Ping: Larry Jaques - Re plate Joiner

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>>
>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>> one with a reliable fence.
>>
>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>
>> Bill
>
>Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.

I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
really like and use them.

Mike M

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:16:28 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>the cart before the horse IMHO.

Yeah, I have to agree with that. I really like my Domino, but for me a
tablesaw is the first, highest requirement. I got along a number of
years without a Domino, but a tablesaw has *always* been along for the
ride in one form or another.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:25:37 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 10/28/2012 5:36 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>>>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>>>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>>>> one with a reliable fence.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>
>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
>> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
>> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
>> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
>> really like and use them.
>
>Agree there, having both the PC 557 and the Domino, choosing the Domino
>over the PC 557 is like choosing square drive over straight. I keep the
>PC557 as there are odd times when I need a narrow moon shaped slot, like
>for a desk drawer lock with the swinging arm that needs to turn into a slot.

I'll have to remember that use.

Mike M

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:21:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 10/28/2012 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>> one with a reliable fence.
>>
>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
>Most all better brand companies these days make a good plate joiner.
>The PC 557 is probably the majority choice. And I have that one too.

Did you choose it because it came with the extra cutter and finish
bisquits for only a bit more money? Besides it being a high quality
tool, of course.

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

On 10/30/2012 9:49 PM, Bill wrote:

> With regard to what you said, concerning "joining" tools, I added a $21
> (router) slot cutter to my Amazon wish list. That tool suggestion surely
> saved me close to $200 for the time being. I think the tool is quite
> adequate for "where I am at" too.
>
> I can have a lot of fun with a pencil. I just can't cut a dado with one.

Pay attention, Bubba ... _The Man_ himself speaks!!

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30187

Note the technique that Norm uses to mount face frames to casework using
biscuits and a slot cutter, as Lew suggested.

What he doesn't mention is that this technique allows you to adjust the
FF position, similar to what Leon was saying about making the Domino
mortises a little wider in length to gain some "wiggle room" in fitting
the parts together.

Disclaimer ... I do not use this method of attaching FF's, but do not
have a problem with recommending it if it suits your needs.

(I prefer the dado in the FF method because it allows me to concentrate
on building a very square FF, then assembling the cabinet casework on
top of that guaranteed square FF, insuring a SQUARE cabinet ... making
drawers, doors, and hardware much easier to install overall, and saving
me enough time to make a profit on the job)

YMMV ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 10/28/2012 6:08 PM, Swingman wrote:

>
> I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
> timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
> made in who knows where.

Nothing against the Makita as I have no experience with it. I bought
the PC557 a number of years aqo not because I needed it at the time, but
because I WANTED one<g>

It sat in the shop watching all kinds of projects but rarely was called
off the bench. I think I may have used it for its intended purpose
three or four times making up some cabinet face frames and it performed
as expected. The quality and finish was top notch and I would not
hesitate to purchase it all over again... because


> Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
> of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
> blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
> face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
> frequently than you would suspect at first blush.

Among its hidden talents which I discovered out of desperation (seeking
to find an EASY way to undercut door jambs as I was installing a new
kitchen floor) is just that: undercutting door jambs for flooring.

It is WONDERFUL at that task. With the fence/blade set at its lowest
level it's "just right" for laminate flooring, such as Pergo, et al.
Going with 3/4" wood or machined hardwood, etc. just make a spacer plate
out of plywood and use the adjustment on the PC557 to fine tune it from
"close" to PERFECT.

RE: Subject.

A PC690, a couple of fly cutters and a 5/32" straight bit eliminated
any consideration of a plate joiner for me.

Lew

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

*snip*

> It just doesn't get much more exciting than learning about a new tool
> you can put to use. Even seeing an old one that someone else put to
> use is pretty interesting! Tool with the most bank for the buck?
> Easy...a pencil.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>

Just make sure to get yourself a good pencil sharpener. I went with a
manual one that you mount on the wall and use it on average about twice a
week.

Used to use a knife before that, and while it worked it was a hassle and
took a couple of minutes versus less than 30 seconds with the sharpener.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Swingman" wrote:

> What Lew surely meant to say was a "slot cutter":
----------------------------------------------------
Mea Culpa.

Yep, "slot cutter" it is.

Lew

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

> Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Does not, cannot cut straight.

Have you tried a good one? I've got a Bosch that cuts straight (against a
fence) or cuts curves easily. If it doesn't follow the line, it's *my*
fault, not that of the tool.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

""[email protected]" wrote:

> Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Does not, cannot cut straight.
----------------------------------------------------
My guess is you have never used a Bosch with a Bosch bimetal blade.

Lew
-------------------------------------------------------

Puckdropper" wrote:

> Have you tried a good one? I've got a Bosch that cuts straight
> (against a
> fence) or cuts curves easily. If it doesn't follow the line, it's
> *my*
> fault, not that of the tool.
------------------------------------------------------------

"Swingman" wrote:

> I'm going with Leon, Dave and others who mentioned this ... add that
> $199 to the kitty and get a Festool Domino ... I can almost
> guarantee that your ability to do the woodworking projects of your
> dreams will take a GIANT leap forward.
>
> No kidding ...
-----------------------------------------------------
Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
the cart before the horse IMHO.

Lew

Leon, wrote the following at or about 10/30/2012 8:04 AM:
> Yeah, biscuits appear to be stamped out, the edges do not appear to be
> milled or cut. I also find them to be inconsistent in thickness, I
> often found that some fit the same hole too loosely or too tightly.

IIRC the biscuit ARE stamped AND compressed. This is built-in
functionality, I'm told. Do your dry fit, then add the glue, insert
biscuits and clamp up the assembly. They will swell slightly to provide
a tight fit.

This is one reason you don't use them close to the finished edge as that
swelling will "telegraph" through.

That you find some are too loose or too snug could merely be a sign of
the ambient conditions under which they were stored.


> Toss in that a proper depth biscuit slot is much wider than the biscuit
> and that the biscuit alignment on only good for up and down. Side to
> side is a no go.

Dominoes would sure cure that, I suspect<g>

Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>> the cart before the horse IMHO.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Swingman" wrote:

> I disagree, and from a strong personal experience.
>
> Both my grandfathers built and furnished their entire homes, from
> the ground up, without a table saw.
>
> I worked for a cabinetmaker in England who's family made cabinets
> and furniture for 200 years without a table saw.
>
> I personally made many of my own household furnishing for 30 years
> before I ever owned a table saw, much less a decent one.
-----------------------------------------------------
And the Amish only use hand power on the job site; however,
they do use tablesaws powered from stationary power in the shop.

Being a "Normite", give me a good table saw with a great fence,
a good dado set with a sacrifical fence and I'm happy.

Lew

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> I have a top handle Bosch and a barrel grip Festool jigsaws. So I
> might be able to argue no one in the world has higher end jigsaws than
> me. Neither can cut straight. The cut in the wood is not 90 degrees.
> Its angled. The blade bends in the wood. Made the mistake of
> cutting off the bottom of a door with the Bosch. Not straight in the
> wood. Should have, could have used the Festool track saw. Why I
> didn't, I don't know. If I could get my money back for both jigsaws,
> I would.
>

Sounds like too much forward pressure on the blade. If the blade is pushed
through too fast, it will bend in the wood. Slow down and let it cut.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

<[email protected]> wrote:

I have a top handle Bosch and a barrel grip Festool jigsaws. So I
might be able to argue no one in the world has higher end jigsaws than
me. Neither can cut straight. The cut in the wood is not 90 degrees.
Its angled. The blade bends in the wood. Made the mistake of cutting
off the bottom of a door with the Bosch. Not straight in the wood.
Should have, could have used the Festool track saw. Why I didn't, I
don't know. If I could get my money back for both jigsaws, I would.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like you are trying to force feed the saw.

Try using a Bosch bi-metal blade and let the saw do the work.

Might be surprised at the results you get.

Lew

On 10/29/2012 8:16 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> I'm going with Leon, Dave and others who mentioned this ... add that
>> $199 to the kitty and get a Festool Domino ... I can almost
>> guarantee that your ability to do the woodworking projects of your
>> dreams will take a GIANT leap forward.
>>
>> No kidding ...
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
> the cart before the horse IMHO.

He can easily make do with a quality track saw at the fraction of the
cost of a like quality TS.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:49:11 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike M wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:40:50 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike M wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:11:10 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:16:28 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>>>> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>>>>>> the cart before the horse IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I have to agree with that. I really like my Domino, but for me a
>>>>> tablesaw is the first, highest requirement. I got along a number of
>>>>> years without a Domino, but a tablesaw has *always* been along for the
>>>>> ride in one form or another.
>>>>
>>>> Swingman made a good point about considering the bandsaw as the first
>>>> choice. I prefer having both, but for someone just starting to obtain
>>>> tools, they need to consider what they will be trying to do.
>>>
>>> I will be trying to be a craftsman.
>>>
>>> I've read several of the books that Paul N. Hasluck co-wrote/edited. I
>>> may build a chicken coop with Acanthus leaves and floral ornamentation
>>> carved on the outside. I might pound some nails and string some wires,
>>> and pluck the strings like a banjo or guitar...
>>>
>>> Is one supposed to start with chickens or eggs? I may have to go with
>>> Festool if the they don't like my shopvac...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Unfortunately we all have to deal with some kind of budget.
>>>>
>>>> Mike M
>>>>
>> Bill everyone is giving ;you suggestions on what they learned. Right
>> or wrong it is for you decide what works for you. You make the best
>> decision for you.
>
>Yes, I appreciate that. I was just having a little fun with more prior
>post--but I meant the part about "craftsman".

vs Crapsman?


>With regard to what you said, concerning "joining" tools, I added a $21
>(router) slot cutter to my Amazon wish list. That tool suggestion surely
>saved me close to $200 for the time being. I think the tool is quite

I grabbed the HF set one day, before I bought a bisquicker. They're a
bother, comparatively, but for under $8... It's saved for splines.
http://www.harborfreight.com/three-wing-slotting-cutters-3-pack-42133.html


>adequate for "where I am at" too.

Where "at" is you, anyway?


>I can have a lot of fun with a pencil. I just can't cut a dado with one.

They really have to be spinning to achieve that.

--
It is easier to fool people than it is to
convince people that they have been fooled.
--Mark Twain

> A TS is on the horizon.
>
> BTW, I didn't say I was ready to run out and buy a Domino, just that I
> was going to learn a little more about them. I was serious though about
> the biscuit cutter and a jigsaw (I didn't mention the latter).
>
> Bill

Get the table saw immediately. Before anything else. You use it for dimensioning plywood and cutting solid wood. Table saw is used to cut everything.

Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Does not, cannot cut straight.

I have the DeWalt plate joiner. Its good. I think its the best plate joiner available. I use it for edge joining boards to form panels. Great for that. Also edge joins plywood.

But, if I did not have a plate joiner or the Domino, I would likely get just the Domino. It can do what the plate joiner does for me, edge join boards, and do much more.

On Monday, October 29, 2012 2:44:00 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> ""[email protected]" wrote: > Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Doe=
s not, cannot cut straight. -----------------------------------------------=
----- My guess is you have never used a Bosch with a Bosch bimetal blade. L=
ew ------------------------------------------------------- Puckdropper" wro=
te: > Have you tried a good one? I've got a Bosch that cuts straight > (aga=
inst a > fence) or cuts curves easily. If it doesn't follow the line, it's =
> *my* > fault, not that of the tool. -------------------------------------=
-----------------------


I have a top handle Bosch and a barrel grip Festool jigsaws. So I might be=
able to argue no one in the world has higher end jigsaws than me. Neither=
can cut straight. The cut in the wood is not 90 degrees. Its angled. Th=
e blade bends in the wood. Made the mistake of cutting off the bottom of a=
door with the Bosch. Not straight in the wood. Should have, could have u=
sed the Festool track saw. Why I didn't, I don't know. If I could get my =
money back for both jigsaws, I would.

On 10/28/2012 7:40 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 10/28/2012 5:36 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
>>> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
>>> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
>>> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
>>> really like and use them.
>>
>> I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
>> timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
>> made in who knows where.
>>
>> Basically I use mine only for gluing up flat panels and reinforcing
>> miter joints on wide frames, but, and not having a Domino (not worth
>> breaking out the Multi-Router for something the 557 can do) it's not
>> something I would like to be without.
>
> I'm sorry to hear that.. ; )
>
>>
>> Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
>> of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
>> blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
>> face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
>> frequently than you would suspect at first blush.
>
> One of the many reviews I read, said "be aware that they dropped the
> price by $20 and stopped including the extra blade, which they sell for
> $34". The current situation (at Amazon) is that the tool is $207 with
> only the standard 4" blade.
>
> The P-C 557 was surely on my "short list" (which I haven't quite had for
> 24 hours yet). I pondered that maybe it was better to buy a tool that
> has been upgraded more recently, but maybe I have that backwards! P-C
> surely isn't the label is used to be.
>
> You mentioned the smaller biscuits (size "FF"). They sound handy for
> "alignment" purposes.
>
> I'm going to try to work with some of that Formaldehyde-free
> ("Purebond") plywood and see if I can do so without experiencing
> allergic reactions. If so, then I'll procede with this.
>
> It took a long time for the biscuit joiner to make it into my radar
> screen...much like the "impact driver" did this summer. Gosh, what next!
> It just doesn't get much more exciting than learning about a new tool
> you can put to use. Even seeing an old one that someone else put to
> use is pretty interesting! Tool with the most bank for the buck?
> Easy...a pencil.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>

I used to use a lot of biscuits or so I thought. Save up and get the
Domino. Yes 3 times more expensive but you will use it at least 5 times
more than the plate joiner. ;~) I have had my Domino for about 5 years
now and have probably used 3~4 thousand Dominoes. In the 23 years that
I have a plate joiner I have not use half that many biscuits.

I get way more bang for my buck with the Domino that I did with either
of my plate joiners.

On 10/28/2012 6:39 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 6:08 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
>> timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
>> made in who knows where.
>
> Nothing against the Makita as I have no experience with it. I bought
> the PC557 a number of years aqo not because I needed it at the time, but
> because I WANTED one<g>
>
> It sat in the shop watching all kinds of projects but rarely was called
> off the bench. I think I may have used it for its intended purpose
> three or four times making up some cabinet face frames and it performed
> as expected. The quality and finish was top notch and I would not
> hesitate to purchase it all over again... because
>
>
>> Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
>> of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
>> blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
>> face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
>> frequently than you would suspect at first blush.
>
> Among its hidden talents which I discovered out of desperation (seeking
> to find an EASY way to undercut door jambs as I was installing a new
> kitchen floor) is just that: undercutting door jambs for flooring.
>
> It is WONDERFUL at that task. With the fence/blade set at its lowest
> level it's "just right" for laminate flooring, such as Pergo, et al.
> Going with 3/4" wood or machined hardwood, etc. just make a spacer plate
> out of plywood and use the adjustment on the PC557 to fine tune it from
> "close" to PERFECT.
>
>
>
>
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, good to know!

On 10/28/2012 5:36 PM, Mike M wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>>> one with a reliable fence.
>>>
>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>
> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
> really like and use them.

Agree there, having both the PC 557 and the Domino, choosing the Domino
over the PC 557 is like choosing square drive over straight. I keep the
PC557 as there are odd times when I need a narrow moon shaped slot, like
for a desk drawer lock with the swinging arm that needs to turn into a slot.

On 10/29/2012 10:57 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:05:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I buy biscuits by the box, 6 bag boxes. I get them, 1800, for about
>> $80. so about 4.4 cents each. I used to pay $30 for 1000 biscuits, or
>> .3 cents each. The price difference is not a factor. The quality of
>> the 5mm domino over the biscuit is.
>
> At a guess, I'd think that biscuits are stamped out and easier to make
> than Dominos. But they cost more and it's like many other things that
> are priced inordinately high. They will take you for whatever the
> market will bear.
>

Yeah, biscuits appear to be stamped out, the edges do not appear to be
milled or cut. I also find them to be inconsistent in thickness, I
often found that some fit the same hole too loosely or too tightly.

Toss in that a proper depth biscuit slot is much wider than the biscuit
and that the biscuit alignment on only good for up and down. Side to
side is a no go.

On 10/28/2012 11:23 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Mike M wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you
>>>>>> have a plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I
>>>>>> hope that you'll share with me which one you are using. I'm trying
>>>>>> to make sure I choose one with a reliable fence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>>>
>>>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>>>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there
>>>> I would be more worried about not being able to remember what
>>>> happened to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better
>>>> luck with pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion
>>>> others may really like and use them.
>>>
>>> Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
>>> little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
>>> "heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!
>>>
>>
>> I like the looks of the Domino and will probably buy one at some
>> point, but
>> where you are Bill, I'd encourage you to consider a table saw first.
>> It's a
>> matter of owning the tools that will allow you to take advantage of other
>> tools - and of course, to do the basic forms of work even if they are a
>> little more longhand than what the cooler things might enable down the
>> road.
>> A Domino on a shitty cut made by a circular saw or a jig saw isn't
>> going to
>> offer one single bit of benefit. On the other hand, a good cut made on a
>> table saw can be joined in a multitude of ways - Domino or no Domino. If
>> you buy the cooler tools first, you'll end up with tools on your shelf
>> that
>> you really can't take advantage of.
>>
>
> A TS is on the horizon. I need to finish my drywall, painting, and
> lighting renovations first. At least the first two. It's not convenient
> to introduce a TS in the shop while I have everything "stack up" into
> the middle of its centre (i.e. away from the walls). In the meantime, at
> least I can work at my workbench.

I agree that the TS is fore most the tool that should come first. A
plate jointer and or Domino will not allow good results unless you have
perfect cuts that a TS will allow you to make.



>
> BTW, I didn't say I was ready to run out and buy a Domino, just that I
> was going to learn a little more about them. I was serious though about
> the biscuit cutter and a jigsaw (I didn't mention the latter).

If you even think you will get a Domino save the Plate joiner money to
go towards that. There is no more learning curve with the Domino than
any other plate joiner, they essentially operate the same way. So you
don't learn on one and graduate to the other to begin the learning over.
The Domino just does a heck of a lot more than a plate joiner. I
strongly suspect that once the patent on the Domino expires and other
begin building the tool plate joiner will disappear.




>
> Lew's comments about using a 5/32" straight bit wasn't lost on me either
> (I still need to look up "fly cutters". That's my next search.)

In a pinch but that will do, but a PIA, especially if you want to place
slots in the middle of the face of a board. Then you have to change to
a straight bit and clamp on a fence and plunge cut the slots.




>
> I can't do drywall work during the current season, so I just have to do
> what I can do. Gaining insight counts for alot (to me), and I picked up
> a fair amount of that this weekend--for sure!
>
> Bill

On 10/28/2012 5:36 PM, Mike M wrote:
> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
> really like and use them.

I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
made in who knows where.

Basically I use mine only for gluing up flat panels and reinforcing
miter joints on wide frames, but, and not having a Domino (not worth
breaking out the Multi-Router for something the 557 can do) it's not
something I would like to be without.

Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
frequently than you would suspect at first blush.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 10/29/2012 5:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> I just happened to see the 557 at Menards today, for $199 including the
> extra 2" blade for "FF" biscuits.

I'm going with Leon, Dave and others who mentioned this ... add that
$199 to the kitty and get a Festool Domino ... I can almost guarantee
that your ability to do the woodworking projects of your dreams will
take a GIANT leap forward.

No kidding ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 10/30/2012 12:18 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> Leon, wrote the following at or about 10/30/2012 8:04 AM:
>> Yeah, biscuits appear to be stamped out, the edges do not appear to be
>> milled or cut. I also find them to be inconsistent in thickness, I
>> often found that some fit the same hole too loosely or too tightly.
>
> IIRC the biscuit ARE stamped AND compressed. This is built-in
> functionality, I'm told. Do your dry fit, then add the glue, insert
> biscuits and clamp up the assembly. They will swell slightly to provide
> a tight fit.
>
> This is one reason you don't use them close to the finished edge as that
> swelling will "telegraph" through.
>
> That you find some are too loose or too snug could merely be a sign of
> the ambient conditions under which they were stored.

One would think but the loose ones and the tight ones and the correct
fit ones all come from the same bag stored in the same Tupperware
container. I never have this issue with solid wood tenons.







>
>> Toss in that a proper depth biscuit slot is much wider than the biscuit
>> and that the biscuit alignment on only good for up and down. Side to
>> side is a no go.
>
> Dominoes would sure cure that, I suspect<g>

They can if necessary, the Domino will cut a mortise to exact width and
thickness. More often than not however I set the Domino to cut a
mortise that is slightly wider so that mortise placement is not too
critical to give me a touch of wiggle room. IIRC with a biscuit you
could probably have as much as 3/8" wiggle room like it or not.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:05:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>I buy biscuits by the box, 6 bag boxes. I get them, 1800, for about
>$80. so about 4.4 cents each. I used to pay $30 for 1000 biscuits, or
>.3 cents each. The price difference is not a factor. The quality of
>the 5mm domino over the biscuit is.

At a guess, I'd think that biscuits are stamped out and easier to make
than Dominos. But they cost more and it's like many other things that
are priced inordinately high. They will take you for whatever the
market will bear.

On 11/1/2012 7:12 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>>
>> I have a top handle Bosch and a barrel grip Festool jigsaws. So I
>> might be able to argue no one in the world has higher end jigsaws than
>> me. Neither can cut straight. The cut in the wood is not 90 degrees.
>> Its angled. The blade bends in the wood. Made the mistake of
>> cutting off the bottom of a door with the Bosch. Not straight in the
>> wood. Should have, could have used the Festool track saw. Why I
>> didn't, I don't know. If I could get my money back for both jigsaws,
>> I would.
>>
>
> Sounds like too much forward pressure on the blade. If the blade is pushed
> through too fast, it will bend in the wood. Slow down and let it cut.
>
> Puckdropper
>

Or crap blades.

On 10/31/2012 9:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, October 29, 2012 2:44:00 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> ""[email protected]" wrote: > Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Does not, cannot cut straight. ---------------------------------------------------- My guess is you have never used a Bosch with a Bosch bimetal blade. Lew ------------------------------------------------------- Puckdropper" wrote: > Have you tried a good one? I've got a Bosch that cuts straight > (against a > fence) or cuts curves easily. If it doesn't follow the line, it's > *my* > fault, not that of the tool. ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I have a top handle Bosch and a barrel grip Festool jigsaws. So I might be able to argue no one in the world has higher end jigsaws than me. Neither can cut straight. The cut in the wood is not 90 degrees. Its angled. The blade bends in the wood. Made the mistake of cutting off the bottom of a door with the Bosch. Not straight in the wood. Should have, could have used the Festool track saw. Why I didn't, I don't know. If I could get my money back for both jigsaws, I would.
>


Absolutely sounds like OE or you have crap for blades. I have had a
Milwaukee jig saw for 10 plus years now and I have to be very careful
to double check the cut ends of my oak boards to determine whether they
were cut with my WWII of my jig saw. I get no tear out, square to
square cuts and the ends of the board are typically burnished smooth.

You probably need to switch to a better blade, Bosch for instance.

On 10/28/2012 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
> one with a reliable fence.
>
> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>
> Bill


Most all better brand companies these days make a good plate joiner.
The PC 557 is probably the majority choice. And I have that one too.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 17:35:27 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>one with a reliable fence.

I have the less-precise HF version, but it works OK. I keep
threatening to tear it down and put a simple shim washer in there to
make it perform better, but never seem to get around to it. Maybe
this winter... The plate has slop so I get wider-than-required
biscuit holes. Then again, it was $150 cheaper than the others and I
seldom use it. I learned to leave the power on while removing it and
it cuts only 0.010" wide that way, and biscuits swell that much.
They're on sale for $45 today. <wink>

I have a Makita 4-1/2" angle grinder and an HF grinder. Both are
great.

The more I use the Makita SP6001K plunge saw, the more I like it. I
sold Dina and will use the little Makita and my portable 10" table saw
in the future. Between the two, she should be replaced OK. The new
owner will be picking it up sometime this next week. He's a high-
volume Old Tool owner from Woodburn, up by Portland, OR.

Here's a truly lousy bisquick review:
http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tools/reviews/more/biscuit-joiners-tool/
They hate every single model. <g>

How about a used DeWally for $120?

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

Bill wrote:
>
> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
> one with a reliable fence.
>
> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>
> Bill

Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.

Swingman wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 5:36 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
>> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
>> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
>> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
>> really like and use them.
>
> I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
> timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
> made in who knows where.
>
> Basically I use mine only for gluing up flat panels and reinforcing
> miter joints on wide frames, but, and not having a Domino (not worth
> breaking out the Multi-Router for something the 557 can do) it's not
> something I would like to be without.

I'm sorry to hear that.. ; )

>
> Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
> of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
> blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
> face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
> frequently than you would suspect at first blush.

One of the many reviews I read, said "be aware that they dropped the
price by $20 and stopped including the extra blade, which they sell for
$34". The current situation (at Amazon) is that the tool is $207 with
only the standard 4" blade.

The P-C 557 was surely on my "short list" (which I haven't quite had for
24 hours yet). I pondered that maybe it was better to buy a tool that
has been upgraded more recently, but maybe I have that backwards! P-C
surely isn't the label is used to be.

You mentioned the smaller biscuits (size "FF"). They sound handy for
"alignment" purposes.

I'm going to try to work with some of that Formaldehyde-free
("Purebond") plywood and see if I can do so without experiencing
allergic reactions. If so, then I'll procede with this.

It took a long time for the biscuit joiner to make it into my radar
screen...much like the "impact driver" did this summer. Gosh, what next!
It just doesn't get much more exciting than learning about a new tool
you can put to use. Even seeing an old one that someone else put to
use is pretty interesting! Tool with the most bank for the buck?
Easy...a pencil.

Cheers,
Bill

Mike M wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>>> one with a reliable fence.
>>>
>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>
> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
> really like and use them.

Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
"heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!

Bill

>
> Mike M
>

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 6:08 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
>> timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
>> made in who knows where.
>
> Nothing against the Makita as I have no experience with it. I bought
> the PC557 a number of years aqo not because I needed it at the time, but
> because I WANTED one<g>
>
> It sat in the shop watching all kinds of projects but rarely was called
> off the bench. I think I may have used it for its intended purpose
> three or four times making up some cabinet face frames and it performed
> as expected. The quality and finish was top notch and I would not
> hesitate to purchase it all over again... because
>
>
>> Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
>> of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
>> blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
>> face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
>> frequently than you would suspect at first blush.
>
> Among its hidden talents which I discovered out of desperation (seeking
> to find an EASY way to undercut door jambs as I was installing a new
> kitchen floor) is just that: undercutting door jambs for flooring.
>
> It is WONDERFUL at that task. With the fence/blade set at its lowest
> level it's "just right" for laminate flooring, such as Pergo, et al.
> Going with 3/4" wood or machined hardwood, etc. just make a spacer plate
> out of plywood and use the adjustment on the PC557 to fine tune it from
> "close" to PERFECT.
>

We sure have our fair share of "perfectionists" around here! :)
Thanks for the lesson!

Bill wrote:
> Mike M wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you
>>>> have a plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I
>>>> hope that you'll share with me which one you are using. I'm trying
>>>> to make sure I choose one with a reliable fence.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>
>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there
>> I would be more worried about not being able to remember what
>> happened to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better
>> luck with pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion
>> others may really like and use them.
>
> Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
> little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
> "heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!
>

I like the looks of the Domino and will probably buy one at some point, but
where you are Bill, I'd encourage you to consider a table saw first. It's a
matter of owning the tools that will allow you to take advantage of other
tools - and of course, to do the basic forms of work even if they are a
little more longhand than what the cooler things might enable down the road.
A Domino on a shitty cut made by a circular saw or a jig saw isn't going to
offer one single bit of benefit. On the other hand, a good cut made on a
table saw can be joined in a multitude of ways - Domino or no Domino. If
you buy the cooler tools first, you'll end up with tools on your shelf that
you really can't take advantage of.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike M wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you
>>>>> have a plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I
>>>>> hope that you'll share with me which one you are using. I'm trying
>>>>> to make sure I choose one with a reliable fence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>>
>>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there
>>> I would be more worried about not being able to remember what
>>> happened to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better
>>> luck with pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion
>>> others may really like and use them.
>>
>> Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
>> little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
>> "heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!
>>
>
> I like the looks of the Domino and will probably buy one at some point, but
> where you are Bill, I'd encourage you to consider a table saw first. It's a
> matter of owning the tools that will allow you to take advantage of other
> tools - and of course, to do the basic forms of work even if they are a
> little more longhand than what the cooler things might enable down the road.
> A Domino on a shitty cut made by a circular saw or a jig saw isn't going to
> offer one single bit of benefit. On the other hand, a good cut made on a
> table saw can be joined in a multitude of ways - Domino or no Domino. If
> you buy the cooler tools first, you'll end up with tools on your shelf that
> you really can't take advantage of.
>

A TS is on the horizon. I need to finish my drywall, painting, and
lighting renovations first. At least the first two. It's not convenient
to introduce a TS in the shop while I have everything "stack up" into
the middle of its centre (i.e. away from the walls). In the meantime, at
least I can work at my workbench.

BTW, I didn't say I was ready to run out and buy a Domino, just that I
was going to learn a little more about them. I was serious though about
the biscuit cutter and a jigsaw (I didn't mention the latter).

Lew's comments about using a 5/32" straight bit wasn't lost on me either
(I still need to look up "fly cutters". That's my next search.)

I can't do drywall work during the current season, so I just have to do
what I can do. Gaining insight counts for alot (to me), and I picked up
a fair amount of that this weekend--for sure!

Bill

Leon wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>> one with a reliable fence.
>>
>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> Most all better brand companies these days make a good plate joiner. The
> PC 557 is probably the majority choice. And I have that one too.

I just happened to see the 557 at Menards today, for $199 including the
extra 2" blade for "FF" biscuits. They didn't have any plain 'ole 5/32"
slot cutters for a router. I noticed that there doesn't appear to be a
dramatic difference in size between 0, 10 and 20 size biscuits.
They only had artificial biscuits made in China, so I passed.
I'm looking for home-cooked Beech biscuits! : )

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> I see that the shop is your "bow saur project", Bill. <giggle>
>

It's getting there. Who would have thought (it would take so long)...

It didn't help that I ripped down part of a wall last summer to replace
a 2-switch box with a 3-switch box. Some people would have let it go... ;)

Swingman wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 11:23 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> (I still need to look up "fly cutters". That's my next search.)
>
> Don't bother, it will just confuse you. To use a "fly cutter" in lieu of
> a plate jointer to cut biscuit slots would not get you very far.
>
> What Lew surely meant to say was a "slot cutter":
>
> http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtslot.htm
>
> Fly Cutter bit:
>
> http://www.toolstoday.com/c-488-spoilboard-insert-cnc-flycutter-router-bits.aspx
>
>
> They are used for two entirely different purposes.

Yes, I paid my dues last night on "fly cutters" but ended up looking at
slot-cutting router bits. 557 w/2" blade: $199 - 11% + sales tax this
week at Menards.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> What Lew surely meant to say was a "slot cutter":
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Mea Culpa.
>
> Yep, "slot cutter" it is.
>
> Lew

Thank you, I appreciate your consideration for my wallet.

Bill

Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:47:20 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I disagree, and from a strong personal experience.
>>
>> Both my grandfathers built and furnished their entire homes, from the
>> ground up, without a table saw.
>
> I think it's what you grew up with, what you're used to that's most
> important. I grew up with a table saw as the main stay of a workshop.
> It's what I know, what I was trained on and what I look for first when
> I enter any wood shop.
>
> Maybe a track saw can replace the tablesaw. When I saw what a Domino
> could do, I knew right away that I wanted one. I just don't get the
> same feeling when I see what a track saw could do. It's just not in
> me.
>
> And, by saying that, I can understand how and why many here dismiss
> the Domino as not being necessary. It's just not in them.
>

I saw a video on the Domino and I can appreciate why those in the the
"time is money" camp like them. It's not too complicated: If someone
will get enough use (or enjoyment) out of it, then they might buy one.

Swingman wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 11:23 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> (I still need to look up "fly cutters". That's my next search.)
>
> Don't bother, it will just confuse you. To use a "fly cutter" in lieu of
> a plate jointer to cut biscuit slots would not get you very far.
>
> What Lew surely meant to say was a "slot cutter":
>
> http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtslot.htm

Thank you for helping me identify the right one.

Bill

>
> Fly Cutter bit:
>
> http://www.toolstoday.com/c-488-spoilboard-insert-cnc-flycutter-router-bits.aspx
>
>
> They are used for two entirely different purposes.
>

Leon wrote:
> On 10/29/2012 10:57 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:05:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> I buy biscuits by the box, 6 bag boxes. I get them, 1800, for about
>>> $80. so about 4.4 cents each. I used to pay $30 for 1000 biscuits, or
>>> .3 cents each. The price difference is not a factor. The quality of
>>> the 5mm domino over the biscuit is.
>>
>> At a guess, I'd think that biscuits are stamped out and easier to make
>> than Dominos. But they cost more and it's like many other things that
>> are priced inordinately high. They will take you for whatever the
>> market will bear.
>>
>
> Yeah, biscuits appear to be stamped out, the edges do not appear to be
> milled or cut. I also find them to be inconsistent in thickness, I
> often found that some fit the same hole too loosely or too tightly.
>
> Toss in that a proper depth biscuit slot is much wider than the biscuit
> and that the biscuit alignment on only good for up and down. Side to
> side is a no go.


I assume that's especially true for a slot cut using a router (with a
slot-cutter bit). But If you have at least one biscuit on each of two
perpendicular planes (like the rails and the stiles), it seems like that
would work fairly-well, no?

I watched a video which showed the user cutting one Domino slot as a
"tight-fit" and the parallel ones as loose fits to facilitate
*assembly*. The tight fit one was to facilitate *placement*.

BTW, if you had your choice, would you rather have Bosch corded (JS-470)
or cordless Li-ion jig saw. They are close to the same price since I
already own batteries. My gut tells me the corded one is probably
better made (and built to last). Of course, I am pleased with my
cordless drill and impact driver. Maybe I'm just slow to adapt. I just
got a cordless phone, and I leave it plugged in... : )

Bill

Mike M wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:11:10 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:16:28 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>>> the cart before the horse IMHO.
>>
>> Yeah, I have to agree with that. I really like my Domino, but for me a
>> tablesaw is the first, highest requirement. I got along a number of
>> years without a Domino, but a tablesaw has *always* been along for the
>> ride in one form or another.
>
> Swingman made a good point about considering the bandsaw as the first
> choice. I prefer having both, but for someone just starting to obtain
> tools, they need to consider what they will be trying to do.

I will be trying to be a craftsman.

I've read several of the books that Paul N. Hasluck co-wrote/edited. I
may build a chicken coop with Acanthus leaves and floral ornamentation
carved on the outside. I might pound some nails and string some wires,
and pluck the strings like a banjo or guitar...

Is one supposed to start with chickens or eggs? I may have to go with
Festool is the they don't like my shopvac...

Cheers,
Bill




> Unfortunately we all have to deal with some kind of budget.
>
> Mike M
>

Mike M wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:40:50 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike M wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:11:10 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:16:28 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>>> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>>>>> the cart before the horse IMHO.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I have to agree with that. I really like my Domino, but for me a
>>>> tablesaw is the first, highest requirement. I got along a number of
>>>> years without a Domino, but a tablesaw has *always* been along for the
>>>> ride in one form or another.
>>>
>>> Swingman made a good point about considering the bandsaw as the first
>>> choice. I prefer having both, but for someone just starting to obtain
>>> tools, they need to consider what they will be trying to do.
>>
>> I will be trying to be a craftsman.
>>
>> I've read several of the books that Paul N. Hasluck co-wrote/edited. I
>> may build a chicken coop with Acanthus leaves and floral ornamentation
>> carved on the outside. I might pound some nails and string some wires,
>> and pluck the strings like a banjo or guitar...
>>
>> Is one supposed to start with chickens or eggs? I may have to go with
>> Festool if the they don't like my shopvac...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Unfortunately we all have to deal with some kind of budget.
>>>
>>> Mike M
>>>
> Bill everyone is giving ;you suggestions on what they learned. Right
> or wrong it is for you decide what works for you. You make the best
> decision for you.

Yes, I appreciate that. I was just having a little fun with more prior
post--but I meant the part about "craftsman".

With regard to what you said, concerning "joining" tools, I added a $21
(router) slot cutter to my Amazon wish list. That tool suggestion surely
saved me close to $200 for the time being. I think the tool is quite
adequate for "where I am at" too.

I can have a lot of fun with a pencil. I just can't cut a dado with one.

Cheers,
Bill

Mike M wrote:
> Bill everyone is giving ;you suggestions on what they learned. Right
> or wrong it is for you decide what works for you. You make the best
> decision for you.
>

I'm not afraid to ask questions, and I'm always thankful for any
suggestions that I get. One thing I have learned (in another venue) is
that there is "power in numbers". The communal interest is a good
motivator. There are so many possible sources of distraction these days.
I think this is certainly one of my primary social outlets too. I'm also
a member of a woodcarving club--big "event" this weekend, in central
Indiana, supported by several clubs. And then there's my full-time job! : )

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> With regard to what you said, concerning "joining" tools, I added a $21
>> (router) slot cutter to my Amazon wish list. That tool suggestion surely
>> saved me close to $200 for the time being. I think the tool is quite
>
> I grabbed the HF set one day, before I bought a bisquicker. They're a
> bother, comparatively, but for under $8... It's saved for splines.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/three-wing-slotting-cutters-3-pack-42133.html
>

I guess there is Cheap, and then there is Super-Cheap! How do your 5/32"
biscuits fit into the 1/8" slots? I assume you're not using the 1/4"
slots.

>
>> adequate for "where I am at" too.
>
> Where "at" is you, anyway?

That's the thing about woodworking (as pointed out in an interesting
post by HA* the other day). Everyone seems to approach it having
different background and experience. With regards to your question, I am
"here"! At least that's what the map says :)

>
>
>> I can have a lot of fun with a pencil. I just can't cut a dado with one.
>
> They really have to be spinning to achieve that.

Yes, if you have any old Tinker Toys lying around, you can make a fly
cutter bit! : ) That's the fact, Jack!

>
> --
> It is easier to fool people than it is to
> convince people that they have been fooled.
> --Mark Twain
>

Thanks for the post!

Bill

Swingman wrote:
> On 10/30/2012 9:49 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> With regard to what you said, concerning "joining" tools, I added a $21
>> (router) slot cutter to my Amazon wish list. That tool suggestion surely
>> saved me close to $200 for the time being. I think the tool is quite
>> adequate for "where I am at" too.
>>
>> I can have a lot of fun with a pencil. I just can't cut a dado with one.
>
> Pay attention, Bubba ... _The Man_ himself speaks!!
>
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30187
>
>
> Note the technique that Norm uses to mount face frames to casework using
> biscuits and a slot cutter, as Lew suggested.
>
> What he doesn't mention is that this technique allows you to adjust the
> FF position, similar to what Leon was saying about making the Domino
> mortises a little wider in length to gain some "wiggle room" in fitting
> the parts together.
>
> Disclaimer ... I do not use this method of attaching FF's, but do not
> have a problem with recommending it if it suits your needs.
>
> (I prefer the dado in the FF method because it allows me to concentrate
> on building a very square FF, then assembling the cabinet casework on
> top of that guaranteed square FF, insuring a SQUARE cabinet ... making
> drawers, doors, and hardware much easier to install overall, and saving
> me enough time to make a profit on the job)
>
> YMMV ...
>

Swingman wrote:
<snip>

> What he doesn't mention is that this technique allows you to adjust the
> FF position, similar to what Leon was saying about making the Domino
> mortises a little wider in length to gain some "wiggle room" in fitting
> the parts together.

Yep, that little tip is worth the price of admission right there!

>
> Disclaimer ... I do not use this method of attaching FF's, but do not
> have a problem with recommending it if it suits your needs.
>
> (I prefer the dado in the FF method because it allows me to concentrate
> on building a very square FF, then assembling the cabinet casework on
> top of that guaranteed square FF, insuring a SQUARE cabinet ... making
> drawers, doors, and hardware much easier to install overall, and saving
> me enough time to make a profit on the job)
>
> YMMV ...
>

On 10/29/2012 2:53 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:57:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I like the looks of the Domino and will probably buy one at some point, but
>> where you are Bill, I'd encourage you to consider a table saw first.
>
> I agree 100%. My Domino is indispensable to me in many areas, but it's
> always proceeded by what I cut on the tablesaw. I grew up with access
> to a tablesaw until I bought my first one at 18 years of age. Every
> shop I used after that was always arranged around a tablesaw.
>
> Eventually, I bought a biscuit joiner that did what it was supposed
> to. But, once I bought the Domino, the biscuit joiner sat on a shelf
> virtually unused for the next two years. Ended up selling it and 2000
> biscuits for $50. If memory serves, the biscuits themselves cost me
> $80, but don't regret letting the joiner go one bit.
>


I buy biscuits by the box, 6 bag boxes. I get them, 1800, for about
$80. so about 4.4 cents each. I used to pay $30 for 1000 biscuits, or
.3 cents each. The price difference is not a factor. The quality of
the 5mm domino over the biscuit is.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:48:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike M wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>>>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>>>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>>>> one with a reliable fence.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>
>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
>> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
>> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
>> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
>> really like and use them.
>
>Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
>little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
>"heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!
>
>Bill
>
Having read Mike Marlows post I'll jump in with him. If you don't
have a table saw or a great track saw don't buy the Domino. A great
table saw will let you build jigs and other things which will do more
for you then a biscuit cutter or a domino. Really it should be your
primary tool. For some of the projects you've mentioned I would
concentrate on the tool which will likely be the center of your shop.

Mike M
>>
>> Mike M
>>

On 10/29/2012 1:53 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:21:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/28/2012 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>>> one with a reliable fence.
>>>
>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>>
>> Most all better brand companies these days make a good plate joiner.
>> The PC 557 is probably the majority choice. And I have that one too.
>
> Did you choose it because it came with the extra cutter and finish
> bisquits for only a bit more money? Besides it being a high quality
> tool, of course.

I bought mine as an eeeeearllly type 1. I bought it to replace my 556
plate joiner which was belt drive. IIRC at the time it had the best
fence design. Some design feature of the fence infringed on DeWalts
patent thus Type 2 which everyone disliked. I paid $197 IIRC I do have
the FF cuter but seldom used it.

On 10/29/2012 2:44 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> ""[email protected]" wrote:
>
>> Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Does not, cannot cut straight.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> My guess is you have never used a Bosch with a Bosch bimetal blade.
>

Or a Milwaukee, or a Festool.... with a Bosch blade.

On 10/29/2012 12:22 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> A TS is on the horizon.
>>
>> BTW, I didn't say I was ready to run out and buy a Domino, just that I
>> was going to learn a little more about them. I was serious though about
>> the biscuit cutter and a jigsaw (I didn't mention the latter).
>>
>> Bill
>
> Get the table saw immediately. Before anything else. You use it for dimensioning plywood and cutting solid wood. Table saw is used to cut everything.

Do a lot of curves with the TS. do you?



> Skip the jigsaw. Its inaccurate. Does not, cannot cut straight.

Yours might be, you need to buy better tools.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:11:10 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:16:28 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>>the cart before the horse IMHO.
>
>Yeah, I have to agree with that. I really like my Domino, but for me a
>tablesaw is the first, highest requirement. I got along a number of
>years without a Domino, but a tablesaw has *always* been along for the
>ride in one form or another.

Swingman made a good point about considering the bandsaw as the first
choice. I prefer having both, but for someone just starting to obtain
tools, they need to consider what they will be trying to do.
Unfortunately we all have to deal with some kind of budget.

Mike M

Here , here.
I don't own a Domino.. I do my M&T using tablesaw , moritsing machine,
drill press, router or by hand.

I have a Dewalt biscuit joiner... hardly use it. (it is very good,
although not as good as the old porter cable)

What Mike and Mike said is abolutely true. The tablesaw should by higher
on your list. I don't know if you have a bandsaw, but that too is above
the biscuit joiner. The bandsaw can do cuts that would be too scary on
the tablesaw. A good glue joint doesn't require biscuits.
The only thing biscuits do is allow you to align more easily (usually)
but when edge joining, I stopped using the biscuits. I get better
alignment by working the joints. For perpendicular joints, a dado or
groove is more efficient, and stronger.

While the need might be there, you can really get by w/o one. Get one
used and you'll save yourself some money.

Now I wish I had more time to work in the shop.. the job and 4-5 hours
of commuting is eliminating all shop time.. Damn, when you don't have a
job you can't work (no funds, no drive) when you have a job ... you
can't work... no time..

Looking forward to a day when I can get back to working wood... and
soon. To all the other east coasters in the path of Sandy good luck.
I put all my stuff high this time.. Irene did me in.. first flood I ever
had in this house.. this time all my equip is I hope out of harms way.
If we get the 10" that they predict... I may have to move some stuff higher.



On 10/28/2012 9:34 PM, Mike M wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:48:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Mike M wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you have a
>>>>> plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I hope that you'll
>>>>> share with me which one you are using. I'm trying to make sure I choose
>>>>> one with a reliable fence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>>
>>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
>>> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
>>> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
>>> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
>>> really like and use them.
>>
>> Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
>> little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
>> "heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!
>>
>> Bill
>>
> Having read Mike Marlows post I'll jump in with him. If you don't
> have a table saw or a great track saw don't buy the Domino. A great
> table saw will let you build jigs and other things which will do more
> for you then a biscuit cutter or a domino. Really it should be your
> primary tool. For some of the projects you've mentioned I would
> concentrate on the tool which will likely be the center of your shop.
>
> Mike M
>>>
>>> Mike M
>>>

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:08:09 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 10/28/2012 5:36 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there I
>> would be more worried about not being able to remember what happened
>> to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better luck with
>> pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion others may
>> really like and use them.
>
>I have the 557 also, and it has been the favorite amongst the old
>timer's for years, although I couldn't vouch for the current version
>made in who knows where.
>
>Basically I use mine only for gluing up flat panels and reinforcing
>miter joints on wide frames, but, and not having a Domino (not worth
>breaking out the Multi-Router for something the 557 can do) it's not
>something I would like to be without.
>
>Bill, I'm not sure about the other brands on the market today, but one
>of the 557's selling points in years past was that it included a smaller
>blade for face frame biscuit application ... although I don't use it for
>face frames, it is handy to have that smaller biscuit option, used more
>frequently than you would suspect at first blush.

That's why I still have mine. I have a skylight rebuild to do in my
living room where it may be the best solution. I forgot all about the
face frame benefit and somewhere I have shims for the face that were
available to solve a problem. I need to build storage. I took
advantage of the woodpecker full slide drawer deal and plan to build
more storage. I should have 10 20" full slide and 10 22" drawer
slides by pairs.

Mike M

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:11:18 -0700, Mike M
>>Agree there, having both the PC 557 and the Domino, choosing the Domino
>>over the PC 557 is like choosing square drive over straight. I keep the
>>PC557 as there are odd times when I need a narrow moon shaped slot, like
>>for a desk drawer lock with the swinging arm that needs to turn into a slot.
>
>I'll have to remember that use.

My palm sander with a slot cutter does that job. Nope, biscuit joiner
still gets put on the forsale block.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:47:20 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>I disagree, and from a strong personal experience.
>
>Both my grandfathers built and furnished their entire homes, from the
>ground up, without a table saw.

I think it's what you grew up with, what you're used to that's most
important. I grew up with a table saw as the main stay of a workshop.
It's what I know, what I was trained on and what I look for first when
I enter any wood shop.

Maybe a track saw can replace the tablesaw. When I saw what a Domino
could do, I knew right away that I wanted one. I just don't get the
same feeling when I see what a track saw could do. It's just not in
me.

And, by saying that, I can understand how and why many here dismiss
the Domino as not being necessary. It's just not in them.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:44:51 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> I see that the shop is your "bow saur project", Bill. <giggle>
>>
>
>It's getting there. Who would have thought (it would take so long)...

<g>


>It didn't help that I ripped down part of a wall last summer to replace
>a 2-switch box with a 3-switch box. Some people would have let it go... ;)

I probably would have used a few fixtures with pull-chains for the
third circuit. Wire two or three through the first, then pull one
chain. (perhaps with a heavier-duty switch)

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt

On 10/29/2012 8:16 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
> the cart before the horse IMHO.

I disagree, and from a strong personal experience.

Both my grandfathers built and furnished their entire homes, from the
ground up, without a table saw.

I worked for a cabinetmaker in England who's family made cabinets and
furniture for 200 years without a table saw.

I personally made many of my own household furnishing for 30 years
before I ever owned a table saw, much less a decent one.

Historically, and after thousands of years of making wooden furniture,
you can cut wood many different ways, but there are only relatively few
time tested methods of JOINERY to this day.

The Domino, and similar devices, opened the door to a far more
universally applicable method of JOINERY for the average woodworker.

IOW, cut the best way you can, but master the JOINERY, or you're pissing
in the wind.

Nuff said ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:57:52 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>I like the looks of the Domino and will probably buy one at some point, but
>where you are Bill, I'd encourage you to consider a table saw first.

I agree 100%. My Domino is indispensable to me in many areas, but it's
always proceeded by what I cut on the tablesaw. I grew up with access
to a tablesaw until I bought my first one at 18 years of age. Every
shop I used after that was always arranged around a tablesaw.

Eventually, I bought a biscuit joiner that did what it was supposed
to. But, once I bought the Domino, the biscuit joiner sat on a shelf
virtually unused for the next two years. Ended up selling it and 2000
biscuits for $50. If memory serves, the biscuits themselves cost me
$80, but don't regret letting the joiner go one bit.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:40:50 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike M wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:11:10 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:16:28 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>> Without having a descent table saw first, this whole tread has put
>>>> the cart before the horse IMHO.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I have to agree with that. I really like my Domino, but for me a
>>> tablesaw is the first, highest requirement. I got along a number of
>>> years without a Domino, but a tablesaw has *always* been along for the
>>> ride in one form or another.
>>
>> Swingman made a good point about considering the bandsaw as the first
>> choice. I prefer having both, but for someone just starting to obtain
>> tools, they need to consider what they will be trying to do.
>
>I will be trying to be a craftsman.
>
>I've read several of the books that Paul N. Hasluck co-wrote/edited. I
>may build a chicken coop with Acanthus leaves and floral ornamentation
>carved on the outside. I might pound some nails and string some wires,
>and pluck the strings like a banjo or guitar...
>
>Is one supposed to start with chickens or eggs? I may have to go with
>Festool is the they don't like my shopvac...
>
>Cheers,
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>> Unfortunately we all have to deal with some kind of budget.
>>
>> Mike M
>>
Bill everyone is giving ;you suggestions on what they learned. Right
or wrong it is for you decide what works for you. You make the best
decision for you.

On 10/28/2012 11:23 PM, Bill wrote:

> (I still need to look up "fly cutters". That's my next search.)

Don't bother, it will just confuse you. To use a "fly cutter" in lieu of
a plate jointer to cut biscuit slots would not get you very far.

What Lew surely meant to say was a "slot cutter":

http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtslot.htm

Fly Cutter bit:

http://www.toolstoday.com/c-488-spoilboard-insert-cnc-flycutter-router-bits.aspx

They are used for two entirely different purposes.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:23:49 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Mike M wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:02:14 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry, I recall you own some Makita tools, and I know you use your
>>>>>> tools. I was looking at the Makita plate joiner (J7000). If you
>>>>>> have a plate joiner whose precision you are very happy with, I
>>>>>> hope that you'll share with me which one you are using. I'm trying
>>>>>> to make sure I choose one with a reliable fence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, anyone is free to reply to this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, that was supposed to be PJ7000.
>>>>
>>>> I've got the PC 557 which has a good fence. To be honest it hasn't
>>>> been used in sometime. If I went looking for it and it wasn't there
>>>> I would be more worried about not being able to remember what
>>>> happened to it. Some of it is having the Domino, but had better
>>>> luck with pocket screws, or splines. But that's just my opinion
>>>> others may really like and use them.
>>>
>>> Now that I have better grasp of what is at stake, I'll try to learn a
>>> little more about the Domino. My first impression is that it appears
>>> "heavier duty". Your post was helpful to me. Thank you!
>>>
>>
>> I like the looks of the Domino and will probably buy one at some point, but
>> where you are Bill, I'd encourage you to consider a table saw first. It's a
>> matter of owning the tools that will allow you to take advantage of other
>> tools - and of course, to do the basic forms of work even if they are a
>> little more longhand than what the cooler things might enable down the road.
>> A Domino on a shitty cut made by a circular saw or a jig saw isn't going to
>> offer one single bit of benefit. On the other hand, a good cut made on a
>> table saw can be joined in a multitude of ways - Domino or no Domino. If
>> you buy the cooler tools first, you'll end up with tools on your shelf that
>> you really can't take advantage of.
>>
>
>A TS is on the horizon. I need to finish my drywall, painting, and
>lighting renovations first. At least the first two. It's not convenient
>to introduce a TS in the shop while I have everything "stack up" into
>the middle of its centre (i.e. away from the walls). In the meantime, at
>least I can work at my workbench.

I see that the shop is your "bow saur project", Bill. <giggle>


>BTW, I didn't say I was ready to run out and buy a Domino, just that I
>was going to learn a little more about them. I was serious though about
>the biscuit cutter and a jigsaw (I didn't mention the latter).

They're nice, but not at the price of a firstborn.
(Leon need not reply.)


>Lew's comments about using a 5/32" straight bit wasn't lost on me either
>(I still need to look up "fly cutters". That's my next search.)

"How do you get them to sit still for that?" is what I want to know.


>I can't do drywall work during the current season, so I just have to do
>what I can do.

Why not? It's all inside work. Heat the shop and go for it. If it's
still too damp, use a dehumidifier. Borrow one if you don't have one.
Or put up -all- those lights. That'll heat the shop. <gd&r>


>Gaining insight counts for alot (to me), and I picked up
>a fair amount of that this weekend--for sure!

Ayup, knowledge and insight are wonderful things.

--
No greater wrong can ever be done than to put a good man at the mercy
of a bad, while telling him not to defend himself or his fellows;
in no way can the success of evil be made quicker or surer.
--Theodore Roosevelt