TO SUMMARIZE, I'm building NON-TOXIC studio and bedroom furniture and I
want to lay out my plans and get some direction from those with more
experience. I'm pretty sick, have been for a while, I have chemical
sensitivities, so the little bit of outgassing from plastics or various
resins used in wood products is a problem for me. I have a small but
good selection of tools, some experience, and well ventilated work
space. I have supplied air and carbon filter masks so I'm not too
worried about exposure during construction but only toxicity of the
finished product in my home. Again, I'm sick and I have chemical
sensitivities, so please don't tell me how I'm worried about nothing in
my attempts to find lower toxicity building materials unless you're
also living every day in pain and look like you should be framed behind
a barbed wire fence at auschwitz. Outgassing/toxicity is my number one
concern in these projects.
Here's the PICTURES OF WHAT I'VE DONE SO FAR:
http://142.165.246.187/build/
I want to build STUDIO FURNITURE:
- several desks
- drawing table
- easel
- shelves
- paint booth (sandblasting cabinet design)
THe paint booth "prototype" I built works better than I had hoped, it
seems to make a perfect seal all around the glass and front plate,
turbine air extraction up in the attic suspended from rope is fairly
quiet, lots of full spectrum light, very happy with it except for the
formaldehyde emmissions (MDF), so it's on it's way to the garage right
now while I plan a version to replace it inside. Same with the
drawing/light table, love it but I'm going to re-do it in pine... I was
under the misconception that I could stop the formaldehyde emmissions
with a lot of latex paint, which itself may outgas small levels of
VOCs, lesson learned.
THe materials I want to use for all these items are CONSTRUCTION GRADE
SPF LUMBER, GYPSUM WALLBOARD (DRYWALL), AND PVA GLUE. I'm looking at
these materials for their non-toxicity and low cost, it'll require some
different construction to rely on an SPF frame for strength, covered
with drywall, everything sealed by spraying elmer's children's PVA glue
to seal it. I don't care at all what it looks like, most of it will be
splattered with paint, doodled on, used and abused, built to work and
not to admire. I can't find some of the other non-toxic materials out
there like pressed straw panels and to be honest I don't think they're
worth the cost in this case. I'm wondering if I buy SPF lumber from
Home Depot... is there anything in it besides wood? What will the wood
release into the air? You can smell lumber so it must release
something...? I've looked into cement board and reinforced gypsum
boards but they're not available in my area right now because of
hurricane-induced shortages. Still, if anyone could suggest a safe
gypsum product more suited to shelves and desk surfaces than regular
1/2" drywall let me know, I don't know a whole lot about drywall. I am
willing to live with a delicate board that needs lots of support if
it's safe and cheap though. I'm also trying to find natural gypsum
boards that aren't made with the flue gas desulpherization process, but
all the manufacturers tout it as a good thing because it's
environmentally friendly... as far as I can tell it's taking pollution
out of the air and trapping it in materials to use in my home?!
I also want to build BEDROOM FURNITURE:
- 2 pine armoires
- pine bench, flip-open storage
The requirment for these projects is non-toxic too, but the difference
is I want them to look good. I made the entertainment unit in the
pictures from pine panels. What kind of glue do they use to join the
wood together, should I be concerned at all? I'd like to use shellac to
finish it, which I believe is as non-toxic as it gets, but I'm not sure
about non-toxic stains and also non-toxic filler...?
Maybe the response from most to roll their eyes at the kooky
tree-hugging health nut hippie moron, I tend to get that fairly often.
I used to lay up fiberglass with no mask, wash my hands in laquer
thinner and then go eat a steak and have a beer like a manly man too,
but you change your thinking real quick when it all finally catches up
to you. All I'm looking for is some opinions I guess, I'm in unexplored
territory here and I've already screwed up and cost myself a lot of
time by using MDF which is totally unnacceptable in my living space.
I'm hoping for some direction... learn when someone tells me something
rather than by doing it wrong and wasting more time. Thanks for
reading.
SS
J T wrote:
> Fri, Dec 9, 2005, 8:08am (EST-3) [email protected] responds to
> someone's post, but no way of telling whose, becase he doesn't say,
Sorry I don't have access to my computer and I'm finding google groups
pretty cludgy.
> What makes you think that "whoever" didn't read it all?
They pointed out how toxic my MDF projects were, I already stated I
madea mistake and wasn't aware MDF outgasses and I couldn't
effectively seal it. Since I already knew about the MDF issue they were
either just trying to point out how stupid I am, or were actually
trying to be helpful/informative and didn't read the whole post, I gave
him the benifit of doubt and chose to believe he was a decent guy
trying to be helpful, obviously I was wrong.
> all. You wanted opinions. My first thought was, why doesn't he ask the
> manufacturers of those products? My second hought was, why doesn't he
> ask the manufaturers of those products? So, my opinion is, that you
> should be asking the manufacturers those questions about their products.
Good idea. I've been trying. First of all, I'm not sure what products I
should be using, that's why I'm here. Second, it's pretty hard to get
an answer on some stuff. For instance I've spent almost 3 hours trying
to find out if my local drywall supplier can sell me wallboard that
doesn't use fluegas desulpherization gypsum and recycled paper that may
contain VOCs from inks, and I still have no idea.
Trying to find information on toxicity of building materials is not
easy at all, if you think it is please tell me where you get your info
because I'm having to do a hell of a lot of research to find a tiny bit
of usually contradictory information.
Fri, Dec 9, 2005, 11:39am (EST-3) [email protected] doth say:
<snip> They pointed out how toxic my MDF projects were, I already stated
I madea mistake and wasn't aware MDF outgasses <snip> and didn't read
the whole post, <snip>
Good idea. I've been trying. First of all, I'm not sure what products I
should be using, that's why I'm here. Second, it's pretty hard to get an
answer on some stuff. For instance I've spent almost 3 hours trying to
find out if my local drywall supplier <snip>
Trying to find information on toxicity of building materials is not easy
at all, if you think it is please tell me where you get your info <snip>
I know for a fact that I said ask the "manufacturer", and you're
talking about asking your "supplier". I'm sure whatever you're buying
has a manufacturer's site. Probably the site has product MSDs, or
whatever. They should also have a link to connect them. I doube a
supplier would know, and if you're buying from Hopeless Depot, you'd be
lucky to find anyone who would even know what you're talking about.
However, your supplier should be able to tell you who manufactures
whatever, then you go to them and ask. If your supplier can only tell
you the next step up in the supply chain, but not who the actual
manufacturer is, you got there, and ask them. Repeat as needed. I
would have thought something like that would be pretty basic.
Generation gap I guess. By the way, your cans of latex, or whatever,
should have a 1-800 manufactur contact number on the can, probably on
the back. Personally, I'd ask my mother before I'd ask questions like
that here. You might want to check with your doctor(s) too.
JOAT
A rolling stone gathers no moss...unless it's a hobby he does on the
weekends.
Just my humble opinion, go to a Sherwin Williams or your local
hospital's maintenance department. They surely have experience with
this sort of thing. I would ask them about materials used in isolation
rooms and operating rooms.
Your local Lowe's or H.D. employees are there to sell you something.
Half of the time they are not even qualified to do that.
Tom in KY, wondering if anyone else has had to deal with the same
issue, and what they may have done?
Fri, Dec 9, 2005, 8:08am (EST-3) [email protected] responds to
someone's post, but no way of telling whose, becase he doesn't say,
with:
I realize my post was lengthy, but you should read it all before you
respond.
What makes you think that "whoever" didn't read it all? I read it
all. You wanted opinions. My first thought was, why doesn't he ask the
manufacturers of those products? My second hought was, why doesn't he
ask the manufaturers of those products? So, my opinion is, that you
should be asking the manufacturers those questions about their products.
So don't complain about any answers that you get here. That's my
opinion too.
JOAT
A rolling stone gathers no moss...unless it's a hobby he does on the
weekends.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> TO SUMMARIZE, I'm building NON-TOXIC studio and bedroom furniture and I
> want to lay out my plans and get some direction from those with more
> experience.
Snip
It all depends on what you consider toxic. What may harmful to you may be
perfectly safe to others.
Is there a specific type of toxicity you are concerned about?
Dave
[email protected] wrote:
> http://www.player-care.com/hideglue.html
>
> Hide glue seems like what I want to use. Lee Valley says they carry a
> hide glue they call "veneer glue" in 1lb bags... I'm guessing this is
> what I want?
Hide glue is made from animal protein. Do you have any trouble
with leather?
There is also liquid hide glue available at many home centers,
hardware stores etc. You would want to check the label to see
what they put into it to keep it liquid. Glycerin probably, among
other things.
Can you tolerate ethanol (grain alcohol) and/or methanol
(wood alcohol)?
You can mix your own shellac from shellac flakes using grain alcohol
sold at a liquor store, but if you can tolerate methanol then you can
mix it with the much cheaper alcohol that has been denatured with
methanol. But be sure to check the label, some denatured alcohol
is denatured with ketones.
Of course you may be sensitive to the shellac resin itself, being
nontoxic does not mean you cannot be sensitive to it.
--
FF
[email protected] wrote:
> http://www.casanz.org.au/Documents/tech%20papers/D.%20Mesaros%20paper%20Feb%2003.pdf
> http://www.maruhon.com/business/TVOCbasics.htm
>
> Ok, so softwoods outgas terpene and some other volatile oils. I wonder
> what kind of lumber would be least toxic for building a frame then?
Also some construction lumber is sprayed with a water
repellent, or so they say.
I'd suggest you consider poplar and maple (hard or soft).
Maybe aspen if it is locally available. Poplar is soft enough
to be nailed, most other hardwoods will require a pilot
hole for nails or screws. Shellac has a reputation
for sealing in the resins and acting as a barrier to water vapor.
Dunno if it would prevent diffusion of the organic solvents
found in softwoods though.
I suppose you have also considered a ventilating system
that would prevent objectionable materials from accumulating
in the air. Probably you are mostly concerned about organic
vapors, so a system that filters the air through activated
carbon would be effective, if you need to recirculate the
inside air for energy conservation, or to purify the outside
air brought in.
You say the studio furniture will be splattered with paint.
I'm curious, what sorts of paint do you use, that you can
tolerate? Why not use the same paint to finish the furniture?
--
FF
Sounds to me like highly polished stainless steel would be the best
option for materials. I don't know of any fiber based natural or
man-made product that does not emit gasses at some time or another.
Even high resin plastics release small traces of gas late in their
product life. Have you ever noticed how plastics age and tend to yellow
and dry out? I'm sure that the Finishing materials I use release gasses
long after they are cured. Doesn't varnish, polyurethane, shellac, etc.
dry to a porous finish as the gasses escape into the air? Wouldn't this
porous finish allow gasses from the wood to escape? What about laquer
finishes? It seems to me that after curing, laquer finshing takes a
polish and waxing better than anything else. Does the wax emit enough
gas to bother you? Laquered and polished oak and other hardwoods are
very nice to look at and durable as anything.
Oh, and if you're going to get rid of that drawing table, I'll send you
my address.
Tom in KY, probably not any help but wishing you luck.
I'm not sure of which compounds I'm most sensitive too because I've
been exposed to such a wide range, I"m trying to limit everything. As
far as shellac, I'm going to pick some up this weekend with hide glue,
but really the alcohol should only be an issue when it's drying, right?
Once it's finished and in the house there are no more methanol
emmissions from it? I have excellent breathing protection in my shop.
I've found some literature that says shellac sealing properties vary
based on age and at the best of times it's not a 100% barrier at all.
But still better than nothing.
I'm in the process of ordering activated carbon for my ventilation
system, which I'm building with overkill in mind.
I use acrylic paint, also work with plaster, latex, gelatin, various
stones, watercolors. I don't think artist's acrylics are a good sealer
though and pretty expensive for furniture.
I'm wondering about the toxicity of PVA glue... they say children's
glue is non-toxic... is it not really? Why not just thin it down and
apply it heavily over everything?
I'd love to use stainless actually, but the cost would be absolutely
enormous and the time spent building it increased as well.
Lacquer products outgas for a while I believe.
Your mention of wax made me think of beeswax though... it should be
very safe and a good sealer, maybe heating it with an oil would be a
good way to go?
I've offered the table to someone else, and I need to keep the glass,
but if they refuse and you really want to pay for shipping on such a
large (5 feet) simple item feel free to email me.
[email protected] wrote:
> I've found some literature that says shellac sealing properties vary
> based on age and at the best of times it's not a 100% barrier at all.
> But still better than nothing.
The best shellac is mixed fresh (meaning within a few days) before use.
>
> I'm in the process of ordering activated carbon for my ventilation
> system, which I'm building with overkill in mind.
Remember that downflow is better than up or sidways flow as the
flow then keeps the particles tightly packed. Activated carbon can
be desorbed for reuse by blowing hot clean air through it, if
expense is an issue. Be careful you don't set it on fire though.
>
> I use acrylic paint, also work with plaster, latex, gelatin, various
> stones, watercolors. I don't think artist's acrylics are a good sealer
> though and pretty expensive for furniture.
What is the solvent used in acrylic paint? MinWax Polycrylic
is a water-based claer wood finish. Those used to use some
petroleum distillates (I think ethers) and/or glycols and may
off-gas acetic acid or some such. as they cure.
>
> I'm wondering about the toxicity of PVA glue... they say children's
> glue is non-toxic... is it not really? Why not just thin it down and
> apply it heavily over everything?
Well I suppose it is not very hard and not very water-resistant.
Shellac may turn milky when exposed to water (some say that
dewaxed shellac does not) but water doesn't otherwise damage
it. Wax is great for adding gloss to wood either directly onto
smooth bare wood or over a finish but it is a very poor vapor
barrier.
The methanol in the shellac should pretty much all flash off or
outgas pretty quickly I would think. Small traces of methanol
are found in wine and liquors and even canned tomato jouce.
If you can tolerate those, shellac made with denatured alcohol
may not be a problem. But do check the label, many manufacturers
use other denaturants. At one time sulphuric acid was used but
probably discontinued as it was too easy to 'renature' it by
neutralizing the acid.
--
FF
[email protected] wrote:
> What is the solvent used in acrylic paint?
Water
> The methanol in the shellac should pretty much all flash off or
> outgas pretty quickly I would think.
That's what I thought. Thanks for the info.
SS
On 9 Dec 2005 08:28:36 -0800, [email protected] scribbled:
>http://www.casanz.org.au/Documents/tech%20papers/D.%20Mesaros%20paper%20Feb%2003.pdf
>http://www.maruhon.com/business/TVOCbasics.htm
>
>Ok, so softwoods outgas terpene and some other volatile oils. I wonder
>what kind of lumber would be least toxic for building a frame then?
Maple & birch, I suspect. We make syrup out of their sap, and I have
yet to learn of a maple syrup allergy or sensitivity. But beware of
spalted maple. All softwoods outgas stuff that turpentine is made
from, except for cedar and redwood but their resistance to rot means
there is nasty stuff in them. Forget all plywoods and other
laminated/composite wood products, they almost all outgas
formaldehyde.
Like Andy says, use hide glue (essentially gelatin) & shellac (a food,
used as a pill and candy coating) which uses plain old alcohol as a
solvent.
Do a search on wood toxicity. Also, look for MSDS (Material Safety
Data Sheet) on whatever you think of using, the sheets might have some
info on sensitivity.
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Woodworking
--FWIW a pal of mine does these retrofits for a living. Here's
a link to her site: http://www.SaferBuilding.com
--She was exposed to some nasty chemicals and is now
hypersensitive. 'When live gives you lemons', etc.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Nihil curo de ista tua
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : stulta superstitione...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
On 9 Dec 2005 08:08:04 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>I realize my post was lengthy, but you should read it all before you
>respond.
And you should do some basic research on the behaviours of the materials
you're now looking at using before asking questions.
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:12:27 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Resins *IN* wood products?
>
> Yes, the more resinous softwoods have quite an outgassing issue of their
> own.
Are you referring to their natural substances, or to something added by
people?
Fer Chrissake will you please calm down. Dingley is absolutely right.
Hardwood and shellac.
J.
[email protected] wrote:
> TO SUMMARIZE, I'm building NON-TOXIC studio and bedroom furniture and I
[BIG SNIP]
[email protected] wrote:
: Sounds to me like highly polished stainless steel would be the best
: option for materials. I don't know of any fiber based natural or
: man-made product that does not emit gasses at some time or another.
: Even high resin plastics release small traces of gas late in their
: product life. Have you ever noticed how plastics age and tend to yellow
: and dry out? I'm sure that the Finishing materials I use release gasses
: long after they are cured. Doesn't varnish, polyurethane, shellac, etc.
: dry to a porous finish as the gasses escape into the air?
Yes, although shellac rates tops for blocking water vapor (old FWW test)
with respect to other finishes (only a very thick wax finish -- like 1/8")
does better.
Whether this would extend to other gases, I dunno.
-- Andy Barss
On 8 Dec 2005 22:09:47 -0800, [email protected] scribbled:
>I also want to build BEDROOM FURNITURE:
>- 2 pine armoires
>- pine bench, flip-open storage
>
>The requirment for these projects is non-toxic too, but the difference
>is I want them to look good. I made the entertainment unit in the
>pictures from pine panels. What kind of glue do they use to join the
>wood together, should I be concerned at all? I'd like to use shellac to
>finish it, which I believe is as non-toxic as it gets, but I'm not sure
>about non-toxic stains and also non-toxic filler...?
1. Why stain at all? Unstained wood looks better than wood with RBS --
Red Brown Sh.., (TM Larry Jaques).
2. Filler can be wood dust mixed with shellac. That's what I use
often, and not for any toxicity/sensitivity reasons.
3. Pine panels can outgas nasties in the pine. they probably also use
a formaldehyde-based glue, but the only sure way to know is to ask the
manufacturer.
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Woodworking
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:12:27 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Resins *IN* wood products?
Yes, the more resinous softwoods have quite an outgassing issue of their
own.
On 8 Dec 2005 22:09:47 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>I'm building NON-TOXIC studio and bedroom furniture
No, you appear to be building stuff that's absolutely optimised for
outgassing. Why are you even thinking about using MDF? If you want to
_reduce_ this, work with hardwoods, glue with hide glue and finish with
shellac.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> TO SUMMARIZE, I'm building NON-TOXIC studio and bedroom furniture and I
> want to lay out my plans and get some direction from those with more
> experience. I'm pretty sick, have been for a while, I have chemical
> sensitivities, so the little bit of outgassing from plastics or various
> resins used in wood products is a problem for me.
Resins *IN* wood products? Did you mean *ON*? Forgetting plywood for the
moment, does a basic piece of oak or pine or whatever have man-made
substances added to it?