I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one place
it?
signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
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"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
place
> it?
>
>
You have a problem that a ground will just cover up. If you want to keep the
saw I would find where the current draw is, and correct the problem. If
nothing else replace the motor, rewire the switch and inconnecting wires,
then add a three wire cord.
Many of those older saws were pretty good units, so it may be worth
repairing properly.
Greg
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:24:20 GMT, "Troy Hall"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >How many have a GOOD RF grade ground in their dust collection network?
You
> >do realise that is can instaneously combust don't you? Happens every
day.
>
> You were doing fine until you got to that. Happens every day? Cite ONE
> verifiable instance where this has occured in a home workshop...ever.
>
>
> - -
>
I think you missed the sarcasim!
Greg
Europe is scared of nearly everything, including each other!
In the case of the president (yes, with a small p), I don't much blame them.
Wilson
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:10:26 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
> Krug"@cdksystems.com> wrote:
>
> >Wiring isn't magic or voodoo, despite what some seem to imply.
>
> No, US practice for wiring electric motors _is_ voodoo.
>
> Europe is scared of your machinery wiring.
>
You may have a short circuit to the frame. Might need to replace the motor
with a new one that has a three wire plug on it. This problem will not get
better on its own. This is a dangerous situation. Adding a ground wire to
the frame will probably stop the problem by tripping the breaker its plugged
in to, but of course that won't solve your problem.
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
> place
> it?
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004
>
>
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> GerryG <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>There is nothing illegal or dangerous about connecting an earth ground to
>>the
>>frame, as he said below. However, a tool that discharges current through
>>this
>
> Both you and he are incorrect. Grounding an appliance (tablesaw) which
> has a neutral frame
> connection (advertent or inadvertent) will energize the ground throughout
> the premises while the appliance (tablesaw) is on - a potentially fatal
> occurance
> for someone else on the premises.
>
>>earth ground is dangerous and against any electrical code. Check with any
>>book
>>or reputable site on this. Now, you could always put this into a
>>ground-fault
>>outlet, but it would probably trip immediately.
>>
>>In short, you have a potentially dangerous situation which shold be fixed.
>
> This is true.
>
>>Adding a ground will at least give you some protection if the leakage
>>increases, so the motor will begin to smoke before you do.
>
> not necessarily true.
>
> scott
>>
>>This is also the reason I run my shop with ground-fault detectors.
>>
>>GerryG
>>
>>On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:24:20 GMT, "Troy Hall" <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> >
>>>> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> > news:[email protected]...
>>>> > > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to
>>>protect
>>>> > you
>>>> > > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a
>>>> > > defective
>>>> > tool.
>>>> > > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
>>>> would
>>>> > > just trip the breaker.)
>>>> >
>>>> > Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the
>>>problem
>>>> > but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
>>>> >
>>>> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground
>>>> rather
>>>> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would
>>>> be
>>>> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > The short answer, combined with your question about the fence
>>>> > > below,
>>>is
>>>> to
>>>> > > toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
>>>> >
>>>> > That is just plane bad advice.
>>>>
>>>> I can't comment on that, but it is plain good advice.
>>>> Bear in mind he also said his fence was unusable. How much money do
>>>> you
>>>> want to put into a 62 year old 9.5" table saw?
>>>
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Mike, the grounding conductor is only intended to carry current for the
> couple of milliseconds it takes for a breaker to trip.
I understand that Scott, and I apologize if I have not made that clear. I
got a little carried away in response to the statement that the ground wire
must never carry current. I do well understand that it is not to be wired
for current but it seemed that there were people who were more interested in
pointing out that it should not be wired to carry current than recognizing
the fact that myself and others were only talking about this very sort of
current carrying use - fault condition, very short duration.
>
> It must _never_ carry current routinely, as it would in the case above
> where the neutral is bonded to the frame of the saw (the grounding and
> grounded (neutral) conductors are essentially a single conductor in
> this case (abstractly modelled).
I should have responded to one of your earlier posts which talked about
neutral bonding of older motors and given recognition to the point that you
made, but to be honest, by the time I saw it I really just wanted to bail
out of this thread. The electrical threads always seem to get so hot - not
that I don't owe my own responsibility to that. So... genuinely... thank
you for pointing that out as it is indeed a factor that I had not
considered. Damn - I had to learn something again today.
Thanks Scott - especially for being so patient while I suffered through my
brain fart.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>
>"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
>> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
>> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
>
>Whaaaaat?
>
>In all this discussion of ground & neutral, may I comment that, at least
>here in USA, most places the code calls for the ground & neutral to be
>bonded together @ the building load center or entry panel?
That doesn't mean that it is acceptable for the grounding conductor
(that you are calling 'ground') to carry _any_ current at _any_ time
other than a fault situation that trips a breaker.
The GROUND _MUST_ _NEVER_ _EVER_ _EVER_ carry current!!!
(because it is tied to the metal frame of most appliances and to the
conduit, your water pipes, and so forth und so weiter).
scott
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:12:35 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:10:26 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
> Krug"@cdksystems.com> wrote:
>
>>Wiring isn't magic or voodoo, despite what some seem to imply.
>
> No, US practice for wiring electric motors _is_ voodoo.
>
> Europe is scared of your machinery wiring.
>
Been there, done that.
I was building power test systems for HP TMO (now part of Agilent). The
units sent to Europe had some requirements that were universally
regarded with a shrug, but they weren't especially difficult to
implement.
The most obvious change was that they required a the neutral to be run
through a breaker, which in US practice would be thought dangerous.
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:20:02 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
|
|"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|news:[email protected]...
|> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
|> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
|> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
|> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
|> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
|place
|> it?
|>
|> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
|>
|
|Yes. Go out and buy a length of 16ga cord with three conductors - usually
|Black, White and Green. Wire the black and white wires into your motor the
|way that it is currently wired and secure the green to the metal chassis of
|the motor. You can usually find a screw to slip the ground wire under and
|then tighten the screw back down. Wire a three prong plug to the other end
|and you're off. Maybe cheaper and easier is to buy a 25 foot extension cord
|and cut it down to the length you want. Wire the cut end to your saw and
|your plug end will be already wired in a nice factory molded plug.
|
|You can also run a separate ground from the motor to a ground in the
|building, but that tends to get pulled loose or otherwise damaged. I like
|the first way better.
Mike is right on, especially about buying an extension cord and
cutting it to length. You buy a "pigtail" and it costs big bucks.
Buy a 10' extension cord on sale for a few bucks.
As to the others bunching up their panties about *danger*, it's very
possible the shock is from nothing more than static build up. If it's
actually leakage in the motor, then the ground will at best make it
safe and at worst will pop a breaker, in which case the OP can take
the motor to a shop for troubleshooting.
I would love to test the voltage from the tablesaw, while running, to
ground with a voltmeter. How much potential is actually present? The saw
frame and construction may be dropping a bit of that voltage from load
alone or maybe some complex impedance. And remembering back to some of
the old radio days, we used to be able to polarize the radio by turning
the plug around going to the outlet. But the old radios still had a
voltage present (floating) and would arc badly if they came in contact
with a grounded chassis.
Philski
Flame on!
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:24:20 GMT, "Troy Hall"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >How many have a GOOD RF grade ground in their dust collection network?
You
> >do realise that is can instaneously combust don't you? Happens every
day.
>
> You were doing fine until you got to that. Happens every day? Cite ONE
> verifiable instance where this has occured in a home workshop...ever.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
"Mark L." wrote:
> I would find out where the current leakage is. Pull the motor and if you
> don't have an ohmmeter, take it to a motor repair shop. It may be in the
> motor, or it could also be in the ancillary wiring. Don't just cover up
> the problem, find the root cause and get it fixed. No need to toss
> the saw. Mark L.
>
Depending on the age of the saw and where it was made the neutral may be
internally connected to the saw's frame through the motor casing (one of the
reasons for polarized plugs). With the saw unplugged and the switch off use an
ohmmeter to check for continuity from the each of the plugs prongs to the frame
of the saw. You should see an infinite ohm reading (open).
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Tom Veatch wrote:
> One response to this, in a different thread, brought up the possibility of
> static discharge causing the "zap". The OP use of the term "frequently" implies
> it isn't an "every time" occurrence which reinforces the idea of it being a
> static discharge rather than a current leak.
My thoughts on the shock not occurring all the time is the presumed "neutral" being
tied to the saw's frame and depending on how the non polarized plug is connected.
Connected one way the saw's frame would be on the neutral side of the motor's
windings. Connected the opposite way the frame would be "hot".
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> I think a fellow named Ben Franklin did his kite experiment in 1752. I
> may be wrong, but I think this predates the 'lectrical contributions of
> the three you named.
Franklin's "experiment" showed that lightening and electricity were one in
the same. He did not "discover" electricity.
From http://www.codecheck.com/pp_elect.html :
"Around 600 BC Greeks found that by rubbing an 'electron' (a hard
fossilized resin that today is known as Amber) against a fur cloth, it
would attract particles of straw. This strange effect remained a mystery
for over 2000 years, until, around AD 1600, Dr William Gilbert investigated
the reactions of amber and magnets and first recorded the word 'Electric'
in a report on the theory of magnetism."
I believe Gilbert was a Brit.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
I can't believe nobody said this yet:
You have a Taser Saw. :P
BTW: My dad grew up on a farm outside Morganville, and went to Clifton
H.S. I spent a lot of time in the Clay Center area as a kid visiting
my grandparents.
Good times. Good times. Nothing beats a corn-fed whitetail. <sigh>
-Mike
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one place
> it?
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest thing
> I've
> > heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static
> electricity
> > in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an AC
> > current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that the hot
> isn't
> > making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one of these
> > days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I don't want to have
> > to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to protect me. If you think I'm
> > getting my undies in a bunch, let's do a test. I'll hand you a steel bar
> > connected to ground. You hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120. Sound
> > like a good idea, genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong with
> the
> > motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
> >
> > todd
> >
> >
>
> For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is defective
> internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I jumped past that in my
> original reply. However, adding a ground in no way presents a danger or a
> stupid move to the OP. What do you suppose we use grounds for if not for
> the type of situation being discussed here? If you don't want to rely on a
> ground or a circuit breaker to help protect you from leakage from hot, then
> perhaps you should stay away from electrical appliances since that is the
> very reason for grounds.
Electricity does not "leak" to ground under any normal US electrical
system. if you have current flow to ground it is a FAULT and
represents a serious hazard. Current in a 120V circuit flow only in
the hot and neutral legs.
The ground is there to provide a low impedance path for any fault that
might happen so the branch circuit protection (usually a CB - but
maybe a fuse if its old enough) will trip and clear the fault.
Sometimes a little trickle of electricicty will escape because of wet
insulation or other reasons that is not enough to trip the CB. A
ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) will detect that there is a
difference between the current flow in the neutral and hot legs and
trip to prevent you from being killed.
My suspicion is that the motor has insulation that has failed and
allowed an electrical path to the frame. The impedence of the fault
may be high enough that the little bit of current flow is low enough
that it does not trip the CB, but this does not make it safe.
Installing a ground to the frame of the motor will not fix this
problem, but may well hasten the point at which the fault gets bad
enough that it will trip the CB.
I suspect a motor replacement is in order. When you install the new
motor make sure you do it with a three wire plug. The old style 2
wire plugs, especially the unpolarized ones can be deadly - its why
they are no longer used.
Another poster mentioned something about having 56 volts from neutral
to ground. This is absurd. Ground and neutral are bonded together
electrically at your service panel (thats how a neutral is created),
so there should be virtually no voltage there under no load
conditions, and only whatever voltage drop is generated in the wiring
from the service panel out to the device under load. If you are
exhibiting this kind of voltage between neutral and ground in the US,
you have an extremely unsafe condition that should be corrected
immediately by someone competent.
The exception to this would be someone living in Australia who have a
different electrical scheme.
yes I do have those tools as I have experience in home wiring and hold a
degree in electronics. Like I said I'll be checking this out and reporting
back. Was going to do it today but was having too hard of a time breathing
to spend it bending like a pretzel
signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
"Richard Cline" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I do not know if the owner of the saw has many shop tools but I would
> suggest the purchase of a couple inexpensive items. An outlet fault
> finder can be purchased for a very few dollars. It is worthwhile to
> check your whole house and find how many plugs are incorrectly wired.
> An inexpensive volt-ohmeter would help to determine the origin of the
> unwanted voltage.
>
> If this diagonstic approach is attractive, we can lay out a set of tests
> that will isolate the problem. It will probably allow for an
> inexpensive solution to the problem. It will certainly be instructive.
>
> Dick
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Take the three wire cord through the switch and to the motor. You don't
need to rely on the friction connection at the pivot, even though it would
almost certainly blow the breaker if necessary.
BTW, I'd be surprised if your floor is conductive enough to deliver a fatal
shock, but who knows...if the concrete has a lot of calcium added, it might
be higher conductivity than normal.. We've about killed this, so I'm looking
forward to hearing the outcome. Meanwhile, keep faces away! Their thin
skin is more conductive than hands.
Unbelievably, no one has mentioned the most dangerous scenario with this
thing. On a floor of low conductivity, like wood or dry concrete, you could
hook the hot wire right to the frame and not get much of a shock, BUT if you
touched ANYTHING properly wired you'd get blasted. Current would flow
through you to the grounded frame of whatever you touched, like a light
fixture, metal circular saw, metal water pipe, frame of your drillpress,
etc. In a small shop, this could happen without much effort.
I once was working in a new building and when I tried to connect a coax
cable from one piece of electronice to another I got a nice 40A 120V arc
right at my fingertips! It was plain luck I wasn't didn't take hold of the
second piece of equipment and the coax connector at the same time! The
fools who wired the building switched hot and neutral on SOME plugs and
never checked their work, so I had gear at 120VAC above ground. Even so, I
didn't get shocked when standing on the concrete floor and touching the hot
gear.
The surprise of that arc in my fingers won't be forgotten, although I was
not shocked or burned at all.
Wilson
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wes, thank you for this.. You've given me even more information to use.
My
> saw has a gravity dual belt system also. I think the stand is a universal
> one even though it matches the color. Kinda a cream color. I was totally
> unaware that the saw dust could get into the motor and cause problems.
I'll
> bet theres plenty after all these years.
> I'm going to go over this saw well before I make any more cuts and see
what
> I can find. I discovered the other day that the blade was off plumb by a
> 1/16" and that that was what was causing crooked rips. Thats been fixed
but
> it wasn't easy. not much adjustment that I could find. the one thing I
> don't like about this saw is that I don't see and easy way to accurately
> adjust the bevel cut. Nor to assure its plumb again once you've moved it.
> The face comment came from my son when night before last we moved the saw
6"
> to give better placement for the future router table and as he was leaning
> his face against the metal frame to level the legs he said "its giving me
> tiny shocks". He described it like a 9v dc battery does to your tongue.
> The motor frame sits on a pivoting rod that then attaches to the saw
> framework. I'm not at all sure how I would bond this short of doing an RF
> braid type bond. Is that acceptable?
> Again thanks for addditional clarification.
> Once I find out what exactly it is, I'll be sure to report back.
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
> "Wes Stewart" <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:58:31 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
> > criticized thus:
> >
> >
> >
> > |Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest thing
> I've
> > |heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static
> electricity
> > |in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an AC
> > |current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that the hot
> isn't
> > |making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one of
> these
> > |days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I don't want to
> have
> > |to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to protect me. If you think I'm
> > |getting my undies in a bunch, let's do a test. I'll hand you a steel
bar
> > |connected to ground. You hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120.
Sound
> > |like a good idea, genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong
with
> the
> > |motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
> >
> > My response was based on the facts in evidence. In a follow-up post
> > the OP said:
> >
> > "I think its only when it is on and not always. It is VERY mild. Not
> > a 110 shock. Which is whats (sic) weird."
> >
> > So if you guess that the op has been shocked by static discharge and
> > knows the difference between that and an AC current shock then we are
> > on the same page.
> >
> > As to your dismissing the static discharge idea, here is what a belt
> > manufacturer says about it:
> >
> > http://www.gates.com/facts/documents/Gf000046.pdf
> >
> > Certainly it's possible that there is a fault from one or both sides
> > of the line to the frame of the motor, although a hard fault would be
> > delivering results much different from what the OP reports,
> > particularly when his face is in contact with the saw. (In this case:
> > face in contact with a running table saw, electrical shock would seem
> > to be the least of his worries)
> >
> > It is equally possible that a build-up of conductive material (saw
> > dust) has been introduced into the cooling slots of the motor and this
> > explains leakage that comes and goes. No amount of motor rebuilding
> > will eliminate this eventuality; a safety ground will---well, make it
> > safe.
> >
> > Even with motor rebuilding or replacement, a three-wire system is a
> > must, so why not convert to a three-wire system first, particularly
> > when the act of doing so will automatically repair of many of the
> > potential (no pun intended) sources of leakage.
> >
> > I suppose the error in my previous post it was that it was based on
> > what *I* would do in this case, based on *my* experience. I had a
> > Craftsman saw, albeit not as old, and I remember the configuration:
> > rubber feet, open cooling slots in the motor, motor in the path of saw
> > dust discharge, loose motor mounting with gravity belt tensioning.
> >
> > When I opened the motor to rewire, *I* would blow out the accumulated
> > debris, look for carbon tracks, make sure the motor frame and the saw
> > body were bonded together, etc. I can see that someone less
> > experienced might not understand the nuances of this. For this I
> > apologize.
> >
> > Wes Stewart, retired EE
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
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>
Okay this is a good one. First of all, if you were to intentionally break
off the ground on your three way plug and plug any new saw in, it may or may
not exhibit what you are currently experiencing. As soon as the ground from
a machine is removed and the plug is plugged in out of phase you will
experience a shock. For those that would like to experiment. Disable your
ground and plug in your machine both ways an use a multimeter to measure
voltage. What you will see is 56 volts when you are out of phase (measured
to ground). This is why the shock you are experiencing doesn't seem like
full voltage. DAMHIKT. Didn't want to make this too long.Long story short
just put a new wire,with ground on your saw and when you wire the plug onto
the wire make sure it is phase.
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
place
> it?
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:24:31 GMT, GerryG <[email protected]> wrote:
|After more than 40 years of working with that stuff, I have an old habit that
|I don't even think about: I always assume everything and anything is hot, and
|ground it before grabbing, even if I've already checked with a meter sometime
|earlier. It only takes a second and will pop a breaker or at least show a
|spark. Come to think of it, an experience similar to what you described
|started that habit.
Heh heh. There's always at least one "experience." In electronics
(vacuum tube stuff) the adage was keep one hand in your pocket. This
was to prevent that killing current path through the chest.
I went to a short course on corona testing for insulation systems and
my employer bought a corona ("partial discharge") tester that had 10KV
DC stacked on 40KV AC capability. When you ran that thing you kept
*both* hands and maybe your feet too in your pocket [g].
The lab in the company that offered the course and made the equipment
would have made Tesla jealous. I think they could have made lightning
in there.
It's always interesting to see all the aggressive opinions that come with many
electrical questions. Some have tried to explain the difference between a
ground and neutral, while others have ignored or misinterpreted it. But no
matter how you explain it, getting shocked is not a nice thing. With older
devices, those who survive are usually experiencing leakage current which may
be more startling than directly dangerous. Unfortunately, one can never tell
when this leakage may increase.
In a few very old items, reversing the plug may stop the problem, and you can
then put a polarizing plug on to keep it that way.
There is nothing illegal or dangerous about connecting an earth ground to the
frame, as he said below. However, a tool that discharges current through this
earth ground is dangerous and against any electrical code. Check with any book
or reputable site on this. Now, you could always put this into a ground-fault
outlet, but it would probably trip immediately.
In short, you have a potentially dangerous situation which shold be fixed.
Adding a ground will at least give you some protection if the leakage
increases, so the motor will begin to smoke before you do.
This is also the reason I run my shop with ground-fault detectors.
GerryG
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:24:20 GMT, "Troy Hall" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> > > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to
>protect
>> > you
>> > > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
>> > tool.
>> > > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
>> would
>> > > just trip the breaker.)
>> >
>> > Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the
>problem
>> > but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
>> >
>> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
>> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
>> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
>> > >
>> > > The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below,
>is
>> to
>> > > toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
>> >
>> > That is just plane bad advice.
>>
>> I can't comment on that, but it is plain good advice.
>> Bear in mind he also said his fence was unusable. How much money do you
>> want to put into a 62 year old 9.5" table saw?
>
Wes, thank you for this.. You've given me even more information to use. My
saw has a gravity dual belt system also. I think the stand is a universal
one even though it matches the color. Kinda a cream color. I was totally
unaware that the saw dust could get into the motor and cause problems. I'll
bet theres plenty after all these years.
I'm going to go over this saw well before I make any more cuts and see what
I can find. I discovered the other day that the blade was off plumb by a
1/16" and that that was what was causing crooked rips. Thats been fixed but
it wasn't easy. not much adjustment that I could find. the one thing I
don't like about this saw is that I don't see and easy way to accurately
adjust the bevel cut. Nor to assure its plumb again once you've moved it.
The face comment came from my son when night before last we moved the saw 6"
to give better placement for the future router table and as he was leaning
his face against the metal frame to level the legs he said "its giving me
tiny shocks". He described it like a 9v dc battery does to your tongue.
The motor frame sits on a pivoting rod that then attaches to the saw
framework. I'm not at all sure how I would bond this short of doing an RF
braid type bond. Is that acceptable?
Again thanks for addditional clarification.
Once I find out what exactly it is, I'll be sure to report back.
signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
"Wes Stewart" <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:58:31 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
> criticized thus:
>
>
>
> |Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest thing
I've
> |heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static
electricity
> |in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an AC
> |current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that the hot
isn't
> |making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one of
these
> |days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I don't want to
have
> |to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to protect me. If you think I'm
> |getting my undies in a bunch, let's do a test. I'll hand you a steel bar
> |connected to ground. You hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120. Sound
> |like a good idea, genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong with
the
> |motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
>
> My response was based on the facts in evidence. In a follow-up post
> the OP said:
>
> "I think its only when it is on and not always. It is VERY mild. Not
> a 110 shock. Which is whats (sic) weird."
>
> So if you guess that the op has been shocked by static discharge and
> knows the difference between that and an AC current shock then we are
> on the same page.
>
> As to your dismissing the static discharge idea, here is what a belt
> manufacturer says about it:
>
> http://www.gates.com/facts/documents/Gf000046.pdf
>
> Certainly it's possible that there is a fault from one or both sides
> of the line to the frame of the motor, although a hard fault would be
> delivering results much different from what the OP reports,
> particularly when his face is in contact with the saw. (In this case:
> face in contact with a running table saw, electrical shock would seem
> to be the least of his worries)
>
> It is equally possible that a build-up of conductive material (saw
> dust) has been introduced into the cooling slots of the motor and this
> explains leakage that comes and goes. No amount of motor rebuilding
> will eliminate this eventuality; a safety ground will---well, make it
> safe.
>
> Even with motor rebuilding or replacement, a three-wire system is a
> must, so why not convert to a three-wire system first, particularly
> when the act of doing so will automatically repair of many of the
> potential (no pun intended) sources of leakage.
>
> I suppose the error in my previous post it was that it was based on
> what *I* would do in this case, based on *my* experience. I had a
> Craftsman saw, albeit not as old, and I remember the configuration:
> rubber feet, open cooling slots in the motor, motor in the path of saw
> dust discharge, loose motor mounting with gravity belt tensioning.
>
> When I opened the motor to rewire, *I* would blow out the accumulated
> debris, look for carbon tracks, make sure the motor frame and the saw
> body were bonded together, etc. I can see that someone less
> experienced might not understand the nuances of this. For this I
> apologize.
>
> Wes Stewart, retired EE
>
>
>
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:00:26 -0500, "Greg O" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I think you missed the sarcasim!
Well, if there was any sarcasm there I missed it...twice. I went back
and reread it. He was serious.
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
place
> it?
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>
Yes. Go out and buy a length of 16ga cord with three conductors - usually
Black, White and Green. Wire the black and white wires into your motor the
way that it is currently wired and secure the green to the metal chassis of
the motor. You can usually find a screw to slip the ground wire under and
then tighten the screw back down. Wire a three prong plug to the other end
and you're off. Maybe cheaper and easier is to buy a 25 foot extension cord
and cut it down to the length you want. Wire the cut end to your saw and
your plug end will be already wired in a nice factory molded plug.
You can also run a separate ground from the motor to a ground in the
building, but that tends to get pulled loose or otherwise damaged. I like
the first way better.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to
protect
> > you
> > > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
> > tool.
> > > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
> would
> > > just trip the breaker.)
> >
> > Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the
problem
> > but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
> >
> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
> > >
> > > The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below,
is
> to
> > > toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
> >
> > That is just plane bad advice.
>
> I can't comment on that, but it is plain good advice.
> Bear in mind he also said his fence was unusable. How much money do you
> want to put into a 62 year old 9.5" table saw?
Where did I say my fence was bad??????? It wouldn't work with a sheet of
ply 6' x 36" deep. WELL DUH!!! the table is barely more then that!! I was
making a cut 30½" in from the end to cut the board into two pieces so I
could laminate into a 1" top for a router table. Is my fence the easiest
thing in the world to use... nope. Is it the most accurate? NOPE! Is it
functional? YEP! Measure 3x cut once. PERSONALLY I can handle a 120v
shock without much more then a blink. But I ain't gonna sit there and do
it!! SHEESH.
I realize it needs to be fixed. Thats why I asked the question in the first
place!
There has been a lot of useful information given on exactly how to do that
and why I should NOT recitify the missing ground before doing these tests.
Having a shop is a dangerous place. There are a million things that could
go wrong and it is not wise to INTENTIONALLY bybass these safetys. HOWEVER,
How many still have the blade guard on their saws?
How many have a GOOD RF grade ground in their dust collection network? You
do realise that is can instaneously combust don't you? Happens every day.
How many have a FLASH proof rag container?
Have a FLASH PROOF paint locker? Or even Flash proof ventilator?
Lets stop the flaming and understand that we all probalby have things in our
shop that we have/do that we shouldn't, and when it is obvisous to you that
the OP doesn't realize that this may be dangerous, point out the reasons,
and alternatives and then allow the OP to make the decision. It IS his/her
life after all isn't it?
GOD BLESS and lets get back to woodworking
> >
>
>
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"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Mike, the grounding conductor is only intended to carry current for the
>> couple of milliseconds it takes for a breaker to trip.
>
>I understand that Scott, and I apologize if I have not made that clear. I
No problem. I got a bit carried away with the emphasis, no doubt.
>Thanks Scott - especially for being so patient while I suffered through my
>brain fart.
You're welcome.
scott
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:54:20 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
>
> We know all about American wiring - we've seen Edison's film of it
> electrocuting the elephant.
>
> And Volta, Faraday and Tesla were Americans ?
>
I think I read one time that the wished they were...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I would find out where the current leakage is. Pull the motor and if you
don't have an ohmmeter, take it to a motor repair shop. It may be in the
motor, or it could also be in the ancillary wiring. Don't just cover up
the problem, find the root cause and get it fixed. No need to toss
the saw. Mark L.
Troy Hall wrote:
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one place
> it?
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>
>
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>
>
In article <6wy1d.7877$%S.3044@pd7tw2no>, aaa <zoro @ excite.com> wrote:
>Okay this is a good one. First of all, if you were to intentionally break
>off the ground on your three way plug and plug any new saw in, it may or may
>not exhibit what you are currently experiencing. As soon as the ground from
>a machine is removed and the plug is plugged in out of phase you will
>experience a shock. For those that would like to experiment. Disable your
>ground and plug in your machine both ways an use a multimeter to measure
>voltage. What you will see is 56 volts when you are out of phase (measured
>to ground). This is why the shock you are experiencing doesn't seem like
>full voltage. DAMHIKT. Didn't want to make this too long.Long story short
>just put a new wire,with ground on your saw and when you wire the plug onto
>the wire make sure it is phase.
Are you talking about North American wiring here?
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
"Wes Stewart" <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:20:02 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> |
> |"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> |news:[email protected]...
> |> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs
the
> |> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> |> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against
it
> |> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a
slight
> |> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
> |place
> |> it?
> |>
> |> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
> |>
> |
> |Yes. Go out and buy a length of 16ga cord with three conductors -
usually
> |Black, White and Green. Wire the black and white wires into your motor
the
> |way that it is currently wired and secure the green to the metal chassis
of
> |the motor. You can usually find a screw to slip the ground wire under
and
> |then tighten the screw back down. Wire a three prong plug to the other
end
> |and you're off. Maybe cheaper and easier is to buy a 25 foot extension
cord
> |and cut it down to the length you want. Wire the cut end to your saw and
> |your plug end will be already wired in a nice factory molded plug.
> |
> |You can also run a separate ground from the motor to a ground in the
> |building, but that tends to get pulled loose or otherwise damaged. I
like
> |the first way better.
>
> Mike is right on, especially about buying an extension cord and
> cutting it to length. You buy a "pigtail" and it costs big bucks.
> Buy a 10' extension cord on sale for a few bucks.
>
> As to the others bunching up their panties about *danger*, it's very
> possible the shock is from nothing more than static build up. If it's
> actually leakage in the motor, then the ground will at best make it
> safe and at worst will pop a breaker, in which case the OP can take
> the motor to a shop for troubleshooting.
Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest thing I've
heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static electricity
in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an AC
current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that the hot isn't
making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one of these
days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I don't want to have
to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to protect me. If you think I'm
getting my undies in a bunch, let's do a test. I'll hand you a steel bar
connected to ground. You hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120. Sound
like a good idea, genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong with the
motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
todd
"Wes Stewart" <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:24:31 GMT, GerryG <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> |After more than 40 years of working with that stuff, I have an old habit
that
> |I don't even think about: I always assume everything and anything is hot,
and
> |ground it before grabbing, even if I've already checked with a meter
sometime
> |earlier. It only takes a second and will pop a breaker or at least show a
> |spark. Come to think of it, an experience similar to what you described
> |started that habit.
>
> Heh heh. There's always at least one "experience." In electronics
> (vacuum tube stuff) the adage was keep one hand in your pocket. This
> was to prevent that killing current path through the chest.
>
> I went to a short course on corona testing for insulation systems and
> my employer bought a corona ("partial discharge") tester that had 10KV
> DC stacked on 40KV AC capability. When you ran that thing you kept
> *both* hands and maybe your feet too in your pocket [g].
>
> The lab in the company that offered the course and made the equipment
> would have made Tesla jealous. I think they could have made lightning
> in there.
Well, we're getting even further off the topic here, but in my previous
non-IT life I did a fair amount of high voltage testing. I was involved in
the design and manufacture of transmission insulators. Part of my job was
supervising corona and RIV (radio-influence voltage) tests on insulators and
insulator sets. The lab I frequented had a 1000kV AC generator and about a
2500kV impulse generator (which really was used to test for lightning
surges). The wire that connected the voltage divider to the unit to be
tested was just regular thin wire (in the neighborhood of piano wire). When
doing corona testing, we would black out the lab, bring the set we were
testing up to voltage, and observe for any visible signs of corona. In
order to do that, a couple of people had to be inside the test area. This
lucky day I was a spotter. The first disconcerting feeling is that even at
30 feet away, the electrical field coming off the divider made the hair on
your arms stand up. During this particular test, someone had left a wire
hanging down from the divider that was about 3 feet off the ground. I was
sitting in the darkened lab waiting for the voltage to come up when at
probably 350-400kV the electricity found ground by flashing over from the
wire, which was on my end of the lab. I just about peed my pants trying to
get the hell back to the control room.
todd
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to protect
you
> when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
tool.
> Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it would
> just trip the breaker.)
Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the problem
but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
>
> The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below, is to
> toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
That is just plane bad advice.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Finally someone with the right approach.
The ground is most likely caused by the insulation in the motor getting old
and starting to break down or a loose wire in the on/off button. With the
unit unplugged open the on/off switch and see if the wires are in good shape
or loose or if some bear wire is exposed. If all looks good in that
department then its time to have a good look at the motor. What you will
need to do a quick check on the motor is a meter called a megger. This meter
will test the motor windings and indicate their condition. Since most people
don't have a megger at home you just have to remove the motor from the saw
and take in to a local motor repair shop. They can test it in two minutes
and tell you if the winding insulation is the cause of the problem. And yes
it would be a good idea also to install a three pronged plug on the unit
after you get it up and running. If there is a slight ground on the unit in
the future the ground wire will protect the operator from getting in the
ground loop circuit and getting small ZAPS like you are experiencing now. If
there is a bad ground the ground wire you installed will cause the breaker
to trip which in turn lets you know that you have a bad electrical problem
with you machine. Sorry for the long story but I think this pretty much
covers everything. In any event don't through the saw out because of a
grounding problem. Resolve the proble and you will most likely get another
30 years out of the little darling.
Bill
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs
the
> > blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> > remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against
it
> > with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a
slight
> > zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
> place
> > it?
> >
> >
>
> You have a problem that a ground will just cover up. If you want to keep
the
> saw I would find where the current draw is, and correct the problem. If
> nothing else replace the motor, rewire the switch and inconnecting wires,
> then add a three wire cord.
> Many of those older saws were pretty good units, so it may be worth
> repairing properly.
> Greg
>
>
"DJ Delorie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
> > What do you suppose we use grounds for if not for the type of
> > situation being discussed here?
>
> To provide a margin of safety when accidents occur. If it's
> intentional, it's not an accident, it's stupidity.
>
> > If you don't want to rely on a ground or a circuit breaker to help
> > protect you from leakage from hot,
>
> Grounds protect you from accidental leaks, not intentional ones.
>
> Plus, if your saw is in a basement or garage, it should have a GFI
> anyway, and using a ground that way would trip the GFI.
>
> > then perhaps you should stay away from electrical appliances since
> > that is the very reason for grounds.
>
> No, a ground is not appropriate for bypassing a KNOWN wiring fault to
> obviate the need for repairs. Grounds are a safety net, not a band
> aid.
Your points are well taken and I posted a different reply in which I
indicated that I had jumped right past the matter of having the motor looked
at. It remains however that the comments I replied to were flat out wrong
in that they completely ignored the purpose of ground. Ground, according to
the comments I replied to, has no real purpose.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> writes:
>I think its only when it is on and not always. It is VERY mild. Not a 110
>shock. Which is whats weird.
How do you know what a 110 shock should be like? It's the current that governs
the 'mildness' of the shock, not the voltage.
Two possiblities:
1) The neutral conductor is wired to the frame of the saw (unlikely, but possible).
Reversing the plug will give you a much larger shock if this is so (dangerous!)
2) Somewhere on the saw is an unintentional path to the frame from either the
grounded or current-carrying conductor.
Unless you find the problem and resolve it, the saw shouldn't be used.
scott
To define weither its a static discharge or an actual ground you simply need
to take a multi meter, set it to AC volts and stick one probe in the ground
part of your wall plug, stick the other probe on any metal part of the table
saw. A static charge will disapate almost immediately while a ground will
give you a constant reading. If the unit is grounded its not a good idea to
try looking for it with just your hands until you get several shocks. Each
time you get a shock; that indicates that there is a path for electricity to
ground using your body as the conductor, not good.
"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:34:27 GMT, "Troy Hall" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> <snip>
> >Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> >with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a
slight
> >zap.
>
> One response to this, in a different thread, brought up the possibility of
> static discharge causing the "zap". The OP use of the term "frequently"
implies
> it isn't an "every time" occurrence which reinforces the idea of it being
a
> static discharge rather than a current leak.
>
> To the OP: One way to make a determination on this point is to consider
whether
> it happens each time you touch the saw when the saw is running and whether
it
> will occur twice in quick succession. If so, it is probably current
leakage and
> is, or could develop into, a dangerous situation. Correction requires a
repair
> to either the saw's wiring harness or the internal wiring of the motor.
Addition
> of a ground wire will mask the problem but has the undesirable features
> mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
>
> If it zaps you once but immediately repeating the contact that yielded the
first
> zap is "zap free", then it is likely a build up of static charge and
grounding
> the frame of the saw will cure the problem. In that case, the source of
the
> static buildup likely to be as stated in the other thread - frictional
buildup
> from the rotating belts, a la Van de Graaff generator.
>
>
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest thing
I've
> heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static
electricity
> in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an AC
> current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that the hot
isn't
> making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one of these
> days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I don't want to have
> to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to protect me. If you think I'm
> getting my undies in a bunch, let's do a test. I'll hand you a steel bar
> connected to ground. You hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120. Sound
> like a good idea, genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong with
the
> motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
>
> todd
>
>
For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is defective
internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I jumped past that in my
original reply. However, adding a ground in no way presents a danger or a
stupid move to the OP. What do you suppose we use grounds for if not for
the type of situation being discussed here? If you don't want to rely on a
ground or a circuit breaker to help protect you from leakage from hot, then
perhaps you should stay away from electrical appliances since that is the
very reason for grounds.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to
> protect
> > > you
> > > > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a
defective
> > > tool.
> > > > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
> > would
> > > > just trip the breaker.)
> > >
> > > Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the
> problem
> > > but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
> > >
> > It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground
rather
> > than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
> > simply unsafe rather than illegal.
> > > >
> > > > The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below,
> is
> > to
> > > > toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
> > >
> > > That is just plane bad advice.
> >
> > I can't comment on that, but it is plain good advice.
> > Bear in mind he also said his fence was unusable. How much money do you
> > want to put into a 62 year old 9.5" table saw?
>
> Where did I say my fence was bad??????? It wouldn't work with a sheet of
> ply 6' x 36" deep. WELL DUH!!! the table is barely more then that!! I
was
Sorry, I thought you were saying the fence was no good and you had to clamp
a piece of wood to the table.
I have cut plywood like that many times with no problems at all; so I guess
you are just clumsy.
Go add a ground. Do any stupid thing you want.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> >> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground
>rather
>> >> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would
>be
>> >> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
>> >
>> >Whaaaaat?
>> >
>> >In all this discussion of ground & neutral, may I comment that, at least
>> >here in USA, most places the code calls for the ground & neutral to be
>> >bonded together @ the building load center or entry panel?
>>
>> That doesn't mean that it is acceptable for the grounding conductor
>> (that you are calling 'ground') to carry _any_ current at _any_ time
>> other than a fault situation that trips a breaker.
>>
>> The GROUND _MUST_ _NEVER_ _EVER_ _EVER_ carry current!!!
>>
>> (because it is tied to the metal frame of most appliances and to the
>> conduit, your water pipes, and so forth und so weiter).
>>
>> scott
>
>Oh Bullshit! If the grounding conductor was to never carry any current, it
Mike, the grounding conductor is only intended to carry current for the
couple of milliseconds it takes for a breaker to trip.
It must _never_ carry current routinely, as it would in the case above
where the neutral is bonded to the frame of the saw (the grounding and
grounded (neutral) conductors are essentially a single conductor in
this case (abstractly modelled).
Look:
+-----------+
+ +-----------B---- breaker
+ saw +-----------W---- grounded conductor bus in breaker box
+ +-----------G---- grounding conductor bus in breaker box
+-----------+
If W and G are connected at the saw, then the return path for the
current from 'B' will be both 'W' and 'G'. Thus, current will flow
in the ground. In such a configuration, the frames of all other
devices which share the same ground path will be energized. I don't think you
really want this. The breaker will _not_ trip in this case as it
is not a short circuit to ground.
>could not in any way protect the user. Those of us who have advocated a
>grounded system have also advocated repairing the original problem in
>association with installing a grounded solution. If he had the ground he'd
>likely not experience the current flow he's experiencing now. The breaker
Not necessarily. If the grounded and grounding conductors are bonded at the
device (saw) the breaker won't trip, however the grounding conductor would
be carrying current.
>would trip and he'd know to fix the problem with far less risk of injury
>that with an ungrounded saw. It is quite possible in a grounded scheme for
>the leakage to be less than what will trip the breaker, so your opening
>comment is pure bull as is your all caps comment. The ground will carry
>current under a fault condition which serves to protect the user and that
>flow may or it may not trip the breaker. The fault condition must still be
>repaired, but no one is advocating anything different.
>--
>
>-Mike-
>[email protected]
>
>
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:54:20 GMT, Mike Marlow
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> No, US practice for wiring electric motors _is_ voodoo.
>>
>> Europe is scared of your machinery wiring.
>>
>
> Hey - stop it. Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
"Well sheet, boy, Muddy Waters 'vented 'lectricity." -- Spoken by "Blind
Man Willie Johnson" in Crossroads. Guitar pickin' by Steve Vai, who
also taught Ralph Maccio how to fake it.
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:45:24 -0700, TeamCasa <[email protected]> wrote:
> Flame on!
>
>
Wiring isn't magic or voodoo, despite what some seem to imply. All it
takes is a methodical approach and attention to detail. Most anyone who
posts here should be able to look at a wiring job and decide whether or
not it's within his or her comfort/ability zone. If you're wondering
whether or not is IS, then it isn't. Simple.
1. Check the cord. Replace if necessary. See if it's feasible to add
an equipment ground. If the motor neutral is isolated from the frame,
you're good to go. If not, consider replacing the motor--old equipment
that's neither doubly insulated nor grounded isn't worth the danger.
2. Cord okay? Take the motor to a motor shop.
3. Consider replacing the motor with a modern frame-grounded unit. If
the saw is otherwise sound, it might be worth it.
4. If the saw is NOT otherwise sound, buy a new one.
GerryG <[email protected]> writes:
>There is nothing illegal or dangerous about connecting an earth ground to the
>frame, as he said below. However, a tool that discharges current through this
Both you and he are incorrect. Grounding an appliance (tablesaw) which has a neutral frame
connection (advertent or inadvertent) will energize the ground throughout
the premises while the appliance (tablesaw) is on - a potentially fatal occurance
for someone else on the premises.
>earth ground is dangerous and against any electrical code. Check with any book
>or reputable site on this. Now, you could always put this into a ground-fault
>outlet, but it would probably trip immediately.
>
>In short, you have a potentially dangerous situation which shold be fixed.
This is true.
>Adding a ground will at least give you some protection if the leakage
>increases, so the motor will begin to smoke before you do.
not necessarily true.
scott
>
>This is also the reason I run my shop with ground-fault detectors.
>
>GerryG
>
>On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:24:20 GMT, "Troy Hall" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> >
>>> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> > news:[email protected]...
>>> > > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to
>>protect
>>> > you
>>> > > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
>>> > tool.
>>> > > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
>>> would
>>> > > just trip the breaker.)
>>> >
>>> > Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the
>>problem
>>> > but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
>>> >
>>> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
>>> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
>>> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
>>> > >
>>> > > The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below,
>>is
>>> to
>>> > > toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
>>> >
>>> > That is just plane bad advice.
>>>
>>> I can't comment on that, but it is plain good advice.
>>> Bear in mind he also said his fence was unusable. How much money do you
>>> want to put into a 62 year old 9.5" table saw?
>>
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous.
Nonsense, twice.
Electrical code applies only to premises wiring, not to cord-and-plug
connected devices, so there's clearly nothing illegal about it.
And it obviously is less dangerous to properly ground the frame of the
equipment than to leave it ungrounded.
> A ground is to protect you
>when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective tool.
Nonsense, a third time.
Chances are that there is nothing wrong with the tool. Did you notice the part
where he said it's an unpolarized 2-prong plug? And if the tool *is*
defective, adding a ground will *prevent* him from using it. Had you noticed
that he *is* able to use it now???
>Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it would
>just trip the breaker.)
Nonsense, times 4.
If the short is from the hot, he now has a table saw with an energized,
ungrounded frame. If he adds a ground to it (e.g. by replacing the 2-conductor
power cord with a properly grounded 3-conductor cord), _of_course_ it will
trip the breaker -- which is obviously exactly the desired behavior if the hot
is indeed shorted to the frame. In what sense is this "not working"?
>The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below, is to
>toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
Nonsense x 5...
>
>However,
>1) Does the shock come when the saw is on or off?
>2) Does reversing the plug change anything.
Perhaps you should have ascertained the answers to those questions _before_
posting all that tripe.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs
> the blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If
> I remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean
> against it with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg )
> we'll get a slight zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop
> it? Where would one place it?
Well, you've gotten a load of conflicting answers here. My guess
is you have bad shop wiring, and the neutral is developing a voltage
(which it shouldn't). Connecting a ground wire will probably remove
the shock by providing an alternate path for the current (which will
result in less voltage being developed across the combined return
path of the neutral and the ground). In general running a significant
current down the ground wire is a bad idea.
The frame of the saw should not be connected to the neutral, especially
if it has a non-polarized plug, but 1940 vintage equipment wasn't
particularly strict about that (not to mention it might have been
rewired by someone unknowledgable somewhere along the line). So you
should probably trace down why that is happening, as well as whether
you've got a problem with the shop wiring.
You would be wise to have someone experienced with electricity help
troubleshoot this.
John
[email protected] (bob peterson) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest
>> > thing
>> I've
>> > heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static
>> electricity
>> > in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an
>> > AC current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that
>> > the hot
>> isn't
>> > making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one
>> > of these days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I
>> > don't want to have to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to
>> > protect me. If you think I'm getting my undies in a bunch, let's
>> > do a test. I'll hand you a steel bar connected to ground. You
>> > hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120. Sound like a good idea,
>> > genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong with
>> the
>> > motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
>> >
>> > todd
>> >
>> >
>>
>> For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is
>> defective internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I
>> jumped past that in my original reply. However, adding a ground in
>> no way presents a danger or a stupid move to the OP. What do you
>> suppose we use grounds for if not for the type of situation being
>> discussed here? If you don't want to rely on a ground or a circuit
>> breaker to help protect you from leakage from hot, then perhaps you
>> should stay away from electrical appliances since that is the very
>> reason for grounds.
>
> Electricity does not "leak" to ground under any normal US electrical
> system. if you have current flow to ground it is a FAULT and
> represents a serious hazard. Current in a 120V circuit flow only in
> the hot and neutral legs.
Of course it does. It's called leakage current. While it would be ideal
that leakage current is zero, in many cases it is not. It's not even
that uncommon to see labels on equipment to notify operators of high
leakage current. The solution? Ground the equipment properly. Grounding
is not a solution to a fault, but it IS an appropriate solution to
leakage current.
>
> The ground is there to provide a low impedance path for any fault that
> might happen so the branch circuit protection (usually a CB - but
> maybe a fuse if its old enough) will trip and clear the fault.
>
> Sometimes a little trickle of electricicty will escape because of wet
> insulation or other reasons that is not enough to trip the CB. A
> ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) will detect that there is a
> difference between the current flow in the neutral and hot legs and
> trip to prevent you from being killed.
>
> My suspicion is that the motor has insulation that has failed and
> allowed an electrical path to the frame. The impedence of the fault
> may be high enough that the little bit of current flow is low enough
> that it does not trip the CB, but this does not make it safe.
>
> Installing a ground to the frame of the motor will not fix this
> problem, but may well hasten the point at which the fault gets bad
> enough that it will trip the CB.
>
> I suspect a motor replacement is in order. When you install the new
> motor make sure you do it with a three wire plug. The old style 2
> wire plugs, especially the unpolarized ones can be deadly - its why
> they are no longer used.
>
> Another poster mentioned something about having 56 volts from neutral
> to ground. This is absurd. Ground and neutral are bonded together
> electrically at your service panel (thats how a neutral is created),
> so there should be virtually no voltage there under no load
> conditions, and only whatever voltage drop is generated in the wiring
> from the service panel out to the device under load. If you are
> exhibiting this kind of voltage between neutral and ground in the US,
> you have an extremely unsafe condition that should be corrected
> immediately by someone competent.
>
> The exception to this would be someone living in Australia who have a
> different electrical scheme.
>
Thats absolutely correct. Not only that, this is a BELT driven device. 2
belts actually. This creates a known energy field. Is it interacting?
Lets face it not too many things were UL rated in the early 40's LOL
I will be doing some measurements tomorrow to see what I can see. I should
be interesting.
signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
"Philski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I would love to test the voltage from the tablesaw, while running, to
> ground with a voltmeter. How much potential is actually present? The saw
> frame and construction may be dropping a bit of that voltage from load
> alone or maybe some complex impedance. And remembering back to some of
> the old radio days, we used to be able to polarize the radio by turning
> the plug around going to the outlet. But the old radios still had a
> voltage present (floating) and would arc badly if they came in contact
> with a grounded chassis.
>
> Philski
>
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to protect
>> you
>> > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
>> tool.
>> > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
>would
>> > just trip the breaker.)
>>
>> Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the problem
>> but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
>>
>It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
>than to the neutral.
Utter nonsense. What on earth do you think an equipment ground is *for*,
anyway?
> If the machine had been made that way, it would be
>simply unsafe rather than illegal.
So you think that *adding* an equipment ground to it makes it *less* safe
than it is now?!
Amazing.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground
rather
> >> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would
be
> >> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
> >
> >Whaaaaat?
> >
> >In all this discussion of ground & neutral, may I comment that, at least
> >here in USA, most places the code calls for the ground & neutral to be
> >bonded together @ the building load center or entry panel?
>
> That doesn't mean that it is acceptable for the grounding conductor
> (that you are calling 'ground') to carry _any_ current at _any_ time
> other than a fault situation that trips a breaker.
>
> The GROUND _MUST_ _NEVER_ _EVER_ _EVER_ carry current!!!
>
> (because it is tied to the metal frame of most appliances and to the
> conduit, your water pipes, and so forth und so weiter).
>
> scott
Oh Bullshit! If the grounding conductor was to never carry any current, it
could not in any way protect the user. Those of us who have advocated a
grounded system have also advocated repairing the original problem in
association with installing a grounded solution. If he had the ground he'd
likely not experience the current flow he's experiencing now. The breaker
would trip and he'd know to fix the problem with far less risk of injury
that with an ungrounded saw. It is quite possible in a grounded scheme for
the leakage to be less than what will trip the breaker, so your opening
comment is pure bull as is your all caps comment. The ground will carry
current under a fault condition which serves to protect the user and that
flow may or it may not trip the breaker. The fault condition must still be
repaired, but no one is advocating anything different.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:54:20 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
We know all about American wiring - we've seen Edison's film of it
electrocuting the elephant.
And Volta, Faraday and Tesla were Americans ?
I think its only when it is on and not always. It is VERY mild. Not a 110
shock. Which is whats weird.
Not that I have noticed, but I haven't paid close attention to it.
"Tossing" the saw is not at option at this time. I don't have $300+ to
purchase a new one. This is a very sturdy tablesaw with a 9½" blade.
signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to protect
you
> when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
tool.
> Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it would
> just trip the breaker.)
>
> The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below, is to
> toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
>
> However,
> 1) Does the shock come when the saw is on or off?
> 2) Does reversing the plug change anything.
>
>
---
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I don't think anybody directly responded on your question. Yes, a flexible
braid strap is fine, as long as it's properly attached and capable of carrying
the max current, which is probably not an issue for anything other than a very
thin braid.
GerryG
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:22:45 GMT, "Troy Hall" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Wes, thank you for this.. You've given me even more information to use. My
>saw has a gravity dual belt system also. I think the stand is a universal
>one even though it matches the color. Kinda a cream color. I was totally
>unaware that the saw dust could get into the motor and cause problems. I'll
>bet theres plenty after all these years.
>I'm going to go over this saw well before I make any more cuts and see what
>I can find. I discovered the other day that the blade was off plumb by a
>1/16" and that that was what was causing crooked rips. Thats been fixed but
>it wasn't easy. not much adjustment that I could find. the one thing I
>don't like about this saw is that I don't see and easy way to accurately
>adjust the bevel cut. Nor to assure its plumb again once you've moved it.
>The face comment came from my son when night before last we moved the saw 6"
>to give better placement for the future router table and as he was leaning
>his face against the metal frame to level the legs he said "its giving me
>tiny shocks". He described it like a 9v dc battery does to your tongue.
> The motor frame sits on a pivoting rod that then attaches to the saw
>framework. I'm not at all sure how I would bond this short of doing an RF
>braid type bond. Is that acceptable?
>Again thanks for addditional clarification.
>Once I find out what exactly it is, I'll be sure to report back.
>
>signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>"Wes Stewart" <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to
protect
> > you
> > > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
> > tool.
> > > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
> would
> > > just trip the breaker.)
> >
> > Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the
problem
> > but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
> >
> It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
> than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
> simply unsafe rather than illegal.
Whaaaaat?
In all this discussion of ground & neutral, may I comment that, at least
here in USA, most places the code calls for the ground & neutral to be
bonded together @ the building load center or entry panel?
Considering the age of this saw, I would hazard a guess that the power cord
& plug are not original, and who knows what kind of a botch job was done by
whoever replaced/wired it?
I believe the best idea is to do as someone else suggested; buy a new 25'
extension cord, but in 14ga. not 16, and rewire. Chances are the on/off
switch only switches one side of the circuit, in which case you wire the
*hot*, or black wire to the switch, the *neutral*, or white wire to the
unswitched side, and the green to the frame. Now, if it pops the CB when you
turn it on or plug it in, take the motor out & have it checked.
The amount of money the OP wishes to spend is purely up to him, given how
useable the saw is if fixed.
--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is defective
> >internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I jumped past that in
my
> >original reply. However, adding a ground in no way presents a danger or
a
>
> So answer me this. If he adds this ground, and the motor frame is also
connected
> to the neutral (not at all uncommon in older motors), what will be the
> effect of this connection on the stove, dryer, and other metal appliances
> in the home which are grounded?
Nada. IF the ground carries current, it will not affect other grounded
equipment on the "line", as it will carry the current directly back to the
service panel, where, as I said before, the neutral & ground are bonded
together, so any ground current that makes it that far will rejoin the
neutral, which is also connected to the water pipes, building ground, and in
the case of the code here, where I am about to have a 200A 240V service
installed, will also be connected to a 6 or 8' 1/2" copper(coated) rod
driven into the ground.
I'll back up a *little* bit here. When I recommended rewiring with a 3 wire,
I did say that if it popped the breaker, to have the motor checked out. This
should only occur if there is some shorting from the hot to the frame
somewhere. Otherwise, the ground will protect from any slight leakage in the
motor windings(which has been suggested by others) causing the OP to be
shocked.
Codes went from 2 wire non-polarized to 2 wire polarized to prevent "hot"
chassis problems, then when people would replace polarized plugs with
non-polarized, or otherwise destroy this integrity, went to 3 wire grounded,
all to maintain safety.
IIRC, when I was working on computer installations & spec-ing them,
EVERYTHING had to have "hot", neutral(if needed, such as a 240V plus neutral
for 120 legs), and a ground wire. The reason given @ that time was that an
electrical system could have unbalanced load on the "legs" and end up with
slight current in the ground. Thus they insisted on a good ground wire, not
depending on metal conduit, to eliminate any "ground loop" interference.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:20:29 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:54:20 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
>
>We know all about American wiring - we've seen Edison's film of it
>electrocuting the elephant.
>
>And Volta, Faraday and Tesla were Americans ?
If they lived here, invented here, and patented here, um Yeah.
Why not?
----
- Nice perfume. Must you marinate in it? -
http://diversify.com Web Applications
Wes Stewart <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> writes:
>On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:43:46 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>|GerryG <[email protected]> writes:
>|
>|>There is nothing illegal or dangerous about connecting an earth ground to the
>|>frame, as he said below. However, a tool that discharges current through this
>|
>|Both you and he are incorrect. Grounding an appliance (tablesaw) which has a neutral frame
>|connection (advertent or inadvertent) will energize the ground throughout
>|the premises while the appliance (tablesaw) is on - a potentially fatal occurance
>|for someone else on the premises.
>
>
>Really funny. In another post you say:
>
>"In such a configuration, the frames of all other devices *which share
>the same ground path* (emphasis added) will be energized. I don't
>think you really want this.
>
>Now it's "throughout the premises."
Meant the former, mistyped the latter.
scott
I do not know if the owner of the saw has many shop tools but I would
suggest the purchase of a couple inexpensive items. An outlet fault
finder can be purchased for a very few dollars. It is worthwhile to
check your whole house and find how many plugs are incorrectly wired.
An inexpensive volt-ohmeter would help to determine the origin of the
unwanted voltage.
If this diagonstic approach is attractive, we can lay out a set of tests
that will isolate the problem. It will probably allow for an
inexpensive solution to the problem. It will certainly be instructive.
Dick
Sounds like you have a Van de Graaff generator. Electrons from the
belts are released and stored in the metal of your table saw. Probably
the best thing to do would be looking for a way to isolate this charge
dispersal.
"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one place
> it?
>
> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:49:27 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
|"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
|
|>For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is defective
|>internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I jumped past that in my
|>original reply. However, adding a ground in no way presents a danger or a
|
|So answer me this. If he adds this ground, and the motor frame is also connected
|to the neutral (not at all uncommon in older motors), what will be the
|effect of this connection on the stove, dryer, and other metal appliances
|in the home which are grounded?
We should ask you for the answer since it is your hypothetical. But
I'll take the bait and reel *you* in.
Let's assume for a moment that the neutral is indeed connected to the
motor frame. I'm not sure this is as prevalent as you and others
suggest, but I'll play along.
First the two-wire case:
If Murphy's Law is on holiday and the extraordinary happens and the
non-polarized plug is actually plugged in correctly, then the motor
frame is connected to Earth via the neutral (grounded conductor). The
neutral is a current-carrying conductor; therefore there will be a
voltage drop along its length.
Assume for example that this is a 20 A circuit wired with 12 AWG and
it is 100 feet to the service panel. (We'll ignore the few feet of
flex pigtail from the saw to receptacle) To keep the numbers easy,
let's also assume that the motor draws 10A @ 120VAC. (1.2KW or ~ 1.6
hp)
From the copper wire tables in any edition of "Reference Data For
Radio Engineers" we find that 100' of 12 AWG at 20 deg C has a
resistance of 0.1588 Ohm. Dusting off Ohm's law, we calculate that
the voltage drop along this length of wire is 10(A) * .1588(ohm) =
1.588 VAC.
Now if this is a hazardous voltage then I better go attach a ground
rod to my Tony Stewart model Mag-Lite flashlight, because it has not
one, but three, 1.5 V cells in it and it's orange besides.
When the motor isn't running, there is zero current in the wire, the
voltage drop is zero and the frame is effectively grounded via the
neutral. Does this meet current code, no. Is this a good thing, no;
but with the givens, it is *not* a shock hazard.
Now to your question. With everything as before, let's hook up the
three wire cord with "grounding conductor" (a terrible term as it is
too easily confused with "grounded conductor", hence my personal
penchant for calling it a "safety ground.")
Circuit wise, we now have two 12 AWG wires in parallel connected from
the motor frame back to the service panel. The resistance is half, as
is the voltage drop. And there is the benefit of redundancy in case
the neutral wire should open, which is one reason the safety ground is
now a code requirement. BTW, use of a GFI will expose this connection
in less than a heartbeat.
Now (absent a GFI) you want to know what happens to all of the other
appliances connected to this circuit branch. Note: I said *this*
branch; nothing happens to anything not connected to this branch.
Other loads don't give a rat's ass what is going on in the three wires
running to the table saw any more than they care what is going on in
your neighbor's house.
Other loads on *this* branch with metal frames or enclosures that are
grounded via the third conductor will be elevated above ground by some
factor. If they are downstream (further away from the service panel)
from the table saw, and don't have any fault currents of their own
they will be at the same potential as the saw, ~0.8 VAC in this
example. If they are upstream then they will be proportionally closer
to ground potential as they get closer to the panel.
BTW, do you realize that in recent memory, stoves and dryers had the
neutral tied to the frame and were "grounded" that way. And they
typically had unbalanced currents in the two hot legs since lights,
motors, etc were operated line-to-neutral. Thus, the chassis was
elevated above ground by the voltage drop in the neutral, miniscule as
it was. Did this worry you?
unfortunately he was an Englishman LOL
signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:20:29 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:54:20 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
> >
> > We know all about American wiring - we've seen Edison's film of it
> > electrocuting the elephant.
> >
> > And Volta, Faraday and Tesla were Americans ?
>
> I think a fellow named Ben Franklin did his kite experiment in 1752. I
> may be wrong, but I think this predates the 'lectrical contributions of
> the three you named.
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> "If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
> then you and I will still each have one apple.
> But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
> ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw
>
>
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 9/10/2004
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:34:27 GMT, "Troy Hall" <[email protected]>
wrote:
<snip>
>Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
>with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
>zap.
One response to this, in a different thread, brought up the possibility of
static discharge causing the "zap". The OP use of the term "frequently" implies
it isn't an "every time" occurrence which reinforces the idea of it being a
static discharge rather than a current leak.
To the OP: One way to make a determination on this point is to consider whether
it happens each time you touch the saw when the saw is running and whether it
will occur twice in quick succession. If so, it is probably current leakage and
is, or could develop into, a dangerous situation. Correction requires a repair
to either the saw's wiring harness or the internal wiring of the motor. Addition
of a ground wire will mask the problem but has the undesirable features
mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
If it zaps you once but immediately repeating the contact that yielded the first
zap is "zap free", then it is likely a build up of static charge and grounding
the frame of the saw will cure the problem. In that case, the source of the
static buildup likely to be as stated in the other thread - frictional buildup
from the rotating belts, a la Van de Graaff generator.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:22:45 GMT, "Troy Hall"
<[email protected]> wrote:
|Wes, thank you for this..
You're welcome.
|You've given me even more information to use. My
|saw has a gravity dual belt system also. I think the stand is a universal
|one even though it matches the color. Kinda a cream color. I was totally
|unaware that the saw dust could get into the motor and cause problems. I'll
|bet theres plenty after all these years.
Saw dust can be a source of leakage curent since it does contain
moisture. I'm only suggesting it as a *possible* cause, however.
[little snip]
|The face comment came from my son when night before last we moved the saw 6"
|to give better placement for the future router table and as he was leaning
|his face against the metal frame to level the legs he said "its giving me
|tiny shocks". He described it like a 9v dc battery does to your tongue.
Okay, this does raise the threat level. I had the impression that the
problem was only while the motor was running, and surely that isn't
the case here.
| The motor frame sits on a pivoting rod that then attaches to the saw
|framework. I'm not at all sure how I would bond this short of doing an RF
|braid type bond. Is that acceptable?
Yes.
Whatever you decide to do about the motor, you need to go to the
three-wire connection and I would *strongly* recommend that you add a
GFI receptacle to the circuit that feeds the saw as a second level of
protection.
|Again thanks for addditional clarification.
|Once I find out what exactly it is, I'll be sure to report back.
Okay.
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:58:31 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]>
criticized thus:
|Next to listening to Dan Rather, this is just about the stupidest thing I've
|heard all week. I'm guessing the OP has been shocked by static electricity
|in the past, so I think he knows the difference between that and an AC
|current. The only reason it's not that bad right now is that the hot isn't
|making a very good connection to the frame of the saw. Maybe one of these
|days, it will make a good connection. At that point, I don't want to have
|to rely on ground or a circuit breaker to protect me. If you think I'm
|getting my undies in a bunch, let's do a test. I'll hand you a steel bar
|connected to ground. You hold onto it and I'll connect it to 120. Sound
|like a good idea, genius? Here's a better idea. Find what's wrong with the
|motor now instead of trying to half-assed work around the symptoms.
My response was based on the facts in evidence. In a follow-up post
the OP said:
"I think its only when it is on and not always. It is VERY mild. Not
a 110 shock. Which is whats (sic) weird."
So if you guess that the op has been shocked by static discharge and
knows the difference between that and an AC current shock then we are
on the same page.
As to your dismissing the static discharge idea, here is what a belt
manufacturer says about it:
http://www.gates.com/facts/documents/Gf000046.pdf
Certainly it's possible that there is a fault from one or both sides
of the line to the frame of the motor, although a hard fault would be
delivering results much different from what the OP reports,
particularly when his face is in contact with the saw. (In this case:
face in contact with a running table saw, electrical shock would seem
to be the least of his worries)
It is equally possible that a build-up of conductive material (saw
dust) has been introduced into the cooling slots of the motor and this
explains leakage that comes and goes. No amount of motor rebuilding
will eliminate this eventuality; a safety ground will---well, make it
safe.
Even with motor rebuilding or replacement, a three-wire system is a
must, so why not convert to a three-wire system first, particularly
when the act of doing so will automatically repair of many of the
potential (no pun intended) sources of leakage.
I suppose the error in my previous post it was that it was based on
what *I* would do in this case, based on *my* experience. I had a
Craftsman saw, albeit not as old, and I remember the configuration:
rubber feet, open cooling slots in the motor, motor in the path of saw
dust discharge, loose motor mounting with gravity belt tensioning.
When I opened the motor to rewire, *I* would blow out the accumulated
debris, look for carbon tracks, make sure the motor frame and the saw
body were bonded together, etc. I can see that someone less
experienced might not understand the nuances of this. For this I
apologize.
Wes Stewart, retired EE
After more than 40 years of working with that stuff, I have an old habit that
I don't even think about: I always assume everything and anything is hot, and
ground it before grabbing, even if I've already checked with a meter sometime
earlier. It only takes a second and will pop a breaker or at least show a
spark. Come to think of it, an experience similar to what you described
started that habit.
GerryG
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:34:58 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>>
>I once was working in a new building and when I tried to connect a coax
>cable from one piece of electronice to another I got a nice 40A 120V arc
>right at my fingertips! It was plain luck I wasn't didn't take hold of the
>second piece of equipment and the coax connector at the same time! The
>fools who wired the building switched hot and neutral on SOME plugs and
>never checked their work, so I had gear at 120VAC above ground. Even so, I
>didn't get shocked when standing on the concrete floor and touching the hot
>gear.
>
>The surprise of that arc in my fingers won't be forgotten, although I was
>not shocked or burned at all.
>
>Wilson
Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to protect you
when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective tool.
Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it would
just trip the breaker.)
The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below, is to
toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
However,
1) Does the shock come when the saw is on or off?
2) Does reversing the plug change anything.
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:33:54 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I think a fellow named Ben Franklin did his kite experiment in 1752.
And a loyal subject of King George at the time !
Probably little effect, but the point is valid. Any other items on the same
branch would have some portion of their neutral return current shunted to the
ground path. You might not notice it, although a GFI would. Items on other
branches should not be effected.
Perhaps I just haven't worked with old enough equipment, but would find it odd
if the motor frame itself was connected to the neutral, unless somebody
removed a polarized plug (which is, of course, possible).
I still suspect, instead, that he's dealing with a leakage current. While
grounding the frame is not the proper solution (not by itself), it at least
keeps him alive long enough to post his results.
GerryG
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:49:27 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is defective
>>internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I jumped past that in my
>>original reply. However, adding a ground in no way presents a danger or a
>
>So answer me this. If he adds this ground, and the motor frame is also connected
>to the neutral (not at all uncommon in older motors), what will be the
>effect of this connection on the stove, dryer, and other metal appliances
>in the home which are grounded?
>
>scott
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:43:46 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
|GerryG <[email protected]> writes:
|
|>There is nothing illegal or dangerous about connecting an earth ground to the
|>frame, as he said below. However, a tool that discharges current through this
|
|Both you and he are incorrect. Grounding an appliance (tablesaw) which has a neutral frame
|connection (advertent or inadvertent) will energize the ground throughout
|the premises while the appliance (tablesaw) is on - a potentially fatal occurance
|for someone else on the premises.
Really funny. In another post you say:
"In such a configuration, the frames of all other devices *which share
the same ground path* (emphasis added) will be energized. I don't
think you really want this.
Now it's "throughout the premises."
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:20:29 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:54:20 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
>
> We know all about American wiring - we've seen Edison's film of it
> electrocuting the elephant.
>
> And Volta, Faraday and Tesla were Americans ?
I think a fellow named Ben Franklin did his kite experiment in 1752. I
may be wrong, but I think this predates the 'lectrical contributions of
the three you named.
-Doug
--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:17:18 -0400, Nova wrote:
> Franklin's "experiment" showed that lightening and electricity were one in
> the same. He did not "discover" electricity.
I didn't say he did discover electricity, only that his experiment with
the kite and storing "lightening" in his bottle predated the work of the
fellows Andy mentioned.
In fact, Ben couldn't be officially considered a "US/Merican" citizen in
1752, but more properly a Brit.
I spoze also many neandertals (OBWW) discovered their hair standing on end
long before the Greeks got their zap off a doorknob or cat or whatever.
-Doug
--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Adding a ground would be illegal and dangerous. A ground is to protect
> you
> > when you don't know there is a problem, not to let you use a defective
> tool.
> > Don't do it. (It won't work anyhow if the short is from the hot; it
would
> > just trip the breaker.)
>
> Illegal? Since when? I agree that it is appropriate to find the problem
> but since when is it illegal to add a ground to a device?
>
It is illegal to establish wiring so that current is sent to ground rather
than to the neutral. If the machine had been made that way, it would be
simply unsafe rather than illegal.
> >
> > The short answer, combined with your question about the fence below, is
to
> > toss the saw; it just isn't worth it.
>
> That is just plane bad advice.
I can't comment on that, but it is plain good advice.
Bear in mind he also said his fence was unusable. How much money do you
want to put into a 62 year old 9.5" table saw?
>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>For the record, let me say that I agree that if the motor is defective
>internally then it should be repaired or replaced. I jumped past that in my
>original reply. However, adding a ground in no way presents a danger or a
So answer me this. If he adds this ground, and the motor frame is also connected
to the neutral (not at all uncommon in older motors), what will be the
effect of this connection on the stove, dryer, and other metal appliances
in the home which are grounded?
scott
>stupid move to the OP. What do you suppose we use grounds for if not for
>the type of situation being discussed here? If you don't want to rely on a
>ground or a circuit breaker to help protect you from leakage from hot, then
>perhaps you should stay away from electrical appliances since that is the
>very reason for grounds.
>--
>
>-Mike-
>[email protected]
>
>
Troy Hall wrote:
>> yes I do have those tools as I have experience in home wiring and
>> hold a degree in electronics. Like I said I'll be checking this out
>> and reporting back. Was going to do it today but was having too
>> hard of a time breathing to spend it bending like a pretzel
>>
[snip]
Nice thread topic name. I smile everytime I see it.
Josie
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:24:20 GMT, "Troy Hall"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>How many have a GOOD RF grade ground in their dust collection network? You
>do realise that is can instaneously combust don't you? Happens every day.
You were doing fine until you got to that. Happens every day? Cite ONE
verifiable instance where this has occured in a home workshop...ever.
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> No, US practice for wiring electric motors _is_ voodoo.
>
> Europe is scared of your machinery wiring.
>
Hey - stop it. Remember, we invented 'lectricity.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Wes Stewart <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> writes:
>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:20:02 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>|
>|"Troy Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>|news:[email protected]...
>|> I have an old Craftsman table saw that has an external motor. It runs the
>|> blade via two belts. it only has a 2 wire non-polarized plug. If I
>|> remember right its circa 1942. Anyway, frequently when we lean against it
>|> with a sensitive part of the body, ( face, belly, leg ) we'll get a slight
>|> zap. Can a ground wire be added to this to stop it? Where would one
>|place
>|> it?
>|>
>|> signature Troy & Michelle Hall Cogy Farm Clay Center, Kansas 67432
>|>
>|
>|Yes. Go out and buy a length of 16ga cord with three conductors - usually
>|Black, White and Green. Wire the black and white wires into your motor the
>|way that it is currently wired and secure the green to the metal chassis of
>|the motor. You can usually find a screw to slip the ground wire under and
>|then tighten the screw back down. Wire a three prong plug to the other end
>|and you're off. Maybe cheaper and easier is to buy a 25 foot extension cord
>|and cut it down to the length you want. Wire the cut end to your saw and
>|your plug end will be already wired in a nice factory molded plug.
>|
>|You can also run a separate ground from the motor to a ground in the
>|building, but that tends to get pulled loose or otherwise damaged. I like
>|the first way better.
>
>Mike is right on, especially about buying an extension cord and
>cutting it to length. You buy a "pigtail" and it costs big bucks.
>Buy a 10' extension cord on sale for a few bucks.
>
>As to the others bunching up their panties about *danger*, it's very
>possible the shock is from nothing more than static build up. If it's
>actually leakage in the motor, then the ground will at best make it
>safe and at worst will pop a breaker, in which case the OP can take
>the motor to a shop for troubleshooting.
>
If he does what you two suggest, there is a real good chance he'll
kill someone.
Note that if he wires the ground to the motor frame on an
old enough motor (and 1940's is old enough), he'll quite possibly
be connecting the grounded and grounding conductors together at
the equipment, which will feed current into the grounding conductor.
The current in the grounding conductor could easily fry his SO
while his SO is frying his eggs.
don't do it.
scott
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
> What do you suppose we use grounds for if not for the type of
> situation being discussed here?
To provide a margin of safety when accidents occur. If it's
intentional, it's not an accident, it's stupidity.
> If you don't want to rely on a ground or a circuit breaker to help
> protect you from leakage from hot,
Grounds protect you from accidental leaks, not intentional ones.
Plus, if your saw is in a basement or garage, it should have a GFI
anyway, and using a ground that way would trip the GFI.
> then perhaps you should stay away from electrical appliances since
> that is the very reason for grounds.
No, a ground is not appropriate for bypassing a KNOWN wiring fault to
obviate the need for repairs. Grounds are a safety net, not a band
aid.