which is better 120 or 240

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >
> >"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> In rec.woodworking
> >> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
> >four
> >> >times the power of a 120v saw.
> >> >It is a no-brainer.
> >>
> >> You just couldn't help yourself could you?
> >
> >It was worth it though. Two fish!
> >
>
> Oh, I get it now -- you're Trent Sauder, posting under a sock puppet, up
to
> your old tricks of saying something dumb and then pretending it was all a
> joke. Wondered where you'd been, Trent.
>
Can't pull anything over on you Dougie!
Yup, I really thought you could just double voltage.
Thank God there are people like you to set things right!

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has four
> times the power of a 120v saw.
> It is a no-brainer.
>
>
Don't know which formula you are using but Power (Watts) = Current x Voltage
or if you want to substitute I = V/R you get Power = V * V / R. However
when you wire a motor from 110V to 220V you are changing two parallel
windings to two windings in series, so you have the same current in each
winding and therefore the SAME power from the motor. Where you do gain is
from the wiring of the distibution box to the terminals on the motor, here
you are dealing with a straight IR loss and as the R remains the same but
the I halves you have less loss in the wiring and therefore more voltage to
the motor.

Bernard R

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:lGqbc.509$%[email protected]...
> You have to read the OP more carefully. He didn't say anything about
> changing the wiring, but just using 240v or 120v. Since the wiring does
not
> change, neither does the resistance. Four times the power!!!!!!!!!
>
>

Four times the power where - I agree if its into a dead short; but he did
ask whether to wire his TS 120 or 240, so unless you're telling him to
connect his 120V wired motor directly to 240V without changing the taps then
he's going to get the same motor power plus a small fraction depending on
how long his cable run is. Of course if he wires his 120 motor to 240 he
will get four times the power for about 30 seconds before either the motor
burns out or the breaker trips.

Bernard R

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > but he did
> > ask whether to wire his TS 120 or 240
>
> Nope, he didn't say anything like that.
<snip>
>
This was the original post:
> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>
> Searcher1
>
Which words don't you understand?

Bernard R

"macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>
> Searcher1
>
>
At 240v the saw will use 1/2 the current compared to 120v, so the power is
the same (V*I). However, lower current will mean less voltage drop in the
feed wires, and less heating in the wires and motor. (This is also assuming
that you're making the proper connection in the saw; if you run 240 with the
saw at set 120, it will double the power, at least until the wires fry..)

That being said, I would agree with one of the other posters; if you don't
have easy access to 240 already, stick with 120, assuming it's already
there. If you're doing new wiring, wire both into the area and use 240 for
the stuff that can take advantage of it and leave 120v outlets for
everything else.

Mike O.

I hope you are enjoying yourself :-) Look what you gone an done! And two
days late too.

--
Bill Pounds
http://www.billpounds.com/woodshop


"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In rec.woodworking
> > "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
> four
> > >times the power of a 120v saw.
> > >It is a no-brainer.
> >
> > You just couldn't help yourself could you?
>
> It was worth it though. Two fish!
>
>

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
<snip>
> If YOU make the ASSUMPTION that he "re-jumpers" the motor, then everything
> changes, but then you are ignoring the OP and giving out potentially
> dangerous misinformation. If he was going to change the wiring, don't you
> think he would have given details?
>
> When you are wrong you should just admit it; cause now you are just
sounding
> stupid.
>
>
Doug,

No use taking this any further, the guy obviously doesn't understand
English, if he actually reads the OP, repeated below it does say it has the
OPTION of being either voltage, it doesn't say, as our friend seems to
imply, that it can be pluged in unaltered to either.

> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>

There are four levels in learing any new skill, guess which one he belongs
to:

Unconcious Incompetent: Doesn't know he doesn't know.
Concious Incompetent: Knows he doesn't know.
Concious Competent: Knows that he knows.
Unconcious Competent: Knows that he knows without having to think about it.

Bernard R

I was referring to the availibility of 220 in the shop area. In my
garage/shop, there's a couple of 120 circuits, plenty of outlets, but no
dedicated 220 run. I don't have anyhing that has to have 220 (at least not
yet..) It wouldn't be impossible to run it, but it would be a hassle.

Based on the way I understood the original posters needs, I wouldn't think
it would be worth the trouble to run a new line to his shop if he already
had 120. Of course, I can't see his setup; if it's an easy run from the
breaker panel to the shop, and he's willing (and able) to add the circuit,
he could go for it. I just figured his expected needs and the benefits he
would get from 220 for just one tool probably wouldn't be worth too much
trouble to add.

Mike O.


"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm approaching this from the supposition that the OP is a hobbyist in
> his own home.
>
> I thought every home had 220 available to it through the fact that the
> drop from the utility pole is two hot leads and a neutral. The two
> hot leads each power a row of breakers in the service panel. A 220
> breaker simply attaches to both leads.
>
> When I got a tool that said to plug it in to 220, all I did was buy
> the neccessary electrical stuff (breaker, 12ga. wire, conduit, ect.)
> to make it happen. It was easy. It might have cost 20 or 30 bucks to
> do. I used the advise of people that know how and read over two
> different books on wiring a house for the subject of adding an outlet.
> I am not an electrician but can follow instructions.
>
> Keep in mind it is a little technical to do this, get an electrician
> to do it for you if your uncomfortable or want someone else to blame
> if it all goes bad. Even using an electrician won't be all that much
> $.
>
> On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 01:09:29 -0500, "Mike O."
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
> >>
> >> Searcher1
> >>
> >>
> >At 240v the saw will use 1/2 the current compared to 120v, so the power
is
> >the same (V*I). However, lower current will mean less voltage drop in
the
> >feed wires, and less heating in the wires and motor. (This is also
assuming
> >that you're making the proper connection in the saw; if you run 240 with
the
> >saw at set 120, it will double the power, at least until the wires fry..)
> >
> >That being said, I would agree with one of the other posters; if you
don't
> >have easy access to 240 already, stick with 120, assuming it's already
> >there. If you're doing new wiring, wire both into the area and use 240
for
> >the stuff that can take advantage of it and leave 120v outlets for
> >everything else.
> >
> >Mike O.
> >
>

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > No use taking this any further, the guy obviously doesn't understand
> > English, if he actually reads the OP, repeated below it does say it has
> the
> > OPTION of being either voltage, it doesn't say, as our friend seems to
> > imply, that it can be pluged in unaltered to either.
> >
> > > My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
> > >
> Since it doesn't say anything about alteration, you assume it WILL be
> altered, instead of that it WON'T. Geez, that is moronic.
> What does pluge (an acronym for "Picture Line Up Generation Equipment")
have
> to do with it.
>
>

But nowhere near as moronic as saying he would get four times the power by
using 240V, which is patently false no matter how you try and justify it.

I believe that, as the OP had enough sense to discover that the TS was dual
voltage capable, he also has the ability to see what is necessary to do to
achieve that change. Unless someone shows that they are moronic, which is
how I will regard you for here on, I give them the benefit of having
reasonable intelligence. In any case I don't give misleading or false
information as you did in this case.

We all get fed up with answering the same question almost every other day,
but you always have the option to ignore it, reference it off or try and
give a sensible answer.

This guy asked a reasonable simple question, he deserved a simple straight
answer.

Rant, rave as much as you like, as far as I'm concerned this is the last
you'll hear from me.

Bernard R

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> > >
> > Oh, I get it now -- you're Trent Sauder, posting under a sock puppet, up
> to
> > your old tricks of saying something dumb and then pretending it was all
a
> > joke. Wondered where you'd been, Trent.
> >
> Can't pull anything over on you Dougie!
> Yup, I really thought you could just double voltage.
> Thank God there are people like you to set things right!
>
>

I just figured he mis-spelled his name, it should read Troller, not Toller!!
Greg

Thats what I was thinking, the less amps I am drawing the less money I give
to my local electric company.

Searcher1

"Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:25:12 GMT, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >its less expensive to run your motor at 220 instead of 110. less losses
in
> >the wire (as you say, 4 times less all other things being equal).
however
> >unless your power supply runs are say 50' or longer, and you are actually
> >using enough power to notice it on your bill, its irrelevant.
>
> Realize that the supply run is from the electrical panel. My
> garage/shop is 24' wide. It is 10' tall. The panel is on the opposite
> wall from where I am installing my shop tools. I need 8' of wire up to
> the ceiling, 24' to cross the building, 5' down to where the outlets
> will be and about 12' along the wall to where I want the saw outlet.
> That totals 49 feet. Add the 20' cord on the saw and you are starting
> to talk about measurable voltage drop on a 120V circuit. In many cases
> you will have a lot more distance. It is amazing how fast it adds up.
>
> >
> >in short, for the average home shop guy, it doesnt matter. wire it to
what
> >you got there already.
>
> The other place where it matters is in the efficiency of the motor.
> Even after re-wiring my previous shop to feed my saw with #10 wire at
> 120V it bogged badly, it is an 18A motor and draws about 24A on
> startup. I would routinely blow a 20A breaker if the blade was a bit
> dull or the saw was otherwise loaded. After converting to 240V it
> clearly runs better. It starts faster, never bogs down and I suspect
> that the RPMs are a bit higher, since it seems to "sing" a tone
> higher.
>
> I might even add that a lot of places are wired with #14 wire on 15A
> circuits - and that is not heavy enough to run any useful table saw.
> So my feeling is that the only drawback to going with 240V is the cost
> of wiring and there are many benefits while there are really no
> benefits to staying on 120V other than the savings of wiring costs. Of
> course I do my own wiring, so it only takes about $30 to add a 240V
> circuit with appropriate breaker, wire and receptacle.
>
> YMMV
>
> Tim Douglass
>
> http://www.DouglassClan.com

In article <[email protected]>, "searcher1" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
>Thats what I was thinking, the less amps I am drawing the less money I give
>to my local electric company.

The power company measures watts, not amps. 240V at 10A is the same power
consumption as 120V at 20A.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

In rec.woodworking
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has four
>times the power of a 120v saw.
>It is a no-brainer.

You just couldn't help yourself could you?

Sorry Randy, your approach is much too straight forward and simple. :-)


"xrongor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:rHAbc.60401$gA5.782282@attbi_s03...
>
>> for a shop with a tool running 16 hours a day, this will also help the
motor
> last longer because there are less losses in the motor itself. 3 phase
> power would be even better. for the average guy who turns his table saw
on
> for 4 hours a week, it probably makes none.
>
> in short, for the average home shop guy, it doesnt matter. wire it to
what
> you got there already.
>
> my 2 cents.
>
> randy
>
>

Andy Dingley wrote:
>
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 02:40:07 GMT, "macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>
> 240 - I don't know how you 'mericans even keep the light bulbs
> working on that piddly little 110V stuff.
>
There are 130 volt light bulbs. When used at 120 volts, they provide
longer life, but less output (lumens).

>
> No use taking this any further, the guy obviously doesn't understand
> English, if he actually reads the OP, repeated below it does say it has
the
> OPTION of being either voltage, it doesn't say, as our friend seems to
> imply, that it can be pluged in unaltered to either.
>
> > My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
> >
Since it doesn't say anything about alteration, you assume it WILL be
altered, instead of that it WON'T. Geez, that is moronic.
What does pluge (an acronym for "Picture Line Up Generation Equipment") have
to do with it.

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 02:23:37 GMT, "searcher1" <@NOSPAMverizon.net>
wrote:

>OK, first of all I am new at this stuff. Second, I do have an electric dryer
>in the area that is 220 so adding the breaker and running line for an outlet
>should be relativly easy for me. I was just curious as to what would make my
>saw run more efficient.
>
>Searcher1
>

Then I'm sorry, I didn't say about whether your existing saw would run
more efficiently.

Since I'm not an electrician and cannot remark about relative
efficiencies derived from calculation, I can say that if it were me,
I'd try it both ways (wiring it 110 & then 220) and comparing the
performance of the saw when cutting wood.

My original remarks came from running 220 over to my jointer. My
jointer required 220. I'm happy as a pig in slop with that. It's SO
much better than the old one. Never bogs down. To put it to an
automotive analogy, it was like trading up to a Corvette from a Geo
Metro.

IMO, you've done a good job of planning for the most part. May I add the
following (inline) opinions?

"Dana Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
...
> This is what I'm planning on.
> 1 240V 20A circuit w/2 outlets. One dedicated to the DC.
> 3 120V 20A circuits with just 2 duplex outlets per circuit.
> 1 120V 20A circuit for lighting. I hate looking for the blown breaker
> in the dark.
+++ You don't mention wire gauge, but for best contol of voltage drop, 10
and 12 gauge stranded is your best bet. Stranded has more surface area and
the wires can dissipate heat easier, especially on very hot days or heavy
loads. Stranded also provides lower IE drops.
...
I chose the commertial grade outlets over the residential
> grade. The low end outlets get as cheap as $.39. The ones I got were
+++ Good thinking
...
> Here are some advantages I see in configuring some of my heavy loads for
> 220V.
>
> 1). No TWO heavy 220 loads will overload the 220 circuit.
+++ IMO, ckts should be such that if TWO 220 machines are on the same ckt,
they should be two that will NOT be used simultaneously.
For best motor protection and performance, , and assuming brkr box to
outlet runs of abt 50 ft max, total current draw of all machinery that could
run simultaneously on a ckt should not exceed 1/2 the breaker rating. If
they can run simultaneously, they'll also eventually be started in quick
succession, so that deserves some thought too.
If possible, and it often isn't, each piece of equipment wants its own
ckt.


> 2). Offload the 120 circuits so combined loads are unlikely to cause
> problems.
+++ Same as above for 220 ckts. Depending on how the runs work out, you
can often cross-share lighting with equipmen t on theses. You could, say,
share the TS lighting with your lathe power run and vice-versa. That way
you have lighting on multiple ckts and blowing one breaker doesn't kill
lights at the machine that blew it, meaning lights can stay on. I have two
switches going into my garage; both for lighting. So, even if I blow a
lighting ckt, there is still light.

> 3). Reduce the number of running (non stall) breaker trips. The motor's
> thermal protection should keep you from overloading the motor.
+++ "Should" being the key word here. It will be pretty much true as long
as the normal current draw is not approaching breaker-trip. If that's the
case, it's very easy to pop the breaker on simple even momentary overloads.
Thus the rating of twice the breaker rating to the equipment draw.
Tripping
> the breaker in the middle of a cut is a bummer.

> 4). having some 240V outlets already wired allows me to bring in new
> machinery without worry about their power needs.
>
> I consider the DC the hardest working motor I have. It works an hour
> for each minute the TS, RAS, Drill Press, or any other tool works.
> Getting it onto a low current circuit can only help avoid low voltage
> issues.
>
> How many outlets do you place on a circuit? What current are your
> workshop circuits? How many circuits?

+++ In my own shop, I have one ckt per machine for 4 machines, and the rest
I have calculated so that max draw is less than 3/4 of the breaker rating
plus normal expected current draw is less than half. Other than the
obvious, the vacuum also gets its own ckt.
That actually runs a lot of machinery - when you count beam lights,
battery chargers, radio, speaker drivers, couple of flourescent lights, etc.
one ckt can go quite a ways. I have it set so that all the easy-to-forget
stuff is completely disabled by one of the three switches at the entrance to
my shop. The noisy stuff, well that's harder to forget to turn off :-).

Also consider whether you might move something. Say, you want to rip and
then cut a 50 ft piece of wood, will your TS be able to do it without being
moved? Or do you maybe need another outlet for it in case you have to move
it just out of reach of the intended outlet? That's my condition here. I
also have a garage stall but sometimes it just isn't big enough in one
dimension. And no, I don't cut 50 ft beams! ;-]
>
> --
> Dana Miller

I ain't no expert, but it does work out well for me.

Pop

In article <[email protected]>,
macyver <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
>My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?

277 single-phase, if you can't manage 440-delta.

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > No use taking this any further, the guy obviously doesn't understand
> > English, if he actually reads the OP, repeated below it does say it has
> the
> > OPTION of being either voltage, it doesn't say, as our friend seems to
> > imply, that it can be pluged in unaltered to either.
> >
> > > My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
> > >
> Since it doesn't say anything about alteration, you assume it WILL be
> altered, instead of that it WON'T. Geez, that is moronic.

come on dude. im sure even you know something is gonna get switched in the
saw if he uses 220 v 110. arguing the point further does indeed make you
look... well.. like you just want to argue.

randy

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> >
>> >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
>four
>> >times the power of a 120v saw.
>>
>> Try again.
>>
>> Power is the product of the voltage and the current, not the square of the
>> voltage.
>>
>> When a dual-voltage motor is connected to run on 240, it draws half the
>> current that it draws at 120, thus the power remains the same. (There's a
>> slight increase in available power, due to lower losses at the higher
>voltage,
>> but the difference is minor.)
>>
>Damn you people are dense.

Invert that, buddy. You don't understand what you're talking about here.

>When you change the voltage from 120v to 240v, you DOUBLE the current, not
>halve it.

False.
>V=IR.
>Since P=VI, and both V and I double, then P goes up by 4.

That would be true *if* the resistance were the same. But it's not.
>
>Sure, if you change things so that the winding are connected in series
>rather than parallel everything changes,

.. which is exactly what happens when you re-jumper a dual voltage motor to
operate at 240V instead of 120V.

> but the OP said nothing at all
>about doing that; he simply refered to using 240v rather than 120v. Do not
>make assumptions.

You're the one making assumptions, the primary one being the assumption that
you understand how dual-voltage motors work. You don't.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 05:33:30 GMT, Dana Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:

>This is what I'm planning on.
>1 240V 20A circuit w/2 outlets. One dedicated to the DC.
>3 120V 20A circuits with just 2 duplex outlets per circuit.
>1 120V 20A circuit for lighting. I hate looking for the blown breaker
>in the dark.

When you look at the answers you've gotten here you can see that there
are a lot of ways to skin the proverbial cat (which begs the question
of what you are going to do with a cat skin). Your layout is similar
to mine. I have 3 20A 120V circuits, each with about 6 duplex
receptacles. It means I have so many receptacles that I can reach one
from anywhere along my 25' long workspace without taking a step. The
number of receptacles doesn't matter with regard to load because I
only run one thing at a time, not counting light draw things like work
lights, fans or radios.

I put in 2 240V circuits 1 20A dedicated for a DC (which I don't have
yet) because the DC is the only major motor that will run while
another major motor is running. That circuit has only one outlet on
it. The other is a 20A circuit with 4 outlets on it, one for my TS,
RAS, the future jointer and possibly planer. Because only one will run
at a time I'm not worried about having them all on the same circuit.
My lights are on two separate 15A circuits, which is really overkill,
but I do that sometimes.

The only things I wish I had done semi-dedicated wiring for are a
bandsaw and a drill press, neither of which I have now, but intend to
add at some point. Those will both probably 120V tools and shouldn't
draw enough to be problems on the existing circuits.

All the 120V stuff is wired with #12 wire, all the 240V with #10. The
sub-panel is a 90A, so I think I'm pretty well covered.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 02:40:07 +0000, wrote:

> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>
> Searcher1

Search on the google archives :-)

<http://www.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=rec.woodworking&as_usubject=%28240%20%7C%20230%20%7C%20220%29%20%26%20%28TS%20%7C%20tablesaw%29&lr=&num=100&hl=en>

--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw

Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has four
times the power of a 120v saw.
It is a no-brainer.

OK, first of all I am new at this stuff. Second, I do have an electric dryer
in the area that is 220 so adding the breaker and running line for an outlet
should be relativly easy for me. I was just curious as to what would make my
saw run more efficient.

Searcher1

"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm approaching this from the supposition that the OP is a hobbyist in
> his own home.
>
> I thought every home had 220 available to it through the fact that the
> drop from the utility pole is two hot leads and a neutral. The two
> hot leads each power a row of breakers in the service panel. A 220
> breaker simply attaches to both leads.
>
> When I got a tool that said to plug it in to 220, all I did was buy
> the neccessary electrical stuff (breaker, 12ga. wire, conduit, ect.)
> to make it happen. It was easy. It might have cost 20 or 30 bucks to
> do. I used the advise of people that know how and read over two
> different books on wiring a house for the subject of adding an outlet.
> I am not an electrician but can follow instructions.
>
> Keep in mind it is a little technical to do this, get an electrician
> to do it for you if your uncomfortable or want someone else to blame
> if it all goes bad. Even using an electrician won't be all that much
> $.
>
> On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 01:09:29 -0500, "Mike O."
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
> >>
> >> Searcher1
> >>
> >>
> >At 240v the saw will use 1/2 the current compared to 120v, so the power
is
> >the same (V*I). However, lower current will mean less voltage drop in
the
> >feed wires, and less heating in the wires and motor. (This is also
assuming
> >that you're making the proper connection in the saw; if you run 240 with
the
> >saw at set 120, it will double the power, at least until the wires fry..)
> >
> >That being said, I would agree with one of the other posters; if you
don't
> >have easy access to 240 already, stick with 120, assuming it's already
> >there. If you're doing new wiring, wire both into the area and use 240
for
> >the stuff that can take advantage of it and leave 120v outlets for
> >everything else.
> >
> >Mike O.
> >
>

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In rec.woodworking
>> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
>four
>> >times the power of a 120v saw.
>> >It is a no-brainer.
>>
>> You just couldn't help yourself could you?
>
>It was worth it though. Two fish!
>

Oh, I get it now -- you're Trent Sauder, posting under a sock puppet, up to
your old tricks of saying something dumb and then pretending it was all a
joke. Wondered where you'd been, Trent.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller"
<[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
> >four
> >> >times the power of a 120v saw.
> >>
> >> Try again.
> >>
> >> Power is the product of the voltage and the current, not the square of
the
> >> voltage.
> >>
> >> When a dual-voltage motor is connected to run on 240, it draws half the
> >> current that it draws at 120, thus the power remains the same. (There's
a
> >> slight increase in available power, due to lower losses at the higher
> >voltage,
> >> but the difference is minor.)
> >>
> >Damn you people are dense.
>
> Invert that, buddy. You don't understand what you're talking about here.
>
> >When you change the voltage from 120v to 240v, you DOUBLE the current,
not
> >halve it.
>
> False.
> >V=IR.
> >Since P=VI, and both V and I double, then P goes up by 4.
>
> That would be true *if* the resistance were the same. But it's not.
> >
> >Sure, if you change things so that the winding are connected in series
> >rather than parallel everything changes,
>
> .. which is exactly what happens when you re-jumper a dual voltage motor
to
> operate at 240V instead of 120V.
>
> > but the OP said nothing at all
> >about doing that; he simply refered to using 240v rather than 120v. Do
not
> >make assumptions.
>
> You're the one making assumptions, the primary one being the assumption
that
> you understand how dual-voltage motors work. You don't.
>
I make no assumptions at all.
He is proposing connecting his saw to 240v rather than 120v.
Reread the OP, that is ALL he says.
Making no assumptions at all, current will double and power will quadruple.

If YOU make the ASSUMPTION that he "re-jumpers" the motor, then everything
changes, but then you are ignoring the OP and giving out potentially
dangerous misinformation. If he was going to change the wiring, don't you
think he would have given details?

When you are wrong you should just admit it; cause now you are just sounding
stupid.

"Dana Miller" writes:
> The stinking cheap builder only put one outlet in the
> WHOLE garage. Luckily, the breaker box is in the garage and has about
> 15 slots still unused.

Look at statistics. Many people go through their lives using only one
receptical in the garage. The builder is not going to install (pay for)
something that many people will never use. The original owners of my house
had none in the detached garage.

The builder is not going to be able to anticipate your needs either, as very
few homes have a shop as extensive as you will require. So, look at the big
advantage you have. The shop can be wired to meet your needs with your
design. At least you have plenty of empty slots so you can have many
circuits for your tools. Most of us would envy your position.
Ed

In article <[email protected]>,
searcher1 <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
>Thats what I was thinking, the less amps I am drawing the less money I give
>to my local electric company.

Not much difference. Drawing half the amps at twice the voltage
(which is quite close to what you would be doing) leaves you with the
same electric bill. You pay a bit less if you do less heating in the
branch circuit wiring. You could get the same benefit by using heavier
gauge wire in a 120 circuit. (My use of "heating" refers to the "losses
in the wire" mentioned by previous posters.)
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>When you are wrong you should just admit it; cause now you are just sounding
>stupid.
>
Take your own advice. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

"Dana Miller" writes:
> I'm facing a decision along these lines right now. I just received all
> my Dad's old workworking equipment and am setting up shop in the third
> bay of my garage. The stinking cheap builder only put one outlet in the
> WHOLE garage. Luckily, the breaker box is in the garage and has about
> 15 slots still unused.
<snip>

As far as the builder is concerned, that's all you paid for.

As far as a distribution design is concerned, let me offer the following:

2P-60A c'bkrs and below are all the same price.

Wire is CHEAP, especially if you standardize one size.

Buy 500 ft spools of wire where possible.

Run as many 240 VAC as you can, dedicated circuits are preferred.

I'd standardize on #10 AWG with a 30A c'bkr where possible.

You'll need #8 for decent size air compressor, say 5 HP.

Remember the only job of the c'bkr is to protect the insulation on the wire,
NOT THE LOAD.

If the load burns up, you should of had an overload relay in the circuit.

Use #12 AWG for all 120 VAC circuits backed up by 1P-20A c'bkrs.

I have purposely not addressed the subject of wiring devices (plugs,
receptacles, etc).

They are a subject of a separate post.

Have fun in your shop.

If you feel in any way obligated, my fee at one time for a design like this
would have been about $1,500.

Enjoy the freebie.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
>

I'm facing a decision along these lines right now. I just received all
my Dad's old workworking equipment and am setting up shop in the third
bay of my garage. The stinking cheap builder only put one outlet in the
WHOLE garage. Luckily, the breaker box is in the garage and has about
15 slots still unused.

The first step is to check the motors for current/power requirements and
multi-voltage capability. Here is what I found for 120/240V

DC : 15A/7.5
TC : 12A
RAS: 11A/5.5A
DP : 11A/5.5A

Throw in a shopvac, assorted routers, and other hand tools, maybe some
lighting, and sundry stuff and you quickly see that power management is
a problem.

The DC won't spool up to full speed before kicking out the 15A breaker
on its circuit. I've NEVER actually managed to get to run yet.
Nevermind running it WITH comething making sawdust. When you consider
that the DC works equally hard wheather or not I'm cutting at the
moment, and its fan load keeps it close to its rated power for its
entire run, that circuit is a candidate for considerable I^2*R heating.
Considering that the DC also starts under load, it has the worst life.

Starting the TS or RAS causes a considerable ammount of dimming of the
halogen light on the same circuit. Starting puts a motor in its max
current condition. Now having the line not sag so badly would help with
starting performance and reduce the chance of tripping the whole
circuit.

This is what I'm planning on.
1 240V 20A circuit w/2 outlets. One dedicated to the DC.
3 120V 20A circuits with just 2 duplex outlets per circuit.
1 120V 20A circuit for lighting. I hate looking for the blown breaker
in the dark.

While selecting the electical hardware at Menards (what color of BORG is
that?) I noticed a considerable range in the price and quality of duplex
outlets. I chose the commertial grade outlets over the residential
grade. The low end outlets get as cheap as $.39. The ones I got were
about $2.39. The commertial outlets are supposed to withstand more
plug-in cycles than residential. There were industrial grade outlets
for about $6.00. If my commertial outlets don't pass muster, I'll go
with the industrial.

Here are some advantages I see in configuring some of my heavy loads for
220V.

1). No TWO heavy 220 loads will overload the 220 circuit.
2). Offload the 120 circuits so combined loads are unlikely to cause
problems.
3). Reduce the number of running (non stall) breaker trips. The motor's
thermal protection should keep you from overloading the motor. Tripping
the breaker in the middle of a cut is a bummer.
4). having some 240V outlets already wired allows me to bring in new
machinery without worry about their power needs.

I consider the DC the hardest working motor I have. It works an hour
for each minute the TS, RAS, Drill Press, or any other tool works.
Getting it onto a low current circuit can only help avoid low voltage
issues.

How many outlets do you place on a circuit? What current are your
workshop circuits? How many circuits?

--
Dana Miller

Dana Miller <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>... asked:
> How many outlets do you place on a circuit? What current are your
> workshop circuits? How many circuits?
Before I get into what I have, for you since it sounds like you
haven't run circuits yet I'd recommend you run all 20A circuits
instead of 15A. Some of the tools push the 15s too hard as you've
noticed.

All my 240 stationary tools are on dedicated circuits (the jointer &
planer share one, but I only have one plugged in at a time). The plus
of this is you can match the breaker to the motor, not a Code issue,
but Grizzly recommended it - could save a motor. I used 10 ga wire on
all these for two reasons: 1) wasn't sure where the TS would end up,
the biggest load, and 2) there was enough wire in the box (100') to
run all 3 circuits... Now if I need to move the TS, I can switch
breakers around and I'm good to go.

My air compressor is on a dedicated 20A/120V circuit. I have 2 other
20A/120V circuits for duplexes running around the shop. I guess
there's maybe 5 per circuit (to lazy to go count). It's a one man
shop - not like I'm going to have 5 tools up and running on a single
circuit. Normally the DC is running and one tool - regardless of tool
it's on a separate circuit so no problems.

My shop is about 65 feet, as the wire is routed so to speak, from the
main panel. I used a 50A feed to a subpanel in the shop to reduce
total wire runs. This sub feeds all the tools. The lights are on
their own circuit from the main panel so I don't lose lights if I pop
the feed for the sub, which has never happened. I also have a $15
emergency light in case we have a blackout mid-cut.

I'm approaching this from the supposition that the OP is a hobbyist in
his own home.

I thought every home had 220 available to it through the fact that the
drop from the utility pole is two hot leads and a neutral. The two
hot leads each power a row of breakers in the service panel. A 220
breaker simply attaches to both leads.

When I got a tool that said to plug it in to 220, all I did was buy
the neccessary electrical stuff (breaker, 12ga. wire, conduit, ect.)
to make it happen. It was easy. It might have cost 20 or 30 bucks to
do. I used the advise of people that know how and read over two
different books on wiring a house for the subject of adding an outlet.
I am not an electrician but can follow instructions.

Keep in mind it is a little technical to do this, get an electrician
to do it for you if your uncomfortable or want someone else to blame
if it all goes bad. Even using an electrician won't be all that much
$.

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 01:09:29 -0500, "Mike O."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>>
>> Searcher1
>>
>>
>At 240v the saw will use 1/2 the current compared to 120v, so the power is
>the same (V*I). However, lower current will mean less voltage drop in the
>feed wires, and less heating in the wires and motor. (This is also assuming
>that you're making the proper connection in the saw; if you run 240 with the
>saw at set 120, it will double the power, at least until the wires fry..)
>
>That being said, I would agree with one of the other posters; if you don't
>have easy access to 240 already, stick with 120, assuming it's already
>there. If you're doing new wiring, wire both into the area and use 240 for
>the stuff that can take advantage of it and leave 120v outlets for
>everything else.
>
>Mike O.
>

You have to read the OP more carefully. He didn't say anything about
changing the wiring, but just using 240v or 120v. Since the wiring does not
change, neither does the resistance. Four times the power!!!!!!!!!

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 02:40:07 GMT, "macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net>
wrote:

>My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?

240 - I don't know how you 'mericans even keep the light bulbs
working on that piddly little 110V stuff.

Mind you, these new metric volts are smaller anyway.

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Toller"
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
> four
> > >times the power of a 120v saw.
> >
> > Try again.
> >
> > Power is the product of the voltage and the current, not the square of
the
> > voltage.
> >
> > When a dual-voltage motor is connected to run on 240, it draws half the
> > current that it draws at 120, thus the power remains the same. (There's
a
> > slight increase in available power, due to lower losses at the higher
> voltage,
> > but the difference is minor.)
> >
> Damn you people are dense.
> When you change the voltage from 120v to 240v, you DOUBLE the current, not
> halve it.
> V=IR.
> Since P=VI, and both V and I double, then P goes up by 4.
>
> Sure, if you change things so that the winding are connected in series
> rather than parallel everything changes, but the OP said nothing at all
> about doing that; he simply refered to using 240v rather than 120v. Do
not
> make assumptions.

its less expensive to run your motor at 220 instead of 110. less losses in
the wire (as you say, 4 times less all other things being equal). however
unless your power supply runs are say 50' or longer, and you are actually
using enough power to notice it on your bill, its irrelevant.

for a shop with a tool running 16 hours a day, this will also help the motor
last longer because there are less losses in the motor itself. 3 phase
power would be even better. for the average guy who turns his table saw on
for 4 hours a week, it probably makes none.

in short, for the average home shop guy, it doesnt matter. wire it to what
you got there already.

my 2 cents.

randy

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >
> >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
four
> >times the power of a 120v saw.
>
> Try again.
>
> Power is the product of the voltage and the current, not the square of the
> voltage.
>
> When a dual-voltage motor is connected to run on 240, it draws half the
> current that it draws at 120, thus the power remains the same. (There's a
> slight increase in available power, due to lower losses at the higher
voltage,
> but the difference is minor.)
>
Damn you people are dense.
When you change the voltage from 120v to 240v, you DOUBLE the current, not
halve it.
V=IR.
Since P=VI, and both V and I double, then P goes up by 4.

Sure, if you change things so that the winding are connected in series
rather than parallel everything changes, but the OP said nothing at all
about doing that; he simply refered to using 240v rather than 120v. Do not
make assumptions.

"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In rec.woodworking
> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has
four
> >times the power of a 120v saw.
> >It is a no-brainer.
>
> You just couldn't help yourself could you?

It was worth it though. Two fish!

"Bernard Randall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > but he did
> > > ask whether to wire his TS 120 or 240
> >
> > Nope, he didn't say anything like that.
> <snip>
> >
> This was the original post:
> > My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
> >
> > Searcher1
> >
> Which words don't you understand?
>
The ones that aren't there; the part about "but he did
ask whether to wire his TS 120 or 240".
No he didn't.
What words are you hallucinating?

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Power is proportional to the square of the voltage, so a 240v saw has four
>times the power of a 120v saw.

Try again.

Power is the product of the voltage and the current, not the square of the
voltage.

When a dual-voltage motor is connected to run on 240, it draws half the
current that it draws at 120, thus the power remains the same. (There's a
slight increase in available power, due to lower losses at the higher voltage,
but the difference is minor.)

>It is a no-brainer.
>

So it would seem.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 05:33:30 GMT, Dana Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>The first step is to check the motors for current/power requirements and
>multi-voltage capability. Here is what I found for 120/240V
>
>DC : 15A/7.5
>TC : 12A
>RAS: 11A/5.5A
>DP : 11A/5.5A

A good start.

>Throw in a shopvac, assorted routers, and other hand tools, maybe some
>lighting, and sundry stuff and you quickly see that power management is
>a problem.

It's really only a big problem if you don't consider the number of
these circuits you'll be using at the same time. Ideally, all large
machines and motors should be on their own circuits. In reality, you
could put all the stuff you listed on a single 30A 240V cct (and run
it all simultaneously), but that doesn't mean that's the best way to
go.

>The DC won't spool up to full speed before kicking out the 15A breaker
>on its circuit. I've NEVER actually managed to get to run yet.

It's drawing 15A on a 15A 120v cct, and it's probably drawing 18A on
startup. Poof!

>
>This is what I'm planning on.
>1 240V 20A circuit w/2 outlets. One dedicated to the DC.
>3 120V 20A circuits with just 2 duplex outlets per circuit.
>1 120V 20A circuit for lighting. I hate looking for the blown breaker
>in the dark.

You've only used six of your fifteen spare spaces so far, so feel free
to grab a couple more while you still can.

I'd give the DC its own 20A 240V cct. It's the only big motor you're
likely to use at the same time as another, and you're likely to do
that most of the time. You could probably run it just fine on a 120V
20A cct, but it will be happier wired for 240V.

I'd put the lighting on two circuits if possible. It makes things much
more safe and flexible down the road, and good lighting can be a huge
current draw. It really depends upon how large an area you have and
what kind of work you'll be doing, but its damned hard to overestimate
shop lighting needs.

>I chose the commertial grade outlets over the residential
>grade. The low end outlets get as cheap as $.39. The ones I got were
>about $2.39.

Good Choice.

>I consider the DC the hardest working motor I have. It works an hour
>for each minute the TS, RAS, Drill Press, or any other tool works.
>Getting it onto a low current circuit can only help avoid low voltage
>issues.

There you go.

>How many outlets do you place on a circuit? What current are your
>workshop circuits? How many circuits?

NEC does not *specifically* limit the number of general use (which is
what most of them will be) receptacles you can place on a 120v cct. It
does say that you have to figure 180VA per receptacle for these, so
theoretically, 15Ax120V/180VA = 10 receptacles. On a 20A cct, you
could theoretically go to 13 receptacles. Either is more than common
sense would generally dictate. It's best to group your ccts logically
and geographically, and leave yourself some overhead (about 60% of
capacity is a nice, reasonable number to shoot for). NEC does require
that you use the actual V*A numbers for other than general use
receptacles (for example, a refrigerator or air conditioner). It
doesn't say you can't combine these loads (and of course you can), but
where possible, you are to use the actual loads for these types of
items.

Don't even consider 15A 120V ccts, except possibly for lighting -- use
20A instead. The difference in the cost of the breakers and devices is
negligible, and you only need to go from #14 to #12 wire to use 20A
120V circuits. There is an NEC option for figuring receptacles and
circuits based on square footage (I've forgotten what the exact
numbers are for the moment), but logic will probably tell you that you
need more than that in a shop, anyway. In a shop, I want receptacles
placed no more than 6-8' apart.

You should also keep in mind that per NEC, all 120V receptacles in a
garage or similar outbuilding must be GFCI protected, and if your shop
is in or attached to your garage, that means your shop must be so
protected as well (at least that's how our state and local code
officials interpret things).

Hope some of that is helpful.

John

John Paquay
[email protected]

"Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets"
http://home.insightbb.com/~jpaquay/shop.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
With Glory and Passion No Longer in Fashion
The Hero Breaks His Blade. -- Kansas, The Pinnacle, 1975
------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:25:12 GMT, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>its less expensive to run your motor at 220 instead of 110. less losses in
>the wire (as you say, 4 times less all other things being equal). however
>unless your power supply runs are say 50' or longer, and you are actually
>using enough power to notice it on your bill, its irrelevant.

Realize that the supply run is from the electrical panel. My
garage/shop is 24' wide. It is 10' tall. The panel is on the opposite
wall from where I am installing my shop tools. I need 8' of wire up to
the ceiling, 24' to cross the building, 5' down to where the outlets
will be and about 12' along the wall to where I want the saw outlet.
That totals 49 feet. Add the 20' cord on the saw and you are starting
to talk about measurable voltage drop on a 120V circuit. In many cases
you will have a lot more distance. It is amazing how fast it adds up.

>
>in short, for the average home shop guy, it doesnt matter. wire it to what
>you got there already.

The other place where it matters is in the efficiency of the motor.
Even after re-wiring my previous shop to feed my saw with #10 wire at
120V it bogged badly, it is an 18A motor and draws about 24A on
startup. I would routinely blow a 20A breaker if the blade was a bit
dull or the saw was otherwise loaded. After converting to 240V it
clearly runs better. It starts faster, never bogs down and I suspect
that the RPMs are a bit higher, since it seems to "sing" a tone
higher.

I might even add that a lot of places are wired with #14 wire on 15A
circuits - and that is not heavy enough to run any useful table saw.
So my feeling is that the only drawback to going with 240V is the cost
of wiring and there are many benefits while there are really no
benefits to staying on 120V other than the savings of wiring costs. Of
course I do my own wiring, so it only takes about $30 to add a 240V
circuit with appropriate breaker, wire and receptacle.

YMMV

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

split the difference and run it at 180 <g>

randy

"macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>
> Searcher1
>
>

"macyver" <@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My new TS has the option of being 120 or 240 vt. Which is better?
>
> Searcher1
>
This is one of the most discussed topics in this newsgroup over the years.
You should find lots of information by searching the archives. My executive
summary:

1. Some people argue that electricity is electricity, and that the motor
runs the same on either.

2. Some people argue that motors run cooler on 120 vs. 240, or 110/220, or
115/230, and cooler is better

3. I don't remember anyone arguing that 120 is better, so I always run 240.

4. There are a whole bunch of other arguments that I forget because I
already went with #3

I hope that this helps - Bob

> but he did
> ask whether to wire his TS 120 or 240

Nope, he didn't say anything like that.
No chance it would last 30 seconds.
Many many many years ago I plugged my 120v razor into a 240v outlet and it
went up in a puff of blue smoke in less than a second. I don't think a
table saw motor would last much longer.

No assumptions being made. Fact: you're an idiot. Plonk.
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do not
> make assumptions.
>