Bandsaw Coplanar

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>> Forgot to mention ... one of the _first_ things you will want to do with
>> an old 14" Jet or Delta band saw is to replace the factory tension spring
>> . This one "upgrade" will do wonders and make your quality blade
>> purchases perform even better.
>>
>
> I was wondering about that.
> Next to bearing side guides, the tension spring the most common upgrade
> I've seen in the catalogs.


Bearing guides..... ;~) some people like'm. I for a 2 week period owned a
18" Rikon and bought it thinking I was upgrading from a 12" Craftsman. I
did not like the saw particularly because of the guide bearings.
My experience was that if the wood is sticky or wet, it will stick to the
bearing guides and "bang" against the blade creating all kinds of noise and
vibration. This is "one" the reasons I returned it spend much more money
and go with the Laguna with the ceramic guides.

Others have posted that they have not had an issue or felt the bearing
problem was not enough to worry about.

If the blade is tracking properly, leave it alone.

Stop reading so much.

Do what you think is reasonable maintenance and
leave the "fine tuning to death" to the other folks.

If it cuts reasonably straight, don't do anything
else to the machine.

Spend your money on good blades.


-MIKE- wrote:
> I'm tearing this bandsaw apart and cleaning it all up, inspecting and
> lubing. She will definitely need new tires very soon.
>
> I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one another.
>
> Current status: the blade is tracking fine and seems to be staying close
> enough to the center of the wheels. Right now, I'm at 1/16" or less from
> coplanar.

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>> ... or do yourself, and your 14", the biggest favor of all and call
>> Iturra Designs (866-883-8064) and order their catalog. Last I heard that
>> was the latest number.
>
> I want to thank you for the number. I've seen them mention eight zillion
> times in the internet and you're the first guy to give a phone number.

Let us know if you reach them. Maybe I caught them on vacation or something.
Couldn't reach them by phone, and got no replies to email.

"-MIKE-" wrote

> Two questions...
> First, how vital is this?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

> The consensus opinion out there seems to be, it's not absolutely
> necessary because of the ability to adjust the tracking of the top
> wheel, but with perfect coplanar you will need less tracking adjustment
> when changing blades, plus you will notice less drift when cutting.

I would argue that ain't necessarily so ... drift is most often a
characteristic of the particular blade, IME.

> Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
> Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?

See first above ... and how thick is your washer?

> (There is a similar phenomenon is music, wherein all
> pop/rock bands sound the same, called "Coldplanar.") :-)

Sounds more like RAP than Rock ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"-MIKE-" wrote
> Swingman wrote:
>>> Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>>> Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?
>>
>> See first above ... and how thick is your washer?
>>
>
> There are no existing washers.

The Point: washers are what you would use to shim the wheel were you to do
so, so the question is relevant. IOW, do you have a washer that will correct
1/16"?

The best advice hasn't changed, if it ain't broke don't mess with it.

... or do yourself, and your 14", the biggest favor of all and call Iturra
Designs (866-883-8064) and order their catalog. Last I heard that was the
latest number.

You're welcome ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:54:50 -0500, Leon wrote:

> Bearing guides..... ;~) some people like'm. I for a 2 week period
> owned a 18" Rikon and bought it thinking I was upgrading from a 12"
> Craftsman. I did not like the saw particularly because of the guide
> bearings. My experience was that if the wood is sticky or wet, it will
> stick to the bearing guides and "bang" against the blade creating all
> kinds of noise and vibration. This is "one" the reasons I returned it
> spend much more money and go with the Laguna with the ceramic guides.

Seemed more to me like it stuck to the blade and the roller bearings
pressed it tight. In either case, I put some TopCote or equivalent
thereof on the blade and the problem went away.

But it is a common complaint about roller guides.





--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

This e-mail doesn't seem to work, could you please check it.

Thanks much,

Jim

Swingman wrote:<snipped>

>
> You might try this one also:
>
> Office: 904-371-3998
> Office & Fax: 904-642-2802
> E-mail: KALLL@ comcast.net
>
> And, if push comes to shove:
>
> Iturra Design
> 4636 Fulton Road
> Jacksonville, FL 32225-1332

"Swingman" wrote

> It's not just a "catalog" as such, as it has some info essential to
> keeping Jet and Delta 14" band saws in good working order ... really a
> must have for owners of the these two machines. Well worth the trouble of
> getting your hands on one in the 21st century.

Forgot to mention ... one of the _first_ things you will want to do with an
old 14" Jet or Delta band saw is to replace the factory tension spring .
This one "upgrade" will do wonders and make your quality blade purchases
perform even better.

I have one of Iturra's blade tension gauges, replaced the spring and
recalibrated the factory spring tension marks a few years ago, and it
immediately made the band saw into a "very good" re-saw machine when used
with a 1/2" 3 tpi blade.

I say "very good" because until you seen a machine like Leon has in action,
you realize that "very good" is about all you can tweak out of a 14" model,
but it has certainly served my purposes thus far.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>>>>> Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>>>>> Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?
>>>> See first above ... and how thick is your washer?
>>>>
>>> There are no existing washers.
>>
>> The Point: washers are what you would use to shim the wheel were you to
>> do so, so the question is relevant. IOW, do you have a washer that will
>> correct 1/16"?
>>
>
> I have plenty and can get more. I don't know if you caught this in my
> first post, but it's the bottom wheel that would need to come out and
> that sombich would be a bear to get off (bearing puller).


Iturra sells "shims" (washers) specifically made for the purpose ranging
from .001 to .125 for both Jet and Delta 14", for both upper and lower
wheels.

>> The best advice hasn't changed, if it ain't broke don't mess with it.
>>
>
> Yeah, I'm in that boat with you. BTW, I just ran it and it's good. I'm
> leavin it.
>
>
>> ... or do yourself, and your 14", the biggest favor of all and call
>> Iturra Designs (866-883-8064) and order their catalog. Last I heard that
>> was the latest number.
>>
>> You're welcome ...
>>
>
> I want to thank you for the number. I've seen them mention eight zillion
> times in the internet and you're the first guy to give a phone number.

I hope the number is indeed good. I tried and got a recording before I
posted it, but it was at after 5PM. The old "toll free" number is apparently
no longer in service. Louis has answered the phone himself in the past when
I've called.

You might try this one also:

Office: 904-371-3998
Office & Fax: 904-642-2802
E-mail: KALLL@ comcast.net

And, if push comes to shove:

Iturra Design
4636 Fulton Road
Jacksonville, FL 32225-1332

And, if push really comes to shove, holler and we can make arrangements for
you to borrow mine, although it is the 2006 catalog, I have ordered out of
it as late as 12/2007, a little over a year ago.

It's not just a "catalog" as such, as it has some info essential to keeping
Jet and Delta 14" band saws in good working order ... really a must have for
owners of the these two machines. Well worth the trouble of getting your
hands on one in the 21st century.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm tearing this bandsaw apart and cleaning it all up, inspecting and
> lubing. She will definitely need new tires very soon.
>
> I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one another.

IIRC it has been mentioned in the past that Jet calls for the wheel to not
be coplaner.

When are you measuring the difference, with no blade, blade partly
tensioned. or blade properly tendsioed.

Typically the more flex your band saw has the more you have to adjust the
top wheel to off set that "give" in the frame after tensioning the blade.
The wheels could actually be coplaner and not, with any given blade mounted
and properly tensioned. Keep that in mind when trying to shim the borrom
wheel to be coplaner.



>
> Current status: the blade is tracking fine and seems to be staying close
> enough to the center of the wheels.

That is really all you are looking for.



Right now, I'm at 1/16" or less from
> coplanar.
> In order to get the wheels in perfect coplanar, I would need to move the
> bottom wheel out. This looks to be much more involved than moving
> the top wheel, which slips on and off very easily.
>
> Two questions...
> First, how vital is this?

Again, it is the results that you are looking for, you may fix it so well
that it does not work well at all. ;~)


> The consensus opinion out there seems to be, it's not absolutely
> necessary because of the ability to adjust the tracking of the top
> wheel, but with perfect coplanar you will need less tracking adjustment
> when changing blades, plus you will notice less drift when cutting.

Again, the tensioning of the blade tends to cause the wheels to become non
coplaner because of the flex in the BS frame. My Laguna very very seldom
needs it's top wheel adjusted at all unless I am going from the extreme of
the 1/4" blade to the 1-1/4" blade. Typically any blade in between never
needs any tracking asjustments at all, the wide 1-1/4' wide blade does
require quite a bit more tension than the smaller blades.

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" wrote in message
>>> I'm tearing this bandsaw apart and cleaning it all up, inspecting and
>>> lubing. She will definitely need new tires very soon.
>>>
>>> I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one
>>> another.
>>
>> IIRC it has been mentioned in the past that Jet calls for the wheel to
>> not be coplaner.
>>
>
> No kidding? Maybe because of the flex you mentioned later.

Maybe. And you don't know how much negative tilt you can get from the
tracking adjustment. My Delta is also close, and I didn't bother to shim for
no-load coplanar. Frankly, I don't see any real benefit, and a reasonable
possibility I won't have enough tracking adjustment if it flexes beyond
coplanar under tension.

On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:34:48 -0500, Leon wrote:

>> I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one
>> another.
>
> IIRC it has been mentioned in the past that Jet calls for the wheel to
> not be coplaner.

Hmmm. I should have read your reply before I posted :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:38:26 -0500, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> That's the thing. I'm coming from a POS 9" ProTech that I got for $40,
> years ago. So I'm sure using this Jet will be like going from a Honda
> Civic to a Lamborghini.
>
> I'm going to be so overwhelmed by the improved performance that it'll
> take a while to see any benefit from perfect coplanar. That's why I'm
> asking for opinions. Because if it is *that* important, I'll take the
> extra effort now, while the saw is in parts.
>

OK, this is a distant memory, so it may well be wrong. But I seem to
remember some years back that Jet had a model that, according to their
customer service department, was designed to NOT be coplanar. I forget
the rationale given. Seems we never decided if that was just a load of
BS from customer service or if there really was a valid reason.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:32:08 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one another.
>...
>First, how vital is this?

It's not at all vital unless your wheels have flat surfaces. If the
wheels are crowned, and the blade tracks properly, it's a good as
you're going to get it. If the wheels have flat surfaces, parallel is
necessary, but coplanar is necessary only if the blade has to track at
a specific location on the wheel. My metal cutting bandsaw has flat,
hard surfaced wheels so the blade tracks with the teeth just proud of
the wheel edge to avoid disturbing the blade's set. Parallel is needed
for the blade to stay on the wheels, co-planar is needed so the blade
tracks at the proper location. That's not the case with a crowned,
soft-surface wheel.

>.. you will notice less drift when cutting.

Has no effect on drift. That is totally dependent on the blade
condition; tension, set, sharpness, guide locations, etc.
>
>Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?

If it's so far out of plane that the blade won't ride on both wheels
at the same time, then it's too far out of plane. If the blade tracks
properly, you're fine.
>

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Swingman wrote:
>> Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>> Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?
>
> See first above ... and how thick is your washer?
>

There are no existing washers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Phisherman wrote:
>> Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>> Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?
>
> One step of the bandsaw tuneup involves getting both wheels coplanar.
> Your manual may state something like shimming the lower wheel to make
> it so. A metal straightedge should not "rock" against the wheels.
> Even 1/64" out of plane is way too much for me, I'll try to make it
> zero--but hey, it's your saw and only you can decide how precise to
> be.

That's the thing. I'm coming from a POS 9" ProTech that I got for $40,
years ago. So I'm sure using this Jet will be like going from a Honda
Civic to a Lamborghini.

I'm going to be so overwhelmed by the improved performance that it'll
take a while to see any benefit from perfect coplanar. That's why I'm
asking for opinions. Because if it is *that* important, I'll take the
extra effort now, while the saw is in parts.

Which leads back to your first statement. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon wrote:
> "-MIKE-" wrote in message
>> I'm tearing this bandsaw apart and cleaning it all up, inspecting and
>> lubing. She will definitely need new tires very soon.
>>
>> I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one another.
>
> IIRC it has been mentioned in the past that Jet calls for the wheel to not
> be coplaner.
>

No kidding? Maybe because of the flex you mentioned later.


> When are you measuring the difference, with no blade, blade partly
> tensioned. or blade properly tendsioed.
>

All three.


>> Current status: the blade is tracking fine and seems to be staying close
>> enough to the center of the wheels.
>
> That is really all you are looking for.
>

Thanks for the input.


>>
>> Two questions...
>> First, how vital is this?
>
> Again, it is the results that you are looking for, you may fix it so well
> that it does not work well at all. ;~)
>

I hear you.
Back in the day, I was guilty on occasion, of repairing something beyond
repair. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Pat Barber wrote:
> If the blade is tracking properly, leave it alone.
>
> Stop reading so much.
>

That's generally my opinion when it comes to instructions. :-)


> Do what you think is reasonable maintenance and
> leave the "fine tuning to death" to the other folks.
>
> If it cuts reasonably straight, don't do anything
> else to the machine.
>
> Spend your money on good blades.
>

Good advice. Thanks.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

>> <snip> lots of good info
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA

Thanks a bunch, Tom.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:
>>>> Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>>>> Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?
>>> See first above ... and how thick is your washer?
>>>
>> There are no existing washers.
>
> The Point: washers are what you would use to shim the wheel were you to do
> so, so the question is relevant. IOW, do you have a washer that will correct
> 1/16"?
>

I have plenty and can get more. I don't know if you caught this in my
first post, but it's the bottom wheel that would need to come out and
that sombich would be a bear to get off (bearing puller).


> The best advice hasn't changed, if it ain't broke don't mess with it.
>

Yeah, I'm in that boat with you. BTW, I just ran it and it's good. I'm
leavin it.


> ... or do yourself, and your 14", the biggest favor of all and call Iturra
> Designs (866-883-8064) and order their catalog. Last I heard that was the
> latest number.
>
> You're welcome ...
>

I want to thank you for the number. I've seen them mention eight zillion
times in the internet and you're the first guy to give a phone number.

Second thing I'll do after ordering their catalog is to gently attempt
to persuade them to get with the 90's (one decade at a time) and get a
freakin website. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
> OK, this is a distant memory, so it may well be wrong. But I seem to
> remember some years back that Jet had a model that, according to their
> customer service department, was designed to NOT be coplanar. I forget
> the rationale given. Seems we never decided if that was just a load of
> BS from customer service or if there really was a valid reason.
>

I know for a fact that they wouldn't be the first manufacturer to
fabricate a technical description supporting a reason for the existence
of a design flaw. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:
> Forgot to mention ... one of the _first_ things you will want to do with an
> old 14" Jet or Delta band saw is to replace the factory tension spring .
> This one "upgrade" will do wonders and make your quality blade purchases
> perform even better.
>

I was wondering about that.
Next to bearing side guides, the tension spring the most common upgrade
I've seen in the catalogs.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

> This e-mail doesn't seem to work, could you please check it.
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Jim
>
>> E-mail: KALLL@ comcast.net
>>

Jim, I see a space between the @ and comcast. close it up...
[email protected]


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:32:08 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'm tearing this bandsaw apart and cleaning it all up, inspecting and
>lubing. She will definitely need new tires very soon.
>
>I've been reading about the wheels needing to be coplanar to one another.
>
>Current status: the blade is tracking fine and seems to be staying close
>enough to the center of the wheels. Right now, I'm at 1/16" or less from
>coplanar.
>In order to get the wheels in perfect coplanar, I would need to move the
>bottom wheel out. This looks to be much more involved than moving
>the top wheel, which slips on and off very easily.
>
>Two questions...
>First, how vital is this?

Well that depends on how badly you want to fine-tune your bandsaw.

>The consensus opinion out there seems to be, it's not absolutely
>necessary because of the ability to adjust the tracking of the top
>wheel, but with perfect coplanar you will need less tracking adjustment
>when changing blades, plus you will notice less drift when cutting.
>
>Secondly, how far out of coplanar is enough to worry about?
>Is 1/16" bad or closer than average?

One step of the bandsaw tuneup involves getting both wheels coplanar.
Your manual may state something like shimming the lower wheel to make
it so. A metal straightedge should not "rock" against the wheels.
Even 1/64" out of plane is way too much for me, I'll try to make it
zero--but hey, it's your saw and only you can decide how precise to
be.

Thanks Mike, I did that when I tried to write him and got the "demon".

Jim

-MIKE- wrote:
>> This e-mail doesn't seem to work, could you please check it.
>>
>> Thanks much,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>> E-mail: KALLL@ comcast.net
>>>
>
> Jim, I see a space between the @ and comcast. close it up...
> [email protected]
>
>