A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the brand)
for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance insert. I don't
know whether the insert was home-made or commercially available, what material
it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent
it from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through
the insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with a
block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep it from
lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and for some
reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block as he was
raising it while also holding the block in place with a push stick (one of
those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this
raise any red flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the blade, he
is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he had his left index
finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might expect the block shifted
around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs the block and virtually
*disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn
disintegrates the index finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and
fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The
doctors told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a finger
after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I
probably would have said the same thing.
Be careful out there.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 5/26/2012 9:27 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
>> is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods#5684918928011997682
>>
>> Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
>> saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.
>
> THAT, sir, looks nothing like a resawn frozen cat.
Au Contraire ... Note the faired curve of the handle, which artfully
mimics the naturally and gently curved tail of a contented, organic milk
fed, frozen push stick pussy.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
>> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
It's a fair bet that, somewhere along his journey to doing woodworking,
the guy in question got hurt from either never had been exposed to, or
misunderstanding, a concept that wasn't precisely stated and/or detailed
enough to rule out the inherent danger in his approach.
Problem with threads that deal with safety (and electrical issues) is
that the devil is in the smallest details, and it often takes a good
deal of discussing the innuendos and things that get left unanswered by
virtue of the medium ... those details that will bite someone in the ass
if left in doubt.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Mike Marlow wrote:
> More than one way to day most everything
> right. Lots of people who want to participate in the process of
> learning/growing/contributing. Too many that just can't seen to
> understand that.
"More than one way to day... should have been more than one way to DO.
Like I said - I can screw up pretty well...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:52:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too
>> many here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own
>> good. I've seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no
>> one escapes their wrath if they don't knuckle under.
>
> I understand what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much
> angst into what is said here. People are people and that means that
> some personalities are going to be try to dominate every conversation
> in this text format.
>
> I'd say almost without exception (almost with certain exceptions),
> that if most of us met in person, those dominate personalities would
> turn out to be the friendliest people you'd ever want to meet.
>
> What I'm trying to say is that it's this limited medium, and I do
> meant *LIMITED* that is causing the problem, not the people
> themselves. Take that for what it's worth Mike.
Absolutely - I do not disagree in any way.
Too much angst - again, like I told Mike - perhaps, since I can be the
quintencential idealist in this regard. That said - I just don't want to be
falsly accused because of those who wish they had bigger balls than they
really have. Those to whom it really matters to think they have a big set.
Wrongly accused - I've never backed down from that. The rest of this crap
is just the ego of folks that need to check themselves.
Geezus - since when did this group become a forum where everyone had to be
completely right and those of the rest of us could not articulate our
thoughts - even if they were wrong?
I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through google
and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned expert. I've seen
too many of those fools in my life...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>, Steve Turner
<[email protected]> wrote:
> BTW, I don't see too many other people jumping into this thread with a lack
> of
> understanding about how the accident happened, like you assured me they would.
Steve,
I KF'd Mike quite some time back. What you're seeing here is typical
behaviour on his part.
...and you just had to announce that to the world?
Any other insecurities we should know about? Would it help if we all
said we would follow your troll announcement?
-------
"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
news:270520121157490272%[email protected]...
Steve,
I KF'd Mike quite some time back. What you're seeing here is typical
behaviour on his part.
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
>>> against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
>>> to one of those voice recognition systems.
>>
>> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
>> on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
>> interested.
>
> Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
> the problem is with you and not them.
It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare my
words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one of the very
frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:29:43 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 5/26/2012 9:27 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
>>> is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:
>>>
>>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods#5684918928011997682
>>>
>>> Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
>>> saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.
>>
>> THAT, sir, looks nothing like a resawn frozen cat.
>
>Au Contraire ... Note the faired curve of the handle, which artfully
>mimics the naturally and gently curved tail of a contented, organic milk
>fed, frozen push stick pussy.
Newp, newp, newp. The curve fractals are all wrong for that.
--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)
On May 29, 11:58=A0am, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 5/29/2012 10:59 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Moro=
ns
> >>> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
>
> >> Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
> >> all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
> >> of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers wi=
ll
> >> have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
> >> woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
> >> A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.
>
> > I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
> > harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
> > TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.
>
> > Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
> > it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.
>
> With a few exceptions I probably have spent more time on a TS than most
> anyone in this group. =A0And I can say in all honestly that I have been
> seriously =A0hurt more than once. =A0I vividly remember that each time I =
was
> no longer cutting wood.
YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several
seconds after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small
parts I was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly
reached for it. The blade was still moving.
Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
> with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to
> keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
> sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade
> cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the block
> in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a notch at
> the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red flags with
> you yet?
*snip*
Those push sticks with a notch at the end are worthless. They're
dangerous partially because of where the pressure is applied and
partially because of the failure mode. If they break, they break fast!
and your hand will head in the direction pressure was applied, usually
TOWARDS THE BLADE.
Some time ago, someone on here passed on a piece of advice: Consider
what would happen (where your hands would go) if the wood suddenly
disappeared. This certainly applies to push sticks as well.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 5/28/2012 9:19 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpt wrote:
>>> On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Similar vintage; same fence...
>>>
>>> http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=9654
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>> But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
>> is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.
>
> He did say in his original post to use a shim to keep the insert from
> raising up.
>
> Nonetheless, a shim still won't keep modern fences that are only
> attached on one end from raising up.
>
> And that ain't "rocket science" either ...
Are we maybe worrying this problem to death? Seems to me that all the
back and forth has been enough to insure that everyone knows you need a
snug fit to prevent any movement on the horizontal plane and something
to prevent vertical movement.
This can be accomplished in any number of ways including with a fence
that doesn't lock down at the rear. Got a clamp handy?<g>
Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
concrete block atop that? Then, and this would apply to ANY means you
choose to use, raise the blade SLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLY through the zero
clearance insert.
On 5/28/2012 11:14 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:38:59 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>
>> Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
>> max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
>> concrete block atop that?
>
> Concrete and table saws don't strike me as a happy pair. But a 2x4 or
> 4x4 on top of the insert and clamped to the table, or to the rip fence if
> it's fastened at both ends, would work fine.
>
Read that paragraph again, Larry.
Twas hyperbole, that's all. Just meant weight on the 4x4 hold down
other than one's hand.
And, as the blade would be rising into a 4x4 (as previously stated), I
would have no problem lending my Forrest WWII to the scene as Swingman
suggests.
Steve Turner wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>> On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
>>>>> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun
>>>>> story. This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not
>>>>> sure
>>>>> of the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
>>>>> zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
>>>>> home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
>>>>> or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
>>>>> from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the
>>>>> blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>>>>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from
>>>>> above with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or
>>>>> what shape) to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The
>>>>> block was sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK
>>>>> to let the blade cut into the block as he was raising it while
>>>>> also holding the block in place with a push stick (one of those
>>>>> long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does
>>>>> this raise any red flags with you yet?
>>>>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise
>>>>> the blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I
>>>>> think he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and
>>>>> as you might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and
>>>>> WHAM! The blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates*
>>>>> it, which in turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn
>>>>> disintegrates the index finger on John's left hand. Ten
>>>>> different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and
>>>>> meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might be
>>>>> able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a
>>>>> half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to take it
>>>>> off. I probably would have said the same thing.
>>>>
>>>> I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
>>>> but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to
>>>> say that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this
>>>> should have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the
>>>> missing details, because this just does not seem that dangerous
>>>> (under one set of circumstances).
>>>
>>> Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
>>> through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
>>> from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
>>
>> Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in
>> detail to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original
>> explanation which explained how the accident happened.
>>
>> Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than
>> just I do not really understand exactly what happened.
>>
>> To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
>> meaningless.
>
> I read what you wrote; I didn't understand it because you kinda
> gorped up the words. "to say that done at least one way" - I don't
> know what that means.
Well then - how about asking for clarification? Instead you took a
different approach which attempted to make me look foolish. I do that well
enough on my own from time to time without any help...
>
> Did you read what I wrote? I said "while John is turning the crank
> with his right hand to raise the blade, he is holding the block in
> place with his left hand" (doing two things at once; a good recipe
> for getting distracted)
Oh bull - you often do two things at once with any number of tools. Absent
details, it is impossible to know what he was relly doing and if it was
indeed dangerous. It would be for example, quite common and quite
appropriate, when making a zero clearance plate, to hold it in place while
raising the blade. Your statement above is just wrong in its
generalization.
> and "the block shifted around a little bit".
Which leaves a ton to the imagination. "The block" - what block? What are
you refering to? You never explained how he was using "the block". What is
the doggoned block that you're referring to?
> Not surprising, using one of those long useless push-sticks with the
> notch at the end;
In my mind - with your weak explanation, I envisioned a push stick exactly
like the one Karl posted a link to. Hardly a useless push stick. But - the
explanation itself left too many questions in my mind because I could not
understand what you meant by what you were trying to say. The type of push
stick Karl posted is hardly a useless push stick, but one cannot tell from
your description what you meant. You could very well be wrong in your
assessment of the push stick, or you could equally be very correct - but I
could not tell from your description.
> in order to crank the blade up, you're not going to
> be in the best position for applying straight downward pressure,
You don't need to put your full weight on it Steve. I know that on my saw I
can indeed put enough down pressure on a piece while cranking up the blade.
> especially if your arm is up in the air while you're bent over to
> reach the crank.
It isn't. It's nearly in the normal operating position.
> I don't know what direction the wood moved (and
> "John" probably doesn't either), but any movement other than straight
> back would be BAD and an opportunity for the blade to catch.
Ok - you don't know. That's fair. All I said was that the operation he was
performing is done every day by woodworkers, and absent any futher detail,
it should have worked just fine. I don't know what he did that created his
problem, but it is not something that isn't and can't be done quite safely.
> A push
> stick is normally used to apply pressure to TWO reference surfaces
> (the table and fence) not just one. Do you often attempt to push wood
> through the blade without the assistance of a fence? Good luck if
> you do.
Now why in the world would you throw that question in there Steve? Red
Herring. Never made any mention of anything that should have resulted in
that.
I understand that your friend just experienced a severely traumatic event
and that it probably has a very significant effect upon you. Maybe best to
let this discussion lie for a day or two.
Hope he comes out of this... as well as he can.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:52:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too many
>here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own good. I've
>seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no one escapes their
>wrath if they don't knuckle under.
I understand what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much
angst into what is said here. People are people and that means that
some personalities are going to be try to dominate every conversation
in this text format.
I'd say almost without exception (almost with certain exceptions),
that if most of us met in person, those dominate personalities would
turn out to be the friendliest people you'd ever want to meet.
What I'm trying to say is that it's this limited medium, and I do
meant *LIMITED* that is causing the problem, not the people
themselves. Take that for what it's worth Mike.
On 5/26/2012 9:02 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> ...
>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
>> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
>> insert. ...
>> ...he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>>
>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
>> a block of wood ...
>>
>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
>> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
>> had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
>> expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
>> the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
>> the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger...
>
> Stupid wins again... :(
>
> --
Yeah I would say stupid lost.
On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
>> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>>
>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
>> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance insert.
>
>Ouch ... for me that's one of those operations that always causes the
>sphincter to pucker, even when it's done correctly (clamped down, from
>both ends, caul).
>
>Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
>tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
>of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).
>
>And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
>is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:
>
>https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods#5684918928011997682
>
>Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
>saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.
THAT, sir, looks nothing like a resawn frozen cat.
--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)
On 5/28/2012 9:38 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> Are we maybe worrying this problem to death? Seems to me that all the
> back and forth has been enough to insure that everyone knows you need a
> snug fit to prevent any movement on the horizontal plane and something
> to prevent vertical movement.
> This can be accomplished in any number of ways including with a fence
> that doesn't lock down at the rear. Got a clamp handy?<g>
LOL ... both of your points above have been previously addressed a
number of times, AND suddenly _you're_ concerned with "worrying the
problem to death" by bringing them up, again? ;)
> Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
> max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
> concrete block atop that? Then, and this would apply to ANY means you
> choose to use, raise the blade SLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLY through the zero
> clearance insert.
Sure, as long as I can use your $100+ carbide blade to do that ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/28/12 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>>>>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
>>>>> against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like
>>>>> talking to one of those voice recognition systems.
>>>>
>>>> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
>>>> on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
>>>> interested.
>>>
>>> Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
>>> the problem is with you and not them.
>>
>> It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare
>> my words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one
>> of the very frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.
>>
>
> That's kind of my point. You always seem to get in these little
> semantic arguments with everyone and you just won't let them go. Is
> it everyone else who can't understand you, cannot or do not read,
> infers different meanings from everything you write.... or is it
> maybe you who have the difficulty communicating via text format?
Mike - that may well be a point well taken, and for what it's worth, that
thought is not lost on me. My point is that I have observed this pattern
throughout the group - regardless of the participants. I won't suggest my
participation is any less, or even any more reflective of that. I do admit
that I am the kind of guy that does not let go of these these things soon
enough - again - to your point. But... that's a common thing in this group.
In the case of the above exchange between the two of us - that would
represent something that I hold very dearly. It's one thing to call a guy
on something he actually says. It's quite something else to take his words
to some different statement. I may die a struggling idealist, but that is a
real bug point for me.
There's a lot of macho pride here that just does not like anything they say
being questioned in any way. Once that happens, the ad-homenums start
flying as well as the red herrings that have nothing to do with anything
that had been said - all to make the author feel more manly. I just don't
have much time for that behavior.
Like I have said in the past - I can screw up a lot of things. I really
don't have a problem with that admission. But I do value honest exchange
and honest conversation. Sometimes misunderstandings will occur, and if
pursued honestly, they will be resolved. Around here - there's just too
much of the "I know what you meant... (regardless of what you try to say -
and clarify), " and "I suppose you also...", and those who derive their
sense of value by derriding those around them. It's evident in all of their
posts. Not just within the group - everyone they talk about is somehow
lesser than them. Oh well...
I just don't play life that way. I'm a lot more intrigued by things,
interested in the things I participate in, and concerned for both offering
what I know, and learning new things, than I am for all of the ego that
exists here.
I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too many
here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own good. I've
seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no one escapes their
wrath if they don't knuckle under. Lots of great talent and knowledge here.
More than one way to day most everything right. Lots of people who want to
participate in the process of learning/growing/contributing. Too many that
just can't seen to understand that.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 5/27/2012 2:47 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> ....
>>
>>> While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
>>> catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
>>> less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
>>> movement.
>>
>> Never seen it...
> ...
>
> Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's
> needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the
> cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the opening
> in which case it won't be precise, anyway.
Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy
is indeed using a PM 66 fence. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
FastForward to 2:25, if so inclined.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
...and you just had to announce that to the world?
==========================================================
Yep. Plonk.
Dave is getting wasted. He has so much to say and nobody is listening.
---------
"-MIKE-" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
You'll fit. No one one in our group is getting wasted.
On 5/29/2012 10:59 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
>>> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
>>>
>>
>> Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
>> all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
>> of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
>> have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
>> woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
>> A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.
>
>
> I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
> harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
> TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.
>
> Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
> it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.
>
>
With a few exceptions I probably have spent more time on a TS than most
anyone in this group. And I can say in all honestly that I have been
seriously hurt more than once. I vividly remember that each time I was
no longer cutting wood.
Whaaaaaa!!!!
That really hurt, trollboi.
--
"CW" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Yep. Plonk
--
"m II" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
...and you just had to announce that to the world?
On 5/26/2012 11:52 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:
>
>> Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
>> tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
>> of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).
>
> Since I've never seen a folding one, I'll guess you meant the two
> straight sticks with a hinge at the top and a stop at the bottom of one
> stick. Either way, I agree with you. I made one of those, used it once,
> and threw it away. Perhaps a new daffynition:
>
> Tapering jig - a device to make the most dangerous power tool even more
> dangerous!
Yep, that's it. One of the problems is you can't just cheat death with
it once, you usually have to do it TWICE for each of four table legs.
When using one, by the end of the second leg I had to take a break and
mentally steel myself for the last two. By the end of the fourth leg I
was always a wincing bundle of nerves.
IIRC, I barely managed to go through that twice before I built this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods#5717217667358454546
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Dave was a psychiatrist before he cut his legs off on a table saw. His
shrink degree was just honorary from his experience with his large
experience with drug trials anyway.
Relax. You have a short fuse but so do many others. If we didn't like
he rest of you we could all just grow up and use our killfilters. You
may just be having a bad time. Didn't you ever have one of those lives
where nothing goes right?
Now Dave is a completely different matter. His opinion is always
abrasive even though I killfiltered him before he even posted the first
time and have never read any of them.
------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:52:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too
>> many here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own
>> good. I've seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no
>> one escapes their wrath if they don't knuckle under.
>
> I understand what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much
> angst into what is said here. People are people and that means that
> some personalities are going to be try to dominate every conversation
> in this text format.
>
> I'd say almost without exception (almost with certain exceptions),
> that if most of us met in person, those dominate personalities would
> turn out to be the friendliest people you'd ever want to meet.
>
> What I'm trying to say is that it's this limited medium, and I do
> meant *LIMITED* that is causing the problem, not the people
> themselves. Take that for what it's worth Mike.
Absolutely - I do not disagree in any way.
Too much angst - again, like I told Mike - perhaps, since I can be the
quintencential idealist in this regard. That said - I just don't want
to be
falsly accused because of those who wish they had bigger balls than
they
really have. Those to whom it really matters to think they have a big
set.
Wrongly accused - I've never backed down from that. The rest of this
crap
is just the ego of folks that need to check themselves.
Geezus - since when did this group become a forum where everyone had to
be
completely right and those of the rest of us could not articulate our
thoughts - even if they were wrong?
I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through
google
and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned expert. I've
seen
too many of those fools in my life...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Steve Turner wrote:
> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>
> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
> the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or
> commercially available, what material it was made of, or whether it
> had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting,
> etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through the
> insert to cut the opening.
> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
> with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
> to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
> sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
> blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
> block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
> notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
> flags with you yet?
> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
> he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
> might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
> blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn
> disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index
> finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in
> his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors
> told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a
> finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to
> take it off. I probably would have said the same thing.
> Be careful out there.
that was an accident waiting to happen from the beginning.
He should have clamped a strip across the top and just raised the blade
and would have been done in 2 minutes.
Never underestimate the POWER of a power tool....ever. RESPECT
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>
> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance insert.
Ouch ... for me that's one of those operations that always causes the
sphincter to pucker, even when it's done correctly (clamped down, from
both ends, caul).
Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).
And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods#5684918928011997682
Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
>> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>>
>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
>> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
>> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
>> available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
>> protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
>> that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>>
>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
>> a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
>> it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
>> for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
>> as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
>> stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
>> things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?
>>
>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
>> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
>> had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
>> expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
>> the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
>> the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
>> left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
>> tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
>> be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
>> more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
>> have said the same thing.
>>
>> Be careful out there.
>>
>
> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
>
Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.
Steve Turner wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
>>> against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
>>> to one of those voice recognition systems.
>>
>> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
>> on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
>> interested.
>
> I don't seem to have any problem talking with others. You're the one
> who is always jumping into a perfectly understandable conversation
> and taking it off into the weeds of your own misunderstanding, adding
> complexity where there is none. I don't know how many times I've
> seen you adding nothing but circularity and confusion to a
> conversation, while at the same time chastising other people for
> their inability to explain things in a way that YOU can understand
> them.
> BTW, I don't see too many other people jumping into this thread with
> a lack of understanding about how the accident happened, like you
> assured me they would.
That's fine. See ya Steve.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On May 29, 7:03=A0am, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>
> Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
> all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
> of what preventative measures they take .....
True and it isn't always the blade of a power tool that gets you.
About 10-12 years ago a friend on our son was passing narrow strips of
hardwood through a thickness planer when the lift mechanism failed
and it threw a strip back at him. It entered his abdomen near his
right side and the end went through him. Missed the important stuff,
and the guys with him had enough sense to leave it in until the EMT's
got there. He spent a couple days in the hospital and was released.
Would that ever happen again? No, but it is just an example of how
feed paths on any tool can be as dangerous as a table saw.
Ron
On May 29, 4:58=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> > YUP - Me too. =A0The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several
> > seconds after the motor was turned off. =A0I realized one of the small
> > parts I was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly
> > reached for it. =A0The blade was still moving.
>
> Damn! =A0I did almost the same except I was reaching for the far end of
> the rip fence to remove it, after cutting dado's, after turning the
> motor off.
Ya know, I came to the conclusion that whether the motor is running or
not, it still hurts like hell!
Ron :o)
On 5/27/2012 12:32 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> Thank you Karl. I may not be the BEST at explaining things, but
> hopefully with the addition of your concise clarification, no other
> readers of this group will be tempted to try the boneheaded method that
> caused my acquaintance to lose his finger.
Actually, you nailed it previously. You have now experienced the fact
that some of the participation here has been reduced to taking trivial
exception to your statement(s), then proceeding to quibble to the point
that it becomes _your_ fault in the caviler's publicly expressed mind.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Steve Turner wrote:
>
> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But
> trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking to one of
> those voice recognition systems.
Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>
> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
> available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
> protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
> that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>
> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
> a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
> it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
> for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
> as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
> stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
> things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?
>
> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
> had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
> expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
> the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
> the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
> left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
> tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
> be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
> more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
> have said the same thing.
>
> Be careful out there.
>
just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpt wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
>> ...
>>
>> Similar vintage; same fence...
>>
>> http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=9654
>>
>> --
>>
>
> But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
> is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.
He did say in his original post to use a shim to keep the insert from
raising up.
Nonetheless, a shim still won't keep modern fences that are only
attached on one end from raising up.
And that ain't "rocket science" either ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On May 26, 12:52=A0pm, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:
> > Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminu=
m
> > tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
> > of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).
>
> Since I've never seen a folding one, I'll guess you meant the two
> straight sticks with a hinge at the top and a stop at the bottom of one
> stick. =A0Either way, I agree with you. =A0I made one of those, used it o=
nce,
> and threw it away.
A sled-type jig with wooden hold downs is almost as
easy to make and a lot easier to feed without it being
thrown into your face.
Steve Turner wrote:
> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>
> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
> the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or
> commercially available, what material it was made of, or whether it
> had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting,
> etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through the
> insert to cut the opening.
> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
> with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
> to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
> sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
> blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
> block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
> notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
> flags with you yet?
> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
> he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
> might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
> blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn
> disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index
> finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in
> his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors
> told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a
> finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to
> take it off. I probably would have said the same thing.
I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have, but for
the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say that I question
it - to say that done at least one way, this should have worked just fine.
I would be very curious about the missing details, because this just does
not seem that dangerous (under one set of circumstances).
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Swingman wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 12:32 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
>
>> Thank you Karl. I may not be the BEST at explaining things, but
>> hopefully with the addition of your concise clarification, no other
>> readers of this group will be tempted to try the boneheaded method
>> that caused my acquaintance to lose his finger.
>
> Actually, you nailed it previously. You have now experienced the fact
> that some of the participation here has been reduced to taking trivial
> exception to your statement(s), then proceeding to quibble to the
> point that it becomes _your_ fault in the caviler's publicly
> expressed mind.
Nice try - but incorrect.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I tried staying out of this one.
So here's what I do.
I put in my dado blade. Just one of the blades from the end of the
stack. It's smaller than 10" I think I have a 6" but it could be 8".
That allows me to cut right upto where it peaks through safely.
Then I change out to my regular blade and bring it all the way up for a
nice zero clearance. The dado blade gives me enough room to put the 10"
blade without hitting the bottom of the plate. You could route it out too..
I have never had a problem, the dowel pin I put in the back is enough to
hold it, but I put a board over it off to the side of the blade clamped
down so I can see it poke through. I usualy will use the sacrificial
fence as that board.
I find it safer than trying to hold the plate on top of the existing
plate. That just scares me.
On 5/25/2012 11:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>
> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
> available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
> protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
> that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>
> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
> a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
> it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
> for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
> as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
> stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
> things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?
>
> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
> had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
> expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
> the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
> the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
> left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
> tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
> be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
> more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
> have said the same thing.
>
> Be careful out there.
>
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> I think you need to join our next beer summit hangout on Google+
> It's a lot more fun to joke around with each other shoot the sh!t when
> you can see each other and you're all a little buzzed. :-)
Oh great - the non-drinker... what a fit, huh? (joke...)
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:21:26 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
>civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.
Ok, I have to ask. You've been pretty volatile here lately. Certainly
more so in the past few months. What has changed? Something appears to
have set you off.
On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
> ...
>
>> The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
> ...
>
> Similar vintage; same fence...
>
> http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=9654
>
> --
>
But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.
Steve Turner wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
>>> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>>>
>>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
>>> the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
>>> zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
>>> home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
>>> or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
>>> from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade
>>> through the insert to cut the opening.
>>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
>>> with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
>>> to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
>>> sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
>>> blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
>>> block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
>>> notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
>>> flags with you yet?
>>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
>>> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
>>> he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
>>> might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
>>> blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in
>>> turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the
>>> index finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and
>>> fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the
>>> bone. The doctors told him they might be able to return it to some
>>> semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he
>>> just told them to take it off. I probably would have said the same
>>> thing.
>>
>> I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
>> but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say
>> that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this should
>> have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the missing
>> details, because this just does not seem that dangerous (under one
>> set of circumstances).
>
> Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
> through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
> from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in detail
to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original explanation which
explained how the accident happened.
Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than just I do
not really understand exactly what happened.
To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
meaningless.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On May 26, 9:59=A0pm, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:02:15 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
> > A sled-type jig with wooden hold downs is almost as easy to make and a
> > lot easier to feed without it being thrown into your face.
>
> Agreed. =A0I should have mentioned that myself. =A0The same sled comes in
> handy for cutting angles more acute than a miter gauge allows.
Makes a decent jointer, too.
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
personally). :)
The approach used in this instance is absolutely guaranteed to have such
"dire consequences", exactly as it did.
IOW, this was NOT an accident, it was a guaranteed outcome with an
almost 100% chance of failure, catastrophic of otherwise.
What happened is an absolute indication of inexperience with a table saw
or, less likely, but more charitably, a momentary case of the stupids on
the part of the amputee.
Simply put, the only way safe for a two handed woodworker, working
alone, to accomplish this job is to use a _mechanical_ method that will
apply a stable and _consistent_ downward force on the insert that is
greater than the upward force of both the rotating blade teeth, and the
elevating mechanism.
IOW it is not something you want to attempt to accomplish alone, with
just two available hands ... i.e, one turning the elevation crank, and
the other attempting to apply the necessary downward force in any
manner, INCLUDING USING A PUSH STICK OF ANY DESIGN.
Except for the upward force on the insert, Steve stated the other
problem clearly and concisely in a subsequent post:
On 5/26/2012 9:41 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
> through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
> from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
He has been attempting to communicate with the troll crowd. He even has
a nailgun set up to protect his home from them. Reason enough?
--------
"Dave" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Ok, I have to ask. You've been pretty volatile here lately. Certainly
more so in the past few months. What has changed? Something appears to
have set you off.
------
On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:21:26 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on
>a
>civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.
On Sun, 27 May 2012 15:06:49 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 5/27/2012 2:47 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> ....
>>>
>>>> While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
>>>> catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
>>>> less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
>>>> movement.
>>>
>>> Never seen it...
>> ...
>>
>> Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's
>> needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the
>> cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the opening
>> in which case it won't be precise, anyway.
>
>Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy
>is indeed using a PM 66 fence. :)
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
>
>FastForward to 2:25, if so inclined.
Thanks Karl, though I've been successful with the fence method, but
there is alway the one time. Working as a commercial electrician
after many safety meeting had it drilled into my head to not stand in
front of 480 volt services when first turned on. They occasionally
explode. So stand to the side or best option is have the apprentice
do it. I thank you for the link as I prefer to keep the functioning
parts of my body out of the danger zone.
Mike M
On 5/29/2012 6:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 29 May 2012 16:58:10 -0500, Leon wrote:
>
>>> YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several seconds
>>> after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small parts I
>>> was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly reached for
>>> it. The blade was still moving.
>>
>> Damn! I did almost the same except I was reaching for the far end of
>> the rip fence to remove it, after cutting dado's, after turning the
>> motor off.
>
> That makes 3 of us - luckily not too serious a cut.
I filet'd my right thumb and have the 13 stitch scar to prove it, all
from installing an overhead guard on a table saw, unplugged and with no
blade ... it was classified in the ER as a "table saw injury", and is
part of the statistics for that type of injury.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Some time ago, someone on here passed on a piece of advice: Consider
what would happen (where your hands would go) if the wood suddenly
disappeared. This certainly applies to push sticks as well.
Puckdropper
--
EXACTLY what I tell my students.
It also helps to point out the fact that if you are pushing towards the
blade when the wood disappeared, you will not stop your hand in time.
-- Jim in NC
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
...
> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
> insert. ...
> ...he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>
> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
> a block of wood ...
>
> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
> had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
> expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
> the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
> the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger...
Stupid wins again... :(
--
On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:
> Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
> tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
> of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).
Since I've never seen a folding one, I'll guess you meant the two
straight sticks with a hinge at the top and a stop at the bottom of one
stick. Either way, I agree with you. I made one of those, used it once,
and threw it away. Perhaps a new daffynition:
Tapering jig - a device to make the most dangerous power tool even more
dangerous!
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
On 5/26/2012 8:11 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
...
> So here's what I do.
...
> I have never had a problem, the dowel pin I put in the back is enough to
> hold it, but I put a board over it off to the side of the blade clamped
> down so I can see it poke through. I usualy will use the sacrificial
> fence as that board.
>
> I find it safer than trying to hold the plate on top of the existing
> plate. That just scares me.
...
This isn't rocket science here, folks! :)
Just put the fence over the side of the plate clear of the blade by a
safe margin so you don't hit it, stick a shim under it to keep the plate
from climbing and raise away.
--
On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:02:15 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
> A sled-type jig with wooden hold downs is almost as easy to make and a
> lot easier to feed without it being thrown into your face.
Agreed. I should have mentioned that myself. The same sled comes in
handy for cutting angles more acute than a miter gauge allows.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
>> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>>
>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
>> the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
>> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or
>> commercially available, what material it was made of, or whether it
>> had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting,
>> etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through the
>> insert to cut the opening.
>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
>> with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
>> to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
>> sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
>> blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
>> block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
>> notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
>> flags with you yet?
>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
>> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
>> he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
>> might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
>> blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn
>> disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index
>> finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in
>> his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors
>> told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a
>> finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to
>> take it off. I probably would have said the same thing.
>
> I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have, but for
> the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say that I question
> it - to say that done at least one way, this should have worked just fine.
> I would be very curious about the missing details, because this just does
> not seem that dangerous (under one set of circumstances).
Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up through the
center of a block of wood that has no real protection from side-to-side or
front-to-back movement?
--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:49:46 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through
>> google and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned
>> expert. I've seen too many of those fools in my life...
>
> But, that's the point here. You're not seeing them, it's just talk.
> Talk without a face and all the inflections and mannerisms behind it
> has to be taken with a large grain of salt.
>
> Let it go. It's not all that difficult to take the real stuff for what
> it's worth and discard the rest. Again, let it go.
Point taken.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:49:46 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through google
>and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned expert. I've seen
>too many of those fools in my life...
But, that's the point here. You're not seeing them, it's just talk.
Talk without a face and all the inflections and mannerisms behind it
has to be taken with a large grain of salt.
Let it go. It's not all that difficult to take the real stuff for what
it's worth and discard the rest. Again, let it go.
dpb wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 8:11 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> ...
>
>> So here's what I do.
> ...
>> I have never had a problem, the dowel pin I put in the back is enough to
>> hold it, but I put a board over it off to the side of the blade clamped
>> down so I can see it poke through. I usualy will use the sacrificial
>> fence as that board.
>>
>> I find it safer than trying to hold the plate on top of the existing
>> plate. That just scares me.
> ...
>
> This isn't rocket science here, folks! :)
Yes, doing it right is easy. The problem is that doing it wrong is
just as easy! I would do as you suggested below.
I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
>
> Just put the fence over the side of the plate clear of the blade by a
> safe margin so you don't hit it, stick a shim under it to keep the plate
> from climbing and raise away.
>
> --
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
...
> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
...
Well, it was a silly way to go about it for starters; depending on the
saw how far the reach was could make it problematic to do both at once
(and apparently did).
--
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
>>>> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>>>>
>>>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
>>>> the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
>>>> zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
>>>> home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
>>>> or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
>>>> from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade
>>>> through the insert to cut the opening.
>>>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
>>>> with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
>>>> to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
>>>> sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
>>>> blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
>>>> block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
>>>> notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
>>>> flags with you yet?
>>>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
>>>> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
>>>> he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
>>>> might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
>>>> blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in
>>>> turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the
>>>> index finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and
>>>> fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the
>>>> bone. The doctors told him they might be able to return it to some
>>>> semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he
>>>> just told them to take it off. I probably would have said the same
>>>> thing.
>>>
>>> I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
>>> but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say
>>> that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this should
>>> have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the missing
>>> details, because this just does not seem that dangerous (under one
>>> set of circumstances).
>>
>> Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
>> through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
>> from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
>
> Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in detail
> to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original explanation which
> explained how the accident happened.
>
> Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than just I do
> not really understand exactly what happened.
>
> To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
> meaningless.
I read what you wrote; I didn't understand it because you kinda gorped up the
words. "to say that done at least one way" - I don't know what that means.
Did you read what I wrote? I said "while John is turning the crank with his
right hand to raise the blade, he is holding the block in place with his left
hand" (doing two things at once; a good recipe for getting distracted) and "the
block shifted around a little bit". Not surprising, using one of those long
useless push-sticks with the notch at the end; in order to crank the blade up,
you're not going to be in the best position for applying straight downward
pressure, especially if your arm is up in the air while you're bent over to
reach the crank. I don't know what direction the wood moved (and "John"
probably doesn't either), but any movement other than straight back would be
BAD and an opportunity for the blade to catch. A push stick is normally used
to apply pressure to TWO reference surfaces (the table and fence) not just one.
Do you often attempt to push wood through the blade without the assistance of
a fence? Good luck if you do.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 5/26/2012 11:28 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>> On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>>>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
>>>>>> another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun
>>>>>> story. This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not
>>>>>> sure
>>>>>> of the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
>>>>>> zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
>>>>>> home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
>>>>>> or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
>>>>>> from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the
>>>>>> blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>>>>>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from
>>>>>> above with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or
>>>>>> what shape) to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The
>>>>>> block was sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK
>>>>>> to let the blade cut into the block as he was raising it while
>>>>>> also holding the block in place with a push stick (one of those
>>>>>> long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does
>>>>>> this raise any red flags with you yet?
>>>>>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise
>>>>>> the blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I
>>>>>> think he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and
>>>>>> as you might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and
>>>>>> WHAM! The blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates*
>>>>>> it, which in turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn
>>>>>> disintegrates the index finger on John's left hand. Ten
>>>>>> different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and
>>>>>> meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might be
>>>>>> able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a
>>>>>> half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to take it
>>>>>> off. I probably would have said the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
>>>>> but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to
>>>>> say that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this
>>>>> should have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the
>>>>> missing details, because this just does not seem that dangerous
>>>>> (under one set of circumstances).
>>>>
>>>> Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
>>>> through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
>>>> from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
>>>
>>> Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in
>>> detail to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original
>>> explanation which explained how the accident happened.
>>>
>>> Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than
>>> just I do not really understand exactly what happened.
>>>
>>> To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
>>> meaningless.
>>
>> I read what you wrote; I didn't understand it because you kinda
>> gorped up the words. "to say that done at least one way" - I don't
>> know what that means.
>
> Well then - how about asking for clarification? Instead you took a
> different approach which attempted to make me look foolish. I do that well
> enough on my own from time to time without any help...
>
>>
>> Did you read what I wrote? I said "while John is turning the crank
>> with his right hand to raise the blade, he is holding the block in
>> place with his left hand" (doing two things at once; a good recipe
>> for getting distracted)
>
> Oh bull - you often do two things at once with any number of tools. Absent
> details, it is impossible to know what he was relly doing and if it was
> indeed dangerous. It would be for example, quite common and quite
> appropriate, when making a zero clearance plate, to hold it in place while
> raising the blade. Your statement above is just wrong in its
> generalization.
"Quite common and quite appropriate ... to hold it in place while raising the
blade." Yes, but not with a block of wood OVER the blade, with the blade
coming up through it, and holding the block in place effectively BY HAND
instead of clamping it so that it can't shift. I don't trust myself not to let
that block shift around. If you think this is a safe operation, then I damn
sure don't want to be taking safety tips from you. I'll stand 10 or 15 feet
off to the side while I watch you tempt Lady Luck.
>> and "the block shifted around a little bit".
>
> Which leaves a ton to the imagination. "The block" - what block? What are
> you refering to? You never explained how he was using "the block". What is
> the doggoned block that you're referring to?
You just flat-out can't read. "So John installs the insert and proceeds to
hold it down from above with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or
what shape)". Do you want me to call him and find out the particulars? The
species perhaps?
>> Not surprising, using one of those long useless push-sticks with the
>> notch at the end;
>
> In my mind - with your weak explanation, I envisioned a push stick exactly
> like the one Karl posted a link to. Hardly a useless push stick. But - the
> explanation itself left too many questions in my mind because I could not
> understand what you meant by what you were trying to say. The type of push
> stick Karl posted is hardly a useless push stick, but one cannot tell from
> your description what you meant. You could very well be wrong in your
> assessment of the push stick, or you could equally be very correct - but I
> could not tell from your description.
What the hell? How much more descriptive do I have to be? One of these, OK?
http://www.craftsmanspace.com/sites/default/files/free-plans-articles/notched_push_stick.jpg
Useless damn things. And you can only apply downward pressure to the leading
edge. The back side of the block is free to lift, where it's most prone to
lift, where the blade is coming UP through the slot.
>> in order to crank the blade up, you're not going to
>> be in the best position for applying straight downward pressure,
>
> You don't need to put your full weight on it Steve. I know that on my saw I
> can indeed put enough down pressure on a piece while cranking up the blade.
>
>
>> especially if your arm is up in the air while you're bent over to
>> reach the crank.
>
> It isn't. It's nearly in the normal operating position.
You were there, huh?
>> I don't know what direction the wood moved (and
>> "John" probably doesn't either), but any movement other than straight
>> back would be BAD and an opportunity for the blade to catch.
>
> Ok - you don't know. That's fair. All I said was that the operation he was
> performing is done every day by woodworkers, and absent any futher detail,
Bullshit. Not in the way HE was doing it, and it appears that I gave enough
detail that a dozen or so other people seemed to think it was a stupid thing to do.
> it should have worked just fine. I don't know what he did that created his
> problem, but it is not something that isn't and can't be done quite safely.
Like I said, I won't be taking any safety tips from you any time soon.
>> A push
>> stick is normally used to apply pressure to TWO reference surfaces
>> (the table and fence) not just one. Do you often attempt to push wood
>> through the blade without the assistance of a fence? Good luck if
>> you do.
>
> Now why in the world would you throw that question in there Steve? Red
> Herring. Never made any mention of anything that should have resulted in
> that.
To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to shifting around
with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But trying to hold a
conversation with you is like talking to one of those voice recognition systems.
> I understand that your friend just experienced a severely traumatic event
> and that it probably has a very significant effect upon you. Maybe best to
> let this discussion lie for a day or two.
He's an acquaintance not a friend, and the only real effect it's had on me is
as a learning experience of what NOT to do when cutting a zero-clearance
insert. Not that I ever would have done it that way to begin with. Just
thinking about his approach makes my sphincter pucker. If I had been there
watching him, I would have stopped him before he ever hit the power button and
smacked him upside the head.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 5/27/2012 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
>
>>
>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But
>> trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking to one of
>> those voice recognition systems.
>
> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
> civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.
I don't seem to have any problem talking with others. You're the one who is
always jumping into a perfectly understandable conversation and taking it off
into the weeds of your own misunderstanding, adding complexity where there is
none. I don't know how many times I've seen you adding nothing but circularity
and confusion to a conversation, while at the same time chastising other people
for their inability to explain things in a way that YOU can understand them.
BTW, I don't see too many other people jumping into this thread with a lack of
understanding about how the accident happened, like you assured me they would.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 5/27/2012 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
>> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
>
> No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with using a
> table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that personally). :)
>
> The approach used in this instance is absolutely guaranteed to have such "dire
> consequences", exactly as it did.
>
> IOW, this was NOT an accident, it was a guaranteed outcome with an almost 100%
> chance of failure, catastrophic of otherwise.
>
> What happened is an absolute indication of inexperience with a table saw or,
> less likely, but more charitably, a momentary case of the stupids on the part
> of the amputee.
>
> Simply put, the only way safe for a two handed woodworker, working alone, to
> accomplish this job is to use a _mechanical_ method that will apply a stable
> and _consistent_ downward force on the insert that is greater than the upward
> force of both the rotating blade teeth, and the elevating mechanism.
>
> IOW it is not something you want to attempt to accomplish alone, with just two
> available hands ... i.e, one turning the elevation crank, and the other
> attempting to apply the necessary downward force in any manner, INCLUDING USING
> A PUSH STICK OF ANY DESIGN.
>
> Except for the upward force on the insert, Steve stated the other problem
> clearly and concisely in a subsequent post:
>
> On 5/26/2012 9:41 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> > Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
> > through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
> > from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
>
> For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely how to
> accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
>
> For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything anyone has
> said, or will say, to the contrary.
Thank you Karl. I may not be the BEST at explaining things, but hopefully with
the addition of your concise clarification, no other readers of this group will
be tempted to try the boneheaded method that caused my acquaintance to lose his
finger.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
...
> While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
> catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
> less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight movement.
Never seen it...
>
> I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use
> this method with complete satisfaction.
Perhaps altho I can't envision the fence being that flexible and being
able of providing "complete satisfaction" in normal operations if so.
I've the original PM 66 fence. If the UniFence is indeed that unstable,
throw a clamp on the ass end to hold it down.
--
On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
> ....
>
>> While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
>> catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
>> less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
>> movement.
>
> Never seen it...
...
Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's
needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the
cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the
opening in which case it won't be precise, anyway.
--
On 5/27/2012 3:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
...
> Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy
> is indeed using a PM 66 fence. :)
...
That's their equivalent of a Biesemeyer; not the original, original.
The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
If not what you got then find another method; that's not rocket
science, either.
--
Swingman wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
>> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
>
> No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
> using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
> personally). :)
None taken. I haven't used a TS since high school, so I'm quite open
to learning good technique. I watched the video twice, it has
"everything" one would need to know (and more technique than most folks
probably use).
I'm still getting by with an old, but solid, CS I picked up at auction
for about $10. No one seems to like tailed-tools (but I do, since I
don't use them everyday, or even every week). It worked on sawing the
workbench parts (almost done). We finally cleaned-up, touched-up, and
hung today the 4'x3' framed mirror I asked about last month. Inexpensive
wax-like "blend sticks", worked nicely for touching-up some bare gouge
marks. I only used the black one and got an "invisible" repair. I have
also had good luck, on another piece, with the "colored markers" you
mentioned.
Bill
<snip>
> For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
> how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
>
> For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
> anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.
>
On 5/27/2012 10:22 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
>>> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
>>
>> No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
>> using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
>> personally). :)
>
> None taken. I haven't used a TS since high school, so I'm quite open to
> learning good technique. I watched the video twice, it has "everything"
> one would need to know (and more technique than most folks probably use).
Well! He wasn't wearing ear muffs, using a face mask, gas mask, blade
guard, chain link gloves, or even a saw stop. He was wasting a good
size hunk of tree which could only result in more carbon dioxide and
less oxygen, so I hardly think his technique had "EVERYTHING" covered.
Not by a long, hand ringing shot.
What really bothers me is after over 50+ years of using notched push
sticks, often two at a time, I find out they are sooner or later going
to rip off a fing-ee or two when they explode...
To be perfectly safe, he should have asked his neighbor/wife/mom to do
the dirty deed whilst he hid in the wood shed, or watched re-runs of Law
and Order.
>> For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
>> anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.
Ignore me at your own risk...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:38:59 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
> max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
> concrete block atop that?
Concrete and table saws don't strike me as a happy pair. But a 2x4 or
4x4 on top of the insert and clamped to the table, or to the rip fence if
it's fastened at both ends, would work fine.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
>
>>
>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But
>> trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking to one of
>> those voice recognition systems.
>
> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
> civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.
>
Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe the
problem is with you and not them.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 5/28/12 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>>>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
>>>> against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
>>>> to one of those voice recognition systems.
>>>
>>> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
>>> on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
>>> interested.
>>
>> Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
>> the problem is with you and not them.
>
> It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare my
> words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one of the very
> frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.
>
That's kind of my point. You always seem to get in these little semantic
arguments with everyone and you just won't let them go. Is it everyone
else who can't understand you, cannot or do not read, infers different
meanings from everything you write.... or is it maybe you who have the
difficulty communicating via text format?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 5/28/12 6:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/28/12 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>>>>>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
>>>>>> against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like
>>>>>> talking to one of those voice recognition systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
>>>>> on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
>>>>> interested.
>>>>
>>>> Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
>>>> the problem is with you and not them.
>>>
>>> It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare
>>> my words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one
>>> of the very frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.
>>>
>>
>> That's kind of my point. You always seem to get in these little
>> semantic arguments with everyone and you just won't let them go. Is
>> it everyone else who can't understand you, cannot or do not read,
>> infers different meanings from everything you write.... or is it
>> maybe you who have the difficulty communicating via text format?
>
> Mike - that may well be a point well taken, and for what it's worth, that
> thought is not lost on me. My point is that I have observed this pattern
> throughout the group - regardless of the participants. I won't suggest my
> participation is any less, or even any more reflective of that. I do admit
> that I am the kind of guy that does not let go of these these things soon
> enough - again - to your point. But... that's a common thing in this group.
>
> In the case of the above exchange between the two of us - that would
> represent something that I hold very dearly. It's one thing to call a guy
> on something he actually says. It's quite something else to take his words
> to some different statement. I may die a struggling idealist, but that is a
> real bug point for me.
>
> There's a lot of macho pride here that just does not like anything they say
> being questioned in any way. Once that happens, the ad-homenums start
> flying as well as the red herrings that have nothing to do with anything
> that had been said - all to make the author feel more manly. I just don't
> have much time for that behavior.
>
> Like I have said in the past - I can screw up a lot of things. I really
> don't have a problem with that admission. But I do value honest exchange
> and honest conversation. Sometimes misunderstandings will occur, and if
> pursued honestly, they will be resolved. Around here - there's just too
> much of the "I know what you meant... (regardless of what you try to say -
> and clarify), " and "I suppose you also...", and those who derive their
> sense of value by derriding those around them. It's evident in all of their
> posts. Not just within the group - everyone they talk about is somehow
> lesser than them. Oh well...
>
> I just don't play life that way. I'm a lot more intrigued by things,
> interested in the things I participate in, and concerned for both offering
> what I know, and learning new things, than I am for all of the ego that
> exists here.
>
> I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too many
> here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own good. I've
> seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no one escapes their
> wrath if they don't knuckle under. Lots of great talent and knowledge here.
> More than one way to day most everything right. Lots of people who want to
> participate in the process of learning/growing/contributing. Too many that
> just can't seen to understand that.
>
I think you need to join our next beer summit hangout on Google+
It's a lot more fun to joke around with each other shoot the sh!t when
you can see each other and you're all a little buzzed. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Steve Turner wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
>>>> shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
>>>> against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
>>>> to one of those voice recognition systems.
>>>
>>> Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
>>> on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
>>> interested.
>>
>> Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
>> the problem is with you and not them.
>
> It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read.
Exaggeration gets people into trouble too! Sometimes people forget to
type the accompanying little smiley face! : )
> Compare my
> words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one of the very
> frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.
>
On 5/28/12 8:10 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> I think you need to join our next beer summit hangout on Google+
>> It's a lot more fun to joke around with each other shoot the sh!t when
>> you can see each other and you're all a little buzzed. :-)
>
> Oh great - the non-drinker... what a fit, huh? (joke...)
>
You'll fit. No one one in our group is getting wasted.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 5/29/2012 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
>> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
>>
>
> Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident
I will chime in with RonB in agreement on this point. As I said before, while
I do think that the approach taken by "John" was indeed "boneheaded" (based on
some of my own boneheaded experiences with allowing wood to "move around" while
cutting it on the tablesaw), I do not think he is a moron. However, he did
used to work as an employee of the local Woodcraft, so he *should* have known
better. I just think he got too comfortable in his use of the tablesaw, had a
momentary lapse of reason, and paid the price. I don't EVER allow myself too
feel so comfortable with the machine that I don't slow down and think about
what the hell I'm doing before I hit that button, and what my backup plan will
be if something isn't working like I thought it would.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 5/29/12 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
>>> A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
>>> acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.
>>>
>>> This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
>>> brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
>>> insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
>>> available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
>>> protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
>>> that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.
>>>
>>> So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
>>> a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
>>> it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
>>> for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
>>> as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
>>> stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
>>> things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?
>>>
>>> So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
>>> blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
>>> had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
>>> expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
>>> the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
>>> the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
>>> left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
>>> tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
>>> be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
>>> more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
>>> have said the same thing.
>>>
>>> Be careful out there.
>>>
>>
>> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
>> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
>>
>
> Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
> all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
> of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
> have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
> woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
> A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.
I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.
Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Tue, 29 May 2012 16:58:10 -0500, Leon wrote:
>> YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several seconds
>> after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small parts I
>> was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly reached for
>> it. The blade was still moving.
>
> Damn! I did almost the same except I was reaching for the far end of
> the rip fence to remove it, after cutting dado's, after turning the
> motor off.
That makes 3 of us - luckily not too serious a cut.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
On 5/29/12 9:34 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/29/2012 6:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 May 2012 16:58:10 -0500, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>> YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several seconds
>>>> after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small parts I
>>>> was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly reached for
>>>> it. The blade was still moving.
>>>
>>> Damn! I did almost the same except I was reaching for the far end of
>>> the rip fence to remove it, after cutting dado's, after turning the
>>> motor off.
>>
>> That makes 3 of us - luckily not too serious a cut.
>
> I filet'd my right thumb and have the 13 stitch scar to prove it, all
> from installing an overhead guard on a table saw, unplugged and with no
> blade ... it was classified in the ER as a "table saw injury", and is
> part of the statistics for that type of injury.
>
Insert "guard stop" joke here.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
>> While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
>> catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
>> less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
>> movement.
>
> Never seen it...
Well, you can't say that any longer: :)
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5747297982693130738
As the caption says, this insert had only minor damage from movement
when being cut, and it is therefore still in use.
The results was not acceptable for a previous "zero clearance" insert
when initially attempting to use a UniFence for performing the same
operation.
My point being that I quickly found it to be much simpler and effective,
for both the operation and the equipment, to forego using this type of
fence in that manner, and to double clamp a sacrificial caul across the
insert instead.
>> I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use
>> this method with complete satisfaction.
>
> Perhaps altho I can't envision the fence being that flexible and being
> able of providing "complete satisfaction" in normal operations if so.
Well, the operation is arguably intended to be done with as much
precision as possible ... otherwise we would not be using the term "
_zero_ clearance" insert, eh? :)
> I've the original PM 66 fence. If the UniFence is indeed that unstable,
> throw a clamp on the ass end to hold it down.
I would not say the UniFence is "unstable", but it does move vertically
on the "ass end", as do just about all TS fences that are only attached
on one end.
You're right, putting a clamp in that location on a precision fence of
this type would undoubtedly work, but you'd want to insure that it was
done carefully so it didn't bind the mechanism, and possibly damage that
fence's built in precision.
Once again, your solution is certainly much safer than what was
represented and is certainly viable if the equipment can handle it.
Obviously a drawback to the UniFence, just like I have found it
unsuitable for hold downs, like "board buddies".
YMMV ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 5/26/2012 8:48 PM, dpb wrote:
>
> Just put the fence over the side of the plate clear of the blade by a
> safe margin so you don't hit it, stick a shim under it to keep the plate
> from climbing and raise away.
Except that many modern fences are not attached at the back, meaning
there is likelihood that there could be some movement of the fence, and
thus the insert, during raising of the blade.
While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight movement.
I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use
this method with complete satisfaction.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:05:13 -0400, "m II" <[email protected]> wrote:
>He has been attempting to communicate with the troll crowd. He even has
>a nailgun set up to protect his home from them. Reason enough?
Can't be as affecting as the embedded framing nail head injury you
experienced during puberty.
On 5/29/2012 12:25 PM, RonB wrote:
> On May 29, 11:58 am, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 5/29/2012 10:59 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
>>>>> doing things they shouldn't be doing.
>>
>>>> Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
>>>> all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
>>>> of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
>>>> have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
>>>> woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
>>>> A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.
>>
>>> I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
>>> harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
>>> TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.
>>
>>> Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
>>> it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.
>>
>> With a few exceptions I probably have spent more time on a TS than most
>> anyone in this group. And I can say in all honestly that I have been
>> seriously hurt more than once. I vividly remember that each time I was
>> no longer cutting wood.
>
> YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several
> seconds after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small
> parts I was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly
> reached for it. The blade was still moving.
Damn! I did almost the same except I was reaching for the far end of
the rip fence to remove it, after cutting dado's, after turning the
motor off.
On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:10:26 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
>> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
--snip--
>>
>For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
>how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
>
>For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
>anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.
Good video, good advice, Karl.
--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)
On 5/27/2012 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
>> could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
>
> No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
> using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
> personally). :)
>
> The approach used in this instance is absolutely guaranteed to have such
> "dire consequences", exactly as it did.
>
> IOW, this was NOT an accident, it was a guaranteed outcome with an
> almost 100% chance of failure, catastrophic of otherwise.
>
> What happened is an absolute indication of inexperience with a table saw
> or, less likely, but more charitably, a momentary case of the stupids on
> the part of the amputee.
>
> Simply put, the only way safe for a two handed woodworker, working
> alone, to accomplish this job is to use a _mechanical_ method that will
> apply a stable and _consistent_ downward force on the insert that is
> greater than the upward force of both the rotating blade teeth, and the
> elevating mechanism.
>
> IOW it is not something you want to attempt to accomplish alone, with
> just two available hands ... i.e, one turning the elevation crank, and
> the other attempting to apply the necessary downward force in any
> manner, INCLUDING USING A PUSH STICK OF ANY DESIGN.
>
> Except for the upward force on the insert, Steve stated the other
> problem clearly and concisely in a subsequent post:
>
> On 5/26/2012 9:41 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
> > Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
> > through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
> > from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?
>
> For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
> how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM
>
> For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
> anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.
>
That is the absolute safest way and should the multi-material insert
shatter for what ever reason you are also covered.