takes to cure properly. Bury a
> thick coat under three or four more thick coats and your grandkids may be
> waiting for the finish to completly cure.The same if the temperature is
too
> low. My opinion, thin coats are better and I'll generally leave the shop
> thermostat turned up overnight if I am waiting on an oil to cure.
>
> As a side note, I've heard it said that some of the "Old Masters"
paintings
> still haven't dried completly
>
> There is a start anyway. The solution may not be there but it is my list
of
> "The usual suspects".
>
> As to the 3D effect. Possibly I caused some confusion. The term most heard
> here on the rec is poping the grain. If you happen to have some nicely
> figured wood scrap around give it a coat of tung oil, let it dry, spring
for
> a spray can of lacqer and apply four or five coats then rub it out,
removing
> the surface gloss, (couldn't help myself there) and get a deep sheen.
After
> it has been rubbed out hold it up and move it around under a glancing
light.
> Do it right and the grain of the wood will actually look like it has a
depth
> of it's own ie 3D.
>
>
> --
> Mike G.
> [email protected]
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
>
>

Since there are definitive physical characteristics that have to be
considered when choosing between shellac, lacquer, and varnish as an
appropriate finish I continue to find your arguments somewhat less then
compelling, but if you want to call every common film finish varnish it's
fine by me. Due to arcane naming a case may even be made for doing so but
that hasn't been the relevant since the turn of the last century..

Personally I would prefer that when I say I varnished, lacquered, or
shellacked something, the person I am talking to too knows what finish I am
referring to plus the make up, physical characteristics, and plusses and
minuses of that finish.

--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >Interesting... but Varnish is a generic term. Shellac and lacquer can
> be
> > > considered varnishes.
> >
> > I'm not sure where you came up with that but the only part I can agree
> with
> > is that varnish is a generic term in that any finish made up of a curing
> > oil, resins and a carrier/thinner can be considered a varnish. And, of
> > course, neither shellac or lacquer meets that criteria.
>
> > Further varnish is a reactive curing finish and both shellac and lacquer
> > cure through evaporation of their thinner/solvent.
> >
> > Finally, both shellac and lacquer, when cured, have solvents which also
> acts
> > as their thinner, alcohol and lacquer thinner respectively. Cured
varnish
> > has no solvents. The thinner, usually mineral spirits, has no dissolving
> > effect on cured varnish.nor does alcohol or lacquer thinner.
> >
> > So, I'm sure you can see why I more then a little problem with your
> > statement and can not see where the properties of shellac and alcohol
fit
> in
> > under the generic term of varnish.
>
> Actualluy a varnish is, A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or
> evaporating binder, used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy,
transparent
> film. The type of parts used in the mix need not be any specific one
except
> to perform a specific function.
>
> Additionally, Shellac is defined as
> 1. A purified lac in the form of thin yellow or orange flakes, often
> bleached white and widely used in varnishes, paints, inks, sealants, and
> formerly in phonograph records.
> 2. A thin varnish made by dissolving this substance in denatured alcohol,
> used to finish wood.a thin varnish made by dissolving this substance in
> denatured alcohol, used to finish wood.
>
>
> > As for the gel varnish example, well, it's meaningless and proves
nothing.
> > You can build up any spots in any surface finish by applying more. That
> > does not mean it is melding with the previous coat, which it isn't in
the
> > example you give to justify the statement that shellac and lacquer falls
> > under the term varnish.
>
> The proof is how I repair or remove thick spots that I over looked.
> No actually the rough spot softens and can be rubbed off with a single rag
> stroke or scraped off with your finger nail if the fresh gel is left to
set
> a bit on top of the problem area.
>
>
> > Gel varnish fills the hole better and faster because it has less
shrinkage
> > then what you would get trying to do it with a liquid varnish but that
> > doesn't mean it is burning into the previous coats.
>
> Again, if for example and specifically concerning Bartley's gel varnish if
> you leave a finger print on the first coat and let it dry for a day ot two
> you can reapply more gel varnish to that spot and that spot will soften
and
> can esaily be rubbed away. Rub enough times with a fresh spot on the rag
> and you can almost get back down to bare wood. Additionally Bartley's Gel
> Varnish specifically indicates no need or not to sand between coats.
>
>
>
>

Mmmm, how to put this

Fuck you ought to do it just fine.

I know exactly what the original poster was asking and I know he's a smart
ass with a year and a half of woodworking and he read some stuff on the
homestead site and thinks it makes him an expert.

Your so fuckiing smart you answer him.

--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
> > your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
> >
>
> Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
> caused the failure.

Way to go Mike. I wouldn't expect any less of you. you are really showing
these folks your true colors!!

Hay Mike, why don't you go kick your dog around or something? Might make
you feel better about yourself. At least for a little while anyway right?

If no dog, the wife should do just fine.



"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mmmm, how to put this
>
> Fuck you ought to do it just fine.
>
> I know exactly what the original poster was asking and I know he's a smart
> ass with a year and a half of woodworking and he read some stuff on the
> homestead site and thinks it makes him an expert.
>
> Your so fuckiing smart you answer him.
>
> --
> Mike G.
> [email protected]
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
> "Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but,
with
> > > your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
> > >
> >
> > Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
> > caused the failure.
>
>

I am chiming in here way late and the advise given is good. BUT... you
mentioned that you hate finishing and you also mentioned that you used
Miniwax.... I have been doing this for 20+ years and hate Minwax
products... I do not hate finishing....

May I suggest General Finishes, Bartleys and or Zar? You will probably not
find them in the typical home center or hardware store. Check out the
woodworking stored like Wood Craft.

I shared somewhat the same frustrations in not having an HVLP. I
couldn't see spending a grand, "just to do finishing". Finally I
realized there's no decent alternative, so I bit the bullet and got an
Accuspray HVLP. Using it is remarkably satisfying, if somewhat
expensive. Think long and hard about "making do" without one.

dave

stoutman wrote:

> Thanks for the advice. I just wish I had a HVLP equipment. I gotta elbow
> grease all my finishes on. :(
>
> Will the shellac hold the poly to the surface of the better?
>
> The poly is new. I got a small can just for this project.(minwax).
>
> I think my poly days are over for now. I'm gonna try something different
> next time. I have no spray equipment though. Maybe brush on lacquer next
> time.
>
>
>
>
> "Lawrence L'Hote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:mAQUb.237607$xy6.1242913@attbi_s02...
>
>>"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
>
> news:RaQUb.187119$5V2.967440@attbi_s53...
>
>>>I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time
>
> I
>
>>>have tried to finish this piece. > "Young_carpenter"
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>I can think of one big reason
>>>>Ok two
>>>>The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would
>
> help)
>
>>>news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
>>>
>>>>>I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint
>>
>>dye
>>
>>>>>stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl
>
> alcohol
>
>>-----lots of snippage above-----------
>>FWIW, when I use the water based dyes I always wait overnight for it to
>
> dry
>
>>then hit the high spots very lightly with a 3M 220 sanding sponge to get
>
> rid
>
>>of those wood wiskers. Then I lay on a light coat of 1 lb shellac, let
>
> that
>
>>dry and sand lightly with the sponge. Then I apply thinned poly(with
>
> HVLP)
>
>>sanding lightly between coats. IIWY I would toss that can of poly and
>
> get
>
>>another brand or a fresh can of the same.
>>
>>Larry
>>
>>
>
>
>

Or try 'compatible' materials.

'Water spray, dry, & sand' process to raise & remove 'fuzz' - -
'Water Based' die defused in water - - 24-hour dry
'Water Based' poly - - one coat - - let dry at least 2-3 hours - - lightly
sand to remove any remaining 'fuzz' and give 'tooth' for next coat
'Water Based' poly - - as many coats as you like{for me, this is typically
6}, 24-hours apart, lightly sanding with finer & finer grits between. This
gives a very hard, abrasion resistant finish for anything that will be a
'working' surface. {as opposed to purely decorative}

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop


"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol per
> the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and let
> dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24 hours
in
> between coats.
SNIP

The discoloration wasactually a section of poly that had lifted from the
surface of the table.
> When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
area.
> I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> outer layer pealing off).
>
> I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
What
> a big f---en pain in the a--.

First thing to do is to take a look at the packages of your sandpaper.and
check to see if it says stearted or some derivitated there of anywhere on
it.

Steartes on the sandpaper or in sanding sealrs are metallic soaps added to
make sanding easier by acting as a lubricant to keep the paper from
clogging.

The down side is that it can give you adhesion problems. In general sanding
sealer and stearated sandpaper are best avoided. If the sandpaper getting
gummed up is a problem it's better to use and open coat paper or more
sandpaper..

It isn't absoutly necessary to sand a varnish if you are recoating in less
then 24 hours but it doesn't hurt. After 24 hours it is necessary to provide
some tooth so the next coat of varnish can mechanically bond to the previous
coat. Unlike shellac and lacquer varnish doesn't bun in to previous coats.

However long you waited between coats I'll assume you sanded then wiped down
the surface. What did you use to wipe down after sanding? That would be
another place to look for this type of problem. My preference is to vac the
surface rather then taking a chance on leaving any residuales on it. I'd
have to also ask to what grit you sanded between coats. Hopefull not a real
high grit. 220 is usually sufficiant, get much higher then that and you
aren't leaving a lot of tooth. Think sanding maple to, say, 600 grit and
trying to stain it with a pigment stain. It's be like trying to stain steel.
There are insufficient places for the pigment to gather and get bonded.l

Temperature and thickness of coats can have a lot to do on the curing of a
finish. The principal ingrediant of an oil varnish is tung oil (hopefully).
The thicker the coat/coats the longer it takes to cure properly. Bury a
thick coat under three or four more thick coats and your grandkids may be
waiting for the finish to completly cure.The same if the temperature is too
low. My opinion, thin coats are better and I'll generally leave the shop
thermostat turned up overnight if I am waiting on an oil to cure.

As a side note, I've heard it said that some of the "Old Masters" paintings
still haven't dried completly

There is a start anyway. The solution may not be there but it is my list of
"The usual suspects".

As to the 3D effect. Possibly I caused some confusion. The term most heard
here on the rec is poping the grain. If you happen to have some nicely
figured wood scrap around give it a coat of tung oil, let it dry, spring for
a spray can of lacqer and apply four or five coats then rub it out, removing
the surface gloss, (couldn't help myself there) and get a deep sheen. After
it has been rubbed out hold it up and move it around under a glancing light.
Do it right and the grain of the wood will actually look like it has a depth
of it's own ie 3D.


--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

I don't think a water stain under poly should make any difference so long as
it is absolutely dry. the alcohol should quicken drying but I think you
should leave it at last overnight in a dry warm environment.

Read the instructions on the dye you are using to make sure even when dry
that there is nothing in the colorant that could react with the
finish.....mjh

--




"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol per
> the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and let
> dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24 hours
in
> between coats.
>
> The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
> thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup on
it
> earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
from
> the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
was
> actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the table.
> When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
area.
> I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> outer layer pealing off).
>
> I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
What
> a big f---en pain in the a--.
>
> Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
stain
> dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You can
> put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
>
> I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
poly
> (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
> top.
>
>
>

Fair enough Leon, we don't agree.

As for the gel varnish, not having used it nor done any real research into
the type of product, I'll be happy too take your word that it is a different
animal from my definition of varnish..



--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Since there are definitive physical characteristics that have to be
> > considered when choosing between shellac, lacquer, and varnish as an
> > appropriate finish I continue to find your arguments somewhat less then
> > compelling, but if you want to call every common film finish varnish
it's
> > fine by me. Due to arcane naming a case may even be made for doing so
but
> > that hasn't been the relevant since the turn of the last century..
>
> I will not disagree with you here. I was simply stating that lacquers and
> shellacs are varnishes.
> Further, the Bareleys Oil Varnish need not be sanded between coats and
that
> it will indeed soften the previous layer with reaplication long after 24
> hours.
>
> > Personally I would prefer that when I say I varnished, lacquered, or
> > shellacked something, the person I am talking to too knows what finish I
> am
> > referring to plus the make up, physical characteristics, and plusses and
> > minuses of that finish.
>
> Generally speaking most people probably do "not" think of a varnish as
> being a shellac or lacquer and probably follow your thinking. Up until
> about 6 years ago I went with that way of thinking. My brother in-law, an
> artist who does mix his own paints pointed out the error in my thinking.
> When I first called you on your comments you seemed to be quite specific
> about the properties and characteristics of varnishes. I was merely
> pointing out that there were exceptions to what you were indicating.
Since
> I use the Bartley products that do indeed work in some ways contrary to
> what you were indicating, no need to sand between coats, I thought I would
> point this out. Bartley's is commonly found in most better ww stores.
> For grins, you should pick up a small can of the Bartley Gel Varnish and
> experiment with it. Just something to try out FYI. I think you will find
> that it works a bit differently that the finishes that you categorize as
> varnishes. I don't in any way suggest that you switch to this product
> unless you want, I am sure that you are getting the results that you are
> looking for now.
>
>

how come all those new cool yellow norton papers are stearated? they
are expressly marked for sanding between coats for WW projects. Norton
isn't exactly a minor player in the sandpaper business.

Here's what the "3X" package says:

The best choice for sanding between coasts of finish
Superior performance for a premium surface finish
Won't clog, tear or transfer color

Maybe you should call them up and ask them politely if they know what
they are doing.

dave


Mike G wrote:

> First thing to do is to take a look at the packages of your sandpaper.and
> check to see if it says stearted or some derivitated there of anywhere on
> it.
>
> Steartes on the sandpaper or in sanding sealrs are metallic soaps added to
> make sanding easier by acting as a lubricant to keep the paper from
> clogging.
>
> The down side is that it can give you adhesion problems. In general sanding
> sealer and stearated sandpaper are best avoided. If the sandpaper getting
> gummed up is a problem it's better to use and open coat paper or more
> sandpaper..
>
> It isn't absoutly necessary to sand a varnish if you are recoating in less
> then 24 hours but it doesn't hurt. After 24 hours it is necessary to provide
> some tooth so the next coat of varnish can mechanically bond to the previous
> coat. Unlike shellac and lacquer varnish doesn't bun in to previous coats.
>
> However long you waited between coats I'll assume you sanded then wiped down
> the surface. What did you use to wipe down after sanding? That would be
> another place to look for this type of problem. My preference is to vac the
> surface rather then taking a chance on leaving any residuales on it. I'd
> have to also ask to what grit you sanded between coats. Hopefull not a real
> high grit. 220 is usually sufficiant, get much higher then that and you
> aren't leaving a lot of tooth. Think sanding maple to, say, 600 grit and
> trying to stain it with a pigment stain. It's be like trying to stain steel.
> There are insufficient places for the pigment to gather and get bonded.l
>
> Temperature and thickness of coats can have a lot to do on the curing of a
> finish. The principal ingrediant of an oil varnish is tung oil (hopefully).
> The thicker the coat/coats the longer it takes to cure properly. Bury a
> thick coat under three or four more thick coats and your grandkids may be
> waiting for the finish to completly cure.The same if the temperature is too
> low. My opinion, thin coats are better and I'll generally leave the shop
> thermostat turned up overnight if I am waiting on an oil to cure.
>
> As a side note, I've heard it said that some of the "Old Masters" paintings
> still haven't dried completly
>
> There is a start anyway. The solution may not be there but it is my list of
> "The usual suspects".
>
> As to the 3D effect. Possibly I caused some confusion. The term most heard
> here on the rec is poping the grain. If you happen to have some nicely
> figured wood scrap around give it a coat of tung oil, let it dry, spring for
> a spray can of lacqer and apply four or five coats then rub it out, removing
> the surface gloss, (couldn't help myself there) and get a deep sheen. After
> it has been rubbed out hold it up and move it around under a glancing light.
> Do it right and the grain of the wood will actually look like it has a depth
> of it's own ie 3D.
>
>

LOL! you cracked me up!

dave

[email protected] wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 06:45:31 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>
>
>>Mike,
>>
>>Just a little advise. Is it really a good idea to create posts like this
>>when you SIGN each of your messages with your BUSINESS?? Not good business
>>practice/advertising.
>>
>>Furthermore, your web page has your phone number associated with it. Ever
>>heard of reverse look up?? Lot of crackpots read and post here. Be
>>careful. This is not a threat, but rather advise.
>>
>
> Not to worry.
> All the crackpots in this group have been holding their weekly meetings at
> Mike's house for years.
> Mike is the Grand Crackpot.:)
>
>
>
>>
>>"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Mmmm, how to put this
>>>
>>>Fuck you ought to do it just fine.
>>>
>>>I know exactly what the original poster was asking and I know he's a smart
>>>ass with a year and a half of woodworking and he read some stuff on the
>>>homestead site and thinks it makes him an expert.
>>>
>>>Your so fuckiing smart you answer him.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Mike G.
>>>[email protected]
>>>Heirloom Woods
>>>www.heirloom-woods.net
>>>"Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>>news:<[email protected]>...
>>>
>>>>>Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but,
>>
>>with
>>
>>>>>your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
>>>>caused the failure.
>>>
>>>
>

I hate foam brushes an poly.
4-5 coats of wipe on won't do if you want to hi polish That's like putting
2 coats of regular no thin on.
I found that 33% mineral spirits is much better than 50/50
and yes the last project I did was with Deft Brush on lacquer. For the most
part it applies much like poly and lacquer thinner helps with any mistakes
beautifully, I used stain under neath and didn't find any leak through. It
dried quickly in 60-70 degree weather. Of course keeping a wet edge is even
more important than for poly but more for the smoothness of brushing than
anything. A little streak here and there won't hurt if it is only an
undercoat, and the next coat is put on within 24 hours. Make sure you spend
a little extra for good soft synthetic brush, I think the one I used was for
enamels or something. Oh yes and it does smell and it takes a while for the
stuff to fully cure so the smell lingers for about a week after that you
have to put your nose buy the project to smell it.


--
Young Carpenter

"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"

{Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
--


"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:RaQUb.187119$5V2.967440@attbi_s53...
> I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time I
> have tried to finish this piece. The first time I used wipe-on poly all
> over the table. On the top I had 4-5 coats. I rubbed out the top with 4F
> pumice and cut through. I had to resand and restain the top. But I
didn't
> wipe the poly on again (never again on a top!). I foam brushed it on and
> used a higher ratio of poly to mineral spirits.
>
> I think next time I am gonna try Deft brush on lacquer. The guy at
> woodcraft raves about it. Anyone have any with this stuff?
>
>
> "Young_carpenter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I can think of one big reason
> > Ok two
> > The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would help)
> > An you didn't mention sanding between Poly coats. 24 hours is a long
time
> > in the poly realm to recoat and not sand. 4-6 hours might be ok but not
> 24,
> > especially since at 50:50 the drying/curing time for poly goes down
> > considerably (experience talking here).
> >
> > --
> > Young Carpenter
> >
> > "Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
> > plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"
> >
> > {Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> > > I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint
dye
> > > stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol
> per
> > > the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and
> let
> > > dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer
coat
> > > (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24
> hours
> > in
> > > between coats.
> > >
> > > The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> > > noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which
I
> > > thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup
> on
> > it
> > > earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger
nail
> > from
> > > the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The
discoloration
> > was
> > > actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the
> table.
> > > When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
> > area.
> > > I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just
an
> > > outer layer pealing off).
> > >
> > > I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
> > What
> > > a big f---en pain in the a--.
> > >
> > > Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
> > stain
> > > dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You
> can
> > > put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
> > >
> > > I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving
the
> > poly
> > > (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on
the
> > > top.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time I
have tried to finish this piece. The first time I used wipe-on poly all
over the table. On the top I had 4-5 coats. I rubbed out the top with 4F
pumice and cut through. I had to resand and restain the top. But I didn't
wipe the poly on again (never again on a top!). I foam brushed it on and
used a higher ratio of poly to mineral spirits.

I think next time I am gonna try Deft brush on lacquer. The guy at
woodcraft raves about it. Anyone have any with this stuff?


"Young_carpenter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I can think of one big reason
> Ok two
> The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would help)
> An you didn't mention sanding between Poly coats. 24 hours is a long time
> in the poly realm to recoat and not sand. 4-6 hours might be ok but not
24,
> especially since at 50:50 the drying/curing time for poly goes down
> considerably (experience talking here).
>
> --
> Young Carpenter
>
> "Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
> plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"
>
> {Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
>
> --
>
>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> > I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> > stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol
per
> > the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and
let
> > dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> > (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24
hours
> in
> > between coats.
> >
> > The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> > noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
> > thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup
on
> it
> > earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
> from
> > the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
> was
> > actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the
table.
> > When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
> area.
> > I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> > outer layer pealing off).
> >
> > I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
> What
> > a big f---en pain in the a--.
> >
> > Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
> stain
> > dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You
can
> > put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
> >
> > I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
> poly
> > (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
> > top.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

One thing I should add, first of all in most cases water based stains are
supposidly the best because they penetrate deeper.
On the other hand they invariably raise the grain which is a pain in the
a..... There are two solutions use a good non grain raising [NGR] stain or
secondly raise the grain before staining . To do the latter after final
sanding [incidentally I have been finishing for over 30 years and have never
had any problem with sterated papers] wet the surface with a dilute glue
water solution ,let dry and resand . I used to do this three times , the
glue part when it dries will generall hold the "whiskers" out
so they sand off easier. If you do this then it should almost eliminate the
need to sand the finishing coat bar the need togive the susequent coat a
"key" and to eliminate any knobs that got into the existing finish coat
while it was still wet.

One you move to stains other than water based [NGR] try and get one that has
no pigment , that just colors the wood. then the grain will really "pop" as
there is now nothing to obscure it .....mjh
--




"Mike Hide" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:NAHUb.186120$5V2.909485@attbi_s53...
> I don't think a water stain under poly should make any difference so long
as
> it is absolutely dry. the alcohol should quicken drying but I think you
> should leave it at last overnight in a dry warm environment.
>
> Read the instructions on the dye you are using to make sure even when dry
> that there is nothing in the colorant that could react with the
> finish.....mjh
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> > I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> > stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol
per
> > the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and
let
> > dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> > (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24
hours
> in
> > between coats.
> >
> > The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> > noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
> > thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup
on
> it
> > earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
> from
> > the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
> was
> > actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the
table.
> > When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
> area.
> > I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> > outer layer pealing off).
> >
> > I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
> What
> > a big f---en pain in the a--.
> >
> > Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
> stain
> > dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You
can
> > put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
> >
> > I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
> poly
> > (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
> > top.
> >
> >
> >
>

Between "COASTS" !!! so whats that all about ??? mjh

--




"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> how come all those new cool yellow norton papers are stearated? they
> are expressly marked for sanding between coats for WW projects. Norton
> isn't exactly a minor player in the sandpaper business.
>
> Here's what the "3X" package says:
>
> The best choice for sanding between coasts of finish
> Superior performance for a premium surface finish
> Won't clog, tear or transfer color
>
> Maybe you should call them up and ask them politely if they know what
> they are doing.
>
> dave
>
>
> Mike G wrote:
>
> > First thing to do is to take a look at the packages of your
sandpaper.and
> > check to see if it says stearted or some derivitated there of anywhere
on
> > it.
> >
> > Steartes on the sandpaper or in sanding sealrs are metallic soaps added
to
> > make sanding easier by acting as a lubricant to keep the paper from
> > clogging.
> >
> > The down side is that it can give you adhesion problems. In general
sanding
> > sealer and stearated sandpaper are best avoided. If the sandpaper
getting
> > gummed up is a problem it's better to use and open coat paper or more
> > sandpaper..
> >
> > It isn't absoutly necessary to sand a varnish if you are recoating in
less
> > then 24 hours but it doesn't hurt. After 24 hours it is necessary to
provide
> > some tooth so the next coat of varnish can mechanically bond to the
previous
> > coat. Unlike shellac and lacquer varnish doesn't bun in to previous
coats.
> >
> > However long you waited between coats I'll assume you sanded then wiped
down
> > the surface. What did you use to wipe down after sanding? That would be
> > another place to look for this type of problem. My preference is to vac
the
> > surface rather then taking a chance on leaving any residuales on it. I'd
> > have to also ask to what grit you sanded between coats. Hopefull not a r
eal
> > high grit. 220 is usually sufficiant, get much higher then that and you
> > aren't leaving a lot of tooth. Think sanding maple to, say, 600 grit and
> > trying to stain it with a pigment stain. It's be like trying to stain
steel.
> > There are insufficient places for the pigment to gather and get bonded.l
> >
> > Temperature and thickness of coats can have a lot to do on the curing of
a
> > finish. The principal ingrediant of an oil varnish is tung oil
(hopefully).
> > The thicker the coat/coats the longer it takes to cure properly. Bury a
> > thick coat under three or four more thick coats and your grandkids may
be
> > waiting for the finish to completly cure.The same if the temperature is
too
> > low. My opinion, thin coats are better and I'll generally leave the shop
> > thermostat turned up overnight if I am waiting on an oil to cure.
> >
> > As a side note, I've heard it said that some of the "Old Masters"
paintings
> > still haven't dried completly
> >
> > There is a start anyway. The solution may not be there but it is my list
of
> > "The usual suspects".
> >
> > As to the 3D effect. Possibly I caused some confusion. The term most
heard
> > here on the rec is poping the grain. If you happen to have some nicely
> > figured wood scrap around give it a coat of tung oil, let it dry, spring
for
> > a spray can of lacqer and apply four or five coats then rub it out,
removing
> > the surface gloss, (couldn't help myself there) and get a deep sheen.
After
> > it has been rubbed out hold it up and move it around under a glancing
light.
> > Do it right and the grain of the wood will actually look like it has a
depth
> > of it's own ie 3D.
> >
> >
>

I can think of one big reason
Ok two
The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would help)
An you didn't mention sanding between Poly coats. 24 hours is a long time
in the poly realm to recoat and not sand. 4-6 hours might be ok but not 24,
especially since at 50:50 the drying/curing time for poly goes down
considerably (experience talking here).

--
Young Carpenter

"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"

{Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}

--


"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol per
> the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and let
> dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> (50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24 hours
in
> between coats.
>
> The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which I
> thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup on
it
> earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
from
> the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
was
> actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the table.
> When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
area.
> I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> outer layer pealing off).
>
> I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
What
> a big f---en pain in the a--.
>
> Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
stain
> dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You can
> put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
>
> I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
poly
> (minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on the
> top.
>
>
>

>Interesting... but Varnish is a generic term. Shellac and lacquer can be
> considered varnishes.

I'm not sure where you came up with that but the only part I can agree with
is that varnish is a generic term in that any finish made up of a curing
oil, resins and a carrier/thinner can be considered a varnish. And, of
course, neither shellac or lacquer meets that criteria.

Further varnish is a reactive curing finish and both shellac and lacquer
cure through evaporation of their thinner/solvent.

Finally, both shellac and lacquer, when cured, have solvents which also acts
as their thinner, alcohol and lacquer thinner respectively. Cured varnish
has no solvents. The thinner, usually mineral spirits, has no dissolving
effect on cured varnish.nor does alcohol or lacquer thinner.

So, I'm sure you can see why I more then a little problem with your
statement and can not see where the properties of shellac and alcohol fit in
under the generic term of varnish.

As for the gel varnish example, well, it's meaningless and proves nothing.
You can build up any spots in any surface finish by applying more. That
does not mean it is melding with the previous coat, which it isn't in the
example you give to justify the statement that shellac and lacquer falls
under the term varnish.

Gel varnish fills the hole better and faster because it has less shrinkage
then what you would get trying to do it with a liquid varnish but that
doesn't mean it is burning into the previous coats. The same effect can be
achieved with a liquid varnish by forming a dam of some sort, modeling clay
works well, around the spot and pouring in liquid varnish then waiting,
usually for several days, for it to cure. Neither of these procedures, gel
or liquid, requires burn in and the physical properties of varnish, no
solvent, prevents it.




--
Mike G.
[email protected]
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Snip
>
> > It isn't absoutly necessary to sand a varnish if you are recoating in
less
> > then 24 hours but it doesn't hurt. After 24 hours it is necessary to
> provide
> > some tooth so the next coat of varnish can mechanically bond to the
> previous
> > coat. Unlike shellac and lacquer varnish doesn't bun in to previous
coats.
>
> That said, there are varnishes that are not shellac
> or lacquer that do indeed burn in and or meld into the previous coat of
> varnish. Take Bartley's Gel Varnish for instance. Several days after
> aplication you can spot apply more of that gel varnish to a rough spot
and
> smooth it over with a rag or simply add another coat.
>
>
>

and those possible reasons are?

dave

Mike G wrote:
> Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
> your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
>

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:07:38 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:

>Dave,
>
>Mike is mad at me and just want to taunt me with is extensive knowledge on
>refinishing. Granted, he has more experience than me, and probably knows
>more than me about woodworking and finishing, as do most people on this NG,
>but I think he is a little nutty. :)
>
Just a 'little' nutty?

"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Snip

> It isn't absoutly necessary to sand a varnish if you are recoating in less
> then 24 hours but it doesn't hurt. After 24 hours it is necessary to
provide
> some tooth so the next coat of varnish can mechanically bond to the
previous
> coat. Unlike shellac and lacquer varnish doesn't bun in to previous coats.

Interesting... but Varnish is a generic term. Shellac and lacquer can be
considered varnishes. That said, there are varnishes that are not shellac
or lacquer that do indeed burn in and or meld into the previous coat of
varnish. Take Bartley's Gel Varnish for instance. Several days after
aplication you can spot apply more of that gel varnish to a rough spot and
smooth it over with a rag or simply add another coat.

Mike,

Just a little advise. Is it really a good idea to create posts like this
when you SIGN each of your messages with your BUSINESS?? Not good business
practice/advertising.

Furthermore, your web page has your phone number associated with it. Ever
heard of reverse look up?? Lot of crackpots read and post here. Be
careful. This is not a threat, but rather advise.



"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mmmm, how to put this
>
> Fuck you ought to do it just fine.
>
> I know exactly what the original poster was asking and I know he's a smart
> ass with a year and a half of woodworking and he read some stuff on the
> homestead site and thinks it makes him an expert.
>
> Your so fuckiing smart you answer him.
>
> --
> Mike G.
> [email protected]
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
> "Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but,
with
> > > your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
> > >
> >
> > Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
> > caused the failure.
>
>

stoutman wrote:

> Do most people hate finishing? I love woodworking, but HATE finishing more
> and more with every project. Does it get easier? Will I grow to love it?

Love it? Probably not. You'll grow to stop dreading it so much once you
finally discover shellac though. Screw it up, no problem, just do it over
again.

It's not a durable as poly, but it doesn't have any of poly's down sides
either. It doesn't take forever and a day to dry, it doesn't attract dust,
it doesn't demand sanding between coats just to get the next layer to
stick, it doesn't give everything a dipped in plastic look, and it doesn't
require extremely noxious chemicals to strip off if something goes wrong.

Shellac is awesome. Poly sucks. I have finally seen the light. :)

I agree with the others, BTW, that you didn't wait long enough for the stain
to dry. I'd have waited a couple days at least. Oil and water don't mix
after all.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Hopefully, he'll get over it and start giving some WW advice. I'm
watching my p's and q's to avoid as many rancorous replies as I can! :)

dave

stoutman wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Mike is mad at me and just want to taunt me with is extensive knowledge on
> refinishing. Granted, he has more experience than me, and probably knows
> more than me about woodworking and finishing, as do most people on this NG,
> but I think he is a little nutty. :)
>
>
>
> Do most people hate finishing? I love woodworking, but HATE finishing more
> and more with every project. Does it get easier? Will I grow to love it?
>
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>and those possible reasons are?
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Mike G wrote:
>>
>>>Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
>>>your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
>>>
>>
>
>

Thanks for the advice. I just wish I had a HVLP equipment. I gotta elbow
grease all my finishes on. :(

Will the shellac hold the poly to the surface of the better?

The poly is new. I got a small can just for this project.(minwax).

I think my poly days are over for now. I'm gonna try something different
next time. I have no spray equipment though. Maybe brush on lacquer next
time.




"Lawrence L'Hote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:mAQUb.237607$xy6.1242913@attbi_s02...
>
> "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:RaQUb.187119$5V2.967440@attbi_s53...
> > I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time
I
> > have tried to finish this piece. > "Young_carpenter"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I can think of one big reason
> > > Ok two
> > > The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would
help)
> > news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> > > > I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint
> dye
> > > > stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl
alcohol
>
> -----lots of snippage above-----------
> FWIW, when I use the water based dyes I always wait overnight for it to
dry
> then hit the high spots very lightly with a 3M 220 sanding sponge to get
rid
> of those wood wiskers. Then I lay on a light coat of 1 lb shellac, let
that
> dry and sand lightly with the sponge. Then I apply thinned poly(with
HVLP)
> sanding lightly between coats. IIWY I would toss that can of poly and
get
> another brand or a fresh can of the same.
>
> Larry
>
>

>stoutman wrote:
>
>> Do most people hate finishing? I love woodworking, but HATE finishing more
>> and more with every project. Does it get easier? Will I grow to love it

Use Waterlox and it becomes far less onerous and the finished results
are most attractive. Waterlox is akin to the "Danish" oils, but in my
mind, have significantly more resins so it builds a finish that can be
rubbed out. I apply Waterlox with a rag, so no need for expensive
brushes or the hapless chore of cleaning brushes.

Waterlox is not sold in a few states because of VOC requirements -
including the two states I have lived in, Mass and NJ. However, it's
easy to smuggle it in.

As a side note, but an important one, what's with trying to make Mike
G become a bad guy? He is a longtime CONTRIBUTOR and has shared his
knowledge with this group and to anyone looking for some help. If you
want someone to drive away, do it to those whose contributions are
mainly pseudo-folksy.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 02:09:24 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> scribbled:

>Either way, it's pretty clear that all shiny, glassy looking coatings could
>be called "varnish" by speakers of the American dialect of the English
>language all the way up until 2002. I don't think you have a leg to stand
>on with respect to the distinction you're trying to make. Perhaps it would
>be less ambiguous to use the term "spirit varnish" to refer to varnishes
>that are neither lacquer nor shellac.

But "spirit" originally referred to alcohol and only later got applied
to other brain-cell destroying volatile liquids. So shellac would be a
spirit varnish. Despite the dictionary definitions, I go for Mike's
definition where varnish is a combo of various oils, solvents and
resins. IIRC, Flexner also uses the word varnish this way, and Flexner
is inerrant holy scripture.

Just checked my "Woodworker's dictionary" by Vic Taylor:

Varnishes: There are two principal types of varnish, namely spirit
varnish, and oil varnish. Spirit varnishes are usually made from
shellac dissolved in spirit . . . Old-style oil varnishes were a
solution of natural resins in a drying oil . . . Modern oil varnishes
are usually compounded from tung and/or linseed oil, and alkyd or
phenolic resins . . .

But that's a Brit definition.

>Hey, not that I really care. I'm just a bored language weenie, so don't get
>bent out of shape over this.

Me too, except for the bored part.

Luigi
Note the new email address.
Please adjust your krillfiles (tmAD) accordingly
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 06:45:31 GMT, "stoutman" <.@.> wrote:

>Mike,
>
>Just a little advise. Is it really a good idea to create posts like this
>when you SIGN each of your messages with your BUSINESS?? Not good business
>practice/advertising.
>
>Furthermore, your web page has your phone number associated with it. Ever
>heard of reverse look up?? Lot of crackpots read and post here. Be
>careful. This is not a threat, but rather advise.
>
Not to worry.
All the crackpots in this group have been holding their weekly meetings at
Mike's house for years.
Mike is the Grand Crackpot.:)


>
>
>"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Mmmm, how to put this
>>
>> Fuck you ought to do it just fine.
>>
>> I know exactly what the original poster was asking and I know he's a smart
>> ass with a year and a half of woodworking and he read some stuff on the
>> homestead site and thinks it makes him an expert.
>>
>> Your so fuckiing smart you answer him.
>>
>> --
>> Mike G.
>> [email protected]
>> Heirloom Woods
>> www.heirloom-woods.net
>> "Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>...
>> > > Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but,
>with
>> > > your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
>> > caused the failure.
>>
>>
>

"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:RaQUb.187119$5V2.967440@attbi_s53...
> I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time I
> have tried to finish this piece. > "Young_carpenter"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I can think of one big reason
> > Ok two
> > The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would help)
> news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> > > I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint
dye
> > > stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol

-----lots of snippage above-----------
FWIW, when I use the water based dyes I always wait overnight for it to dry
then hit the high spots very lightly with a 3M 220 sanding sponge to get rid
of those wood wiskers. Then I lay on a light coat of 1 lb shellac, let that
dry and sand lightly with the sponge. Then I apply thinned poly(with HVLP)
sanding lightly between coats. IIWY I would toss that can of poly and get
another brand or a fresh can of the same.

Larry

or maybe in your case you could substitute "wife" with "boyfriend".


"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:FHXUb.187291$Rc4.1447869@attbi_s54...
> Way to go Mike. I wouldn't expect any less of you. you are really
showing
> these folks your true colors!!
>
> Hay Mike, why don't you go kick your dog around or something? Might make
> you feel better about yourself. At least for a little while anyway right?
>
> If no dog, the wife should do just fine.
>
>
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Mmmm, how to put this
> >
> > Fuck you ought to do it just fine.
> >
> > I know exactly what the original poster was asking and I know he's a
smart
> > ass with a year and a half of woodworking and he read some stuff on the
> > homestead site and thinks it makes him an expert.
> >
> > Your so fuckiing smart you answer him.
> >
> > --
> > Mike G.
> > [email protected]
> > Heirloom Woods
> > www.heirloom-woods.net
> > "Larry Bud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but,
> with
> > > > your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why are you being such a jackass? The OP was ASKING what could have
> > > caused the failure.
> >
> >
>
>

Ah as soon as you mentioned about rotting the brain ,that accounts for
it........mjh

--




"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I used Deft many years ago and hated it due to the fumes. I applied it
> outside and still got zonked by it. I used it on an unfinished stereo
> cabinet and stuck my head into the interior while brushing it on. It
> clears the sinuses and rots the brain. It's a concoction of lacquer and
> other junk to allow it to be brushed on. "Nasty" doesn't do it justice.
> Wear a respirator if you choose to use it.
>
> dave
>
> stoutman wrote:
>
> > I sanded it between coats with 320 grit lightly. This is the third time
I
> > have tried to finish this piece. The first time I used wipe-on poly all
> > over the table. On the top I had 4-5 coats. I rubbed out the top with
4F
> > pumice and cut through. I had to resand and restain the top. But I
didn't
> > wipe the poly on again (never again on a top!). I foam brushed it on
and
> > used a higher ratio of poly to mineral spirits.
> >
> > I think next time I am gonna try Deft brush on lacquer. The guy at
> > woodcraft raves about it. Anyone have any with this stuff?
> >
> >
> > "Young_carpenter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>I can think of one big reason
> >>Ok two
> >>The dye wasn't long enough to sit and dry. (at least 4 hours would help)
> >>An you didn't mention sanding between Poly coats. 24 hours is a long
time
> >>in the poly realm to recoat and not sand. 4-6 hours might be ok but not
> >
> > 24,
> >
> >>especially since at 50:50 the drying/curing time for poly goes down
> >>considerably (experience talking here).
> >>
> >>--
> >>Young Carpenter
> >>
> >>"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
> >>plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"
> >>
> >>{Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
> >>
> >>--
> >>
> >>
> >>"stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
> >
> > news:N7HUb.183466$Rc4.1373109@attbi_s54...
> >
> >>>I made a maple table a while back and I finished it with Trans Tint dye
> >>>stain (liquid water based). I diluted the dye with isopropyl alcohol
> >
> > per
> >
> >>>the instructions on the container. I applied the stain with a rag and
> >
> > let
> >
> >>>dry about 30 minutes or so. I next applied my polyurethane sealer coat
> >>>(50:50 poly:mineral spirits) followed by several more coats with 24
> >
> > hours
> >
> >>in
> >>
> >>>between coats.
> >>>
> >>>The finish has cured for 3 weeks now and the table was being used. I
> >>>noticed a small discoloration in the center of the table tonight which
I
> >>>thought was dried milk. (my son who is 1.5 years old had his milk cup
> >
> > on
> >
> >>it
> >>
> >>>earlier today) I scratched what I thought was milk with my finger nail
> >>
> >>from
> >>
> >>>the surface of the table, but it wasn't dried milk. The discoloration
> >>
> >>was
> >>
> >>>actually a section of poly that had lifted from the surface of the
> >
> > table.
> >
> >>>When I scratched it with my finger nail, it spread into a MUCH larger
> >>
> >>area.
> >>
> >>>I cant tell for sure but I think it went down to bare wood (not just an
> >>>outer layer pealing off).
> >>>
> >>>I need to resand the entire top and restain. And refinish with poly.
> >>
> >>What
> >>
> >>>a big f---en pain in the a--.
> >>>
> >>>Why did this happen? I think it may have to do with not letting the
> >>
> >>stain
> >>
> >>>dry (alcohol) enough before applying the poly, but I'm not sure. You
> >
> > can
> >
> >>>put an oil based poly over a water based stain, right?
> >>>
> >>>I think I have had it with poly. I am either thinking about giving the
> >>
> >>poly
> >>
> >>>(minwax) one more try or I am gonna apply lacquer (Deft brush on) on
the
> >>>top.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

I echo what CCbob says . Find a finishing product you like and learn to use
it . Develop a procedure you go through each time you are ready to do
finishing , that way you minimize surprises and come out with a satisfactory
result 9 times out of ten.

Then after a while when you get reasonably proficient you will get to the
point where you can't wait to finish the item to see what it is going to
look like, and what's more you will know beforehand how good it's going to
look ....mjh

--




"Cape Cod Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >stoutman wrote:
> >
> >> Do most people hate finishing? I love woodworking, but HATE finishing
more
> >> and more with every project. Does it get easier? Will I grow to love
it
>
> Use Waterlox and it becomes far less onerous and the finished results
> are most attractive. Waterlox is akin to the "Danish" oils, but in my
> mind, have significantly more resins so it builds a finish that can be
> rubbed out. I apply Waterlox with a rag, so no need for expensive
> brushes or the hapless chore of cleaning brushes.
>
> Waterlox is not sold in a few states because of VOC requirements -
> including the two states I have lived in, Mass and NJ. However, it's
> easy to smuggle it in.
>
> As a side note, but an important one, what's with trying to make Mike
> G become a bad guy? He is a longtime CONTRIBUTOR and has shared his
> knowledge with this group and to anyone looking for some help. If you
> want someone to drive away, do it to those whose contributions are
> mainly pseudo-folksy.

Luigi Zanasi wrote:

>>would be less ambiguous to use the term "spirit varnish" to refer to
>>varnishes that are neither lacquer nor shellac.
>
> But "spirit" originally referred to alcohol and only later got applied
> to other brain-cell destroying volatile liquids. So shellac would be a
> spirit varnish. Despite the dictionary definitions, I go for Mike's

Yeah, you're right about that for sure. Spirit = booze. Where on earth did
that come from anyway, etymologically?

As for the rest, I'll just shut up about it and go blather somewhere
else. :)

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Interesting... but Varnish is a generic term. Shellac and lacquer can
be
> > considered varnishes.
>
> I'm not sure where you came up with that but the only part I can agree
with
> is that varnish is a generic term in that any finish made up of a curing
> oil, resins and a carrier/thinner can be considered a varnish. And, of
> course, neither shellac or lacquer meets that criteria.

> Further varnish is a reactive curing finish and both shellac and lacquer
> cure through evaporation of their thinner/solvent.
>
> Finally, both shellac and lacquer, when cured, have solvents which also
acts
> as their thinner, alcohol and lacquer thinner respectively. Cured varnish
> has no solvents. The thinner, usually mineral spirits, has no dissolving
> effect on cured varnish.nor does alcohol or lacquer thinner.
>
> So, I'm sure you can see why I more then a little problem with your
> statement and can not see where the properties of shellac and alcohol fit
in
> under the generic term of varnish.

Actualluy a varnish is, A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or
evaporating binder, used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent
film. The type of parts used in the mix need not be any specific one except
to perform a specific function.

Additionally, Shellac is defined as
1. A purified lac in the form of thin yellow or orange flakes, often
bleached white and widely used in varnishes, paints, inks, sealants, and
formerly in phonograph records.
2. A thin varnish made by dissolving this substance in denatured alcohol,
used to finish wood.a thin varnish made by dissolving this substance in
denatured alcohol, used to finish wood.


> As for the gel varnish example, well, it's meaningless and proves nothing.
> You can build up any spots in any surface finish by applying more. That
> does not mean it is melding with the previous coat, which it isn't in the
> example you give to justify the statement that shellac and lacquer falls
> under the term varnish.

The proof is how I repair or remove thick spots that I over looked.
No actually the rough spot softens and can be rubbed off with a single rag
stroke or scraped off with your finger nail if the fresh gel is left to set
a bit on top of the problem area.


> Gel varnish fills the hole better and faster because it has less shrinkage
> then what you would get trying to do it with a liquid varnish but that
> doesn't mean it is burning into the previous coats.

Again, if for example and specifically concerning Bartley's gel varnish if
you leave a finger print on the first coat and let it dry for a day ot two
you can reapply more gel varnish to that spot and that spot will soften and
can esaily be rubbed away. Rub enough times with a fresh spot on the rag
and you can almost get back down to bare wood. Additionally Bartley's Gel
Varnish specifically indicates no need or not to sand between coats.

Dave,

Mike is mad at me and just want to taunt me with is extensive knowledge on
refinishing. Granted, he has more experience than me, and probably knows
more than me about woodworking and finishing, as do most people on this NG,
but I think he is a little nutty. :)



Do most people hate finishing? I love woodworking, but HATE finishing more
and more with every project. Does it get easier? Will I grow to love it?


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> and those possible reasons are?
>
> dave
>
> Mike G wrote:
> > Well, I can think of several possible reasons for the failure, but, with
> > your vast year and a half of experience I'm sure you know them all.
> >
>